August 14, 2025 • 22 mins
In this episode, I spoke with author Ann Berman about her book "Louis Graveraet Kaufman: The Fabulous Michigan Gatsby Who Conquered Wall Street, Took Over General Motors, and Built the World's Tallest Building" This fascinating biography recounts the life and legacy of a titan of American banking, Louis Graveraet Kaufman (1870–1942). Also known as LG, he was a Gatsbyesque figure born in Michigan's Upper Peninsula who married into great wealth and then amassed far more of his own.
Under LG, New York's Chatham Phenix National Bank and Trust Company became one of the nation's largest banks and the first in New York to boast a network of branches. When he was denied entry into the exclusive, Protestant, old-money Huron Mountain Club, LG responded by building his own retreat: the world's largest log lodge, a 26,000-square-foot behemoth near Marquette, Michigan. Christened Granot Loma, it became the site of lavish Prohibition-era parties, attracting many celebrities who came in private rail cars to enjoy jazz and liquor chez Kaufman.
Under LG, New York's Chatham Phenix National Bank and Trust Company became one of the nation's largest banks and the first in New York to boast a network of branches. When he was denied entry into the exclusive, Protestant, old-money Huron Mountain Club, LG responded by building his own retreat: the world's largest log lodge, a 26,000-square-foot behemoth near Marquette, Michigan. Christened Granot Loma, it became the site of lavish Prohibition-era parties, attracting many celebrities who came in private rail cars to enjoy jazz and liquor chez Kaufman.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, everyone. I just want to welcome our special guest today,
Anne Berman, and she is here to talk about her book,
Louis Louis I'm gonna mess up to Kaufman, got it,
the fabulous Michigan gasbeid who conquered Wall Street, took over
(00:24):
General Motors, and built the world's tallest building. And welcome
to in between the.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Pages, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, we're happy that you agreed to come on and
spend a few minutes of your day to kind of
talk a little bit about the book. And first question
I just want to kind of really jump in and
ask you, is maybe share with the audience a little
bit about what this book is about.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I'd be happy to. This book tells the story of
Louis Graver Kaufman, a half Jewish, part indigenous jazz age
banker from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Kaufman went to
New York. He made a fortune, and he left behind
important structures, including the Empire State Building, for which he
(01:12):
was largely responsible, that remained part of the American cultural record.
I ran across the forgotten mister k quite unexpectedly a
few years back, and the more I learned about him,
the more fascinated I became. He had a big hand
in the early trajectory of general motors, for example, and
the Gatsby reference in the book's title is a nod
(01:34):
to the weekend long parties he gave at his fabulous
lodge on the shore of Lake Superior. All in all,
an interesting guy.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Absolutely. I mean it seems like he was a little
bit into everything.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well that's true, especially real estate, because not only did
he have this lodge, which was twenty six thousand square
feet and by the way, it still exists. Oh yeah, yep,
it's it's in private hands. And the upper Peninsula of Michigan.
You know how the Michigan is. It has the you know,
(02:13):
the lower Peninsula looks like, and then it has that
sort of area up above north of Canada, really near
Lake Superior, very sparsely populated, a very very interesting place
to be from.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Oh absolutely, And you know, maybe kind of tell us
a little bit more how you got involved and what
really kind of prompted you to write a book. I
know you said, the more you come into him, the
more interesting. But what really kind of prompted you to say,
let's go ahead and write a book. About it.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, it was when I saw the lodge. I was
a magazine writer and I came to this lodge it's
called Granite Loma, to do it for Architectural Digest. And
I wrote a piece about it an Architectural Digest. And
the guy that owned the lodge starts telling me about
the person who built it. And he's telling me all
these stories about, you know, what he did with General
(03:09):
Motors in the Empire State Building. And I thought, boy, someday,
when I have more time, I'm coming back to this
and I'm going to write a biography. And it took
a minute, but I finally did it, and it was
It was such an interesting story. You know, he got
sort of plucked out of the out of the Upper
Peninsula by elber Gary, the head of US Steel, to
(03:33):
run a bank in New York. He didn't go to college.
