May 15, 2025 • 54 mins
WARNING: Contains some themes that may be triggering to some people. JLJ And Sabrina have a open and honest talk about her Memoir. Its a tale that sounds like a movie but it was REAL! www.sabrinacapper.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
When you are not fed love on a silver spoon,
you learn to lick it off the knives. That is
Lauren Eden who said that on this episode. I want
to tell you right now warning there will be some
difficult talk because this is YouTube. So I'm gonna have
(00:25):
to change some words or wording or wordage to say
certain things. God, I don't want you're flagged. I this
is a very important subject that needs to come out.
So I'm just gonna give you tell you now, warning, warning, warning, essay.
Cult stuff, I mean like it does father, grandfather, granddaughter, mother, God,
that's all kinds of stuff, situations we're gonna talk about
(00:48):
in some in some forms. I just want to warn
you now. Okay, guy, welcome. I between pages with James Jr.
I'm James, and let me read. So I want to
take you along, drinker is this book takes you along
on a journey. So I want to tell you my journey.
My girl who I work with, her name is Samantha,
and we get all kinds of artists. Sends me this bio.
(01:12):
It's short, folks, holding on. In twenty twenty four, Sabrina
confronted her ritualistic serial killer cult leader grandfather on his
deathbed and informed him she had written a tell all book.
She recorded the interaction and posted on social media, instantly
hitting over two million views. In December, she published her
book This, a sensational bestseller, True Kind tell alle licking
(01:37):
the knife. Well, I'll try to get in a second. And
when I saw that sentence, those two sentences, I said, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
let's get her on here. And I just want to
say congratulations to her because not just for the book,
because she made it in life. Sabrina Caepern, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh that's such a warm molom thing.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You seriously, no, you those of us who tell our
stories after I've lived that, living themcause I've done speaking engagement.
I'm gonna write a book on my story soon. But
I mean tell you it's it's uh, it's brave, you know,
for us to say it and to believe that people
want you to hear it because not about you. I'm
(02:23):
gonna ask your first question about you. I always felt like, well,
no one cares, no one's gonna care. They go they
don't hear my story. I believe my attackers. You said,
no one will believe me.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It was the same for you, it's it's exactly what
you said. I find the idea that I could say
it out loud and live was I could not. I
couldn't imagine a world where that that was possible. And
(02:57):
like you, when you take that leap and say whatever
the thing is that you've never said, Yes, goodness, it's
not the bearer you thought it was. I mean, it's awful,
but it's temporary.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yes, one of the things that I realize. So folks,
so you guys know this already who for a long
time follows me. I grew up in abuse of household,
dusive father. I was sexually assaulted and left for dead
and all that kind of stuff. So I've done that
and survived it, always survived it. When you say, when
(03:38):
you talk about out loud, I know it's uncomfortable for
people and and for you to write a book on this.
What got you through? What got you through saying I
got gonna push through this, I'm gonna write this book,
I'm going to release it. What kept you going?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Oh, such a good question, And I haven't been asked
that one, And I would say the practical answer is
a lot of therapy, a lot of different kinds of
the and the emotional or I don't even know if
i'd even say spiritual answer is not not letting it continue.
(04:26):
Like I finally decided that I was willing to put
my life at risk to stop the cycle. So you know,
the first words out of my mouth, which you could
see on my tiktoks, are I want you to know
(04:48):
I wrote a book, and that was very intentional. That
was the only sentence I wanted to say was that
no matter what happens to me in this room today,
a everyone's gonna know and there's nothing you can do
to stop it. Because I sent it to multiple publishers,
(05:08):
I sold it, I put it on multiple servers. I
I wanted to make sure I had instructions in place
that if I never walked out of that room again,
it was still gonna go.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
So your intention, you're very intentional. That is was going out.
So Michael going even at the self published it's going out.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, Like I went the traditional publisher route at first,
and the initial feedback was so kind and thoughtful, it
was great. It was just you have to water this down,
and I'm like, it's my life, Like I can't, I can't,
(05:57):
I can't, And what it was was that first person
perspective of a young child experiencing these but what for me,
it was my experience, like it is my childhood, And yes,
I realize it's horrific for other people, it's all I knew.
(06:20):
And it was I spent a long time letting other
people be comfortable around me, not talking about it. Kind
of what you were saying. You know, people people shy
away from difficult conversations, and I was not gonna let
this conversation be silenced again anymore ever, Like I just
(06:46):
couldn't take it another day.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It was a guttural thing for you. It was like
totally like this has to come out. I'm tired quiet
about it. I think it's I know some folks and
I want, I do want to say this. For some people,
I know it's this comes from a place of being,
of not knowing how to receive stuff like this and
how yeah, it's not as it's hard to comfort people
(07:08):
when it's uncomfortable. You don't know, you don't know, like
how do I so I know something? Because so for someonople,
I know it comes from a good place. It's just
kind of like what do I say to you? Like
what I'm like, and you and I we were like
just hug me. You're just saying good job. We're just
like we don't we're not looking for anything. That's specially
can you say.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
You can never go wrong with kindness, right and if
even if it lands wrong because you say the wrong thing. No,
I've never had someone be kind to me and it
feel bad, Like I get a love Jesus love. I
get a lot of love from people who are in religions,
(07:45):
and you know, I know it comes from a place
of kindness and that's what matters people.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I just want to make it make sure I don't
make sure I say I got people we get sometimes
it really is. It's kind of you don't You just
don't know either you've never experienced it, you know, to
do You're kind of like, well, I'm telling you where
people will go this. We're just simple. We're like simple. Fuck,
We're like, just be nice, just don't just a dick. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, And exactly what you said earlier, like just saying
I believe you is so incredible, Like that was the
most pivotal moment I think for me was the you
know when Nanny was like I believe you, Like if
(08:32):
you do nothing else. If anyone ever, especially a child,
talks to you and says uncomfortable things, just say I believe.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
You know you don't.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
You don't have to do much.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Just that that good. She when you was like like
the nanny never cries and she was crying. Well, your
husband kind of got on my nerves during years, Like
I got to say, it's a book. You put it
(09:05):
in the book. He got my nerves.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
You what I will take back all day every day
for a man who does the work for a man
like it was a huge surprise, and I don't think
anyone would have blamed him for leaving me. I mean,
I've been living a double life our whole marriage. But
(09:28):
to stay and do the work, to work through something
like this, our relationship has never been stronger. Like it's,
oh my god, like because there's a whole different level
of honesty, you know what I mean, And when with
honesty comes vulnerability, and with vulnerability comes intimacy and love
(09:55):
and all the wonderful things that I was afraid to
feel because you can't feel those when you're protecting someone
the casing.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yes, yes, oh yes, that wow, it's crazy. Okay, we
forgive you forgive you, dave give.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You fully take accountability for the lives I have told,
and I've told a lot. That I think is why
it's so important to understand where they all came from,
because it was always out of love and kindness. I
didn't ever act violently or maliciously in the untruths that
(10:37):
I told.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I got it. I get that. This book is almost unbelievable, folks,
I mean, like, read it, you're like that, and it
was folks, have dogged your pages in here.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Oh, I love that. I annatate all.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
My books the time, and it's this part just really
gets me so really quick, folks, I'm reading from the book.
I'm ready. I am a villain. I know. It's because
the mother reminds me all the time that I don't forget.
I'm a big girl now, almost five years old. I
(11:19):
should remember. I don't forget, but sometimes she thinks I do,
so she has to remind me with hits and kicks.
I haven't forgotten since last year when I was too
excited about hearing in Sunday school that Jesus loved me.
He loves me, and he always and he is always right,
so I can love me I was too little to
(11:42):
know that the mother's love hurts and is real and
Jesus is just make believe those two paragraphs like really
wins my soul. It was just kind of like, Wow,
this little girl goes from pain to joy to pay.
(12:04):
It's two paragraphs. Is just beginning of the book. That's
not It's it's like it's it's page eleven. I mean,
I mean like I was like, I'm like, oh my goodness,
it goes on. It goes on, trust me, it goes
on from the thing. But and it's written from the
little girl, your little girl perspective. So it's just to
(12:25):
hear that you want I want to hunt the girl.
It's gonna hung her.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
She'll take it right.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
It's like like but it's like, seriously, you're going to
a place of worship that tells you that Jesus loves you,
but your but your mother's being it out of you,
so to speak. That's kind of when I got out
of that. Is that my kind of closer in there?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, And I'll even give you a little inside info
that particular memory as as you read throughout the book,
like I had kind of compartmentalized them to a point
where when they came out, it was a surprise to
really talk about all of these things for the first time.
(13:05):
And that three year old memory came up when I
was home alone with my son and I had a
panic attack in front of him of that memory, and
it's very clear. I remember being very excited, you know,
if Jesus loved me, and that meant I could love me.
