December 5, 2025 • 38 mins
The Kidnapping of Alice Ingold is out today! Amazon.com or where books are sold! James chats with the author! Cate Holahan is the USA Today bestselling author of seven standalone novels and is the coauthor of the #1 Audible bestselling title Young Rich Widows and its sequel, Desperate Deadly Widows. Her novels have been translated into multiple languages and optioned for television. She has also written two original movies for MarVista Entertainment: Deadly Estate and Midnight Hustle. In a former life, she was a journalist and TV producer. She has written for Bloomberg Businessweek magazine, New Jersey’s The Record newspaper, The Boston Globe, MSN Money, and CNBC. A biracial Jamaican and Irish American writer, Cate is a member of Crime Writers of Color, Sisters in Crime, and the Authors Guild. She has an MFA in dramatic writing from New York University’s Tisch School of the Arts and a BA from Princeton University. She lives in Tenafly, New Jersey, with her husband, two daughters, and two dogs, and spends time in Jamaica, where she’s also a citizen. For more information, visit www.cateholahan.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I love good books. I know it sounds like just
like okay, James, great, how can't I say everybody see
you later? Now? I do. I love good books. I
love books that take chances and are rooted in some
kind of reality. Also, and this book has it all
get You get to hear their perspectives from several characters
throughout the book. But I thought it was very interesting. Also,
(00:28):
you know, Ai, we say that, we say those two
letters and people start just all kinds of reactions come
out of this and this book. There's a huge discussion
throughout the book about this program that this man is
putting together, and we go, we went about that. Also,
then there's a family dynamic. There's a family dynamic that
(00:49):
happens when someone's working really hard at a job. I mean,
I'll be there for their child. How's that child turn out?
A marriage? There's also the other side of this, people
who are fighting, who feel strongly about their beliefs than something.
They don't want something to happen. Then there are just
twisting turns kids. It starts out as you know, this
(01:10):
huge kidnapping. It's I can say I can see the rest,
but I don't get in trouble. I want you guys
to read it. But I'm telling you this book is
number two on Amazon's Kidnapping Thrillers Okay, number seven and
Domestic Thrillers Kindle and number nine and Domestic Thrillers Books.
It's just it's, oh God, if you're watching me behind me,
(01:33):
they kid having at Alice in Gold. But if you're listening,
it's called the Kidnapping Alice in Goal. My guests, let
me tell you about her a little bit too, this
kind of cliff Nues version, because she has a nice resume, folks.
This is not her first book. She has like six
other books out and they're all standalone, which I don't
ask about that. Actually they're all standalone like Winley. But
(01:54):
she has an audible series, which you know I do
that also here on this channel called Young Witch Widows,
which has as a sequel. That's that about. She's also
written for movies books on TV, Deadly Estates, Midnight Hustle,
b t, The Widower's Wife, and she's she's in it
(02:14):
for TV. So she's like doing TV books as she's
sitting all the multimedias and of Pythio Love. She is
that she is someone who's taking, you know, her experiences
in the world and refusing them into her books. She
is a biracial Jamaican and Irish American. Uh. She's a
member of the Crime Writers of Color, Sisters in Crime,
(02:34):
and the Author's Guild. We love organizations like that. Of course,
she has an MFA because she's smart. Two kids. She
has an MFA and dramatic writing from the York University's
TIS School of the Arts. Do you know what that is?
Looking up? It's a it's a really highly regarded school. Okay.
And she had this BA from some university called Princeton,
kind of crazy. And she's also a mother. She's also
(02:58):
a dog mother. And she's my new friend. And I
hope and I hope I say this name correctly. It's
Kate on hand.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I did it.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hi, girl, Hey, how are you doing? That was your
That was your intro. That was your intro.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Girl, love that intro.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I told people. I was telling her before we came out. Folks.
You know, we go in between the pages. In between
that I have things dog eared and I have notes,
and I actually read the books. This is my chance.
I love reading. It's my chance to read. I sit
on the subway, I get to read. You just tune
everybody out. Whatever. Congratulations on the book first, Kate, it's.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Really thank you so much. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
But I gonna ask you so because this book does
this book hasn't be getting a on a it's another
it's another stand I kind of want to know more,
but this is standulesss me, what is your choice? And
before you get to the story that usually do just
stand alone books.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yeah, well, it's interesting because I do have that the
series that I write collaboratively with with two other best
selling authors, and we're on book three of that book four,
as do. Probably we have to finish it in February,
so that will be my January. But you know, a
lot of times part of it is the genre, is
(04:13):
the fact that there is a psychological thriller bent to it,
and sometimes it's not. It doesn't involve like a detective
or you know, somebody where you can easily have a
crime kind.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Of come back.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
And so I think you know when the book ends,
sometimes that is the characters have arct in it, and
you know that's the completion of their story. I mean
this one, I do think we're pitching it in Hollywood
now and this one.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I think.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
The ending of the book could be like the ending
of the first season, and I do.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Go with it, but.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah, I tend to, you know, I never want that
thing where there's the same family, bad things keep happening too,
and you're like.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
What's up with this family? Like why does God hate you?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's true, yes, Or you're.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Sitting there and you're going, what is it that this
keeps happening? Like clearly something is wrong with y'all. So
I wanted it's you know, it's just so it's a
different thing.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I think it's easier when you write a detective or
an investigator of some.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Sort to keep up with like a crime of the book.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know that makes sense, and you're right, and you're right,
actually there is because I ain't of you all kinds
of authors stuff then and may of them have detectives
at the helm. This one is actually very character driven.
It's the family. Yes, I mean I work at coworkers.
I mean, they're just things in it. But like it's
you're right, it's not like all of a sudden chapter three,
a detective comes in and almost dominates the story.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, I mean there is police because it's a kidnapping
and there would be police, but none of the police
characters or point of view characters. It's all really the
mother and then the daughter's perspective.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
You know, how did she use that to go? And
speaking of between the pages, how DoD you just to
choose changing the first person in different chapters? I decided
do that.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, well, I wanted I wanted the tension of being
on the mother's journey of trying to find her daughter,
not sure if her daughter's alive or dead. That's one
of the issues with kidnapping, which is why I think
in some ways kidnapping is the scariest thing for a
parent because as awful as it is, you know, if
(06:26):
if you find out something horrible has happened to you
your child, it's just it's awful and it's it's done
and you just have to now grieve.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And whereas it's the not knowing what's happening.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yes, and you don't know if they're being if they're
being hurt, if they're trying to escape, if they're already gone, right,
And I wanted that so I wanted the readers to
kind of sympathize with her in that way, and so
I wanted her perspective, and then I wanted the perspective
of the daughter, because she's the one that's actually kind
of going through it, right, And so yeah, I kind
(07:01):
of wanted those two things. And I wanted the daughter
in past tense because I wanted the reader not to know, well,
she wrote this at some point, but we're not sure
if she's still alive, right, so that that doubt is there,
And if I had written her in present tense, then
you could kind of just skip ahead and go, well,
on chapter twenty eight, it still has her point of view,
(07:22):
so I'm pretty sure she.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Makes it, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And so I wanted to have that question hanging over
the novel.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And we're not going to tell you either or folks,
you have to read the book to find out, but
I'm telling you that the twists are I'm like, okay,
I my eyes got bigger, we got we got, we
got some of those twists. This family then going. We
have Brian the dad, who's, you know, a tech guy
who's worked on these AI things that he's really really
(07:54):
passionate about. Catherine the wife, I'm gonna say long suffering,
but it's kind of like, it's just like she's you know,
she's just like I mean, she's a typical to be
bay iceed be in a Bay area, folks. And maybe
you know Barry a tech you wife who you know
she sees what her husband's doing and reaping the benefits
clearly of the success. Right, We'll get to that. And
(08:16):
then Alice is the daughter. Of course, she's a teenage daughter.
