November 20, 2025 • 50 mins
Sir Dashing Junior was only knighted because they couldn't knight his father twice. Now he's determined to prove he's worthy of his new title. With an aspiring ranger, an awkward friar, and a book-loving orc, DJ will venture across the territory of Uh to reach the Amulet of the Goddess, proving that he's truly worthy of knighthood. Along the way, he and his companions will encounter a cursed author, a violent noodle cult, democratic goblins, and a whole lot more. It's a journey fraught with danger and discovery, and the territory is rich with monsters and magic, so is DJ's quest for respect really worth the cost? James is big fan of Aaron's! Aaron N. Hall is the author of the bestselling Wevlian Chronicles series, My Name is Hammerfist, and more. Follow him on his website for info on upcoming books. https://aaronnhall.com And follow him on IG for Caveman cooking!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I don't even know, folks, how this person even came
into my space, but you know how Instagram is, it'd
be suggesting people. And because I'm an author myself, because
I follow authors, because I follow crazy people, because I
follow whoever people who are bald, I don't know. All
of a sudden this person was in my system. And
(00:28):
it's because of his caveman cooking. If you don't want
to talk about, folks, you need to go follow him.
After you watch this interview, go we'll tell you where
you can find them. It is like the most genius
thing on earth. I'm telling you it's crazy. But also
he's an author, folks. And because he finds inventive ways
to push this book out there, I bought it people
(00:51):
with my own money, and I went to his site,
which will tell you how to get there, and it
has this signature it does it's in there. I hain't
got a special copy of Support because I support writers,
Indie ryers, I support the arts, as you guys know.
And this guest it's sposed called the legend of of
If you're watching me, there it is. If you're listening
(01:14):
there it is. And I'm so happy to have him
on a just a huge fan of his. Aaron and Hall.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hey Aeron, thanks man Hey, thanks for that intro. It's
a it's a pleasure to be here still to chat.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yes, very good, thank you for doing this. Actually, there's
one thing I'm gonna read really quick from your book,
okay that I related to. He took his plate and
vaulted over the table with the grace of a dancer.
DJ watched as commoners gathered around Sir Dashing to hear
(01:48):
another tale of slanging monsters or rescuing maidens. DJ drummed
his fingers on his new sword while he waited for
a barmaid to serve him a plate. As he studied
the blade, he realized that along the crossguard that his
name was engraved, but Sir Dashing was finally etched and
(02:11):
Junior was crudely engraved, as if someone forgot to add
Junior until it was too late. He scowled and put
it away. Why I read that I'm a junior. As
anybody knows, I'm James Lott Junior. This book reminded me
and my father be and my father when we were
(02:32):
in the same profession years ago, and how I had
to live up to that, but secondly, my name is
James Lott Junior. It's not James Lot. It's not James Lott.
And then maybe later Junior that for some reason, I
was like, yes, I know exactly how that feels. And
that's the been getting a book, Cloks. I just want
to tell you thanks for making it, thanks for thinking
(02:54):
it for us juniors out there.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, it's for all the juniors out there. Man.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I know it's not why you wrote it, but I
think it's a it's just funny. When I was reading
your book, it was like that stuck with me because
it's one of those things where if you have a
suffix after your name, a lot of times people don't
always take that as seriously as we do. Especially and
my father goes by James on Senior and I go
by James on Junior. That's what we do.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
That awesome, It's very cool.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
But you named them so you had Sir Dashing and
Dashing Junior, which I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, congratulations on the book.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Thank you, thank you. I'm really happy with how it
turned out, and I feel like the indie fantasy community
has really just embraced it and it's got some momentum
and uh yeah, the people just love the characters, they
love the adventure, and it's just it's resonating with people.
So I'm super grateful.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
What other book is this for you?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh, Legend of uh was my eighth book?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Has it? Well, I'm not that's a dumb quiet. I'm
going to ask that question. The question I'm going to
ask is as you go into each book, you finish
a book or maybe I don't, Maybe you're making a
processes you do sell books at once. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I do know.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, we can ask that in a second. But as
you get to your sixth, seventh, eighth books, do you
have a formula or is it still fresh every time?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I mean, in terms of how I go about producing
the book, I've caught kind of my formula. Like I'm
an outliner. I like to outline, so you know, I'll
let it an idea, percolate, marinate, just kind of like
you toul it in my head for a while, then
make an outline for the entire book, where it's like
one bullet per chapter of how I think things will
go go, be like how things will go. Then the
(04:38):
first draft, you know, that's one of the toughest parts.
For me, it's just creative constipation, just forcing it out,
trying to get it on the page. I know, I'm sorry,
but I love it.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, you get that first draft done, do a first revision,
handed to some beta readers, get their thoughts, then get
their feedback, do a couple more revisions, send it onto
the editor, get their feedback, and then a finished book.
So that's kind of my process in a nutshell. But
I mean, so many of my books feel so different
that I don't know, like it's it's even even though
(05:10):
you feel like you have the same map and for
every book, like the journey has still been different every
time in just small ways.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I guess you should be clear. You know you have,
you've you've written about different things. I should make that clear.
You have your books are not all I didn't like.
I didn't mean the formal, im formal in terms of
going into you answered it correctly. I'm just saying, yeah,
he has, he has different kinds of books. But is
but actually is there a through line between your and
your writing?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
A through line? You mean, like, is there like common
themes and stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Or are just like is there? You look you look
at your eight books. The main they could be all
toty different different stories or are but is there something
that either connects them, not like like literally connects, but
it's something that you're like all my books they're all
about romance, finding themselves, finding themselves or is there is
there any kind of like themes that.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Are Yeah, I definitely feel like there are some themes
in that are consistent through many of my books. Are
Like the main character who's a little unsure of themselves.
I think that's reflective of me and kind of like,
you know, for a lot of my life having to
feel like I had to prove my worth to those
around me. So you definitely get like the main characters
(06:24):
who feel like, you know, they're a little unsure of themselves,
I feel like they have to prove themselves. I also
love being critical of government and big corporations. You'll find
big time themes of that in all of my work.
But yeah, and I mean in The Wevelean Chronicles, my
first my epic fantasy trilogy, it's it's got pretty big
(06:47):
Christian themes because I was very religious at the time
that I was writing it. But I tried to write
it in a way that was like approachable for people
who weren't like religious. But there is stuff like that.
But I would say, like the biggest consistent themes you
find throughout all my work are kind of like the
reluctant hero trope and then being critical of just like
(07:08):
people who are in power. You know, That's that's what
I really like to do. And you'll get a lot
of that in the second legend of uh, you'll see.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Okay, well here's what's crazy too. I didn't lize it
was a comedy.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
So you went in thinking it was like a serious fantasy. Yea, man,
what was that? What was that awakening like of realizing, oh,
this is funny.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's that's a great question. You should be a host,
that's my question. So going in what taught me? Number One?
You should just go in and just a book by
its cover or whatever, like literally you should. You should,
especially if you don't know about it much about it.
I assumed I thought I kN about so I started reading.
I was laughing. And also, your book is so related
(07:56):
this this book is so relatable. I can regular times
because you're writing it in a certain time period of
fantasy land. Yet a lot of the dialogue it's relatable.
Riley makes me laugh a lot in the book, and
she's just like this tomboy who you know, she had
(08:17):
all these brothers. I was then, but he kind of
likes her and like it's like but the way he
she's teasing him, I was like, I could see this
book like a sitcom of sorts, but set and set
in this time, Like I could see this world coming together.
So it was it was almost like it was it
(08:38):
was relevatory in this a weird way that I just didn't.
I was like, oh, there's like there's jokes in it,
and this is this is one. Okay, speaking of that,
here's just one part too, the maybe a dog ear
jerk book and stuff. Where are these goblins? It's just
like this is the middle of book. The goblins at
They're great. At the mention of it, the leading goblin
(09:01):
raised his hands in the crowd fell silent. Indeed you did,
he said, King grig Knak and all of his cruelty,
mousee and barbarism is no more. More. Cheers feel the forest.
DJ couldn't clear the confusion from his face. He said
he was going to kill you. It put you to stude.
Didn't heed the goblin said, look, we don't even like
eating people. It's disgusting. It just made me laugh. I
(09:22):
was just real, and it just goes on and on,
like you don't hear goblins talk like that in books,
you know, And it's like tall trope of life he talked,
and you actually say, like there's this whole thing he
needs to think. We all do this. It's like, it's
that's what that was. So each each chapters relatory for him,
because I was just like, this is really funny, but
it's actually.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That it's it's interesting. It's uh. I In comedy, there's
like this thing called the benign violation theory that like,
you know, like if something is funny, it's because it
violates an expectation in a way that's relatively harmless. So
I was doing this without realizing what benign violation theory was.
But I figured it would be funny to write a
(10:05):
fantasy world as if with a lot of really like
subtle jokes, like you know, the main character DJ and Riley,
I mean they talk like American high school kids, you know,
and they're just in this fantasy world. Yeah, and these
goblins are also you know, they love riddles. But they're
terrible at them, so you know, and even with the goblins,
(10:29):
you know, saying, oh, like he said he was gonna
throw you in a stew and you know, we're gonna
eat you right like we don't even like eating people.
It reinforces harmful stereotypes. And for a goblin to say
something like that, it's just funny because you wouldn't hear
that in another like D and D high fantasy world.
So it's a lot of stuff like that that, if
you like, came together nicely.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And also though, but I don't want I don't want
to diminish you're quite the wordsmith. I mean, you do
use some great words in this in this story because
you're writing it from it puts a map in it
to you, guys, as a map of the world, so
you can see what's going on. Let's not get in there.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
It might be hard. They're gonna put it against the
background there you go.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, so there's a world, so and so I'm in
the world. I mean it, and you use some really,
I mean you just there's some there's some really great
writing folks in here. So it's not just it's not
pedestrian just like just silly stuff. It's silly in the
premises that you put that you put in the Predicamentcy's
(11:33):
in because there's an action adventure story, folks, But it
is that on purpose.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
No, totally. I mean the kind of comedy that I
enjoy writing is like the straight character, like the the everyman,
the the relatable person who gets put in silly, ridiculous
circumstances surrounded by silly and ridiculous people. I think that's fun. Yeah,
And I feel like it just really works for the
legend of us, like there is an enough seriousness to
(12:01):
ground you in this is a fantasy world, Like there's magic,
there's swords, there's stakes, there's occasional danger, but it just
kind of lovingly makes fun of the fantasy genre in
just a very affectionate way, and it just comes together
really nicely. Dashing, Yeah, exactly, Like I mean, Sir Dashing,
(12:21):
who do you a picture? You picture this gallant knight,
you know, who just can do no wrong. I was
kind of imagining like Prince Charming from Shrek to and
like the Prince from Enchanted. He's like kind of an
amalgamation of those two guys. But Sir Dashing is actually
a really good dude. He's not like a villain, you know, sir. Yeah,
And I think people kind of expect that when they
(12:41):
read the book and they're like, oh, I'm gonna yeah,
But by the end you're like, dude, Sir, Dashing's my guy.
