June 12, 2025 • 30 mins
James has an indepth discussion with Joe on the book and the real life surrounding the Amazon Bestselling Fiction book. Detroit is the backdrop! Black Trauma and tragedy is all over the pages. Family is everything.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Oh, I'll welcome to another edition of in Between the
Pages with James O. Junior. That's me James Jr.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And we're gonna go in between the pages of a
great book that I'm already gonna say it out loud.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I want a series. I want a series. I don't
care if.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's limited series or a regular show series are streaming
or somewhere, I'm saying it out loud. The book's called
Sins of Survivors. We're watching that's the book, me holding it.
But if you go to my page, I have a
book on my page. So you guys are listening on
a lot of my podcast listeners too, But I have
I have a person who's been heavily involved in this
(00:37):
and and I'm I guess you guys co wrote this together.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
So yeah, Blair presents the book. He's sort of actually
when when he describes it, he describes it as like
if you're looking at the book publishing world as if
it's the movie world. He's the executive producer, right, all
things flow through him. So he's got sort of an
unofficial imprint at HarperCollins. And and this is how that
came about. So I wrote the book Blair presented it
(01:02):
and that and that's where we're at. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So the guy you're listen you're listening to right now.
He's a screenwriter director who's two twenty five. I came
instead of word twenty thirteen? What kind of wording is that?
Twenty thirteen breakout indie feature Life Tracker screened that dozens
of film festivals and sci fi conventions before shooting on demand.
We were on demand, folks, we were out right on
That was great. I mean when you got on demand,
(01:25):
that was like, that was one of the things you
wanted to get to, right I want to get to
you because you're on cable. And then in twenty seventeen,
he has The Drama Club, which premiered at the Gramma
and Chinese Theater, and then it's on two B. So
you want to b and watch that if you want to.
His most recent project, called Viral, has written, produced by
him and as directed by and stars Blair Underwood.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You know that guy. He's on a few things.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
But we're here talking. I mean I already was talking
to him off camera. He's my new friend. Joe McLean,
Joe McLean, how you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
We go good time. The book.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
This book is called Sins of Survivors, a Carter Brothers novel,
and it's actually book one, folks, because I didn't know that,
because I got to advanced copy of the book because
I'm special, and I read it and at the end,
I'm like, I want more. So, thank you, Joe, were
getting more so? Congratulations.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Yeah, next summer book two?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh good, Next, Okay, I'm ready, and you have to
come back next summer to you have to make next
summer absolutely okay. One of the things I want to
ask you because the black experience, I don't It's it's
very varied and which I love. And so I knew
nothing about the whole Detroit and the black migration, Detroit,
(02:40):
Black Bottom Paradise.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I didn't know any of that stuff. I know Detroit
Pizza and I love it. In La. I'm gonna go
shout in LA's Ba's called Detown Pizzaia. I know the owner.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
He has two locations to Penging a Canyon Mall and
West Hollywood Sky And I'm telling you, Joe, the pizza
is delictien.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
I'm gonna check that out for sure. That's right in
my hood.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, Sam Monica Boulevard, So right before he gets lost
Aiata again, I'm gonna give all the shit. He's a
great guy. Depends it like the pepperoni. It's it's it's
just Detroy Pizza is the bomb amazing. Yeah, I love
it so. By the way, so back to the real story.
I didn't really really realize some of the other stories
that happened in the North. My fantism was South and
the East. I know those stories.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, so, folks, this book gives you another tale. Even
though it's fiction, it's historical fiction.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, so tell us about that part of the book
that this is because right now it's number thirty six
on Amazon charts, number thirty six of Black and African
historical fiction.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, listen, I hate to give it a qualifier, but
that's all black historical fiction.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
If you do.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Just new releases were number one or number two right now.
So it feels feels pretty good. No, listen, I think
this this is I actually love that you said that
that you were unfamiliar with that. I mean, listen, it's
a tragedy that you're unfamiliar with that neighborhood to try
to write. But that's that's sort of the reason for
the book, right, And I think the reason one of
the one of the main things that got Blair and
(04:08):
I working on this project together was when we met
on a fully separate, you know, different project. He had
read a sample that I wrote. I had been hired
to write a teleplay about black Bottom, Detroit, all right,
and he he pulled me aside, and and you know,
very blunt was just like, listen. He had done a
play called Paradise Blue, which is which deals with the
(04:31):
same same place, and he had never heard of black
Bottom before he did the play. So he said, listen,
I don't know a lot of black folks that know
anything about this, So why does some white boy in
Hollywood know anything about it? Yeah, very blunt, And and
the truth is that I was hired to write it.
I got hired to write a teleplay, and then I
dove in. And my where I come in is like
(04:53):
I'm a I'm a historian. I am just I'm madly
in love with history, and I believe so strongly that
if we don't know our history, we're gonna repeat that history,
you know, and we don't want to do that.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
But but Black Bottom, you know, if.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Talking about the history of this town is insane to me,
because it's the it's kind of the town that lost
the fight. If it was still around, it would easily
rival South Side of Chicago, Harlem, Detroit, Atlanta. It would
it would rival those cities because it was doing some
incredible things. In fact, it was the first, as far
(05:32):
as I know, first anywhere in the country where like,
for example, if you go to the Cotton Club in
New York City at the same time is that my
book takes place in nineteen thirty seven, you would go
to see black music and before two am they would
all look like me, and after two am the audience
would all look like you because you were not allowed
to sit in the same audience together. But in Detroit
(05:54):
they were so or in black Bottom they were so
it was it wasn't wasn't gigantic. There was a couple
of bigger theaters, but really a lot of little jazz clubs, right,
but they were getting all the greatest jazz musicians of
of the day, the Fats Wallers and the Billie Hollidays
and the Ella FitzGeralds. They were coming there because Blackbottom
was given them an experience that no place else in
(06:16):
America could give them. And because of that, all this
incredible music is just sort of in the roots in Detroit.
Fast forward just a decade or two and we got
Motown right like Detroit has shaped us. In fact, you
look at Smokey Robinson and uh uh the Supremes, they're
(06:36):
they're from blackbott like they were. They grew up in
the in the projects in Blackbottom Detroit project.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
That's right. They said they were in the Brewster projects.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Also, yeah, so I just love it. And then of
course they knock it down. They knocked this whole neighborhood down,
you know, for urban renewal, right in the guise of
of forward progress, which we all know is shit. But
they knocked it down to build the free the national
(07:06):
freeway system, you know. So it's right now today it
is the it's Highway three seventy five running right through Detroit.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
God see, I'm I'm like, I'm like the books can
now want some lot all that. I'm like, yeah, like,
I'm all to that. I like that stuff because what
can we call Here's the thing, because we know this
is not without making any there's no propaganda and we
know this happens in just in history. People erase history,
they don't talk about it, so it gets kind of
put somewhere until someone who remembers something it comes out.