There other characters. Another major character, Sean, who's also very
interesting too, a little older and whole. And I said,
I'm trying to watch myself because I don't give it away.
But it's just it's so what happens to everybody is
so interesting. It's just so it's so good. You guys,
you have to like it's a page turner. I'm telling
(08:37):
you you will turn the pages to be like, oh
my goodness. But back to the family. I want to
read this one little passage because would do it here?
How we do you justice? I lubricated my third say
I can read this. I'm going to read. It's gonna
be so folks, because I don't want to give certain
things away. I'm gonna read a piece Ski. It's like
(08:59):
in the book is skipping out of the day and
reading kind of pieces and a point. So well, please
bear with me. This is you know, homegirls being kidnapped
as a rant. There's a whole thing going on. So
the parents are you know, Catherine is frantic, you know,
she's she wants her she wants her daughter. Hello. But
Brian is like he believes in what he's it's it's
(09:22):
we just stop doing Okay, it's ridiculous, Brian says, still
debating with an imagined interviewer. Thanks to my technology, our
country will produced trillions more over the next decade without
any additional labor costs. People will likely be gifted these
units by the government courtesy of the taxes paid by
businesses like mine. What do Alice's kidnappers want the United
(09:45):
States to abandon all this possibility? Why China plugs along?
They want us all to work for authoritarian governments. Skipping down,
remembering line the calls remainder of this. There's a poem
in there. Alice's kidnappers refer to techno serfs living in boxes.
(10:07):
In their view, their micro studio is an opportunity for
home ownership. It's a coffin a place where dreams go
to die. You need to fix this, I shout. Ryan
rolls around. My hand flies out as if it's if
I'm spasming, rather than indicating my surroundings. These people are
(10:27):
incensed that you're building these these hobbit holes to live
in while creating technology that does white collar jobs. Brian
looks at me like he's Julius Caesar in mid March.
I'm making it so businesses can remain competitive. They'll use
this technology. Who will use it, Brian? Workers or business owners? Both?
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Deep?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
There, you two just like it? He hesitates both. The hiccup
makes me want to slap him. How many jobs will
your your tech replace? It will create jobs too? Really? Really,
I don't believe him, though I want to to me
(11:19):
that's the relationship.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yes, well, I think you know it's funny. I watch
so we've seen these stories where, you know, like Elon
Musk's first wife Justine, and Bill Gates's wife, right, and
all these all these wives after the divorce kind of
write these articles and glamor which I read, and you know,
(11:42):
they they explain what it was like to be married
to see these guys and some of the things that
they sacrificed with this idea that well, you know, but
they're a genius and they're changing the world for the better.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And so I will, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Kind of subordinate some of the things that maybe I
wanted to do, and I'll focus on philanthropy and I'll
you know, take care of the kids.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And it's not until.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Kind of the divorce or shit hits the fan, excuse
my language, that you see this change of is what
they're doing really for the benefit of the world or
is it the benefit of them and their ego and
you know, amassing control underneath them and not you know,
not for all of these kind of altruistic you know,
(12:26):
genius saves the world type of reasons that I've used
to personally justify, you know, the sacrifices that I've made,
maybe in my marriage, in in the the career goals
that maybe I had at one point that then I
threw out the window, because you can't have both people
never home if.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You want a family, right, And.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And so I think that's one of the things that Catherine,
the wife in this story and the mother, has to
grapple with, right, how much has she ignored you know
and kind of leaved, Oh, but my husband is this
genius changing the world for the better, because you know,
that's what she wanted to believe. And she's really forced
for the first time to look at what is he
(13:09):
actually doing because people have kidnapped her daughter, right, and
it seems that one of the things they're very upset about,
as you mentioned, is what he's doing, right, And so
then she kind of forces her to take this different
perspective and and you know that also creates tension because
her main goal is let's save our daughter, and he
(13:32):
has that, but at the same time wanting to preserve
both his corporate image, his own image, and uh, to
make sure that the kidnappers don't win any corporate secrets.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Or anything else.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And they go further she because that's exactly what she's doing,
because she further says, I think of every technological innovation
we've had in our lifetimes, phones, computers, three D printers,
the cell phone met We didn't need telephone operators, but
we got people designed for in cases, for a program,
software for problem size computer. Like she's going through it.
(14:05):
She's like, she's like everything you just said, she's going
through it. She's going But he's right on somethe because yeah,
we didn't need this, but he created this. I mean,
I'm through the job right now. That was never was
just invented a few years ago. Podcasting there was no
You had TV interviewers, you had radio. That was it.
Now I'm on my my own So I mean, so
(14:26):
he's right, So some things get shaved off, but it
can create other things. And my brother were laughing last
night we were talking about cell phones and said, I
remember I had a regular Sony ericson phone with a
little flip phone with a little antenna. And I remember
when the first phones came out with with camera technology.
(14:47):
And I kept saying, but I already have my digital
camera that I spent three hundred dollars at Target. And god,
now you think my pictures and you go send them
in and be developed the whole thing. He's like, but
it's on your phone, And I remember I was just like, no,
I already haven't get like now, I couldn't live with that. Hello,
But it's just funny. It's like it's but those places now,
those picture developed places are gone. Put us in charge
(15:09):
of our own destinies when it comes to picture sharing.
I mean, like it's just it's your book brings up
you have. You have several of those conversations in the
book between characters that I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Thank you well, because you know, I was a tech
reporter for a decade and I covered technology and so sorry,
I just said I was a tech reporter.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
I don't know why I repeated that.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
But but you were, I was got start it.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And so yeah, you believe me, you were. You were.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
GPT is not real time editing here, folks.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So so but one thing that I walked away from
and you know, I got to interview like Elon Musk
and Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos and a lot of
these people because at the time, the big public companies
were like Microsoft and IBM, and so being a younger journalist,
(16:11):
it was like, well, they're not public yet, so like
you can, you know, interview them because you know, there's
nobody that's investing publicly where like you can necessarily affect
the stock price and there's something's gonna so they kind
of let me cut my teeth on that. And what
I what I found was there is this kind of
(16:33):
founder culture, which I'm sure you know well coming from
that area, where these people are kind of celebrated as geniuses, right,
And I mean it's the idea is kind of like,
we'll worry about regulation later, We'll worry about who's affected later.
