June 19, 2025 • 22 mins
This episode its Host Doug Hess taking the lead.
"Interstate '85: The Royals, The Cardinals and the Show Me World Series"w/Marshall Garvey
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"Interstate '85: The Royals, The Cardinals and the Show Me World Series"w/Marshall Garvey
In Between The Pages with James Lott Jr is on Facebook!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
In Between the Pages with Doug His. In Between the
Pages with Doug His.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello everybody, and again welcome back to in Between the Pages.
And today we have a very special guest with us,
Marshall Garvey, and he is here to talk about Interstate
eighty five, the Royals, the Cardinals and the show Me
World Series. Here we are in the middle of summer spring,
going into summer, and it's baseball season and we're going
(00:57):
to take you back in time to the year nineteen
eighty five. But first of all, Marshall, welcome to in
Between the Pages.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Thank you very much for having me. I'm glad to
be here.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Ah well, thank you for taking some time out of
your busy schedule to talk to us about this, your book,
Interstate eighty five. And you know, one of the first
questions I always loved to allow authors when we have
guests on is to kind of give a quick overview
of what the book's about.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So the book is about the nineteen eighty five World
Series between the Kansas City Royals and Saint Louis Cardinals,
which of course is most famously known for umpire Dondakinger's
blown call in Game six. That's especially a big grievance
that's held a lot by generations of Saint Louis Cardinals fans.
But my point with the book was to show that
there was far more to that series than just the call.
(01:48):
Lots of overlook stories from lots of great players, including
players you might have forgotten about who had just amazing tales,
and also what it meant to the state of Missouri
and just what a unique scene it was in every way,
and I think the book shows that, and with flying
color how special it was. In addition to detailing the call,
I didn't gloss that overall.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Didn't leave that out, or you probably would have been
booed off off the stage anyways, right for eliminating that
in the book. Well, you know, Marshall, maybe talk a
little bit about so at the beginning of the season.
You know, if you're a baseball fan like I am,
and I'm sure you are as well, we all have
our thoughts at the beginning of the season, right when
(02:33):
they go to pre season and they go to camp
and everybody still has that hope that they're still going
to make the World Series come October. But maybe talk
a little bit about that early spring of eighty five
where's was there that belief that the Royals and the
(02:54):
Cardinals were going to make it in the World Series.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
That's a great question. It really wasn't a whole lot
of hype for either team, especially on the Cardinals side.
Believe it or not, the Cardinals were actually picked by
a few publications to finish dead last in the National
League East. The Royals were coming off of having made
the playoffs in eighty four, so there's definitely anticipation that
they would do well. I think that they would be
(03:19):
a contender, but I don't think a lot of people
were thinking Royals will win the World Series this year,
especially because the defending champions were the Detroit Tigers, who
were just an absolute monster in eighty four. So I
don't think there's a whole lot of hype for either
of both teams going into the season. But that's part
of what makes them meeting up ultimately more interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
In the end. Yeah, exactly. You know, like I said,
you know, whoever your team is, there's always that high
expectation going into spring ball that oh my gosh, this
could be the year to get things turned around. But
there's a lot of things that happen, you know, there's injuries,
there's trades that happened within players just go into slumps
(04:01):
as well, even the best in terms of that. So,
like you said, it's really hard to really look into
that crystal ball and maybe a little bit more fun than.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Anything absolutely, And you're right, that's the fun of it,
you know, it's in baseball. I think it can be
the most unpredictable sport. You know, you think you you
think you can prognosticate, you know what team is going
to be the next dynasty, right, you know, and use
and I'm cool with analytics and advanced abra metrics to
(04:32):
measure everything in advance. But there's always there can always
be that precarious, you know, unpredictable factor to it. And
that's that's fun.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And that's the human factor, like we said, people going
into slums or getting hurt, et cetera, et cetera. You
kind of alluded to this at the very beginning that
there was some stories behind the scenes that was going
on throughout the season. Maybe kind of talk a little
bit about what each franchise I was was was going
(05:03):
during that season that run.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Uh could you say that again? I cut a little
bit there, what they were like what they were going
through during the season.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yes, absolutely a little bit. What what the clubhouse was
going through through the season. I mean, uh, was there
a particular time when both teams said, hey, we may
have a shot of going into the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Well, that's a good question. It kind of differs for
both teams. With the Cardinals, I think you could basically
point to, uh, spring training before the season even began.