He was kind of a financial savant. I mean, you know,
from the minute he got into the banking business, he
knew what to do. It was very odd actually, because
you know, no one sort of knows how you have
that kind of talent came to New York. He just
crushed it and he made the bank huge and successful
(03:54):
and he was in the paper every day. Well anyway,
that was the beginning.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, very interesting, And to me, he's kind of like
a forgotten businessman because you know Henry Ford and what
he did from Michigan, and you've got JP Morgan and
you've got Andrew. I can't even talk uhe Carnegie, thank you.
I got some guide there, and you have Melon from
(04:22):
Pittsburgh in the New York area. But you know, it
is kind of a name that's been forgotten. But yet
he really provided.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Absolutely right. And I guess I would have to admit
that my guy is kind of a one hit wonder,
meaning that you know, all those other guys you talked about,
their reputation and their families went on for several generations.
What happened to my guy, to Kaufman is the Depression
(04:55):
hit and the Empire State Building, which in New York
at that time was called the Empty State Building because
nobody wanted to rent it. In nineteen thirty one, when
it opened, it took down his bank, which was taken
over by Manufacturer's Bank in nineteen thirty one, and his
(05:17):
kids really didn't come up behind him with businesses of
their own. I think what's interesting about him though, besides
the Empire State Building, which really was his creation along
with one other guy, John Jay Raskoff. If you go
to the Empire State Building today and you go in
the lobby and you see that famous Art Deco plaque,
(05:38):
Louis Kaufman's name is right in the middle of it.
I mean, he really was the guy. And not only that,
but as I say, this lodge in Michigan is considered
the great Adirondack style lodge in this country. It's a
really famous place. And then he also built six twenty
five Park Avenue, which is a beautiful apartment building on
(05:59):
the corner sixty fifth in Park and it's kind of
an interesting story. I think why he built it, you know,
in nineteen twenty nine, even though Kaufman was only half Jewish,
if you had a name like Kaufman, you might not be.
It's so easy to rent on Park Avenue in nineteen
twenty nine, right, And there were several very wealthy Jewish
(06:21):
families who rolled their own you know, they built their
own buildings. The Macy's department store family did that, and
I think old luisg did that too. And he built
six twenty five Park and on the top was a
fabulous triplex apartment, three stories, twenty eight rooms on the
(06:41):
first floor. Wow, and that's still there. It's still there.
So his real estate is kind of still part, as
I say, of the cultural Restorp. He might have disappeared,
but what he left behind was pretty important story.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, we still talk about general motors today. We still
talk about the State Building.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Maybe talk a little bit, you know, on Park Avenue
that's famous in New York, you know in terms of
that with its synopsis with money and power, you know,
when we talk about Park Avenue. But we'll need somebody
to have a vision. You said, he didn't go to school,
so he had no formal education that we would talking
about today. But how does a man like that have
(07:28):
the vision to build a building like the Empire State Building?
I always find that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, it was kind of an interesting story. He ended
up owning the land under which the Empire State Building
was constructed at thirty fourth and Fifth Avenue. His bank
foreclosed on somebody who was trying to buy it to
develop it. The bank ends up owning the land. He
(07:56):
ends up owning the land and John Jay Raskobb, who's
the other guy who built the Empire State Building comes
to him and says, you know, I think we should
build the tallest building in the world, he says, And
he had lots of reasons for wanting to do that,
but you have to read the book to find out why,
and they were interesting. So he comes to Louis Kaufman
(08:18):
and he says, how about it. And you know, another
banker who had no experience with real estate might have said, well, no,
you know, I'm not going to do that. You know,
chase my tail like that, you go and build the
tallest building in the world. But he said, you know,
I think that's a great idea, and the two of
(08:39):
them did it. I think he thought that it was
going to be a monument to himself and to the bank,
which was called the Chatham Phoenix, which we've never heard
of because he disappeared in nineteen thirty one. Nope, no
one's ever heard of. It disappeared in nineteen thirty one.
But you know, it was one of the ten biggest
banks in the country during his reign. It was it
(09:00):
was big anyway, and that was So that was the
story of the Empire State Building and his decision to
do that.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I mean, it's just really, you know, mind boggling that
he would have the courage, the vision, whatever word you
want to throw out there, to do that, because, like
you said, probably anybody that was in their right mind
would have probably passed on it and said, probably not
something I want to stick my neck out on. And
(09:29):
he did. And I guess it's kind of twofold. One.