Let's let's build it, build it and they will come right,
So let's build it and kind of our you know,
(16:54):
the market forces will work it out, right. And that
is an attitude that I think is very real, and
it's certainly in the character Ryan, right. He feels like, well, no,
I don't know what jobs will create, but that's for
other people to figure out.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
It'll create jobs, trust me, it'll be fine. The computer,
you know. And I've read in my.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Research for this, I read a lot of AI books
and even people in you know, founders of AI companies
are worn that there's a difference between having a tool
that allows people to work faster and better versus a
tool that can outthink you, right, And that's kind of
(17:33):
the future of super artificial intelligence. And then the other
big question of it is just how do you compensate
society when this thing is drawing off of the collective
knowledge and creativity of the human race, as we've all
put in And I would argue, you don't want just
(17:56):
like the founders of the AI companies to benefit. That
would be like have a library and you're paying the librarian,
but and you're not paying anybody who's created any of
the books.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
That are going into the library.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And so I think that that is something that maybe
before we just assume market forces will figure it out,
you kind of want to have those discussions of, you know,
if this tech, how does everyone benefit from this technology,
and how do we compensate the people that have created
the knowledge that this stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Is drawing off of. And also what do we do then.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
About And this is a big thing with a lot
of the kidnappers, right, who are who are facing this
is how do you get your foothold in an industry
when the first jobs that are usually replaced by technology
are the entry level jobs, right, because those are the
easy ones. Those are the ones that we kind of
they're half apprenticeships, right. It's like people aren't paid very well,
(18:58):
but that's how you get in and you work your
way up and eventually you have a career that can
sustain a family. Right, But you have to enter somewhere,
and I think that we're noticing, so I think that
becomes the concern and also the other concern is sometimes
the jobs that replace the jobs are not as secure.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
So, for example, when there was a manufacturing revolution that
came to digital, a lot of those manufacturing jobs, Yes,
they were more dangerous and they had you know, downsides,
but they had pensions, right, they had a lot of security,
they had health insurance plans, they had you know, and
some of those jobs got replaced by like gigwork, right,
where people don't have those protections.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
There's no retirement fund, there's no four oh one K,
there's no pension, there's no health insurance.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Everything gets kind of put on the individual. And so
there is a thing about the the labor sectors that
you're replacing, and is what you're replacing them with something
that allows people to live at the same level that
they could before.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yes, And in this book there's a couple of discussions
in here too that reminded me of the fact that
you almost touched on it a little bit earlier. Just
you just said technology goes leaps and emotionality takes his time.
So I always feel like we're leave some men, he said,
we're leve We've figured out how to save the world,
(20:30):
so to speak. But in all the feelings. We're not
there yet, so people feel displaced, or feel upset, or
feel anxious or feel I feel like that's something too
when it comes to this kind of technology, because he's
saying it's gonna be great, and there's another the opposition
saying but he's like little, you know, you're making them
work in these hard hours, these low, tiny plates like coffins.
And I know the Bay Area, I know how places
(20:51):
can look, how small they are and all this stuff,
and I and I just remember, I remember one year,
I think it was nineteen nine, I'll try a place
five place to live in San Francis, Go proper, and
it was two percent vacancy because all the tech starts
were all living there. At first they were living they
were living out of their apartments. And I found me
this weird it's called efficiency apartment had no kitchen for
(21:13):
eight ninety five a month, and it was like and
I got a kitchen, Yeah, chen, got a kitchen. And
I found it. I need a place to live, and
I got it. But it was just like but those
The whole thing is that technology was like leaping and
everybody's we were coming in to money and you know,
evaluations asime against all those weeds. But what you're talking
about is that we leap forward with these wonderful things,
(21:37):
but then the emotional, the spiritual, all that stuff is
far behind. I think do you get this?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I think you know, it's just a matter of like
when do we start looking at the consequences and how
do you kind of direct things?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Because here's a good example.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I mean that, you know, the thing about the boxes
that was based on there's actually a startup that is
like essentially three D printing these very small apartments with
the idea that they're going to stack them up like legos.
I mean, it's like it's really it's a startup that
exists and they're going to stack them up like Legos.
And the idea for it was, oh, we'll put it
(22:12):
on the campuses of these tech companies, right, so we
can just take like our kind of our code monkeys just.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Put them in as boxes and they so okay.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
But on one level, you could go, well, I guess
that's a way to address the housing crisis there. But
at the same time, do people really want to live, work, eat,
sleep with everything like on the campus of you know,
of where they work? I you know, where where is
the separation and what kind of society are you building
if that's going to be the solution. And so it's
(22:43):
those kind of questions that I think that's I think
that's one of the jobs of art, right is it's
not necessarily the tech companies that ask themselves those questions.
They go, if we build it and let the market
figure it out, And then I think the artists are
the ones that sit there and go, well, let's talk
about this. We just let it run rampant, right. And
(23:03):
and you know, when I wrote this book, I really
I saw a lot of similarities between the kidnapping of
Patti Hurst in nineteen seventy five and today, because in
nineteen seventy four, it was the computer that was coming
to the office, right, and so you had a lot
of people. And it's in you know, Patty Hurst's letters
to her parents and all of her diary entries that
(23:26):
she that you know, became public as she wrote as Tanya,
where they talk about this fear that people become irrelevant
and replaceable right by machines, and what happens to humans
and what happens particularly to the middle class and the
lower middle class, right and I mean over and over
(23:48):
there's that theme. And I think now we're going from
the digital to kind of the age of super intelligent
you know, super artificial intelligence, and so those same questions
are coming up. You know, what happens to people and
also what happens to income inequality?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I mean, are we all democracy isn't in my opinion,
sustainable if you have people that can literally buy the
entire government, right that they can sit there and fund
every single senator and every single representative's re election campaign.
And we're getting to that point right where some people
(24:30):
would say that we're already there where you know a
handful of people can do that and do you And
so what does that mean then for the rest of us,
who you know, like to think our vote counts right
and like to think that you know, we have some
say in our.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Government and that we live in a democracy.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Well, what does it mean if you have some people
that have such unbelievable wealth and then you have other
people that you know can't afford health insurance?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And is that the kind of society that we're okay
with living in? You know?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
And so I I try in my book, the characters
all have different opinions, and that's partially where drama comes from,
right is you have characters that have different wants and
needs and you throw them together. But yeah, that's all
the backdrop, the political backdrop for this book.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah yeah, and it's not super political. We're talking about ourselves, lawd.
But there's there's a lot of stuff implied in here,
and a lot of stuff talk. There's actually conversations. I
read one of them. There's more into the conversations, and
it plays into the story. I mean, it really does
play into the story. And you'll start to feel it
as you're reading the book. You feel like you're there.
You're starting to feel you'll feel that. Well. I felt
(25:43):
the surroundings. I felt I was there, I felt was
going on. Okay, you have this point of view, you
have this point of view, you have this point I
started seeing it and feeling it as I was reading
the book. So congratulations on that. I want. I'm going
to make sure I told you that I really, I
really felt. I can't mention that, so I was gonna
(26:04):
think I can't mention that. I was gonna tell you, guys,
the last half of the book, folks, it's a true rip.
I mean, I can't emphasize enough. It was part of
my favorite parts of the book was towards that it
was the last I think I would say the last
like forty pages or whatever, like my like, I, yeah,
I have a dog, guys. I can't mention that. I
can mention nap, but I can mention this. H It
(26:30):
was weird because parts of the book I fell for
Brian a little bit, and I was I didn't think
I was going to m hm yeah, yeah, Brian's dadsy
Brian's dad. I felt for him a little bit because
(26:52):
you did write him very passionate about what's going on
for him and out and I and so I was
like and I was just surprised by my feeling of that.
Just go like okay, well he was just an out
doubt villain, you know. At first it's like you're reading
it and going okay, it's like okay, I understand that part,
and okay, I give that part in whatever. And he
(27:13):
almost like, well, Catherine, you married him, so you should know.
But like you know a little bit of that too.
You kind of like, well, girl, you married him. The
whole time you kind of what this you know, you
know what was going on your power of the world
in the Bay Area that I know, I I know
that world. You're part of that world, that stuff like
this could possibly happen. I'm not saying it's good or
you know, you shouldn't so upset, but it wasn't as
(27:36):
cut and dry as I thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, well, I you.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Know, I'm a big believer that when you write, uh characters,
everybody is the hero of their own story of course, right,
And so he's you know, he's the hero of his story.
He's he's bringing in a world that he believes in, right,
and you know, there might be there might be some
characters were for them, he is still the hero of
(28:00):
their story, right, Like some some readers that might believe
might see that, uh, you.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Know, I think that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Obviously the point of view is from the mom and
the daughter, and one of the things that they're they're
struggling with is is the kind of the human the
human side of it. And also she's struggling with how
much has she sacrificed, not only for him, but how
has that changed her as a mother, always putting his
job first and always put you know, and there been
(28:29):
tensions between him and the teenage daughter and how has
how has she maybe when has she been a good mom?