A Cardinals reliever and current announcer for them, Ricky Horton,
told me manager Whitey Herzog called together a meeting during
spring training and he just told everyone, Look, here's how
we're going to win this year. You know, we're going
(05:47):
to do it with speed, We're gonna do it with pitching.
We're going to do it with you know, defense and
contact hitting. And I think right then and there, even
though it would take a few months for the Cardinals
to really gel, he laid out that vision. And so
I think once that really came together, you know, they
called up Vince Coleman in April, and he was the
big rookie sensation, stole all the bases, really got the
(06:08):
offense going. John Tudor got his change up working and
pitch better. I think that was basically it for the Royals.
Their moment was more in the second half. They were
actually trailing the Angels by a wide margin seven and
a half games at the All Star break, and you
gotta be thinking, oh, the season's cooked. But Mark Gubizad
told me that the veterans, the veteran leaders like George Brett,
(06:32):
Frank White, Helmuc Cray just kept everyone stable, like, hey,
we're fine, we always do better in the second half.
In fact, actually there's even one more specific moment. This
is in the book and Royals Captured. Jim Sunberg told
me the moment the big you know, the big speech.
Sometimes you expect a team slumping to have an emotional speech,
(06:52):
like Edgar Entia for the twenty ten Giants or Chris
Carpenter for the twenty eleven Cardinals. Jim Sunberg told me
that he and George Orda were just doing a postgame shave,
and George Orda and its thick Mexican accent, was just like, well,
tell you here, Jim, one thing, we are going to
win this thing. And that was it. Like that that
alone just previewed that the Royals would come back and
(07:15):
win the division and they did.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah. So during the writing and the research of this book,
what surprised you, if anything?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Oh, a lot of things. Well, I mean there are
so many great stories and things that I learned about
the regular season in playoffs, and then the World Series itself,
and then the history after. I would say the biggest surprise,
the biggest revelation, And this is something I really emphasized
to illustrate that Thankinger's call wasn't the only thing that mattered.
(07:46):
There was actually a blown call earlier in that same game,
Game six of the World Series, that cost the Royals
to run. And when I first heard about it, I thought, oh,
is this what Royals fans tell themselves? It's like, this
is the excuse. Then I watched the game and no,
it's true. The ABC announcers even emphasized it and replayed
it like, Yeah, there was a loan call in the
(08:07):
fourth that would have allowed the Royals to go up
one nothing and that could have changed the course of
the game, and we don't even get a Dankinger call,
So that, among many other things, that would be the
biggest revelation that really blew me away.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah. Well, and I remember as a kid, you know,
in eighty five, the hype that they made it because
it was the ICE seventy Interstate seventy corridor and it
was basically two Missouri teams making the playoffs in terms
of that, Am I remembering that correctly? The way that
the media kind of portrayed that.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Series, Oh yeah, very much so. Yeah, Interstate seventy, which
is connected Kansas City and Saint Louis. It's nineteen fifty six.
It was most commonly and is still famously known as
the I seventy series. Yeah, there was a lot made
about that. The you know, local papers and you know
in Missouri just ate up every you know, people in
(09:07):
Missouri just ate up the provincialism. Some people, you know
on the coast were apathetic, but others got into it,
like Tony Kornheiser, who I think it was writing for
the Washington Post at the time, Like he traveled all
the way through I seventy and he chronicled, you know,
all the all the the life on the you know,
the rural sides of the highway. So yeah, the beautia
(09:29):
really focused on that specific image, and I really love that.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, And I also feel like, and maybe there's no
truth to this, and this is just me with with
a little of a bias, But I think a lot
of times that the media they want the West Coast
or the East coast to be in series, whether it's Baseball, NBA,
you name it, and so sometimes I feel like they
have to make a story to sell that hype in
(09:56):
Interstate seventy series, was that hype not I don't want
to overshadow the two teams, it's just that it's all
about selling tickets and getting eyes on the tube.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Definitely, well, I mean, they definitely had to focus on
that if they even wanted to, because there was definitely
throughout the season there was a lot of expectation that
there would be a Mets Yankee Subway series. You know,
that would have been very flashy and Ricky Henderson and
Don Mattingly versus Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry. Are you
gonna have even had Dodgers versus Angels? So some I
(10:28):
think a lot of media got into the ice eventything,
but there were others that were definitely turned off by
the just all Missouri thing.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, and one thing we knew was it going to
happen was the Cubs of White Sox so not gonna
happen at here. You know, you mentioned a little bit
about the instant replay and the ABC announcers doing the
instant replay with the blown call there early in the
game there at Game six. Obviously we have that now
(10:56):
in baseball in terms that personally, I would just say
that I'm not a big fan of that. I like
the old school where an umpire is making the call.
