492 -- A Case-By-Case Basis -- with Elizabeth Harris

What do you do when your child (or your self) is sick but the doctors are getting it wrong?

Guest: Elizabeth Harris, whatswrongwithmychild.com

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Promo: And Then Suddenly
Disclaimer: Jason Myers
Art: Julia
Music: Jake Pierle -- https://jakepierle.bandcamp.com/

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Ignorance Was Bliss online: https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast

Sponsor: Bath By Bex (code CBDkate for 25% off)
Sponsor: Komuso Design (code bliss15 for 15% off)
Sponsor: Horrific Hope Film Festival 2024 (code bliss24 for 15% off submission)

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm Angela Santello, and I havea question for you. What's one moment
that turns your life upside down?I've been thinking about that and I think
it is when I discovered launching food. One moment that turned my life upside
down was self inflicted. The momentI had was really rather unexpected, essentially
being forced out of the military onmy podcast and then suddenly. I never

(00:25):
know how my guests are going toanswer that question. So if you like
conversations that take twists and turns andgo beyond the ordinary stories we tell about
big life moments, this show isfor you. Always impromptu, so you
are a renaissance man who's in themaking of who you're going to be.
Absolutely yeah, I like that funny. Do I have to keep my language

(00:46):
clean? No? No, no, I'll put an ex implicit on it.
Ever, good to go out,and honest, I couldn't have imagined
my life five seconds after that happened. Join me as I explore what really
happens after life changes in an instantat and then suddenly podcast dot com.
This podcast involves topics such as violence, sex, and mental illness. If

(01:06):
this might disturb you or those aroundyou, please reconsider it's okay. Privacy
and confidentiality have been protected with personalinformation and removed whenever possible. And if
you ever feel unsafe or suicidal,please call your local crisis center, emergency
services, or the national hotline.In the United States, the National Suicide
Prevention Hotline is eight hundred two seventhree eight two five five. Please take

(01:33):
care of yourselves. You matter.Hey, this is Kate. What do
you do when your child is sickor you are At what point do you
go to see the doctor? Atwhat point do you go to the er?

(01:57):
And if you're told you're not reallysick or your kid is not really
sick, at what point do youseek a second or third or twelfth opinion?
When do you give up and justsay, well, I guess this
is what my life is now.These are questions that are really super relevant

(02:19):
to me just lately. Luckily,my kids are doing well, but I've
been bizarrely sick this year, andlike my body generally doesn't, it's not
built right somehow, so I tendtoward not only illnesses but weird ones.

(02:42):
And I've had to do a lotof advocating and seeking testing that doctors didn't
really want to give or begging tobe paid attention to and for me,
I don't spend a lot of timethinking about why about what exactly is wrong

(03:07):
with my body or why me?I don't I have the energy for it,
I don't have the brain cells forit, and I'm so focused on
getting treatment most of the time thatI really just haven't thought about what are

(03:28):
the roots of the problems. Thereare people, though, that do have
the brain power, the time,the focus to look at the roots.
And my guest today has some opinionson that, some of which, by

(03:49):
the way, I agree, andsome I don't, and some I'd never
thought about before. I just Ireally appreciate that there's somebody out there,
outside of the direct medical community,outside of a medical school with structured research
boundaries and that kind of thing,who's looking at all of this and trying

(04:12):
to figure it out, because itdoes matter. The roots of the problem
do matter, even if I'm notthe one looking at him. So my
guest name is Elizabeth Harris. Herwebsite is What's Wrong with My Child,
which gives you a sense of whereher journey started, and she tells her

(04:38):
story fine on her own, doesn'tneed a whole lot more introduction for me
than that, Are you sure youreally want to know? This is ignorance?
Was bliss? My name is ElizabethHarris, and I am a medical

(05:26):
consultant. Currently, I'm also aspot owner, mother of four grown children,
and I spend a lot of timehelping children and families who may struggle
with PANDAS and either be undiagnosed orhave a situation where they can't get the
medical treatment that they need. Solet's start right up front with what is

(05:50):
pandas. The interesting piece is thatit is much more common than we think
it is, but it is notrecognized, so it is very often unrecognized
in the pediatric population. PANNIS isan acronym for pediatric autoimmune eeropsychiatric disorders associated

(06:13):
with streptococcal infections. Now, asthat diagnoses or syndrome progressed in terms of
the research community, it was determinedthat PANDAS actually is a subset of something
called PANS, an acronym for pediatricacute neural psychiatric syndrome. And both of

(06:34):
these are very interesting, not onlyin terms of the fact that they're completely
debilitating for families and patients, butit's also interesting and that this is the
first syndrome or the first syndrome that'sbeen recognized. It actually associates directly and
affection with psychiatric symptoms, so there'sa direct correlation to that there now currently

(07:00):
sure about how long ago, butthey started to change the name of this
to the recognizing it as autoamun andcephalitis now. So it's kind of been
a progression in terms of like whenit was first recognized by doctor Sweeto to
now, because I think what happenedwas I mean, and I always was
curious as to how all of asudden antibodies would know that you turned eighteen

(07:21):
and it would stopped, because Ididn't see the common sense at that.
So I think they're making adjustments becausethey have seen so many you know,
adults relapse with this syndrome, andso it's not pediatric. It's probably never
been pediatric only, and it's probablybeen going on for as long as we

(07:45):
all, you know, beginning oftime, possibly just hasn't been recognized until
last fifty years or so. Well. And I mean, the whole concept
of the day you turn eighteen you'resuddenly an adult is bullshit to get technical,
it's just you know, it's it'sthat was just based on life expectancy

(08:07):
three hundred years ago, and weneeded some way of clarifying when could you
force someone to fight in the military. That's really where that that eighteen number
comes from. The brain doesn't stopdeveloping until you're twenty five or twenty six,
you know. And there are timeswhere I look at my husband and

(08:28):
I'm like, I'm not done.I'm not done yet. I don't know
about you, but I still gotstuff going on, and that's messed up.
So the whole differentiation between pediatric andadult disorders, it can it can
appear differently, but I think we'redoing ourselves a disservice when we spend our
time clearly separating, oh, that'sonly kids, that's only adults. And

(08:56):
then you know, if you've gottrauma history or you know, drug abuse
history, that also that kind ofputs a damper on the developmental process.
And so then you add those yearsand so it is. It is a
case by case basis. And Ialso just recognize the fact that you know,
I don't know how long they've knownabout rheumatic fever. I don't one
hundred years, two hundred years,No, a long time, I think,

(09:20):
but that was a clear, leadrecognized connection between a group as stripped
coquinfection and heart damage. I mean, and they've known for how long that
that is a result of molecular mimicry, that the auto antibodies or the antibodies
actually attacked the heart tissue. Idon't think they really quite understood the mechanism
of action as much. Maybe,but they were smart enough to know that,

(09:43):
hey, when this person gets groupA strip, their heart gets damage.
So we probably should put them onefrom palactic penicillin and not let them
get STRAP again. I mean,this is like the easy answer, right,
like just let's avoid strip, Butin these kids, it's not really
viewed that way, and it's justit was so confusing to me, you

