August 21, 2025 • 37 mins
Edgar Award winning and WSJ bestselling author has an amazing thriller out and James talks with him about the new book. Goto Amazon or where books are sold. joehartbooks.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to another edition of In Between the Pages with
James Lott Jr. I'm James Junior. We're gonna go in
betray pages of at this book. The last couple books
I've read, I keep saying there, I keep using the
same where there are page turners. They're like, you can't
put them down. I'm telling you, I'm not even lying
to you. This is the third book in a row
that I seriously read it so fast because I was like,
(00:23):
I want to see im is next and what happens next,
and what's going on next? And the season we're outrageous
and what's coming over here? And it's mixed up and
it's swaying from inter relationships and relationships and twisting turns
and how it ends. It's really really good, folks. It's
called I Become Her. So now if you're watching me, no,
I's ready to go. It's right behind me on a screen.
(00:44):
But I have a book in my hands. You outside
the BIB at advance copy, you can't really see those things.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
But I have it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And we're gonna talk to the author, the mind that
wrote this. He seems so mild mannered. I've been telling
you it's kind of crazy. He's an Edgar Award winner
and Wall Street Journal best selling author of seventeen novels.
It's not his first novel, kids, He's written others, and
he lives in Minnesota. We're just about the weather there.
It's kind of crazy and all this stuff we have
that we have that income people from Minnesota in the Midwest.
(01:11):
That is the mid West, Yes, Midwest. Yeah, that's right,
it's Midwest. And so this latest book is it's so good.
And depending on when you're watching this, it's either on
pre sale or it's already sale. Where you find fine books,
I go to Amazon. There you go, and when you
get it, you read the book and get the book.
Make sure you rate it, make sure you have the stars,
it makes sure you comment. It helps the book in
(01:33):
the algorithms. If I never hear that word any one
time in my life, I'll be happy. But that's the
whole thing. It's all about algorithms. You gotta do this.
This book is really really good. And his name is
Jill Hart.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Hi. Joe, yeah, hi, Hi, Thanks thanks again for having
me on. It's always fun to just sit and talk
a little bit. Authors don't usually, at least me Anyways,
I don't get to sit and talk with people very often,
So no.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
You don't. Just it's a because it's a solitary profession
of solid take. You write, you write yourself. So let's
start people between the pages. What's your writing? What's your
writing methods? Has it change? How does it work from
book to book? What was your writing method? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So when I start off, it's it's all about a
little bit about care. Especially well this book, especially if
we're talking about this one, this one is so much
about character. It was about a situation that I think
a lot of women find themselves in kind of running
up against these different barriers in their life, so personal, societal,
(02:36):
all these different things that they can run into that
the guys don't have to deal with a lot of times.
So I just started thinking about a character. I thought, Okay, well,
how can I encapsulate somebody who's run into all these
kind of challenges and barriers from all these different, you know,
aspects of life and how to affect them. And what
if they ran into, you know, a challenging, get attractive,
(03:01):
charismatic person who comes into their life and they just
kind of fall head over heels in love with this person,
but then slowly start to wonder if they are who
they think they are, and so you take, you know,
you take that. Some people have talked about the book
saying that she's you know, image and the main character
is an unreliable narrator. But I don't know if I
(03:24):
classify her as that. Possibly. I usually leave all that
up to the reader's you know, interpretation and whatnot. But
that's where I started, especially with this book, and usually
that's how I go. I think of a character, or
sometimes a plot piece will kind of come in and
hit me over the head and it'll just kind of
demand to be kind of followed and figure out where
(03:46):
it's going and whatnot. But yeah, so as far as writing,
that's how I start. I usually outline very loosely, so
I can kind of surprise myself along the way. I
think that's really important for the creation process. I know,
I know some authors are very extremely detailed with their outlines.
I'm not quite as detailed. I usually I usually kind
(04:07):
of get I know where I'm going. If I can,
I can figure out the ending first, wonderful. That's that's
usually like a huge plus. If I can figure out
the ending, then I know where I'm driving to, and
but yeah, surprising yourself along the way is really important.
I'm at the point in my career where I just
(04:29):
I want to really, really really enjoy what I'm writing
and having fun with it. I think that comes through
in the pages. So when you're reading it, if the
author is having fun and they're they're really kind of
reveling in what they're doing, I think the reader is
going to do that too. So so that creation process
has to be enticing and exciting for me to follow
(04:50):
an idea down. I've written a couple of books where
it felt like pulling teeth. It's not necessarily to say
those are bad books or that you know, I'm not
happy with them how they turned out, but wow, it's
sometimes it's it's a project. It's a project, so well
what I ask.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You though, But that's the thing. So I've written books also,
so I know how this goes. Sometimes where I think
I know the ending, but then as I'm writing it,
it does change. Yes, that's happened to you before? Is
that happened it has?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, I and I Usually what I do is like
I plant the flag at the end and say this
is where I want to end up and this is
generally what the what the ending is going to be.
But yes, to your hundred percent right, sometimes when you
get there, things have subtly shifted a little and you go, okay,
I have to account for all the things that now
I've put behind me and coming up to it. But yeah,
I think I think if you have that that great
(05:40):
like kind of where that's satisfying. I read one time
I can't remember who said it, but they said, you know,
the ending of a book should feel satisfying but inevitable.
And that's that's kind of generally where I kind of
try to land with a lot of my endings is
that that kind of you feel like you accomplished something,
but also like this is definitely always where you were
going to end up, and I think there is something
(06:03):
satisfying about that. That's that feeling and stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So yeah, okay, so I'm gonna challenge you a little
bit because I read the book. I always read my books.
Noybody knows that I can read them because I love reading.
There's my chance to read books. The authors. I read
the books. So okay, So, folks, the the the premise
a telling people, it's a lot going on it. But
but the premiers are telling me we have a newly
wegged couple, Imagen and Lev and there and they're a
(06:29):
honeymoon cruise. It's there's you know, they they're newly married.
She's finding out stuff from his past. He goes overboard
and quotes doesn't remember nothing, and this stuff stuffs going.
That's just that's just that's just like a loose whatever.
But I want to I want to. I want to
ask Jona question. I read this book and I was like,
(06:50):
I didn't like, imagine, I know she, I know she's
I know she's kind of the well I get, well,
let me say that, we ask you, so is she
she's a protagonist, right, she's the one who's taking us
through the story because it's beginning to end. But for
some reason, I was like, I mean love wasn't was
(07:13):
the greatest either, but I was like, I felt like, right,
I wasn't. I wasn't rooting for her as hard as
much as I wish I had. So it's kind of funny.
So you say that she's the most a reliable their raid.
I kind of felt so I kind of felt that
not weird.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, it's not, no, it's and you know, each like
you said, each reader is different like like, and I
like that. I love that each person can come to
the book and take something a little different. Some people
will connect with very much, connect with certain aspects of
the character, and other things they are not going to
at all, And you know, and I think that's just
true about people in general and whatnot. So I always
(07:53):
try to make my characters. I try to just create people.
I try not to think about them as characters. I
try to think about them as people, if they're living
and breathing people. And yeah, I think there's definitely aspects
about Imagen that are not likable. I think there's many
aspects that she doesn't like about herself, and that's that's
one of the things, like her seeing her arc and
her journey across kind of where she comes from and
(08:15):
where she ends up.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, I think there are things that she is not
happy with and would love to change about herself, and uh,
and that's that's kind of that was part of the
intriguing and appealing aspects of that character for me was
was kind of following her and seeing what's she going to,
what's she going to leave behind and what's she going
to keep and you know what is going to be
(08:39):
the outcome of her actions now getting there?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So yeah, well also because it's also those things, how
well do you know somebody? I mean, I mean you
you give me somebody for four or five years and
still like not really know everything. I mean, if they're
if they're choosing to keep things secret. And also there's
some things do you do you need to know everything?