(07:38):
I have a great grandfather who was a wrestler, but
because he was Muslim in the nineteen hundreds, he was
big over and overseas, they wrote them out of history books.
He is recently, indeed, he's back in the It was
a really emotional thing for a couple of years ago.
But I just know that, so this stuff must have
been just swept under the rug. Right, How did when
you were doing the research, how did you find out
(07:59):
this up?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And how you find it?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I mean it's there, It's like it's not hiding, right,
But people just people are just they're busy. People have
their lives, people have there's so many Look at all
the different kinds of media just hitting us from every
direction these days. You know, So once I knew this
place existed, you go to Detroit. Detroit ters know about it, right,
and they're passionate about it. In fact, there is an
(08:22):
entire resurgence now that freeway that knocked black bottom down.
They are going to fill it in and they are
going to do something different now, and now the people
that live in that area of Detroit are like making
sure the whole city knows we need to like repurpose
this land for its original use, which was for the
black community of Detroit.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
You know. But listen.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I also I got to tell you, I listen. I
love the history. I could talk about the history all
day long. But this is not a history book, right.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
It is not a textbook.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
And so I believe very much in a sort of
Harry Poppin's style of storytelling, which is a spoonful of
sugar to help the medicine go down. In this case,
the medicine is very much what we're talking about now.
It's the destruction of Black Bottom and the brilliance that
came out of that community and the tragedy that overtook it.
But the sugar that makes that pill go down is crime,
(09:19):
family and murder and lust and forbidden love and some
really really fun stuff to to what your appetite in
the novel.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I'm not just I just wanted to way to get
people because my I know, my fan base likes to
hear this kind of stuff. They'll be like, oh my god,
so that they will come to you trip book because
they're like, oh, I mean, but he's right, it's historical fiction.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
That's a whole separate genre. Like it's not that he's
telling you. It's not.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
It's not text working at all. Right, it's a great
drama and we have these two brothers, Jasper and Ben.
Is a whole thing going on there. And it's not
just crime. It's like there's it's about family. It's about
crime and family. It's about choices, yes, about navigating life
during that time period of the nineteen hundred, said nineteen thirty.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So there's a lot going There's a lot going on
in your book.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
You know when when Blair talks about it, he says,
in the same way that you know, The Godfather is
certainly about the mob, it's certainly about being Italian, it's
certainly about the food. But really what it's about is family.
The Godfather is about family, and send the Survivors is
the same way that the Carter family it is.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
And I said, as I almost give away the ending,
I was just like, I mean, everybody's kind of driving on.
I'm like, one, no, I want to know this and
the name of this and so I guess we'll get
that book too. So I like, but as the book
ends with family, it goes back to the core couples,
I guess, canna say, and family it goes back to
(10:44):
your family. So I thought it didn't and I thought
it might end in some real tragic notes.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
I mean, I think there's some tragedy the book.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
You get that conclusion, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Reading
the book, I was like, Oh, it's gonna be really bad.
It's gonna be I was like, Oh, it's gonna be
really bad, Like, oh, am, I gonna be like screaming
or hollering or crying at the end. I folks had
to read the book. It's You're seriously gonna go through
the ups and downs in this book.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yeah, yeah, you know, And I'm really excited. And I'll
give you a little hint as to like what's coming
with the second book. But the idea here is and
you know, and I can tell your audience that there.
The book is written in three parts, and the first
chapter of each part tells the story about how these
two brothers, Ben and Jasper Carter came from tragedy in
the South outside of Birmingham, Alabama, and how they slowly
(11:35):
migrated with the Great Migration up to Detroit to find,
you know, a better live for themselves. The second book
does something similar but the opposite. So it's also written
in three three parts, but the first chapter of each
part in the second book goes into the future and
shows you how their ancestors, like what became of them
(11:56):
after what we know happened to the to the Parner
brothers in these books.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
So it's really.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Fun, okay, creating these characters.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So we're going between the pages and creating these characters.
How'd you begin to create Jasper and Band? You knew
as we brothers, like you do as we brothers.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
So you you gotta you've got to go with you know,
everything that you write as a writer, everything that you create,
has to have some piece of truth and and you
gotta you steal from your own life, right. So something
that I am very familiar with is that I have
a brother, I come from a family of two and parents.
You're a parent, I'm a parent. Something that we understand
(12:36):
is that there's this sometimes two kids or many kids.
Any children can grow up in the same household, with
the same parents, the same everything, and become entirely different
human being, right, and me and my brother are very
much that we went in We went in such different paths,
(12:57):
not not too much, not too similar from what happens
to Ben and Jasper. And so Jasper has the reason
his worldview is so different. He's the older of these
two brothers, is because he's sort of faded with taking
care of his younger siblings's. He's put into this fatherly
(13:17):
position where it's his responsibility to make sure they're fed
and they got closed on their back. He even puts
his younger brother Ben through college, right, well, just that alone.
Ben now has an education that his older brother doesn't have,
hasn't had to work with his hands nearly as hard
as his older brother had, has not had to suffer
in that way. There are other things, Listen, we all
(13:39):
have the things that we're dealing with. But when faced
with life in nineteen thirties Detroit, they have two different
ways of tackling the problems. One is books and ballots
and the other one is boos and bullets. And it's
an incredible journey these two are.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, that's exactly. You get that. You get that exactly,
You get the push and pull. And I have a brother.
So I'm we're very different. I mean we we we're
three years apart. You're right, but it's it's especially especially
if you're closer in age. We really got the parents.
You get the the parents at the same time. And
then there's one that when you're older and you're it's different,
but your parents you're around the same age. You the
(14:22):
parents that were the same age. It's weird how that happens.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You're like happened and really that whole argument about nature
versus nurture, right, like there's something, something's there, something's happening,
you know.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Okay, someone to ask you this question, but this is
just because it's a sick shit of course, Which brother
are you?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So I'm I'm most certainly Ben uh And we've been
talking about a lot of the pros and cons of this.
So Ben is the is the like the one that
gets put through college and is trying to take take
care of things through the system. Blair answers the question differently.
He always says that he's jasper and trying, and I
(15:02):
recognize is actually I'm Ben, But.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I wish I was jasper, okay, because there's so much.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
There's only so much you can do by following the
rules and staying in your lane. At some point you
have to burn it down and demand what you're owed.
