December 8, 2025 • 42 mins
The Wondrous Life and Loves of Nella Carter: A Novel is out now! Amazon.com or where books are sold! James Lott Jr chats with the author! Brionni Nwosu is a writer, educator, and joyful creative based in the vibrant city of Nashville, where she lives with her husband and their three children. After more than a decade teaching students and mentoring teachers, she shifted her storytelling craft from a side passion to center stage. A 2021 We Need Diverse Books mentee under Rajani LaRocca, Brionni writes bold, heartfelt fiction that explores connection, purpose, and what it means to live a life well. Learn more at www.brionninwosu.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Folks, When I tell you this book has so many
layers like an onion, I'm not joking. This book is
the number one currently kids, the number one Black and
African American fantasy fiction. It's also number twelve and the magical.
(00:25):
I can't read my own fiction. I guess magical, reality, fiction, realism.
This book is a hit, okay already on Amazon. That
means you need to run, not walk, to your phone
or tablet after you watch this interview, and you're running
by this book. And I'm telling you as you see
behind you're watching, it's the wondrous Lives and Loves of
(00:46):
Melick Harter. It is historic, it is spiritual, it is esoteric,
it is action, is romance, it's love and loss. It's
all these things. And when I looked at my, my,
my guests, who wrote the book, and writing a book
(01:07):
an easy, folks, you'll just wake up and write a book.
I can tell a lot of heart was and thought
was put insid this because she's also an educator and
and it's spent a while of time helping support students
and helping teachers on how to teach. You know, these
(01:30):
are the stories and how I get stuff out there.
She was the twenty twenty one We Need Diverse book
Metti under Rajani Leroka was right, and it just tells
me that she's into weaving stories that have meaning and thought.
Because I'm telling you this book, I was thinking all
kinds of stuff. Help me welcome Breathe was Wuzuo.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Are you I know it's the African last name.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Right, I do.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm waiting to go over to the motherland one day.
I'd love you to see it. But I interviewed uh
n Zinga Stewart, who was a famous black directors early
in her career, and she told me her name was
something totally different. She went to Africa, went to West
Africa and said, well, she went to that beach where
(02:22):
you crossed that line where slaves were sold, their names
were changed. It profoundly hit her Natives. Like just my
show called Breaking Into you can check it out where
she talked about how she was like, you know, I
want to reclaim a name, and it's how there's some
beautiful names that come from Africa, and so you married
(02:43):
someone into that, but just they just just just beautiful,
the beautiful names, isn't there, No.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It's just it's a whole story and a half, like
I come from like the American South. My family we
can trace it back to the plantation down in Havana, Florida.
We knew that one of my ancestors was a Confederate general.
So it's it's like, that's just how things work. And
you know, what's your last name. So it was really
cool when I heard my husband to be like, oh man,
this is a free name, like his people were never
(03:09):
they've always been free. And now that's I have three
children and so they you know, it's just.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
A I can always say that product. Okay, yes, it's
a free name. It's I mean, there is stuff in
a name. There is stuff in a name. So these
people just know that. And I think it's very cool.
Congratulations on bursing this. This I call it experience. That
(03:37):
just the book is experience. It's very sweeping, and folks,
it really does. I mean we're talking folks Savannah, Neuville, Orleans, Paris, London,
New York, and we're talking different time periods like the
seventeenth century, nineteen alternates century, nineteen twenties, Montgomery in fifty five. Oh,
(04:00):
that's interesting to one the two even two thousand and five. Man,
I'm gonna tell you the last dates. I want you
guys to read the book as a date also in there.
That's it's naturally interesting. And first of all, have I
tried to ask so many questions? And I'm I trying
to out well, I'm read.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
The passage first. Okay, we'll start from there. I think
this is where we'll start from, because I think that's
very important. Okay, I made the marker where I market.
I like, get there.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Okay, here, I bet I wouldn't Nella's chest heave at
her efforts. There's me, Silas, my late mama, and Shirley others.
We all can be bad, as you say. I assure
you this is the case. I'll find proof. I'll show
(04:54):
you what I cannot see but you cannot see. Give
me a second chance, a new life, keeping her living
on the earth as it existed. Death thought it over?
Could she do it? Make him care about them? Show
him something he didn't already know. Her arrogance amused him.
(05:16):
So if I save you, grant you life, you'll bring
you this evidence you speak of, and I will decide
if humanity should continue its existence. Her eyes widened, but
she nodded. What kind of proof do you want?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
What kind? Indeed?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
His eyes dropped to the slim yellow volume. Death grinned,
more excited than more excited about this than anything you
could ever remember. That makes that sense. If you laugh
and Death hell lobby be around forever. Like your book,
you'll be caruso record your adventures show me that man
(05:53):
is redeemable, worth saving. He hadn't paid much attention today
name scribbings of humans, and there are vain attempts at remembrance.
But this will be different. This will be written for him,
and only he would know what's the catch. Her eyes narrowed.
There's always a price. Now I'm going to skip a few,
(06:15):
because that's all gets to this part.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Here.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I will give you a second chance. You seek a
true chance outside of the shackles of this current existence,
several lifetimes of freedom and gift to help you be
understood no matter where you land. And you will write
for me, prove your lofty ideas about redemption and love.
What do I lose? She interrupted. Death leaned back, the
(06:39):
shock of her reference, increasing his curiosity tenfold. A slow
smile crept into the corners of his mouth. You shall
have no descendants, no family, no tangible legacy on this earth,
only the words you write for me. And you can
tell no one of our bargain. He extended a strong
brown hand to let the idea, what do you say, folks,
(07:04):
at the beginning of that's that's in the beginning of books, folks,
that's in the beginning of the I read. When I
read that first chap, I'm like, I'm in. I mean,
I mean now to me, now, I wanna know what happens, right,
So congratulations on it. I thought that was such a
brilliant way to begin the book. First of all, how
did it feel me reading it to you?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
How to feel?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Oh it feels So it's like so strange because it's
like you write the words. But it's like I actually
read the book again because I was like, I haven't
read it in so long, like since I turned in
copy yet it. So I was like, well, let me
be up. It's in between the pages. He's gonna ask
me a questions. I'm I better have the right answers
as the author, right. And so I was reading it
again and I always have the experience of like, I
(07:46):
don't know how this thing came to be like it's
when I'm writing, I hear the characters, and so I
always say I feel like I'm writing like hell to
capture what they're saying, because it's almost like I'm a medium,
and it's like I can. I don't have like always
the strongest setting because I don't see them. I just
kind of hear them talking and how they would be
reacting and how they go back and forth, and so
(08:08):
I think, you know, I was always really proud that
the chapter with Death has always kind of been the
same from like the very first draft, the very first
thing Death always you know, appeared on the page, and
you're like, well, where would death be going? And it's
not good for whoever finds them? And so just kind
of going through like what would it feel like to
(08:28):
kind of just be dealing with humans like I've been
dealing with them for almost forty years. Imagine millennia millennia
of dealing with humans, how you would be feeling, you know,
on just a random day.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, And there's several things to go on with this one.
She has the strength to talk to death that way
were one, you know, our black women were strong folks.
If that ain't the truth, that is the Truth Number two.
Death kind of amused me a little bit, and he
pops up in the book thugs, that's not that's not,
(09:00):
that's not it. Death comes back in back. It's like
chuck it when he says, you know, like he's talking
about you know, he's as long time as you can remember,
I'm like breaths around forever. So I mean that's I mean,
he's really amused by this. By this nell Is Nella characters,
we amused by her, like that must be something, right.
So I want to ask you starting out, because we
(09:21):
have between the pages you heard the story, So who'd
you hear first? Do you hear death or do you
hear Nella.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I think it was death first because it's like it's
Nella's story, but like he's like the antagonist throughout the
entire thing, so without him, it has no form. She
would have just died. And I recently saw the Sinners
movie earlier this year, and I love the Sinners movie
because it was like, oh, these people were going to
(09:48):
have a party regardless, and vampires just happened to show up,
like you know, and so it was almost like, well,
she was gonna die regardless, and death just showed up
and you know, took her on this other journey. So
it does have like the supernatural that she can see
him and that there's like some type of mystical thing there.
And I always think I was intrigued with like a
(10:09):
story with a black character and death because we see
other people like living across centuries and blending in it,
but we never really see it from like the African
American experience going through the whole course of history, or
would somebody really think to see our society reflect it
back through this particular person, this being this entity, what
would they think about the world. And so I always
(10:33):
with my characters like they're always black, Like I don't
I don't know how to do that, but I always
try to do it in a way that it's like transparent,
so it's never like in your face or it's like,
you know, it's not an issue driven book, or she's
just a person that death happened to run into and
what did she experience as she went along the way.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
But I would see but then I would almost your book,
But I disagree with you now in a good way.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's a good way.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So I almost feel like because she is black and
what time period she starts in that is very important.