(10:07):
know, in twenty thirteen, Imean, I'm sorry his first accutan side
it was twenty ten, I think, when I'm like, hey, this
is the thing. They already knowthis, like they already know about this.
This is like been around for awhile now, you just you know.
And I couldn't get anyone, anyoneto do it. And it was
the most frustrating experience of my entirelife, because what is wrong with preventing

(10:31):
something that can be that can causebrain damage or whatever kind of damage.
But they had I mean, andI'm not the type of person to just
give up at all. I meanhundreds of calls and you know, meetings
and going, and it was justlike, okay, why is this escaping
everyone? But it was so itwas one of your kids had it headwich

(10:56):
head, which well, you know, and at first it was my biological
son, because I have two biologicalchildren eight years apart, and two adopted
children. And interestingly enough, myadopted son it's only three months apart from
my biological son. So you know, later as I was trying to solve
this puzzle, having the adopted childrenwere very helpful because I clearly knew genetic

(11:20):
not genetic, you know. Buthere's the thing is, he had a
strep infection and I guess August orSeptember of twenty ten, maybe it's November.
And then we went in to thedoctor, got strup medication, I
guess whatever they give, and thentwo weeks later he is all of a
sudden, he had acute onset,which I guess was a gift. But

(11:45):
the first thing I noticed was hiseyes were kind of larger. He was
looking at me like a little differently, and I was like, well,
this frollog. And he starts walkingback and forth across the transition strip between
the kitchen and I was sitting atthe diner temples to work. He's working
back and forth, walk across thetransition to turn around and walk back,
walk back, I mean, andI was like, hey, hey,
what's going on? You know?And he just couldn't explain it. And

(12:09):
I didn't recognize OCD and didn't evenknow what it was. And then he
was Then he moved on to buttinghis shirt up and down, up and
down, up and down, andI was like, dude, you know,
as a mom, you're like,what are you doing right now?
Stop that? And then he's like, okay, you'll kind of shake it

(12:30):
off. And then he would go, and he's so cute, just a
little guy, you know, goand get his toothbrush and come down and
asked me to boil it. He'snever asked me to bullis toothbrush before,
and wants me to get it upto a certain degree. I'm like,
well, hey, how did youknow what degree to ask me to built
the toothbrush too? And b whydo you want me to do this?
And then his clothes they weren't dryenough or they it was just, you

(12:52):
know, it's a lot of stuff. And he'd looking before that, he'd
had some things, he'd had ADHDand the third grade, I guess.
And then I mean he also hadin the fourth grade issues with not really
being hungry. That was pretty it'sthe biggest thing to you. And we
even took him to the doctor overthat it's the adderall, or it's the
medication. Well, he takes themedication every day. Wouldn't he not be

(13:13):
hungry every day? Why is heonly not hungry for like a month,
won't eat at all, and thenhe's hungry again. He's still always taken
the adderall. This is what I'msaying. He's like these what seemed to
me to be common sense things justappeared to escape the doctors at the time.
And I don't know if that's alldoctors or maybe I wasn't saying it

(13:33):
right. But so anyway, thosewere the only things that he struggled with
before this happened. And so thatwas day one. The transition strip,
the buttoning up and down, thatgetting things under our blint shoes, brush.
By day two, it was ahuge tent. You know, I
know kids build tents. I mean, every kid builds a tent. But

(13:54):
this tent was like every single sheetin the whole house, off the beds,
all out of everything, and everysingle chair, this massive tent where
no light could come through. Andso he spent hours, I mean eight
hours. You go to onside andpull it off over to cover the hole,
and then that would make the holeoff over here. You go over,

(14:16):
and I mean it was just andI was like, oooh okay,
and I call the doctor because I'mlike, this is not normal. And
so I said, listen, yesterdaywas this, Today's this. He says,
Oh, he's probably just playing hideand go seek. I'm like,
he's he's not playing hang go sinknobody's And I just thought, you know,
I should have been more assertive atthat point in time, But what

(14:37):
do you do? You know,he obviously it's like whatever. So the
next day though, I called acall league of mine because by day three
he's crouched behind the chair in theliving room. I mean, he's bugs
are crawling all over him. He'sthinking, he's like he's doing this,
you know, his pupils are huge. He's crocked down and he's like literally
terrifying, Like it's like he doesn'teven recognize me. And I walk over

(14:58):
to him and he backs even furtherand then he I'm like okay, And
then he's crawling under the doorway becausehe thinks people are looking in and behind
the Christmas tree he's sitting, andso I call him my colleague and he
comes over and he's like, youneed to get him to the hospital,
like there's something really wrong because he'sknown him, like my colleague had known
him. So I called the doctor'soffice again. This is like the third

(15:20):
time, and finally it's a differentdoctor and he said it sounds like an
a cute onset of pandis take himto Vanderbilt emergency room. Like okay,
somebody sounds like they know what's goingon. So I call ex husband,
let him know taking him there.And you knew as a mom that's not
like in all this. You justthink, Okay, I'm gonna take him
there and they're gonna take care ofthis, like it was the fluke or

(15:43):
like it was something else. Butlittle did I know they knew nothing about
it or they you know, didn'tseem to, but I checked in.
I'm like, we're here for pandisI mean anyone else will say like,
But then once we get him backin the treatment or in the emergency room,
like all these doctors came in fromevery angle. They all had white
coats on. I didn't really knowthere was a difference, and a neurologist,

(16:04):
pediatrician and general generalists, psychiatrists.I didn't, you know, they're
all coming in at different times,so I'm speaking like one coherent, you
know story, but some were leaving, some are coming in. So I
can see now where there's some ofthem that didn't hear the whole story,
some that only heard certain pieces.So I was glad when neurology came in

(16:26):
and because it was a strip infectionthat I felt kicked it off. So
they came in. They did testyou know, that kept him for three
days. The only thing that theycould find was that he still had a
pneumonia. Why I didn't know hehad pneumonia in the first place. We
didn't find that out that he hadpneumonia at the hospital until three years later
when things got so bad or wentand got the full legal medical Arker and

(16:48):
went through it myself, and that'swhat I found out that he had pneumonia
and STRUP at the doctor's office too. So two weeks later after the nimnist,
he still has aneumonia, still hasDRUP, so be very important key.
So they discharge us and they sendus to cognitive behavioral therapy and put
him on zoloft and then might makesense to some people, but to me,

(17:10):
it made no sense at all.His anti dnaspe tigers were fourteen eighty,
which I didn't really know what antiDNA speed meant, so he still
had STRUP, still had pneumonia,and then anti DNA sp IS. I
now know it's group B stroup forsinuses, so I'm like, but at
the time I was spone. Imean, I'm an expert in cellulate not
infectious diseases, so I'm basically justtrying to follow suit and I don't want

(17:33):
to upset them, But it makesno sense to put someone that has a
STUP infection on zoloft. But wedid, and he didn't like it,
you know, it made him feeloff, and we took him to the
CBT therapy every week for like thirtysomething weeks. And it didn't work.
He never did return to baseline afterthat. He was like I had a

(17:55):
lot of tactile sensitivities. I mean, you'd start crying if his socks didn't
feel right. I mean it wasobviously a distress and it really made me
so upset as a mother, youknow. And then I'm taking him to
this therapist and he's acting out ofOCD stuff, and that's OCDS. We
don't realize it is like we putthese labels on him. Was like,