That's part of the game as the blowing calls, and
to me, that kind of gives it a little bit
more character and it's more of a game. I think
(11:16):
today they're trying to get a perfect game, and I
don't think sports is meant to be perfect, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
That's a really good way of putting it, you know.
The that's what a lot of people say against instor replay,
and like especially talking about the Dankner call, It's like
that's part of what makes baseball great, you know. It's
Baseball has that interesting contradiction where it's such a pure
and tactile sport and it can like it kind of
(11:45):
caters to that that desire to like you want to
see a perfect game, a perfectly structured thing, but it
also has those weird things that complicate it. I personally,
you know, I got into baseball before there was instor replay,
and then I saw it adapted, you know, years later,
I'm okay with instant replay. Personally, I guess I ultimately
(12:08):
lean towards like the integrity of a well called game,
but I appreciate, I do, I respect that viewpoint of like, yeah,
just accepting warts and all. And and I think of
another point in your defense. It's like me and a
lot of people, including myself, will be like, oh, you know,
instagram play makes sense, what about the Dankinger call? But
(12:28):
then also at the same time, there was more to
that game, and there would be more to just about
any game with than just one bad call. So I
see what your I see your point.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Of view, you know, because you know, when you're behind
the plate or you're in the field, you've got to
split second to make a call, you know. And today
you have the luxury with some of these announcers, and
they have the little box in there, and they got
where the ball is and the catcher's moving the glove
and stuff. I just think it's easier to be an
(13:02):
armchair official when you've got all this technology, But when
you're geared up and sitting behind the plate, these guys
get it right more than they get it wrong, I
guess would be my argument.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Anyways, we're not talking about that, but maybe refreshed some
of the listeners memories from eighty five about that controversial call.
Maybe just kind of put it in recap for some
people that don't remember it, Oh for sure.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Well, so the context is this. It's Game six of
the World Series. The Cardinals are leading three games to two.
Game six is a super tight game, but they take
a one nothing lead in the eighth on a pinch
hit from Brian Harper and they're three outs away. Bottom
of the ninth Cardinals will win their tenth championship, you know.
And the inning starts off. George Orida, aging backup for
(13:54):
the Royals, taps a slow grounder to the right side.
It's clearly fielded in time. It's an awkward to be fair,
it's a really awkward looking play in every way, but
there's still no doubt Orda is out. But don Dan King,
your first base umpire was too close in observing it
and he couldn't hear the sequence of the ballpop and
(14:15):
the foot landing because the crowd was so loud, so
he called it as he saw it safe and it
was just everyone almost everyone in the stadium knew. The
televised replace made it clear order was out. But all
the same, that was just one development. It was the
beginning of an inning that had a lot of twists
and turns that led to walk off single by Dane
(14:37):
Orge for the Royals. They forced Game seven and they
win Game seven easily. That's the super bite sized version.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
There's more than that, oh absolutely, And I think you'd
make a great point. And for those that no baseball
will appreciate this and those that are are not as
familiar with baseball, I think you made it two great
points there. One is, as an official, you can be
too close to the call because you get blinded because
(15:04):
you're too close, and sometimes that's being out of position,
or you can be in the right position and the
play is just weird. Sometimes that just happens, right, you
know that nothing you can do about it. But the
thing that is I think is really to your point
is when you're officiating, you're watching the foot hit the bag.
(15:25):
You're not watching the ball hit the glove because you're
looking for that pop or you're listening for that pop
sound and your eyes are on the base, but you're listening,
and when you have a growth serious crowd, that can
make it very tough to listen.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Right, absolutely, well, you're what you said is completely accurate.
This and what you just said is one of the
many reasons I don't begrudge the Ankinger, and I don't
think that he should should have ever been and certainly
forty years later, should not be scapegoaded. For all that,
I think it's a it's the complexity, even if it
(16:04):
was obvious or it was out as and George Brett
said this in his interview for my book, like it
was not a fluid play and it's just you know,
Dan Kinger may have been too closed, but well, like
you said, it just wasn't a smooth play to judge overall,
and the crowd noise is just overwhelming. Joe beckwith rest
(16:25):
of Soul Royals relief Pitcher told me the crowd from
that game was so loud, especially after they won it,
that they couldn't carry a conversation on the field, Like
it was a pretty pretty big noise. So yeah, you
can't blain banking here really.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah, And if you can't even have a conversation,
what makes you think you're going to hear that popping
sound in the glove? There's no way. And again, instant
replay wasn't there at the time, and you're just going
by good old fashioned he's calling it as he sees
it type thing. What was the reaction of the Cardinals Obviously.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
We.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Definitely I think that they were. They were definitely upset.