That informs the journey completely and for her to maybe
maybe maybe we're saying the same thing out now.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I feel like he's strongly that because she is.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Black and a black woman, which we never see that
in these kind of stories. So number one, we just
don't see it. If you're out there, folks, come to me,
tell me some words, I don't I don't see them.
Black man, I've seen a few, and like I said,
men and white, by not know, other races I've seen,
but I've not seen a black woman from that time period.
She starts in to say, okay, now you'll be understood
(11:40):
wherever you go. I'm just thinking that phrase, that sentiment,
right please.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Oh yeah, because it was like, well, in earlier drafts
it's like, well, maybe he's given her money, what advantages
does she have to like lift this long and be
going through the world. And I was like, there was
the movie Meet Joe Black, and there was a particular
scene with the Jamaican grandmother and he slips into his
accent and he talks to her and she they have it,
and I was like, well, death would definitely speak across
(12:08):
the different you know, that would be a gift he had,
and like, what would be an advantage that she would
have as she's going to all these different places, you know,
she's got to have one advantage because she's got to
make her own way and make her own fortune. And
then as the book was getting like as I was
talking to the editor and there was a question about like,
you know, it was almost like it was related to vampires,
(12:30):
and it was like, you know, if you're a vampire
and you've lived for two hundred years and you're broke,
just walking to the sun, right, And so it was
always very important to me that she like, she's always
a person of means, and I always wanted to associate
this is a person who has means and uses them
to affect our population, to make a difference, to make
(12:51):
a change, but it's always just there, supporting people in
the background. So it's just kind of that confluence of
just being educated, being worldly, being able to see, but
just being able to see like the dynamicness that is
her that is us to like how we would continue
to endure and thrive in any given situation.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
But also I agree with all that, but also there's
another lay fuss. I'm telling you there's so many layers
of this book. The other layer is she's keeping his
shoes secret basically, and she goes through time. She's like
living these lives, but there's a reason why she's living them.
But everybody knows why she's living them. They don't know
why she's not saying, well, you know, death told me
(13:32):
I can do this, and oh my god, like totally
like she's living this. We're going through the adventures worth
her and there's times in the book where you almost
forget the reason she's there. I'm gonna say one name, Sebastimore,
where she's living the life and right all this stuff,
but like there's a there's an expiration, there's a date
(13:53):
on it. Yeah, and she's going to another I guess
I thought that's ingenius. Also so gradually I love that.
So I mean so I so, I guess the question
would be the next question would be did you know
what was it? Did you really think? Did you know
which time periods and where you were going for each
(14:13):
the chapters?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, from the very beginning, I'm very much like an outliner.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Okay, her book came.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And like how the project developed and how everything has
been going. It was always like very clear that like
where like she would be going throughout time. And in
addition to that, there were people who got cut from
the book just for space, like there's there's like a
whole let me see two three other people. It was
like up to like Seven Loves, there was a lot
(14:41):
and it just you know, just for space and just
you know what actually like made the story go through.
And so there's like hints to those people in the story,
like when she went to a particular place, but there's
not that particular You don't get to see that particular
love in the final edited version. But it was like
in all those places go went across time and space.
(15:01):
It was like very much like intentional to see a
wide breadth of the world and to see not just
the American experience, but like how would she do in
London and what would it be like to be in
Paris and you know, seiling down the canos and all
of that type of stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I did find there were some through lines each place.
I don't give home away compan people to read it
and figure out themselves, but to me, there is a
connection to each place she goes to at each time period.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
And that's why I asked you. It was a very
deliberate because it.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Wasn't like you said, Okay, I'm a born of like
just places to go and time periods.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I'm gonna go ding that one, ding that one.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
But yeah, it has to be it's very logical and intentional.
So it's like, okay, where can she be where she
can be free at this time? And so they're like,
if you were looking at Novella Orleans at that time,
it was like much more racially mixed in the Spanish
were there, and this was a whole research project and
a half, and so it's like where could she go?
(16:04):
And you know, this is like the American Revolution when
it starts, it's like it just finished, and they're trying
to figure out what is America. Like Georgia is barely
a colony. So it's like, okay, well if you got
to Novella Orleans, where else would you be able to go?
And so it's like, well you might have more freedom
and like a Paris or London and going in that,
but when would you actually go back to America? And
(16:25):
so there was a section that it didn't make it,
but it was like she actually went back. She was
there during the like the aftermath of the Civil War,
war during reconstruction. So it really was like as we
were going through it, it's like a lot of history
of what was happening, what was possible, and then what
was logical in this story, I know.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And it's funny because also she knows that is watching her.
So it's like, how again, another layer, how do you
and the book breakspaming? You'll see it in book and
the story, but how do you maybe think this, how
do you fully engage in life knowing that death is
watching your remove?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Oh, I am very kind of morbid. It's like, well,
death is coming for us all anyway. You know, there's
a book it was called four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Berkman,
and it's like, if you're lucky, you get to be eighty,
you get four thousand weeks on this earth. And so
it's like not saying that there's a physical death watching us,
and depending on your beliefs, if there's a god watching us,
(17:30):
leave it up to the individual viewers. But your life
is right now. And I feel like my favorite person
is Adam through the book, like out of all the
people to write, out of all the characters, like everybody's great,
but like I think Adam's are reverence and was like, well,
what do you mean it's right now? Are you going
to get it now or not? It's kind of how
(17:50):
I live my life. It's like, if I see an opportunity,
I'm going to take it. What am I waiting for?
Why not have the best food? Why not have the
best experience? Like what are you saving it for? And
so that was like my favorite one to write, and
just having that you know, that verb, that vibe of
like we can do it. I've got two hands. We
can figure it out. And I'll create my future by
(18:13):
what my by whatever means necessary, and I don't let
other people's opinion me or small mindedness keep me back,
you know. So he was one of my favorites.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Yeah, he's good, that's that's very funny. But then how
do you how do you feel about Sebastian I mentioned earlier?
How do you feel about him?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I Sebastian is just I don't know. He's like the
best book boyfriend that you could have.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
In terms of life. You think, right her life, of
all the lives you.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Just get it's just you can be at ease with
yourself it just comes out. And so they always just
had the conversation where he can understood, like he has
the experience and the curiosity to really listen to her,
to really fully understand her story, whereas mother people you know,
if they're watching ESPN all the time, and he was like,
you went where, well, who like what? You know? So
having somebody who's like a historian, who loves words as
(19:06):
much as she does, but who has also had like
had a loss in his life, you know, it's like
they both needed each other and it's one of those
things that you know, it's creepy. She's two hundred and
forty years old, you know, that's a that's a may.
I don't know how many December romance that we're talking about.
But by the time they get to each other, I
(19:28):
think it's just interesting how it all develops.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Diego's fun too. It's fun. Uh. I'm just naming names, folks,
you guys, so you know.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
They'll come across them and you'll be like, oh, James
mentioned this guy didn't go and we mentioned Adam. But
I'm gonna tell you all the stuff. You gotta read
a book. That's the whole point. But that was a
strong relationship too, and I and I appreciate that one.
We'll give a thing we care I'll not giving away.
I'll just say I appreciate that relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
I like that one.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
It didn't in the way I thought it would be
or go the way I thought it would go, but
it makes sense it I like.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, for Diego, I think really exploring the family history
was like the interesting part in developing that, And it's
I'm always interested in what the characters like, how they
got to be where they are, and how that influences
where they are in that moment. And so sometimes I
describe writing as feeling like you're part detective, part like
therapists or psychiatrists, because it's just like, well, who said that,
(20:31):
who broke your heart? Likes just sit down, let's see
who told you that lie, and we just see like
how you are experiencing that particular reality.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, definitely. I covered the growth of the
White citizens councils, the news stories, the pushback we fall
faced on all sides. As the month stretched on, the
violence increased. Young men attacking people, are throwing objects at
us from their cars. One night in February nineteen fifty six,
vers at firsthand while walking toward home a car whip by,
(21:03):
the documents pounding on the roof, hooting at me, their
shrill of voices tearing through the night air. I bolted
green glass bottles exploding at my feet, leaving streaks of
urine across the pavement. If there aim have been better,
one of those bottles would have met my head. I
ran the narrow way between two houses and manster escape.