(13:26):
And I was a good girl, and we know from
psychological studies that that's a time in your life where
you really decide if you're a good person or a
bad person. And when I got home and I told
my mother, the memory of the beating she gave me
was so violent. It scared the crap out of my
(13:49):
son because I couldn't stop feeling the hit and the kicks,
and all I can hear her saying is, no one
loves you. You're the worst. I'm the only person who
will ever love you. And this is how you know
if Jesus loved you, he would save you, but if
(14:10):
he doesn't. And it was beat into me very young,
and it is really difficult to get it out and
just say that your own mother did that to me,
(14:30):
you know, it's really difficult. However, that's learned behavior, you know, Like,
I'm not the first person to go through this. I'm
just the first person I've ever read the first person
perspective of it.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, my thing wor was my father's rejecting me on
some level. You're saying, I don't like who you are,
so I'm going to beat it out of you or
let you or talk crap about you or whatever. Where
the things are growing all the way into my adulthood
and we don't talk at all. Now he's somewhere in
(15:11):
la and I'm over here somewhere. But it was one
of those things where I was like, as a kid,
I felt the rejection and so then so then when
he did give me attention, which was the wrong attention
of course, right was lapping it up. Isn't that crazy?
I was like, Oh no, because it.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Feels so gentle. It is so much better until the
very last second until it's not, and then it's worse.
But you don't know which one you're gonna get. Hence
that fight or flight systematic stuff, you know, like if
(15:52):
you never know what you're gonna get when your parent
touches you right, like, it's it's intense environment.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
It is as your parents. So and this book you
call her the mother. Yes, I love it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Oh good. I needed to give myself a little distance
in talking about these people, because especially with my with
my mother, she has many personalities, and for me, I
(16:34):
mentioned them some you know, the queen and the crone
and the you know. It seemed easier than trying to
connect that to marrying names.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
She says. At one point, I think you need some
time to think about what really matters in this life.
She says a little loudly. Not everyone is lust so
lucky at people looking out for the way you do.
You need to think about what family really means to you.
When I read this on folks, this page one ninety four,
(17:11):
the rest of the scenarios is fed up and I'm
I'm seeing when I've been told something similar tour some situation.
So I when I read it, I found myself as
I'm Rea I Fello a little sassy, and I'm like,
I'm seeing how smart ass that is and how ironically
(17:32):
twisted that is. Because my father said things like that
to me too, in the middle of a meeting or
the middle of a humiliation. And so I'm telling you, folks,
throughout this means the middle of book that, folks, that
was the one. I'm just like, I hear that, I
hear that, like like this is this is so f up,
it's soft, like it's just so effed up. The manipulation
(17:55):
that someone will using regular words that sound normal, and
that was their gift.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
They they knew how to not leave a mark on
the outside of my body, and they knew how to
use regular words. And it's part of the reason I
think I really delve into words and what they need
in the structure. And you know, I enjoyed the technical
part of writing for that reason, because words are so
(18:25):
powerful and they do not have to be fancy or
wild like they can be as simplistic as a three
year old child. And it's still, like you said, joyful
and sorrowful and engaging.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Do you think for you, we told you this all
the time I've had I had therapy two so I died.
This is great also to me, it is the words
that lasted longer than the actual acts done to me.
And someone told me they can understand that. I said, well,
thank god, you'll understand because I don't want you. I
(18:58):
don't want you. Yeah, you don't be a part of
the cloud that's similar. I'm glad you're not in it.
But I was telling I said, you know, no, I'm
not saying I don't remember the pain. I mean, I
remember it, but it's like it was. It's a it's
a moment, it's your body, it's a moment. I remember
all kinds of pain. I've broken my leg, I've done that,
all kind of stuff I bring over the years. But
(19:20):
I said, no, words really do they get seared into
your brain. So I'm thinking, for you, is it kind
of saying was it? Is it more than fifty or what? Like?
What kind of a sense was the verbal abuse versus
the physical abuse you've had both?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, I agree, I agree with you. For me, the
memory of the physical pain you can compartmentalize and disassociate
from us. But the words that people say, especially when
they're building a person of character, they shape your mind.
(19:58):
I mean it. The lessons you learn from the people
responsible for raising you and teaching you that community, that
village are the only messages sometimes. I mean, I can't
imagine what my life would have been like without public education,
(20:21):
you know, Like I only had that because it was
the law, you know, And I look at the way
my family used words to shape the way I saw
my place in the world. And it was so small
and restricted. I mean it lasted for forty five years.
(20:46):
You know, I truly believed when I wrote this book
and I walked into my grandfather's room as he was
dying to say, you know, I did this. I thought
he was going to kill me. I really did. And
you know, it's it's a wild thing to have your
entire life come down to some sentences.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yes, for some reason for me, forty five is a
transformer year for me too. And that's that's nothing I
related to you. I'm like, yeah, I turned forty five.
I changed my life. Yeah I did. And I forgave
my father. He didn't accept it, told me to go
f myself and all this stuff. He was really mean
to me and everything. And I was like, but you
(21:28):
know what I do. I forgive him and sort of
folks who were involved, my grandmother, allough I forgot. I
forgave all of them exactly. I had to finally shed
them from me.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
When you say, when you say forgive, can you expand
on what that might feel like for you?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
But Nae Brown, at forty five heard the saying, and
it changed my life. She said, and I quote true
forgiveness is giving up the hope that path could be
any difference. Yeah, okay when she said that, what it
did for me is that went okay, James, even if
(22:10):
he said he was sorry, if he said Jay's out
a bad parent, yeah or whatever, l whatever, he would say,
I'm like, but all that stuff still happened, and there
are reasons why it happened that are beyond my control.
He's on gonna bring his own father, you know the stuff.
I'm like. So I'm like, so for me, it was
(22:32):
like I'm carrying his turmoil and burden. I'm carrying my
turmoil and burden and it ain't feed me in any way.
That's positive, girlfriend, And it's not doing anything for him,
It's not. It's not doing anything for me. Why do
I just carry the strength of my other grandmother, the
(22:53):
strength of my auntswer came in my strength of my uncle.
I love the strength of my stepfather. He was great.
Like I was like, I need to shift the focus
on those older brother like the folks that were there
for me. Yeah. So forgiveness and so forgiveness was for me.
For him, it was for me. It was for me.
I felt the need to. I don't know. I just said,
(23:15):
don't know why forty five, said forty five. I don't
know why that's the year or the age I think.
I don't. I mean maybe I don't. You think about
that too, because he said for what I was just
I was like, yeah, I was forty five. And literally
once I and I excuse my day, is I shit
you not, Sabrina. Once I did that, three major things
(23:36):
in my career happened that were wonderful. Right afterwards, Okay,
that's where I'm at now today. I gained a radio show,
became host my own radio shows, a lifelong dream. I
became a TV host. It was a lifelong dream and
I had come hot. Things happened. It was just like,
but that was after I shed all that weight. So
(23:56):
what he said to me the spirit when he said,
stronger to screw you and your forgiveness. You're an evil,
vile part in front of my aunt, in front of
your people, I was like, okay. And when my grandmother
she loved me, I go, I love your grandmother. I
love you for the time we were Okay, then before
you switched. And here's the part she switched and she
(24:18):
couldn't say I love you back. You couldn't say it,
and I was like, you know what. And when I
walked away, I was like, I still feel okay. And
that's when I started sharing my story and I got
speaking to engagements. I started, I started sharing my story
of other people. But I was like, the forgiveness was
for me. It was for me because I needed to
save my life. It's like for you reading this book
(24:41):
to save for you, grandfather, I have written a book,
I put stuff on. I'm putting some stuff on TikTok
or whatever because I got to save my life.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I mean, yeah, I suspect as you mentioned that there
comes a time when you start looking at your parents
as people.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yes, yeah, and mine. I don't call forgiveness. That's kind
of a hokey thing for me because I feel like
it's really related to religion. But for me, I do
have some understanding of why this. I mean, like I said,
(25:24):
monsters are made. I've really done a lot of research
into serial killers and true crime. I mean, these days,
it's really popular and it's easy to do. And what
I feel like the evidence says is that be these
aren't born bad they're made that way, and I don't
(25:45):
think that's a malicious intent. However, I do think we
protect abusers more than we protect kids. So when I
think about, like, I have no doubt my grandmother, you know,
did things to my mom, and I know, you know,
I suspect my grandfather, you know, did things to her,
(26:10):
like she learned all the things she did, and I
think I have memories of my great grandmother hurting me,
so I suspect she did things to her kids. And
that's why my grandfather was the way he is. I
think he got he went through World War Two, and
(26:30):
I don't know which stories to believe, but he did
some really bad shit over there, and then he came
home and it was the nineteen sixties and it was
let's pretend everything's okay. So I'm like, there are cultural
factors here, there are generational things in play. Like it
wasn't personal against me. I was just born into the
(26:54):
wrong place. And like you, when you and let those
people go as an obligation to something that they never
really signed up for in the first place, I think
that's what you would call forgiveness. But I just I'm like,
I don't I don't need you around me because you
(27:16):
don't do anything for me, and it's not safe exactly. Yeah,
it's not. I'm not angry, I'm not bitter. I'm just like,
it's not safe to be around you.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yes, and for me, I was the father I didn't
have for my children. Yeah, I made a conscious choice
for my two girls that I was gonna do everything
in my possible power. And their mothers were saying, we're
all we all came from like these bad child is. Yeah,
we're we're just like we're gonna do the opposite. And
(27:51):
you know, and I have two amazing grown daughters, I
have grandchildren. But I was like, but I was, yeah,
I got five grandchildren. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Can you imagine and treating a child, you know what
I mean? Like or one of those little kids coming
up and saying something and like, you know, somebody's hurting
me and then you don't believe them. That's what gets me,
Like we all grew up, how did we go?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I choose better, And I'm like, wait, no, my bar's
too low, Like why was I tolerating so much?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Like remember, girl, aren't you because you're why you're a millennial,
But you're close enough I was.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Gonna say, I'm right on gen X millennial, I'm right
that admitted.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, so you know it's like children are going to.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Be seen not heard.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
We hear that phrase. I think younger.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
I brought you into this world, I can take you
out of it. All those, all those, and that was
publicly acceptable to say, like, good old David, let's tell
me about player more. High school used to have the
paddle and you got paddled in front of your high
school class. And I'm just like, there was a man
(29:08):
whose whole job was paddling kids laughing, and that was
totally that was a government job.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Oh no, we have people the arts was it was
it was as I started maybe laugh. But in my
elementary school, we had to eat the paper signed for
our parents for corporal it kind of corporal punishment.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Corporal punishment.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
This is the seventies.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
And I'm like, your parents are like signing.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Said my mother to stay at home, moms, because I'll
come beat my children. And that's myself. So she didn't,
so we didn't. We never signed it. It was like
she was like she look like around the corner, I'll
come to school beat my children.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I'll come beat my.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yes, I'll do myself. So I never had never had
to thank God. But it was like, but it's just
kind of like that was that was wild. We have
these socially acceptral things. And then also the last key
kid thing, ye playing to somebody. I was nine years old,
a key around my neck. I used to walk to school.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I walked to elementary school.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah that was all this drop offs and pickups. No again,
not at all, and need to be home by a
third time and take out the chicken so we could
have dinner later. I get home like there was we
had responsibilities. Yeah, yeah whatever, but you do your home
run and all that stuff. And it was like, uh,
(30:32):
like this is like I could imagine my shuldar could
do that. No, no, I didn't know. I think they couldn't.