The guys immediately on the play were all just reacting
with total indignation, like what you know, what are you
talking about? But it was still one play. But what
I think what the Cardinals did is that they didn't
really rebound from it. I really believe that if they
just got the first out on the next batter, Steve Balboni,
(17:31):
and they had a great chance. Steve Balboni had a
towering pop foul, Jack Clark and Darryl Porter settle under
it easily ready to catch it, but they miscommunicated and
Clark wasn't able to get it. That I think is
where it really snowballed. I firmly believe if Clark re
porter catches that out, they put the Dankinger call out
of their minds and they just get it done. But
(17:54):
I think the reaction was indignation, and then I think
they let it snowball were just a lot of twists
and turns that ding. And I say this again, I'll
never be a professional ballplayer athlete. I'll never know what
it's like to be at a level like that. But
I do think the Cardinals, I would say, in short,
they let the indignation turn into just from you know,
(18:17):
getting ahead, getting ahead of themselves, an indignation kind of
set the stage for their demise.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, how many times have you seen somebody lead off
that they get on and then you know, the next
play it turns into a double play and now instead
of you know they're down, they're down to one out
in that process, But kind of going back to what
you said earlier, I could see where the miscommunication could
occur because if the Empire can't hear the snap of
(18:47):
the ball at first, what makes you think somebody's going
to be able to call here? Somebody calling you off?
In terms of.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
That, absolutely, and that that was probably a part of
it too. And I think also Jack Clark was in
his first season as a first baseman, so I think
that was kind of a deficiency on his part, like
he just didn't read it right, but it was still
very playable. And you know again, I think that's that
in my view, that was the real turning point where
(19:16):
the inning started to really go off the rails for
Saint Louis.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Well, and you would have thought maybe a veteran would
have stepped up a little bit, you know, and and
kind of got everybody together. And I'm thinking somebody like
Ozzie Smith. They're playing shortstop, you know that. And again
I'm not throwing anybody under the bus or anything like that.
It's just that you would look for one of your
leaders to step up and go, all right, come on, guys,
(19:41):
we're professionals. Let's let's let's get this done.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Definitely, Yeah, I think that that that. I think that's
a good observation. Yeah, something like that could have helped. Yeah,
just people say a lot of the same thing about
like Dusty Baker during the Steve Bartman game in two
thousand and three, if he just goes out there and
sold's the players just kind of calms things down. I
think the Cardinals could have benefited from that too. Yeah,
(20:05):
just like a reassuring moment, but I don't think they
really have that.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But you know the flip side of that, that are
all professionals, and it's like, you know, at what point
I expect you to do your job? I expect you
to do first base and catch a routine, fly things happen.
I get it, But there's also a level of expectation as.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Well, Right, I agree, definitely.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
All right, Mosh, I know we're getting close here on time.
But any last thoughts or takeaways that you think that
the audience would the listeners would find interesting with your book.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Well, there's a whole lot, I would say. In addition
to all the interesting stories about the eighty five season
in playoffs, I'd also like to emphasize what people will
love about this book is how I traced where the
legacy at the eighty five series went afterward in the
years leading up to twenty fifteen, which was the next
time the Royals won, And in those last two chapters,
(21:09):
I show how even though the eighty five series got
largely forgotten, it seemed to echo throughout the years in
some pretty unique ways, and when the Royals won that
next title, it brought everything full circle in a really
poetic way, and I think people will really appreciate that.
You know that the central theme of the book is rhads.
I seized on the image of Interstate seventy and I
(21:30):
turned the book into like a reflection on roads, how
the roads to eighty five, where they went during it,
and then where they went after. And I think to
all readers, to everyone listening to this, I think you'll
really appreciate that depth. And I talked to a lot
of amazing people who shared really authentic stories, and I'm
certain you all.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Love it absolutely. If you're a baseball fan, go out
and pick up a copy of Interstate eighty five, The Royals,
the Cardinals, and the Show Me World series. You're not
going to be disappointed. It's by the University of Missouri
Press as a publisher on this book. Please go ahead
and get a copy and support Marshall and the University
(22:09):
of Missouri Press. Marshall, thank you so much for coming
on and spending some time with us today.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Hey, thank you very much for having me. I had
a great time talking.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It's our pleasure. Thank you for listening to this episode
of In Between the Pages. We'll be back next week
with another edition.