(21:25):
You know I again, you know I wasn't I wasn't born.
I was born about ten years later. But hearing that
kind of story. Talking to my grandparents are from the South,
my grother saying she is fourteen years old, and actually
you drank out of the wrong water fountain, almost got arrested.
I'm thinking you're a fourteen year old girl. I I
just have no concept whatsoever. Rite and my grandma's sweet grandmother.
(21:47):
I just say, I'm like, what who never broke up
law in her life?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Is? But reading you really do? You? Really?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
There is some historical stuff, and that's that's a Montgomery chapter.
It's very heavy. That's a very heavy one. And I
felt very much. I felt I feel like I was
transported back there.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Oh well, that's like the greatest compliment ever. I really
enjoyed that particular one because it's like it's something you know,
like you okay, you know that there was a best boycott,
you know what happens with it. But I was just
surprised at how it started the history of it. And
then just Martin Luther King. It was just really interesting
to bring him into the book in some way and
(22:27):
not have it be the focus. But the research I
did for that was helpful. I was just looking in
the book. Joanne Robinson, the character who shows up in
the book as a real person, and she was one
hundred percent like that was real. The Women's Political Council,
she was in charge of that, and so they were
the ones who had the idea for the busboycott, and
(22:49):
everybody else jumped on and then it was like the
Montgomery Improvement Association. And so I like, there's a couple
of other people in the book who are actual, real
people from history. So she's one. She had her whole memoir,
so that came from her memoir, like she talked about
some of the experiences they had, and so I had
to read that whole book to be like, Okay, there
(23:09):
really was this parking lot or like how people had
to walk and how they had to move and how
they were coordinating, and then just trying to make sure
that you know, people will try to flame you for
no reason. It's like, look, I tried, I literally tried.
And so just being able to put her in the
book was helpful. Alie Stewart, He's just mentioned for a second.
He had a much bigger version in another version, like
(23:31):
in an earlier draft of the book. But he was
an African American newspaperman who was over there during you know,
World War two, and he was writing back for you know,
newspapers in Maryland and Baltimore. The other person, U Leilee,
was a real person and she was heard. Some of
her facts were changed just due to like how editing
(23:51):
and all the story goes. But she really was married
to him and was really one of the richest people
in like novelle or ladies at the time. Was just
a little I tried to sprinkle them in. So it's
just like it's a little bit like, well, I'm not
sure if this person is real or this that my
copy editor had a time. It's like I looked up
this movie. I didn't it didn't know. The first two
(24:13):
are real, the last one is made up. So we
had to we had I was getting fact checked right
and left to make sure that. I just wanted it
to feel like it was like plausible logical that these
things would have happened, that people would.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Have that experience, which is good when you want to
do that. You wanted you that wasn't if you're a
real person, When did you get the facts right? We
just want sure because you're also descendants.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Don't you even like, don't you be.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Talking about my mama like that was like a grandma
on on an anti trying to do right.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yes, but also I mean, it's it's good that they
you're right there.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
So folks, these these characters pop up by he said, again,
I know they were real, but they fit this narrative
of the story. So you did do a good job
with the balance between them coming in just being like
these what's the word I'm looking for? Just says just
like at this person and there it's because like there's
a reason why he's there. It's natural, it's organic. That's
(25:07):
what I was doing because I don't even know some
of I know who I'm okay once, but some of
the other ones I didn't know about. Oh, that's that's
very cool. That's very cool. And on a side note,
I you know, I've been to Georgia. I've been to
parts of Virginia, you know, I've been to parts of
the Caribbean where slave trades were happening and different things.
(25:27):
And it's it's I've been to the mlock in your
park and in Georgia, which is that it's a beautiful,
beautiful place to go into you see replicause of this
jail cell he was in was it's it's a trip.
I've been to the church, you know, I've been to
places down on the Sathurlly. I did part of that circuit.
It's just to see it. But and I just I
just think any and I'm not even thinking it's black people,
(25:49):
any Americans should see this stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
I know there's stuff away. We started on that, but.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
These are things. If they're still here, get a chance
to go see him and support them, fight for them.
This is American history. And I just say, and that's it.
Just get preachyer and just that.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
It's just it's.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Amazing American history. Like she was here before this was
a country, you know, And this was just a bunch
of colonies trying not to pick taxes, and so when
you think about the evolution of it, I wanted it
not to be like just an American story because to me,
like Death's central premise, humans are terrible everywhere, like it
is not you know, it's particular, like I love my country,
(26:30):
I love like my history and all the others that
I like the complexity of it. If it had not happened,
I wouldn't be here today. So like I that all
of the stuff led to like this moment and where
we are. But I think it's just like human natures,
like tendency towards greed, towards just destruction. I just feel
(26:50):
like sometimes just feels very unnatural that you know, in
all the wonder in the world, like you're alive and
not you got air conditioning, you got toilet, you got
you got all y'all still fighting like that is the problem,
you know. So I think that this story does help
people just remember like it really is a small things
of like the relationships you have, the things you're able
(27:11):
to record, the experiences is really like the meaning of life.
All the other stuff like that says you can't take
it with you, like you be begging that pig is
going to stay here, that all that money going to
stay here.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
So you know, it's very true. There is allegedly.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
David Cassidy, of all people people we do from Putts family,
all in certain generation knows of him and favorites family
and allegedly, I say it's allegedly it's the favorite story
is going around. But he that when he was dying,
he told his daughter, I wasted so Mu's time. And
I think that's something that I think with this story,
I say for the story and stuff that you know,
Della is she's trying to show death that it's not wasteful,
(27:54):
that we're just we're humans, but it's good in the world,
and she's good and she wants to be like there's
a whole thing there. It's always the quence like, oh yeah,
but when it's my turn to go, I hope I
can say I watch.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I hope I didn't hope I never do that. It's
one of the worst thing is to feel.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
There's a book that I really liked. It is The
Collective Regrets of Clover and the girl is a death
doula and she records people's death, their lives and then
their death, and you know, as they're dying, she sits
with them as they die. And she had like three
notebooks and one of them was like advice, the other
one was regrets, and another one was confessions, and so
she just was recording what these people had. And so
(28:34):
I'm very much conscious of like, you're not promised tomorrow,
and so this is like the greatest game I could
ever play or think to play. And my favorite song
that I was doing something else and it was like, well,
what's your favorite song, And it really is Beyonce's I
was here, like I did something, I was creative, I lived,
I loved, I did my best, Like I really tried
(28:55):
to get the most out of this life. And so
I just hope that that's been carried through in this
book of like she would do the same, and just
I would want everybody else to just not be limited
by whatever the world thinks of you or tells you,
or they're they're small limited, they don't have the thing
to really see you and your greatness and your capacity.
They can only have these little labels. But you, in
(29:18):
the miracle that is life, you know, are entitled to
as big a life as you want to have.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
In the outlining of the story, because one of the
major things is in any of the book, whether it's
gonna even if it's an on a cliffhanger, you have
to have an end some kind of there are things
those last couple chapters.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Need to do committed.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know, it's over three hundred pages. Kids, We're like, okay, now,
let's see what's going on.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
What's going on? Right? Follow we follow home girl, her
life and loves and you want to and I'm gonna
not gonna tell the ending. Obviously, how easier hard was it? Not?
The question?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
The question is did you have an ending in the
beginning and did it change as you were writing the book.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Nope. The first chapter with death walking on the page
and then having their conversation and then the last chapter
were the ones that were like the most locked in
from the very beginning. And so I like when stories
where there's echoes, where there's something in the beginning and
then they mentioned it at the end. I love those
like I'm very like, it's my little that's my it. Yeah,
(30:33):
it's the callback. And so if you were to reread it,
you would see at the ending of like the first
part and then the very last line of the book
are very similar. They're almost exact, and so that's just
my personal thing of like, I don't know, that's just
my favorite thing about it. It's just like like how
it echoes back and just like the possibility, like of
(30:56):
whatever the journey will be after this.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
We am reading, I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
So not the epilog. So it's like the very first
and then the one right before the epilogue. You look
and see if you can see the similarities, if you
can see what I was trying to do there.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay, things haen Sante, I think, Okay. The one character
we ever really talked about. We talked about kids and pieces,
but she is in the cover name of the cover's
and it's Nella May Carter, So let's tell me about her.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, it's so funny. It's like her middle name is May,
my daughter's middle name is Made. It's spelled differently. I
have a son named Carter, and so it's just one
of those things where you know, there's Georgia, it's not
really the Carter family, the presidential family, but it was
interesting to do the history of the time. There's a
lot of research, but I there was a lot of backstory.