And that's what Jasper does in this book.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Together they make a They actually make a good team,
even though they keep butting heads, right, But yeah, I
wish I wish I was I was. I'll tell you
a really funny story like that. We were just in
Detroit promoting the book, and they were doing the Detroit
Grand Prix and our hotel was right smack in the
middle of the racetrack, so it became hard to get
(15:42):
to and from the hotel. So Blair and I were
driving and we see this guy. We're like, we don't
know where do we turn? And we see a guy
coming up to us and we're like, is this a
security guard? Is this What are they going to tell
us to do? And I roll down the window and
the guy goes, you know, oh, are you guys here
for the Grand Prix? And Blair leans over goes, yeah,
we're here with Grand Prix. He goes right this way, sir,
and he just let us into wherever we.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Need to go.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And and immediately I was like, oh, that's how Jasper
handles this situation right, and Ben would have said.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Oh no, I'm sorry, we're just trying to get to
the hotel.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
He would have told us to turn around, go through this,
do that, you know, But no, Jasper won out.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
In that scenario.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Jasper, guys realized, I think I have become Jasper too.
I think I am ways.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
To get it, like I know, like god, I am,
Oh my goodness, now you just said that.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But the thing is reading the book. I can't sleek
bad in the brother's buttoned hands. I kept thinking, you
both went through the same trauma. And so you guys,
you saw your dad. I guess they should get that away.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, yeah, you can get that away. That's fine.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah he's lynched. Yeah, and this is like back in
my teen hundreds, and they see it.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, and because of something that the children do. Right,
So the children, I don't mind giving us away. It's
the first thing, right. So one of the kids, the
younger brother, Ben, drinks from a white water fountain and
some white people see it and the father, their father
(17:04):
gets in the way and reprimands his children on site,
tries to do right, but ultimately, the you know, the
racist South, and these racist people couldn't let it stand,
and so he's lynched. And because of this, the older
brother becomes the father figure. He has to take that
mantle up upon himself. But yeah, where were we going
(17:26):
with that?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Was kept saying that they had they had the same trauma. Yeah,
when they hit it, when they fought.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Right, and and I think that there's I think there's
the greatest conflict for me as a writer things that
what I enjoy the most is when the good guy,
for lack of better terms, right, the good guy and
the bad guy are actually after the same goal.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Right, So Ben and Jasper want the same thing.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Right, That's what I'm saying saying.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
But Ben feels very much like we've earned They've built
this like entire like they've they've built a dynasty for themselves.
They own all these businesses in Blackbottom, and he believes
so much like, look at what we've gained for ourselves.
We can now use the power that we have in
this the influence that we have in this community, and
we can bring everybody up with us. But Jasper goes right,
(18:15):
and if we fail, if we attempt to do that
and we fail, then our family, in the nuclear family,
our wives and our children. They will lose everything, and
he's not willing to give that up.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And neither are kind of wrong.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
No, neither are wrong, right.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's the thing about when I was reading the store,
I'm like, well, the way Jasper feels I feel it right,
and the activist part of me feels it. And that's
what I read, though, But I read his parts that
made me feel more vombable by actives days when I
was younger, And then he got fanned, going well, well, no,
we could do it this way. We find we have
the papers, we have the style, we can do this,
(18:53):
and you want to believe. You want to believe because
you're now at a better position. Things are better, right,
That covered my face. That's like your life these days,
because we think we've made these advances for anybody out there.
We think we make these advances. You think things are
then now it's better. If I just do this, it'll
(19:14):
fall in line. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Correct,
you're right, so, but jaff reside I understand, going well no,
because this, yeah, you'll try it that way, maybe it'll work,
but if it doesn't, we still lose, right, right, correct,
I don't make it we still lose, and just like
(19:35):
I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Lose, I don't want to lose.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
He's thought too.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Hard, and you can understand that because of the lot
he had to face in his life, Right, it was
just different what he had to go through.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, well, well you can almost say also, they're just
two sides of the same coin, or two sides of
the same person, basically, just it's just one but this way,
one went that way.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
But they're basically yeah, you know, listen, I think a
lot about these these conflicts. So like I can say,
on one, let's like reach out into the sci fi world. Right,
something that's certainly big in our our collective societal conscious
is the X men. Right, Magneto and Professor X both
(20:19):
want the same thing. They want equality for mutants, but
one decides the way to get it is basically kill
all the non mutants, and the other one says, well,
we're going to raise up the mutants and make them prove.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
That we're worthy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I think, now take it from sci fi all the
way into the real world. I think we could make
a similar comparison to doctor Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. Yes,
these are two people who want the exact same thing.
They want fairness, they want equality, they want equity. They
had two different ways of going about getting it. Yeah, right,
(20:55):
and neither one of them is wrong.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Actually, realize Keys started getting a little more, a little
more somewhere, I was gonna use it. Towards the end,
people start not liking him because he was getting a
little more conservative right.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Towards the end. I mean it's kind of like, so.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I'm saying that again, nobody was wrong, but they both
wanted the same end result, which is equality for all people,
for black people, especially for all people.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
For sure, I know. And that's that's why, that's why
I like.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
This book, because in fact, I love seeing families, whether
it's cousins, brothers, father, son, mother, daughter, whatever, have these
where the struggles from within. Yes, I mean there's external
stuff that's going on around them, but it all begins
to ends with you, right, it begins, it begins ends
with you. So it's like the struggles like, Okay, we
(21:44):
live in this time period, in this area of the world,
how do we navigate this navigated?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
How do we do it? That's that's that's the story.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Well, you know, and part of that family narrative in
this book, and it'll be through both books. Is this
this idea of sort of passing the baton on to
the next generation, right, So, like a big part of
this book is how their children are sort of coming
of age and what they're learning from their from their parents,
how they're taking over the businesses. I know that I'm
(22:14):
like this now. I've got a thirteen year old son.
But on one in one breath, I would give him anything, right,
I would do anything. I would die for him. On
the other hand, I'm not done yet, don't I'm not
ready to be finished. I still have more to give.
I want to keep living. Right, So when I think
that these brothers are dealing with the same thing, they
see that in one sort of breath, they are on
(22:36):
the way out.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
They are the older generation, and they've got to give
to the They got to like let the younger generation
take the reins. And that's hard. It's hard to let go.
It's hard to let go, even though I care immensely
for that younger generation.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And also I want to bring in the male aspect.
We're men, we have our egos, we have our we
want legacy. I think most of us man and one
have a legacy behind, left behind, like we're still here.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Don't try to put me in bed, don't put me
on the ground already. I'm still I got stuff. I
still got stuff to prove, I say, got stuff to show.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
And there is there is a storyline in the book
where so the oldest of the next generation is is
Ben's son, Charles, and he's sort of running the entire
he runs their nightclub, and and the second oldest is
Jasper's daughter named Sharon. And it's painted in such a
way that the reader, anybody who reads the book is
going to understand that Sharon is the one that is
(23:35):
like grinding. She's the one that is doing the work.