In Between the Pages with Doug His. In Between the
Pages with Doug His.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello everybody, and again welcome back to in Between the Pages.
And today we have a very special guest with us,
Marshall Garvey, and he is here to talk about Interstate
eighty five, the Royals, the Cardinals and the show Me
World Series. Here we are in the middle of summer spring,
going into summer, and it's baseball season and we're going
(00:57):
to take you back in time to the year nineteen
eighty five. But first of all, Marshall, welcome to in
Between the Pages.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Thank you very much for having me. I'm glad to
be here.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Ah well, thank you for taking some time out of
your busy schedule to talk to us about this, your book,
Interstate eighty five. And you know, one of the first
questions I always loved to allow authors when we have
guests on is to kind of give a quick overview
of what the book's about.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So the book is about the nineteen eighty five World
Series between the Kansas City Royals and Saint Louis Cardinals,
which of course is most famously known for umpire Dondakinger's
blown call in Game six. That's especially a big grievance
that's held a lot by generations of Saint Louis Cardinals fans.
But my point with the book was to show that
there was far more to that series than just the call.
(01:48):
Lots of overlook stories from lots of great players, including
players you might have forgotten about who had just amazing tales,
and also what it meant to the state of Missouri
and just what a unique scene it was in every way,
and I think the book shows that, and with flying
color how special it was. In addition to detailing the call,
I didn't gloss that overall.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Didn't leave that out, or you probably would have been
booed off off the stage anyways, right for eliminating that
in the book. Well, you know, Marshall, maybe talk a
little bit about so at the beginning of the season.
You know, if you're a baseball fan like I am,
and I'm sure you are as well, we all have
our thoughts at the beginning of the season, right when
(02:33):
they go to pre season and they go to camp
and everybody still has that hope that they're still going
to make the World Series come October. But maybe talk
a little bit about that early spring of eighty five
where's was there that belief that the Royals and the
(02:54):
Cardinals were going to make it in the World Series.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
That's a great question. It really wasn't a whole lot
of hype for either team, especially on the Cardinals side.
Believe it or not, the Cardinals were actually picked by
a few publications to finish dead last in the National
League East. The Royals were coming off of having made
the playoffs in eighty four, so there's definitely anticipation that
they would do well. I think that they would be
(03:19):
a contender, but I don't think a lot of people
were thinking Royals will win the World Series this year,
especially because the defending champions were the Detroit Tigers, who
were just an absolute monster in eighty four. So I
don't think there's a whole lot of hype for either
of both teams going into the season. But that's part
of what makes them meeting up ultimately more interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
In the end. Yeah, exactly. You know, like I said,
you know, whoever your team is, there's always that high
expectation going into spring ball that oh my gosh, this
could be the year to get things turned around. But
there's a lot of things that happen, you know, there's injuries,
there's trades that happened within players just go into slumps
(04:01):
as well, even the best in terms of that. So,
like you said, it's really hard to really look into
that crystal ball and maybe a little bit more fun than.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Anything absolutely, And you're right, that's the fun of it,
you know, it's in baseball. I think it can be
the most unpredictable sport. You know, you think you you
think you can prognosticate, you know what team is going
to be the next dynasty, right, you know, and use
and I'm cool with analytics and advanced abra metrics to
(04:32):
measure everything in advance. But there's always there can always
be that precarious, you know, unpredictable factor to it. And
that's that's fun.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And that's the human factor, like we said, people going
into slums or getting hurt, et cetera, et cetera. You
kind of alluded to this at the very beginning that
there was some stories behind the scenes that was going
on throughout the season. Maybe kind of talk a little
bit about what each franchise I was was was going
(05:03):
during that season that run.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Uh could you say that again? I cut a little
bit there, what they were like what they were going
through during the season.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yes, absolutely a little bit. What what the clubhouse was
going through through the season. I mean, uh, was there
a particular time when both teams said, hey, we may
have a shot of going into the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Well, that's a good question. It kind of differs for
both teams. With the Cardinals, I think you could basically
point to, uh, spring training before the season even began.
A Cardinals reliever and current announcer for them, Ricky Horton,
told me manager Whitey Herzog called together a meeting during
spring training and he just told everyone, Look, here's how
we're going to win this year. You know, we're going
(05:47):
to do it with speed, We're gonna do it with pitching.