(31:52):
I had a right to figure out who she was
as she went through the world. So there is like
a whole section about her relationship with her mother and
how are mother and her used to interact and how
they would engage, and like how her and sielests and
how everything just happened. So it's just like there's a
lot of how she came to be being a biracial
(32:13):
the daughter of, you know, the master of the plantation
with another person, how you're kind of in between worlds
and how you're treated, and then depending on your skin
tone as you go through time, how that's impacted as
somebody who you know, with my particular complexion, knowing like
that does play into people's perception of you and how
you have that experience. And so in the story, wanted
(32:35):
to make sure that there was like a great variety
of different skin tones and backgrounds, just to show like
the people's relation to each other. But I think that
Nella's fascination with reading is especially important given like the
codes that weren't in place at the time, but then
became like you can't teach them how to read to
have her leaving her legacy. What is her story was
(32:56):
like very important, like how is she seeing and perceiving
the world and making sure that you know, she's recording
the goodness that she can see and it's not somebody
else telling her story. I think a lot of the
early books from that time are people who are having
their things recorded by somebody else. So I think, like
there's a history of on a judge who was owned
by President Washington, and there's different stories, but just what
(33:19):
would somebody from that time if they were today, what
would they be able to say about the world.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, that's very cool. And that's again where she's born
into a lot of things we're not having for as
black folk, we didn't allow to do a lot of things,
and that she's now again which adds to little layers
I mentioned earlier. I put myself into like, well, now
she's gonna be allowed. He said, you'll be free. Wherever
you go, you will be.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
But then there's an incident that happens to her back
when she was like on the plantation, And it was
one of the things that I added in later because
I can't just try to whitewash history or try to
pretend like it wasn't Like, there's no way she would
have gotten to a certain age without this particular company.
And so it's just like, you know, taking the look
(34:06):
at history and just saying what it is and not
trying to like hide it. But you know, this is
kind of how these things work.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
How is it for?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It is no one just needs to take a left turn.
But it's it's it's a it's a cousin to this conversation.
How are you on this show? I always talk about
we don't ban books. We don't believe in. We don't
believe it. We believe in, we believe in. Diversity means everything,
not just black diversity is everything. How are you counting
this stuff with the current state of people trying to
(34:38):
erase books, certain people, certain author I mean, how are you?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I feel like it's almost the barber It's called the
barbarous strissand effect, Like by trying to hide something, you
make it even bigger than if you had just not
said anything. Like if you hadn't put this thing on
the list, nobody was going to read that book. But
the minute you tell somebody not to do something, I'm
going to read it anyway. I'm going to read it
out a spy. And so I think the band books
(35:02):
to me, this whole situation, to me, always reveals more
about the people who are doing the taking away. Like
if you have to keep again things so small and
have to keep people's minds so narrow, it's for them
to continue to believe a certain thing.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I just believe there's some immutable truths, like truth is truth,
and so you can tell me anything and I'll be like, huh,
I can change my mind. It's going to be okay.
If there's a nuance, this is true. This is true.
But I think the band books are always a way
to assert control in a sort authority, And a little
bit in my next book that I'm writing, it really
(35:36):
is like how artificial that control is, and the people
who are giving these dictakes, y'all really shouldn't be in
charge of anything or nothing, Like wait, wait, hold up,
are we all waking up to the fact that you
shouldn't be in charge of nothing? And I actually can
I can just do what I want to do. Oh okay.
So I feel like that's where I'm seeing the world
(35:58):
kind of evolving. Is like people just remember like, hey,
I have my own agency. You can believe what you
want to believe. I'm going to read what I want
to believe because I think in this book too, the
American dream is a dream. It doesn't really exist for
most people. And so just seeing how people were still
able to like, live and love and be able to
evolve underneath all of these systems, I think is the
(36:20):
real human thing. Like money is not the most important
thing at all, and so it's really about the experiences
and the quality of the life you have.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah, not perfectly. Is this the last week? Cnela? Do
you think or do you think she might show up later?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I don't know anything. If she shows up in another form,
I know she's in an audiobook and she'll be available
on December first. If people want to see the lovely
talents of like Nicole Cash and you know, to see
what she sounds like, and then you know, to be
able to hear death. He's a different narrator as well.
So that's one iteration. I don't know beyond it. The
(37:03):
one that I'm working on as a potential follow up
is not the same world, but it's got like still
black characters kind of doing magical stuff and experiencing the
world and kind of getting through. But yeah, she had
she had a long life.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I don't know if there's that many stories he did, folks,
as of we're recording, Is this the number one Amazon
bestselling Black and African American fantasy fiction.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I's want to make sure I say it again to.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Go number one. I've gone them around a couple of
times on the Amazon charts.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
It's not easy.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
There's a lot of books out there from that get
released every day all the time. So that's a big achievement. Congratulations,
that's the biggest, a big achievement.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
And the first the like being chosen for Amazon First
Reads is like that felt like winning the lottery to
be like being at that stage in that platform. And
so I've been writing since twenty eighteen, like when I
was like, I'm really gonna be a writer, and I
was a little bit different than everybody when it comes
to writing, Like when I look at the writing, I
(38:07):
was always inspired. There was an article about Peter Pan.
The man who wrote Peter Pan gifted the rights to
Peter Pan to a hospital and that person died in
like the nineteen thirties. That hospital is still getting money
in perpetuity based off the Peter Pan's story and so
part of the reason that I'm like, I love stories,
I love writing, and how the stories of people long
(38:27):
since dead are still impacting me in my life. I'm
also interested in what are the big ideas that will
continue to generate interest and then also revenue beyond my
own lifetime, Like what can I create that's big enough that,
you know, my children's children could potentially have like revenue
and some type of thing like from it, or have
their own legacy that you know, my great great grandmama
(38:50):
did something that mattered to somebody at some time. So
I don't know if this will be this particular book,
but this is like Adam, I'm trying. I'm going to
keep creating and putting things out there.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, I'll tell you this book, folks, and for everybody,
but I'm gonna say especially for black women, it's a
great read. You it's a great read, and you're the
center of focus of the story. And that's when I
checked it out to folks. Can I have friends like
what I should? I want to read something or read
something that they can read that they can be relatable to.
And I'm telling you, people think about stuff. When you
(39:21):
read this book, you'll be thinking what would I do
as that situation? Or wheb I was told this? Or
when I talk to death there, how do you responded dead?
Then you know it's I don't trying to say how
do you responded death? It's a character in the book,
but it's it's uh, I said, it's just such a
great read. Thank you, and thank you for being on
the show.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Oh, I hope to be back soon. I see you
have a lot of repeat guests, so I have to
get to you know, get to writing so I can
come back and visit.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Though you are welcome any time, any books come back
on the show Girl anytime, any any any time. I
think all you focus on Amazon, so you have kindall
her back and you said audios comeing out soon or
is it already?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, So you can get it now because of Amazon
First Reads. If you are an Amazon Prime Member or
if you're part of Kindle Unlimited, you can get it
for free if you want it to be your book
or it's like a discount. And the December first is
the official launch date where you can get it here
in America. And then it also is being published in
the UK, so you can get it on December fourth
(40:19):
if you were over the pond watching this and I'm
experiencing that way, but you could also I think it's
target Barnes and Noble at least online. You can get
it those places as well.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Now, do you have fans across the pond, so ask
you up and if they want to talk to you,
you're a website cubcket is your chance to tell them?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Oh yes, So my website is ww dot Brianni wusu
dot com. It's like if you get the book, it's
on the back. It's like in all of my bios
that I try to do all the updates. Like I said,
this is my first interview as an author, and so
I know that one of the things I've talked about
is like coming to book clubs virtually to see, you know,
(40:59):
talking about the character is doing very much the same thing.
And then also encouraging other people to write their own
stories and being able to you know, pull their creations
and making like making you see that this is a
very real thing that you can create with plans and strategy.
So excited just to see where it goes, and you know,
just getting ready for the author life pretty much.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, I'm a fan. I mean.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
And again I always say on these shows, support indie
writers and along aside the big ones you sport them
to you. I have some friends who are big time writers,
but also support the indie writer. Do your best, take
spand your reach of people, because I do these shows
like you, so I can help you with that. Because
there's so many great writers, just you don't know who
(41:45):
they are. And I know sometimes you'll see you go
to a library or bookstores to see of books you know.