In this case, it was kind of dug stuff up.
(09:05):
It's almost like, well, girl, you should left it alone. Right.
I was feeling a little bit like, well, girl, that's
your flall girl friend because you decided to do this
and contact that word that would get away towards all
people to read the book. But you see what I'm saying,
Like I was questioning her actions to out the book.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
And ye, no, it's great. I think it's And it's
very much like person to person because that's the thing
is there's certain types of people that absolutely, like you said,
they would just leave well enough alone. They can set
things aside, and this you know, this this book is
very much exactly you nailed it. It's it's a book
about how well you know some somebody else? Especially the
person that's closest to you. That's that's the central central
(09:46):
tenet of the book. And you know, this is a
this is a book about marriage, about trust and secrets,
and you know, how much can you trust somebody with
how well you know them? And yeah, it's I think
there is a there's there's a line that most people,
a lot of people like you said, if you don't
want to know something and you don't think you can
handle know something knowing something, you just stop and you
(10:09):
don't go past that line. And this is very much
a story about somebody that they have to know. They
have to go past that line. They have to keep
figuring it out to understand it. And yeah, it's kind
of fun watching where it leads to, you know, where
she ends up so.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Well, but yeah, we're not give that rental, give that
away at all. But folks, it's ay, and I expect.
I not expect the ending that we got. I did.
I expect that. I know. I know I was good.
I was good. It's good and I'm glad way by No,
I really enjoyed this book. The three hundred and forty
six page I enjoyed it. I'm saying, when we're getting there,
I was like, oh, we're going that rate, but it
(10:46):
actually it made it made sense on something I did.
But we ask you, so we're going, we're going in
between the pages. Do you have to do? You like Imagen?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I know I do like Image, and to an extent,
I think I felt bad for her more than anything.
I did feel sorry for her in a lot of ways.
I've said before. It's like, I think, to be a writer,
you have to like equally love and hate human beings
in general, like to create believable characters. You know, people
(11:24):
are capable of unbelievable kindness that just makes you just
be just it just brings to your knees as far
as like the something that people could do with the
sacrifice they can make for another person, and then they're
also capable of just pravity, just terrible, terrible things. So
it was a little bit of both for Image and
I felt sorry for her, and I also I wish that,
(11:48):
you know, she would empower herself and and that's that's
where I ultimately wanted her to get to. I wanted
her to be the person that she always wanted to be.
So it's yeah, the book, like you said, it's it's
it's about can you know somebody? And then it's also
about can you know yourself? Can you do you? Do
you know who you really are and who you want
(12:11):
to be? And that I think that's a tough question
for a lot of people. Are they happy with who
they are? Would they rather be somebody else or somebody better?
And yeah, it's so that's yeah, I liked imaging, but
I but I felt bad for her, But I also
I wanted her to change too. I wanted her to
become who she was meant to be.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So yeah, and how easier hard was it to write
Leve because he's because he's automatically the antagonist, right, he's
automatically the guy that were buttoned up against and finding
things that I'm out here? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, Lev was interesting. He was really fun to write,
I will say he was. He was fun to write, Yes, yes,
he was. I find that sometimes about side characters, where
it feels like you can be a little more free
flowing sometimes with side characters, you know, or even the
antagonist or the potential antagonist. Yeah, he was fun to write. Uh. Again,
(13:12):
it's diving into you know, whether somebody is wholly bad
or or good or somewhere in between. And Lev was
an interesting kind of he was an enigma I tried.
I wanted I wanted him to be an enigma in
the entire book, you know, and and that he's at
the center, you know, of image and wondering if she
(13:34):
can trust him? Can can I trust this person? I
love this person? Can I trust them? And those are
I think, two very very separate things. So yeah, oh
yes they are. I can see that. But because because
with him, we have the freedom to create whatever you want.
His backstory is you do whatever you will. But she's
a reactor. She's the reactor of and she's the person
we're following. She's walking us through the journey. Yep, right, right,
(13:58):
So it makes sense any other characters coming in. She's
all reactionary to all her stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because you have their relationship
and then it's him his past, her his past. It
all there twines, it's all twisty, and it's it's and
I said, at first, it's like in your book reads
like to me, so I want to say for me,
(14:24):
and Red like layers like plateaus. So we had this
for a few Samody's speaking. I want to see a
TV show, folks told us before, I want Plus or
Hulu or something, and I can see I can see
these episodes. But I say it was chapters. There was
a few chapters as this and then oh, and then
the interest is this, and then oh and then oh.
(14:47):
And I have to mention, folks, the clever titles for
the chapters are the names of the characters.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I am.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I gonna ask this because that that's very I've never
seen it furniting a book, so that's okay, genius. So
what was it by that? I just want to hear
that quick story?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, I you know, I just felt like it was
especially when we're following the different characters, where it's it's
very much image and to begin with, and then we
have our other character, Sierra come on to the scene,
and then it's it's I wanted it to feel very
much like it's. It's this kind of quickening as you
get further and further into the book, you know, you're
(15:32):
slowly learning about Sierra, who she is, her past and
different things, some of it from Imagen's perspective and some
of it from Sierra's perspective, and it's this, Yeah, it's
I wanted it to kind of just start off as
very like kind of intriguing, like, well, who is this
other character in the book. We don't know anything about
(15:53):
this person. We're getting a general sense of them. But
as the book goes on, then it's it's drawing you
deeper and deeper into Sierra's world, and by like the
three quarter point, then it's it's almost kind of flipping
back and forth. So I just felt like it was
very much a pacing thing. So that's kind of why
I chose the character as chapters headings. That type of
(16:15):
thing is as we got further into the book, it
became a pacing thing where you're pretty soon you're leaping
back and forth from these people and you're wondering how
they are going to intertwine eventually.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So yeah, to me, there are two openings. So the
book opens I'm gonna, with his permission, read this is
his run. Yeah, it almost with Sierra. So my who Dad?
Because I saw I read the back of the book.
Because I read the back of the book, it was like,
it was like, who's Sierra m with? Sometimes I asked
myself where it started? So already I'm a me lee
(16:47):
and I'm like Okay, we're getting something again, some set
up what I'm feeling, especially low or missing something from before.
I try pinpointing what was the first thing, the first
mistake that changed every thing. Then the next page you say,
you're like, okay, then we got image in like okay.
(17:08):
At her beginning says, oh my god, my weedy glasses. Okay.
I woke to darkness and a sickening swing that was
either in my head or the entire room opening my eyes.
I knew it could be either.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I was in. I was in.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I was like, you set up to me, it's two
openings and so but then but then you go into
so we only get to Sierra until a little later,
so like, where where's that chick? Where's what's going on?
At first, it was like, we have we got a piece,
So what's the decision to not to start off with
the first with Imagen first? And at first that would
(17:50):
have been a great first opening. Also decided to do
a page of Sierra first.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I feel like how important Sierra was to be ending
was important to open with her, And I feel like
I love books that when you get to the end
and you can start going back books or movies, you know,
you get to the ending and you can start going
back and you can start saying, ah, here's a touchstone,
(18:18):
here's this, here's that, and you can start pulling those
things through. And whether you consciously or subconsciously do it,
I think, you know, I think readers are really smart.
You're either going to you're only going to see these
things and remember them when you get to the end,
or I think there's there's a part of you that
you absorbed it, and whether you can point out these things,
it's going to resonate anyways at the end. So that's
(18:39):
kind of that was my thinking of starting with Sierra
and saying, you know, how important she was to the ending.