When is she kind of prioritized being like the good
wife over being a good mom. And she has to
reckon kind of with all of that, I think, over
the course of the story, and and the fact that
her daughter might not be alive obviously brings it all
(28:52):
into a high relief and starts to make her question
a lot of the decisions she's made. I mean, she's honest.
I think there's one point where she says something like,
you know, it's I liked the fact that he's as
powerful as he is. There is something intoxicating about being
with somebody who goes, I'm going to get this done
and I'm going to change things on a massive scale,
and they're doing it and you're you know, you're in
(29:15):
their orbit, right and that's and that comes with a
certain power for yourself. It comes with with a lot
of privilege. And she is not afraid to say, like
I that was part of it, that was part of.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
The appeal, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
And and I think she hasd to reckon with how
much has she kind of let her own vanity and
having that that power and that privilege you know, change
her basic beliefs about certain things.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yep, very true. Off camera, I told about the ending
and everything. I can't say it here. I'm telling you, folks,
you'll you'll love it or you'll hate it. You'll either
want you're gonna feel something, You're gonna totally feel something.
And it's it's and it was. It was very surprising
and very interesting. And the way it ends. And there's
(30:09):
an ending, I mean, there's an ending, and like, okay,
that's what we're doing. I can, like she said, I
could see that being the end of the first season,
season one, because I want to see what happens. I
kind of want to see what happens next and I'll
see me say anything. But if that is. But as
a book itself, it is, it's a standalone book. You
get a beginning, get the beginning, middle, and well, well
(30:31):
you kind of get a middle, middle, and end the story. Right,
It's like it's kind of like you come in on
it and then then you kind of goes to the end.
So there is an ending. There's an end, folks. You
can see it. But I just I just but I
can see there's something else to you. It's it's it's
just that good. I mean, I this book now makes
me once because I didn't I hadn't heard you before.
(30:52):
Now I want to read our other books.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Oh good, well, thank you?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Uh yeah this is this is my seventh standalone so
and I would you know, it's funny. I think, as
I always say, I write from a place of anxiety.
So I think these are my current anxieties because I
have teenagers, two teenage daughters who know it somehow.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Sorry, I know I raised I trust me. Is there
a metal? What this is all? What come? Adults? I
will tell you I love my girls, but I'm just
telling you.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's a yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It's true, it's not true. And here's the thing, girl,
because we will I know you probably will say, well,
we want these strong women to become strong women, right.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, And they are strong, and the first person they're
strong against is you because they know that that you're
as you're the parent, you're gonna love them regardless. So
it's tested out on you first.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You know.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
And so there are times where I'm like, yeah, I
want you to be strong, but I want you to
listen to me because I pay the bills in this house,
right exactly there is.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That it's like, but you know, and I think also
at this time, I'm starting to I'm a I have
fourteen and fifteen, and I'm sorry to be at this
point where you know, you're questioning how much? How much
am I helicoptering? How much is too much? When do
(32:22):
you back off when you And I think that you know,
my character is a bit further along than I am,
but she's kind of questioning all those decisions like did
I back off too much here when I shouldn't have?
Did I helicopter too much here? And kind of smother
And you know, I think all these questions we have
when trying to create a person who's going to be
(32:43):
independent and happy and productive in the world. And so
I think those anxieties came in as well as my
my tech anxieties of you know, what kind of job
would my kids have, will they be employable? Should I
hold onto this house that I plan to you know,
sell to pay for college because they're gonna.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Come right back, like you know, all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yes, and but but my prior books all kind of
deal with different anxieties, Like my first book was.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Dark Turns, which dealt with kind of my fear.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
At the time, I was pregnant with my first child,
and I was thinking, what if I bring someone into
the world that's just bad, Like what if she's just
like a bad kid and there's like nothing. And so
I started to think about that, and I was like,
and obviously, my my daughters are lovely, they're not bad children.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
But you know, you hear.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
These horror stories of like, I don't know, they were
just a sociopath. They're like they they were playing video
games in the room the.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Next thing, and you're they think they're like they're taking hamsters,
they're taking them outside. They're like, what, like, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, And so I guess I was.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
So there was this anxiety there, and I wrote this
story that deals with some very bad uh and so
I think that, yeah, it's kind of funny. I can
read it and hand to see what I was thinking about.
The Widower's Wife took place in the aftermath of the
financial crisis, and that really is a story about how
(34:14):
what are people how far are people willing to go
to hold on to the lifestyle that they've created. You know,
that's the theme. But you know these are all like
you deal with the kind of the anxieties are the
theme of the story, and then you have twist and
turns and the people.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Well, I mean if your books a twists are like
this book does as well, because I'm telling you he
was saying, page turner it is, and bye bye. What
I like about this book though, is that it really
you get these conversations within the story, so you're reading
like you know, whose side am I on? And again
it's not as cut and dry, but the backdrop is
(34:52):
their daughter is being has been kidnapped. So minus the
base level of everything is where's my baby?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Right exactly? And for and for the chapters with Alice,
is she going to survive?
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Right?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Because you know at different different points, I don't think
I'm giving away too much. Like at one point, you
know she one of them is unmasked, one of the kidnappers,
and that always creates a question like now she saw your.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Face, right, what are you gonna do? Right?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
So, so there's so hopefully that that kind of is
the engine that keeps the story.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
It's good kids, The Kidnapping of Alice and Gold Tell
you guys, it's on Amazon. Run don't want you have
to run, Just get on your phone, if you had
a store, when you're in a store, Barnes, whatever, go
over there, get it. It's it's it's it's trust me, James.
Think it's a TA out of ten. I loved it.
(35:50):
I really, I really did. I said, without giving it away,
once you guys, really tell what you think. Guys, get
it read and tell you think, because I'm telling you
I it was. It was good. So I really I
really enjoyed it. And Kate, thanks for being on this show.
Welcome back anytime.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Oh, thank you so much, James, and thank you so
much for reading it.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
It's so it's so exciting when you're like, wait, you
read it because you know and I get it because
if you're interviewing authors all the time, that's a lot
of books. It's a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
And I really appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I love reading, so from me, I'm a racist reader
and so I actually don't really read anything else outsides
of books. I like it for for these interviews, but
I really they've been very varied. I'm like, this is
really interesting stuff. So it's my pleasure. And so anytime
you come, like anytime any books come out, you any
time if they want to find you, just like to
converse with you or talk about books or to a
watch your books. Where can they find you?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
So I have a website, Katepolahan dot com and also
I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram. I am not
on Twitter or x or whatever you want to call it,
because I I mean, I think I have I reserved
my name just to avoid spammers, but I do not.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I do not use it because it's it's too aggressive
for me.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
And we all have to preserve our mental health subway.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
And I was like, I'm not I'm not engaging.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, I get I told you
yet that's uh, So follow her of course, pages on Facebook,
I'm everywhere you want to be in clean, TikTok everything. Uh.
James E Junior jail j Media. I always end these
shows because I'm just a huge believer on books and reading.
They're not going anywhere. If it's not audible, it's Kindle,
(37:38):
it's payback, hard back. People are getting physical copies. Again,
books aren't going to where folks, and I believe it.
I don't believe in book banning, you know't. I'm on
a show too. We don't believe in that either able
to have access to eraror books they want to read
across the board. And I'll support I still I don't care.
I'll say it, diversity of authors, there are types of books.