They could barely. It's funny you.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Say that because when I when I got married and
I started having friends having kids, and I saw all
of the crazy things they were doing for children, I
got so crazy to press like I was worried. I
was like I basically raised my brother and sister. I
did not child proof anything. We had a drop side crib,
(31:00):
like I didn't know, like I was nune and I
didn't know any better, and oh my gosh, like I
love that we're very safety conscious. But you know, but wow,
I'm like that people cared that much about their children
when I was having children is wild to me, Like
(31:20):
it was such it was so eye opening to see
parents who adored their babies.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Well, for me, it's watching my daughter's parents. So it's interesting.
It's very interesting. I told my because now my siblings
are becoming grandparents too. We're all becoming grandparents, and I
keep telling you, Abody that was the first the fair
I go, Folks, sometimes the hardest thing will be watching
your kid's parents because it might be very different than
(31:47):
what you're used to. Oh yeah, oh no, no, like James,
you're right, because sometimes you're like, well, the kids will
be fine. I found myself the old school a way
kind of You're right. It's kind of like they're so
on top of him, like they like top to parents,
and we didn't like, Oh my god, I guess I
gotta quiet. You know. They you know, they get on
(32:09):
this screen time and they have stuff that we never
dealt with. Oh I'm like, okay, I get it. I
gotta get me quiet.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Ian to be the fun grandpa who breaks all the
rules and then sends.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Them home, Papa Jamie. So we had a good time.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's the best grandpa.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yes, of course, but no, but that but that was
But I was like, it's it's interesting to watch them.
But you said they're really doting on their kids. They're
going to every game and try to get them into
every situation. And I was like, yet it's little jealousy.
I'm with you, jealousy. I'm like, I didn't get that.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, when my mother was raising my niece, it was
really difficult to watch. She tried to be that kind
of parent because it was a social media thing, and
I was like, what the fuck it's going on. But
then you know, she moved in with us and I
found out, oh no, no, no, it's still just going on
behind the scenes, and I'm like, okay, it to me,
(33:07):
it pushed me even That was kind of what really
pushed me to the end. Was you know, when you
see your abuse reflected in a child, like it is
an unholy, uncomfortable experience. And I just I got a
(33:27):
double dose because I was parenting that child too. But
just little things like I would reach over to smooth
her hair down, and she would flench, you know, because
you don't know, and it like makes you remember what
that looks like. I instantly knew what it was, and
I'm like, oh shit. And so then you start having
conversations like oh, yeah, you remember that one time, you know,
(33:51):
Mom hit me with a hairbrush and it broke, and
I'm like, yeah, wait, that's not normal. You know, I
have a kid now I'm a I'm like, oh oh,
but you just you don't see it until you see it.
It's wild how much that generation above us focused on
(34:12):
it's not that bad, that's not what's happening. You're making
a bigger deal like it was to this day. Like
my mother doesn't deny that what I'm saying is happening.
It just wasn't that bad. I'm just exaggerating. And I'm like,
there is nothing worse in the world than you having
every molecule in your body screaming in pain and someone
(34:37):
to be like really, you know, yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
One of the hardest chapters from you, chapter fifty four.
I mean, there's somebody chapters in here, folks that just what's.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
The title or what sex I would tell I would.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Tell you, Okay, I'm saying that there's many chapters that were.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
I suspect, I know, but just in case the same.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
But I'm just saying that there's many chapters in this
book that are who you're like, Okay, get you might
have to put down for a second. I mean, have
to walk away for a second. I have an edible
or something real quick. I mean you have to do
something instead of chapter She's very descriptive, and again they
come from a place of a child's perspective many times.
So that's when people are at home because want people
(35:26):
to read this book. It is it's really I mean,
it's just it's just so good. And I was gonna, okay,
which is do it? Okay? I think it's this one.
I stare at the blue dress lying in a heap
(35:48):
on the floor, my little black patterns shoes tossed the side.
I lay on my back on the white bed under
the white ceiling and try to send my brain away.
I understand that one. It's cold in the church today,
so I wrapped my arms around my chest to try
to keep warm. My knees are bent, so my little
white socket heels are just sitting on my on the
(36:11):
edge my privates exposed for the grandfather to do his inspection.
I am worried I might start screaming again, so I'm
gonna stop there. What goes into this story is the
fact that your father basically rapes you. Grandfather rapes you
(36:31):
in front of your your mother. And I was like,
even I've remember doing that before in my life. And
I was like, and it's and it's in detail as
a kid is saying it, using words like peepee, which
adds to the just the the the the trauma of this.
(36:52):
You are mine, he says. He stares at my body.
You will never escape me, or your mother says, as
you're laying in a gup. My mother says, I'm getting fat.
I was like, it's this is like, it's insane. You
know what happened in real life to you, but it's insane.
And I and it was like it was just sexuhites.
I didn't read twice. I didn't kind of stop and
put it down and read it again. It's just tough
(37:15):
and again, congratulations, we're getting do this. I'm like, and
having to write this again and relive it. I want
you to know that the listeners to know this. There's
some there's some serious shit inn this book. And so
I mean it's like, this is like some crazy, twisted,
fed up stuff and how your mother goes off and
you afterwards, I'm like, I just I'm just like that.
(37:37):
That was That was one of the tough chapters that
was so congratulations were making through it, because I just
think that's just anybody who reads it, the graduations we're
making through it, also, anybody who reads it. Again. I
want to say.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
How nice it is to hear you say that, because
it took a long time for me to believe it
was that bad. Because when I first started telling my
therapist like, uh, in the book, it's the text messages
like it just came in a torrent and when I
(38:13):
we would sit down in a session and she would go, Okay,
these are the chapters, you said, or these are the titles,
and let's talk about these stories, and I would have
to like spit the story out.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Oh okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Okay. They come as they were made, which is in
that voice, with that language, and that's why it's I
thought it was so important to be descriptive in that
way in these scenes because children do not have the
(38:49):
language to make this ship up. They just they just
don't they say pep, they say butthole, you know, like
they don't they don't really have the language to understand
to say something like dick, you know, like they just
don't know. And so when a child describes or can
(39:13):
describe something this way, it gives it a different kind
of validity that people can hear in a different way
because there is a lot of dismissing that goes on.
You know, obviously my family is saying that I'm lying
and that I made all this up for attention, and
(39:36):
you know, the idea was to not make people uncomfortable,
give people a different perspective. That's what I really tried
to do. And I really really worked hard to make
the language not gratuitous or grouth, but really descriptive of
(40:02):
the actions, because that's how I experience them, not for
the sinister things going on behind. Because when you look
at it that way and you say things like it's
really really bad, like I know, it sounds crazy, but
it feels so good because for so long everyone was like,
(40:23):
it's not that bad, like this is totally normal. And again,
these purity inspections are described in cases in Ohio and
Oregon and Utah like, this is sanctioned, organizational, systemic stuff.