It kind of hurt him because then we have the
Great Depression and the downfall. But number two, it's a
lasting testimony to him that nobody ever remembers that who
built it.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You know, you're you're right, and I, as I do
say in the book, and I can certainly share this.
He kind of had a way with everything he did
of organizing everything behind the scenes and then sort of
stepped out from behind the curtain when things were a success.
And unfortunately for him, he died before the Empire State
(10:08):
Building made any money. He died in nineteen forty two,
and the Empire State Building really was still not solvent
at that point, although it was during the war and
I think it was starting the economy was starting to
pick up. But he really so he never really stepped behind,
you know, from from the curtain and said, hey, this
was my building. And that's one of the reasons that
(10:28):
he's that he's been forgotten.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, well also has a lot. Yeah, I'm trying to interrupt,
but I would also say he had a little bit
of competition with the Rocketfelt Center.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, that's true, that was going on at the same time. Yeah,
Rockefeller is a big name.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Absolutely, that's the name that hasn't been forgotten.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I call that's really true.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And both of them still survived today and as part
of the New York landscape.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
That's right. The other thing about this family is that
they were very social. You know, there's all this stuff
in this in this book about debutante parties and presentations
at court. And they had a horse that was was slate.
They what's the word, was supposed to be the favorite
(11:18):
in the Kentucky Derby and wife had jewels, and they
had a villa and palm beach and they were judging
dance contests, you know, the Charleston and it was oh
and he and at Granted Loma, he had a gentleman's farm.
He had a farm where you know where he was
sort of trying to outdo other millionaires at county fairs
(11:39):
with the best milk and the best chicken. So all
that money. It was a lot of fun. The parties
at Granted Loma. Lots of celebrities at the time, Fred Astaire,
Lionel Barrymore, Mary Pickford came up from Chicago and private
rail cars. Yeah, that was like the private jet of
(12:02):
the time, you know, except that they except it had
a name like Wanderer instead of a tail number.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Oh my gosh, that's great. So during the writing and
the research of this book, what surprised you about Kaufman anything, Well, just.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
What you've already said and you pointed it out. He
really came from nothing, you know. He was some kind
of weird financial savant who knew just seemed to know
how to do it. He took over the bank in
his hometown, he went to New York, you know, he
just crushed it. He just seemed to know how to
do it. So that was kind of fascinating. It was
(12:42):
interesting to see how somebody with a Jewish last name
kind of navigated the nineteen twenties and got to the
top of the social poll, even though that could be
a little bit of a drag on him. And see
what else surprised me. He certainly interacted with a lot
(13:06):
of famous people, but again you have to read the
book for that one. People.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Well, you know, it doesn't hurt when you have money.
You know, money kind of attracts other money in that
process in terms that you know, one thing that you
said was kind of interesting is you said that his kids,
his family never really kind of branched out on their own.
So are we led to believe that they and you
(13:34):
see this a lot of times, where was he hard
on his kids and was trying to get them and
they just didn't have no interest or you know, I
kind of think the Vanderbilt question good questions. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I think I think the mother, Marie was hard on
them and that she really expected them all to marry
fancy schmancy people, the fancy or the better. And one
of them did, she immediately divorced him and then married
one of the family servants. And that is what the
kids did. They married a passle of people who the
(14:12):
mother wasn't so keen on, including a cowboy who one
of them who married the cowboy twice, divorced him and
then married him again, and also an undertaker and a
waiter at a London hotel I could go on. You know,
they did not marry people, and I think that was
(14:32):
something that they did in response to the mom kind
of pushing them in that direction. And they brought up
with lots of money and not expected to make their
own way. And what that does happen in many families absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You know, one that I kind of think of is
the Vanderbilts. You know, if you read that family, they
kind of lived off of dad for lack of a
better way.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, in terms of that, and I kind of give
the same impression, you know with the Kauffmans that the
kids kind of just didn't feel like they need to
or they wasn't really pushed even though you said mom
kind of pushed them, maybe pushed them too hard to
where they actually went the other way.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, a lot of them were girls also in the twenties,
you know, in the thirties, yes, yeah, yeah, there were
there were a couple of boys. One of them did
go into banking, one of them died young, and one
of them was really off the rails.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Wow. Yeah, it which is too bad, uh in terms
of that. So with that, we really haven't talked too
much about general Motors. Maybe we could just that just
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
What was his Yeah, absolutely, it's a little hard to
explain lots of business stuff, but to do the best
I can here. William Durant founded General Motors and by
nineteen fifteen, I think he'd lost it. He made it
(16:11):
too big, too fast, and some bankers were running it,
and he really wanted it back, and he sort of
partnered with Louis Graver Kaufman, who he didn't know before.