(38:00):
Who's writing them? This matter. Just support us. And you
see something things looks interesting, get it and just read
it and share it with somebody. If you think it's good,
share with somebody, let them know. So I'm all about that.
And go to your local library. It's get a library card.
I have mine. There's also a Living Online which is
like a library thing online. So also so much stuff
out there. Books are just are just the best. That's
(38:22):
why I did the show because I'm a huge book
fan myself. So we're not getting not going anywhere, not
going anywhere, You're not And I'm James E. Junior. Bye.
I love good books. I know it sounds like just
like okay, James, great, how can't I say everybody see
you later? Now? I do. I love good books. I
love books that take chances and are rooted in some
kind of reality. Also, and this book has it all
get You get to hear their perspectives from several characters
throughout the book. But I thought it was very interesting. Also,
(00:28):
you know, Ai, we say that, we say those two
letters and people start just all kinds of reactions come
out of this and this book. There's a huge discussion
throughout the book about this program that this man is
putting together, and we go, we went about that. Also,
then there's a family dynamic. There's a family dynamic that
(00:49):
happens when someone's working really hard at a job. I mean,
I'll be there for their child. How's that child turn out?
A marriage? There's also the other side of this, people
who are fighting, who feel strongly about their beliefs than something.
They don't want something to happen. Then there are just
twisting turns kids. It starts out as you know, this
(01:10):
huge kidnapping. It's I can say I can see the rest,
but I don't get in trouble. I want you guys
to read it. But I'm telling you this book is
number two on Amazon's Kidnapping Thrillers Okay, number seven and
Domestic Thrillers Kindle and number nine and Domestic Thrillers Books.
It's just it's, oh God, if you're watching me behind me,
(01:33):
they kid having at Alice in Gold. But if you're listening,
it's called the Kidnapping Alice in Goal. My guests, let
me tell you about her a little bit too, this
kind of cliff Nues version, because she has a nice resume, folks.
This is not her first book. She has like six
other books out and they're all standalone, which I don't
ask about that. Actually they're all standalone like Winley. But
(01:54):
she has an audible series, which you know I do
that also here on this channel called Young Witch Widows,
which has as a sequel. That's that about. She's also
written for movies books on TV, Deadly Estates, Midnight Hustle,
b t, The Widower's Wife, and she's she's in it
(02:14):
for TV. So she's like doing TV books as she's
sitting all the multimedias and of Pythio Love. She is
that she is someone who's taking, you know, her experiences
in the world and refusing them into her books. She
is a biracial Jamaican and Irish American. Uh. She's a
member of the Crime Writers of Color, Sisters in Crime,
(02:34):
and the Author's Guild. We love organizations like that. Of course,
she has an MFA because she's smart. Two kids. She
has an MFA and dramatic writing from the York University's
TIS School of the Arts. Do you know what that is?
Looking up? It's a it's a really highly regarded school. Okay.
And she had this BA from some university called Princeton,
kind of crazy. And she's also a mother. She's also
(02:58):
a dog mother. And she's my new friend. And I
hope and I hope I say this name correctly. It's
Kate on hand.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I did it.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hi, girl, Hey, how are you doing? That was your
That was your intro. That was your intro.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Girl, love that intro.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I told people. I was telling her before we came out. Folks.
You know, we go in between the pages. In between
that I have things dog eared and I have notes,
and I actually read the books. This is my chance.
I love reading. It's my chance to read. I sit
on the subway, I get to read. You just tune
everybody out. Whatever. Congratulations on the book first, Kate, it's.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Really thank you so much. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
But I gonna ask you so because this book does
this book hasn't be getting a on a it's another
it's another stand I kind of want to know more,
but this is standulesss me, what is your choice? And
before you get to the story that usually do just
stand alone books.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yeah, well, it's interesting because I do have that the
series that I write collaboratively with with two other best
selling authors, and we're on book three of that book four,
as do. Probably we have to finish it in February,
so that will be my January. But you know, a
lot of times part of it is the genre, is
(04:13):
the fact that there is a psychological thriller bent to it,
and sometimes it's not. It doesn't involve like a detective
or you know, somebody where you can easily have a
crime kind.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Of come back.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
And so I think you know when the book ends,
sometimes that is the characters have arct in it, and
you know that's the completion of their story. I mean
this one, I do think we're pitching it in Hollywood
now and this one.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I think.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
The ending of the book could be like the ending
of the first season, and I do.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Go with it, but.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah, I tend to, you know, I never want that
thing where there's the same family, bad things keep happening too,
and you're like.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
What's up with this family? Like why does God hate you?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's true, yes, Or you're.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Sitting there and you're going, what is it that this
keeps happening? Like clearly something is wrong with y'all. So
I wanted it's you know, it's just so it's a
different thing.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I think it's easier when you write a detective or
an investigator of some.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Sort to keep up with like a crime of the book.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know that makes sense, and you're right, and you're right,
actually there is because I ain't of you all kinds
of authors stuff then and may of them have detectives
at the helm. This one is actually very character driven.
It's the family. Yes, I mean I work at coworkers.
I mean, they're just things in it. But like it's
you're right, it's not like all of a sudden chapter three,
a detective comes in and almost dominates the story.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, I mean there is police because it's a kidnapping
and there would be police, but none of the police
characters or point of view characters. It's all really the
mother and then the daughter's perspective.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
You know, how did she use that to go? And
speaking of between the pages, how DoD you just to
choose changing the first person in different chapters? I decided
do that.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, well, I wanted I wanted the tension of being
on the mother's journey of trying to find her daughter,
not sure if her daughter's alive or dead. That's one
of the issues with kidnapping, which is why I think
in some ways kidnapping is the scariest thing for a
parent because as awful as it is, you know, if
(06:26):
if you find out something horrible has happened to you
your child, it's just it's awful and it's it's done
and you just have to now grieve.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And whereas it's the not knowing what's happening.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yes, and you don't know if they're being if they're
being hurt, if they're trying to escape, if they're already gone, right,
And I wanted that so I wanted the readers to
kind of sympathize with her in that way, and so
I wanted her perspective, and then I wanted the perspective
of the daughter, because she's the one that's actually kind
of going through it, right, And so yeah, I kind
(07:01):
of wanted those two things. And I wanted the daughter
in past tense because I wanted the reader not to know, well,
she wrote this at some point, but we're not sure
if she's still alive, right, so that that doubt is there,
And if I had written her in present tense, then
you could kind of just skip ahead and go, well,
on chapter twenty eight, it still has her point of view,
(07:22):
so I'm pretty sure she.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Makes it, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And so I wanted to have that question hanging over
the novel.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And we're not going to tell you either or folks,
you have to read the book to find out, but
I'm telling you that the twists are I'm like, okay,
I my eyes got bigger, we got we got, we
got some of those twists. This family then going. We
have Brian the dad, who's, you know, a tech guy
who's worked on these AI things that he's really really
(07:54):
passionate about. Catherine the wife, I'm gonna say long suffering,
but it's kind of like, it's just like she's you know,
she's just like I mean, she's a typical to be
bay iceed be in a Bay area, folks. And maybe
you know Barry a tech you wife who you know
she sees what her husband's doing and reaping the benefits
clearly of the success. Right, We'll get to that. And
(08:16):
then Alice is the daughter. Of course, she's a teenage daughter.
There other characters. Another major character, Sean, who's also very
interesting too, a little older and whole. And I said,
I'm trying to watch myself because I don't give it away.
But it's just it's so what happens to everybody is
so interesting. It's just so it's so good. You guys,
you have to like it's a page turner. I'm telling
(08:37):
you you will turn the pages to be like, oh
my goodness. But back to the family. I want to
read this one little passage because would do it here?