I felt like we have to give her a little
bit of a you know, a foot in the door
and kind of an opening at the very beginning.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So yeah, that's those I didn't expect that because I'm like, oh,
so who's that we're reading it, or like oh the
next way, Oh like okay, And when you go into it,
obviously it's the Honeymoon cruise, so it's like it's it's
someone swaying. Especially cruises, I stay what that means, and
remember my first cruise side just a little side. On
my first cruise, I remember I wanted to lay down.
(19:12):
I didn't know how to rest my eyes. I wasn't.
I think it's I think I've learned now, but I'm many.
I'm a big boater, so I don all stuff now.
But like, but when I first started, I was like,
I know, it depends on what position of the boat
you're on, what level and stuff, but I where I
didn't pick where we were staying, so our cabin was
somewhere where my eyes were like rolling around a little
bit to a second the first couple of nights. Yeah, yeah,
(19:36):
I got used to it. I love I love I
love being I love being on the boats. I love
voting and everything there is. There is some you's got
warm people just like you know, not a lot, but
there's some strong words in here, and it's you. I
just want you to know that. So I just want
to I always want to ask all of that because
I still think, I mean, this is for adults or
(19:57):
you know later see that, But you say seventeen eighteen above,
but I would say, how how important is that choice
to watch what words you use.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I think it's incredibly important to think about the impact
that you know, obviously just in general, your words can
have but specific words and I would say, like any
any words that you like, like swear words or things
like that, or explicit language. I feel like it has
to match the moment. So if you have a if
(20:32):
you have a moment in the book, you have a
really powerful character moment. I know me personally, I mean
it's like, well, I know I swear too much, but like,
you know, it's I think I read a study a
while ago they said, you know, people who swear they're
you know, they're more intelligent or something, and that's like, well, yeah,
I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go with that. So
(20:52):
smart people.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
But but yeah, I feel like as.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Far as in stories and stuff, it definitely has to
match the moment.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I get pulled out of.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Either a book or a movie if the character is
acting over the top her erratically and you know, and
it is. If it doesn't feel like it's dovetailed nicely
with the moment, then it pulls me out. If if
it feels like I would say that in that moment,
then I'm in. So that's what I try to do
(21:23):
with my scenes and whatnot.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, I don't want to read this. It's pretty cool.
This is the beginning of the whole thing. It's his writing.
In my dreams, there is a woman, a woman unhindered
by jealousy and insecurities. She is vibrant and free. She
knows what she wants and takes it without apology. She
no longer waits for words she'll never hear. She understands
(21:48):
love is always conditional. She has a strong enough. She
has been strong enough to endure what she didn't deserve,
and stronger still to cast it off and leave it behind.
She is everything I've ever wanted to be, And in
my dreams, I became I become her. What's funny is
that whole paragraph is contradictory in a wonderful and a
(22:11):
beautiful way. It's what we are, and that's that I
become her, I become him, I become whatever. It's it's us.
I read that, I read that, I go there's several
and it represents the whole story, folks, it represents this
whole book. And I thought, what she says, she's unhindered
by jalusey and security. But there's there's things that there's
(22:33):
there's a whole backs in the in there she knows
she takes an apology. But this is obviously when the
next sentence she no longer waits for words she'll never hear.
I mean, she is waiting for those words on some level.
It's almost the fetus, like I know, I'll just never
get them. But when she says love is always conditional,
that's sad. Yeah, sad, Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
It is. I feel like there's, you know, some of
those painful truths. Sometimes is like if I can reach
down and grab some of those and put them on
the page here and there, they're kind of a little
bit of a gut punch, and again it's connecting with
the right person. It's you know, there's certain people that
that will I think will very much resonate with, which
is like you said, it's it's kind of sad. We
(23:20):
we want love to be unconditional, but unfortunately, I feel like,
being the broken species that we are, a lot of
these things are conditional, and we you know, it's it
takes very much a special person to to just wholly
give over, you know, to somebody else without wanting something
back or needing something in return. So yeah, it's I
(23:43):
appreciate what she said. Those are kind of words because
that's and I'm glad that a lot of that stuff
came through because that's exactly the whole purpose of that
opening is is the contradictory nature of human beings. It's
it's all these things mixed up together. So yeah, so
you're married, correct I am?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, so you're writing about marriage, yes, basically the solution
of a marriage. I'm a new marriage. So how does that?
I mean? I mean, obviously I said, you're an artist,
so you create, you paint something, you have to live
it or whatever. Obviously you're not living in But how
does that work for you? It's like, when you're writing
something that's so destructive, how do you keep that, compartmentalize
(24:21):
that from just your own life? Because we get that's
not for us. We're actors, singers, songwriter. We we feel
you're it is you're you're right, you know, I mean,
this is you writing this story, it's coming, you're giving
birth to it, right, Yeah, So how do you keep that?
How do you keep that away from Like you go
to your wife, you love her, you have no secret.
(24:42):
How do you do that? How do you do that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, that's a great question, because I think that's the struggle,
like you said, with any any person who creates, is
is there's that that side of you that you have
to sit down. When you sit down in the chair
to create, you turn that on and there's sometimes you know,
upsetting or discomforting things inside you that you put on
the page or the canvas or whatever on you know,
(25:05):
onto the you know, music, whatever you're whatever you're creating.
But I think that's very healthy, it's very good if
you can access those things. So I you know, I
took I took different things from our relationship, little little
things and kind of blew them up. Sometimes, you know,
you have some of those light you have some of
those nothing fights sometimes with with your spouse, but you know,
(25:27):
significant other, and then all of a sudden you think,
what is a little kernel there or something? And not
only is it is it relatable as somebody's been like
I've had that fight with my husband or wife, you know,
but you can but you can also take and make
a little bit of a sinister turn on it and say, Okay,
well is there something behind why somebody would say that
or do that. Usually they're innocuous or you're just emotional
(25:51):
when you're having an argument with somebody. But I did
a little bit of that with you know, bringing some
of those those things that are recognizable then but then
putting just a slight bent on the conversation where you
start to go, what is there is there something behind that?
Is there something that I should be reading between the
lines that my partner said to me? And that's that's
(26:12):
very much Imagen's point of view is she's very little paranoid,
a little bit bordering on paranoid and paranoia, you know,
doesn't want to be that way. But so that's I
you know, I gathered a little bit of that from
real life. You know, you can think back about different
relationship things and whatnot. But yeah, I think it's I
think it's very good. It's very healthy and natural. That's
kind of taken into a little bit of those things
(26:34):
that maybe subconscious and unconscious thoughts that you have from
time to time, and then you can kind of pull
them out and put them on the page and if again,
if they dubtail and they will work for the story,
then I think that's great. It's a little bit of
a relief valve, you know, to some extent, I think
that artists are able to kind of use that a
lot of people maybe don't have access to, and it potentially,
(26:55):
you know, it can be you know, maybe a negative
thing in their life if they don't have a way
to you know, kind of get some of this stuff out.
I think artists have them. It's very much like a
nice way to, uh, to kind of relieve some of
these things, these thoughts and these emotions in the back
of their head and you can kind of put it
on the page. Not that I haven't gotten looks from
my wife sometimes for like things that I've written and
she'll read it, she'll be like, Okay, we're not going
(27:18):
to discuss that. I'd be like, that's fine. What did
you know was it?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Was it good?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah? It was fine?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
You know that's so yeah, shout out to her. She's great. Yeah,
she's with your writing adventures because you're writing shenanigans. But
I agree with you. It's as artists, we're very fortunate
that we can get an outlet. And you're right, taking
(27:45):
something and exploring it with real life, you would never
want to do that. We like, well, writing, I could
do that over here and see what happens and where
does it go and I'll just feel it. Yeah, I
agree with that completely. That's so are the so are
there any aspects? Can we always say this? Most writers
say this, what part of you is in here? Right?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah? Let me think for a second here, because yeah,
it's I'm I'm unconscious of that. Most times I have
some of my editors come back and they'll tell me.