(18:15):
oh, they're a bully, orthey're this, or they're that. No,
that is OCD. It drives youto like you get fixated on something
and like you want your brother tocome out and play with you, but
he says no, Well it's anobsession. It becomes something that has to
happen, and so knock on thedoor. You know. But these things,
instead of being recognized for what theyare and treated, they end up

(18:36):
being some like moral failure of thepatient. And I could see it happening
and I didn't like it. Butyou know, I went along with this
lady and we did the OCD monstergame. I mean I did everything she
said, and like, is thisreally here or is this the OCD monster.
But it just didn't work because,like you would think, if that
was the right treatment, it wouldhave curtailed it, you know, and

(18:57):
it would have stayed level. Butin November of the next year, he
has another exacerbation, and this timehe's like, comes home from his dads
and he hasn't been eaten for afew weeks. He looks awfully thin,
and he tells me that he's hearingsongs in his head and they had just
been playing the guitar for three hours. I thought, well, you know,

(19:18):
but then a couple hours after that, he's sticking his stomach, really
sick, and you know, helooks gray in his eyes and and then
he throws up. I mean,it's really bad. And then after that
here comes the behavior changes, moreaggression, all this and this. So
I call this therapist and I said, I need you to come to the
house and see him, because I'mpaying a lot of money for this weekly

(19:41):
therapy. And you know, andthe funny thing is it's not funny.
But like later on, when Iget these records, I look and she's
like, miss miss Harris has boundaryissues. I'm like, I got boundary
issues because I want you to seewhat's really happening with my son. That's
a boundary issue. Now I'm justlike shaking my head. But she is
over and she sees it and observesit, and she says, I'm cutting

(20:04):
him off from therapy. He needsto go back to the doctor and get
more medical ruleouts. So I'm like, okay, we're going to get more
medical ruleouts. And so that's howit went. But I could never get
the medical ruleouts because the pediutrician didn'tagree with Pandis, but he didn't tell
me he didn't agree with pandas andhe wrote it out to the school when

(20:26):
I'm charged with truancy saying that he'streating my son for an illness related to
strup, which makes me think heknows what he's doing. And that's what
I've seen a lot with a lotof doctors. You know, they'll say
I know or I'm going to trythose you're kind of buzzwords to not go
that route. So I don't knowwhat to do. I mean, I'm
calling a lot of other doctors.It seems like I think a Facebook group

(20:49):
when I popped up about this time, it seems like they're having just his
heart of time. I go aroundand asked several pediutricians. Nobody seems to
know what it is, and I'mlike, where's the guy that's hold us?
It was pandis Well I would findout the next year he was in
the same practice and we were neverreferred to him to change patients. I
just don't I don't understand all theINDs and outs and the motives of why

(21:11):
you would it just send somebody tosomebody else if they knew about it.
But there we went for three years. He had no antibiotics, and he
continued to get infections. In fact, like when Nimey comes home with this
huge all over body rush accompanied withpavireal changes. Well, then he comes
home like, oh, the doctorsaid, it's rosiola. Rosiela is somebody

(21:33):
you get when you're like a littlebitty kid, like you're telling me his
full body of rosiola and this isOh. Was like, oh it's normal.
This is not normal. I mean, it's not normal. And I
don't know if this is the newnormal or what. But it was very,
very frustrating. And so when hewas in the eighth grade and so
you know, the pressure was onme because it's like, oh, it's

(21:56):
the parents. She's not, youknow, doing this, or that my
husband I had gotten a divorce andso it's that. So I did a
lot of research and got a programcalled Total Transformation. James Lehman, I
guess his name was. I gotthe program. I stopped consulting because I
was traveling globally consulting as a spayou know, business consultant helping people open

(22:17):
spas and you know, implement newmachines and devices, training their staff candidate,
I mean everywhere. And I stoppedand I was like, Okay,
that would be the easiest answer rightnow if it's my parading, because I
have control that. So we implementthis whole program, which is like how
kind of paraded anyway? But Iwent ahead and laminated the chore cards and
put the you know, I meanit was like very official reading that everything,

(22:42):
and it was like it would makesome difference and then sometimes it wouldn't.
But I was consistent, and youknow, I would just look at
him and when I was like,so you know this is right here.
We talked about this last week.What were you when you made this choice
to do this? Like, whatwere you you know, why did you

(23:02):
do that? You know, withoutsay the same thing over and over,
like I think there was a script, and you would he would just look
at me just I don't know.You could tell he just didn't know,
and it's like you're sitting there andyou're just like berating these kids. He
didn't know, and so you couldtell he was it a bad kid.
He always wanted to get his reward, and he always wanted his siblings that

(23:26):
be happy. I mean, it'sreally sad to think about it, you
know, because he has a greatheart. And so I guess it was
maybe May of his eighth grade year. I gone to the school just like
the parenting program said, every timethere was an incident, So the assistant
principal call me, I'm gonna comeand support you. I would draw whatever
I was doing. I would driveout there twenty miles or whatever, round

(23:47):
trip twenty seven times, and itwas just the same bizarre things. And
they were in clusters. So longstory short, in May of that year
they called me and said, he'sgot he's turned green, he's throwing up.
You need to come getting me sick. I get him home, and
that time it's like a whole otherlevel of psychis like it was. He

(24:07):
looked like a puma. I mean, his face was sunken in he even
there was a stark difference in hislook. He was a little grayish,
you know. And I said,he said, come on, we're going
to the plastic surgeon who was goingto get a sister. And I was
like, why don't think we cango because you got strap up and you
have to stay home together. Andhe looked at me and for the very

(24:30):
first time, and his whole wife, he said no. I mean he
never told me no. And Iwatched all those videos on odd and stuff
on that, and so I thought, because I said it progresses ended up
and I was like, well,I mean and he got very it was
just instant. And so the nextfew weeks were rough, and I thought

(24:52):
I kept called the parental support line. Of course, I emailed the doctor.
I asked if we could do ablood test for strup because he's done
some quick strip tests in the throatbut they're negative. But I'm like,
I've seen a line where we cando blood tests. No, that's not
necessary. I'm like I'll pay forit, Like why no, no?
And then the doctor fires me geta letter saying you won't follow the medical

(25:15):
advice I've given. I'm like,you have given me any what you're talking
about, but if it followed,and so he fires me. So now
I've got no doctor. We're inthe middle of this massive crisis, and
it's getting worse. And the moreI'm learning about panis is like I think
week four, because it's about thetighters. It's not necessarily the infectious agent

(25:40):
itself. It's about the immune responseto it. So like it's it's bad.
It's getting really bad. I've neverseen this before. I mean,
he's throwing chairs across the theater likefor no reason. It's and so I've
been told by the school principle thatthe next step was juvenile attention. Well
no, just juvenile court. AndI was also told that by the Prono

(26:02):
sport line. And I thought mycomment sense brain, I thought, well,
a judge with trump a doctor,surely the judge could write a court
order for the doctor to give hima BOOD test. That's what I'm thinking.
Call the officer, tell him what'sgoing on. He's like, yeah,
they have a lot of services forkids there. And so I'm thinking
it's like a daycare. It's ajail for kids, a jail. But

(26:26):
I had any idea what that was, I would have put him in a
car and gone to another country becausewhat we went through for the next several
years will blow anybody's mind. Imean, it's unfathomable that adults can do
this to children that are so muchweaker and vulnerable and need assistance. But
I learned and saw things that Ididn't even know existed. So we get

(26:52):
there and they make him spend thenight. It's been some new rule from
a private juvenile court, a privatecourt, which like anyway, you're making
him spend the night in jail becausehe said no to me, and I'm
telling you that he's got we justneed a test. Forced him to spend
the night. Of course at thattime, I didn't know it was a
jail cell that he's been at night. And then we go to court the

(27:14):
next morning and we tell the judge, Hey, it's um. You know
we needed this, this and thisasking him threatens him with foster care.
You better straight never you're gonna goto foster care. Wait and mom,
here's a list of rules that youneeded. It went in the house and
he's supposed to follow and if youviolate them, or if he violates him
and you don't tell us, you'regoing to jail. What just happened?