He's awesome, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
As a junior that you know, the way you said
the book. At first, I'm thinking, oh god, he has
to fight his dad's image. He's so well liked this
whole thing. He only got this is nighty because they
try to get into it's all this stuff going on,
but you're right. You find out, oh, he's kind of
senior is kind of funny, and senior is like he's
full of it sometimes Okay, sure, why not? You know.
(13:11):
And then there's there's there's some parts of where you
have junior writing to his dad while he's wi his
adventures the signs Sciences love you, and I'm like, that's
interesting too. So there's heart. I thought I'm playing so folks,
there is heart in this too, but it's kind of like,
no again, that was another revelation. I thought, we're totally adversarial,
(13:31):
the usual I gotta be better than my dad kind
of story. Get off from under him, but he was
trying to get out from under him, but not like
to get back at him.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
No, totally. And something that I hear from a lot
of other readers as they are expecting, like Sir Dashing's
exploits to be kind of this like Gildroyd Lockhart Harry
Potter thing where you find out, oh no, he's made
up all these adventures. He hasn't done any of this stuff.
And it's like, no, he's the real deal, Like he's done,
he's done it all, and he loves him himself. You know,
he's a little like in his own business a lot
(14:03):
of the time, but when it comes down to it,
he is a really earnest dad and a good guy
when especially when it counts. So I don't know, he
was just really fun character to write that way. I
just I wanted to make sure he was flawed but endearing.
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I think you did that. It's in there because I
want a lot of people to read the book. But
I think you've done I think you've done that. Actually,
thank you, because I so when you're writing, is this
coming between the pages with James are here? So when
you are writing, you said you have an outline, but
do you allow yourself to really get fully immersed? Are
you that kind of lovely? Yeah? Then yeah, But he's
(14:39):
a question what if someone something I'm sure characters take
lives of their own. What if something really changes for
you as you're writing, do you go with him?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean I'm an outline writer
for the most part, but I definitely give myself the
freedom to take the story a different direction if it
feels better for the story, you know, because ultimately, I'm
just trying to write a really good, memorable story. And sometimes,
like the steps that I come up with in the
(15:10):
outlining phase just don't cut it. When the rubber hits
the road, you know, you have to be willing to adjust.
And I think after you know, writing and publishing eight books,
I've learned how to kill my darlings a little bit better,
especially than what I was doing at the beginning of
my career. So yeah, like I definitely leave wiggle room
for that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
It's a good question for you. When have you looked
back at your first couple of books, and so, what
are a couple of things that you see that you
got cheese and crackers? Because I can look at my
first interviews, I'm like, oh God, why did I say
that word ten times?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Listen. I mean, I try to give myself some grace
because my first book that I wrote is fore Ordained.
It's the first book in the Wevelyan Chronicles, that Christian
epic fantasy trilogy I was talking about earlier. It's about
a boy who is called by a dragon god to
be the next king of a kingdom that's fallen apart
under the rule of a tyrant. And this first book
in the trilogy follows his kind of reluctant ascension to
(16:10):
the throne as he's being tested by this current evil
king who will stop at nothing to maintain his power.
And you know, being fifteen years old from a small
town in Utah, you know, looking back, I just feel
like it was a very juvenile representation of authoritarianism in
that book that I could have done a lot better on.
(16:31):
But I just didn't know. I was fifteen when I
was writing it, so I was just I was pretty
pretty naive and ignorant. And I feel like the female
representation isn't very good either. It's like the two women
in the book that you get to know are like
the main character's mom and his love interest, and the
book like barely passes the Bechel tests but not in
like a meaningful way. Yeah, so I don't know. It's
(16:57):
and also the pros. You know, you get better you
as you grow older and you read books that are
beautifully written like Lord of the Rings and Wizard of
Earth see and stuff like that. It's like ooh, you
get inspired, and it's like, oh, I can make pretty
your pros. It's still easier to read, but really, like,
what's my reader there in the story. But yeah, all
(17:18):
that to say, people still love Forordained, Like I still
see five star reviews on that book, and in my heart,
I'm like, really, you guys liked that much. But you know,
it's it's you learn and your grow and you develop,
and uh that's just how it is.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, and I love that. I it's you have to
have brace for yourself. Just go, okay, that's what you'll
be what you know so and then you're writing will
keep going as you know more and as you take
taken more. Just for your title, you.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Name this area, Uh yeah that's a joke in and
of itself, because you know, like so many fantasy worlds
will have like a weird name. What if it's just
a but if it's just uh you know and uh,
I thought that was funny. So I said, you know what,
and that makes a great title to imagine, just like
the word big red letters, that'll make someone stop at
(18:10):
a Barnes and Noble and look at it does.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And for me, I want to go to the Nether Regions.
I also like to have also go to the Cradle.
Where do I want to go? I love it. I
just think it's so it's just very cool. But you know,
I do like the world. I like the name west Fall.
That's a great thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Like I want I wanted some parts to you. I
wanted some Yeah, I wanted some parts to feel very fantasy,
feel very high fantasy adventuresque, but also like there's the
Nether Regions. You know, why not?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I love it?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I do?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I love it. Before you release a book, do you
do you get nervous?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Uh? You know at this point, I'm gonna be honest,
not really. You know. It's it's kind of like when
I'm getting ready for release, I'm more so I'm thinking about, Okay,
how am I promoting this? Am I reaching out to
the right people. Am I doing enough to kind of
like make sure this launch is successful? That's what I
worry about. It's like, you know, am I launching this
with enough momentum that people are going to keep reading
(19:14):
it and with the legend of uh I handled it
really well for an indie author, if you know, if
I can toot my own horn. I put together this
spreadsheet of like four hundred authors and influencers, bloggers, critics,
and I contacted them one by one, you know, and
was like, Hey, you based on serial other books, I
think you really like this one. Can I send you
a free copy just for a review when it comes out?
(19:37):
And surprisingly a lot of them were like, yeah, send
it my way. So the book released with like fifty
early reviews on Goodreads. I think it was like forty
six by release date, which yeah. I have a friend
who's like a New York Times bestselling middle grade author,
Like she's you know, been on the New York Times
bestsellerst over and over again, and she said, Aaron, you
nailed it. Like, if you can have fifty reviews by
(19:59):
your release state, that book's got it's got legs, it's
got momentum, Like you're gonna be okay. And She's right,
you know, it's I think it's sing at like one
hundred and seventy six reviews now on Goodreads for an
indie title. That's pretty hard to hit. But yeah, it's
just it's got the momentum from its release. So that's
what I'm worried about. Like, as I'm getting ready for
(20:20):
is like, am I have I promoted this sufficiently?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
What people are starting to realize is you can have
a hit and not be a list quotes or B list. Yeah,
you can have a hit. There's there's there's an audience
for everything. And I'm like you, it's how do I
get to them now correctly, to the right people. How
(20:45):
do I get to show to the right like it
says I went to you with some of that. It's like,
how do I get this book into the right hand
so it looks like something like this.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
You know, no totally And that's the struggle. Yeah, it
is finding those people where they live and you know,
getting your book in front of them. It's tough.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Well, I know for you, like I said, I don't
know where you came from motion you talk, but I
know where you came from. It in my life, but
suddenly you were on it. And because what you give
with this book you from some of your other books too,
you still, but this one was almost ubiquitous for me
because you would do a reel or a post or whatever,
(21:23):
and you're like, I'm talking about Caveman cooking, and while
we're waiting, here's my book you were. I thought it
was very genius. I mean, I mean, I'm like being serious.
I thought it was very genius because I always I've
taught classes on this. It's all about consistency and just
getting people to see something over and over again, and
something it's in their brain and it's like I must
(21:46):
get booked. Like all of a sudden, you just like
I just I don't know why you get about you
to get it. And it's like, I think what you
were doing on social media was interesting because again there
are eight billion people on social media too. We're all hawking,
our weares on there, we're all trying to put something
so for you, especially when it came to this book,
was that a conscious day? Okay, Okay, now I've contacted
(22:07):
these people. He's influenced, but now I got it. Every day?
Is it like, is it like that for you while
you're writing a book, like every day, I gotta do
something with it.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, I mean I for a long time, I wasn't
taking social media very seriously.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I was posting occasionally whenever I felt like I had
something to post about. But it was at story Con
this year. It's a writing conference every year in Salt
Lake City and they usually get like big authors to come.
But my friend Zsdamanti, who's also like a really well
known indie fantasy author. He's doing it full time. He's
making a full time living as an indie fantasy author,
(22:44):
living the dream. And he was staying with me during
the convention, you know, because he's from out of state.
And I said, dude, don't buy a hotel. You got
my guest room, Like, just come hang out for free.
And during that time I picked his brain. Man. I
was like, how do you make it work? Like, how
do you make this work? And he said, dude, you
gotta be posting on social media often. You know, you
(23:05):
got to be posting content. You gotta be pointing people
towards your book. That's how I get people like in
the start of my funnel looking at my work. That's
what you gotta do. And I was like, damn it,
you're right. So I made it. I made it. I
made a plan. From that point on, I'm like, Okay,
I'm going to post five reels a week, and they
got to follow three rules. You know. One it's got
(23:26):
to be entertaining somehow. Two it's got to put point
to my books somehow. And three I just can't be
an asshole, you know. So everything I was making, like
ever since the end of February has followed those three rules. Yeah.
And there's been a few slip ups where I like,
I forget to plug my book and instead just like,
you know, give a silly thought or whatever. But the
(23:46):
Caveman cooking stuff was just a happy accident, Like.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I think it's genius. Please talk about that.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Thanks. You know, I was just goofing around. I was
goofing around in my kitchen. I follow this dude. He
calls himself Brokie Budget Meals or he will like, do
you follow his account?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I follow a guy who goes to like Dollar Tree
and stuff and does these cooking things for dinner for
ten dollars, dinner for five and six. I was the
same din I was the same guy now, but it's
the guy he has a bead.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
It might be oh yeah, I don't think I don't
think this guy's got a beard, but like, no, he
had BROKEI budget meals as wild dude. He's his energy
is off the charts, but he'll he'll go to like
AGB or Walmart and like spend seven dollars. And so
I made my own video, like making one of his
recipes where I just walked people through it, just kind
of mumbling and pointing and yeah and like doing a
(24:41):
little filmbs up yeah after every like construction. And I
posted it and it got like ten thousand views, and
I was like, ah, should I do another one? Let's
see how this goes. So I did another one and
it got like one hundred thousand views, and people were
starting to follow me and being like this is awesome.