How we do you justice? I lubricated my third say
I can read this. I'm going to read. It's gonna
be so folks, because I don't want to give certain
things away. I'm gonna read a piece Ski. It's like
(08:59):
in the book is skipping out of the day and
reading kind of pieces and a point. So well, please
bear with me. This is you know, homegirls being kidnapped
as a rant. There's a whole thing going on. So
the parents are you know, Catherine is frantic, you know,
she's she wants her she wants her daughter. Hello. But
Brian is like he believes in what he's it's it's
(09:22):
we just stop doing Okay, it's ridiculous, Brian says, still
debating with an imagined interviewer. Thanks to my technology, our
country will produced trillions more over the next decade without
any additional labor costs. People will likely be gifted these
units by the government courtesy of the taxes paid by
businesses like mine. What do Alice's kidnappers want the United
(09:45):
States to abandon all this possibility? Why China plugs along?
They want us all to work for authoritarian governments. Skipping down,
remembering line the calls remainder of this. There's a poem
in there. Alice's kidnappers refer to techno serfs living in boxes.
(10:07):
In their view, their micro studio is an opportunity for
home ownership. It's a coffin a place where dreams go
to die. You need to fix this, I shout. Ryan
rolls around. My hand flies out as if it's if
I'm spasming, rather than indicating my surroundings. These people are
(10:27):
incensed that you're building these these hobbit holes to live
in while creating technology that does white collar jobs. Brian
looks at me like he's Julius Caesar in mid March.
I'm making it so businesses can remain competitive. They'll use
this technology. Who will use it, Brian? Workers or business owners? Both?
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Deep?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
There, you two just like it? He hesitates both. The hiccup
makes me want to slap him. How many jobs will
your your tech replace? It will create jobs too? Really? Really,
I don't believe him, though I want to to me
(11:19):
that's the relationship.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yes, well, I think you know it's funny. I watch
so we've seen these stories where, you know, like Elon
Musk's first wife Justine, and Bill Gates's wife, right, and
all these all these wives after the divorce kind of
write these articles and glamor which I read, and you know,
(11:42):
they they explain what it was like to be married
to see these guys and some of the things that
they sacrificed with this idea that well, you know, but
they're a genius and they're changing the world for the better.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And so I will, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Kind of subordinate some of the things that maybe I
wanted to do, and I'll focus on philanthropy and I'll
you know, take care of the kids.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And it's not until.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Kind of the divorce or shit hits the fan, excuse
my language, that you see this change of is what
they're doing really for the benefit of the world or
is it the benefit of them and their ego and
you know, amassing control underneath them and not you know,
not for all of these kind of altruistic you know,
(12:26):
genius saves the world type of reasons that I've used
to personally justify, you know, the sacrifices that I've made,
maybe in my marriage, in in the the career goals
that maybe I had at one point that then I
threw out the window, because you can't have both people
never home if.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You want a family, right, And.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And so I think that's one of the things that Catherine,
the wife in this story and the mother, has to
grapple with, right, how much has she ignored you know
and kind of leaved, Oh, but my husband is this
genius changing the world for the better, because you know,
that's what she wanted to believe. And she's really forced
for the first time to look at what is he
(13:09):
actually doing because people have kidnapped her daughter, right, and
it seems that one of the things they're very upset about,
as you mentioned, is what he's doing, right, And so
then she kind of forces her to take this different
perspective and and you know that also creates tension because
her main goal is let's save our daughter, and he
(13:32):
has that, but at the same time wanting to preserve
both his corporate image, his own image, and uh, to
make sure that the kidnappers don't win any corporate secrets.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Or anything else.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And they go further she because that's exactly what she's doing,
because she further says, I think of every technological innovation
we've had in our lifetimes, phones, computers, three D printers,
the cell phone met We didn't need telephone operators, but
we got people designed for in cases, for a program,
software for problem size computer. Like she's going through it.
(14:05):
She's like, she's like everything you just said, she's going
through it. She's going But he's right on somethe because yeah,
we didn't need this, but he created this. I mean,
I'm through the job right now. That was never was
just invented a few years ago. Podcasting there was no
You had TV interviewers, you had radio. That was it.
Now I'm on my my own So I mean, so
(14:26):
he's right, So some things get shaved off, but it
can create other things. And my brother were laughing last
night we were talking about cell phones and said, I
remember I had a regular Sony ericson phone with a
little flip phone with a little antenna. And I remember
when the first phones came out with with camera technology.
(14:47):
And I kept saying, but I already have my digital
camera that I spent three hundred dollars at Target. And god,
now you think my pictures and you go send them
in and be developed the whole thing. He's like, but
it's on your phone, And I remember I was just like, no,
I already haven't get like now, I couldn't live with that. Hello,
But it's just funny. It's like it's but those places now,
those picture developed places are gone. Put us in charge
(15:09):
of our own destinies when it comes to picture sharing.
I mean, like it's just it's your book brings up
you have. You have several of those conversations in the
book between characters that I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Thank you well, because you know, I was a tech
reporter for a decade and I covered technology and so sorry,
I just said I was a tech reporter.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
I don't know why I repeated that.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
But but you were, I was got start it.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And so yeah, you believe me, you were. You were.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
GPT is not real time editing here, folks.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So so but one thing that I walked away from
and you know, I got to interview like Elon Musk
and Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos and a lot of
these people because at the time, the big public companies
were like Microsoft and IBM, and so being a younger journalist,
(16:11):
it was like, well, they're not public yet, so like
you can, you know, interview them because you know, there's
nobody that's investing publicly where like you can necessarily affect
the stock price and there's something's gonna so they kind
of let me cut my teeth on that. And what
I what I found was there is this kind of
(16:33):
founder culture, which I'm sure you know well coming from
that area, where these people are kind of celebrated as geniuses, right,
And I mean it's the idea is kind of like,
we'll worry about regulation later, We'll worry about who's affected later.
Let's let's build it, build it and they will come right,
So let's build it and kind of our you know,
(16:54):
the market forces will work it out, right. And that
is an attitude that I think is very real, and
it's certainly in the character Ryan, right. He feels like, well, no,
I don't know what jobs will create, but that's for
other people to figure out.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
It'll create jobs, trust me, it'll be fine. The computer,
you know. And I've read in my.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Research for this, I read a lot of AI books
and even people in you know, founders of AI companies
are worn that there's a difference between having a tool
that allows people to work faster and better versus a
tool that can outthink you, right, And that's kind of
(17:33):
the future of super artificial intelligence. And then the other
big question of it is just how do you compensate
society when this thing is drawing off of the collective
knowledge and creativity of the human race, as we've all
put in And I would argue, you don't want just
(17:56):
like the founders of the AI companies to benefit. That
would be like have a library and you're paying the librarian,
but and you're not paying anybody who's created any of
the books.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
That are going into the library.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And so I think that that is something that maybe
before we just assume market forces will figure it out,
you kind of want to have those discussions of, you know,
if this tech, how does everyone benefit from this technology,
and how do we compensate the people that have created
the knowledge that this stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Is drawing off of. And also what do we do then.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
About And this is a big thing with a lot
of the kidnappers, right, who are who are facing this
is how do you get your foothold in an industry
when the first jobs that are usually replaced by technology
are the entry level jobs, right, because those are the
easy ones. Those are the ones that we kind of
they're half apprenticeships, right. It's like people aren't paid very well,
(18:58):
but that's how you get in and you work your
way up and eventually you have a career that can
sustain a family. Right, But you have to enter somewhere,
and I think that we're noticing, so I think that
becomes the concern and also the other concern is sometimes
the jobs that replace the jobs are not as secure.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
So, for example, when there was a manufacturing revolution that
came to digital, a lot of those manufacturing jobs, Yes,
they were more dangerous and they had you know, downsides,
but they had pensions, right, they had a lot of security,
they had health insurance plans, they had you know, and
some of those jobs got replaced by like gigwork, right,
where people don't have those protections.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
There's no retirement fund, there's no four oh one K,
there's no pension, there's no health insurance.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Everything gets kind of put on the individual. And so
there is a thing about the the labor sectors that
you're replacing, and is what you're replacing them with something
that allows people to live at the same level that
they could before.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yes, And in this book there's a couple of discussions
in here too that reminded me of the fact that
you almost touched on it a little bit earlier. Just
you just said technology goes leaps and emotionality takes his time.