We're going to do it with you know, defense and
contact hitting. And I think right then and there, even
though it would take a few months for the Cardinals
to really gel, he laid out that vision. And so
I think once that really came together, you know, they
called up Vince Coleman in April, and he was the
big rookie sensation, stole all the bases, really got the
(06:08):
offense going. John Tudor got his change up working and
pitch better. I think that was basically it for the Royals.
Their moment was more in the second half. They were
actually trailing the Angels by a wide margin seven and
a half games at the All Star break, and you
gotta be thinking, oh, the season's cooked. But Mark Gubizad
told me that the veterans, the veteran leaders like George Brett,
(06:32):
Frank White, Helmuc Cray just kept everyone stable, like, hey,
we're fine, we always do better in the second half.
In fact, actually there's even one more specific moment. This
is in the book and Royals Captured. Jim Sunberg told
me the moment the big you know, the big speech.
Sometimes you expect a team slumping to have an emotional speech,
(06:52):
like Edgar Entia for the twenty ten Giants or Chris
Carpenter for the twenty eleven Cardinals. Jim Sunberg told me
that he and George Orda were just doing a postgame shave,
and George Orda and its thick Mexican accent, was just like, well,
tell you here, Jim, one thing, we are going to
win this thing. And that was it. Like that that
alone just previewed that the Royals would come back and
(07:15):
win the division and they did.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah. So during the writing and the research of this book,
what surprised you, if anything?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Oh, a lot of things. Well, I mean there are
so many great stories and things that I learned about
the regular season in playoffs, and then the World Series itself,
and then the history after. I would say the biggest surprise,
the biggest revelation, And this is something I really emphasized
to illustrate that Thankinger's call wasn't the only thing that mattered.
(07:46):
There was actually a blown call earlier in that same game,
Game six of the World Series, that cost the Royals
to run. And when I first heard about it, I thought, oh,
is this what Royals fans tell themselves? It's like, this
is the excuse. Then I watched the game and no,
it's true. The ABC announcers even emphasized it and replayed
it like, Yeah, there was a loan call in the
(08:07):
fourth that would have allowed the Royals to go up
one nothing and that could have changed the course of
the game, and we don't even get a Dankinger call,
So that, among many other things, that would be the
biggest revelation that really blew me away.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah. Well, and I remember as a kid, you know,
in eighty five, the hype that they made it because
it was the ICE seventy Interstate seventy corridor and it
was basically two Missouri teams making the playoffs in terms
of that, Am I remembering that correctly? The way that
the media kind of portrayed that.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Series, Oh yeah, very much so. Yeah, Interstate seventy, which
is connected Kansas City and Saint Louis. It's nineteen fifty six.
It was most commonly and is still famously known as
the I seventy series. Yeah, there was a lot made
about that. The you know, local papers and you know
in Missouri just ate up every you know, people in
(09:07):
Missouri just ate up the provincialism. Some people, you know
on the coast were apathetic, but others got into it,
like Tony Kornheiser, who I think it was writing for
the Washington Post at the time, Like he traveled all
the way through I seventy and he chronicled, you know,
all the all the the life on the you know,
the rural sides of the highway. So yeah, the beautia
(09:29):
really focused on that specific image, and I really love that.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, And I also feel like, and maybe there's no
truth to this, and this is just me with with
a little of a bias, But I think a lot
of times that the media they want the West Coast
or the East coast to be in series, whether it's Baseball, NBA,
you name it, and so sometimes I feel like they
have to make a story to sell that hype in
(09:56):
Interstate seventy series, was that hype not I don't want
to overshadow the two teams, it's just that it's all
about selling tickets and getting eyes on the tube.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Definitely, well, I mean, they definitely had to focus on
that if they even wanted to, because there was definitely
throughout the season there was a lot of expectation that
there would be a Mets Yankee Subway series. You know,
that would have been very flashy and Ricky Henderson and
Don Mattingly versus Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry. Are you
gonna have even had Dodgers versus Angels? So some I
(10:28):
think a lot of media got into the ice eventything,
but there were others that were definitely turned off by
the just all Missouri thing.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, and one thing we knew was it going to
happen was the Cubs of White Sox so not gonna
happen at here. You know, you mentioned a little bit
about the instant replay and the ABC announcers doing the
instant replay with the blown call there early in the
game there at Game six. Obviously we have that now
(10:56):
in baseball in terms that personally, I would just say
that I'm not a big fan of that. I like
the old school where an umpire is making the call.