But let me tell you a chance. Turn over, read the
back of a baby who knows, look them up onlines
what they're talking about like this, you may learn something
and go. You got to check the book out. So
I will continue support writers and authors and will always
(42:07):
go in between the pages of course with them. Uh
We're on Facebook, I'm everywhere. I'm James a junior everywhere
in TikTok, all of it. So follow uh and I
always try to support anybody on the come up. That's
what we do. We uplift each other. Everyone. Please take
care of yourselves out there. Read a book
Folks, When I tell you this book has so many
layers like an onion, I'm not joking. This book is
the number one currently kids, the number one Black and
African American fantasy fiction. It's also number twelve and the magical.
(00:25):
I can't read my own fiction. I guess magical, reality, fiction, realism.
This book is a hit, okay already on Amazon. That
means you need to run, not walk, to your phone
or tablet after you watch this interview, and you're running
by this book. And I'm telling you as you see
behind you're watching, it's the wondrous Lives and Loves of
(00:46):
Melick Harter. It is historic, it is spiritual, it is esoteric,
it is action, is romance, it's love and loss. It's
all these things. And when I looked at my, my,
my guests, who wrote the book, and writing a book
(01:07):
an easy, folks, you'll just wake up and write a book.
I can tell a lot of heart was and thought
was put insid this because she's also an educator and
and it's spent a while of time helping support students
and helping teachers on how to teach. You know, these
(01:30):
are the stories and how I get stuff out there.
She was the twenty twenty one We Need Diverse book
Metti under Rajani Leroka was right, and it just tells
me that she's into weaving stories that have meaning and thought.
Because I'm telling you this book, I was thinking all
kinds of stuff. Help me welcome Breathe was Wuzuo.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Are you I know it's the African last name.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Right, I do.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm waiting to go over to the motherland one day.
I'd love you to see it. But I interviewed uh
n Zinga Stewart, who was a famous black directors early
in her career, and she told me her name was
something totally different. She went to Africa, went to West
Africa and said, well, she went to that beach where
(02:22):
you crossed that line where slaves were sold, their names
were changed. It profoundly hit her Natives. Like just my
show called Breaking Into you can check it out where
she talked about how she was like, you know, I
want to reclaim a name, and it's how there's some
beautiful names that come from Africa, and so you married
(02:43):
someone into that, but just they just just just beautiful,
the beautiful names, isn't there, No.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It's just it's a whole story and a half, like
I come from like the American South. My family we
can trace it back to the plantation down in Havana, Florida.
We knew that one of my ancestors was a Confederate general.
So it's it's like, that's just how things work. And
you know, what's your last name. So it was really
cool when I heard my husband to be like, oh man,
this is a free name, like his people were never
(03:09):
they've always been free. And now that's I have three
children and so they you know, it's just.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
A I can always say that product. Okay, yes, it's
a free name. It's I mean, there is stuff in
a name. There is stuff in a name. So these
people just know that. And I think it's very cool.
Congratulations on bursing this. This I call it experience. That
(03:37):
just the book is experience. It's very sweeping, and folks,
it really does. I mean we're talking folks Savannah, Neuville, Orleans, Paris, London,
New York, and we're talking different time periods like the
seventeenth century, nineteen alternates century, nineteen twenties, Montgomery in fifty five. Oh,
(04:00):
that's interesting to one the two even two thousand and five. Man,
I'm gonna tell you the last dates. I want you
guys to read the book as a date also in there.
That's it's naturally interesting. And first of all, have I
tried to ask so many questions? And I'm I trying
to out well, I'm read.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
The passage first. Okay, we'll start from there. I think
this is where we'll start from, because I think that's
very important. Okay, I made the marker where I market.
I like, get there.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Okay, here, I bet I wouldn't Nella's chest heave at
her efforts. There's me, Silas, my late mama, and Shirley others.
We all can be bad, as you say. I assure
you this is the case. I'll find proof. I'll show
(04:54):
you what I cannot see but you cannot see. Give
me a second chance, a new life, keeping her living
on the earth as it existed. Death thought it over?
Could she do it? Make him care about them? Show
him something he didn't already know. Her arrogance amused him.
(05:16):
So if I save you, grant you life, you'll bring
you this evidence you speak of, and I will decide
if humanity should continue its existence. Her eyes widened, but
she nodded. What kind of proof do you want?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
What kind? Indeed?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
His eyes dropped to the slim yellow volume. Death grinned,
more excited than more excited about this than anything you
could ever remember. That makes that sense. If you laugh
and Death hell lobby be around forever. Like your book,
you'll be caruso record your adventures show me that man
(05:53):
is redeemable, worth saving. He hadn't paid much attention today
name scribbings of humans, and there are vain attempts at remembrance.
But this will be different. This will be written for him,
and only he would know what's the catch. Her eyes narrowed.
There's always a price. Now I'm going to skip a few,
(06:15):
because that's all gets to this part.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Here.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I will give you a second chance. You seek a
true chance outside of the shackles of this current existence,
several lifetimes of freedom and gift to help you be
understood no matter where you land. And you will write
for me, prove your lofty ideas about redemption and love.
What do I lose? She interrupted. Death leaned back, the
(06:39):
shock of her reference, increasing his curiosity tenfold. A slow
smile crept into the corners of his mouth. You shall
have no descendants, no family, no tangible legacy on this earth,
only the words you write for me. And you can
tell no one of our bargain. He extended a strong
brown hand to let the idea, what do you say, folks,
(07:04):
at the beginning of that's that's in the beginning of books, folks,
that's in the beginning of the I read. When I
read that first chap, I'm like, I'm in. I mean,
I mean now to me, now, I wanna know what happens, right,
So congratulations on it. I thought that was such a
brilliant way to begin the book. First of all, how
did it feel me reading it to you?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
How to feel?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Oh it feels So it's like so strange because it's
like you write the words. But it's like I actually
read the book again because I was like, I haven't
read it in so long, like since I turned in
copy yet it. So I was like, well, let me
be up. It's in between the pages. He's gonna ask
me a questions. I'm I better have the right answers
as the author, right. And so I was reading it
again and I always have the experience of like, I
(07:46):
don't know how this thing came to be like it's
when I'm writing, I hear the characters, and so I
always say I feel like I'm writing like hell to
capture what they're saying, because it's almost like I'm a medium,
and it's like I can. I don't have like always
the strongest setting because I don't see them. I just
kind of hear them talking and how they would be
reacting and how they go back and forth, and so
(08:08):
I think, you know, I was always really proud that
the chapter with Death has always kind of been the
same from like the very first draft, the very first
thing Death always you know, appeared on the page, and
you're like, well, where would death be going? And it's
not good for whoever finds them? And so just kind
of going through like what would it feel like to
(08:28):
kind of just be dealing with humans like I've been
dealing with them for almost forty years. Imagine millennia millennia
of dealing with humans, how you would be feeling, you know,
on just a random day.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, And there's several things to go on with this one.
She has the strength to talk to death that way
were one, you know, our black women were strong folks.
If that ain't the truth, that is the Truth Number two.
Death kind of amused me a little bit, and he
pops up in the book thugs, that's not that's not,
(09:00):
that's not it. Death comes back in back. It's like
chuck it when he says, you know, like he's talking
about you know, he's as long time as you can remember,
I'm like breaths around forever. So I mean that's I mean,
he's really amused by this. By this nell Is Nella characters,
we amused by her, like that must be something, right.
So I want to ask you starting out, because we
(09:21):
have between the pages you heard the story, So who'd
you hear first? Do you hear death or do you
hear Nella.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I think it was death first because it's like it's
Nella's story, but like he's like the antagonist throughout the
entire thing, so without him, it has no form. She
would have just died. And I recently saw the Sinners
movie earlier this year, and I love the Sinners movie
because it was like, oh, these people were going to
(09:48):
have a party regardless, and vampires just happened to show up,
like you know, and so it was almost like, well,
she was gonna die regardless, and death just showed up
and you know, took her on this other journey. So
it does have like the supernatural that she can see
him and that there's like some type of mystical thing there.
And I always think I was intrigued with like a
(10:09):
story with a black character and death because we see
other people like living across centuries and blending in it,
but we never really see it from like the African
American experience going through the whole course of history, or
would somebody really think to see our society reflect it
back through this particular person, this being this entity, what
would they think about the world. And so I always
(10:33):
with my characters like they're always black, Like I don't
I don't know how to do that, but I always
try to do it in a way that it's like transparent,
so it's never like in your face or it's like,
you know, it's not an issue driven book, or she's
just a person that death happened to run into and
what did she experience as she went along the way.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
But I would see but then I would almost your book,
But I disagree with you now in a good way.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's a good way.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So I almost feel like because she is black and
what time period she starts in that is very important.