She is making it, she is getting it done. And Charles,
every time he takes a step, it's in a pile
of ship. So but even with that, everyone knows that
she still sort of gets she doesn't get all the
credit she deserves, right, She she's like saving the family
(23:55):
time and time again, like with what she's doing, and
Charles is just rewarded because he's a man.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
And that's it, right, that's it.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
And so it's it is that that the gender gap
there is intentional in this in this book.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I read the hell yeah, I got that in there.
But I just know, for us men, we have our
own egos. We have our own wegos to either getting
the way or keep us going. It's like somebody egos good.
Sometimes it keeps you, it keeps you going, because I'm
telling you, folks, as you get a little older, you
start feeling mortality, you start feeling what's going on, Like
where am I being behind? But for some of us,
we still have a lot we want to give. And
(24:28):
I was like, I don't write off old folks just yet.
And someone's got some stuff to go. And I had
a grandfather was into his eighties and was still doing stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I mean, I mean, it's I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Do think you make a very good point. If there
was no ego at all, nothing would ever get done
right literally. And you can say the same thing about
a lot of things that are maybe intrinsically thought of
as negative, like vanity. If there was no vanity, we
would all be walking around like slobs all day long, right,
we wouldn't care about how we dressed, how we looked,
how we smelled.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
It wouldn't mat right.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
But having a little bit of pride in yourself. A
little bit of vanity, a little bit of ego really
really drives the humanity.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Well, I mean come on, I mean, come on, Joe,
we and we're both in this business. I've been in
business for twenty year. I mean, I business two thousand
and seven, like officially in the business. And you have
to have some of those traits. Over confidence, even naivea
tay sometimes and all things for you.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
That's the point. I thing. We know, these are things.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Are kind of not that kind of bad whatever, be
a little pushing, aggressive, and some of that stuff really
does get you in the door or gets you opportunities sometimes.
And they're all considered bad traits. I'm not saying you
should overload yourself with these traits. We're just saying that sometimes,
you know, being a bitch sometimes does work.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yeah, there's a survival of the fittest sort of aspect
to that.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yes, in certain industry, not every interesting in a certain industry.
I mean, you're just gonna have to have some kind
of you know, even if it's just a little delusion.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Sometimes in this business it goes a long way.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Oh yeah, I listen.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I think I owe a lot to naivity because I
feel like in that sort of analogy of if I
knew then what I know now, I don't know that
I would be in this business at all. I would
definitely warn my younger self just don't just go do
something else right, It's it's too hard, it's too you
don't know when your next paycheck is coming, like you
(26:15):
and and so much of it is just luck, right,
like you have to have I do believe you have
to have the talent as a baseline, but so much
of it is dumb luck. Like I'm case in point.
I met Blair because I was at a holiday dinner
with someone that he went.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
To college with. That was it, That's the whole.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And and and we started working together. And somehow Blair
and I got together. And and like just if I
had if I wasn't at that dinner, I wouldn't have
met Blair. And now Blair and I've got the books.
We did a movie that's not out yet that stars
him and Sarah Silverman and Alfrey Woodard, a very very
dark drama which is fun for you know, Sarah is
not she's not usually in that that realm, but she's
(26:56):
great in it. I've got I've got a whole aspect
of my professional life now because I went to dinner
with one night.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
That's great. It's that's how I'm saying. I went up.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I went to the Magic Castle for my friends anniversary
one year and and I sat next to an assistant
director on House TV. It was a show in the
country at the time, and she's like, you should be
on television. I was like, I can get you on television.
And literally I sat next to her at the Magic
Castle and we yunkeed it up. I was on House
three weeks later.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Wow, well, James, one second, I'm just going to show
you this real quick it well quick shout out. You
just mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Oh my god, I asked.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
My son, thirteen years old, is currently the youngest official
magician member at the Magic Castle. He performs every Saturday
and Sunday. His name is Jackson MacLean. If you're there,
check him out, and performs every weekend.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Okay, my best friend. That's that's that. We folks. We
not planned that. We did not plan. We seriously did
not plan. I did not had no idea.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
I didn't know you were going to bring it up.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
This.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
We got to have you out. You gotta we're gonna
get you some tickets. You're gonna come on up, and
we love it.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I'd love you. I loved you. Oh my, that's so fun.
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
But again, like we said, business and life, this is
this is just But they always say that luck favors
are prepared. True, it was just a second ago. Just
always be ready, Just always doing your stuff. So when
opportunity come lands in your lap or comes your direction,
you're ready.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Always be ready.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
And and and it's funny because I'm doing that right now.
We've been doing a lot of press for the book
and people are asking me like like, this is the
moment when they're saying, well, well, what's next for you? Well,
if I don't have that thing lined up for what's next?
If I just said, oh well no, I'm just gonna
sort of see where the book goes, well, then.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
I'm gonna fall flat on my ass.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Right, No, I got it ready?
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Oh what's next, I'll be I'll delivered to you immediately,
you know.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
So yeah, you have to got to be prepared. This
book is amazing, folks. It's called Sins of Survivors and
Carter Brothers novel. It's behind me. I don't think it's
Li's behind me. You see that.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
You go to Amazon and get it, you go to
any bookstore and get it.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It's there.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Joe McLean and Blair Underwood, check it out, get it.
And I said again, I want to see it as
a series. I want to see I want to see
it as a TV series.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
From your mouth, I'm saying it out. I'm just manifested.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I'm saying out I could instantly your descriptions, how you write.
You also are a screenwriters. I guess that helps I
see it. I'm picturing these characters. I'm picturing the story.
I'm picturing actors.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Here.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I mean, listen, we're having conversations now, so like, I like, please,
I'm really hoping this, this hits your screen somewhere.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
It's an important and not just not just that, it's
an important story too. It's an important a different kind
of storytell. But I'm still part of our great country
that has some soil paths, and we love good family dramas.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
We need some. We need no good family, and there's
nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Joe McLean.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
If they want to follow you anywhere or talk to
you or anything, you have a website or or social Yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Can go to Gingerbeardfilms dot Com is my website and
you can see my socials there. I'm on I mostly
just look on Instagram. That's where I spend spend my
social media time.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I'll follow you. Uh, Ginger, we like Gingers like Ginger Gingers.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Well, it is funny. You can't even really tell anymore.