That's part of the game as the blowing calls, and
to me, that kind of gives it a little bit
more character and it's more of a game. I think
(11:16):
today they're trying to get a perfect game, and I
don't think sports is meant to be perfect, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
That's a really good way of putting it, you know.
The that's what a lot of people say against instor replay,
and like especially talking about the Dankner call, It's like
that's part of what makes baseball great, you know. It's
Baseball has that interesting contradiction where it's such a pure
and tactile sport and it can like it kind of
(11:45):
caters to that that desire to like you want to
see a perfect game, a perfectly structured thing, but it
also has those weird things that complicate it. I personally,
you know, I got into baseball before there was instor replay,
and then I saw it adapted, you know, years later,
I'm okay with instant replay. Personally, I guess I ultimately
(12:08):
lean towards like the integrity of a well called game,
but I appreciate, I do, I respect that viewpoint of like, yeah,
just accepting warts and all. And and I think of
another point in your defense. It's like me and a
lot of people, including myself, will be like, oh, you know,
instagram play makes sense, what about the Dankinger call? But
(12:28):
then also at the same time, there was more to
that game, and there would be more to just about
any game with than just one bad call. So I
see what your I see your point.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Of view, you know, because you know, when you're behind
the plate or you're in the field, you've got to
split second to make a call, you know. And today
you have the luxury with some of these announcers, and
they have the little box in there, and they got
where the ball is and the catcher's moving the glove
and stuff. I just think it's easier to be an
(13:02):
armchair official when you've got all this technology, But when
you're geared up and sitting behind the plate, these guys
get it right more than they get it wrong, I
guess would be my argument.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Anyways, we're not talking about that, but maybe refreshed some
of the listeners memories from eighty five about that controversial call.
Maybe just kind of put it in recap for some
people that don't remember it, Oh for sure.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Well, so the context is this. It's Game six of
the World Series. The Cardinals are leading three games to two.
Game six is a super tight game, but they take
a one nothing lead in the eighth on a pinch
hit from Brian Harper and they're three outs away. Bottom
of the ninth Cardinals will win their tenth championship, you know.
And the inning starts off. George Orida, aging backup for
(13:54):
the Royals, taps a slow grounder to the right side.
It's clearly fielded in time. It's an awkward to be fair,
it's a really awkward looking play in every way, but
there's still no doubt Orda is out. But don Dan King,
your first base umpire was too close in observing it
and he couldn't hear the sequence of the ballpop and
(14:15):
the foot landing because the crowd was so loud, so
he called it as he saw it safe and it
was just everyone almost everyone in the stadium knew. The
televised replace made it clear order was out. But all
the same, that was just one development. It was the
beginning of an inning that had a lot of twists
and turns that led to walk off single by Dane
(14:37):
Orge for the Royals. They forced Game seven and they
win Game seven easily. That's the super bite sized version.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
There's more than that, oh absolutely, And I think you'd
make a great point. And for those that no baseball
will appreciate this and those that are are not as
familiar with baseball, I think you made it two great
points there. One is, as an official, you can be
too close to the call because you get blinded because
(15:04):
you're too close, and sometimes that's being out of position,
or you can be in the right position and the
play is just weird. Sometimes that just happens, right, you
know that nothing you can do about it. But the
thing that is I think is really to your point
is when you're officiating, you're watching the foot hit the bag.
(15:25):
You're not watching the ball hit the glove because you're
looking for that pop or you're listening for that pop
sound and your eyes are on the base, but you're listening,
and when you have a growth serious crowd, that can
make it very tough to listen.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Right, absolutely, well, you're what you said is completely accurate.
This and what you just said is one of the
many reasons I don't begrudge the Ankinger, and I don't
think that he should should have ever been and certainly
forty years later, should not be scapegoaded. For all that,
I think it's a it's the complexity, even if it
(16:04):
was obvious or it was out as and George Brett
said this in his interview for my book, like it
was not a fluid play and it's just you know,
Dan Kinger may have been too closed, but well, like
you said, it just wasn't a smooth play to judge overall,
and the crowd noise is just overwhelming. Joe beckwith rest
(16:25):
of Soul Royals relief Pitcher told me the crowd from
that game was so loud, especially after they won it,
that they couldn't carry a conversation on the field, Like
it was a pretty pretty big noise. So yeah, you
can't blain banking here really.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah, And if you can't even have a conversation,
what makes you think you're going to hear that popping
sound in the glove? There's no way. And again, instant
replay wasn't there at the time, and you're just going
by good old fashioned he's calling it as he sees
it type thing. What was the reaction of the Cardinals Obviously.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
We.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Definitely I think that they were. They were definitely upset.