(40:46):
And yes, you know he had extra proclivities, but there's
an umbrella of protection that still exists.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yes, we know that it once in a while. It
does come out every once.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
In a while, and you know, you're I know, the
Mormon Church has a lot of money and a lot
of influence, and it is very interesting how silent they
have been. I was prepared for more noise, but I'm
(41:23):
not complained.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I mean, you know, a lot of a lot. I
grew up Catholic, a lot of religions my life. Yes
there was my family. And because it's up to them
to say they have been messed with preaching your kids.
So it does. It's a systemic, and it's all over
and it happens everywhere. And that's just to say, again, well,
(41:46):
this is one of the chapter examples where I felt
like I was in the room and I don't want
to be there, but I'm so grateful that I gave
us a glimpse of that. So people know this, this
stuff happened. This is not a one undone situation. And
maybe if you went across someone who's young and try
(42:07):
to talk to you. Maybe reading this book will have
you more prepared to listen in a different way, like
listen in a way because listening is actually an action,
and I teach classes on the art of listening as
a whole. I do all thing like listening, active listening.
It's passive listening, act to listening. And I think sometimes
(42:29):
you just don't know stuff, and then you read a
book like Licking the Knife, what there is and like
your little background, think you there, thank you?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
That's the original painting.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I like a love the Lither painting. It's that that
you really go, oh, now I got some I have
some insights that if you see somebody, you can say something.
I think somes you just don't know if you, if you,
if you've been blessed them to have to go through
this kind of stuff. Again, it's a club. We don't
you're a part of like actual mon But if you
(43:00):
could be on the periphery and people look out, there's
a lot of kids going through stuff. People, And the
more people I do the show, more I do these shows.
I've done shows on male sexual abuse and females. I've
done I've done I've been doing this for ten fifteen years.
And there's just more and more. It's not that it's
happening more. It's always been happening, right girl, It's also happening.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yes, And we are now living in an age where,
for the very first time, you can post something accusing
someone of like this and it reaches two million people,
right That is like even YouTube and Facebook like they
(43:44):
were really cracking down on this stuff, and they would
they would protect the person accused. But I mean, I'm
a big fan of TikTok, and part of the reason
is because you can see information in real time and
once it goes it's forever. And that's what I wanted.
I wanted a record that could not be erased by
(44:08):
the Mormon Church, that could not be erased to buy
organized for religion or the government or whatever, because there's
a lot of culpability here. I am not out for
blood and vengeance. I don't think that being angry and
confrontational is going to get anywhere. I'm like, all I
(44:30):
want is to keep people away from keep kids away
from these people. Like if you see my mom at
the grocery store and want you grabbing your children and
running away. If you see my uncle at church, you
throw a fit and don't let him in primary Like
that's it. That's all I'm asking. I would also like
(44:50):
to get some you know, peace for the people who died,
but I'm running into quite a few brick walls when
it comes to that stuff until I get resources, which
my documentary company is looking into. But that's that's on
the deal right now.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I mean, the thing is, the thing is I mean,
it's your life is continuing, So this is this is
still a life living situation. You know, you're you're still
going to go through some more stuff. As you uncover
this and put this part to this to rest, you'll
be digging up some other parts, like is this something that is?
This is not it's this ordeal is over, but like
(45:30):
it's just something that you're You're still gonna be going
through and fixing the traumas and working through them and
that that's the beautiful thing about being a survivor. And
I just say, a thriver even better than a survivor
worth thriving in spite of licking the knife. I think
you think.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
So I'm going to take that as a compliment. I
am here for it. And I wanted to go back
to one thing you said a minute ago, which is,
you know, when you meet a kid that you think
might have issues like this, it is a very scary
idea to report. I'm actually my next project is publishing
(46:15):
this summer. It's an art book about it's the artwork
I created while I was writing the book because I'm
extra Oh thank you, and it is it is about
my emotional beasts. And basically, what I discovered is that
(46:35):
my language is different than other people. Like we talked
about forgetting like or forgiving. I don't. I don't really
do that because it doesn't really make sense in my
language and experience. But what I can do is talk
about my emotions as animals. And so what I was
going to say is when people, if you meet a
(46:57):
kid and you think they might be issue, find out
how you can make them comfortable. Kids, comfort, in my
experience is not very high priority, and especially kids like
you and I when you're hurting and you can't tell
(47:17):
anyone if someone offers you comfort, whether it's a popsicle
or a hug, or a soft place to sit or
letting me lay down or letting me go to the
bathroom fifteen times, like, sometimes the comfort is the best
thing you can offer.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, well, goes Bach. Why I said in the beginning,
we don't need a lot, We don't need big pomp
and circumstances, no gestures, like it's like it's like for us.
Actually what we went through that was the grand gestures. Yeah,
we went through was the giant stuff. We want something
simple and buy it, right.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
I just want a coffee shop, okay, and some good music,
like I'm pretty simple.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
A comedy on TV, somebody in some comedy. I like
your binge, watch while eating my favorite pizza and like
just kind of like yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
And if you're reading my book and you get uncomfortable
and you have to put it down, do something comfortable,
like do something very gentle for yourself, because if you
have a reaction like like you do, like it's because
it's you recognize trauma, like you know, like you're empathizing
and that's a good thing because you're a kind person,
(48:41):
you know, Like that's okay, Just take a moment, take
care of yourself.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
It is feeling bad, that's.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, step away, go have shower, or watch a
funny TV show, you know, like something soft and gentle.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
I get that. I talk to you forever look at
a night. Same. So when your art book comes out,
you have to come back on the show.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yes, please, I would love to. And like I said,
it's in the formatting stages that it's it's literally just
art with a few words, and it's emotional beasts.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
I'd love to see it. I'd love to kind of
delve into that too.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
About this, I'll put you on a pre read list.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Thank you. I'm a painter myself, so I have I.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Oh my gosh, Well, then share some artwork.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I will. I will do that too. I think it's
I think it's one of one of the wins that
you and I have and many others, is that we
are we can express ourselves period. For one. Yeah, after
the expiritus, we've gone through the we're able to express ourselves.
And we're not some crazy lounda people sitting, you know,
drooling in the corner. And I feel bad for those
(49:50):
that do. I'm saying for us that we, you and
I are fortunate that we can actually express ourselves in
any form. I don't think that lightly. And I guess
that's that's just some thing, whether it's poetry or or singing,
or writing or art or dance, or whatever. I think
that you know, that's a that's a gift for us,
(50:10):
the gift, Agreed.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
I appreciate you sharing a good conversation, which is one
of my fill my cup things to let me too.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
I love, I love talking to everybody. Everybody has a story.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I love, I love, Agreed, and I love hearing other
people connect with mine because for so long it was
so quiet. So thank you for connecting and sharing all
of your experiences because it filled my heart today.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Thank you again. We're private club. That's not the fun club,
but we're part of this part of similar club, Agreed,
answervived out now. Seriously, folks, I talk page turner. It's
a page turner. Like you, you will not want to
(51:04):
put it down. Go to Amazon and you don't get
off there really at the run. You got a phone,
a tablet, whatever, go on there, order it. Say James
sent you butt and get it now or your bookstores wherever,
and just go go get it. I tell you it's
it's gonna it's gonna help you understand some parts of
our world and how some of us have grew up.
(51:27):
So I suggest this book wholeheartedly. So Brita if they
want to talk to you more about this stuff all
either want or whatever. Yes, where can they find you?
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Okay, TikTok is my number one. It's just my name
Sabrina Kapper. It's my handle's old Lady lit. It started
out as literature, but now apparently you know, yes, yes,
but I'm on all social media platforms. It's always just
my name. It is my history, and I send me
a d N, send me like comment, follow you know,
(52:02):
let's plan a book club. Like I want to talk
to people. I enjoy it, and I really really love
my TikTok community. So yeah, come come say hi.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
I will I following follow one TikTok pretty m a
t star myself. I know videos it's just been viral.
IM like, oh my god. Yes, I was sorry. I'm
fo you saw following me a couple. I'm sorry. I'm
trying to find you anywhere. I'll follow you everywhere, but
I'll tell you, folks, TikTok, I I never knew that.
I about seven videos that went viral in my life
(52:35):
there and I become this. I mean, it's it's been crazy.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
I'm telling you. It is the nicest community of people.
It's just so lovely. I love it. And it may
just be my fyp that I have cultivated brick by brick,
but I am here for it because my people are
just amazing. They're so encouraging. That is my favorite part
of the day. As I open up my TikTok comments
and it's you know, I verse six comments that are
(53:01):
like I read your book, You're awesome, and I'm like,
oh my god, I love these people, Like it's just
it's just happiness.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
I love it. Now, I put in a description all
everybodies you can follow all these Oh and let me say.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
One more thing just for your listeners, in case you're worried.
This is a happy ending. And when I say that,
I mean I am a happy person.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Now.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
It's a long journey. It's really difficult. Yes, I'm healing.
I'm in a lot of therapy and I take my
medications and I eat rite and exercise and do all
the things. And it's hard. It's hard every day. But
I really want to tell people like I am okay.
(53:47):
Like I have a great husband and son. I have
Nanny and Poppy. We see them all the time. My
best friend Kelly, you know, we just had girls again,
Like I am okay, and now I'm talking.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yes, that's where will end it if you had pages
on Facebook and everywhere else. Will talk to you next time.