That informs the journey completely and for her to maybe
maybe maybe we're saying the same thing out now.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I feel like he's strongly that because she is.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Black and a black woman, which we never see that
in these kind of stories. So number one, we just
don't see it. If you're out there, folks, come to me,
tell me some words, I don't I don't see them.
Black man, I've seen a few, and like I said,
men and white, by not know, other races I've seen,
but I've not seen a black woman from that time period.
She starts in to say, okay, now you'll be understood
(11:40):
wherever you go. I'm just thinking that phrase, that sentiment,
right please.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Oh yeah, because it was like, well, in earlier drafts
it's like, well, maybe he's given her money, what advantages
does she have to like lift this long and be
going through the world. And I was like, there was
the movie Meet Joe Black, and there was a particular
scene with the Jamaican grandmother and he slips into his
accent and he talks to her and she they have it,
and I was like, well, death would definitely speak across
(12:08):
the different you know, that would be a gift he had,
and like, what would be an advantage that she would
have as she's going to all these different places, you know,
she's got to have one advantage because she's got to
make her own way and make her own fortune. And
then as the book was getting like as I was
talking to the editor and there was a question about like,
you know, it was almost like it was related to vampires,
(12:30):
and it was like, you know, if you're a vampire
and you've lived for two hundred years and you're broke,
just walking to the sun, right, And so it was
always very important to me that she like, she's always
a person of means, and I always wanted to associate
this is a person who has means and uses them
to affect our population, to make a difference, to make
(12:51):
a change, but it's always just there, supporting people in
the background. So it's just kind of that confluence of
just being educated, being worldly, being able to see, but
just being able to see like the dynamicness that is
her that is us to like how we would continue
to endure and thrive in any given situation.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
But also I agree with all that, but also there's
another lay fuss. I'm telling you there's so many layers
of this book. The other layer is she's keeping his
shoes secret basically, and she goes through time. She's like
living these lives, but there's a reason why she's living them.
But everybody knows why she's living them. They don't know
why she's not saying, well, you know, death told me
(13:32):
I can do this, and oh my god, like totally
like she's living this. We're going through the adventures worth
her and there's times in the book where you almost
forget the reason she's there. I'm gonna say one name, Sebastimore,
where she's living the life and right all this stuff,
but like there's a there's an expiration, there's a date
(13:53):
on it. Yeah, and she's going to another I guess
I thought that's ingenius. Also so gradually I love that.
So I mean so I so, I guess the question
would be the next question would be did you know
what was it? Did you really think? Did you know
which time periods and where you were going for each
(14:13):
the chapters?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, from the very beginning, I'm very much like an outliner.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Okay, her book came.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And like how the project developed and how everything has
been going. It was always like very clear that like
where like she would be going throughout time. And in
addition to that, there were people who got cut from
the book just for space, like there's there's like a
whole let me see two three other people. It was
like up to like Seven Loves, there was a lot
(14:41):
and it just you know, just for space and just
you know what actually like made the story go through.
And so there's like hints to those people in the story,
like when she went to a particular place, but there's
not that particular You don't get to see that particular
love in the final edited version. But it was like
in all those places go went across time and space.
(15:01):
It was like very much like intentional to see a
wide breadth of the world and to see not just
the American experience, but like how would she do in
London and what would it be like to be in
Paris and you know, seiling down the canos and all
of that type of stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I did find there were some through lines each place.
I don't give home away compan people to read it
and figure out themselves, but to me, there is a
connection to each place she goes to at each time period.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
And that's why I asked you. It was a very
deliberate because it.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Wasn't like you said, Okay, I'm a born of like
just places to go and time periods.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I'm gonna go ding that one, ding that one.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
But yeah, it has to be it's very logical and intentional.
So it's like, okay, where can she be where she
can be free at this time? And so they're like,
if you were looking at Novella Orleans at that time,
it was like much more racially mixed in the Spanish
were there, and this was a whole research project and
a half, and so it's like where could she go?
(16:04):
And you know, this is like the American Revolution when
it starts, it's like it just finished, and they're trying
to figure out what is America. Like Georgia is barely
a colony. So it's like, okay, well if you got
to Novella Orleans, where else would you be able to go?
And so it's like, well you might have more freedom
and like a Paris or London and going in that,
but when would you actually go back to America? And
(16:25):
so there was a section that it didn't make it,
but it was like she actually went back. She was
there during the like the aftermath of the Civil War,
war during reconstruction. So it really was like as we
were going through it, it's like a lot of history
of what was happening, what was possible, and then what
was logical in this story, I know.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And it's funny because also she knows that is watching her.
So it's like, how again, another layer, how do you
and the book breakspaming? You'll see it in book and
the story, but how do you maybe think this, how
do you fully engage in life knowing that death is
watching your remove?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Oh, I am very kind of morbid. It's like, well,
death is coming for us all anyway. You know, there's
a book it was called four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Berkman,
and it's like, if you're lucky, you get to be eighty,
you get four thousand weeks on this earth. And so
it's like not saying that there's a physical death watching us,
and depending on your beliefs, if there's a god watching us,
(17:30):
leave it up to the individual viewers. But your life
is right now. And I feel like my favorite person
is Adam through the book, like out of all the
people to write, out of all the characters, like everybody's great,
but like I think Adam's are reverence and was like, well,
what do you mean it's right now? Are you going
to get it now or not? It's kind of how
(17:50):
I live my life. It's like, if I see an opportunity,
I'm going to take it. What am I waiting for?
Why not have the best food? Why not have the
best experience? Like what are you saving it for? And
so that was like my favorite one to write, and
just having that you know, that verb, that vibe of
like we can do it. I've got two hands. We
can figure it out. And I'll create my future by
(18:13):
what my by whatever means necessary, and I don't let
other people's opinion me or small mindedness keep me back,
you know. So he was one of my favorites.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Yeah, he's good, that's that's very funny. But then how
do you how do you feel about Sebastian I mentioned earlier?
How do you feel about him?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I Sebastian is just I don't know. He's like the
best book boyfriend that you could have.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
In terms of life. You think, right her life, of
all the lives you.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Just get it's just you can be at ease with
yourself it just comes out. And so they always just
had the conversation where he can understood, like he has
the experience and the curiosity to really listen to her,
to really fully understand her story, whereas mother people you know,
if they're watching ESPN all the time, and he was like,
you went where, well, who like what? You know? So
having somebody who's like a historian, who loves words as
(19:06):
much as she does, but who has also had like
had a loss in his life, you know, it's like
they both needed each other and it's one of those
things that you know, it's creepy. She's two hundred and
forty years old, you know, that's a that's a may.
I don't know how many December romance that we're talking about.
But by the time they get to each other, I
(19:28):
think it's just interesting how it all develops.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Diego's fun too. It's fun. Uh. I'm just naming names, folks,
you guys, so you know.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
They'll come across them and you'll be like, oh, James
mentioned this guy didn't go and we mentioned Adam. But
I'm gonna tell you all the stuff. You gotta read
a book. That's the whole point. But that was a
strong relationship too, and I and I appreciate that one.
We'll give a thing we care I'll not giving away.
I'll just say I appreciate that relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
I like that one.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
It didn't in the way I thought it would be
or go the way I thought it would go, but
it makes sense it I like.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, for Diego, I think really exploring the family history
was like the interesting part in developing that, And it's
I'm always interested in what the characters like, how they
got to be where they are, and how that influences
where they are in that moment. And so sometimes I
describe writing as feeling like you're part detective, part like
therapists or psychiatrists, because it's just like, well, who said that,
(20:31):
who broke your heart? Likes just sit down, let's see
who told you that lie, and we just see like
how you are experiencing that particular reality.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, definitely. I covered the growth of the
White citizens councils, the news stories, the pushback we fall
faced on all sides. As the month stretched on, the
violence increased. Young men attacking people, are throwing objects at
us from their cars. One night in February nineteen fifty six,
vers at firsthand while walking toward home a car whip by,
(21:03):
the documents pounding on the roof, hooting at me, their
shrill of voices tearing through the night air. I bolted
green glass bottles exploding at my feet, leaving streaks of
urine across the pavement. If there aim have been better,
one of those bottles would have met my head. I
ran the narrow way between two houses and manster escape.
(21:25):
You know I again, you know I wasn't I wasn't born.
I was born about ten years later. But hearing that
kind of story. Talking to my grandparents are from the South,
my grother saying she is fourteen years old, and actually
you drank out of the wrong water fountain, almost got arrested.