More of this and I'm not to lie. At first,
I was annoyed. I'm like the author, like, this is
(25:04):
not why I'm here. I'm here to promote my books.
And then now you guys just want to watch me
do cooking. You know what, I'm gonna take this and
I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna put them together.
So if you're gonna watch this cooking video. You're gonna
get a book promo, whether you like it or not.
Like that's that's gonna be. Yeah, that's the deal here,
and it's working. Ever since I started doing that, I've
(25:25):
been selling more books, so I've kind of just learned
to embrace it. It was a happy accident that I
just kind of like commandeered into my own personal promotional
like endeavors. It's worked. It's working.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I know it's so. And I don't know if you've
seen it or not, but I have a viral video
out there and it's a thirteen second video I did
four years ago, and it was dumb on purpose. It
was a dumb video on purpose. It was literally one
of those things where it was like people, do you
(25:59):
dumb shit all the time, going to say something that
makes no sense and see what happens. And now I'm
defined by it and I just try to feel So.
I have a video where I'm standing in front of
my refrigerator. I go, you know you're black when you
have bread refrigerator, and that's it.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
That's a video.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
It's a video. That's why. It's all I said. And
I show a bread refigerator. I tell you, like, thirteen
seconds I do this and I'll harverse my deep voice.
I'm like, oh my god, you sound like you know
the grass ties and all. You sound like you get that.
So I put it out and it went viral, and
it's one of those things where I sat getting followed.
I would like this TikTok. But anyway, so people start
(26:39):
stitching it. I keep bringing I saw almost to be black.
So it's this whole thing. So it's been going it's
like a one hundred million views. It's been going on
for four years. I've gotten that's awesome. But here's the thing.
At first, I was angry, and I'm like, but I'm
a serious journalist. I mean, I like I interview people,
and I like I'm on television and I'm bean known
(27:02):
as the bread guy verus my life and so then
but so I know how you re said that you
were a kind of annoyed it. I was totally annoying,
Like everyone wants to go viral for something, right, and
you did it, and I did said that, but you're
kind of like, but no, the point was I did
it because that's just something stupid, like And then I
started going Okay, well I'm gonna start promoting who I
am and what I do with this bread thing. And
(27:24):
so I did a couple of videos since I mean
and so I know, what do you mean? How you
just the internet is so near you don't know what's.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Gooint you hit totally yeah, And it's weird kind of
like trying to wrangle in your personal brand when like
the fame aspect is getting away from you. Like I
do one Caveman cooking video a week on Tuesday or Wednesday.
That's my day. That's the only Caveman cooking video I
do for the week. Everything else is Aaron Enhall the author,
And you guys just gotta handle that. You got to
(27:53):
deal with it. But you know, I still get comments
all the time of like people being like you can
talk dog, Like I post one of those video was
a week like this is that is like less than
twenty percent of who I am on man, it's.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Fun, you can talk. That's hilarious. I know, it's no,
it's completely it's it's one of those things where it's
online is intentional. It's be intentional, yes, but it's also crapshy.
It literally is both things at once. Right, so free.
So for us as we're out there doing our own
(28:29):
thing and you're in the author, it's your best friend
on some level because you're on there, but it also
be a hindrance because you're like, will it work well
out there? Well? People see this with the gifts of ships,
you know, the whole thing. Now, as you're doing it
more and more, are you starting to lean into are
(28:49):
you starting to be more relaxed about or lean into it?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Definitely? I mean early on I had to learn to
embrace the cringe. And it's like stuff that I would
be to post about six months ago is now like, oh, yeah,
we'll just try it out and see if it works,
you know. Yeah, I started off doing this series of
uh this is when I started to like gain some momentum.
Is like when I was very first starting off posting
(29:14):
regularly as doing this series called what your favorite fantasy
author says about you, and I would just like run
through the line like, oh, if your favorite fantasy author
is Sarah J. Moss, you had a crush on Kobu
from Lion King two when you were a kid, and
like stuff like that, and people were engaging it with
a ton But like I was nervous to post those.
I'm like, oh, what if it's just lame and people
are like, this is so dumb, You're not even right, Like,
(29:36):
but no, people just had a fun time with it.
And I find solace in the fact that, like, listen,
you know your post that you're stressing so hard on
like someone, that's gonna be like one of a thousand
videos that someone's gonna see that day. Like, it's not
the end of the world if it doesn't go.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Well, no, that's a What kind of person are you
in person? In real life? Are you an outgoing? Are
you introverted? Are you an extroverted introvert? Like?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
What?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
What are you?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I'm an absolutely insufferable asshole. I'm like so difficult to
deal with. I am short tempered, and I'm just kidding,
you know. It's funny. I do come across as like
this really outgoing, you know person, and I am very personal.
I am, you know, good with conversation and stuff, but
I'm very much like an introverted homebody, you know. I
(30:26):
got I got those friends who are like, We're gonna
go to the rave this weekend. It's gonna be amazing.
There's gonna be all these lights and I'm like, my
friend Courtney describes Electric Daisy Carnival to me, and I'm like,
that sounds like hell, I doude never want to go
there in my life. Like, imagine this picture this. You
got a cup of hot coco, you got a great book,
you got a blanket, and you got jazz music playing
(30:47):
in the background. Like that is oof to me. That's
what I'm about, dude. Yeah, so help you. I'm thirty
four next week, so habby birthday. Thanks man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Thirty four, Wow, that was I mean, I'm like, I
could be your grandfather. But that's fine. I like that.
I remember thirty four was Actually I liked my thirties,
so I had a good star my thirties.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, honestly, like I feel like I'm starting to get
my crap together my thirties. You know, twenties, I was
like kind of figuring myself out still in now, thirties,
I'm like, you know what, I know me, I know
what I like, I know what I'm about. Like, I
feel better about the thirties.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
That was me. I felt like I always had. I
grew up in my thirties. It's like, yeah, my twenties
were fun. I had good time, a good time. I
was out, they do all kind of stuff. But my
thirties was like, okay, it's time. I know, I kind
of get my shit together a little bit. And I did,
and I really enjoyed it. For you, did you grow
up always want to be a writer?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You know? I hopped between like a few different things.
I knew I wanted to be in entertainment somehow, I dude,
I when I saw Star Wars at age five, I
was like, I want to make movies, you know, like
I'm going to be a director. I'm gonna da da
da da. I started off college as a film student,
you know. I was studying filmmaking. Yeah, so I speak
(32:10):
the language a little bit. I've been out about out
of the game for a long time, but like you know,
I did a bunch of stuff in front of and
behind the camera. It was fun. During my teen years,
I really, excuse me, got into music. I started teaching
myself to play guitar when I was fourteen, and started
doing drums and bass not long after. I even released
a couple of albums before my morm admission. But what's
(32:32):
funny is I learned that I loved writing stories when
I was like nine, and that has always stayed with me.
You know, the filmmaking passed and that's coming gone. The
songwriting has come and gone in waves, but like telling
stories has remained a constant love of mine. So I've
always kind of like wanted to be a director or
(32:54):
a writer or a musician. But the writer has just
always been so excited because all you need is like
a word document and you can do it, you know.
So that's what's stuck with me. That's that's what I've
wanted to do for the longest time.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, I mean, think about this way to reframe it.
Each book you are the director.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, you're the.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Director, You're the producer, you're god, you're the creator. But
you know, you know, I mean I mean that in
a way that I mean when you write it, when
you create a world, you are those You're the musician, Yeah,
you mean, you're you're all those things, but in the
form of an indie author, that's you.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That's what they are totally. But I mean, with all
that being said, like I'm a strong believer that you
need a village, you need a collaborative kind of community
to really make the best of your work, you know.
For I think my first my first book forwordained, Like
my dad was kind of my beta reader, but he
he was one perspective, he had good ideas and he
(33:55):
was really helpful. But it wasn't until my name is
Hammerfist that I had like multiple beta readers like help
me out, and that was a game changer. They helped
me like spot things in my process that I was missing.
And I know now every time that like I'll put
together like a first draft or first revision of a
book ro I'm like, this is solid. People are gonna
love it. And then I handed over to them and
(34:16):
they're like, that's fine, you got to fix this and
this and this though, and I'm like, oof, yeah, you're right,
I do need to fix those. Thanks. It's good to know.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Well, it's almost like you try, you know, just divine intervention.
You're trying, you're trying to get the idea out. It's
like first draft, so the idea is coming through you.
You're the conduit and you're getting it out and then
then you can finesse it and edit from there. I mean,
then you can go from there. But I so like
the first drafts are always to kind of I was
taught a long time ago from a mentor. He go,
(34:46):
you know, just right way for you, just get it,
let it out, just get it all out. See, you
can always structure everything. You can do everything else later.
I thought I was And for him just saying that,
I was like, that is a great idea because I
don't want to censor myself or hinder myself. In the beginning.
I wanted to get it out. I have a story
I want to say. I want to get it out.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And that's what I struggle with because as a recovering perfectionist,
it's like, no, I got to make it right the
first time. You know, I need to make sure. But
it's it's when you kind of cubby away those thoughts
and just say, hey, I'm going to allow myself to write.
Can I I can swear on this podcast?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Like, allow yourself to write your shitty first draft. You like,
give yourself that freedom, give yourself that grace because you
can fix it later. You know, you can tweak it out.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
But that's just say practical, how are you working through that?
For that perfectionist thought? How do you work through that
that that's hard for some people. It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It's a process. It's uh. I think you're remembering that
perfection is a process. You know that it's not it's
not an event. It is a process. And even then,
like perfection, the pursuit of perfection is the enemy of
great in my opinion, Like, if you're so worried about
(36:01):
like making it absolutely perfect, it'll never be done. You know,
there's always gonna be something. But learn to like see
what what you have in front of you is. Once
it reaches great, once it reaches excellent, that's that's enough.
Like that's it's ready, you know. But don't don't build
(36:21):
a cage around yourself like trying to make this work
absolutely perfect, because you're never going to get out of
that cage.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
That's true. And I just I just told you all.