I'm more of a gray guy.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Now.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, I understand that one very much.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
But you know you heard from that one movie you
guys are black apparently, big joke about saying I love it.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Uh your fight to a cookout? Anyway, I know you are.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Joey cleans his place again, Senator virus. You see it
behind me. It's right, it's you. My head out the way,
it's right there. Brother's novel. Check it out. I'm James
pages Is on Facebook. I'm everywhere at James Jr. And
we'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Thank you,
Oh, I'll welcome to another edition of in Between the
Pages with James O. Junior. That's me James Jr.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And we're gonna go in between the pages of a
great book that I'm already gonna say it out loud.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I want a series. I want a series. I don't
care if.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's limited series or a regular show series are streaming
or somewhere, I'm saying it out loud. The book's called
Sins of Survivors. We're watching that's the book, me holding it.
But if you go to my page, I have a
book on my page. So you guys are listening on
a lot of my podcast listeners too, But I have
I have a person who's been heavily involved in this
(00:37):
and and I'm I guess you guys co wrote this together.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
So yeah, Blair presents the book. He's sort of actually
when when he describes it, he describes it as like
if you're looking at the book publishing world as if
it's the movie world. He's the executive producer, right, all
things flow through him. So he's got sort of an
unofficial imprint at HarperCollins. And and this is how that
came about. So I wrote the book Blair presented it
(01:02):
and that and that's where we're at. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So the guy you're listen you're listening to right now.
He's a screenwriter director who's two twenty five. I came
instead of word twenty thirteen? What kind of wording is that?
Twenty thirteen breakout indie feature Life Tracker screened that dozens
of film festivals and sci fi conventions before shooting on demand.
We were on demand, folks, we were out right on
That was great. I mean when you got on demand,
(01:25):
that was like, that was one of the things you
wanted to get to, right I want to get to
you because you're on cable. And then in twenty seventeen,
he has The Drama Club, which premiered at the Gramma
and Chinese Theater, and then it's on two B. So
you want to b and watch that if you want to.
His most recent project, called Viral, has written, produced by
him and as directed by and stars Blair Underwood.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You know that guy. He's on a few things.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
But we're here talking. I mean I already was talking
to him off camera. He's my new friend. Joe McLean,
Joe McLean, how you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
We go good time. The book.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
This book is called Sins of Survivors, a Carter Brothers novel,
and it's actually book one, folks, because I didn't know that,
because I got to advanced copy of the book because
I'm special, and I read it and at the end,
I'm like, I want more. So, thank you, Joe, were
getting more so? Congratulations.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Yeah, next summer book two?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh good, Next, Okay, I'm ready, and you have to
come back next summer to you have to make next
summer absolutely okay. One of the things I want to
ask you because the black experience, I don't It's it's
very varied and which I love. And so I knew
nothing about the whole Detroit and the black migration, Detroit,
(02:40):
Black Bottom Paradise.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I didn't know any of that stuff. I know Detroit
Pizza and I love it. In La. I'm gonna go
shout in LA's Ba's called Detown Pizzaia. I know the owner.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
He has two locations to Penging a Canyon Mall and
West Hollywood Sky And I'm telling you, Joe, the pizza
is delictien.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
I'm gonna check that out for sure. That's right in
my hood.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, Sam Monica Boulevard, So right before he gets lost
Aiata again, I'm gonna give all the shit. He's a
great guy. Depends it like the pepperoni. It's it's it's
just Detroy Pizza is the bomb amazing. Yeah, I love
it so. By the way, so back to the real story.
I didn't really really realize some of the other stories
that happened in the North. My fantism was South and
the East. I know those stories.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, so, folks, this book gives you another tale. Even
though it's fiction, it's historical fiction.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, so tell us about that part of the book
that this is because right now it's number thirty six
on Amazon charts, number thirty six of Black and African
historical fiction.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, listen, I hate to give it a qualifier, but
that's all black historical fiction.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
If you do.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Just new releases were number one or number two right now.
So it feels feels pretty good. No, listen, I think
this this is I actually love that you said that
that you were unfamiliar with that. I mean, listen, it's
a tragedy that you're unfamiliar with that neighborhood to try
to write. But that's that's sort of the reason for
the book, right, And I think the reason one of
the one of the main things that got Blair and
(04:08):
I working on this project together was when we met
on a fully separate, you know, different project. He had
read a sample that I wrote. I had been hired
to write a teleplay about black Bottom, Detroit, all right,
and he he pulled me aside, and and you know,
very blunt was just like, listen. He had done a
play called Paradise Blue, which is which deals with the
(04:31):
same same place, and he had never heard of black
Bottom before he did the play. So he said, listen,
I don't know a lot of black folks that know
anything about this, So why does some white boy in
Hollywood know anything about it? Yeah, very blunt, And and
the truth is that I was hired to write it.
I got hired to write a teleplay, and then I
dove in. And my where I come in is like
(04:53):
I'm a I'm a historian. I am just I'm madly
in love with history, and I believe so strongly that
if we don't know our history, we're gonna repeat that history,
you know, and we don't want to do that.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
But but Black Bottom, you know, if.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Talking about the history of this town is insane to me,
because it's the it's kind of the town that lost
the fight. If it was still around, it would easily
rival South Side of Chicago, Harlem, Detroit, Atlanta. It would
it would rival those cities because it was doing some
incredible things. In fact, it was the first, as far
(05:32):
as I know, first anywhere in the country where like,
for example, if you go to the Cotton Club in
New York City at the same time is that my
book takes place in nineteen thirty seven, you would go
to see black music and before two am they would
all look like me, and after two am the audience
would all look like you because you were not allowed
to sit in the same audience together. But in Detroit
(05:54):
they were so or in black Bottom they were so
it was it wasn't wasn't gigantic. There was a couple
of bigger theaters, but really a lot of little jazz clubs, right,
but they were getting all the greatest jazz musicians of
of the day, the Fats Wallers and the Billie Hollidays
and the Ella FitzGeralds. They were coming there because Blackbottom
was given them an experience that no place else in
(06:16):
America could give them. And because of that, all this
incredible music is just sort of in the roots in Detroit.
Fast forward just a decade or two and we got
Motown right like Detroit has shaped us. In fact, you
look at Smokey Robinson and uh uh the Supremes, they're
(06:36):
they're from blackbott like they were. They grew up in
the in the projects in Blackbottom Detroit project.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
That's right. They said they were in the Brewster projects.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Also, yeah, so I just love it. And then of
course they knock it down. They knocked this whole neighborhood down,
you know, for urban renewal, right in the guise of
of forward progress, which we all know is shit. But
they knocked it down to build the free the national
(07:06):
freeway system, you know. So it's right now today it
is the it's Highway three seventy five running right through Detroit.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
God see, I'm I'm like, I'm like the books can
now want some lot all that. I'm like, yeah, like,
I'm all to that. I like that stuff because what
can we call Here's the thing, because we know this
is not without making any there's no propaganda and we
know this happens in just in history. People erase history,
they don't talk about it, so it gets kind of
put somewhere until someone who remembers something it comes out.