Even though they were both from Michigan, they had never
met until they met in New York, and Kaufman kind
of crafted this plan to get enough of the company
(16:34):
back control of the company back. And one of the
ways that he did it, and have to read the
book again for this, is to bring the DuPont family
into General Motors. Now, I don't think you're from Detroit, right,
Not from Detroit? Okay, I am so. I knew this
in my cradle, But the DuPonts ran General Motors from
(16:56):
the twenties to the fifties. The DuPonts were a really
big part of twentieth century General Motors, and it was
Louis Kaufman who brought them in because they were yeah,
because they were clients of his bank and he was
very familiar with them. And in fact, that's also the
(17:16):
people that he built the Empire State Building with. They
were the other financiers of the Empire State Building, the DuPonts. Anyway,
so Durant got General Motors back, but then the Kaufmans
were already excuse me, the DuPonts were already in and
when Durant flamed out again, which he did in nineteen twenty,
(17:37):
the DuPonts took over and they ran the company to
the nineteen fifties. So that really did change the trajectory
of that company, and that was because of Louis Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Wow. He kind of opened the door for the pont family,
the DuPonts, Yes, yes, to really take control. Wow. Yes,
very fascinating in terms of that.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And it was interesting, you know, he hadn't had any
thing to do with the automobile industry until he partners
with Durant. All of a sudden, the newspapers are looking
to him to be a spokesperson for the automobile industry,
and he's saying things like, well, I think the automobile
is a very good thing for women they can get
out of the house, you know that sort of thing.
(18:18):
This guy was in the paper every day, I mean
every day. They loved him.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
That was he kind of a flamboyant, flashy individual that
had to cure himself speak or was that just part
of his personality and the press just kind of loved him.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I think that he wasn't flashy exactly, but I think
he was a good talker, and I think they knew
that if they went to him, he would say something
that would be helpful to.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Them and help sell newspapers. And he was good for
a good.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Quill help sell newspapers.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
That's it. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Today we have to sell books, then we had to
sell newspapers.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yes, yeah, is that well man? And thank you so much.
I know we're getting close here on time, but I
wanted to kind of give you a chance to maybe
give us some parting words and thoughts about Kaufman and
his legacy. And you know what's really interesting today is
even though he kind of crashed, if you will, with
(19:18):
the with the Great Depression in terms of that hit
and he's not a household name, he's still being having
an impact with general motors and the Empire State Building
all these years later, which is really fascinating.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And as I say, also granted Loma,
this lodge in Michigan, and six twenty five Park Avenue,
which is a beautiful and elegant apartment building with what
people say is the greatest pre war apartment in New
York on top that huge triplex. Those were all things
that he produced. And even though the family kind of
(19:58):
disappeared and was read mutation sort of disappeared, these are
things that remain that the Empire State Building, six twenty
five Park, granted Loma, they remain, and they're They're all
of them kind of beautiful and important. And I do
think when if people pick up the book and read
(20:19):
read his story, I think they're going to be pretty interested.
It's it's kind of wild.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Actually, Yeah, well, you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. Obviously,
we do these podcasts and we're always looking for guests
and subject matters and the title even though it's very long,
and we kind of joked about this very long you know,
off the air before we were recording, but it was,
you know a couple of those things. I one had
(20:46):
not heard of him Kaufman before and number two, you know,
conquering Wall Street, took control General Motors, built the world's
tallest building. I mean that was something that kind of
really jumped at me. And I'm like, I've got to
know more about who this individual is. That he's done
all these great things, but yet nobody's heard of it.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
We be part Jewish and part Native American.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, add that into the mix too, and it's like, wa,
a really interesting individual and it's really a shame that
more people don't know who he is.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, I hope that soon they will, that is my wish.