They'll point out in certain areas, especially if they're either
you know, people that know me pretty well, right, they'll say, oh,
you're writing about this that happened to you, or you're
writing about your son or your daughter or your wife.
And it's like, oh and then and then you've got
(28:31):
to step back from it a little bit and be like, oh,
I guess yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm going to say, uh,
some of images, Uh yeah, maybe paranoia or probably more accurately,
is that that insecurity? Uh, that that she feels kind
of the worry and the anxiety. You know, I suffer
from anxiety. I think you know, it's very common. A
(28:53):
lot of people do, even if they don't realize they
have anxiety, they suffer from it. And so I, yes,
I tapped into that personally some in in some of
those scenes where she's spiraling, she's thinking about things that
that she has no idea if they're true or real
or going to happen or not. And what's what's the
(29:16):
old saying is anxiety is anxiety is worrying about future,
and depression is sometimes worrying about the past or the present,
you know, and it's it's some of those things you know,
put put simply, so I think that's that's some of
the things that I identified with for her was was
the anxious, bound up feelings that you can get sometimes
(29:36):
when you start to wonder if something's going to happen
or if something bad's coming. Uh So that's kind of
what I tapped into, which is, you know, I hope
I hope those scenes came across because that's it is
kind of one of those uncomfortable moments where you, you know,
you dig down and put that on the page a
little bit. So so far, I've gotten pretty good feedback
(29:57):
from people who've mentioned that specif the thing. It's like, oh, yeah,
that that anxiety came through, and it's like, yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
There's my ask you before you wrap this. It's been wonderful.
What is the Edgar Award and how it and what
was like winning that.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah. Yeah, so the Edgar is kind of the you know,
I don't want to I don't make it sound you know,
pompous or anything, but it's it's kind of the top
for the genre award for like mystery and kind of suspense,
mostly mystery. So it's Edgar Allen pull Award since he
(30:36):
was technically, you know, the first mystery writer, you know,
the father the mystery basically. And so yeah, the Edgar
Awards are every year in New York. They do a
whole uh you know kind of party and and uh
give the awards out and whatnot. So yeah, I got
(30:57):
nominated for my novel or Else a couple of years back.
And or Else is one of my favorite books that
I've ever written. It was one of those books. It
was on the opposite end of the spectrum as far
as like we talked about books that are really hard
to write and that just you know, kind of like
you've got to wrestle it the whole way. Or Else.
It was one of those books that just felt like
(31:17):
it was beamed in and I just I was just
a channel for it and it just kind of came
out and I felt really good about the book, and
then for it to get nominated, I was just over
the moon because I was like, that's amazing. You know.
It's like I was in there with I think four
other nominees from my category for Best Best Paperback Original,
and I was like, you know, some some very talented
(31:39):
people on the on the list, and I was like,
this is this is wonderful, this is.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
This is great.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I don't I don't need to win. I got nominated.
This is amazing. So yeah, lo and behold, Awards night
came along. I wasn't able to go to New York,
but I had one of my editors was there because
there was a couple other people from our imprint nominate
and uh yeah, I get to watch the live stream
and Laura Littman, who was an amazing writer, she was
(32:05):
the one that was giving away the award from my category,
and I'm sitting there and she said my name and
my book and I I just sat there stunned for
a second because I actually had to look at my wife.
I said that just happened. You know, You're wondering if
you like maybe just projected it. You're like, oh, yeah,
they said my name, right, no they didn't. But yeah,
(32:28):
so yeah, it was just an absolute thrill and an honor.
It was. It was amazing outpouring from the community and
all these different people that reached out and said congratulations,
and yeah, it's been, it's been. It's been awesome. It's
it's it's such a like I said, it's just such
an honor seeing the other people that have been, you know,
awarded that and and to know that apparently they thought
(32:52):
I deserve to be among them. So that's it's awesome.
It's really really fun. It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So yeah, it's it's a trip. We don't you know,
we we don't do those for awards, and so to
get nominated for something, it really is truly to get nominated.
I've been nominated for I want a few things, not
a lot of a few things. And I do understand
it's kind of like, oh, okay, and and and folks,
it really is cliche. It's nicely not a lot of times.
Really is nice to be nominating if you think it is, Wow,
(33:18):
all the particulars. Think about this, folks, of the millions
of books that are out thousands of books that are
out there that yours got on the radar and then
someone if some people were voted, they picked it and
said that one.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's that special feeling, you know that,
it's like somebody noticed something that you did and thought
it was good, and yeah, it's just it's a nice feeling.
And it's like you said, it's it's to be recognized, and.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
You were You're right.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
We don't do this for that, but it is one
of those things that's every so often, if you're lucky,
it comes along and yeah, you just enjoy it because
it's yeah, it's an honor. So yeah, that was very cool,
very cool.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
But you should feel proud for this book too, Joe.
It's very it's well done. And I I but I
And it's funny because I guess I asked. I asked it.
Sometimes as I end the show, I'm like sequel, prequel
side but spin off. But I'm like, this is kind
of a prequel and as present day, it's like it's
both learning the past. And so I guess I don't
(34:20):
think I mean any anything. I know you're just releasing
I know you're releasing this, but most authors are working
on their next thing already. There's anything more kind from
this at all, or I just just right now, put
a bed right now, and that's it.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, I think it's done. It depends again, like I mean,
it's it always depends on the level of uh success
and how readers react to it. If if somebody wants
to know more. I think there is more of the
story potentially after the book ends.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I always you know, I always like to lead that
for the reader too, because I like the reader to
just sit and say, well, I think this happened then,
or you know, this had to have happened then, and
it's like that's that's great if you can, you know,
the reader can sit and think about that after the book,
because I love that when I close the book, you know,
there's that feeling you had a little bit of the
book hangover and you're thinking about characters afterwards, and it's
(35:12):
like that's then you know you've read something worthwhile. You
know that had a little bit of substance to it
and it kind of lingered with you. So, yeah, there's
there's more to this story. I think there could be something. Yeah,
so I guess we'll see. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Joehartbooks dot Com.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That's h A R. T.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
As in hearts uh Instagram, Joe on his score Heart
and Hiscore author Facebook, Joe Heart author. Make sure you
follow him in those places. The book, I said, whether
you're watching it now before it's out, is available for
pre sale. Where do that or get it? It's not already,
go get it. I become her a thriller. It really
(35:50):
is a thriller books Like I'm not joking. Thanks Joe
Harv for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Oh, thank you, appreciate great questions.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Thank you. And you want me to come back with
your next books, any books you can coming out. You
have an irritation back on the show.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Awesome, awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So folks I always end up with, you know, support
the arts. We do not band books. We don't believe
in that. Here. We believe in everyone having the freedom
to read what they want to read and write what
they want to write. There are a lot of authors
out there there are not super famous. We have amazing stories.
That's what I do here on the show. We're doing
this show for almost ten years. That's kind of the
(36:24):
reason why I do this show because I support authors
and people who are writers. You know, it's it's everybody
thinks they can do it, and many of my people
can do it. But it is it is a discipline,
and it is a world and for many writers, many
writers who are just unsung out there, who have amazing,
amazing stories they're telling like this one. So please support
(36:46):
the arts and again, any kind of arts, whether it's painting, dancing, music,
it's acting, whatever it is, even hosting things that I do,
hosting support. They say it's good. It's good in schools.
My grandkids went to art based schools and it made
them smarter in English and math and science and history.
It's been shown. And books are a world. They're not
(37:06):
going anywhere, whether it's audible or kindle or paring back
or herdback, they are not going anywhere. They teach other worlds.