(27:36):
Like he was horrible. It wasunbelievably traumatic because then me, I'm a
rule follower, and still like twoweeks ago, when he did one of
the things on the list, Itook him because I was scared and I
didn't know it's a jail cell yetI didn't I don't want to go to
jail. But if I don't knowit was a jail cell, I wouldn't
have taken him. But I tookhim, and they kept him for three

(27:56):
days, for three days, likehe didn't literally nothing, Like he would
never take an adult. He wouldnever put an adult in jail for these
things. It wouldn't even crush yourmind. Yet my child, it's got
an issue, is in the cellby himself, without his mom, And
so it went down the hill fromthere. It was an egregious situation.

(28:18):
And I don't think it's just myson either now, And so that time
I picked him. If we wentto the hearing, they got DC and
then they start acting like he's acriminal. They've never once given any service.
It's just would he need They askedus what he needed, but I
said, I said, he needsa Tiger's test of blood draw. I
get the summary where they'd made thenote. It said miss Harris wants a

(28:41):
tiger test. I'm like that that'swhere we hurried the tiger test. So
I'm like, this is going fromby divorce quickly. And so then we
get sent to Vanderbilt to the Centersof Excellent Scroup, which I thought was
a good idea. There was apediatrician there and she said, let me
trying to put him in clinical trials. And I didn't want to be roode
and disrespectful, but of course Ihadn't, you know. And I was

(29:03):
like, yes, ma'am. Butthere was nobody that has any other ideas,
like what are these people doing?Like why are you sitting around a
table saying nothing, doing nothing,like just staring at me. I don't
know, you're supposed to know.There's things of you you don't know.
So then we got a shady freemanover here that like won't even look up
at me, and he's like hekind of well, next time, he's

(29:26):
so like okay, So like thenext time happened to be like the next
two days and what's Fandi's I gonnado? Put notes in his file about
him not having pandas why so anyway, it was a lot of strategy that
I had to implement, Like allmy sales training, all business training from
the years before is I learned thatI had to go up at like eleven
o'clock at night if I was goingto get the truth, I had to

(29:47):
get it from night nurse, andI would have to get her to print
it out because they would like atme during the day. It's like,
I'm like, what are his tigers? Oh, well they're not They're not
high, Oh okay, And I'dcome back at eleven o'clock that night and
she'd print him off and be likeextremely high, and I'm like, why
are you lying? Like they don'twant to give me an a biotics,
you know. And so at theend of the day he was held in

(30:11):
solitary confinement for five weeks. Hewas assaulted sectually by a forty four year
old mail guard from the Dominican Republic, and the cover up ensued. They
tried to take custody for me.They try to put him in a facility
for sex offenders, you know.And I don't know how much I'm supposed
to be talking about this or not, because we're supposed to be involved in
litigation. But to me, it'sbeen nothing but a big joke because I

(30:33):
don't I mean, it's just ourcountry's just a wreck. And I think
that the only way that we're gonnabe able to fix any of it is
people helping other people, because itturned into probation and now he had PTSD
on top of the PANDAS had madeeighteen thousand dollars for iv IG, which
worked temporarily. So I gotta tellyou, I just got so fed up

(30:55):
with it. I was like,I'm going on my own because they're blaming
me. This isn't in fact,And so they'd cut me off from everybody,
trying to say that I was abad mom, but yet they didn't
want to take my other kids.So I found another pandist doctor in Atlanta,
doctor trip Letty. I drove allnight to get down there and I
picked him, and I had towork through the crowd because all the parents

(31:18):
need help, and I begged himand cried. He said he would help,
and so he gave us sup liveorder thirty five thouars of blood.
And at this point in time,they had given my ex husband temporary custody
or whatever because they did something weirdwith the court order, and so I
got to visit him for like tenminutes, and I picked him up and
I was like, listen, littleguy. You know, moms are all

(31:40):
about saving their kids. It's amom's job. So we're gonna go to
Williams and Matter right now, we'regetting a blood drawn. I'm taking you
back, like, don't tell anybody. So we did, and the results
came in and I was like pouringthrough them because I have a biology degree
and a minor in chemistry. Mattersin sports medicine and ball means have been
like twenty years. So I waspulling out my dusty genetics books, pulling

(32:04):
out everything and just kind of like, Okay, let me just look at
this, and I'm trying to gothrough it and I understand it all,
and I'm like, the only thinghe had was the microplasma infection, and
he had really high anti ironan antibodiesthrough outibodies. So the Trivlati was like,
well, maybe it's Hashimoto's throditis andI was like, so you'll read

(32:24):
this book like for a a pagebook, and I'm like okay, So
I'm ready reading reading and in themeantime, I'm trying to keep Custie and
my kid and I'm like, knownothing about law, and this lunatic judge
over here is not even following therules that are on the internet for that
court. So I'm just like watchingdrop Dead Diva and lawn Order while I'm

(32:45):
reading a book on hashimodos and sahilitisit dragging a lot of why And I'm
just like, oh, why me? And so I build these big boards
and I start posting everything dat wiseand I'm like, okay, I'm starting
to put things together at the core, but not really. But I start
issuing subpoenas because dropped out deva ladysaid only here. I remember. She's

(33:08):
like, remember when you issue withsubpoena and there's like one side that wants
to hide the truth. And Iwas like, oh, that's great.
That means I'll issue them. Iissue twenty seven. And I accused that
hostile in Pennsylvania that kids for clashscandal, like I accused him of coming
down here and setting up shop whichis actually what happened. And so I

(33:30):
just was and so they let mehave it back. They just nonsued it,
and I thought at the time,oh, that's a miracle. But
when they non suit something, thatmeans they can pick it back up,
whether you know they do or not, which I didn't know. It's time.
So I give it back and I'vegot all this floodwork and I'm like,
now I'm getting interested in it becauseI'm like starting to grasp it.