When you are not fed love on a silver spoon,
you learn to lick it off the knives. That is
Lauren Eden who said that on this episode. I want
to tell you right now warning there will be some
difficult talk because this is YouTube. So I'm gonna have
(00:25):
to change some words or wording or wordage to say
certain things. God, I don't want you're flagged. I this
is a very important subject that needs to come out.
So I'm just gonna give you tell you now, warning, warning, warning, essay.
Cult stuff, I mean like it does father, grandfather, granddaughter, mother, God,
that's all kinds of stuff, situations we're gonna talk about
(00:48):
in some in some forms. I just want to warn
you now. Okay, guy, welcome. I between pages with James Jr.
I'm James, and let me read. So I want to
take you along, drinker is this book takes you along
on a journey. So I want to tell you my journey.
My girl who I work with, her name is Samantha,
and we get all kinds of artists. Sends me this bio.
(01:12):
It's short, folks, holding on. In twenty twenty four, Sabrina
confronted her ritualistic serial killer cult leader grandfather on his
deathbed and informed him she had written a tell all book.
She recorded the interaction and posted on social media, instantly
hitting over two million views. In December, she published her
book This, a sensational bestseller, True Kind tell alle licking
(01:37):
the knife. Well, I'll try to get in a second. And
when I saw that sentence, those two sentences, I said, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
let's get her on here. And I just want to
say congratulations to her because not just for the book,
because she made it in life. Sabrina Caepern, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh that's such a warm molom thing.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You seriously, no, you those of us who tell our
stories after I've lived that, living themcause I've done speaking engagement.
I'm gonna write a book on my story soon. But
I mean tell you it's it's uh, it's brave, you know,
for us to say it and to believe that people
want you to hear it because not about you. I'm
(02:23):
gonna ask your first question about you. I always felt like, well,
no one cares, no one's gonna care. They go they
don't hear my story. I believe my attackers. You said,
no one will believe me.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It was the same for you, it's it's exactly what
you said. I find the idea that I could say
it out loud and live was I could not. I
couldn't imagine a world where that that was possible. And
(02:57):
like you, when you take that leap and say whatever
the thing is that you've never said, Yes, goodness, it's
not the bearer you thought it was. I mean, it's awful,
but it's temporary.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yes, one of the things that I realize. So folks,
so you guys know this already who for a long
time follows me. I grew up in abuse of household,
dusive father. I was sexually assaulted and left for dead
and all that kind of stuff. So I've done that
and survived it, always survived it. When you say, when
(03:38):
you talk about out loud, I know it's uncomfortable for
people and and for you to write a book on this.
What got you through? What got you through saying I
got gonna push through this, I'm gonna write this book,
I'm going to release it. What kept you going?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Oh, such a good question, And I haven't been asked
that one, And I would say the practical answer is
a lot of therapy, a lot of different kinds of
the and the emotional or I don't even know if
i'd even say spiritual answer is not not letting it continue.
(04:26):
Like I finally decided that I was willing to put
my life at risk to stop the cycle. So you know,
the first words out of my mouth, which you could
see on my tiktoks, are I want you to know
(04:48):
I wrote a book, and that was very intentional. That
was the only sentence I wanted to say was that
no matter what happens to me in this room today,
a everyone's gonna know and there's nothing you can do
to stop it. Because I sent it to multiple publishers,
(05:08):
I sold it, I put it on multiple servers. I
I wanted to make sure I had instructions in place
that if I never walked out of that room again,
it was still gonna go.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
So your intention, you're very intentional. That is was going out.
So Michael going even at the self published it's going out.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, Like I went the traditional publisher route at first,
and the initial feedback was so kind and thoughtful, it
was great. It was just you have to water this down,
and I'm like, it's my life, Like I can't, I can't,
(05:57):
I can't, And what it was was that first person
perspective of a young child experiencing these but what for me,
it was my experience, like it is my childhood, And yes,
I realize it's horrific for other people, it's all I knew.
(06:20):
And it was I spent a long time letting other
people be comfortable around me, not talking about it. Kind
of what you were saying. You know, people people shy
away from difficult conversations, and I was not gonna let
this conversation be silenced again anymore ever, Like I just
(06:46):
couldn't take it another day.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It was a guttural thing for you. It was like
totally like this has to come out. I'm tired quiet
about it. I think it's I know some folks and
I want, I do want to say this. For some people,
I know it's this comes from a place of being,
of not knowing how to receive stuff like this and
how yeah, it's not as it's hard to comfort people
(07:08):
when it's uncomfortable. You don't know, you don't know, like
how do I so I know something? Because so for someonople,
I know it comes from a good place. It's just
kind of like what do I say to you? Like
what I'm like, and you and I we were like
just hug me. You're just saying good job. We're just
like we don't we're not looking for anything. That's specially
can you say.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
You can never go wrong with kindness, right and if
even if it lands wrong because you say the wrong thing. No,
I've never had someone be kind to me and it
feel bad, Like I get a love Jesus love. I
get a lot of love from people who are in religions,
(07:45):
and you know, I know it comes from a place
of kindness and that's what matters people.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I just want to make it make sure I don't
make sure I say I got people we get sometimes
it really is. It's kind of you don't You just
don't know either you've never experienced it, you know, to
do You're kind of like, well, I'm telling you where
people will go this. We're just simple. We're like simple. Fuck,
We're like, just be nice, just don't just a dick. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, And exactly what you said earlier, like just saying
I believe you is so incredible, Like that was the
most pivotal moment I think for me was the you
know when Nanny was like I believe you, Like if
(08:32):
you do nothing else. If anyone ever, especially a child,
talks to you and says uncomfortable things, just say I believe.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
You know you don't.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
You don't have to do much.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Just that that good. She when you was like like
the nanny never cries and she was crying. Well, your
husband kind of got on my nerves during years, Like
I got to say, it's a book. You put it
(09:05):
in the book. He got my nerves.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
You what I will take back all day every day
for a man who does the work for a man
like it was a huge surprise, and I don't think
anyone would have blamed him for leaving me. I mean,
I've been living a double life our whole marriage. But
(09:28):
to stay and do the work, to work through something
like this, our relationship has never been stronger. Like it's,
oh my god, like because there's a whole different level
of honesty, you know what I mean, And when with
honesty comes vulnerability, and with vulnerability comes intimacy and love
(09:55):
and all the wonderful things that I was afraid to
feel because you can't feel those when you're protecting someone
the casing.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yes, yes, oh yes, that wow, it's crazy. Okay, we
forgive you forgive you, dave give.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You fully take accountability for the lives I have told,
and I've told a lot. That I think is why
it's so important to understand where they all came from,
because it was always out of love and kindness. I
didn't ever act violently or maliciously in the untruths that
(10:37):
I told.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I got it. I get that. This book is almost unbelievable, folks,
I mean, like, read it, you're like that, and it
was folks, have dogged your pages in here.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Oh, I love that. I annatate all.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
My books the time, and it's this part just really
gets me so really quick, folks, I'm reading from the book.
I'm ready. I am a villain. I know. It's because
the mother reminds me all the time that I don't forget.
I'm a big girl now, almost five years old. I
(11:19):
should remember. I don't forget, but sometimes she thinks I do,
so she has to remind me with hits and kicks.
I haven't forgotten since last year when I was too
excited about hearing in Sunday school that Jesus loved me.
He loves me, and he always and he is always right,
so I can love me I was too little to
(11:42):
know that the mother's love hurts and is real and
Jesus is just make believe those two paragraphs like really
wins my soul. It was just kind of like, Wow,
this little girl goes from pain to joy to pay.
(12:04):
It's two paragraphs. Is just beginning of the book. That's
not It's it's like it's it's page eleven. I mean,
I mean like I was like, I'm like, oh my goodness,
it goes on. It goes on, trust me, it goes
on from the thing. But and it's written from the
little girl, your little girl perspective. So it's just to
(12:25):
hear that you want I want to hunt the girl.
It's gonna hung her.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
She'll take it right.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
It's like like but it's like, seriously, you're going to
a place of worship that tells you that Jesus loves you,
but your but your mother's being it out of you,
so to speak. That's kind of when I got out
of that. Is that my kind of closer in there?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, And I'll even give you a little inside info
that particular memory as as you read throughout the book,
like I had kind of compartmentalized them to a point
where when they came out, it was a surprise to
really talk about all of these things for the first time.
(13:05):
And that three year old memory came up when I
was home alone with my son and I had a
panic attack in front of him of that memory, and
it's very clear. I remember being very excited, you know,
if Jesus loved me, and that meant I could love me.
