December 15, 2025 • 28 mins
Presidential Seclusion: The Power of Camp David
In this episode I spoke with Charles Ferguson about his book "Presidential Seclusion: The Power of Camp David".Behind the gates of Camp David—where presidents find solitude, forge diplomacy, and shape history in absolute secrecy.
The Presidential Retreat Camp David is shrouded in mystery, and rightfully so. The hidden retreat atop the Catoctin Mountains is the one place the President, First Family, and invited guests can gather in absolute secrecy for relaxation, rejuvenation, and world-changing decisions. Because of this dedication to privacy, and a desire to maintain the mystery and exclusivity of the last bastion of solitude for the President, few comprehensive accounts exist detailing the storied history of Camp David and the role the “Spirit of Camp David” plays in world affairs.
In this episode I spoke with Charles Ferguson about his book "Presidential Seclusion: The Power of Camp David".Behind the gates of Camp David—where presidents find solitude, forge diplomacy, and shape history in absolute secrecy.
The Presidential Retreat Camp David is shrouded in mystery, and rightfully so. The hidden retreat atop the Catoctin Mountains is the one place the President, First Family, and invited guests can gather in absolute secrecy for relaxation, rejuvenation, and world-changing decisions. Because of this dedication to privacy, and a desire to maintain the mystery and exclusivity of the last bastion of solitude for the President, few comprehensive accounts exist detailing the storied history of Camp David and the role the “Spirit of Camp David” plays in world affairs.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
You'll guess with this Charles Ferguson, and he is here
to talk about his book, Presidential Seclusion, The Power of
Camp David. Charles, welcome to in Between the Pages.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, thanks for having me, Doug.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It's our pleasure. Thank you for spending some time with
us today. And one of the things that we like
to do, the first question we like to ask is
to allow the author to explain in their own words
what this book is about.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, this book is on the face, a history of
Camp David, the secret secluded presidential retreat on top of
a mountain in the Katoctin Mountains of Maryland. But it's
a little bit deeper than that, in that you learn
that history is more than just you know, Columbus the
(01:00):
Ocean Blue in fourteen ninety two, and it's about the
interplay of people and place and how people shape history
and also places shape history, but more importantly that people
that may feel their insignificant have a large impact on history.
And so what you do every day changes history. And
(01:22):
you may think it's a small thing, but in reality
it's something larger than you can imagine ten fifteen, twenty
years down the road.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Absolutely, you know, and one thing that I think a
lot of people have heard of Camp David, or they'll
hear it on the news that the President went to
Camp David, et cetera. But I'm not sure that really
people truly understand what Camp David is. If that makes
sense to.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
You, Oh yeah, because there's very little information out or
compiled information about it. It's so for the listeners, it's
the presidential retreat, is the official president's retreat, Camp David,
and it's a place for the president to get away.
It's the only place in the world where the president
(02:09):
can go and be themselves in isolation with their friends
and their family. If they want to work up there,
they can, but it's definitely the only place away from
the public eye the president can get. Even if the
president goes to their own personal residents, usually the press
follows them around or it's close by. There's no press
(02:30):
at Camp David. The only way you get up there
is to be selected to work there or to be
invited by the president to use the facility. And so
it has all the amenities you would expect for a
five star resort. There's skeet shooting, you do archery, there's
swimming pool, there's pool tables, movie theater, a bar, anything
(02:55):
the president needs to enter, a bowling alley, can't forget that,
just anything you would want to have to relax and
spend some time away from the pressures of the office.