(07:38):
I have a great grandfather who was a wrestler, but
because he was Muslim in the nineteen hundreds, he was
big over and overseas, they wrote them out of history books.
He is recently, indeed, he's back in the It was
a really emotional thing for a couple of years ago.
But I just know that, so this stuff must have
been just swept under the rug. Right, How did when
you were doing the research, how did you find out
(07:59):
this up?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And how you find it?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I mean it's there, It's like it's not hiding, right,
But people just people are just they're busy. People have
their lives, people have there's so many Look at all
the different kinds of media just hitting us from every
direction these days. You know, So once I knew this
place existed, you go to Detroit. Detroit ters know about it, right,
and they're passionate about it. In fact, there is an
(08:22):
entire resurgence now that freeway that knocked black bottom down.
They are going to fill it in and they are
going to do something different now, and now the people
that live in that area of Detroit are like making
sure the whole city knows we need to like repurpose
this land for its original use, which was for the
black community of Detroit.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
You know. But listen.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I also I got to tell you, I listen. I
love the history. I could talk about the history all
day long. But this is not a history book, right.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
It is not a textbook.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
And so I believe very much in a sort of
Harry Poppin's style of storytelling, which is a spoonful of
sugar to help the medicine go down. In this case,
the medicine is very much what we're talking about now.
It's the destruction of Black Bottom and the brilliance that
came out of that community and the tragedy that overtook it.
But the sugar that makes that pill go down is crime,
(09:19):
family and murder and lust and forbidden love and some
really really fun stuff to to what your appetite in
the novel.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I'm not just I just wanted to way to get
people because my I know, my fan base likes to
hear this kind of stuff. They'll be like, oh my god,
so that they will come to you trip book because
they're like, oh, I mean, but he's right, it's historical fiction.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
That's a whole separate genre. Like it's not that he's
telling you. It's not.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
It's not text working at all. Right, it's a great
drama and we have these two brothers, Jasper and Ben.
Is a whole thing going on there. And it's not
just crime. It's like there's it's about family. It's about
crime and family. It's about choices, yes, about navigating life
during that time period of the nineteen hundred, said nineteen thirty.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So there's a lot going There's a lot going on
in your book.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
You know when when Blair talks about it, he says,
in the same way that you know, The Godfather is
certainly about the mob, it's certainly about being Italian, it's
certainly about the food. But really what it's about is family.
The Godfather is about family, and send the Survivors is
the same way that the Carter family it is.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
And I said, as I almost give away the ending,
I was just like, I mean, everybody's kind of driving on.
I'm like, one, no, I want to know this and
the name of this and so I guess we'll get
that book too. So I like, but as the book
ends with family, it goes back to the core couples,
I guess, canna say, and family it goes back to
(10:44):
your family. So I thought it didn't and I thought
it might end in some real tragic notes.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
I mean, I think there's some tragedy the book.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
You get that conclusion, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Reading
the book, I was like, Oh, it's gonna be really bad.
It's gonna be I was like, Oh, it's gonna be
really bad, Like, oh, am, I gonna be like screaming
or hollering or crying at the end. I folks had
to read the book. It's You're seriously gonna go through
the ups and downs in this book.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yeah, yeah, you know, And I'm really excited. And I'll
give you a little hint as to like what's coming
with the second book. But the idea here is and
you know, and I can tell your audience that there.
The book is written in three parts, and the first
chapter of each part tells the story about how these
two brothers, Ben and Jasper Carter came from tragedy in
the South outside of Birmingham, Alabama, and how they slowly
(11:35):
migrated with the Great Migration up to Detroit to find,
you know, a better live for themselves. The second book
does something similar but the opposite. So it's also written
in three three parts, but the first chapter of each
part in the second book goes into the future and
shows you how their ancestors, like what became of them
(11:56):
after what we know happened to the to the Parner
brothers in these books.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
So it's really.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Fun, okay, creating these characters.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So we're going between the pages and creating these characters.
How'd you begin to create Jasper and Band? You knew
as we brothers, like you do as we brothers.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
So you you gotta you've got to go with you know,
everything that you write as a writer, everything that you create,
has to have some piece of truth and and you
gotta you steal from your own life, right. So something
that I am very familiar with is that I have
a brother, I come from a family of two and parents.
You're a parent, I'm a parent. Something that we understand
(12:36):
is that there's this sometimes two kids or many kids.
Any children can grow up in the same household, with
the same parents, the same everything, and become entirely different
human being, right, and me and my brother are very
much that we went in We went in such different paths,
(12:57):
not not too much, not too similar from what happens
to Ben and Jasper. And so Jasper has the reason
his worldview is so different. He's the older of these
two brothers, is because he's sort of faded with taking
care of his younger siblings's. He's put into this fatherly
(13:17):
position where it's his responsibility to make sure they're fed
and they got closed on their back. He even puts
his younger brother Ben through college, right, well, just that alone.
Ben now has an education that his older brother doesn't have,
hasn't had to work with his hands nearly as hard
as his older brother had, has not had to suffer
in that way. There are other things, Listen, we all
(13:39):
have the things that we're dealing with. But when faced
with life in nineteen thirties Detroit, they have two different
ways of tackling the problems. One is books and ballots
and the other one is boos and bullets. And it's
an incredible journey these two are.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, that's exactly. You get that. You get that exactly,
You get the push and pull. And I have a brother.
So I'm we're very different. I mean we we we're
three years apart. You're right, but it's it's especially especially
if you're closer in age. We really got the parents.
You get the the parents at the same time. And
then there's one that when you're older and you're it's different,
but your parents you're around the same age. You the
(14:22):
parents that were the same age. It's weird how that happens.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You're like happened and really that whole argument about nature
versus nurture, right, like there's something, something's there, something's happening,
you know.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Okay, someone to ask you this question, but this is
just because it's a sick shit of course, Which brother
are you?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So I'm I'm most certainly Ben uh And we've been
talking about a lot of the pros and cons of this.
So Ben is the is the like the one that
gets put through college and is trying to take take
care of things through the system. Blair answers the question differently.
He always says that he's jasper and trying, and I
(15:02):
recognize is actually I'm Ben, But.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I wish I was jasper, okay, because there's so much.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
There's only so much you can do by following the
rules and staying in your lane. At some point you
have to burn it down and demand what you're owed.