I certainly enjoyed writing this book. He just got more
interesting with everything I found out about him, and I'm
so happy to share this with you and hope to
share it with many readers.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Absolutely. Before we go, we also want to thank Wayne
State University Press that they are your publisher.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
They are, They were wonderful.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Absolutely, and we thank them for giving us a copy
of the book, and thank you so much for coming
on and to our reader or our listeners, excuse me,
please go out and get a copy of the book.
You're not going to be disappointed. You can either go
out to Wing State University Press website in order of
the book, or you can go out and purchase it
wherever you purchase your books. But you're not going to
(22:06):
be disappointed. And thank you so much for coming on.
It's thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I enjoyed it very much.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
All right, Well, thank you for listening to this episode
of In Between the Pages, and we'll see you soon.
Hello, everyone. I just want to welcome our special guest today,
Anne Berman, and she is here to talk about her book,
Louis Louis I'm gonna mess up to Kaufman, got it,
the fabulous Michigan gasbeid who conquered Wall Street, took over
(00:24):
General Motors, and built the world's tallest building. And welcome
to in between the.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Pages, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, we're happy that you agreed to come on and
spend a few minutes of your day to kind of
talk a little bit about the book. And first question
I just want to kind of really jump in and
ask you, is maybe share with the audience a little
bit about what this book is about.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I'd be happy to. This book tells the story of
Louis Graver Kaufman, a half Jewish, part indigenous jazz age
banker from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Kaufman went to
New York. He made a fortune, and he left behind
important structures, including the Empire State Building, for which he
(01:12):
was largely responsible, that remained part of the American cultural record.
I ran across the forgotten mister k quite unexpectedly a
few years back, and the more I learned about him,
the more fascinated I became. He had a big hand
in the early trajectory of general motors, for example, and
the Gatsby reference in the book's title is a nod
(01:34):
to the weekend long parties he gave at his fabulous
lodge on the shore of Lake Superior. All in all,
an interesting guy.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Absolutely. I mean it seems like he was a little
bit into everything.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well that's true, especially real estate, because not only did
he have this lodge, which was twenty six thousand square
feet and by the way, it still exists. Oh yeah, yep,
it's it's in private hands. And the upper Peninsula of Michigan.
You know how the Michigan is. It has the you know,
(02:13):
the lower Peninsula looks like, and then it has that
sort of area up above north of Canada, really near
Lake Superior, very sparsely populated, a very very interesting place
to be from.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Oh absolutely, And you know, maybe kind of tell us
a little bit more how you got involved and what
really kind of prompted you to write a book. I
know you said, the more you come into him, the
more interesting. But what really kind of prompted you to say,
let's go ahead and write a book. About it.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, it was when I saw the lodge. I was
a magazine writer and I came to this lodge it's
called Granite Loma, to do it for Architectural Digest. And
I wrote a piece about it an Architectural Digest. And
the guy that owned the lodge starts telling me about
the person who built it. And he's telling me all
these stories about, you know, what he did with General
(03:09):
Motors in the Empire State Building. And I thought, boy, someday,
when I have more time, I'm coming back to this
and I'm going to write a biography. And it took
a minute, but I finally did it, and it was
It was such an interesting story. You know, he got
sort of plucked out of the out of the Upper
Peninsula by elber Gary, the head of US Steel, to
(03:33):
run a bank in New York. He didn't go to college.
He was kind of a financial savant. I mean, you know,
from the minute he got into the banking business, he
knew what to do. It was very odd actually, because
you know, no one sort of knows how you have
that kind of talent came to New York. He just
crushed it and he made the bank huge and successful
(03:54):
and he was in the paper every day. Well anyway,
that was the beginning.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, very interesting, And to me, he's kind of like
a forgotten businessman because you know Henry Ford and what
he did from Michigan, and you've got JP Morgan and
you've got Andrew. I can't even talk uhe Carnegie, thank you.
I got some guide there, and you have Melon from
(04:22):
Pittsburgh in the New York area. But you know, it
is kind of a name that's been forgotten. But yet
he really provided.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Absolutely right. And I guess I would have to admit
that my guy is kind of a one hit wonder,
meaning that you know, all those other guys you talked about,
their reputation and their families went on for several generations.