I'll see. I think the words reflection and perfect out
of my vocabulary. I don't. I've tried some such thing
to me. I have friends in this business who will
talk an idea to death because they wanted to be perfect,
so to speak, and it never happens. And they'm like, James,
you're not an assembly a line. You got shit come
out all the time, Like I do. I just I
(36:47):
put it out because it's like I don't. I'm not
gonna sit there and just hold on to it because
I feel like you're the same way that you You
have something you want to say, you want to get
out there, So if you're trying to get perfect, it
will never get out there. It will just never, It'll
just never happen. I'd rather have product out there that
(37:08):
some like in some hate. Who cares. It's like, it's like,
but if I'm okay with it, then that's about the
bottom Liney.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, imagine imagine you're when it comes to like social media,
you're spending every day like making every little piece of
content perfect when you could just be like making fun
little clips that take you like five minutes and you
throw them out there. You know, like a lot of
the times, the fun little clip performs better than the
things you so hard on.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yes it does. I did a video where it was like,
you know, you're you know, your immigrant family, because all
of your containers don't contain what's inside, so like the
butter container is actually mayonnaise and the things and this
is like suns from last night, And I got so
and I just did another one of those little dumb
things and it but it did like really big. And
(37:55):
you're right, it's like the thing you're working so hard
on and we're trying to the perfect angle on the
perfect lighting and make sure the script is perfect, and
you get five views. I've had friends break down in
tears and I'm like, but they put up something, this
is done, and go why did they get like a
thousand views today? I'm like, well, I mean that's hot,
(38:16):
is you know.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
All the thing is gonna do its thing? Man? Yeah,
it's tough.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
A word. I wish i'd never heard it before. Algorithm,
that word that's haunting all of us. It's like it's haunting.
I knew he's a word my entire life until a
few years ago. I'm like, that's great. It's crazy. If
someone said, Aaron, I want to create a fantasy world
(38:46):
and write in a book, would you give them advice?
And if you did, what is one thing you would
tell them.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
That as much fun with it as possible.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
It's like you said earlier, like when you're writing a book,
you're kind of god, you know, like you get to
make something from scratch, and yeah, I mean it's fun,
but it's also a ton of work. And I feel
like if a writer, a writer is just starting off,
like arm them with the advice of just have as
much fun with it as possible, because I think if
(39:19):
you warn them about how much work, it's going to
be like chase them off.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
You know. Yes, and folks, and you just alluded to earlier.
To be a successful And when I say successful, meaning
that you can live off of your writing is not
that common.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Folks, No, it's rare. It's really rare.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I have another friend, my Todd Goldberg, who's a best
selling mystery writer. He lives off of it, but he's
looking for a million years. I mean he got to
it at first, he did live off of it. It
builds up. He's one of maybe like fourth blind know
who live off like really live off of it. The
rest they have other jobs. I think you have to
(40:01):
kind of enjoy just enjoy writing and putting it out
there because you do so, I'm assuming you must work,
you do other stuff? What else do you do?
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So I've been out of full time work for a
little over a year. You know, the market's been tough,
but I've been able to get by on I've been
able to get by on some contract work over this
last year. But yeah, I mean that being said, I
am having like the best financial year for my writing
as I've ever had. The legend of us just been
moving really well, and it's picking up, like those readers
(40:34):
have been picking up some of my previous work after
reading that. So I'm profitable for the first time ever
as an indie author, which is hard because you spend
a lot of money, like when the editors and the
covers and you know, I've been in the hole, like
you know, forever. But this year I'm profitable for my
first time, so I'm able to hire audiobook narrators to
get my old books narrated, and you know that's that's
(40:55):
going on. But yeah, I am not a full time author.
That would that'd be, but not selling anywhere near enough
books to do that right now.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Stay with musicians, say with the actors. A lot of
them do other jobs too. It's like, it's not it's
not as glamorous as if any thinks it is. It's fun. No,
I'm not shaking it and I'm saying it's not. Just
know that. So I say by his book, like run,
don't walk by his book I'm telling you buy his book.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Thanks man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
As we start to wrap up really fast, I.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Know this has been really fun. I feel like this
has gone by really quickly.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, it's not really fast. I just have to ask,
because we are in between the pages, who are some
of your authors that you admire their way of writing?
That's the question I would ask, like they admire. We
have a lot the authors we like like for the
some aere candy to us some of this, but the
(41:51):
ones that really for me growing up was Isaac Asimov.
It was Ray, brad Barry. I like the way they
like the way they write. Martian Cross, I just like
the way they turned the phrase I know, I'm right,
I'm right there with you, right there, and the other
authors I like. But these are the ones where I
look forward to. Fair and height. FO fifty one changed
(42:14):
my life. That was the book that I just always
always mentioned.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Top three for me.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, it's always and so I just saw almost for you,
and it's back now to get back to you. What
which ones do you that you admire the writing?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, well, I mean most of my favorite authors are dead,
so yeah, Bradbury, like Bradberry's I'm glad you mentioned Bradbury,
because you know, I have a very short list of
like books that I loved so much. I read them
in a single day and I couldn't put it down.
Fair Nheit four fifty one. It was one of those
I got it for I got it for Christmas one year,
and I couldn't. I spent all days reading it, like
(42:51):
It's so definitely written, and I had such a hard
time tearing myself away from it. I really admire Brady Marshallton. Yeah,
and The Martian Chronicles is just a perfect collection of
short stories, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Which I was a kid. I read it. I was
just like, I want to go to Mars, I want
to do this. I mean it just maybe it took
me into the world, and that's what and that's what
good books do.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
You right, book right, totally. But I mean, I really
love Tolkien's work. I mean, so beautifully descriptive. It's slow paced,
it's not for everybody, but I had didn't have the
maturity to enjoy it until I was in my mid
to late twenties. And then dude, I read Return of
the King and I've never read a finer piece of literature.
(43:33):
It is just so good. I read The Wizard of
Ersy from Ursula Kaylea Gwynn for the first time this year. Ah,
fantastic it is. She forces you to read slowly to
get every single word and you are rewarded for it.
It is so beautifully written and the ending just left
me breathless. But I will say my favorite living author
(43:54):
right now is probably Travis Baldry, who wrote Legends and
Lattes and Bookshops and bon Dust, the kind of the
king of cozy fantasy right now. And he is a
professional audiobook narrator. That's his main thing. He's been doing
it for years and years, and you can tell by
the way that he writes, because the way that he
(44:15):
writes it flows so nicely and it's so beautifully written.
It's like every word is chosen correctly and it just
paints a lovely picture because you can just tell he
he writes like an audiobook narrator recites, if that makes
any sense. So, yeah, he's an awesome guy. I had
(44:37):
the pleasure of meeting him at a writing conference this
August in Salt Lake City because he was in town
to like do this event, and yeah, I got to
meet him for ten minutes and just fangirl over him,
and he signed my books and we got to chat
for a little while, and just a really gracious dude,
but such a talented writer. And I don't think he
even realizes how talented he is, Like he is just
(44:58):
a tremendous Now.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
My brother and I were voracious readers my family with
three years of part in age and were clearly it
was divided. So I was a C. S. Lewis Roll
Doll fan, and he was a token and Frank L.
Baum fan. He read all those risend of Oz books
and he loved all the he loved the later books.
I get that. That's all that he liked those. So
(45:23):
we were our house was clearly we were like it
was two different sides. It's kind of funny how we
just naturally grabic mother just provide these books to us,
and we kind of went. I went. I went the
kind of semi religious rounde. I guess with C. S.
Lewis and all that, and there's all there's all this
stuff in there and Roll Dall was just such a
unique writer, unique perspective, mister Fox, James Well James and
(45:47):
Giant Peach, all that stuff. I just kind of it was.
It just attracted me. My brother loved he's all he's
all into token stuff. He was that was always his thing.
But he really loved all he like, he read all twelve.
He was like eleven in trouble To books. He loved
them until he loved them.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Well, Lewis had some bangers too. I mean, my personal opinion,
the best Narnia book was a Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
I'm just gonna say that. That's why that's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Yeah, Like, even as an adult, it is so magical
and the ending is so powerful, and I just feel like, dude,
it's a tremendous volume of fantasy literature, even if it's
intended for kids.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
You know, it's funny that a lot of them kind
of knew each other. Golding Compass stuff and C. S. Lewis,
and it's a whole thing of they're all kind of
doing their thing and are watching the other and it's
all it's just it's very it's very interesting stuff back
then and they're all gone. I whish I could have
them all on a panel of my show right now.
I touch all of them at the same time. But
(46:48):
I needed to escape so those are the books that
and adding Ray Bradberry and adding Isaac Asamov and all
them in there, and even even some early Stephen King.
Some of the early Stephen King was really good. But
then I enjoyed the Dark Tower series. I enjoyed Eyes
Were Dragon when he started going into kind of the fantasy,
so I was like, this is interesting, Like I never
thought he would go that direction, but I kind of
(47:10):
enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I was like, yeah, I don't know, like I haven't
read a lot of Stephen King. I started the Shining
and you know, horror, like it's not really my thing.
But I did read Rita Haywarth and Minshawshank Redemption terrific,
Like that's a great book. And I have a copy
of Carrie. I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm going
to see if I like it, and if not, I
don't know, donated to the library or something will.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
So my folks, I'm gonna give you, guys spoiler if
you read kood other book, The Kid Dies. It's made
me happy because in the movie I was like, he lives.
I was rooting for the dog that one. That's why
I love That's why I love books. Folks, because books
take you to another world. But I've have to leave
(47:51):
where you live now. It can be a great respite
from the world that we're in right now. We all
need that completely with you're living in Utah or here
in Los Angeles. It's a crazy time. And to me,
books still that's why I do this show. I was
doing this show for six seven years. I just, I
just I love books and uh and I said, I
(48:14):
always ended the show with I we don't believe in
banning books, and this this, this JLGBT is not behind
that whatsoever. Everyone should have choice of whatever they want
to read. And we don't believe in a raisure of
books and the rasure of aust that. We don't believe
in a and that stuff here, and we support indie authors.
Were like our big names, We like our big folks
like them. But to me, the backbone is indie and
(48:37):
books aren't going nowhere. They're making said, taking different forms,
maybe a little bit with a lot of the audio
stuff happening, but audible and all that. But physical copies
of books are still selling, folks. People are buying physical
copies fall media, but especially books. It's like they're not
they're not going anywhere, so please support them. Aaron, thanks
(48:58):
for being on my showy, so thank you for being
on the show.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Thanks for the invitation. I had a great time. Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
My pleasure. So now it's your chance. I'll put it
on this description. Of course, it's your chance to now
promote the funk out of yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Promote Go to Aaronandhall dot com. So that's Aaron another
n H A L L dot com. You'll find all
my books there, you'll find where you can connect with
me on social media. Yeah, thanks for thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, go there and and seriously go to his Instagram.
You're gonna like his caveman cooking. I mean is it's
a lot of fun and food looks good and he's
a nice stuff. I'm James L. Jr. I am everywhere.