The guys immediately on the play were all just reacting
with total indignation, like what you know, what are you
talking about? But it was still one play. But what
I think what the Cardinals did is that they didn't
really rebound from it. I really believe that if they
just got the first out on the next batter, Steve Balboni,
(17:31):
and they had a great chance. Steve Balboni had a
towering pop foul, Jack Clark and Darryl Porter settle under
it easily ready to catch it, but they miscommunicated and
Clark wasn't able to get it. That I think is
where it really snowballed. I firmly believe if Clark re
porter catches that out, they put the Dankinger call out
of their minds and they just get it done. But
(17:54):
I think the reaction was indignation, and then I think
they let it snowball were just a lot of twists
and turns that ding. And I say this again, I'll
never be a professional ballplayer athlete. I'll never know what
it's like to be at a level like that. But
I do think the Cardinals, I would say, in short,
they let the indignation turn into just from you know,
(18:17):
getting ahead, getting ahead of themselves, an indignation kind of
set the stage for their demise.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, how many times have you seen somebody lead off
that they get on and then you know, the next
play it turns into a double play and now instead
of you know they're down, they're down to one out
in that process, But kind of going back to what
you said earlier, I could see where the miscommunication could
occur because if the Empire can't hear the snap of
(18:47):
the ball at first, what makes you think somebody's going
to be able to call here? Somebody calling you off?
In terms of.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
That, absolutely, and that that was probably a part of
it too. And I think also Jack Clark was in
his first season as a first baseman, so I think
that was kind of a deficiency on his part, like
he just didn't read it right, but it was still
very playable. And you know again, I think that's that
in my view, that was the real turning point where
(19:16):
the inning started to really go off the rails for
Saint Louis.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Well, and you would have thought maybe a veteran would
have stepped up a little bit, you know, and and
kind of got everybody together. And I'm thinking somebody like
Ozzie Smith. They're playing shortstop, you know that. And again
I'm not throwing anybody under the bus or anything like that.
It's just that you would look for one of your
leaders to step up and go, all right, come on, guys,
(19:41):
we're professionals. Let's let's let's get this done.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Definitely, Yeah, I think that that that. I think that's
a good observation. Yeah, something like that could have helped. Yeah,
just people say a lot of the same thing about
like Dusty Baker during the Steve Bartman game in two
thousand and three, if he just goes out there and
sold's the players just kind of calms things down. I
think the Cardinals could have benefited from that too. Yeah,
(20:05):
just like a reassuring moment, but I don't think they
really have that.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But you know the flip side of that, that are
all professionals, and it's like, you know, at what point
I expect you to do your job? I expect you
to do first base and catch a routine, fly things happen.
I get it, But there's also a level of expectation as.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Well, Right, I agree, definitely.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
All right, Mosh, I know we're getting close here on time.
But any last thoughts or takeaways that you think that
the audience would the listeners would find interesting with your book.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Well, there's a whole lot, I would say. In addition
to all the interesting stories about the eighty five season
in playoffs, I'd also like to emphasize what people will
love about this book is how I traced where the
legacy at the eighty five series went afterward in the
years leading up to twenty fifteen, which was the next
time the Royals won, And in those last two chapters,
(21:09):
I show how even though the eighty five series got
largely forgotten, it seemed to echo throughout the years in
some pretty unique ways, and when the Royals won that
next title, it brought everything full circle in a really
poetic way, and I think people will really appreciate that.
You know that the central theme of the book is rhads.
I seized on the image of Interstate seventy and I
(21:30):
turned the book into like a reflection on roads, how
the roads to eighty five, where they went during it,
and then where they went after. And I think to
all readers, to everyone listening to this, I think you'll
really appreciate that depth. And I talked to a lot
of amazing people who shared really authentic stories, and I'm
certain you all.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Love it absolutely. If you're a baseball fan, go out
and pick up a copy of Interstate eighty five, The Royals,
the Cardinals, and the Show Me World series. You're not
going to be disappointed. It's by the University of Missouri
Press as a publisher on this book. Please go ahead
and get a copy and support Marshall and the University
(22:09):
of Missouri Press. Marshall, thank you so much for coming
on and spending some time with us today.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Hey, thank you very much for having me. I had
a great time talking.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It's our pleasure. Thank you for listening to this episode
of In Between the Pages. We'll be back next week
with another edition.
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