So I always feel like we're leave some men, he said,
we're leve We've figured out how to save the world,
(20:30):
so to speak. But in all the feelings. We're not
there yet, so people feel displaced, or feel upset, or
feel anxious or feel I feel like that's something too
when it comes to this kind of technology, because he's
saying it's gonna be great, and there's another the opposition
saying but he's like little, you know, you're making them
work in these hard hours, these low, tiny plates like coffins.
And I know the Bay Area, I know how places
(20:51):
can look, how small they are and all this stuff,
and I and I just remember, I remember one year,
I think it was nineteen nine, I'll try a place
five place to live in San Francis, Go proper, and
it was two percent vacancy because all the tech starts
were all living there. At first they were living they
were living out of their apartments. And I found me
this weird it's called efficiency apartment had no kitchen for
(21:13):
eight ninety five a month, and it was like and
I got a kitchen, Yeah, chen, got a kitchen. And
I found it. I need a place to live, and
I got it. But it was just like but those
The whole thing is that technology was like leaping and
everybody's we were coming in to money and you know,
evaluations asime against all those weeds. But what you're talking
about is that we leap forward with these wonderful things,
(21:37):
but then the emotional, the spiritual, all that stuff is
far behind. I think do you get this?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I think you know, it's just a matter of like
when do we start looking at the consequences and how
do you kind of direct things?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Because here's a good example.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I mean that, you know, the thing about the boxes
that was based on there's actually a startup that is
like essentially three D printing these very small apartments with
the idea that they're going to stack them up like legos.
I mean, it's like it's really it's a startup that
exists and they're going to stack them up like Legos.
And the idea for it was, oh, we'll put it
(22:12):
on the campuses of these tech companies, right, so we
can just take like our kind of our code monkeys just.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Put them in as boxes and they so okay.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
But on one level, you could go, well, I guess
that's a way to address the housing crisis there. But
at the same time, do people really want to live, work, eat,
sleep with everything like on the campus of you know,
of where they work? I you know, where where is
the separation and what kind of society are you building
if that's going to be the solution. And so it's
(22:43):
those kind of questions that I think that's I think
that's one of the jobs of art, right is it's
not necessarily the tech companies that ask themselves those questions.
They go, if we build it and let the market
figure it out, And then I think the artists are
the ones that sit there and go, well, let's talk
about this. We just let it run rampant, right. And
(23:03):
and you know, when I wrote this book, I really
I saw a lot of similarities between the kidnapping of
Patti Hurst in nineteen seventy five and today, because in
nineteen seventy four, it was the computer that was coming
to the office, right, and so you had a lot
of people. And it's in you know, Patty Hurst's letters
to her parents and all of her diary entries that
(23:26):
she that you know, became public as she wrote as Tanya,
where they talk about this fear that people become irrelevant
and replaceable right by machines, and what happens to humans
and what happens particularly to the middle class and the
lower middle class, right and I mean over and over
(23:48):
there's that theme. And I think now we're going from
the digital to kind of the age of super intelligent
you know, super artificial intelligence, and so those same questions
are coming up. You know, what happens to people and
also what happens to income inequality?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I mean, are we all democracy isn't in my opinion,
sustainable if you have people that can literally buy the
entire government, right that they can sit there and fund
every single senator and every single representative's re election campaign.
And we're getting to that point right where some people
(24:30):
would say that we're already there where you know a
handful of people can do that and do you And
so what does that mean then for the rest of us,
who you know, like to think our vote counts right
and like to think that you know, we have some
say in our.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Government and that we live in a democracy.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Well, what does it mean if you have some people
that have such unbelievable wealth and then you have other
people that you know can't afford health insurance?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And is that the kind of society that we're okay
with living in? You know?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
And so I I try in my book, the characters
all have different opinions, and that's partially where drama comes from,
right is you have characters that have different wants and
needs and you throw them together. But yeah, that's all
the backdrop, the political backdrop for this book.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah yeah, and it's not super political. We're talking about ourselves, lawd.
But there's there's a lot of stuff implied in here,
and a lot of stuff talk. There's actually conversations. I
read one of them. There's more into the conversations, and
it plays into the story. I mean, it really does
play into the story. And you'll start to feel it
as you're reading the book. You feel like you're there.
You're starting to feel you'll feel that. Well. I felt
(25:43):
the surroundings. I felt I was there, I felt was
going on. Okay, you have this point of view, you
have this point of view, you have this point I
started seeing it and feeling it as I was reading
the book. So congratulations on that. I want. I'm going
to make sure I told you that I really, I
really felt. I can't mention that, so I was gonna
(26:04):
think I can't mention that. I was gonna tell you, guys,
the last half of the book, folks, it's a true rip.
I mean, I can't emphasize enough. It was part of
my favorite parts of the book was towards that it
was the last I think I would say the last
like forty pages or whatever, like my like, I, yeah,
I have a dog, guys. I can't mention that. I
can mention nap, but I can mention this. H It
(26:30):
was weird because parts of the book I fell for
Brian a little bit, and I was I didn't think
I was going to m hm yeah, yeah, Brian's dadsy
Brian's dad. I felt for him a little bit because
(26:52):
you did write him very passionate about what's going on
for him and out and I and so I was
like and I was just surprised by my feeling of that.
Just go like okay, well he was just an out
doubt villain, you know. At first it's like you're reading
it and going okay, it's like okay, I understand that part,
and okay, I give that part in whatever. And he
(27:13):
almost like, well, Catherine, you married him, so you should know.
But like you know a little bit of that too.
You kind of like, well, girl, you married him. The
whole time you kind of what this you know, you
know what was going on your power of the world
in the Bay Area that I know, I I know
that world. You're part of that world, that stuff like
this could possibly happen. I'm not saying it's good or
you know, you shouldn't so upset, but it wasn't as
(27:36):
cut and dry as I thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, well, I you.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Know, I'm a big believer that when you write, uh characters,
everybody is the hero of their own story of course, right,
And so he's you know, he's the hero of his story.
He's he's bringing in a world that he believes in, right,
and you know, there might be there might be some
characters were for them, he is still the hero of
(28:00):
their story, right, Like some some readers that might believe
might see that, uh, you.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Know, I think that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Obviously the point of view is from the mom and
the daughter, and one of the things that they're they're
struggling with is is the kind of the human the
human side of it. And also she's struggling with how
much has she sacrificed, not only for him, but how
has that changed her as a mother, always putting his
job first and always put you know, and there been
(28:29):
tensions between him and the teenage daughter and how has
how has she maybe when has she been a good mom?
When is she kind of prioritized being like the good
wife over being a good mom. And she has to
reckon kind of with all of that, I think, over
the course of the story, and and the fact that
her daughter might not be alive obviously brings it all
(28:52):
into a high relief and starts to make her question
a lot of the decisions she's made. I mean, she's honest.