I'm everywhere, James lt Jr. All over the place. Put
you had pages on Facebook, So check us out there
(49:51):
and just again, check out book support in the author.
Support the arts the arts are very important times like this,
There is some great work out there you may not
know about, so go check it out. You go to
a bookstore or going out just like peruse a round
look at covers read back. Some covers check out stuff
and just don't go for the norm that you always
go for, and check something else out and we'll see
(50:12):
you next time.
I don't even know, folks, how this person even came
into my space, but you know how Instagram is, it'd
be suggesting people. And because I'm an author myself, because
I follow authors, because I follow crazy people, because I
follow whoever people who are bald, I don't know. All
of a sudden this person was in my system. And
(00:28):
it's because of his caveman cooking. If you don't want
to talk about, folks, you need to go follow him.
After you watch this interview, go we'll tell you where
you can find them. It is like the most genius
thing on earth. I'm telling you it's crazy. But also
he's an author, folks. And because he finds inventive ways
to push this book out there, I bought it people
(00:51):
with my own money, and I went to his site,
which will tell you how to get there, and it
has this signature it does it's in there. I hain't
got a special copy of Support because I support writers,
Indie ryers, I support the arts, as you guys know.
And this guest it's sposed called the legend of of
If you're watching me, there it is. If you're listening
(01:14):
there it is. And I'm so happy to have him
on a just a huge fan of his. Aaron and Hall.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hey Aeron, thanks man Hey, thanks for that intro. It's
a it's a pleasure to be here still to chat.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yes, very good, thank you for doing this. Actually, there's
one thing I'm gonna read really quick from your book,
okay that I related to. He took his plate and
vaulted over the table with the grace of a dancer.
DJ watched as commoners gathered around Sir Dashing to hear
(01:48):
another tale of slanging monsters or rescuing maidens. DJ drummed
his fingers on his new sword while he waited for
a barmaid to serve him a plate. As he studied
the blade, he realized that along the crossguard that his
name was engraved, but Sir Dashing was finally etched and
(02:11):
Junior was crudely engraved, as if someone forgot to add
Junior until it was too late. He scowled and put
it away. Why I read that I'm a junior. As
anybody knows, I'm James Lott Junior. This book reminded me
and my father be and my father when we were
(02:32):
in the same profession years ago, and how I had
to live up to that, but secondly, my name is
James Lott Junior. It's not James Lot. It's not James Lott.
And then maybe later Junior that for some reason, I
was like, yes, I know exactly how that feels. And
that's the been getting a book, Cloks. I just want
to tell you thanks for making it, thanks for thinking
(02:54):
it for us juniors out there.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, it's for all the juniors out there. Man.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I know it's not why you wrote it, but I
think it's a it's just funny. When I was reading
your book, it was like that stuck with me because
it's one of those things where if you have a
suffix after your name, a lot of times people don't
always take that as seriously as we do. Especially and
my father goes by James on Senior and I go
by James on Junior. That's what we do.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
That awesome, It's very cool.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
But you named them so you had Sir Dashing and
Dashing Junior, which I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, congratulations on the book.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Thank you, thank you. I'm really happy with how it
turned out, and I feel like the indie fantasy community
has really just embraced it and it's got some momentum
and uh yeah, the people just love the characters, they
love the adventure, and it's just it's resonating with people.
So I'm super grateful.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
What other book is this for you?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh, Legend of uh was my eighth book?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Has it? Well, I'm not that's a dumb quiet. I'm
going to ask that question. The question I'm going to
ask is as you go into each book, you finish
a book or maybe I don't, Maybe you're making a
processes you do sell books at once. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I do know.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, we can ask that in a second. But as
you get to your sixth, seventh, eighth books, do you
have a formula or is it still fresh every time?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I mean, in terms of how I go about producing
the book, I've caught kind of my formula. Like I'm
an outliner. I like to outline, so you know, I'll
let it an idea, percolate, marinate, just kind of like
you toul it in my head for a while, then
make an outline for the entire book, where it's like
one bullet per chapter of how I think things will
go go, be like how things will go. Then the
(04:38):
first draft, you know, that's one of the toughest parts.
For me, it's just creative constipation, just forcing it out,
trying to get it on the page. I know, I'm sorry,
but I love it.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, you get that first draft done, do a first revision,
handed to some beta readers, get their thoughts, then get
their feedback, do a couple more revisions, send it onto
the editor, get their feedback, and then a finished book.
So that's kind of my process in a nutshell. But
I mean, so many of my books feel so different
that I don't know, like it's it's even even though
(05:10):
you feel like you have the same map and for
every book, like the journey has still been different every
time in just small ways.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I guess you should be clear. You know you have,
you've you've written about different things. I should make that clear.
You have your books are not all I didn't like.
I didn't mean the formal, im formal in terms of
going into you answered it correctly. I'm just saying, yeah,
he has, he has different kinds of books. But is
but actually is there a through line between your and
your writing?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
A through line? You mean, like, is there like common
themes and stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Or are just like is there? You look you look
at your eight books. The main they could be all
toty different different stories or are but is there something
that either connects them, not like like literally connects, but
it's something that you're like all my books they're all
about romance, finding themselves, finding themselves or is there is
there any kind of like themes that.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Are Yeah, I definitely feel like there are some themes
in that are consistent through many of my books. Are
Like the main character who's a little unsure of themselves.
I think that's reflective of me and kind of like,
you know, for a lot of my life having to
feel like I had to prove my worth to those
around me. So you definitely get like the main characters
(06:24):
who feel like, you know, they're a little unsure of themselves,
I feel like they have to prove themselves. I also
love being critical of government and big corporations. You'll find
big time themes of that in all of my work.
But yeah, and I mean in The Wevelean Chronicles, my
first my epic fantasy trilogy, it's it's got pretty big
(06:47):
Christian themes because I was very religious at the time
that I was writing it. But I tried to write
it in a way that was like approachable for people
who weren't like religious. But there is stuff like that.
But I would say, like the biggest consistent themes you
find throughout all my work are kind of like the
reluctant hero trope and then being critical of just like
(07:08):
people who are in power. You know, That's that's what
I really like to do. And you'll get a lot
of that in the second legend of uh, you'll see.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Okay, well here's what's crazy too. I didn't lize it
was a comedy.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
So you went in thinking it was like a serious fantasy. Yea, man,
what was that? What was that awakening like of realizing, oh,
this is funny.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's that's a great question. You should be a host,
that's my question. So going in what taught me? Number One?
You should just go in and just a book by
its cover or whatever, like literally you should. You should,
especially if you don't know about it much about it.
I assumed I thought I kN about so I started reading.
I was laughing. And also, your book is so related
(07:56):
this this book is so relatable. I can regular times
because you're writing it in a certain time period of
fantasy land. Yet a lot of the dialogue it's relatable.
Riley makes me laugh a lot in the book, and
she's just like this tomboy who you know, she had
(08:17):
all these brothers. I was then, but he kind of
likes her and like it's like but the way he
she's teasing him, I was like, I could see this
book like a sitcom of sorts, but set and set
in this time, Like I could see this world coming together.
So it was it was almost like it was it
(08:38):
was relevatory in this a weird way that I just didn't.
I was like, oh, there's like there's jokes in it,
and this is this is one. Okay, speaking of that,
here's just one part too, the maybe a dog ear
jerk book and stuff. Where are these goblins? It's just
like this is the middle of book. The goblins at
They're great. At the mention of it, the leading goblin
(09:01):
raised his hands in the crowd fell silent. Indeed you did,
he said, King grig Knak and all of his cruelty,
mousee and barbarism is no more. More. Cheers feel the forest.
DJ couldn't clear the confusion from his face. He said
he was going to kill you. It put you to stude.
Didn't heed the goblin said, look, we don't even like
eating people. It's disgusting. It just made me laugh. I
(09:22):
was just real, and it just goes on and on,
like you don't hear goblins talk like that in books,
you know, And it's like tall trope of life he talked,
and you actually say, like there's this whole thing he
needs to think. We all do this. It's like, it's
that's what that was. So each each chapters relatory for him,
because I was just like, this is really funny, but
it's actually.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That it's it's interesting. It's uh. I In comedy, there's
like this thing called the benign violation theory that like,
you know, like if something is funny, it's because it
violates an expectation in a way that's relatively harmless. So
I was doing this without realizing what benign violation theory was.
But I figured it would be funny to write a
(10:05):
fantasy world as if with a lot of really like
subtle jokes, like you know, the main character DJ and Riley,
I mean they talk like American high school kids, you know,
and they're just in this fantasy world. Yeah, and these
goblins are also you know, they love riddles. But they're
terrible at them, so you know, and even with the goblins,
(10:29):
you know, saying, oh, like he said he was gonna
throw you in a stew and you know, we're gonna
eat you right like we don't even like eating people.
It reinforces harmful stereotypes. And for a goblin to say
something like that, it's just funny because you wouldn't hear
that in another like D and D high fantasy world.
So it's a lot of stuff like that that, if
you like, came together nicely.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And also though, but I don't want I don't want
to diminish you're quite the wordsmith. I mean, you do
use some great words in this in this story because
you're writing it from it puts a map in it
to you, guys, as a map of the world, so
you can see what's going on. Let's not get in there.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
It might be hard. They're gonna put it against the
background there you go.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, so there's a world, so and so I'm in
the world. I mean it, and you use some really,
I mean you just there's some there's some really great
writing folks in here. So it's not just it's not
pedestrian just like just silly stuff. It's silly in the
premises that you put that you put in the Predicamentcy's
(11:33):
in because there's an action adventure story, folks, But it
is that on purpose.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
No, totally. I mean the kind of comedy that I
enjoy writing is like the straight character, like the the everyman,
the the relatable person who gets put in silly, ridiculous
circumstances surrounded by silly and ridiculous people. I think that's fun. Yeah,
And I feel like it just really works for the
legend of us, like there is an enough seriousness to
(12:01):
ground you in this is a fantasy world, Like there's magic,
there's swords, there's stakes, there's occasional danger, but it just
kind of lovingly makes fun of the fantasy genre in
just a very affectionate way, and it just comes together
really nicely. Dashing, Yeah, exactly, Like I mean, Sir Dashing,
(12:21):
who do you a picture? You picture this gallant knight,
you know, who just can do no wrong. I was
kind of imagining like Prince Charming from Shrek to and
like the Prince from Enchanted. He's like kind of an
amalgamation of those two guys. But Sir Dashing is actually
a really good dude. He's not like a villain, you know, sir. Yeah,
And I think people kind of expect that when they
(12:41):
read the book and they're like, oh, I'm gonna yeah,
But by the end you're like, dude, Sir, Dashing's my guy.