(33:50):
My wheels are turned back on.So I figure out that I need his
full legal medical record. I needevery document surrounding him since birth. When
he was little, he had thishorrible pneumonia, double pneumonia. He's hospitalized
with that. So I get it. It's really hard to get it,
but I've got my binders. Youshould see my upstairs now, hundreds of
it's all like So I'm sitting thereand I'm just reading page by page and

(34:14):
I'm like I'm looking. I'm lookingup every word I don't know, and
I start to see, oh mygosh, like this thing that he had
with a baby as a baby reallyhas ever left. I see that,
like, okay, sneumonia, andthen our whole family had gotten definitely ill.
Oh three, and then I seethat like he gets he goes in

(34:35):
a lot like one card is it'salways his chest, blah blah blah.
But it just starts to slowly shiftfrom like these physical symptoms with one hundred
and finery fevers. It starts likeshifting to less physical and some neuropsych symptoms,
just a little bit at a time. Because like the first time I
mentioned it was like maybe second great, the teacher said, he's jumping around

(34:59):
a lot, there was still alot of physical. By the third grade,
he's like waving his hands in theair. So there's less physical,
more neural psych. And it's likethis trajectory, it's like this you know,
parallel line or this crossing point towhere eventually it becomes all neural psych.
And I'm just like going, ohmy gosh, it's just hitting me

(35:21):
left and right, like this iswhat they're talking about. And they talk
about the misdirect and immune response becausedoctor Shore Funny, of course, I
recorded all of our meetings and I'velistened to him over and over like I
did in school, and he hadmentioned, you know, it's a mistercted
immune response and when these kids havethis take place, it's like they feel
like they're the house is on fireand they can't get out. They feel

(35:42):
like it is the cyte of kindsthat are supposed to trigger the fever center,
but in up pointed towards the amygdalaor near the amygdala, which is
the rade center. So now it'slike starting to all and then I start
thinking, well, and you know, you second get yourself or I do.
So I'm like, well, whatif I'm wrong? What if this?
So I set appointments by myself witheach of the specialists. I went

(36:07):
lung doctor, immunologist, E,and T. I can't remember how many
infectious disease, like all of them. And I took him to each one
of those and I didn't I triednot to say the word pandas and I
was just like, okay, sowhat's my co plasma and how do we
find that or what's this? Andyou know, I asked questions and we
did a breathing test and his lungswere fine and functional, So how do

(36:30):
you have a pneumonia? And youknow I have an these lung problems.
Then we went in the immunologist didanother full workup. He'd had one by
doctor SHIFFLETTI but I was thinking,well, he's a neurologist and kind of
a geneticence. He's not running ammunologists. Maybe he missed something, you know,
nothing wrong with his immune system,you know. And as I'm getting
all these reports back, I startedthinking, well, there was the hell's

(36:51):
an autoimmune disease anyway? This iswhat I'm thinking, because I'm like,
if there's nothing wrong with his immunesystem, and I've also been told that
most of these don't have true immunedysfunction, then what is it immune disease?
And I didn't set out to figurethat out, but it was just
something that started to become very perplexingbecause our immune systems should be fine.

(37:13):
I mean, it's pretty straightforward.They've been functioning for two thousand years.
Like you get an affection or anallergen or mold, or you're exposed to
something and your body elicits like thisinnate immune response and it's either like silly
on your nose, gets triggered themucus, you know, something in your
dut lining or and you you know, comes out you know, or and

(37:36):
you make anibodies and then you havealso the adaptive immunity, which is like
the response to an organism that yourbody store to get your ig ig M
for active infection and IgG. Solike the doctors are always looking at the
IgM, but the IgG can indicateschronic pneumonia, you know. And it's
so, I mean, it's sucha blessing now, Like even when you're

(37:59):
in these really hard times and allof a sudden, I have a SPA
and all these people were coming infrom group ones, like a professor of
immunology and immunology and you know,from Vanderbilt, and so I would get
to talk with him, like,so, is it possible that these doctors
don't understand that chronic pneumonia can listento IgG response and you know, elevated

(38:21):
IgG tatters can indicate chronic infection,and I mean she confirms it. You
know, most of them don't knowthat there's a lot of ideo secrecies in
immunology that your typical MD is notreally aware of. And so it was
just like I kept getting all thesethought formations, if you will, that
kept me going, and then atthe end of the day, I'm just
like, Okay, everything's rolled out. There's nothing left other than this Michael

(38:45):
plasma infection. Now I know thathe doesn't have the signs and symptoms of
michael plasma what they say online orall the stuff. But I took him
to one doctor and he pulled uphis little symptoms chart thing and he's like,
well, he doesn't have the symptomsof michael plasma. And I'm like,
hey, where are you saying that? Because he's reading from something that's
telling them what they are and he'slike the genie something from their electronic thing

(39:07):
and I without my research, andI'm like, well, look, here's
michael plasma encephalitis. Is that onthere? And he's like, well,
I don't see that. And thenit kind of started clicking with me that
they're all looking at this document collectivelyand they might not know about other things.
And so I thought, well,this is what it's going to be.
And in the meantime, my adoptedkids start be getting symptomatic, and

(39:30):
specifically my thirteen year old adopted daughter. At the time, she was the
sweetest, kindest, My oldest makeis played in the band Very Good Student,
like just and then suddenly she's slavingdoorsand saying she hates me. Now
I know that at thirteen, theydo flip a switch, but she's also

(39:51):
staying up all night I mean things. I'm like, what the world?
And then about a weekend of this, she comes down and she leans over
word and she's like, well,my ear hurts, and behind her ear
is this huge boil. And I'mlike, I would not believe this if
I wasn't seeing it for myself.So I decided to take her to the
doctor, and I didn't tell himabout the odd or anything, and I

(40:13):
just said, she hasn't boiled.Can we culture it? And hear some
antibiotics, and he wouldn't cultur it. I thought, well, I would
be helpful to know what was goingwith him, But he didn't cultric but
he did hear her antibiotics. Thena boil cleared up and she went back
to sweet, and so I waslike, oh my gosh, am I
really just like the only person seeingthis and I but I never questioned if

(40:36):
I was crazy or not, becauseI was seeing it as by the eyes.
Also, our dog Buzz that we'dgotten brand new in twenty fourteen when
he came to live with us.He had gotten really really sick, like
reverse sneezing all this stuff. AndI took him to the doggy doctor and
he didn't have any doggy diseases,but he put them on antibiotics and hydrocoda

(40:59):
the stuff his coughing. And afterthat, after he got better from the
physical, he started walking sideways,tearing up and down the hall, having
abdominal takes. And I just said, I'm not telling anybody this, I'm
just gonna catalog that. It's like, okay. So I'm like convinced that

(41:19):
this is micro plasma. So Igot to figure out a way to get
more information on it because I've beenprobably in the electronic records over Vandy Pede's
probably like labeled crazy. So Icall a researcher because I find there's one
online that's doing research on clamdianneumonia,which is also interesting for the name was
doctor Strange. And he picked upthe phone and I was like, listen,

(41:43):
hey, I'm doing a little researchon it. Interesting a little organisms,
specifically michael plasma pneumonia. What wasthe name of this organism? And
he says to me, goes,oh, he goes yeah, he goes
literally one guy in this whole countrythat studies that organism. I'm thinking,
don uh you know, he's likedoctor Nicholson, doctor Garth Nicholson. And

(42:06):
I'm like, I've gotta get you. I've got to give us the doctor
Nicholson. That's what I'm thinking.And so I go to his website.
I find his website is imade dotorg nicholick on a look on it,
and I'm just like downloading and readingall this men's research. And you know,
I did immediately believe it because Iwent to school thirty years ago and
I went to school when he orright after he had discovered the fossil of

(42:30):
the nature of the cellular membrane,and that was him, so I recognized
his name as a scientist. Plushe's like the most cited scientists ever,
I think. And I'm reading aboutall these syndromes and symptoms and diseases caused
by Michael Plisman ammonia. And I'mnot so sure if you've heard of this
or not, but it is agenetically modified version of Michael Plisman ammonia.