And many times in the world we're in today, I
want to go somewhere else. The books take you to
do that. I'm James Jr. And we will talk to
you next Thursday with another audition. I we between the
payer for James LTT Junior
Welcome to another edition of In Between the Pages with
James Lott Jr. I'm James Junior. We're gonna go in
betray pages of at this book. The last couple books
I've read, I keep saying there, I keep using the
same where there are page turners. They're like, you can't
put them down. I'm telling you, I'm not even lying
to you. This is the third book in a row
that I seriously read it so fast because I was like,
(00:23):
I want to see im is next and what happens next,
and what's going on next? And the season we're outrageous
and what's coming over here? And it's mixed up and
it's swaying from inter relationships and relationships and twisting turns
and how it ends. It's really really good, folks. It's
called I Become Her. So now if you're watching me, no,
I's ready to go. It's right behind me on a screen.
(00:44):
But I have a book in my hands. You outside
the BIB at advance copy, you can't really see those things.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
But I have it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And we're gonna talk to the author, the mind that
wrote this. He seems so mild mannered. I've been telling
you it's kind of crazy. He's an Edgar Award winner
and Wall Street Journal best selling author of seventeen novels.
It's not his first novel, kids, He's written others, and
he lives in Minnesota. We're just about the weather there.
It's kind of crazy and all this stuff we have
that we have that income people from Minnesota in the Midwest.
(01:11):
That is the mid West, Yes, Midwest. Yeah, that's right,
it's Midwest. And so this latest book is it's so good.
And depending on when you're watching this, it's either on
pre sale or it's already sale. Where you find fine books,
I go to Amazon. There you go, and when you
get it, you read the book and get the book.
Make sure you rate it, make sure you have the stars,
it makes sure you comment. It helps the book in
(01:33):
the algorithms. If I never hear that word any one
time in my life, I'll be happy. But that's the
whole thing. It's all about algorithms. You gotta do this.
This book is really really good. And his name is
Jill Hart.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Hi. Joe, yeah, hi, Hi, Thanks thanks again for having
me on. It's always fun to just sit and talk
a little bit. Authors don't usually, at least me Anyways,
I don't get to sit and talk with people very often,
So no.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
You don't. Just it's a because it's a solitary profession
of solid take. You write, you write yourself. So let's
start people between the pages. What's your writing? What's your
writing methods? Has it change? How does it work from
book to book? What was your writing method? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So when I start off, it's it's all about a
little bit about care. Especially well this book, especially if
we're talking about this one, this one is so much
about character. It was about a situation that I think
a lot of women find themselves in kind of running
up against these different barriers in their life, so personal, societal,
(02:36):
all these different things that they can run into that
the guys don't have to deal with a lot of times.
So I just started thinking about a character. I thought, Okay, well,
how can I encapsulate somebody who's run into all these
kind of challenges and barriers from all these different, you know,
aspects of life and how to affect them. And what
if they ran into, you know, a challenging, get attractive,
(03:01):
charismatic person who comes into their life and they just
kind of fall head over heels in love with this person,
but then slowly start to wonder if they are who
they think they are, and so you take, you know,
you take that. Some people have talked about the book
saying that she's you know, image and the main character
is an unreliable narrator. But I don't know if I
(03:24):
classify her as that. Possibly. I usually leave all that
up to the reader's you know, interpretation and whatnot. But
that's where I started, especially with this book, and usually
that's how I go. I think of a character, or
sometimes a plot piece will kind of come in and
hit me over the head and it'll just kind of
demand to be kind of followed and figure out where
(03:46):
it's going and whatnot. But yeah, so as far as writing,
that's how I start. I usually outline very loosely, so
I can kind of surprise myself along the way. I
think that's really important for the creation process. I know,
I know some authors are very extremely detailed with their outlines.
I'm not quite as detailed. I usually I usually kind
(04:07):
of get I know where I'm going. If I can,
I can figure out the ending first, wonderful. That's that's
usually like a huge plus. If I can figure out
the ending, then I know where I'm driving to, and
but yeah, surprising yourself along the way is really important.
I'm at the point in my career where I just
(04:29):
I want to really, really really enjoy what I'm writing
and having fun with it. I think that comes through
in the pages. So when you're reading it, if the
author is having fun and they're they're really kind of
reveling in what they're doing, I think the reader is
going to do that too. So so that creation process
has to be enticing and exciting for me to follow
(04:50):
an idea down. I've written a couple of books where
it felt like pulling teeth. It's not necessarily to say
those are bad books or that you know, I'm not
happy with them how they turned out, but wow, it's
sometimes it's it's a project. It's a project, so well
what I ask.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You though, But that's the thing. So I've written books also,
so I know how this goes. Sometimes where I think
I know the ending, but then as I'm writing it,
it does change. Yes, that's happened to you before? Is
that happened it has?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, I and I Usually what I do is like
I plant the flag at the end and say this
is where I want to end up and this is
generally what the what the ending is going to be.
But yes, to your hundred percent right, sometimes when you
get there, things have subtly shifted a little and you go, okay,
I have to account for all the things that now
I've put behind me and coming up to it. But yeah,
I think I think if you have that that great
(05:40):
like kind of where that's satisfying. I read one time
I can't remember who said it, but they said, you know,
the ending of a book should feel satisfying but inevitable.
And that's that's kind of generally where I kind of
try to land with a lot of my endings is
that that kind of you feel like you accomplished something,
but also like this is definitely always where you were
going to end up, and I think there is something
(06:03):
satisfying about that. That's that feeling and stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So yeah, okay, so I'm gonna challenge you a little
bit because I read the book. I always read my books.
Noybody knows that I can read them because I love reading.
There's my chance to read books. The authors. I read
the books. So okay, So, folks, the the the premise
a telling people, it's a lot going on it. But
but the premiers are telling me we have a newly
wegged couple, Imagen and Lev and there and they're a
(06:29):
honeymoon cruise. It's there's you know, they they're newly married.
She's finding out stuff from his past. He goes overboard
and quotes doesn't remember nothing, and this stuff stuffs going.
That's just that's just that's just like a loose whatever.
But I want to I want to. I want to
ask Jona question. I read this book and I was like,
(06:50):
I didn't like, imagine, I know she, I know she's
I know she's kind of the well I get, well,
let me say that, we ask you, so is she
she's a protagonist, right, she's the one who's taking us
through the story because it's beginning to end. But for
some reason, I was like, I mean love wasn't was
(07:13):
the greatest either, but I was like, I felt like, right,
I wasn't. I wasn't rooting for her as hard as
much as I wish I had. So it's kind of funny.
So you say that she's the most a reliable their raid.
I kind of felt so I kind of felt that
not weird.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, it's not, no, it's and you know, each like
you said, each reader is different like like, and I
like that. I love that each person can come to
the book and take something a little different. Some people
will connect with very much, connect with certain aspects of
the character, and other things they are not going to
at all, And you know, and I think that's just
true about people in general and whatnot. So I always
(07:53):
try to make my characters. I try to just create people.
I try not to think about them as characters. I
try to think about them as people, if they're living
and breathing people. And yeah, I think there's definitely aspects
about Imagen that are not likable. I think there's many
aspects that she doesn't like about herself, and that's that's
one of the things, like her seeing her arc and
her journey across kind of where she comes from and
(08:15):
where she ends up.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, I think there are things that she is not
happy with and would love to change about herself, and uh,
and that's that's kind of that was part of the
intriguing and appealing aspects of that character for me was
was kind of following her and seeing what's she going to,
what's she going to leave behind and what's she going
to keep and you know what is going to be
(08:39):
the outcome of her actions now getting there?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So yeah, well also because it's also those things, how
well do you know somebody? I mean, I mean you
you give me somebody for four or five years and
still like not really know everything. I mean, if they're
if they're choosing to keep things secret. And also there's
some things do you do you need to know everything?