He's awesome, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
As a junior that you know, the way you said
the book. At first, I'm thinking, oh god, he has
to fight his dad's image. He's so well liked this
whole thing. He only got this is nighty because they
try to get into it's all this stuff going on,
but you're right. You find out, oh, he's kind of
senior is kind of funny, and senior is like he's
full of it sometimes Okay, sure, why not? You know.
(13:11):
And then there's there's there's some parts of where you
have junior writing to his dad while he's wi his
adventures the signs Sciences love you, and I'm like, that's
interesting too. So there's heart. I thought I'm playing so folks,
there is heart in this too, but it's kind of like,
no again, that was another revelation. I thought, we're totally adversarial,
(13:31):
the usual I gotta be better than my dad kind
of story. Get off from under him, but he was
trying to get out from under him, but not like
to get back at him.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
No, totally. And something that I hear from a lot
of other readers as they are expecting, like Sir Dashing's
exploits to be kind of this like Gildroyd Lockhart Harry
Potter thing where you find out, oh no, he's made
up all these adventures. He hasn't done any of this stuff.
And it's like, no, he's the real deal, Like he's done,
he's done it all, and he loves him himself. You know,
he's a little like in his own business a lot
(14:03):
of the time, but when it comes down to it,
he is a really earnest dad and a good guy
when especially when it counts. So I don't know, he
was just really fun character to write that way. I
just I wanted to make sure he was flawed but endearing.
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I think you did that. It's in there because I
want a lot of people to read the book. But
I think you've done I think you've done that. Actually,
thank you, because I so when you're writing, is this
coming between the pages with James are here? So when
you are writing, you said you have an outline, but
do you allow yourself to really get fully immersed? Are
you that kind of lovely? Yeah? Then yeah, But he's
(14:39):
a question what if someone something I'm sure characters take
lives of their own. What if something really changes for
you as you're writing, do you go with him?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean I'm an outline writer
for the most part, but I definitely give myself the
freedom to take the story a different direction if it
feels better for the story, you know, because ultimately, I'm
just trying to write a really good, memorable story. And sometimes,
like the steps that I come up with in the
(15:10):
outlining phase just don't cut it. When the rubber hits
the road, you know, you have to be willing to adjust.
And I think after you know, writing and publishing eight books,
I've learned how to kill my darlings a little bit better,
especially than what I was doing at the beginning of
my career. So yeah, like I definitely leave wiggle room
for that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
It's a good question for you. When have you looked
back at your first couple of books, and so, what
are a couple of things that you see that you
got cheese and crackers? Because I can look at my
first interviews, I'm like, oh God, why did I say
that word ten times?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Listen. I mean, I try to give myself some grace
because my first book that I wrote is fore Ordained.
It's the first book in the Wevelyan Chronicles, that Christian
epic fantasy trilogy I was talking about earlier. It's about
a boy who is called by a dragon god to
be the next king of a kingdom that's fallen apart
under the rule of a tyrant. And this first book
in the trilogy follows his kind of reluctant ascension to
(16:10):
the throne as he's being tested by this current evil
king who will stop at nothing to maintain his power.
And you know, being fifteen years old from a small
town in Utah, you know, looking back, I just feel
like it was a very juvenile representation of authoritarianism in
that book that I could have done a lot better on.
(16:31):
But I just didn't know. I was fifteen when I
was writing it, so I was just I was pretty
pretty naive and ignorant. And I feel like the female
representation isn't very good either. It's like the two women
in the book that you get to know are like
the main character's mom and his love interest, and the
book like barely passes the Bechel tests but not in
like a meaningful way. Yeah, so I don't know. It's
(16:57):
and also the pros. You know, you get better you
as you grow older and you read books that are
beautifully written like Lord of the Rings and Wizard of
Earth see and stuff like that. It's like ooh, you
get inspired, and it's like, oh, I can make pretty
your pros. It's still easier to read, but really, like,
what's my reader there in the story. But yeah, all
(17:18):
that to say, people still love Forordained, Like I still
see five star reviews on that book, and in my heart,
I'm like, really, you guys liked that much. But you know,
it's it's you learn and your grow and you develop,
and uh that's just how it is.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, and I love that. I it's you have to
have brace for yourself. Just go, okay, that's what you'll
be what you know so and then you're writing will
keep going as you know more and as you take
taken more. Just for your title, you.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Name this area, Uh yeah that's a joke in and
of itself, because you know, like so many fantasy worlds
will have like a weird name. What if it's just
a but if it's just uh you know and uh,
I thought that was funny. So I said, you know what,
and that makes a great title to imagine, just like
the word big red letters, that'll make someone stop at
(18:10):
a Barnes and Noble and look at it does.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And for me, I want to go to the Nether Regions.
I also like to have also go to the Cradle.
Where do I want to go? I love it. I
just think it's so it's just very cool. But you know,
I do like the world. I like the name west Fall.
That's a great thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Like I want I wanted some parts to you. I
wanted some Yeah, I wanted some parts to feel very fantasy,
feel very high fantasy adventuresque, but also like there's the
Nether Regions. You know, why not?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I love it?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I do?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I love it. Before you release a book, do you
do you get nervous?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Uh? You know at this point, I'm gonna be honest,
not really. You know. It's it's kind of like when
I'm getting ready for release, I'm more so I'm thinking about, Okay,
how am I promoting this? Am I reaching out to
the right people. Am I doing enough to kind of
like make sure this launch is successful? That's what I
worry about. It's like, you know, am I launching this
with enough momentum that people are going to keep reading
(19:14):
it and with the legend of uh I handled it
really well for an indie author, if you know, if
I can toot my own horn. I put together this
spreadsheet of like four hundred authors and influencers, bloggers, critics,
and I contacted them one by one, you know, and
was like, Hey, you based on serial other books, I
think you really like this one. Can I send you
a free copy just for a review when it comes out?
(19:37):
And surprisingly a lot of them were like, yeah, send
it my way. So the book released with like fifty
early reviews on Goodreads. I think it was like forty
six by release date, which yeah. I have a friend
who's like a New York Times bestselling middle grade author,
Like she's you know, been on the New York Times
bestsellerst over and over again, and she said, Aaron, you
nailed it. Like, if you can have fifty reviews by
(19:59):
your release state, that book's got it's got legs, it's
got momentum, Like you're gonna be okay. And She's right,
you know, it's I think it's sing at like one
hundred and seventy six reviews now on Goodreads for an
indie title. That's pretty hard to hit. But yeah, it's
just it's got the momentum from its release. So that's
what I'm worried about. Like, as I'm getting ready for
(20:20):
is like, am I have I promoted this sufficiently?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
What people are starting to realize is you can have
a hit and not be a list quotes or B list. Yeah,
you can have a hit. There's there's there's an audience
for everything. And I'm like you, it's how do I
get to them now correctly, to the right people. How
(20:45):
do I get to show to the right like it
says I went to you with some of that. It's like,
how do I get this book into the right hand
so it looks like something like this.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
You know, no totally And that's the struggle. Yeah, it
is finding those people where they live and you know,
getting your book in front of them. It's tough.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Well, I know for you, like I said, I don't
know where you came from motion you talk, but I
know where you came from. It in my life, but
suddenly you were on it. And because what you give
with this book you from some of your other books too,
you still, but this one was almost ubiquitous for me
because you would do a reel or a post or whatever,
(21:23):
and you're like, I'm talking about Caveman cooking, and while
we're waiting, here's my book you were. I thought it
was very genius. I mean, I mean, I'm like being serious.
I thought it was very genius because I always I've
taught classes on this. It's all about consistency and just
getting people to see something over and over again, and
something it's in their brain and it's like I must
(21:46):
get booked. Like all of a sudden, you just like
I just I don't know why you get about you
to get it. And it's like, I think what you
were doing on social media was interesting because again there
are eight billion people on social media too. We're all hawking,
our weares on there, we're all trying to put something
so for you, especially when it came to this book,
was that a conscious day? Okay, Okay, now I've contacted
(22:07):
these people. He's influenced, but now I got it. Every day?
Is it like, is it like that for you while
you're writing a book, like every day, I gotta do
something with it.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, I mean I for a long time, I wasn't
taking social media very seriously.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I was posting occasionally whenever I felt like I had
something to post about. But it was at story Con
this year. It's a writing conference every year in Salt
Lake City and they usually get like big authors to come.
But my friend Zsdamanti, who's also like a really well
known indie fantasy author. He's doing it full time. He's
making a full time living as an indie fantasy author,
(22:44):
living the dream. And he was staying with me during
the convention, you know, because he's from out of state.
And I said, dude, don't buy a hotel. You got
my guest room, Like, just come hang out for free.
And during that time I picked his brain. Man. I
was like, how do you make it work? Like, how
do you make this work? And he said, dude, you
gotta be posting on social media often. You know, you
(23:05):
got to be posting content. You gotta be pointing people
towards your book. That's how I get people like in
the start of my funnel looking at my work. That's
what you gotta do. And I was like, damn it,
you're right. So I made it. I made it. I
made a plan. From that point on, I'm like, Okay,
I'm going to post five reels a week, and they
got to follow three rules. You know. One it's got
(23:26):
to be entertaining somehow. Two it's got to put point
to my books somehow. And three I just can't be
an asshole, you know. So everything I was making, like
ever since the end of February has followed those three rules. Yeah.
And there's been a few slip ups where I like,
I forget to plug my book and instead just like,
you know, give a silly thought or whatever. But the
(23:46):
Caveman cooking stuff was just a happy accident, Like.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I think it's genius. Please talk about that.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Thanks. You know, I was just goofing around. I was
goofing around in my kitchen. I follow this dude. He
calls himself Brokie Budget Meals or he will like, do
you follow his account?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I follow a guy who goes to like Dollar Tree
and stuff and does these cooking things for dinner for
ten dollars, dinner for five and six. I was the
same din I was the same guy now, but it's
the guy he has a bead.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
It might be oh yeah, I don't think I don't
think this guy's got a beard, but like, no, he
had BROKEI budget meals as wild dude. He's his energy
is off the charts, but he'll he'll go to like
AGB or Walmart and like spend seven dollars. And so
I made my own video, like making one of his
recipes where I just walked people through it, just kind
of mumbling and pointing and yeah and like doing a
(24:41):
little filmbs up yeah after every like construction. And I
posted it and it got like ten thousand views, and
I was like, ah, should I do another one? Let's
see how this goes. So I did another one and
it got like one hundred thousand views, and people were
starting to follow me and being like this is awesome.
More of this and I'm not to lie. At first,
I was annoyed. I'm like the author, like, this is
(25:04):
not why I'm here. I'm here to promote my books.