(42:53):
So as I'm reading it, ofcourse, I start crying. I'm crying
for like three days straight because it'sdawn on me that we're infected with a
bioweapon or a man made organism,and of course, immediately I'm thinking,
well, how are we going totreat it? And who's gonna know how
to treat it? That's my firstthought. Because I also had complex usual

(43:13):
pain syndrome, unlike you. Imean, I lost twenty five pounds in
three weeks. My hair was fallingout. I could have been my wrist.
I mean, everybody thought I hadcancer. The other half thought I
was a drugs I'm not on drugs. I don't have cancer. I don't
think, you know. And Iwas a wreck. But I was sick
and I'm reading and reading and I'mlike, oh my gosh, this is

(43:36):
like an infection, and I'm readingreally slow to understand it. But it
was the Department of Defense teamed upwith the Army pathologist. I think his
name was Ben Low, and Ido think he was one of those scientists
they had brought over after World WarTwo, if I remember correctly, to
work in the Army pathology job,and they had teamed up with the Texas

(43:57):
prison systems and they were researching ordeveloping something from what I understand, for
a rat. Now, I didfind, like I think of one Wikipedia
that we were doing that at thatpoint in time, developing weapons of mass
destruction, I guess, but Itried not to get too much into that

(44:20):
piece because I was just worried aboutus speaks of sick, and what I
put together, or what doctor Nicholsonhas said, was that this is where
I should cocktail. So they tookand spiced pieces of viral genome into the
genome of the micoplasma. Now there'sa lot of different species and genus of
micoplasma. So there's like microplasma fermenteds, which is used to be benign lived

(44:46):
in the soil four hundred and sixtyfour gene so it's pretty easy to manipulate.
But they took pieces of the virusthat HHV six virus ro ziola,
and they genetically spliced it in twothe genome of the michael plasma that was
ten to the sixth power, thentend to the seventh power. They took

(45:06):
part of EBV virus and spliced itin that's tend the seven power and then
tend to the tenth. They hadspliced in hive some of the proteins.
But get this, not only didthey do that, they made it heat
resistant, antibotic resistant, and didother pathogenic things to it. And I
guess from what I'm saying now,I'm guessing that might have been the first
gatun gata function that what it's calledgato. I don't know study that they

(45:31):
were so up in arms about withFauci, but you know when I saw
that it was Texas prison system.And I remember that point in time when
our whole family got so sick.I immediately called my brother in law because
we had let him come live withus and he was in a Texas rehab.
Let him come live with us intwo thousand and three, and I'm

(45:52):
telling you, like, within twoweeks, we had all had boils all
over us, nobody recognized, andwe were so sick, like my biology
goes on plursy and my little sweetpandas sun was, I mean it,
loops were dry out. It waslike people described the worst kind of COVID.
We couldn't move, probably nine totwelve days. And I asked him,

(46:15):
like, hey, did you getsick when you were down there?
Yeah, they were all sick.I was like, oh my gosh.
And then I continued to read andfound that dogs or animals get it from
their owners. And I was likehuh. So now I've got a positive
for my son, and I needa positive because I didn't want to just
dive into the treatment without knowing forsure. So I go to an ant

(46:37):
that's outside of the system that probablyhas any worked, just crazy, and
I E and T does a biopsyon my throat and it comes back positive
and the DELLA comes back positive.So once I have three positives, I'm
like, Okay, let's do this. But the treatment protocols like longer antibiotics
and how do we get on willyou ordered them from India and I took
the first ones. I was ataster bitches of mistake, but I'm like,

(47:00):
I gotta do something here. Youknow, we're all going to die.
And by the grace of God,I didn't know what I was doing,
but I used like my common senseand I would see things and think,
okay, well that's probably two Ihave a dose because there's probably ammonia.
I just knew a lot. Iknew a lot for microbiology, and
I just went that route and weall got way way better. And now

(47:22):
my daughter Phoenix about to graduate witha degree of physics that was bud.
As you saw earlier, he's healed. My son will always have the auto
NI seph lighted, so if hecatches group A group B Strepi's has the
antibodies so to keep him on properaccess. My complex regional pain syndrome completely
went away. I got strapped lastyear and it came back, and then

(47:45):
I went on antibotics and it gotbetter again, and then it's kind of
a miracle. It's kind of anawesome story. And so that's why I
do what I do and wrote thebook and try to tell people and help
people. There's some people that areagainst synibotics, so we can do suitables
scanning. But in the end,I mean, I was seeing a lot
of people improve dramatically with all kindsof diagnoses, because once you kind of

(48:07):
get the concept, it's more orless like it's not even really about the
diagnoses as much as it is whatorganism is it and figuring that out doing
the treatment. Well. I mean, I have a ton of questions and
responses and everything like that. Wecould talk, but I don't want to

(48:27):
cut you off too much. Butyou know, I shouldn't have to have
a doctorate in seven different forms andspecialties of medicine in order to get my
own health cared for, right,right? I mean, I agree one
hundred percent. And it's like,I guess we just have to take the
bull by the horns, because Imean, how many times have we gone

(48:52):
in and they don't know and thenyou ask them something and they look at
you like you're crazy. But it'swhen somebody has like all in these things
going on, it's almost like whyis not? And if you try to
go on an infectious disease, let'sjust say and even put it out there,
like maybe there's an treated infection insome of my tissues, like for

(49:12):
instance, maybe the ancrotising facite islike, you know, do we check
on the lymph nodes? I mean, is there any group based strepp left?
Like are we running any you knowlabs like that? I mean,
are we just doing a course ofpenicillin? Because I truly think that really
does help everyone? And then isanybody the house to carrier? Because if
I'm susceptful to it or very sensitiveto it, and little Johnny is a

(49:34):
carrier, it might not bother him, but it really bothers me. And
so it's like, have we treatedthe whole house? We treated the dogs?
Have we changed the cheese brushes out, you know, to where it's
clear like there's a protocol for that. And I don't understand why infectious disease
is you can get an a point, but they're like the next week,
but all these other ones it's likesix months to get and see it accard
and it's like, well, okay, so we are either not looking at

(49:59):
the route on purpose or we don'tknow. And so I really wanted to
know which wasn't because it's a lotharder for me to believe that little me
put that together and nobody else had. I mean, so I signed up
for a master's in Michael of medicine. It was a couple of years ago,
and I went back to school becauseI'm thinking, why are we having

(50:22):
to treat ourselves? Just look whatyou're thinking? Why? So I sign
up for a prerequisite and it's advertisedat a remedial genetics BIOUM. I can't
remember a couple of the things,and I was like, oh, goody,
you know, just a review.Sign up paid for the class.
Then to find out the textbook isBiochemistry of a Patient with Cancer. What