In this case, it was kind of dug stuff up.
(09:05):
It's almost like, well, girl, you should left it alone. Right.
I was feeling a little bit like, well, girl, that's
your flall girl friend because you decided to do this
and contact that word that would get away towards all
people to read the book. But you see what I'm saying,
Like I was questioning her actions to out the book.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
And ye, no, it's great. I think it's And it's
very much like person to person because that's the thing
is there's certain types of people that absolutely, like you said,
they would just leave well enough alone. They can set
things aside, and this you know, this this book is
very much exactly you nailed it. It's it's a book
about how well you know some somebody else? Especially the
person that's closest to you. That's that's the central central
(09:46):
tenet of the book. And you know, this is a
this is a book about marriage, about trust and secrets,
and you know, how much can you trust somebody with
how well you know them? And yeah, it's I think
there is a there's there's a line that most people,
a lot of people like you said, if you don't
want to know something and you don't think you can
handle know something knowing something, you just stop and you
(10:09):
don't go past that line. And this is very much
a story about somebody that they have to know. They
have to go past that line. They have to keep
figuring it out to understand it. And yeah, it's kind
of fun watching where it leads to, you know, where
she ends up so.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Well, but yeah, we're not give that rental, give that
away at all. But folks, it's ay, and I expect.
I not expect the ending that we got. I did.
I expect that. I know. I know I was good.
I was good. It's good and I'm glad way by No,
I really enjoyed this book. The three hundred and forty
six page I enjoyed it. I'm saying, when we're getting there,
I was like, oh, we're going that rate, but it
(10:46):
actually it made it made sense on something I did.
But we ask you, so we're going, we're going in
between the pages. Do you have to do? You like Imagen?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I know I do like Image, and to an extent,
I think I felt bad for her more than anything.
I did feel sorry for her in a lot of ways.
I've said before. It's like, I think, to be a writer,
you have to like equally love and hate human beings
in general, like to create believable characters. You know, people
(11:24):
are capable of unbelievable kindness that just makes you just
be just it just brings to your knees as far
as like the something that people could do with the
sacrifice they can make for another person, and then they're
also capable of just pravity, just terrible, terrible things. So
it was a little bit of both for Image and
I felt sorry for her, and I also I wish that,
(11:48):
you know, she would empower herself and and that's that's
where I ultimately wanted her to get to. I wanted
her to be the person that she always wanted to be.
So it's yeah, the book, like you said, it's it's
it's about can you know somebody? And then it's also
about can you know yourself? Can you do you? Do
you know who you really are and who you want
(12:11):
to be? And that I think that's a tough question
for a lot of people. Are they happy with who
they are? Would they rather be somebody else or somebody better?
And yeah, it's so that's yeah, I liked imaging, but
I but I felt bad for her, But I also
I wanted her to change too. I wanted her to
become who she was meant to be.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So yeah, and how easier hard was it to write
Leve because he's because he's automatically the antagonist, right, he's
automatically the guy that were buttoned up against and finding
things that I'm out here? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, Lev was interesting. He was really fun to write,
I will say he was. He was fun to write, Yes, yes,
he was. I find that sometimes about side characters, where
it feels like you can be a little more free
flowing sometimes with side characters, you know, or even the
antagonist or the potential antagonist. Yeah, he was fun to write. Uh. Again,
(13:12):
it's diving into you know, whether somebody is wholly bad
or or good or somewhere in between. And Lev was
an interesting kind of he was an enigma I tried.
I wanted I wanted him to be an enigma in
the entire book, you know, and and that he's at
the center, you know, of image and wondering if she
(13:34):
can trust him? Can can I trust this person? I
love this person? Can I trust them? And those are
I think, two very very separate things. So yeah, oh
yes they are. I can see that. But because because
with him, we have the freedom to create whatever you want.
His backstory is you do whatever you will. But she's
a reactor. She's the reactor of and she's the person
we're following. She's walking us through the journey. Yep, right, right,
(13:58):
So it makes sense any other characters coming in. She's
all reactionary to all her stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because you have their relationship
and then it's him his past, her his past. It
all there twines, it's all twisty, and it's it's and
I said, at first, it's like in your book reads
like to me, so I want to say for me,
(14:24):
and Red like layers like plateaus. So we had this
for a few Samody's speaking. I want to see a
TV show, folks told us before, I want Plus or
Hulu or something, and I can see I can see
these episodes. But I say it was chapters. There was
a few chapters as this and then oh, and then
the interest is this, and then oh and then oh.
(14:47):
And I have to mention, folks, the clever titles for
the chapters are the names of the characters.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I am.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I gonna ask this because that that's very I've never
seen it furniting a book, so that's okay, genius. So
what was it by that? I just want to hear
that quick story?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, I you know, I just felt like it was
especially when we're following the different characters, where it's it's
very much image and to begin with, and then we
have our other character, Sierra come on to the scene,
and then it's it's I wanted it to feel very
much like it's. It's this kind of quickening as you
get further and further into the book, you know, you're
(15:32):
slowly learning about Sierra, who she is, her past and
different things, some of it from Imagen's perspective and some
of it from Sierra's perspective, and it's this, Yeah, it's
I wanted it to kind of just start off as
very like kind of intriguing, like, well, who is this
other character in the book. We don't know anything about
(15:53):
this person. We're getting a general sense of them. But
as the book goes on, then it's it's drawing you
deeper and deeper into Sierra's world, and by like the
three quarter point, then it's it's almost kind of flipping
back and forth. So I just felt like it was
very much a pacing thing. So that's kind of why
I chose the character as chapters headings. That type of
(16:15):
thing is as we got further into the book, it
became a pacing thing where you're pretty soon you're leaping
back and forth from these people and you're wondering how
they are going to intertwine eventually.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So yeah, to me, there are two openings. So the
book opens I'm gonna, with his permission, read this is
his run. Yeah, it almost with Sierra. So my who Dad?
Because I saw I read the back of the book.
Because I read the back of the book, it was like,
it was like, who's Sierra m with? Sometimes I asked
myself where it started? So already I'm a me lee
(16:47):
and I'm like Okay, we're getting something again, some set
up what I'm feeling, especially low or missing something from before.
I try pinpointing what was the first thing, the first
mistake that changed every thing. Then the next page you say,
you're like, okay, then we got image in like okay.
(17:08):
At her beginning says, oh my god, my weedy glasses. Okay.
I woke to darkness and a sickening swing that was
either in my head or the entire room opening my eyes.
I knew it could be either.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I was in. I was in.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I was like, you set up to me, it's two
openings and so but then but then you go into
so we only get to Sierra until a little later,
so like, where where's that chick? Where's what's going on?
At first, it was like, we have we got a piece,
So what's the decision to not to start off with
the first with Imagen first? And at first that would
(17:50):
have been a great first opening. Also decided to do
a page of Sierra first.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I feel like how important Sierra was to be ending
was important to open with her, And I feel like
I love books that when you get to the end
and you can start going back books or movies, you know,
you get to the ending and you can start going
back and you can start saying, ah, here's a touchstone,
(18:18):
here's this, here's that, and you can start pulling those
things through. And whether you consciously or subconsciously do it,
I think, you know, I think readers are really smart.
You're either going to you're only going to see these
things and remember them when you get to the end,
or I think there's there's a part of you that
you absorbed it, and whether you can point out these things,
it's going to resonate anyways at the end. So that's
(18:39):
kind of that was my thinking of starting with Sierra
and saying, you know, how important she was to the ending.
I felt like we have to give her a little
bit of a you know, a foot in the door
and kind of an opening at the very beginning.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So yeah, that's those I didn't expect that because I'm like, oh,
so who's that we're reading it, or like oh the
next way, Oh like okay, And when you go into it,
obviously it's the Honeymoon cruise, so it's like it's it's
someone swaying. Especially cruises, I stay what that means, and
remember my first cruise side just a little side. On
my first cruise, I remember I wanted to lay down.