And that's what Jasper does in this book.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Together they make a They actually make a good team,
even though they keep butting heads, right, But yeah, I
wish I wish I was I was. I'll tell you
a really funny story like that. We were just in
Detroit promoting the book, and they were doing the Detroit
Grand Prix and our hotel was right smack in the
middle of the racetrack, so it became hard to get
(15:42):
to and from the hotel. So Blair and I were
driving and we see this guy. We're like, we don't
know where do we turn? And we see a guy
coming up to us and we're like, is this a
security guard? Is this What are they going to tell
us to do? And I roll down the window and
the guy goes, you know, oh, are you guys here
for the Grand Prix? And Blair leans over goes, yeah,
we're here with Grand Prix. He goes right this way, sir,
and he just let us into wherever we.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Need to go.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And and immediately I was like, oh, that's how Jasper
handles this situation right, and Ben would have said.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Oh no, I'm sorry, we're just trying to get to
the hotel.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
He would have told us to turn around, go through this,
do that, you know, But no, Jasper won out.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
In that scenario.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Jasper, guys realized, I think I have become Jasper too.
I think I am ways.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
To get it, like I know, like god, I am,
Oh my goodness, now you just said that.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But the thing is reading the book. I can't sleek
bad in the brother's buttoned hands. I kept thinking, you
both went through the same trauma. And so you guys,
you saw your dad. I guess they should get that away.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, yeah, you can get that away. That's fine.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah he's lynched. Yeah, and this is like back in
my teen hundreds, and they see it.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, and because of something that the children do. Right,
So the children, I don't mind giving us away. It's
the first thing, right. So one of the kids, the
younger brother, Ben, drinks from a white water fountain and
some white people see it and the father, their father
(17:04):
gets in the way and reprimands his children on site,
tries to do right, but ultimately, the you know, the
racist South, and these racist people couldn't let it stand,
and so he's lynched. And because of this, the older
brother becomes the father figure. He has to take that
mantle up upon himself. But yeah, where were we going
(17:26):
with that?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Was kept saying that they had they had the same trauma. Yeah,
when they hit it, when they fought.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Right, and and I think that there's I think there's
the greatest conflict for me as a writer things that
what I enjoy the most is when the good guy,
for lack of better terms, right, the good guy and
the bad guy are actually after the same goal.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Right, So Ben and Jasper want the same thing.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Right, That's what I'm saying saying.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
But Ben feels very much like we've earned They've built
this like entire like they've they've built a dynasty for themselves.
They own all these businesses in Blackbottom, and he believes
so much like, look at what we've gained for ourselves.
We can now use the power that we have in
this the influence that we have in this community, and
we can bring everybody up with us. But Jasper goes right,
(18:15):
and if we fail, if we attempt to do that
and we fail, then our family, in the nuclear family,
our wives and our children. They will lose everything, and
he's not willing to give that up.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And neither are kind of wrong.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
No, neither are wrong, right.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's the thing about when I was reading the store,
I'm like, well, the way Jasper feels I feel it right,
and the activist part of me feels it. And that's
what I read, though, But I read his parts that
made me feel more vombable by actives days when I
was younger, And then he got fanned, going well, well, no,
we could do it this way. We find we have
the papers, we have the style, we can do this,
(18:53):
and you want to believe. You want to believe because
you're now at a better position. Things are better, right,
That covered my face. That's like your life these days,
because we think we've made these advances for anybody out there.
We think we make these advances. You think things are
then now it's better. If I just do this, it'll
(19:14):
fall in line. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Correct,
you're right, so, but jaff reside I understand, going well no,
because this, yeah, you'll try it that way, maybe it'll work,
but if it doesn't, we still lose, right, right, correct,
I don't make it we still lose, and just like
(19:35):
I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Lose, I don't want to lose.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
He's thought too.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Hard, and you can understand that because of the lot
he had to face in his life, Right, it was
just different what he had to go through.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, well, well you can almost say also, they're just
two sides of the same coin, or two sides of
the same person, basically, just it's just one but this way,
one went that way.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
But they're basically yeah, you know, listen, I think a
lot about these these conflicts. So like I can say,
on one, let's like reach out into the sci fi world. Right,
something that's certainly big in our our collective societal conscious
is the X men. Right, Magneto and Professor X both
(20:19):
want the same thing. They want equality for mutants, but
one decides the way to get it is basically kill
all the non mutants, and the other one says, well,
we're going to raise up the mutants and make them prove.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
That we're worthy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I think, now take it from sci fi all the
way into the real world. I think we could make
a similar comparison to doctor Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. Yes,
these are two people who want the exact same thing.
They want fairness, they want equality, they want equity. They
had two different ways of going about getting it. Yeah, right,
(20:55):
and neither one of them is wrong.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Actually, realize Keys started getting a little more, a little
more somewhere, I was gonna use it. Towards the end,
people start not liking him because he was getting a
little more conservative right.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Towards the end. I mean it's kind of like, so.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I'm saying that again, nobody was wrong, but they both
wanted the same end result, which is equality for all people,
for black people, especially for all people.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
For sure, I know. And that's that's why, that's why
I like.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
This book, because in fact, I love seeing families, whether
it's cousins, brothers, father, son, mother, daughter, whatever, have these
where the struggles from within. Yes, I mean there's external
stuff that's going on around them, but it all begins
to ends with you, right, it begins, it begins ends
with you. So it's like the struggles like, Okay, we
(21:44):
live in this time period, in this area of the world,
how do we navigate this navigated?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
How do we do it? That's that's that's the story.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Well, you know, and part of that family narrative in
this book, and it'll be through both books. Is this
this idea of sort of passing the baton on to
the next generation, right, So, like a big part of
this book is how their children are sort of coming
of age and what they're learning from their from their parents,
how they're taking over the businesses. I know that I'm
(22:14):
like this now. I've got a thirteen year old son.
But on one in one breath, I would give him anything, right,
I would do anything. I would die for him. On
the other hand, I'm not done yet, don't I'm not
ready to be finished. I still have more to give.
I want to keep living. Right, So when I think
that these brothers are dealing with the same thing, they
see that in one sort of breath, they are on
(22:36):
the way out.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
They are the older generation, and they've got to give
to the They got to like let the younger generation
take the reins. And that's hard. It's hard to let go.
It's hard to let go, even though I care immensely
for that younger generation.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And also I want to bring in the male aspect.
We're men, we have our egos, we have our we
want legacy. I think most of us man and one
have a legacy behind, left behind, like we're still here.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Don't try to put me in bed, don't put me
on the ground already. I'm still I got stuff. I
still got stuff to prove, I say, got stuff to show.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
And there is there is a storyline in the book
where so the oldest of the next generation is is
Ben's son, Charles, and he's sort of running the entire
he runs their nightclub, and and the second oldest is
Jasper's daughter named Sharon. And it's painted in such a
way that the reader, anybody who reads the book is
going to understand that Sharon is the one that is
(23:35):
like grinding. She's the one that is doing the work.