(50:46):
I didn't sign up for Biochemistry ofa Patient with Cancer? But that's what
I got. I don't I wasalready started and I thought, well,
I'll just do it anyway. Itwas so backwards. I mean, everything's
taught under the premise of Uncle Jeansand all these things, almost as if
they're not teaching the basic building blocksof the basic steps of like calls,

(51:08):
is the basic steps of you know, crub cycle, the electron transport system.
Because I can tell you for me, when I encountered this situation later
in life, I relied on thatbecause I learned that the microplasma cannot break
down proteins. So then I understoodwhy the sugars were so dangerous. You

(51:30):
know, I understood humo taxes inpart, and so then I was able
to understand this. But when I'mgoing into this school today, there is
no building blocks. It is this, is this and this and under this
influence. So that's why these medsand I mean, I'm here to tell
you when I went to school,we didn't learn meds like we learned the

(51:52):
science. But this is I've hadfifty percent of the test was a midicel
back for this and this and thisand the I mean, and I was
just like, I was so madI was like, I refuse to learn
these drugs because I shouldn't be ableto figure that out on my own when
I'm practicing or when I'm researching.But if you all forced me to say

(52:13):
this man is for this, thenI will never know that I could use
something else, Like if I learnedthe mechanism and I could try this and
it might work. And then whenit got later in the book, it's
like, and you know when somebodydevelops a vaccine, this is the vaccine
they would develop. It was almostlike a I mean I kind of considered
it a brainwashing of sorts. Imean, not like hypnotherapy, but you

(52:37):
have to it's really hard class.So I would go and learn all this,
take that test, and then immediatelyspend like the first two days of
my next week trying to unscrawl onmy brain and going back and just reviewing
the real science because I didn't wantto get all mixed up in my thinking.
And I just thought, how sideis this in the paper? Is

(53:00):
like write a paper on the fiveinfections that can cause cancer? And so
when everybody posted there's on the board, I mean, I get these kids
like twenty four or something. I'mthe problem child. I'm like, why
would you just use the same onesthat are in the chapter? Like our
job is to go out and research, so of course my paper is like

(53:22):
ten other infections. We already another ones in the book. We just
write it. But I get alow grade because I did. I said,
So hold up, man, Imean, I'm sure she hated me.
What you mean to say is we'resupposed to regarditate to you. What
this one man has decided are theLA five infections that leads to cancer.
We're supposed to paraphrases work so thatthe school. And so I get through

(53:46):
that class and then I go onand I'm like, I don't want to
do the school. So I emailthe dean whatever and I'm like, I
just skip all those other preliminary classesprerequisites. I just need to take infectious
disease. And he lets me andwe I drive to this school because I
want to make sure it's really aschool, and it was a schools style

(54:06):
on the teachers. We're gonna knowone. So I take this next class
and it's infectious disease. And whileit is challenging somewhat, the thing that
I found very upsetting this was nota shred of education regarding colinfections. There
was a lot of you know,syenecon cascades and interplay between the cascades,

(54:30):
but there was no instruction on oreven content like if you have this pathogen
and this pathogen. There was noinstruction on intracellular organisms and what can happen
with that once it gets into thetissues. There was no education on if
a child comes in with this,do you treat the family? No?

(54:51):
I mean, and I was justreading it like what in the world?
And then a huge section on raremolds from like like what is going on?
And there's only one section of microplasmaAnd so I finished that class and
I quit and I thought, wow, I mean, because we're all going
to have late infections. We seethat in COVID. You know that the

(55:15):
virus in culbination with the bacteria thatwe're already there makes them activate. And
so that's what chemotaxis is when youhave something in your body already, like
if you're a carry of group ASTRUP, or you do have a pathogen
extreme of strup beat in your nasopharyngeal region, or you are carrying intracellular
chlamydia or microplasma, pneumonia, andthen you get a virus, an external

(55:39):
from an external source. Your bacteriathat are in your cells flee from the
virus in the bloodstream because they're theweaker phythogen, if you will, And
so that's when you get flare ups, so the bacterial burrow deeper, spread
more, you know, at thosepoints in time. So a lot of

(55:59):
times I would notice that when allthese symptoms kicked up, it was because
it was a second convation or anallergic reaction to something, or barometric pressure
changes. And so it's all aboutthe root. And I mean a top
to somebody the other day when weinterviewed, like, well, what would
the order of operations be? Theorder of operations is to find out what

(56:22):
are the roots? And so Iwant to do that. You got to
run blood work for specific pathogens thatwe see the most common in these syndromes.
And I think angles ca spotalize thisactually a virus name that I believe
not pent on that, but ifI remember, we don't know for sure.
It is associated with a genetic specificgene sequence. But I don't think

(56:45):
it's a virus. They think it'sa genetic in nature rather than virulent nature.
Well, and that was the otherthing that I found was when a
virus or bacteria takes over and thiswas so surprising to me. When they
take over the host cell machinery,they actually like parasitize it and become part
of the DNA. But that doesnot mean that you can't unwind it.

(57:08):
And so a lot of times areoftentimes once the virus Arecteria has incorporated into
the DNA, I've learned that theywill tie it genetic, and it might
well be genetic and that it's mixedin with the genome. But then again
there's a possibility that it can beunwound. So that was something that I

(57:30):
was found very interesting. I mean, there's there's enough The reason I know
I haven't because there's enough people inmy family spread around, and so what
the problem is. People tend toassume if they hear, oh, autoimmune
genetic autoimmune disease, they tend toassume like, oh, well, then
I'll just find that gene and Idon't know if I have the thing.

(57:53):
And the answer to that is no, No, it's it's the specific gene
need it's HLAB twenty seven. Right, It's a very specific they've they've they've
marked it to that point. Thething is something like one in eight people
has it is positive for that.So running a genetic test for it,

(58:15):
all that's gonna do is freak outseven and eight people who don't have an
Kilosius spondylitis, you know. Andso you know, there's a certain degree
where it's like there needs to bebetter testing. There needs to be able
to research, but don't test andresearch just for the hell of it,

(58:36):
because sometimes you get positive results thathave no usable or helpful information. So
I decided to three of my kidsare biologically ours, and we adopted our
fourth, and I've just we decidedwe're not going to have our oldest three
kids genetically tested for HLAB twenty sevenunless they start showing symptoms, because I

(59:00):
don't want to freak come out right, and they've got enough on their plates.
And this was pre COVID world whenI was like, they've got enough
on other plates and not, youknow, And so we have it just
our youngest is adopted from a familythat we were we were acquainted with,
and they made bad decisions and hergrandmother has spinal much muscular atrophy, which

(59:30):
is another thing that another autoimmune slashgenetic disorder that in her case. I've
talked to a couple of specialists I'vetalked to, you know, and and
they've all basically said, like,again, you'll know if she has it,
you know, because it's one ofthere are certain disorders where the younger
you are when it manifests. Theworst of this is for prognosis. Yeah,

(59:53):
and so you'll know it, youknow, because she was three when
we adopted her, and they youwould already be aware. And so just
keep an eye on it, keepphysically, you know. We'll we'll,
we'll, we'll market in your chartand we'll we'll there's certain motility that we
check for and that sort of thing. Um, but that you could test