It's there. As much as the president can get away
from the office, sure as the job follows in twenty
four to seven, they never get a vacation, right, this
(03:16):
is the one place where they can feel as normal
as a human being as possible in the job that
they're in.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah. Absolutely, you know it's really interesting. You know, I
know that when you start out in the book you
talk about FDR and how he kind of selected this
and how the history started with FDR with Camp David,
but really presidents of always I remember Lincoln basically had
a summer home outside of Washington. That it was a
(03:47):
place that was kind of needed because of the pressure
of the job to kind of get away from the
grind of Washington for lack of a better word, and
like you said, kind of be able to let their
hair down and let them be human for just a
few few days.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Right, And it's it's not just to get away from
the job, it's to get away from the heat of
d C. Yes, and so you know, most presidents have
had some kind of summer retreat that they escape to,
and traditionally it's been in August. You know, the hottest
part your viewers listeners may or may not know that
(04:26):
d C was built on a swamp. Right, It's very hot,
very humid, the elevation is very low, so summer there
can be insufferable and over time, the most presidents escape
for a couple of weeks in August just to get
away from the heat and to take that as like
I said, not their vacation, but just a break from
(04:48):
the pressure of Washington. And Lincoln did have a house
away from Washington, but he also stayed at the Old
Soldiers Home in the Petwork neighborhood of d C. And
so he had Hyde Park North Warm Springs in the
mountains of Georgia the other one you mentioned. But most
presidents have a second residence they get away. To the
(05:12):
benefit of Camp David is it's somewhere they can go
year round. Quickly, they can just quickly escape, not for
a long or they could do a long period time
if they wanted to, but for if they a quick
weekend get away or a quick business meeting with a
world leader. They can have it there at Camp David,
away from the the prim as of the press.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, you know what's the interesting when
you started out the book in chapter one, you were
talking about how it was selected. FDR has basically some
criteria and there were several different selections, and it was
kind of kind of get the impression that he really
(05:54):
had to put some thought into where he wanted this
quote unquote Camp David. Obviously it wasn't named Camp Nave
until years later, but he was trying to find that
perfect spot. I kind of get the impression for future presidents.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, I don't know if Roosevelt was really thinking about
future presidents when he was lucky. So the criteria that
he set out, the broad criteria that he gave to
his advisors when they started looking for the place, was
elevation of eighteen hundred foot or higher for his asthma
within a three hour drive of Washington, d C. Because
(06:31):
it was the wartime, Roosevelt was asking people to ration
fuel and food items and he didn't want to just
the politics of not abiding by that would look bad.
And then somewhere that was secure from prying eyes and
also physically secure to keep the president safe. And he
just wanted a wartime retreat because he couldn't go out
(06:52):
on the yachts like he wanted to, and he couldn't
go up to Hyde Parker down to warm Springs as
often as he wanted without looking in the press. So
I'm not sure that Roosevelt really was expecting others to
use it because he never even told Truman.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Well, I was getting ready to say that's another point
that you bring up in the book that Truman, but
in all fairness to Truman, Roosevelt never really told him
much of anything.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Correct, And that's also a sign of the times. And
the vice presidency was different in nineteen forty five than
it is now. It still was a heartbeat away from
the presidency, is Truman would find out. But you picked
the vice president more for ceremonial reasons. They really spent
(07:41):
most of their time at their office in the Capitol,
not in the West Wing. So yeah, so Truman was
in the dark for a lot of items of the presidency.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah, the list goes on and on, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
But so because of I think if Roosevelt had wanted
it to, if he had have selected it for more
than himself, he would have been more open about it
to Truman, and possibly even more open that he even
had picked a retreat. They Roosevelt's advisors and even Roosevelt.
(08:16):
When Merryman Smith was an AP reporter found out about
the retreat and reported it, there were serious discussions whether
or not to charge Merriman under the Espionage Act. So
if you're thinking future used, you're probably not going after
reporters for the Espionage Act for something like that.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Probably, right. Yeah, Now that's fair in terms of that,
But you know, you also talk about all the amenities
that was at Camp David. And the other thing that
I thought was really interesting that you talk about in
the book is a lot of presidents and kriptment if
I'm wrong, if they're not using it, they allowed their
(08:56):
staff to use it kind of as a getaway and
then a retreat as well.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well, it does depend on the president. That was a
tradition that Truman started because Truman did not like Shangrilat,
which is what the Camp David was called before iower,
So Truman rarely went up there. He went up ten
times in eight years. I talk about it that he's
a Missouri boy wants wide open spaces, apple Watchian mountains, forests,
(09:23):
dense East coast forrest was not his life. He did visit,
but yeah, it wasn't his cup of tea. So he
did it start inviting his advisors and friends up and
the staff at the White House to use the facility
because he realized, Hey, if this is something I can use.