She is making it, she is getting it done. And Charles,
every time he takes a step, it's in a pile
of ship. So but even with that, everyone knows that
she still sort of gets she doesn't get all the
credit she deserves, right, She she's like saving the family
(23:55):
time and time again, like with what she's doing, and
Charles is just rewarded because he's a man.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
And that's it, right, that's it.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
And so it's it is that that the gender gap
there is intentional in this in this book.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I read the hell yeah, I got that in there.
But I just know, for us men, we have our
own egos. We have our own wegos to either getting
the way or keep us going. It's like somebody egos good.
Sometimes it keeps you, it keeps you going, because I'm
telling you, folks, as you get a little older, you
start feeling mortality, you start feeling what's going on, Like
where am I being behind? But for some of us,
we still have a lot we want to give. And
(24:28):
I was like, I don't write off old folks just yet.
And someone's got some stuff to go. And I had
a grandfather was into his eighties and was still doing stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I mean, I mean, it's I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Do think you make a very good point. If there
was no ego at all, nothing would ever get done
right literally. And you can say the same thing about
a lot of things that are maybe intrinsically thought of
as negative, like vanity. If there was no vanity, we
would all be walking around like slobs all day long, right,
we wouldn't care about how we dressed, how we looked,
how we smelled.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
It wouldn't mat right.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
But having a little bit of pride in yourself. A
little bit of vanity, a little bit of ego really
really drives the humanity.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Well, I mean come on, I mean, come on, Joe,
we and we're both in this business. I've been in
business for twenty year. I mean, I business two thousand
and seven, like officially in the business. And you have
to have some of those traits. Over confidence, even naivea
tay sometimes and all things for you.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
That's the point. I thing. We know, these are things.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Are kind of not that kind of bad whatever, be
a little pushing, aggressive, and some of that stuff really
does get you in the door or gets you opportunities sometimes.
And they're all considered bad traits. I'm not saying you
should overload yourself with these traits. We're just saying that sometimes,
you know, being a bitch sometimes does work.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yeah, there's a survival of the fittest sort of aspect
to that.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yes, in certain industry, not every interesting in a certain industry.
I mean, you're just gonna have to have some kind
of you know, even if it's just a little delusion.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Sometimes in this business it goes a long way.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Oh yeah, I listen.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I think I owe a lot to naivity because I
feel like in that sort of analogy of if I
knew then what I know now, I don't know that
I would be in this business at all. I would
definitely warn my younger self just don't just go do
something else right, It's it's too hard, it's too you
don't know when your next paycheck is coming, like you
(26:15):
and and so much of it is just luck, right,
like you have to have I do believe you have
to have the talent as a baseline, but so much
of it is dumb luck. Like I'm case in point.
I met Blair because I was at a holiday dinner
with someone that he went.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
To college with. That was it, That's the whole.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And and and we started working together. And somehow Blair
and I got together. And and like just if I
had if I wasn't at that dinner, I wouldn't have
met Blair. And now Blair and I've got the books.
We did a movie that's not out yet that stars
him and Sarah Silverman and Alfrey Woodard, a very very
dark drama which is fun for you know, Sarah is
not she's not usually in that that realm, but she's
(26:56):
great in it. I've got I've got a whole aspect
of my professional life now because I went to dinner
with one night.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
That's great. It's that's how I'm saying. I went up.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I went to the Magic Castle for my friends anniversary
one year and and I sat next to an assistant
director on House TV. It was a show in the
country at the time, and she's like, you should be
on television. I was like, I can get you on television.
And literally I sat next to her at the Magic
Castle and we yunkeed it up. I was on House
three weeks later.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Wow, well, James, one second, I'm just going to show
you this real quick it well quick shout out. You
just mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Oh my god, I asked.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
My son, thirteen years old, is currently the youngest official
magician member at the Magic Castle. He performs every Saturday
and Sunday. His name is Jackson MacLean. If you're there,
check him out, and performs every weekend.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Okay, my best friend. That's that's that. We folks. We
not planned that. We did not plan. We seriously did
not plan. I did not had no idea.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
I didn't know you were going to bring it up.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
This.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
We got to have you out. You gotta we're gonna
get you some tickets. You're gonna come on up, and
we love it.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I'd love you. I loved you. Oh my, that's so fun.
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
But again, like we said, business and life, this is
this is just But they always say that luck favors
are prepared. True, it was just a second ago. Just
always be ready, Just always doing your stuff. So when
opportunity come lands in your lap or comes your direction,
you're ready.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Always be ready.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
And and and it's funny because I'm doing that right now.
We've been doing a lot of press for the book
and people are asking me like like, this is the
moment when they're saying, well, well, what's next for you? Well,
if I don't have that thing lined up for what's next?
If I just said, oh well no, I'm just gonna
sort of see where the book goes, well, then.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
I'm gonna fall flat on my ass.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Right, No, I got it ready?
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Oh what's next, I'll be I'll delivered to you immediately,
you know.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
So yeah, you have to got to be prepared. This
book is amazing, folks. It's called Sins of Survivors and
Carter Brothers novel. It's behind me. I don't think it's
Li's behind me. You see that.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
You go to Amazon and get it, you go to
any bookstore and get it.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It's there.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Joe McLean and Blair Underwood, check it out, get it.
And I said again, I want to see it as
a series. I want to see I want to see
it as a TV series.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
From your mouth, I'm saying it out. I'm just manifested.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I'm saying out I could instantly your descriptions, how you write.
You also are a screenwriters. I guess that helps I
see it. I'm picturing these characters. I'm picturing the story.
I'm picturing actors.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Here.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I mean, listen, we're having conversations now, so like, I like, please,
I'm really hoping this, this hits your screen somewhere.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
It's an important and not just not just that, it's
an important story too. It's an important a different kind
of storytell. But I'm still part of our great country
that has some soil paths, and we love good family dramas.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
We need some. We need no good family, and there's
nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Joe McLean.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
If they want to follow you anywhere or talk to
you or anything, you have a website or or social Yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Can go to Gingerbeardfilms dot Com is my website and
you can see my socials there. I'm on I mostly
just look on Instagram. That's where I spend spend my
social media time.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I'll follow you. Uh, Ginger, we like Gingers like Ginger Gingers.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Well, it is funny. You can't even really tell anymore.
I'm more of a gray guy.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Now.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, I understand that one very much.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
But you know you heard from that one movie you
guys are black apparently, big joke about saying I love it.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Uh your fight to a cookout? Anyway, I know you are.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Joey cleans his place again, Senator virus. You see it
behind me. It's right, it's you. My head out the way,
it's right there. Brother's novel. Check it out. I'm James
pages Is on Facebook. I'm everywhere at James Jr. And
we'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Thank you,
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