(01:00:15):
yourself right on into insanity. Soright, we can test that. We
can do that. But our suggestionis let your kids be kids and then
when they act up, make alot of noise. And I'm like,
I can do that, I cando that. I have I have one
more question for you. I could, I mean, we could, like

(01:00:35):
I said, talking all night,but I have one one question for you.
Did you get hit and if so, how often? With the Munchhausen
By proxy accusation one time, andit was really odd how it happened.
Did you even on court? Becausethey accused me of taking my sign of

(01:00:55):
Humani doctors. But then they turnedaround and hit me with a dependent neglect
petition saying I wasn't able to meethis needs. And I was like,
this is an oxymoron. I mean, which is it? And it was
it was not funny, but myexit he goes, yeah, it's MVP,
And so I drafted a petition.I was like, and if anybody's
thinking about bringing up anything about munchhoousands, then you need to refer to

(01:01:20):
the Cunningham panel that we had donethat shows it's positive. You know.
So it's like shutting them down.It's so hard to do. But yeah,
they did raise it one time.But you know, it's also important
to know where the origin of thatcame from. And I mean, that's
the whole protocol they have in you. And of course it's like, oh,
we're gonna take your kids first,we're gonna accuse you this, then

(01:01:40):
we're gonna accuse you this, thenwe're gonna label you this. If we
can't get and we saw a thing, you know, because and you know
they say, we don't want kidsin the system, but they do.
They want kids in the system.What are they want kids in the system
because they get half the money orwhatever. I didn't know any of that,
and so it's this whole separate thing, right. I just try to

(01:02:00):
stay focused on the menapal because Ican't hear anything about this over here.
But yes, absolutely, I mean, so you know, people who aren't
famliar Munchausen syndrome by proxy is it'sMunchausen syndrome by and large alone has kind
of been We look at it ashypochondria. That's sort of the simplest explanation

(01:02:20):
much symptom. Munchaus syndrome by proxyis when usually a mother deliberately makes a
child sick or fakes symptoms of achild's illness in order to get the attention
of Oh, you're so brave andstrong and you're so great. It's so
great that you're such a good motherwho's doing so much for your kid.

(01:02:45):
And I can tell you it suckswhen your kids sick. You know,
it sucks when your kids sick.And yes, I think it's important to
check that, just in the sameway that I think it's important that they
asked me, could my gi shoesbe psychological nature? Could they be anxiety?
Like ask close questions and then letit go because most of us don't

(01:03:08):
want our kids sick. No,And I think I said, if I
was gonna fake a disease, itcertainly wouldn't wouldn't be this one, this
complicated it. You know, itwould be like cancer, it would be
like something else. But this isa complicated syndrome, and nobody can even
understand it. I can understand it. And he's acting like, I don't

(01:03:30):
know while animals sometimes, but thenwhen he's not having an infection, he's
great. So it's like, Idon't know, you don't have to be
a pretty sick person to pick thatsyndrome as your fake disease, because so
you know, And that's where Iwas, And I don't know why they
let that go so easily, butthey did, probably because he got assaulted
about that. Maybe no, heI forgot assaulted. They trying to say

(01:03:54):
that, and I was like,really, said, now it's gonna be
on my fault that he gets assaulted. You know, that's just a mess.
And my only advices get in thereearly, Like you're talking about like
the minute you see something. Becauseours wasn't acute onset and it was easy
to put it. It wasn't easyat all. Let me rephrase that.

(01:04:14):
It was you know, obvious onceI got to the answer. But unfortunately,
there's a lot of cases out there, and a lot of people that
just kind of don't feel good orthey just kind of struggle with this or
that. Are the kids that arekind of you know, but honestly,
they could get so much better ifintervention was done and they were tested.
And I think, you know,we ended up putting one. It's like

(01:04:34):
Andrew Medications, which I was unawarethat they actually suppressed the immune system.
So they put a lid on theimmune system so that they can't cause the
midsdirected immune response that results in thesech symptoms, but they don't treat the
infection. So I mean, myquestions started to become like, well,
what about this person's wife when theyget married, You're just leaving them infected

(01:04:58):
and then they're gonna infect her andwhat if she he is carrying something like
this is a big mess. Andthen I read a pediatric journal I guess
it was last year or something.Just for fun, I guess, and
she said, well, if youhave a child with michael plasma and also
elevated liver enzymes, don't order testingbecause it's too expensive and it's benign.

(01:05:18):
Hold up, So you're saying thatyou're just letting a lot of kids walk
around infected because why because it's expensive. It's expensive, and I think a
lot of people have it by now, you know. But the COVID I
said, Mom, there's round two. Here's round two. So the bottom

(01:05:41):
line is, I think the treatmentdepends on how so the symptoms are.
And if you're really really sick andyou have multiple we call Panda's alphabet soup,
like it's not really possible for akid to have OCD adhd ODD like
all these things. It's not makingany sense. So if they have out
of that soup, and if they'reextreme, you know, we'll we'll usually

(01:06:03):
treat for like a year or soand then assays the family to make sure
and educating them because it's really allabout education because sometimes if they graduate and
they go off to school away fromthe family, then their immune system can
find it off. But then whenthey come home with Christmas or they come
home for the summer, their symptomsmight flare up again. So it's I

(01:06:25):
mean, it's it's tricky trend toassays to each patient what they need,
you know, to determine what thetreatment is. So I don't know how
much of what attacks me is geneticand how much of what attacks me is

(01:06:54):
viral or biological bacterial, Like Ithink, I spend a lot of time
in a okay, but what arewe going to do about it? Mindset?
And that was always me, youknow, when I was working doing
forensic psych or even before that,when I was doing internships for my doctorate

(01:07:17):
and that kind of thing. Ididn't care about nature versus nurture. I
cared about okay, but what arewe going to do with it now?
And I think that there's an importantplace for that in the world. But
I also think that there's an importantplace in the world for Yeah, but

(01:07:40):
nature versus nurture, or genetic versusbiologic exterior source treatment early versus waiting too
long, things like that, LikeI feel like there's space that all of
this stuff needs to be looked at. So Elizabeth, thank you so much

(01:08:02):
for coming and talking with me.Like I said, we could have kept
talking all night, Like I justwanted to kind of get out of your
way and let you tell your story. But I got stuff I could throw
back at you sometimes, So ifyou ever want to come back and play,
please let me know. Thank youguys for listening. I hope I

(01:08:24):
didn't create a ton of hypochondria andfear out there in the world with this
episode. But at the same time, you know, sickness is a pretty
relevant topic lately, and I feellike it needs attention. We need to

(01:08:45):
know where it comes from, andwe need to know what we're gonna do
about it, because it's a lot. It's all life has been a lot
lately, and COVID is not theonly way that people get sick, and
I feel like sometimes we're losing sightof that. So please take good care

(01:09:05):
of yourselves, whatever form that means, and please don't hesitate to get second
or third or seventh opinions if youfeel like you're not being listened to.
And I know it's hard. Iknow that when you're sick, one of
the hardest things to do is toadvocate for yourself. But it'sn't really necessary.

(01:09:32):
So just take care of you,okay, you matter. S