(13:26):
And I was a good girl, and we know from
psychological studies that that's a time in your life where
you really decide if you're a good person or a
bad person. And when I got home and I told
my mother, the memory of the beating she gave me
was so violent. It scared the crap out of my
(13:49):
son because I couldn't stop feeling the hit and the kicks,
and all I can hear her saying is, no one
loves you. You're the worst. I'm the only person who
will ever love you. And this is how you know
if Jesus loved you, he would save you, but if
(14:10):
he doesn't. And it was beat into me very young,
and it is really difficult to get it out and
just say that your own mother did that to me,
(14:30):
you know, it's really difficult. However, that's learned behavior, you know, Like,
I'm not the first person to go through this. I'm
just the first person I've ever read the first person
perspective of it.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, my thing wor was my father's rejecting me on
some level. You're saying, I don't like who you are,
so I'm going to beat it out of you or
let you or talk crap about you or whatever. Where
the things are growing all the way into my adulthood
and we don't talk at all. Now he's somewhere in
(15:11):
la and I'm over here somewhere. But it was one
of those things where I was like, as a kid,
I felt the rejection and so then so then when
he did give me attention, which was the wrong attention
of course, right was lapping it up. Isn't that crazy?
I was like, Oh no, because it.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Feels so gentle. It is so much better until the
very last second until it's not, and then it's worse.
But you don't know which one you're gonna get. Hence
that fight or flight systematic stuff, you know, like if
(15:52):
you never know what you're gonna get when your parent
touches you right, like, it's it's intense environment.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
It is as your parents. So and this book you
call her the mother. Yes, I love it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Oh good. I needed to give myself a little distance
in talking about these people, because especially with my with
my mother, she has many personalities, and for me, I
(16:34):
mentioned them some you know, the queen and the crone
and the you know. It seemed easier than trying to
connect that to marrying names.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
She says. At one point, I think you need some
time to think about what really matters in this life.
She says a little loudly. Not everyone is lust so
lucky at people looking out for the way you do.
You need to think about what family really means to you.
When I read this on folks, this page one ninety four,
(17:11):
the rest of the scenarios is fed up and I'm
I'm seeing when I've been told something similar tour some situation.
So I when I read it, I found myself as
I'm Rea I Fello a little sassy, and I'm like,
I'm seeing how smart ass that is and how ironically
(17:32):
twisted that is. Because my father said things like that
to me too, in the middle of a meeting or
the middle of a humiliation. And so I'm telling you, folks,
throughout this means the middle of book that, folks, that
was the one. I'm just like, I hear that, I
hear that, like like this is this is so f up,
it's soft, like it's just so effed up. The manipulation
(17:55):
that someone will using regular words that sound normal, and
that was their gift.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
They they knew how to not leave a mark on
the outside of my body, and they knew how to
use regular words. And it's part of the reason I
think I really delve into words and what they need
in the structure. And you know, I enjoyed the technical
part of writing for that reason, because words are so
(18:25):
powerful and they do not have to be fancy or
wild like they can be as simplistic as a three
year old child. And it's still, like you said, joyful
and sorrowful and engaging.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Do you think for you, we told you this all
the time I've had I had therapy two so I died.
This is great also to me, it is the words
that lasted longer than the actual acts done to me.
And someone told me they can understand that. I said, well,
thank god, you'll understand because I don't want you. I
(18:58):
don't want you. Yeah, you don't be a part of
the cloud that's similar. I'm glad you're not in it.
But I was telling I said, you know, no, I'm
not saying I don't remember the pain. I mean, I
remember it, but it's like it was. It's a it's
a moment, it's your body, it's a moment. I remember
all kinds of pain. I've broken my leg, I've done that,
all kind of stuff I bring over the years. But
(19:20):
I said, no, words really do they get seared into
your brain. So I'm thinking, for you, is it kind
of saying was it? Is it more than fifty or what? Like?
What kind of a sense was the verbal abuse versus
the physical abuse you've had both?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, I agree, I agree with you. For me, the
memory of the physical pain you can compartmentalize and disassociate
from us. But the words that people say, especially when
they're building a person of character, they shape your mind.
(19:58):
I mean it. The lessons you learn from the people
responsible for raising you and teaching you that community, that
village are the only messages sometimes. I mean, I can't
imagine what my life would have been like without public education,
(20:21):
you know, Like I only had that because it was
the law, you know, And I look at the way
my family used words to shape the way I saw
my place in the world. And it was so small
and restricted. I mean it lasted for forty five years.
(20:46):
You know, I truly believed when I wrote this book
and I walked into my grandfather's room as he was
dying to say, you know, I did this. I thought
he was going to kill me. I really did. And
you know, it's it's a wild thing to have your
entire life come down to some sentences.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yes, for some reason for me, forty five is a
transformer year for me too. And that's that's nothing I
related to you. I'm like, yeah, I turned forty five.
I changed my life. Yeah I did. And I forgave
my father. He didn't accept it, told me to go
f myself and all this stuff. He was really mean
to me and everything. And I was like, but you
(21:28):
know what I do. I forgive him and sort of
folks who were involved, my grandmother, allough I forgot. I
forgave all of them exactly. I had to finally shed
them from me.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
When you say, when you say forgive, can you expand
on what that might feel like for you?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
But Nae Brown, at forty five heard the saying, and
it changed my life. She said, and I quote true
forgiveness is giving up the hope that path could be
any difference. Yeah, okay when she said that, what it
did for me is that went okay, James, even if
(22:10):
he said he was sorry, if he said Jay's out
a bad parent, yeah or whatever, l whatever, he would say,
I'm like, but all that stuff still happened, and there
are reasons why it happened that are beyond my control.
He's on gonna bring his own father, you know the stuff.
I'm like. So I'm like, so for me, it was
(22:32):
like I'm carrying his turmoil and burden. I'm carrying my
turmoil and burden and it ain't feed me in any way.
That's positive, girlfriend, And it's not doing anything for him,
It's not. It's not doing anything for me. Why do
I just carry the strength of my other grandmother, the
(22:53):
strength of my auntswer came in my strength of my uncle.
I love the strength of my stepfather. He was great.
Like I was like, I need to shift the focus
on those older brother like the folks that were there
for me. Yeah. So forgiveness and so forgiveness was for me.
For him, it was for me. It was for me.
I felt the need to. I don't know. I just said,
(23:15):
don't know why forty five, said forty five. I don't
know why that's the year or the age I think.
I don't. I mean maybe I don't. You think about
that too, because he said for what I was just
I was like, yeah, I was forty five. And literally
once I and I excuse my day, is I shit
you not, Sabrina. Once I did that, three major things
(23:36):
in my career happened that were wonderful. Right afterwards, Okay,
that's where I'm at now today. I gained a radio show,
became host my own radio shows, a lifelong dream. I
became a TV host. It was a lifelong dream and
I had come hot. Things happened. It was just like,
but that was after I shed all that weight. So
(23:56):
what he said to me the spirit when he said,
stronger to screw you and your forgiveness. You're an evil,
vile part in front of my aunt, in front of
your people, I was like, okay. And when my grandmother
she loved me, I go, I love your grandmother. I
love you for the time we were Okay, then before
you switched. And here's the part she switched and she
(24:18):
couldn't say I love you back. You couldn't say it,
and I was like, you know what. And when I
walked away, I was like, I still feel okay. And
that's when I started sharing my story and I got
speaking to engagements. I started, I started sharing my story
of other people. But I was like, the forgiveness was
for me. It was for me because I needed to
save my life. It's like for you reading this book
(24:41):
to save for you, grandfather, I have written a book,
I put stuff on. I'm putting some stuff on TikTok
or whatever because I got to save my life.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I mean, yeah, I suspect as you mentioned that there
comes a time when you start looking at your parents
as people.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yes, yeah, and mine. I don't call forgiveness. That's kind
of a hokey thing for me because I feel like
it's really related to religion. But for me, I do
have some understanding of why this. I mean, like I said,
(25:24):
monsters are made. I've really done a lot of research
into serial killers and true crime. I mean, these days,
it's really popular and it's easy to do. And what
I feel like the evidence says is that be these
aren't born bad they're made that way, and I don't
(25:45):
think that's a malicious intent. However, I do think we
protect abusers more than we protect kids. So when I
think about, like, I have no doubt my grandmother, you know,
did things to my mom, and I know, you know,
I suspect my grandfather, you know, did things to her,
(26:10):
like she learned all the things she did, and I
think I have memories of my great grandmother hurting me,
so I suspect she did things to her kids. And
that's why my grandfather was the way he is. I
think he got he went through World War Two, and
(26:30):
I don't know which stories to believe, but he did
some really bad shit over there, and then he came
home and it was the nineteen sixties and it was
let's pretend everything's okay. So I'm like, there are cultural
factors here, there are generational things in play. Like it
wasn't personal against me. I was just born into the
(26:54):
wrong place. And like you, when you and let those
people go as an obligation to something that they never
really signed up for in the first place, I think
that's what you would call forgiveness. But I just I'm like,
I don't I don't need you around me because you
(27:16):
don't do anything for me, and it's not safe exactly. Yeah,
it's not. I'm not angry, I'm not bitter. I'm just like,
it's not safe to be around you.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yes, and for me, I was the father I didn't
have for my children. Yeah, I made a conscious choice
for my two girls that I was gonna do everything
in my possible power. And their mothers were saying, we're
all we all came from like these bad child is. Yeah,
we're we're just like we're gonna do the opposite. And
(27:51):
you know, and I have two amazing grown daughters, I
have grandchildren. But I was like, but I was, yeah,
I got five grandchildren. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Can you imagine and treating a child, you know what
I mean? Like or one of those little kids coming
up and saying something and like, you know, somebody's hurting
me and then you don't believe them. That's what gets me,
Like we all grew up, how did we go?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I choose better, And I'm like, wait, no, my bar's
too low, Like why was I tolerating so much?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Like remember, girl, aren't you because you're why you're a millennial,
But you're close enough I was.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Gonna say, I'm right on gen X millennial, I'm right
that admitted.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, so you know it's like children are going to.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Be seen not heard.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
We hear that phrase. I think younger.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
I brought you into this world, I can take you
out of it. All those, all those, and that was
publicly acceptable to say, like, good old David, let's tell
me about player more. High school used to have the
paddle and you got paddled in front of your high
school class. And I'm just like, there was a man
(29:08):
whose whole job was paddling kids laughing, and that was
totally that was a government job.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Oh no, we have people the arts was it was
it was as I started maybe laugh. But in my
elementary school, we had to eat the paper signed for
our parents for corporal it kind of corporal punishment.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Corporal punishment.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
This is the seventies.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
And I'm like, your parents are like signing.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Said my mother to stay at home, moms, because I'll
come beat my children. And that's myself. So she didn't,
so we didn't. We never signed it. It was like
she was like she look like around the corner, I'll
come to school beat my children.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I'll come beat my.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yes, I'll do myself. So I never had never had
to thank God. But it was like, but it's just
kind of like that was that was wild. We have
these socially acceptral things. And then also the last key
kid thing, ye playing to somebody. I was nine years old,
a key around my neck. I used to walk to school.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I walked to elementary school.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah that was all this drop offs and pickups. No again,
not at all, and need to be home by a
third time and take out the chicken so we could
have dinner later. I get home like there was we
had responsibilities. Yeah, yeah whatever, but you do your home
run and all that stuff. And it was like, uh,
(30:32):
like this is like I could imagine my shuldar could
do that. No, no, I didn't know. I think they couldn't.