What happened to my guy, to Kaufman is the Depression
(04:55):
hit and the Empire State Building, which in New York
at that time was called the Empty State Building because
nobody wanted to rent it. In nineteen thirty one, when
it opened, it took down his bank, which was taken
over by Manufacturer's Bank in nineteen thirty one, and his
(05:17):
kids really didn't come up behind him with businesses of
their own. I think what's interesting about him though, besides
the Empire State Building, which really was his creation along
with one other guy, John Jay Raskoff. If you go
to the Empire State Building today and you go in
the lobby and you see that famous Art Deco plaque,
(05:38):
Louis Kaufman's name is right in the middle of it.
I mean, he really was the guy. And not only that,
but as I say, this lodge in Michigan is considered
the great Adirondack style lodge in this country. It's a
really famous place. And then he also built six twenty
five Park Avenue, which is a beautiful apartment building on
(05:59):
the corner sixty fifth in Park and it's kind of
an interesting story. I think why he built it, you know,
in nineteen twenty nine, even though Kaufman was only half Jewish,
if you had a name like Kaufman, you might not be.
It's so easy to rent on Park Avenue in nineteen
twenty nine, right, And there were several very wealthy Jewish
(06:21):
families who rolled their own you know, they built their
own buildings. The Macy's department store family did that, and
I think old luisg did that too. And he built
six twenty five Park and on the top was a
fabulous triplex apartment, three stories, twenty eight rooms on the
(06:41):
first floor. Wow, and that's still there. It's still there.
So his real estate is kind of still part, as
I say, of the cultural Restorp. He might have disappeared,
but what he left behind was pretty important story.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, we still talk about general motors today. We still
talk about the State Building.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Maybe talk a little bit, you know, on Park Avenue
that's famous in New York, you know in terms of
that with its synopsis with money and power, you know,
when we talk about Park Avenue. But we'll need somebody
to have a vision. You said, he didn't go to school,
so he had no formal education that we would talking
about today. But how does a man like that have
(07:28):
the vision to build a building like the Empire State Building?
I always find that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, it was kind of an interesting story. He ended
up owning the land under which the Empire State Building
was constructed at thirty fourth and Fifth Avenue. His bank
foreclosed on somebody who was trying to buy it to
develop it. The bank ends up owning the land. He
(07:56):
ends up owning the land and John Jay Raskobb, who's
the other guy who built the Empire State Building comes
to him and says, you know, I think we should
build the tallest building in the world, he says, And
he had lots of reasons for wanting to do that,
but you have to read the book to find out why,
and they were interesting. So he comes to Louis Kaufman
(08:18):
and he says, how about it. And you know, another
banker who had no experience with real estate might have said, well, no,
you know, I'm not going to do that. You know,
chase my tail like that, you go and build the
tallest building in the world. But he said, you know,
I think that's a great idea, and the two of
(08:39):
them did it. I think he thought that it was
going to be a monument to himself and to the bank,
which was called the Chatham Phoenix, which we've never heard
of because he disappeared in nineteen thirty one. Nope, no
one's ever heard of. It disappeared in nineteen thirty one.
But you know, it was one of the ten biggest
banks in the country during his reign. It was it
(09:00):
was big anyway, and that was So that was the
story of the Empire State Building and his decision to
do that.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I mean, it's just really, you know, mind boggling that
he would have the courage, the vision, whatever word you
want to throw out there, to do that, because, like
you said, probably anybody that was in their right mind
would have probably passed on it and said, probably not
something I want to stick my neck out on. And
(09:29):
he did. And I guess it's kind of twofold. One.
It kind of hurt him because then we have the
Great Depression and the downfall. But number two, it's a
lasting testimony to him that nobody ever remembers that who
built it.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You know, you're you're right, and I, as I do
say in the book, and I can certainly share this.
He kind of had a way with everything he did
of organizing everything behind the scenes and then sort of
stepped out from behind the curtain when things were a success.