(19:12):
I didn't know how to rest my eyes. I wasn't.
I think it's I think I've learned now, but I'm many.
I'm a big boater, so I don all stuff now.
But like, but when I first started, I was like,
I know, it depends on what position of the boat
you're on, what level and stuff, but I where I
didn't pick where we were staying, so our cabin was
somewhere where my eyes were like rolling around a little
bit to a second the first couple of nights. Yeah, yeah,
(19:36):
I got used to it. I love I love I
love being I love being on the boats. I love
voting and everything there is. There is some you's got
warm people just like you know, not a lot, but
there's some strong words in here, and it's you. I
just want you to know that. So I just want
to I always want to ask all of that because
I still think, I mean, this is for adults or
(19:57):
you know later see that, But you say seventeen eighteen above,
but I would say, how how important is that choice
to watch what words you use.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I think it's incredibly important to think about the impact
that you know, obviously just in general, your words can
have but specific words and I would say, like any
any words that you like, like swear words or things
like that, or explicit language. I feel like it has
to match the moment. So if you have a if
(20:32):
you have a moment in the book, you have a
really powerful character moment. I know me personally, I mean
it's like, well, I know I swear too much, but like,
you know, it's I think I read a study a
while ago they said, you know, people who swear they're
you know, they're more intelligent or something, and that's like, well, yeah,
I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go with that. So
(20:52):
smart people.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
But but yeah, I feel like as.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Far as in stories and stuff, it definitely has to
match the moment.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I get pulled out of.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Either a book or a movie if the character is
acting over the top her erratically and you know, and
it is. If it doesn't feel like it's dovetailed nicely
with the moment, then it pulls me out. If if
it feels like I would say that in that moment,
then I'm in. So that's what I try to do
(21:23):
with my scenes and whatnot.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, I don't want to read this. It's pretty cool.
This is the beginning of the whole thing. It's his writing.
In my dreams, there is a woman, a woman unhindered
by jealousy and insecurities. She is vibrant and free. She
knows what she wants and takes it without apology. She
no longer waits for words she'll never hear. She understands
(21:48):
love is always conditional. She has a strong enough. She
has been strong enough to endure what she didn't deserve,
and stronger still to cast it off and leave it behind.
She is everything I've ever wanted to be, And in
my dreams, I became I become her. What's funny is
that whole paragraph is contradictory in a wonderful and a
(22:11):
beautiful way. It's what we are, and that's that I
become her, I become him, I become whatever. It's it's us.
I read that, I read that, I go there's several
and it represents the whole story, folks, it represents this
whole book. And I thought, what she says, she's unhindered
by jalusey and security. But there's there's things that there's
(22:33):
there's a whole backs in the in there she knows
she takes an apology. But this is obviously when the
next sentence she no longer waits for words she'll never hear.
I mean, she is waiting for those words on some level.
It's almost the fetus, like I know, I'll just never
get them. But when she says love is always conditional,
that's sad. Yeah, sad, Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
It is. I feel like there's, you know, some of
those painful truths. Sometimes is like if I can reach
down and grab some of those and put them on
the page here and there, they're kind of a little
bit of a gut punch, and again it's connecting with
the right person. It's you know, there's certain people that
that will I think will very much resonate with, which
is like you said, it's it's kind of sad. We
(23:20):
we want love to be unconditional, but unfortunately, I feel like,
being the broken species that we are, a lot of
these things are conditional, and we you know, it's it
takes very much a special person to to just wholly
give over, you know, to somebody else without wanting something
back or needing something in return. So yeah, it's I
(23:43):
appreciate what she said. Those are kind of words because
that's and I'm glad that a lot of that stuff
came through because that's exactly the whole purpose of that
opening is is the contradictory nature of human beings. It's
it's all these things mixed up together. So yeah, so
you're married, correct I am?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, so you're writing about marriage, yes, basically the solution
of a marriage. I'm a new marriage. So how does that?
I mean? I mean, obviously I said, you're an artist,
so you create, you paint something, you have to live
it or whatever. Obviously you're not living in But how
does that work for you? It's like, when you're writing
something that's so destructive, how do you keep that, compartmentalize
(24:21):
that from just your own life? Because we get that's
not for us. We're actors, singers, songwriter. We we feel
you're it is you're you're right, you know, I mean,
this is you writing this story, it's coming, you're giving
birth to it, right, Yeah, So how do you keep that?
How do you keep that away from Like you go
to your wife, you love her, you have no secret.
(24:42):
How do you do that? How do you do that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, that's a great question, because I think that's the struggle,
like you said, with any any person who creates, is
is there's that that side of you that you have
to sit down. When you sit down in the chair
to create, you turn that on and there's sometimes you know,
upsetting or discomforting things inside you that you put on
the page or the canvas or whatever on you know,
(25:05):
onto the you know, music, whatever you're whatever you're creating.
But I think that's very healthy, it's very good if
you can access those things. So I you know, I
took I took different things from our relationship, little little
things and kind of blew them up. Sometimes, you know,
you have some of those light you have some of
those nothing fights sometimes with with your spouse, but you know,
(25:27):
significant other, and then all of a sudden you think,
what is a little kernel there or something? And not
only is it is it relatable as somebody's been like
I've had that fight with my husband or wife, you know,
but you can but you can also take and make
a little bit of a sinister turn on it and say, Okay,
well is there something behind why somebody would say that
or do that. Usually they're innocuous or you're just emotional
(25:51):
when you're having an argument with somebody. But I did
a little bit of that with you know, bringing some
of those those things that are recognizable then but then
putting just a slight bent on the conversation where you
start to go, what is there is there something behind that?
Is there something that I should be reading between the
lines that my partner said to me? And that's that's
(26:12):
very much Imagen's point of view is she's very little paranoid,
a little bit bordering on paranoid and paranoia, you know,
doesn't want to be that way. But so that's I
you know, I gathered a little bit of that from
real life. You know, you can think back about different
relationship things and whatnot. But yeah, I think it's I
think it's very good. It's very healthy and natural. That's
kind of taken into a little bit of those things
(26:34):
that maybe subconscious and unconscious thoughts that you have from
time to time, and then you can kind of pull
them out and put them on the page and if again,
if they dubtail and they will work for the story,
then I think that's great. It's a little bit of
a relief valve, you know, to some extent, I think
that artists are able to kind of use that a
lot of people maybe don't have access to, and it potentially,
(26:55):
you know, it can be you know, maybe a negative
thing in their life if they don't have a way
to you know, kind of get some of this stuff out.
I think artists have them. It's very much like a
nice way to, uh, to kind of relieve some of
these things, these thoughts and these emotions in the back
of their head and you can kind of put it
on the page. Not that I haven't gotten looks from
my wife sometimes for like things that I've written and
she'll read it, she'll be like, Okay, we're not going
(27:18):
to discuss that. I'd be like, that's fine. What did
you know was it?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Was it good?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah? It was fine?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
You know that's so yeah, shout out to her. She's great. Yeah,
she's with your writing adventures because you're writing shenanigans. But
I agree with you. It's as artists, we're very fortunate
that we can get an outlet. And you're right, taking
(27:45):
something and exploring it with real life, you would never
want to do that. We like, well, writing, I could
do that over here and see what happens and where
does it go and I'll just feel it. Yeah, I
agree with that completely. That's so are the so are
there any aspects? Can we always say this? Most writers
say this, what part of you is in here? Right?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah? Let me think for a second here, because yeah,
it's I'm I'm unconscious of that. Most times I have
some of my editors come back and they'll tell me.