They could barely. It's funny you.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Say that because when I when I got married and
I started having friends having kids, and I saw all
of the crazy things they were doing for children, I
got so crazy to press like I was worried. I
was like I basically raised my brother and sister. I
did not child proof anything. We had a drop side crib,
(31:00):
like I didn't know, like I was nune and I
didn't know any better, and oh my gosh, like I
love that we're very safety conscious. But you know, but wow,
I'm like that people cared that much about their children
when I was having children is wild to me, Like
(31:20):
it was such it was so eye opening to see
parents who adored their babies.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Well, for me, it's watching my daughter's parents. So it's interesting.
It's very interesting. I told my because now my siblings
are becoming grandparents too. We're all becoming grandparents, and I
keep telling you, Abody that was the first the fair
I go, Folks, sometimes the hardest thing will be watching
your kid's parents because it might be very different than
(31:47):
what you're used to. Oh yeah, oh no, no, like James,
you're right, because sometimes you're like, well, the kids will
be fine. I found myself the old school a way
kind of You're right. It's kind of like they're so
on top of him, like they like top to parents,
and we didn't like, Oh my god, I guess I
gotta quiet. You know. They you know, they get on
(32:09):
this screen time and they have stuff that we never
dealt with. Oh I'm like, okay, I get it. I
gotta get me quiet.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Ian to be the fun grandpa who breaks all the
rules and then sends.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Them home, Papa Jamie. So we had a good time.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's the best grandpa.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yes, of course, but no, but that but that was
But I was like, it's it's interesting to watch them.
But you said they're really doting on their kids. They're
going to every game and try to get them into
every situation. And I was like, yet it's little jealousy.
I'm with you, jealousy. I'm like, I didn't get that.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, when my mother was raising my niece, it was
really difficult to watch. She tried to be that kind
of parent because it was a social media thing, and
I was like, what the fuck it's going on. But
then you know, she moved in with us and I
found out, oh no, no, no, it's still just going on
behind the scenes, and I'm like, okay, it to me,
(33:07):
it pushed me even That was kind of what really
pushed me to the end. Was you know, when you
see your abuse reflected in a child, like it is
an unholy, uncomfortable experience. And I just I got a
(33:27):
double dose because I was parenting that child too. But
just little things like I would reach over to smooth
her hair down, and she would flench, you know, because
you don't know, and it like makes you remember what
that looks like. I instantly knew what it was, and
I'm like, oh shit. And so then you start having
conversations like oh, yeah, you remember that one time, you know,
(33:51):
Mom hit me with a hairbrush and it broke, and
I'm like, yeah, wait, that's not normal. You know, I
have a kid now I'm a I'm like, oh oh,
but you just you don't see it until you see it.
It's wild how much that generation above us focused on
(34:12):
it's not that bad, that's not what's happening. You're making
a bigger deal like it was to this day. Like
my mother doesn't deny that what I'm saying is happening.
It just wasn't that bad. I'm just exaggerating. And I'm like,
there is nothing worse in the world than you having
every molecule in your body screaming in pain and someone
(34:37):
to be like really, you know, yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
One of the hardest chapters from you, chapter fifty four.
I mean, there's somebody chapters in here, folks that just what's.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
The title or what sex I would tell I would.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Tell you, Okay, I'm saying that there's many chapters that were.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
I suspect, I know, but just in case the same.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
But I'm just saying that there's many chapters in this
book that are who you're like, Okay, get you might
have to put down for a second. I mean, have
to walk away for a second. I have an edible
or something real quick. I mean you have to do
something instead of chapter She's very descriptive, and again they
come from a place of a child's perspective many times.
So that's when people are at home because want people
(35:26):
to read this book. It is it's really I mean,
it's just it's just so good. And I was gonna, okay,
which is do it? Okay? I think it's this one.
I stare at the blue dress lying in a heap
(35:48):
on the floor, my little black patterns shoes tossed the side.
I lay on my back on the white bed under
the white ceiling and try to send my brain away.
I understand that one. It's cold in the church today,
so I wrapped my arms around my chest to try
to keep warm. My knees are bent, so my little
white socket heels are just sitting on my on the
(36:11):
edge my privates exposed for the grandfather to do his inspection.
I am worried I might start screaming again, so I'm
gonna stop there. What goes into this story is the
fact that your father basically rapes you. Grandfather rapes you
(36:31):
in front of your your mother. And I was like,
even I've remember doing that before in my life. And
I was like, and it's and it's in detail as
a kid is saying it, using words like peepee, which
adds to the just the the the the trauma of this.
(36:52):
You are mine, he says. He stares at my body.
You will never escape me, or your mother says, as
you're laying in a gup. My mother says, I'm getting fat.
I was like, it's this is like, it's insane. You
know what happened in real life to you, but it's insane.
And I and it was like it was just sexuhites.
I didn't read twice. I didn't kind of stop and
put it down and read it again. It's just tough
(37:15):
and again, congratulations, we're getting do this. I'm like, and
having to write this again and relive it. I want
you to know that the listeners to know this. There's
some there's some serious shit inn this book. And so
I mean it's like, this is like some crazy, twisted,
fed up stuff and how your mother goes off and
you afterwards, I'm like, I just I'm just like that.
(37:37):
That was That was one of the tough chapters that
was so congratulations were making through it, because I just
think that's just anybody who reads it, the graduations we're
making through it, also, anybody who reads it. Again. I
want to say.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
How nice it is to hear you say that, because
it took a long time for me to believe it
was that bad. Because when I first started telling my
therapist like, uh, in the book, it's the text messages
like it just came in a torrent and when I
(38:13):
we would sit down in a session and she would go, Okay,
these are the chapters, you said, or these are the titles,
and let's talk about these stories, and I would have
to like spit the story out.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Oh okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Okay. They come as they were made, which is in
that voice, with that language, and that's why it's I
thought it was so important to be descriptive in that
way in these scenes because children do not have the
(38:49):
language to make this ship up. They just they just
don't they say pep, they say butthole, you know, like
they don't they don't really have the language to understand
to say something like dick, you know, like they just
don't know. And so when a child describes or can
(39:13):
describe something this way, it gives it a different kind
of validity that people can hear in a different way
because there is a lot of dismissing that goes on.
You know, obviously my family is saying that I'm lying
and that I made all this up for attention, and
(39:36):
you know, the idea was to not make people uncomfortable,
give people a different perspective. That's what I really tried
to do. And I really really worked hard to make
the language not gratuitous or grouth, but really descriptive of
(40:02):
the actions, because that's how I experience them, not for
the sinister things going on behind. Because when you look
at it that way and you say things like it's
really really bad, like I know, it sounds crazy, but
it feels so good because for so long everyone was like,
(40:23):
it's not that bad, like this is totally normal. And again,
these purity inspections are described in cases in Ohio and
Oregon and Utah like, this is sanctioned, organizational, systemic stuff.