I'm thinking you're a fourteen year old girl. I I
just have no concept whatsoever. Rite and my grandma's sweet grandmother.
(21:47):
I just say, I'm like, what who never broke up
law in her life?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Is? But reading you really do? You? Really?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
There is some historical stuff, and that's that's a Montgomery chapter.
It's very heavy. That's a very heavy one. And I
felt very much. I felt I feel like I was
transported back there.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Oh well, that's like the greatest compliment ever. I really
enjoyed that particular one because it's like it's something you know,
like you okay, you know that there was a best boycott,
you know what happens with it. But I was just
surprised at how it started the history of it. And
then just Martin Luther King. It was just really interesting
to bring him into the book in some way and
(22:27):
not have it be the focus. But the research I
did for that was helpful. I was just looking in
the book. Joanne Robinson, the character who shows up in
the book as a real person, and she was one
hundred percent like that was real. The Women's Political Council,
she was in charge of that, and so they were
the ones who had the idea for the busboycott, and
(22:49):
everybody else jumped on and then it was like the
Montgomery Improvement Association. And so I like, there's a couple
of other people in the book who are actual, real
people from history. So she's one. She had her whole memoir,
so that came from her memoir, like she talked about
some of the experiences they had, and so I had
to read that whole book to be like, Okay, there
(23:09):
really was this parking lot or like how people had
to walk and how they had to move and how
they were coordinating, and then just trying to make sure
that you know, people will try to flame you for
no reason. It's like, look, I tried, I literally tried.
And so just being able to put her in the
book was helpful. Alie Stewart, He's just mentioned for a second.
He had a much bigger version in another version, like
(23:31):
in an earlier draft of the book. But he was
an African American newspaperman who was over there during you know,
World War two, and he was writing back for you know,
newspapers in Maryland and Baltimore. The other person, U Leilee,
was a real person and she was heard. Some of
her facts were changed just due to like how editing
(23:51):
and all the story goes. But she really was married
to him and was really one of the richest people
in like novelle or ladies at the time. Was just
a little I tried to sprinkle them in. So it's
just like it's a little bit like, well, I'm not
sure if this person is real or this that my
copy editor had a time. It's like I looked up
this movie. I didn't it didn't know. The first two
(24:13):
are real, the last one is made up. So we
had to we had I was getting fact checked right
and left to make sure that. I just wanted it
to feel like it was like plausible logical that these
things would have happened, that people would.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Have that experience, which is good when you want to
do that. You wanted you that wasn't if you're a
real person, When did you get the facts right? We
just want sure because you're also descendants.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Don't you even like, don't you be.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Talking about my mama like that was like a grandma
on on an anti trying to do right.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yes, but also I mean, it's it's good that they
you're right there.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
So folks, these these characters pop up by he said, again,
I know they were real, but they fit this narrative
of the story. So you did do a good job
with the balance between them coming in just being like
these what's the word I'm looking for? Just says just
like at this person and there it's because like there's
a reason why he's there. It's natural, it's organic. That's
(25:07):
what I was doing because I don't even know some
of I know who I'm okay once, but some of
the other ones I didn't know about. Oh, that's that's
very cool. That's very cool. And on a side note,
I you know, I've been to Georgia. I've been to
parts of Virginia, you know, I've been to parts of
the Caribbean where slave trades were happening and different things.
(25:27):
And it's it's I've been to the mlock in your
park and in Georgia, which is that it's a beautiful,
beautiful place to go into you see replicause of this
jail cell he was in was it's it's a trip.
I've been to the church, you know, I've been to
places down on the Sathurlly. I did part of that circuit.
It's just to see it. But and I just I
just think any and I'm not even thinking it's black people,
(25:49):
any Americans should see this stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
I know there's stuff away. We started on that, but.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
These are things. If they're still here, get a chance
to go see him and support them, fight for them.
This is American history. And I just say, and that's it.
Just get preachyer and just that.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
It's just it's.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Amazing American history. Like she was here before this was
a country, you know, And this was just a bunch
of colonies trying not to pick taxes, and so when
you think about the evolution of it, I wanted it
not to be like just an American story because to me,
like Death's central premise, humans are terrible everywhere, like it
is not you know, it's particular, like I love my country,
(26:30):
I love like my history and all the others that
I like the complexity of it. If it had not happened,
I wouldn't be here today. So like I that all
of the stuff led to like this moment and where
we are. But I think it's just like human natures,
like tendency towards greed, towards just destruction. I just feel
(26:50):
like sometimes just feels very unnatural that you know, in
all the wonder in the world, like you're alive and
not you got air conditioning, you got toilet, you got
you got all y'all still fighting like that is the problem,
you know. So I think that this story does help
people just remember like it really is a small things
of like the relationships you have, the things you're able
(27:11):
to record, the experiences is really like the meaning of life.
All the other stuff like that says you can't take
it with you, like you be begging that pig is
going to stay here, that all that money going to
stay here.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
So you know, it's very true. There is allegedly.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
David Cassidy, of all people people we do from Putts family,
all in certain generation knows of him and favorites family
and allegedly, I say it's allegedly it's the favorite story
is going around. But he that when he was dying,
he told his daughter, I wasted so Mu's time. And
I think that's something that I think with this story,
I say for the story and stuff that you know,
Della is she's trying to show death that it's not wasteful,
(27:54):
that we're just we're humans, but it's good in the world,
and she's good and she wants to be like there's
a whole thing there. It's always the quence like, oh yeah,
but when it's my turn to go, I hope I
can say I watch.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I hope I didn't hope I never do that. It's
one of the worst thing is to feel.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
There's a book that I really liked. It is The
Collective Regrets of Clover and the girl is a death
doula and she records people's death, their lives and then
their death, and you know, as they're dying, she sits
with them as they die. And she had like three
notebooks and one of them was like advice, the other
one was regrets, and another one was confessions, and so
she just was recording what these people had. And so
(28:34):
I'm very much conscious of like, you're not promised tomorrow,
and so this is like the greatest game I could
ever play or think to play. And my favorite song
that I was doing something else and it was like, well,
what's your favorite song, And it really is Beyonce's I
was here, like I did something, I was creative, I lived,
I loved, I did my best, Like I really tried
(28:55):
to get the most out of this life. And so
I just hope that that's been carried through in this
book of like she would do the same, and just
I would want everybody else to just not be limited
by whatever the world thinks of you or tells you,
or they're they're small limited, they don't have the thing
to really see you and your greatness and your capacity.
They can only have these little labels. But you, in
(29:18):
the miracle that is life, you know, are entitled to
as big a life as you want to have.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
In the outlining of the story, because one of the
major things is in any of the book, whether it's
gonna even if it's an on a cliffhanger, you have
to have an end some kind of there are things
those last couple chapters.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Need to do committed.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know, it's over three hundred pages. Kids, We're like, okay, now,
let's see what's going on.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
What's going on? Right? Follow we follow home girl, her
life and loves and you want to and I'm gonna
not gonna tell the ending. Obviously, how easier hard was it? Not?
The question?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
The question is did you have an ending in the
beginning and did it change as you were writing the book.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Nope. The first chapter with death walking on the page
and then having their conversation and then the last chapter
were the ones that were like the most locked in
from the very beginning. And so I like when stories
where there's echoes, where there's something in the beginning and
then they mentioned it at the end. I love those
like I'm very like, it's my little that's my it. Yeah,
(30:33):
it's the callback. And so if you were to reread it,
you would see at the ending of like the first
part and then the very last line of the book
are very similar. They're almost exact, and so that's just
my personal thing of like, I don't know, that's just
my favorite thing about it. It's just like like how
it echoes back and just like the possibility, like of
(30:56):
whatever the journey will be after this.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
We am reading, I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
So not the epilog. So it's like the very first
and then the one right before the epilogue. You look
and see if you can see the similarities, if you
can see what I was trying to do there.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay, things haen Sante, I think, Okay. The one character
we ever really talked about. We talked about kids and pieces,
but she is in the cover name of the cover's
and it's Nella May Carter, So let's tell me about her.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, it's so funny. It's like her middle name is May,
my daughter's middle name is Made. It's spelled differently. I
have a son named Carter, and so it's just one
of those things where you know, there's Georgia, it's not
really the Carter family, the presidential family, but it was
interesting to do the history of the time. There's a
lot of research, but I there was a lot of backstory.