They'll point out in certain areas, especially if they're either
you know, people that know me pretty well, right, they'll say, oh,
you're writing about this that happened to you, or you're
writing about your son or your daughter or your wife.
And it's like, oh and then and then you've got
(28:31):
to step back from it a little bit and be like, oh,
I guess yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm going to say, uh,
some of images, Uh yeah, maybe paranoia or probably more accurately,
is that that insecurity? Uh, that that she feels kind
of the worry and the anxiety. You know, I suffer
from anxiety. I think you know, it's very common. A
(28:53):
lot of people do, even if they don't realize they
have anxiety, they suffer from it. And so I, yes,
I tapped into that personally some in in some of
those scenes where she's spiraling, she's thinking about things that
that she has no idea if they're true or real
or going to happen or not. And what's what's the
(29:16):
old saying is anxiety is anxiety is worrying about future,
and depression is sometimes worrying about the past or the present,
you know, and it's it's some of those things you know,
put put simply, so I think that's that's some of
the things that I identified with for her was was
the anxious, bound up feelings that you can get sometimes
(29:36):
when you start to wonder if something's going to happen
or if something bad's coming. Uh So that's kind of
what I tapped into, which is, you know, I hope
I hope those scenes came across because that's it is
kind of one of those uncomfortable moments where you, you know,
you dig down and put that on the page a
little bit. So so far, I've gotten pretty good feedback
(29:57):
from people who've mentioned that specif the thing. It's like, oh, yeah,
that that anxiety came through, and it's like, yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
There's my ask you before you wrap this. It's been wonderful.
What is the Edgar Award and how it and what
was like winning that.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah. Yeah, so the Edgar is kind of the you know,
I don't want to I don't make it sound you know,
pompous or anything, but it's it's kind of the top
for the genre award for like mystery and kind of suspense,
mostly mystery. So it's Edgar Allen pull Award since he
(30:36):
was technically, you know, the first mystery writer, you know,
the father the mystery basically. And so yeah, the Edgar
Awards are every year in New York. They do a
whole uh you know kind of party and and uh
give the awards out and whatnot. So yeah, I got
(30:57):
nominated for my novel or Else a couple of years back.
And or Else is one of my favorite books that
I've ever written. It was one of those books. It
was on the opposite end of the spectrum as far
as like we talked about books that are really hard
to write and that just you know, kind of like
you've got to wrestle it the whole way. Or Else.
It was one of those books that just felt like
(31:17):
it was beamed in and I just I was just
a channel for it and it just kind of came
out and I felt really good about the book, and
then for it to get nominated, I was just over
the moon because I was like, that's amazing. You know.
It's like I was in there with I think four
other nominees from my category for Best Best Paperback Original,
and I was like, you know, some some very talented
(31:39):
people on the on the list, and I was like,
this is this is wonderful, this is.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
This is great.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I don't I don't need to win. I got nominated.
This is amazing. So yeah, lo and behold, Awards night
came along. I wasn't able to go to New York,
but I had one of my editors was there because
there was a couple other people from our imprint nominate
and uh yeah, I get to watch the live stream
and Laura Littman, who was an amazing writer, she was
(32:05):
the one that was giving away the award from my category,
and I'm sitting there and she said my name and
my book and I I just sat there stunned for
a second because I actually had to look at my wife.
I said that just happened. You know, You're wondering if
you like maybe just projected it. You're like, oh, yeah,
they said my name, right, no they didn't. But yeah,
(32:28):
so yeah, it was just an absolute thrill and an honor.
It was. It was amazing outpouring from the community and
all these different people that reached out and said congratulations,
and yeah, it's been, it's been. It's been awesome. It's
it's it's such a like I said, it's just such
an honor seeing the other people that have been, you know,
awarded that and and to know that apparently they thought
(32:52):
I deserve to be among them. So that's it's awesome.
It's really really fun. It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So yeah, it's it's a trip. We don't you know,
we we don't do those for awards, and so to
get nominated for something, it really is truly to get nominated.
I've been nominated for I want a few things, not
a lot of a few things. And I do understand
it's kind of like, oh, okay, and and and folks,
it really is cliche. It's nicely not a lot of times.
Really is nice to be nominating if you think it is, Wow,
(33:18):
all the particulars. Think about this, folks, of the millions
of books that are out thousands of books that are
out there that yours got on the radar and then
someone if some people were voted, they picked it and
said that one.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's that special feeling, you know that,
it's like somebody noticed something that you did and thought
it was good, and yeah, it's just it's a nice feeling.
And it's like you said, it's it's to be recognized, and.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
You were You're right.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
We don't do this for that, but it is one
of those things that's every so often, if you're lucky,
it comes along and yeah, you just enjoy it because
it's yeah, it's an honor. So yeah, that was very cool,
very cool.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
But you should feel proud for this book too, Joe.
It's very it's well done. And I I but I
And it's funny because I guess I asked. I asked it.
Sometimes as I end the show, I'm like sequel, prequel
side but spin off. But I'm like, this is kind
of a prequel and as present day, it's like it's
both learning the past. And so I guess I don't
(34:20):
think I mean any anything. I know you're just releasing
I know you're releasing this, but most authors are working
on their next thing already. There's anything more kind from
this at all, or I just just right now, put
a bed right now, and that's it.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, I think it's done. It depends again, like I mean,
it's it always depends on the level of uh success
and how readers react to it. If if somebody wants
to know more. I think there is more of the
story potentially after the book ends.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I always you know, I always like to lead that
for the reader too, because I like the reader to
just sit and say, well, I think this happened then,
or you know, this had to have happened then, and
it's like that's that's great if you can, you know,
the reader can sit and think about that after the book,
because I love that when I close the book, you know,
there's that feeling you had a little bit of the
book hangover and you're thinking about characters afterwards, and it's
(35:12):
like that's then you know you've read something worthwhile. You
know that had a little bit of substance to it
and it kind of lingered with you. So, yeah, there's
there's more to this story. I think there could be something. Yeah,
so I guess we'll see. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Joehartbooks dot Com.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That's h A R. T.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
As in hearts uh Instagram, Joe on his score Heart
and Hiscore author Facebook, Joe Heart author. Make sure you
follow him in those places. The book, I said, whether
you're watching it now before it's out, is available for
pre sale. Where do that or get it? It's not already,
go get it. I become her a thriller. It really
(35:50):
is a thriller books Like I'm not joking. Thanks Joe
Harv for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Oh, thank you, appreciate great questions.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Thank you. And you want me to come back with
your next books, any books you can coming out. You
have an irritation back on the show.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Awesome, awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So folks I always end up with, you know, support
the arts. We do not band books. We don't believe
in that. Here. We believe in everyone having the freedom
to read what they want to read and write what
they want to write. There are a lot of authors
out there there are not super famous. We have amazing stories.
That's what I do here on the show. We're doing
this show for almost ten years. That's kind of the
(36:24):
reason why I do this show because I support authors
and people who are writers. You know, it's it's everybody
thinks they can do it, and many of my people
can do it. But it is it is a discipline,
and it is a world and for many writers, many
writers who are just unsung out there, who have amazing,
amazing stories they're telling like this one. So please support
(36:46):
the arts and again, any kind of arts, whether it's painting, dancing, music,
it's acting, whatever it is, even hosting things that I do,
hosting support. They say it's good. It's good in schools.
My grandkids went to art based schools and it made
them smarter in English and math and science and history.
It's been shown. And books are a world. They're not
(37:06):
going anywhere, whether it's audible or kindle or paring back
or herdback, they are not going anywhere. They teach other worlds.
And many times in the world we're in today, I
want to go somewhere else. The books take you to
do that. I'm James Jr. And we will talk to
you next Thursday with another audition. I we between the
payer for James LTT Junior
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