(40:46):
And yes, you know he had extra proclivities, but there's
an umbrella of protection that still exists.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yes, we know that it once in a while. It
does come out every once.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
In a while, and you know, you're I know, the
Mormon Church has a lot of money and a lot
of influence, and it is very interesting how silent they
have been. I was prepared for more noise, but I'm
(41:23):
not complained.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I mean, you know, a lot of a lot. I
grew up Catholic, a lot of religions my life. Yes
there was my family. And because it's up to them
to say they have been messed with preaching your kids.
So it does. It's a systemic, and it's all over
and it happens everywhere. And that's just to say, again, well,
(41:46):
this is one of the chapter examples where I felt
like I was in the room and I don't want
to be there, but I'm so grateful that I gave
us a glimpse of that. So people know this, this
stuff happened. This is not a one undone situation. And
maybe if you went across someone who's young and try
(42:07):
to talk to you. Maybe reading this book will have
you more prepared to listen in a different way, like
listen in a way because listening is actually an action,
and I teach classes on the art of listening as
a whole. I do all thing like listening, active listening.
It's passive listening, act to listening. And I think sometimes
(42:29):
you just don't know stuff, and then you read a
book like Licking the Knife, what there is and like
your little background, think you there, thank you?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
That's the original painting.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I like a love the Lither painting. It's that that
you really go, oh, now I got some I have
some insights that if you see somebody, you can say something.
I think somes you just don't know if you, if you,
if you've been blessed them to have to go through
this kind of stuff. Again, it's a club. We don't
you're a part of like actual mon But if you
(43:00):
could be on the periphery and people look out, there's
a lot of kids going through stuff. People, And the
more people I do the show, more I do these shows.
I've done shows on male sexual abuse and females. I've
done I've done I've been doing this for ten fifteen years.
And there's just more and more. It's not that it's
happening more. It's always been happening, right girl, It's also happening.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yes, And we are now living in an age where,
for the very first time, you can post something accusing
someone of like this and it reaches two million people,
right That is like even YouTube and Facebook like they
(43:44):
were really cracking down on this stuff, and they would
they would protect the person accused. But I mean, I'm
a big fan of TikTok, and part of the reason
is because you can see information in real time and
once it goes it's forever. And that's what I wanted.
I wanted a record that could not be erased by
(44:08):
the Mormon Church, that could not be erased to buy
organized for religion or the government or whatever, because there's
a lot of culpability here. I am not out for
blood and vengeance. I don't think that being angry and
confrontational is going to get anywhere. I'm like, all I
(44:30):
want is to keep people away from keep kids away
from these people. Like if you see my mom at
the grocery store and want you grabbing your children and
running away. If you see my uncle at church, you
throw a fit and don't let him in primary Like
that's it. That's all I'm asking. I would also like
(44:50):
to get some you know, peace for the people who died,
but I'm running into quite a few brick walls when
it comes to that stuff until I get resources, which
my documentary company is looking into. But that's that's on
the deal right now.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I mean, the thing is, the thing is I mean,
it's your life is continuing, So this is this is
still a life living situation. You know, you're you're still
going to go through some more stuff. As you uncover
this and put this part to this to rest, you'll
be digging up some other parts, like is this something that is?
This is not it's this ordeal is over, but like
(45:30):
it's just something that you're You're still gonna be going
through and fixing the traumas and working through them and
that that's the beautiful thing about being a survivor. And
I just say, a thriver even better than a survivor
worth thriving in spite of licking the knife. I think
you think.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
So I'm going to take that as a compliment. I
am here for it. And I wanted to go back
to one thing you said a minute ago, which is,
you know, when you meet a kid that you think
might have issues like this, it is a very scary
idea to report. I'm actually my next project is publishing
(46:15):
this summer. It's an art book about it's the artwork
I created while I was writing the book because I'm
extra Oh thank you, and it is it is about
my emotional beasts. And basically, what I discovered is that
(46:35):
my language is different than other people. Like we talked
about forgetting like or forgiving. I don't. I don't really
do that because it doesn't really make sense in my
language and experience. But what I can do is talk
about my emotions as animals. And so what I was
going to say is when people, if you meet a
(46:57):
kid and you think they might be issue, find out
how you can make them comfortable. Kids, comfort, in my
experience is not very high priority, and especially kids like
you and I when you're hurting and you can't tell
(47:17):
anyone if someone offers you comfort, whether it's a popsicle
or a hug, or a soft place to sit or
letting me lay down or letting me go to the
bathroom fifteen times, like, sometimes the comfort is the best
thing you can offer.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, well, goes Bach. Why I said in the beginning,
we don't need a lot, We don't need big pomp
and circumstances, no gestures, like it's like it's like for us.
Actually what we went through that was the grand gestures. Yeah,
we went through was the giant stuff. We want something
simple and buy it, right.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
I just want a coffee shop, okay, and some good music,
like I'm pretty simple.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
A comedy on TV, somebody in some comedy. I like
your binge, watch while eating my favorite pizza and like
just kind of like yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
And if you're reading my book and you get uncomfortable
and you have to put it down, do something comfortable,
like do something very gentle for yourself, because if you
have a reaction like like you do, like it's because
it's you recognize trauma, like you know, like you're empathizing
and that's a good thing because you're a kind person,
(48:41):
you know, Like that's okay, Just take a moment, take
care of yourself.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
It is feeling bad, that's.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, step away, go have shower, or watch a
funny TV show, you know, like something soft and gentle.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
I get that. I talk to you forever look at
a night. Same. So when your art book comes out,
you have to come back on the show.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yes, please, I would love to. And like I said,
it's in the formatting stages that it's it's literally just
art with a few words, and it's emotional beasts.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
I'd love to see it. I'd love to kind of
delve into that too.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
About this, I'll put you on a pre read list.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Thank you. I'm a painter myself, so I have I.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Oh my gosh, Well, then share some artwork.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I will. I will do that too. I think it's
I think it's one of one of the wins that
you and I have and many others, is that we
are we can express ourselves period. For one. Yeah, after
the expiritus, we've gone through the we're able to express ourselves.
And we're not some crazy lounda people sitting, you know,
drooling in the corner. And I feel bad for those
(49:50):
that do. I'm saying for us that we, you and
I are fortunate that we can actually express ourselves in
any form. I don't think that lightly. And I guess
that's that's just some thing, whether it's poetry or or singing,
or writing or art or dance, or whatever. I think
that you know, that's a that's a gift for us,
(50:10):
the gift, Agreed.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
I appreciate you sharing a good conversation, which is one
of my fill my cup things to let me too.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
I love, I love talking to everybody. Everybody has a story.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I love, I love, Agreed, and I love hearing other
people connect with mine because for so long it was
so quiet. So thank you for connecting and sharing all
of your experiences because it filled my heart today.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Thank you again. We're private club. That's not the fun club,
but we're part of this part of similar club, Agreed,
answervived out now. Seriously, folks, I talk page turner. It's
a page turner. Like you, you will not want to
(51:04):
put it down. Go to Amazon and you don't get
off there really at the run. You got a phone,
a tablet, whatever, go on there, order it. Say James
sent you butt and get it now or your bookstores wherever,
and just go go get it. I tell you it's
it's gonna it's gonna help you understand some parts of
our world and how some of us have grew up.
(51:27):
So I suggest this book wholeheartedly. So Brita if they
want to talk to you more about this stuff all
either want or whatever. Yes, where can they find you?
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Okay, TikTok is my number one. It's just my name
Sabrina Kapper. It's my handle's old Lady lit. It started
out as literature, but now apparently you know, yes, yes,
but I'm on all social media platforms. It's always just
my name. It is my history, and I send me
a d N, send me like comment, follow you know,
(52:02):
let's plan a book club. Like I want to talk
to people. I enjoy it, and I really really love
my TikTok community. So yeah, come come say hi.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
I will I following follow one TikTok pretty m a
t star myself. I know videos it's just been viral.
IM like, oh my god. Yes, I was sorry. I'm
fo you saw following me a couple. I'm sorry. I'm
trying to find you anywhere. I'll follow you everywhere, but
I'll tell you, folks, TikTok, I I never knew that.
I about seven videos that went viral in my life
(52:35):
there and I become this. I mean, it's it's been crazy.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
I'm telling you. It is the nicest community of people.
It's just so lovely. I love it. And it may
just be my fyp that I have cultivated brick by brick,
but I am here for it because my people are
just amazing. They're so encouraging. That is my favorite part
of the day. As I open up my TikTok comments
and it's you know, I verse six comments that are
(53:01):
like I read your book, You're awesome, and I'm like,
oh my god, I love these people, Like it's just
it's just happiness.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
I love it. Now, I put in a description all
everybodies you can follow all these Oh and let me say.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
One more thing just for your listeners, in case you're worried.
This is a happy ending. And when I say that,
I mean I am a happy person.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Now.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
It's a long journey. It's really difficult. Yes, I'm healing.
I'm in a lot of therapy and I take my
medications and I eat rite and exercise and do all
the things. And it's hard. It's hard every day. But
I really want to tell people like I am okay.
(53:47):
Like I have a great husband and son. I have
Nanny and Poppy. We see them all the time. My
best friend Kelly, you know, we just had girls again,
Like I am okay, and now I'm talking.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yes, that's where will end it if you had pages
on Facebook and everywhere else. Will talk to you next time.
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