And unfortunately for him, he died before the Empire State
(10:08):
Building made any money. He died in nineteen forty two,
and the Empire State Building really was still not solvent
at that point, although it was during the war and
I think it was starting the economy was starting to
pick up. But he really so he never really stepped behind,
you know, from from the curtain and said, hey, this
was my building. And that's one of the reasons that
(10:28):
he's that he's been forgotten.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, well also has a lot. Yeah, I'm trying to interrupt,
but I would also say he had a little bit
of competition with the Rocketfelt Center.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, that's true, that was going on at the same time. Yeah,
Rockefeller is a big name.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Absolutely, that's the name that hasn't been forgotten.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I call that's really true.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And both of them still survived today and as part
of the New York landscape.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
That's right. The other thing about this family is that
they were very social. You know, there's all this stuff
in this in this book about debutante parties and presentations
at court. And they had a horse that was was slate.
They what's the word, was supposed to be the favorite
(11:18):
in the Kentucky Derby and wife had jewels, and they
had a villa and palm beach and they were judging
dance contests, you know, the Charleston and it was oh
and he and at Granted Loma, he had a gentleman's farm.
He had a farm where you know where he was
sort of trying to outdo other millionaires at county fairs
(11:39):
with the best milk and the best chicken. So all
that money. It was a lot of fun. The parties
at Granted Loma. Lots of celebrities at the time, Fred Astaire,
Lionel Barrymore, Mary Pickford came up from Chicago and private
rail cars. Yeah, that was like the private jet of
(12:02):
the time, you know, except that they except it had
a name like Wanderer instead of a tail number.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Oh my gosh, that's great. So during the writing and
the research of this book, what surprised you about Kaufman anything, Well, just.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
What you've already said and you pointed it out. He
really came from nothing, you know. He was some kind
of weird financial savant who knew just seemed to know
how to do it. He took over the bank in
his hometown, he went to New York, you know, he
just crushed it. He just seemed to know how to
do it. So that was kind of fascinating. It was
(12:42):
interesting to see how somebody with a Jewish last name
kind of navigated the nineteen twenties and got to the
top of the social poll, even though that could be
a little bit of a drag on him. And see
what else surprised me. He certainly interacted with a lot
(13:06):
of famous people, but again you have to read the
book for that one. People.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Well, you know, it doesn't hurt when you have money.
You know, money kind of attracts other money in that
process in terms that you know, one thing that you
said was kind of interesting is you said that his kids,
his family never really kind of branched out on their own.
So are we led to believe that they and you
(13:34):
see this a lot of times, where was he hard
on his kids and was trying to get them and
they just didn't have no interest or you know, I
kind of think the Vanderbilt question good questions. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I think I think the mother, Marie was hard on
them and that she really expected them all to marry
fancy schmancy people, the fancy or the better. And one
of them did, she immediately divorced him and then married
one of the family servants. And that is what the
kids did. They married a passle of people who the
(14:12):
mother wasn't so keen on, including a cowboy who one
of them who married the cowboy twice, divorced him and
then married him again, and also an undertaker and a
waiter at a London hotel I could go on. You know,
they did not marry people, and I think that was
(14:32):
something that they did in response to the mom kind
of pushing them in that direction. And they brought up
with lots of money and not expected to make their
own way. And what that does happen in many families absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You know, one that I kind of think of is
the Vanderbilts. You know, if you read that family, they
kind of lived off of dad for lack of a
better way.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, in terms of that, and I kind of give
the same impression, you know with the Kauffmans that the
kids kind of just didn't feel like they need to
or they wasn't really pushed even though you said mom
kind of pushed them, maybe pushed them too hard to
where they actually went the other way.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, a lot of them were girls also in the twenties,
you know, in the thirties, yes, yeah, yeah, there were
there were a couple of boys. One of them did
go into banking, one of them died young, and one
of them was really off the rails.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Wow. Yeah, it which is too bad, uh in terms
of that. So with that, we really haven't talked too
much about general Motors. Maybe we could just that just
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
What was his Yeah, absolutely, it's a little hard to
explain lots of business stuff, but to do the best
I can here. William Durant founded General Motors and by
nineteen fifteen, I think he'd lost it. He made it
(16:11):
too big, too fast, and some bankers were running it,
and he really wanted it back, and he sort of
partnered with Louis Graver Kaufman, who he didn't know before.