(31:52):
I had a right to figure out who she was
as she went through the world. So there is like
a whole section about her relationship with her mother and
how are mother and her used to interact and how
they would engage, and like how her and sielests and
how everything just happened. So it's just like there's a
lot of how she came to be being a biracial
(32:13):
the daughter of, you know, the master of the plantation
with another person, how you're kind of in between worlds
and how you're treated, and then depending on your skin
tone as you go through time, how that's impacted as
somebody who you know, with my particular complexion, knowing like
that does play into people's perception of you and how
you have that experience. And so in the story, wanted
(32:35):
to make sure that there was like a great variety
of different skin tones and backgrounds, just to show like
the people's relation to each other. But I think that
Nella's fascination with reading is especially important given like the
codes that weren't in place at the time, but then
became like you can't teach them how to read to
have her leaving her legacy. What is her story was
(32:56):
like very important, like how is she seeing and perceiving
the world and making sure that you know, she's recording
the goodness that she can see and it's not somebody
else telling her story. I think a lot of the
early books from that time are people who are having
their things recorded by somebody else. So I think, like
there's a history of on a judge who was owned
by President Washington, and there's different stories, but just what
(33:19):
would somebody from that time if they were today, what
would they be able to say about the world.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, that's very cool. And that's again where she's born
into a lot of things we're not having for as
black folk, we didn't allow to do a lot of things,
and that she's now again which adds to little layers
I mentioned earlier. I put myself into like, well, now
she's gonna be allowed. He said, you'll be free. Wherever
you go, you will be.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
But then there's an incident that happens to her back
when she was like on the plantation, And it was
one of the things that I added in later because
I can't just try to whitewash history or try to
pretend like it wasn't Like, there's no way she would
have gotten to a certain age without this particular company.
And so it's just like, you know, taking the look
(34:06):
at history and just saying what it is and not
trying to like hide it. But you know, this is
kind of how these things work.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
How is it for?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It is no one just needs to take a left turn.
But it's it's it's a it's a cousin to this conversation.
How are you on this show? I always talk about
we don't ban books. We don't believe in. We don't
believe it. We believe in, we believe in. Diversity means everything,
not just black diversity is everything. How are you counting
this stuff with the current state of people trying to
(34:38):
erase books, certain people, certain author I mean, how are you?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I feel like it's almost the barber It's called the
barbarous strissand effect, Like by trying to hide something, you
make it even bigger than if you had just not
said anything. Like if you hadn't put this thing on
the list, nobody was going to read that book. But
the minute you tell somebody not to do something, I'm
going to read it anyway. I'm going to read it
out a spy. And so I think the band books
(35:02):
to me, this whole situation, to me, always reveals more
about the people who are doing the taking away. Like
if you have to keep again things so small and
have to keep people's minds so narrow, it's for them
to continue to believe a certain thing.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I just believe there's some immutable truths, like truth is truth,
and so you can tell me anything and I'll be like, huh,
I can change my mind. It's going to be okay.
If there's a nuance, this is true. This is true.
But I think the band books are always a way
to assert control in a sort authority, And a little
bit in my next book that I'm writing, it really
(35:36):
is like how artificial that control is, and the people
who are giving these dictakes, y'all really shouldn't be in
charge of anything or nothing, Like wait, wait, hold up,
are we all waking up to the fact that you
shouldn't be in charge of nothing? And I actually can
I can just do what I want to do. Oh okay.
So I feel like that's where I'm seeing the world
(35:58):
kind of evolving. Is like people just remember like, hey,
I have my own agency. You can believe what you
want to believe. I'm going to read what I want
to believe because I think in this book too, the
American dream is a dream. It doesn't really exist for
most people. And so just seeing how people were still
able to like, live and love and be able to
evolve underneath all of these systems, I think is the
(36:20):
real human thing. Like money is not the most important
thing at all, and so it's really about the experiences
and the quality of the life you have.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah, not perfectly. Is this the last week? Cnela? Do
you think or do you think she might show up later?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I don't know anything. If she shows up in another form,
I know she's in an audiobook and she'll be available
on December first. If people want to see the lovely
talents of like Nicole Cash and you know, to see
what she sounds like, and then you know, to be
able to hear death. He's a different narrator as well.
So that's one iteration. I don't know beyond it. The
(37:03):
one that I'm working on as a potential follow up
is not the same world, but it's got like still
black characters kind of doing magical stuff and experiencing the
world and kind of getting through. But yeah, she had
she had a long life.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I don't know if there's that many stories he did, folks,
as of we're recording, Is this the number one Amazon
bestselling Black and African American fantasy fiction.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I's want to make sure I say it again to.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Go number one. I've gone them around a couple of
times on the Amazon charts.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
It's not easy.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
There's a lot of books out there from that get
released every day all the time. So that's a big achievement. Congratulations,
that's the biggest, a big achievement.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
And the first the like being chosen for Amazon First
Reads is like that felt like winning the lottery to
be like being at that stage in that platform. And
so I've been writing since twenty eighteen, like when I
was like, I'm really gonna be a writer, and I
was a little bit different than everybody when it comes
to writing, Like when I look at the writing, I
(38:07):
was always inspired. There was an article about Peter Pan.
The man who wrote Peter Pan gifted the rights to
Peter Pan to a hospital and that person died in
like the nineteen thirties. That hospital is still getting money
in perpetuity based off the Peter Pan's story and so
part of the reason that I'm like, I love stories,
I love writing, and how the stories of people long
(38:27):
since dead are still impacting me in my life. I'm
also interested in what are the big ideas that will
continue to generate interest and then also revenue beyond my
own lifetime, Like what can I create that's big enough that,
you know, my children's children could potentially have like revenue
and some type of thing like from it, or have
their own legacy that you know, my great great grandmama
(38:50):
did something that mattered to somebody at some time. So
I don't know if this will be this particular book,
but this is like Adam, I'm trying. I'm going to
keep creating and putting things out there.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, I'll tell you this book, folks, and for everybody,
but I'm gonna say especially for black women, it's a
great read. You it's a great read, and you're the
center of focus of the story. And that's when I
checked it out to folks. Can I have friends like
what I should? I want to read something or read
something that they can read that they can be relatable to.
And I'm telling you, people think about stuff. When you
(39:21):
read this book, you'll be thinking what would I do
as that situation? Or wheb I was told this? Or
when I talk to death there, how do you responded dead?
Then you know it's I don't trying to say how
do you responded death? It's a character in the book,
but it's it's uh, I said, it's just such a
great read. Thank you, and thank you for being on
the show.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Oh, I hope to be back soon. I see you
have a lot of repeat guests, so I have to
get to you know, get to writing so I can
come back and visit.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Though you are welcome any time, any books come back
on the show Girl anytime, any any any time. I
think all you focus on Amazon, so you have kindall
her back and you said audios comeing out soon or
is it already?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, So you can get it now because of Amazon
First Reads. If you are an Amazon Prime Member or
if you're part of Kindle Unlimited, you can get it
for free if you want it to be your book
or it's like a discount. And the December first is
the official launch date where you can get it here
in America. And then it also is being published in
the UK, so you can get it on December fourth
(40:19):
if you were over the pond watching this and I'm
experiencing that way, but you could also I think it's
target Barnes and Noble at least online. You can get
it those places as well.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Now, do you have fans across the pond, so ask
you up and if they want to talk to you,
you're a website cubcket is your chance to tell them?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Oh yes, So my website is ww dot Brianni wusu
dot com. It's like if you get the book, it's
on the back. It's like in all of my bios
that I try to do all the updates. Like I said,
this is my first interview as an author, and so
I know that one of the things I've talked about
is like coming to book clubs virtually to see, you know,
(40:59):
talking about the character is doing very much the same thing.
And then also encouraging other people to write their own
stories and being able to you know, pull their creations
and making like making you see that this is a
very real thing that you can create with plans and strategy.
So excited just to see where it goes, and you know,
just getting ready for the author life pretty much.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, I'm a fan. I mean.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
And again I always say on these shows, support indie
writers and along aside the big ones you sport them
to you. I have some friends who are big time writers,
but also support the indie writer. Do your best, take
spand your reach of people, because I do these shows
like you, so I can help you with that. Because
there's so many great writers, just you don't know who
(41:45):
they are. And I know sometimes you'll see you go
to a library or bookstores to see of books you know.
But let me tell you a chance. Turn over, read the
back of a baby who knows, look them up onlines
what they're talking about like this, you may learn something
and go. You got to check the book out. So
I will continue support writers and authors and will always
(42:07):
go in between the pages of course with them. Uh
We're on Facebook, I'm everywhere. I'm James a junior everywhere
in TikTok, all of it. So follow uh and I
always try to support anybody on the come up. That's
what we do. We uplift each other. Everyone. Please take
care of yourselves out there. Read a book
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