I think there's one point where she says something like,
you know, it's I liked the fact that he's as
powerful as he is. There is something intoxicating about being
with somebody who goes, I'm going to get this done
and I'm going to change things on a massive scale,
and they're doing it and you're you know, you're in
(29:15):
their orbit, right and that's and that comes with a
certain power for yourself. It comes with with a lot
of privilege. And she is not afraid to say, like
I that was part of it, that was part of.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
The appeal, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
And and I think she hasd to reckon with how
much has she kind of let her own vanity and
having that that power and that privilege you know, change
her basic beliefs about certain things.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yep, very true. Off camera, I told about the ending
and everything. I can't say it here. I'm telling you, folks,
you'll you'll love it or you'll hate it. You'll either
want you're gonna feel something, You're gonna totally feel something.
And it's it's and it was. It was very surprising
and very interesting. And the way it ends. And there's
(30:09):
an ending, I mean, there's an ending, and like, okay,
that's what we're doing. I can, like she said, I
could see that being the end of the first season,
season one, because I want to see what happens. I
kind of want to see what happens next and I'll
see me say anything. But if that is. But as
a book itself, it is, it's a standalone book. You
get a beginning, get the beginning, middle, and well, well
(30:31):
you kind of get a middle, middle, and end the story. Right,
It's like it's kind of like you come in on
it and then then you kind of goes to the end.
So there is an ending. There's an end, folks. You
can see it. But I just I just but I
can see there's something else to you. It's it's it's
just that good. I mean, I this book now makes
me once because I didn't I hadn't heard you before.
(30:52):
Now I want to read our other books.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Oh good, well, thank you?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Uh yeah this is this is my seventh standalone so
and I would you know, it's funny. I think, as
I always say, I write from a place of anxiety.
So I think these are my current anxieties because I
have teenagers, two teenage daughters who know it somehow.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Sorry, I know I raised I trust me. Is there
a metal? What this is all? What come? Adults? I
will tell you I love my girls, but I'm just
telling you.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's a yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It's true, it's not true. And here's the thing, girl,
because we will I know you probably will say, well,
we want these strong women to become strong women, right.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, And they are strong, and the first person they're
strong against is you because they know that that you're
as you're the parent, you're gonna love them regardless. So
it's tested out on you first.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You know.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
And so there are times where I'm like, yeah, I
want you to be strong, but I want you to
listen to me because I pay the bills in this house,
right exactly there is.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That it's like, but you know, and I think also
at this time, I'm starting to I'm a I have
fourteen and fifteen, and I'm sorry to be at this
point where you know, you're questioning how much? How much
am I helicoptering? How much is too much? When do
(32:22):
you back off when you And I think that you know,
my character is a bit further along than I am,
but she's kind of questioning all those decisions like did
I back off too much here when I shouldn't have?
Did I helicopter too much here? And kind of smother
And you know, I think all these questions we have
when trying to create a person who's going to be
(32:43):
independent and happy and productive in the world. And so
I think those anxieties came in as well as my
my tech anxieties of you know, what kind of job
would my kids have, will they be employable? Should I
hold onto this house that I plan to you know,
sell to pay for college because they're gonna.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Come right back, like you know, all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yes, and but but my prior books all kind of
deal with different anxieties, Like my first book was.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Dark Turns, which dealt with kind of my fear.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
At the time, I was pregnant with my first child,
and I was thinking, what if I bring someone into
the world that's just bad, Like what if she's just
like a bad kid and there's like nothing. And so
I started to think about that, and I was like,
and obviously, my my daughters are lovely, they're not bad children.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
But you know, you hear.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
These horror stories of like, I don't know, they were
just a sociopath. They're like they they were playing video
games in the room the.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Next thing, and you're they think they're like they're taking hamsters,
they're taking them outside. They're like, what, like, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, And so I guess I was.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
So there was this anxiety there, and I wrote this
story that deals with some very bad uh and so
I think that, yeah, it's kind of funny. I can
read it and hand to see what I was thinking about.
The Widower's Wife took place in the aftermath of the
financial crisis, and that really is a story about how
(34:14):
what are people how far are people willing to go
to hold on to the lifestyle that they've created. You know,
that's the theme. But you know these are all like
you deal with the kind of the anxieties are the
theme of the story, and then you have twist and
turns and the people.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Well, I mean if your books a twists are like
this book does as well, because I'm telling you he
was saying, page turner it is, and bye bye. What
I like about this book though, is that it really
you get these conversations within the story, so you're reading
like you know, whose side am I on? And again
it's not as cut and dry, but the backdrop is
(34:52):
their daughter is being has been kidnapped. So minus the
base level of everything is where's my baby?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Right exactly? And for and for the chapters with Alice,
is she going to survive?
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Right?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Because you know at different different points, I don't think
I'm giving away too much. Like at one point, you
know she one of them is unmasked, one of the kidnappers,
and that always creates a question like now she saw your.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Face, right, what are you gonna do? Right?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
So, so there's so hopefully that that kind of is
the engine that keeps the story.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
It's good kids, The Kidnapping of Alice and Gold Tell
you guys, it's on Amazon. Run don't want you have
to run, Just get on your phone, if you had
a store, when you're in a store, Barnes, whatever, go
over there, get it. It's it's it's it's trust me, James.
Think it's a TA out of ten. I loved it.
(35:50):
I really, I really did. I said, without giving it away,
once you guys, really tell what you think. Guys, get
it read and tell you think, because I'm telling you
I it was. It was good. So I really I
really enjoyed it. And Kate, thanks for being on this show.
Welcome back anytime.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Oh, thank you so much, James, and thank you so
much for reading it.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
It's so it's so exciting when you're like, wait, you
read it because you know and I get it because
if you're interviewing authors all the time, that's a lot
of books. It's a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
And I really appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I love reading, so from me, I'm a racist reader
and so I actually don't really read anything else outsides
of books. I like it for for these interviews, but
I really they've been very varied. I'm like, this is
really interesting stuff. So it's my pleasure. And so anytime
you come, like anytime any books come out, you any
time if they want to find you, just like to
converse with you or talk about books or to a
watch your books. Where can they find you?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
So I have a website, Katepolahan dot com and also
I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram. I am not
on Twitter or x or whatever you want to call it,
because I I mean, I think I have I reserved
my name just to avoid spammers, but I do not.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I do not use it because it's it's too aggressive
for me.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
And we all have to preserve our mental health subway.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
And I was like, I'm not I'm not engaging.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, I get I told you
yet that's uh, So follow her of course, pages on Facebook,
I'm everywhere you want to be in clean, TikTok everything. Uh.
James E Junior jail j Media. I always end these
shows because I'm just a huge believer on books and reading.
They're not going anywhere. If it's not audible, it's Kindle,
(37:38):
it's payback, hard back. People are getting physical copies. Again,
books aren't going to where folks, and I believe it.
I don't believe in book banning, you know't. I'm on
a show too. We don't believe in that either able
to have access to eraror books they want to read
across the board. And I'll support I still I don't care.
I'll say it, diversity of authors, there are types of books.
(38:00):
Who's writing them? This matter. Just support us. And you
see something things looks interesting, get it and just read
it and share it with somebody. If you think it's good,
share with somebody, let them know. So I'm all about that.
And go to your local library. It's get a library card.
I have mine. There's also a Living Online which is
like a library thing online. So also so much stuff
out there. Books are just are just the best. That's
(38:22):
why I did the show because I'm a huge book
fan myself. So we're not getting not going anywhere, not
going anywhere, You're not And I'm James E. Junior. Bye.
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