Even though they were both from Michigan, they had never
met until they met in New York, and Kaufman kind
of crafted this plan to get enough of the company
(16:34):
back control of the company back. And one of the
ways that he did it, and have to read the
book again for this, is to bring the DuPont family
into General Motors. Now, I don't think you're from Detroit, right,
Not from Detroit? Okay, I am so. I knew this
in my cradle, But the DuPonts ran General Motors from
(16:56):
the twenties to the fifties. The DuPonts were a really
big part of twentieth century General Motors, and it was
Louis Kaufman who brought them in because they were yeah,
because they were clients of his bank and he was
very familiar with them. And in fact, that's also the
(17:16):
people that he built the Empire State Building with. They
were the other financiers of the Empire State Building, the DuPonts. Anyway,
so Durant got General Motors back, but then the Kaufmans
were already excuse me, the DuPonts were already in and
when Durant flamed out again, which he did in nineteen twenty,
(17:37):
the DuPonts took over and they ran the company to
the nineteen fifties. So that really did change the trajectory
of that company, and that was because of Louis Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Wow. He kind of opened the door for the pont family,
the DuPonts, Yes, yes, to really take control. Wow. Yes,
very fascinating in terms of that.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And it was interesting, you know, he hadn't had any
thing to do with the automobile industry until he partners
with Durant. All of a sudden, the newspapers are looking
to him to be a spokesperson for the automobile industry,
and he's saying things like, well, I think the automobile
is a very good thing for women they can get
out of the house, you know that sort of thing.
(18:18):
This guy was in the paper every day, I mean
every day. They loved him.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
That was he kind of a flamboyant, flashy individual that
had to cure himself speak or was that just part
of his personality and the press just kind of loved him.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I think that he wasn't flashy exactly, but I think
he was a good talker, and I think they knew
that if they went to him, he would say something
that would be helpful to.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Them and help sell newspapers. And he was good for
a good.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Quill help sell newspapers.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
That's it. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Today we have to sell books, then we had to
sell newspapers.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yes, yeah, is that well man? And thank you so much.
I know we're getting close here on time, but I
wanted to kind of give you a chance to maybe
give us some parting words and thoughts about Kaufman and
his legacy. And you know what's really interesting today is
even though he kind of crashed, if you will, with
(19:18):
the with the Great Depression in terms of that hit
and he's not a household name, he's still being having
an impact with general motors and the Empire State Building
all these years later, which is really fascinating.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And as I say, also granted Loma,
this lodge in Michigan, and six twenty five Park Avenue,
which is a beautiful and elegant apartment building with what
people say is the greatest pre war apartment in New
York on top that huge triplex. Those were all things
that he produced. And even though the family kind of
(19:58):
disappeared and was read mutation sort of disappeared, these are
things that remain that the Empire State Building, six twenty
five Park, granted Loma, they remain, and they're They're all
of them kind of beautiful and important. And I do
think when if people pick up the book and read
(20:19):
read his story, I think they're going to be pretty interested.
It's it's kind of wild.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Actually, Yeah, well, you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. Obviously,
we do these podcasts and we're always looking for guests
and subject matters and the title even though it's very long,
and we kind of joked about this very long you know,
off the air before we were recording, but it was,
you know a couple of those things. I one had
(20:46):
not heard of him Kaufman before and number two, you know,
conquering Wall Street, took control General Motors, built the world's
tallest building. I mean that was something that kind of
really jumped at me. And I'm like, I've got to
know more about who this individual is. That he's done
all these great things, but yet nobody's heard of it.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
We be part Jewish and part Native American.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, add that into the mix too, and it's like, wa,
a really interesting individual and it's really a shame that
more people don't know who he is.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, I hope that soon they will, that is my wish.
I certainly enjoyed writing this book. He just got more
interesting with everything I found out about him, and I'm
so happy to share this with you and hope to
share it with many readers.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Absolutely. Before we go, we also want to thank Wayne
State University Press that they are your publisher.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
They are, They were wonderful.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Absolutely, and we thank them for giving us a copy
of the book, and thank you so much for coming
on and to our reader or our listeners, excuse me,
please go out and get a copy of the book.
You're not going to be disappointed. You can either go
out to Wing State University Press website in order of
the book, or you can go out and purchase it
wherever you purchase your books. But you're not going to
(22:06):
be disappointed. And thank you so much for coming on.
It's thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I enjoyed it very much.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
All right, Well, thank you for listening to this episode
of In Between the Pages, and we'll see you soon.
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