And then now you guys just want to watch me
do cooking. You know what, I'm gonna take this and
I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna put them together.
So if you're gonna watch this cooking video. You're gonna
get a book promo, whether you like it or not.
Like that's that's gonna be. Yeah, that's the deal here,
and it's working. Ever since I started doing that, I've
(25:25):
been selling more books, so I've kind of just learned
to embrace it. It was a happy accident that I
just kind of like commandeered into my own personal promotional
like endeavors. It's worked. It's working.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I know it's so. And I don't know if you've
seen it or not, but I have a viral video
out there and it's a thirteen second video I did
four years ago, and it was dumb on purpose. It
was a dumb video on purpose. It was literally one
of those things where it was like people, do you
(25:59):
dumb shit all the time, going to say something that
makes no sense and see what happens. And now I'm
defined by it and I just try to feel So.
I have a video where I'm standing in front of
my refrigerator. I go, you know you're black when you
have bread refrigerator, and that's it.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
That's a video.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
It's a video. That's why. It's all I said. And
I show a bread refigerator. I tell you, like, thirteen
seconds I do this and I'll harverse my deep voice.
I'm like, oh my god, you sound like you know
the grass ties and all. You sound like you get that.
So I put it out and it went viral, and
it's one of those things where I sat getting followed.
I would like this TikTok. But anyway, so people start
(26:39):
stitching it. I keep bringing I saw almost to be black.
So it's this whole thing. So it's been going it's
like a one hundred million views. It's been going on
for four years. I've gotten that's awesome. But here's the thing.
At first, I was angry, and I'm like, but I'm
a serious journalist. I mean, I like I interview people,
and I like I'm on television and I'm bean known
(27:02):
as the bread guy verus my life and so then
but so I know how you re said that you
were a kind of annoyed it. I was totally annoying,
Like everyone wants to go viral for something, right, and
you did it, and I did said that, but you're
kind of like, but no, the point was I did
it because that's just something stupid, like And then I
started going Okay, well I'm gonna start promoting who I
am and what I do with this bread thing. And
(27:24):
so I did a couple of videos since I mean
and so I know, what do you mean? How you
just the internet is so near you don't know what's.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Gooint you hit totally yeah, And it's weird kind of
like trying to wrangle in your personal brand when like
the fame aspect is getting away from you. Like I
do one Caveman cooking video a week on Tuesday or Wednesday.
That's my day. That's the only Caveman cooking video I
do for the week. Everything else is Aaron Enhall the author,
And you guys just gotta handle that. You got to
(27:53):
deal with it. But you know, I still get comments
all the time of like people being like you can
talk dog, Like I post one of those video was
a week like this is that is like less than
twenty percent of who I am on man, it's.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Fun, you can talk. That's hilarious. I know, it's no,
it's completely it's it's one of those things where it's
online is intentional. It's be intentional, yes, but it's also crapshy.
It literally is both things at once. Right, so free.
So for us as we're out there doing our own
(28:29):
thing and you're in the author, it's your best friend
on some level because you're on there, but it also
be a hindrance because you're like, will it work well
out there? Well? People see this with the gifts of ships,
you know, the whole thing. Now, as you're doing it
more and more, are you starting to lean into are
(28:49):
you starting to be more relaxed about or lean into it?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Definitely? I mean early on I had to learn to
embrace the cringe. And it's like stuff that I would
be to post about six months ago is now like, oh, yeah,
we'll just try it out and see if it works,
you know. Yeah, I started off doing this series of
uh this is when I started to like gain some momentum.
Is like when I was very first starting off posting
(29:14):
regularly as doing this series called what your favorite fantasy
author says about you, and I would just like run
through the line like, oh, if your favorite fantasy author
is Sarah J. Moss, you had a crush on Kobu
from Lion King two when you were a kid, and
like stuff like that, and people were engaging it with
a ton But like I was nervous to post those.
I'm like, oh, what if it's just lame and people
are like, this is so dumb, You're not even right, Like,
(29:36):
but no, people just had a fun time with it.
And I find solace in the fact that, like, listen,
you know your post that you're stressing so hard on
like someone, that's gonna be like one of a thousand
videos that someone's gonna see that day. Like, it's not
the end of the world if it doesn't go.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Well, no, that's a What kind of person are you
in person? In real life? Are you an outgoing? Are
you introverted? Are you an extroverted introvert? Like?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
What?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
What are you?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I'm an absolutely insufferable asshole. I'm like so difficult to
deal with. I am short tempered, and I'm just kidding,
you know. It's funny. I do come across as like
this really outgoing, you know person, and I am very personal.
I am, you know, good with conversation and stuff, but
I'm very much like an introverted homebody, you know. I
(30:26):
got I got those friends who are like, We're gonna
go to the rave this weekend. It's gonna be amazing.
There's gonna be all these lights and I'm like, my
friend Courtney describes Electric Daisy Carnival to me, and I'm like,
that sounds like hell, I doude never want to go
there in my life. Like, imagine this picture this. You
got a cup of hot coco, you got a great book,
you got a blanket, and you got jazz music playing
(30:47):
in the background. Like that is oof to me. That's
what I'm about, dude. Yeah, so help you. I'm thirty
four next week, so habby birthday. Thanks man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Thirty four, Wow, that was I mean, I'm like, I
could be your grandfather. But that's fine. I like that.
I remember thirty four was Actually I liked my thirties,
so I had a good star my thirties.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, honestly, like I feel like I'm starting to get
my crap together my thirties. You know, twenties, I was
like kind of figuring myself out still in now, thirties,
I'm like, you know what, I know me, I know
what I like, I know what I'm about. Like, I
feel better about the thirties.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
That was me. I felt like I always had. I
grew up in my thirties. It's like, yeah, my twenties
were fun. I had good time, a good time. I
was out, they do all kind of stuff. But my
thirties was like, okay, it's time. I know, I kind
of get my shit together a little bit. And I did,
and I really enjoyed it. For you, did you grow
up always want to be a writer?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You know? I hopped between like a few different things.
I knew I wanted to be in entertainment somehow, I dude,
I when I saw Star Wars at age five, I
was like, I want to make movies, you know, like
I'm going to be a director. I'm gonna da da
da da. I started off college as a film student,
you know. I was studying filmmaking. Yeah, so I speak
(32:10):
the language a little bit. I've been out about out
of the game for a long time, but like you know,
I did a bunch of stuff in front of and
behind the camera. It was fun. During my teen years,
I really, excuse me, got into music. I started teaching
myself to play guitar when I was fourteen, and started
doing drums and bass not long after. I even released
a couple of albums before my morm admission. But what's
(32:32):
funny is I learned that I loved writing stories when
I was like nine, and that has always stayed with me.
You know, the filmmaking passed and that's coming gone. The
songwriting has come and gone in waves, but like telling
stories has remained a constant love of mine. So I've
always kind of like wanted to be a director or
(32:54):
a writer or a musician. But the writer has just
always been so excited because all you need is like
a word document and you can do it, you know.
So that's what's stuck with me. That's that's what I've
wanted to do for the longest time.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, I mean, think about this way to reframe it.
Each book you are the director.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, you're the.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Director, You're the producer, you're god, you're the creator. But
you know, you know, I mean I mean that in
a way that I mean when you write it, when
you create a world, you are those You're the musician, Yeah,
you mean, you're you're all those things, but in the
form of an indie author, that's you.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That's what they are totally. But I mean, with all
that being said, like I'm a strong believer that you
need a village, you need a collaborative kind of community
to really make the best of your work, you know.
For I think my first my first book forwordained, Like
my dad was kind of my beta reader, but he
he was one perspective, he had good ideas and he
(33:55):
was really helpful. But it wasn't until my name is
Hammerfist that I had like multiple beta readers like help
me out, and that was a game changer. They helped
me like spot things in my process that I was missing.
And I know now every time that like I'll put
together like a first draft or first revision of a
book ro I'm like, this is solid. People are gonna
love it. And then I handed over to them and
(34:16):
they're like, that's fine, you got to fix this and
this and this though, and I'm like, oof, yeah, you're right,
I do need to fix those. Thanks. It's good to know.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Well, it's almost like you try, you know, just divine intervention.
You're trying, you're trying to get the idea out. It's
like first draft, so the idea is coming through you.
You're the conduit and you're getting it out and then
then you can finesse it and edit from there. I mean,
then you can go from there. But I so like
the first drafts are always to kind of I was
taught a long time ago from a mentor. He go,
(34:46):
you know, just right way for you, just get it,
let it out, just get it all out. See, you
can always structure everything. You can do everything else later.
I thought I was And for him just saying that,
I was like, that is a great idea because I
don't want to censor myself or hinder myself. In the beginning.
I wanted to get it out. I have a story
I want to say. I want to get it out.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And that's what I struggle with because as a recovering perfectionist,
it's like, no, I got to make it right the
first time. You know, I need to make sure. But
it's it's when you kind of cubby away those thoughts
and just say, hey, I'm going to allow myself to write.
Can I I can swear on this podcast?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Like, allow yourself to write your shitty first draft. You like,
give yourself that freedom, give yourself that grace because you
can fix it later. You know, you can tweak it out.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
But that's just say practical, how are you working through that?
For that perfectionist thought? How do you work through that
that that's hard for some people. It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It's a process. It's uh. I think you're remembering that
perfection is a process. You know that it's not it's
not an event. It is a process. And even then,
like perfection, the pursuit of perfection is the enemy of
great in my opinion, Like, if you're so worried about
(36:01):
like making it absolutely perfect, it'll never be done. You know,
there's always gonna be something. But learn to like see
what what you have in front of you is. Once
it reaches great, once it reaches excellent, that's that's enough.
Like that's it's ready, you know. But don't don't build
(36:21):
a cage around yourself like trying to make this work
absolutely perfect, because you're never going to get out of
that cage.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
That's true. And I just I just told you all.
I'll see. I think the words reflection and perfect out
of my vocabulary. I don't. I've tried some such thing
to me. I have friends in this business who will
talk an idea to death because they wanted to be perfect,
so to speak, and it never happens. And they'm like, James,
you're not an assembly a line. You got shit come
out all the time, Like I do. I just I
(36:47):
put it out because it's like I don't. I'm not
gonna sit there and just hold on to it because
I feel like you're the same way that you You
have something you want to say, you want to get
out there, So if you're trying to get perfect, it
will never get out there. It will just never, It'll
just never happen. I'd rather have product out there that
(37:08):
some like in some hate. Who cares. It's like, it's like,
but if I'm okay with it, then that's about the
bottom Liney.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, imagine imagine you're when it comes to like social media,
you're spending every day like making every little piece of
content perfect when you could just be like making fun
little clips that take you like five minutes and you
throw them out there. You know, like a lot of
the times, the fun little clip performs better than the
things you so hard on.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yes it does. I did a video where it was like,
you know, you're you know, your immigrant family, because all
of your containers don't contain what's inside, so like the
butter container is actually mayonnaise and the things and this
is like suns from last night, And I got so
and I just did another one of those little dumb
things and it but it did like really big. And
(37:55):
you're right, it's like the thing you're working so hard
on and we're trying to the perfect angle on the
perfect lighting and make sure the script is perfect, and
you get five views. I've had friends break down in
tears and I'm like, but they put up something, this
is done, and go why did they get like a
thousand views today? I'm like, well, I mean that's hot,
(38:16):
is you know.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
All the thing is gonna do its thing? Man? Yeah,
it's tough.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
A word. I wish i'd never heard it before. Algorithm,
that word that's haunting all of us. It's like it's haunting.
I knew he's a word my entire life until a
few years ago. I'm like, that's great. It's crazy. If
someone said, Aaron, I want to create a fantasy world
(38:46):
and write in a book, would you give them advice?
And if you did, what is one thing you would
tell them.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
That as much fun with it as possible.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
It's like you said earlier, like when you're writing a book,
you're kind of god, you know, like you get to
make something from scratch, and yeah, I mean it's fun,
but it's also a ton of work. And I feel
like if a writer, a writer is just starting off,
like arm them with the advice of just have as
much fun with it as possible, because I think if
(39:19):
you warn them about how much work, it's going to
be like chase them off.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
You know. Yes, and folks, and you just alluded to earlier.
To be a successful And when I say successful, meaning
that you can live off of your writing is not
that common.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Folks, No, it's rare. It's really rare.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I have another friend, my Todd Goldberg, who's a best
selling mystery writer. He lives off of it, but he's
looking for a million years. I mean he got to
it at first, he did live off of it. It
builds up. He's one of maybe like fourth blind know
who live off like really live off of it. The
rest they have other jobs. I think you have to
(40:01):
kind of enjoy just enjoy writing and putting it out
there because you do so, I'm assuming you must work,
you do other stuff? What else do you do?
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So I've been out of full time work for a
little over a year. You know, the market's been tough,
but I've been able to get by on I've been
able to get by on some contract work over this
last year. But yeah, I mean that being said, I
am having like the best financial year for my writing
as I've ever had. The legend of us just been
moving really well, and it's picking up, like those readers
(40:34):
have been picking up some of my previous work after
reading that. So I'm profitable for the first time ever
as an indie author, which is hard because you spend
a lot of money, like when the editors and the
covers and you know, I've been in the hole, like
you know, forever. But this year I'm profitable for my
first time, so I'm able to hire audiobook narrators to
get my old books narrated, and you know that's that's
(40:55):
going on. But yeah, I am not a full time author.
That would that'd be, but not selling anywhere near enough
books to do that right now.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Stay with musicians, say with the actors. A lot of
them do other jobs too. It's like, it's not it's
not as glamorous as if any thinks it is. It's fun. No,
I'm not shaking it and I'm saying it's not. Just
know that. So I say by his book, like run,
don't walk by his book I'm telling you buy his book.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Thanks man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
As we start to wrap up really fast, I.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Know this has been really fun. I feel like this
has gone by really quickly.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, it's not really fast. I just have to ask,
because we are in between the pages, who are some
of your authors that you admire their way of writing?
That's the question I would ask, like they admire. We
have a lot the authors we like like for the
some aere candy to us some of this, but the
(41:51):
ones that really for me growing up was Isaac Asimov.
It was Ray, brad Barry. I like the way they
like the way they write. Martian Cross, I just like
the way they turned the phrase I know, I'm right,
I'm right there with you, right there, and the other
authors I like. But these are the ones where I
look forward to. Fair and height. FO fifty one changed
(42:14):
my life. That was the book that I just always
always mentioned.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Top three for me.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, it's always and so I just saw almost for you,
and it's back now to get back to you. What
which ones do you that you admire the writing?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, well, I mean most of my favorite authors are dead,
so yeah, Bradbury, like Bradberry's I'm glad you mentioned Bradbury,
because you know, I have a very short list of
like books that I loved so much. I read them
in a single day and I couldn't put it down.
Fair Nheit four fifty one. It was one of those
I got it for I got it for Christmas one year,
and I couldn't. I spent all days reading it, like
(42:51):
It's so definitely written, and I had such a hard
time tearing myself away from it. I really admire Brady Marshallton. Yeah,
and The Martian Chronicles is just a perfect collection of
short stories, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Which I was a kid. I read it. I was
just like, I want to go to Mars, I want
to do this. I mean it just maybe it took
me into the world, and that's what and that's what
good books do.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
You right, book right, totally. But I mean, I really
love Tolkien's work. I mean, so beautifully descriptive. It's slow paced,
it's not for everybody, but I had didn't have the
maturity to enjoy it until I was in my mid
to late twenties. And then dude, I read Return of
the King and I've never read a finer piece of literature.
(43:33):
It is just so good. I read The Wizard of
Ersy from Ursula Kaylea Gwynn for the first time this year. Ah,
fantastic it is. She forces you to read slowly to
get every single word and you are rewarded for it.
It is so beautifully written and the ending just left
me breathless. But I will say my favorite living author
(43:54):
right now is probably Travis Baldry, who wrote Legends and
Lattes and Bookshops and bon Dust, the kind of the
king of cozy fantasy right now. And he is a
professional audiobook narrator. That's his main thing. He's been doing
it for years and years, and you can tell by
the way that he writes, because the way that he
(44:15):
writes it flows so nicely and it's so beautifully written.
It's like every word is chosen correctly and it just
paints a lovely picture because you can just tell he
he writes like an audiobook narrator recites, if that makes
any sense. So, yeah, he's an awesome guy. I had
(44:37):
the pleasure of meeting him at a writing conference this
August in Salt Lake City because he was in town
to like do this event, and yeah, I got to
meet him for ten minutes and just fangirl over him,
and he signed my books and we got to chat
for a little while, and just a really gracious dude,
but such a talented writer. And I don't think he
even realizes how talented he is, Like he is just
(44:58):
a tremendous Now.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
My brother and I were voracious readers my family with
three years of part in age and were clearly it
was divided. So I was a C. S. Lewis Roll
Doll fan, and he was a token and Frank L.
Baum fan. He read all those risend of Oz books
and he loved all the he loved the later books.
I get that. That's all that he liked those. So
(45:23):
we were our house was clearly we were like it
was two different sides. It's kind of funny how we
just naturally grabic mother just provide these books to us,
and we kind of went. I went. I went the
kind of semi religious rounde. I guess with C. S.
Lewis and all that, and there's all there's all this
stuff in there and Roll Dall was just such a
unique writer, unique perspective, mister Fox, James Well James and
(45:47):
Giant Peach, all that stuff. I just kind of it was.
It just attracted me. My brother loved he's all he's
all into token stuff. He was that was always his thing.
But he really loved all he like, he read all twelve.
He was like eleven in trouble To books. He loved
them until he loved them.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Well, Lewis had some bangers too. I mean, my personal opinion,
the best Narnia book was a Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
I'm just gonna say that. That's why that's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Yeah, Like, even as an adult, it is so magical
and the ending is so powerful, and I just feel like, dude,
it's a tremendous volume of fantasy literature, even if it's
intended for kids.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
You know, it's funny that a lot of them kind
of knew each other. Golding Compass stuff and C. S. Lewis,
and it's a whole thing of they're all kind of
doing their thing and are watching the other and it's
all it's just it's very it's very interesting stuff back
then and they're all gone. I whish I could have
them all on a panel of my show right now.
I touch all of them at the same time. But
(46:48):
I needed to escape so those are the books that
and adding Ray Bradberry and adding Isaac Asamov and all
them in there, and even even some early Stephen King.
Some of the early Stephen King was really good. But
then I enjoyed the Dark Tower series. I enjoyed Eyes
Were Dragon when he started going into kind of the fantasy,
so I was like, this is interesting, Like I never
thought he would go that direction, but I kind of
(47:10):
enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I was like, yeah, I don't know, like I haven't
read a lot of Stephen King. I started the Shining
and you know, horror, like it's not really my thing.
But I did read Rita Haywarth and Minshawshank Redemption terrific,
Like that's a great book. And I have a copy
of Carrie. I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm going
to see if I like it, and if not, I
don't know, donated to the library or something will.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
So my folks, I'm gonna give you, guys spoiler if
you read kood other book, The Kid Dies. It's made
me happy because in the movie I was like, he lives.
I was rooting for the dog that one. That's why
I love That's why I love books. Folks, because books
take you to another world. But I've have to leave
(47:51):
where you live now. It can be a great respite
from the world that we're in right now. We all
need that completely with you're living in Utah or here
in Los Angeles. It's a crazy time. And to me,
books still that's why I do this show. I was
doing this show for six seven years. I just, I
just I love books and uh and I said, I
(48:14):
always ended the show with I we don't believe in
banning books, and this this, this JLGBT is not behind
that whatsoever. Everyone should have choice of whatever they want
to read. And we don't believe in a raisure of
books and the rasure of aust that. We don't believe
in a and that stuff here, and we support indie authors.
Were like our big names, We like our big folks
like them. But to me, the backbone is indie and
(48:37):
books aren't going nowhere. They're making said, taking different forms,
maybe a little bit with a lot of the audio
stuff happening, but audible and all that. But physical copies
of books are still selling, folks. People are buying physical
copies fall media, but especially books. It's like they're not
they're not going anywhere, so please support them. Aaron, thanks
(48:58):
for being on my showy, so thank you for being
on the show.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Thanks for the invitation. I had a great time. Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
My pleasure. So now it's your chance. I'll put it
on this description. Of course, it's your chance to now
promote the funk out of yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Promote Go to Aaronandhall dot com. So that's Aaron another
n H A L L dot com. You'll find all
my books there, you'll find where you can connect with
me on social media. Yeah, thanks for thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, go there and and seriously go to his Instagram.
You're gonna like his caveman cooking. I mean is it's
a lot of fun and food looks good and he's
a nice stuff. I'm James L. Jr. I am everywhere.
I'm everywhere, James lt Jr. All over the place. Put
you had pages on Facebook, So check us out there
(49:51):
and just again, check out book support in the author.
Support the arts the arts are very important times like this,
There is some great work out there you may not
know about, so go check it out. You go to
a bookstore or going out just like peruse a round
look at covers read back. Some covers check out stuff
and just don't go for the norm that you always
go for, and check something else out and we'll see
(50:12):
you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.