If I'm not going to use it, I might as
well open it up to the people that I work
(09:45):
around me. And it just depends. Because Ronald Reagan, who
visited more than anyone else, he visited one hundred and
eighty nine times and his eight years in office, he
didn't let anybody come up even with him. It was
just basically him and Nancy his family rarely got to
use it. Only three foreign leaders visited. No one. None
of the foreign leaders got to spend the night. A
(10:07):
sign of the importance of Margaret Thatcher. She was invited
to Camp David twice lunch both times. So Reagan had
just locked it completely down and other presidents were using
it so much, like George HW. Bush one hundred and
twenty four times in four years, there really wasn't time
(10:28):
for other people to use it. So it just depends
on the president and how they view what Camp David
can bring them or how Camp David can benefit them.
If they've got a house that they go to that's
more comfortable and relaxing for them, they're going to go
there and maybe let the staff for Congress or people
(10:50):
you know that the President wants to impress, let them
use Camp David while the president's not there, because even
if the president's not there, it's still a pretty rare
and special invitation to get invited inside the gates.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, and you talk also about how every
president's kind of made their own mark on Camp David.
You know, you started with Truman. He cut down some
trees so he could see the valley, and then I think,
if I remember crrically, Best kind of warmed up a
little bit more to Camp David after some changes were made.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Swarmed up a little bit. Their daughter probably has the
most scathing remarks about Camp David and her memoirs she
taught called an adul drear replace right. I think there
was a visit over July fourth, one year. I can't
remember which year of the Truman presidency that Best got
to come up and that really warmed her up to
(11:52):
it because she got to see Camp David and kind
of its best splendor, the dense foliage. It's about degrees
cooler on top of the mountain with the breeze than
down in DC. So the weather cooperated for that visit.
But it's still nothing they could do could really overcome
(12:13):
that bad first impression that Truman and Bess had for
the first visit in nineteen forty five.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Sure, and then you know, obviously Eisenhower renamed Camp David
for his grandson in terms of that, was there any
controversy or obviously, you know, he's a president, he can
kind of do what he wants. But did it roughly
any feathers when they made the official change name change.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
No, because Eisenhower's plan was that his successor would change
the name anyways. So he had named the two yachts
after his granddaughters saw that he had not named anything
to honor his grandson, and so he realized that there
was a retreat they called it a camp. At that time,
(13:02):
there was a street up in the mountains that looked
a little bit like a boy scout camp, and it
hit to say, I'll name this camp after my grandsid,
Camp David. And then when Kennedy came into office after Eisenhower,
Kennedy started renamed the Odds after his family members. But
unfortunately the assassination, you know, the all the what ifs
(13:25):
of the Kennedy presidency, and this is another one. What
if he had lived longer, would he have changed the
name to Camp Jack, you know, or one of the
other short or Camp Caroline? Yeah, absolutely all we know,
so there's there's no way of knowing. And the assassination
(13:48):
of Kennedy played probably the key role in the the
name Camp David staying because of a presidential an administration
went through without change the name, and it just felt
like it wasn't needed to change the name. Camp David
was a good name, and it just kind of stuck,
and it stuck. And then obviously after the Camp David,
(14:11):
of course, there was no way it was ever going
to get changed because you have a major peach Treaty
of Middle East named after this location.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, it was probably going to be too hard to
change history at that point. You know, you also talk
about HW Bush and at Christmas that and I had
heard this story before, where you know, he was very
sensitive to his security and the staff, and instead of
going up to Maine Kenny Bunkport, he really decided to
(14:41):
kind of stay in the Washington, DC area so his
staff and security detail could spend the holidays with their families.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Right, And that's when you think about it. So Camp David,
when the president's not in residence, it's called Naval Support
Facility Thermont. It's a fully manned, active naval base, so
there's always people there. Security is always in place. So
by choosing to not travel to Kenny Bunkport, he wouldn't
(15:10):
need a full Secret Service detail around him because you know,
some of the security is already taken care of. The
White House staff could take a break because they're working
all the time. The staff at Camp David's on duty,
so it's already made. Yeah, there was already made place
for the president to celebrate Christmas without taxing more people
(15:35):
and actually allowed more people time off with their family,
especially those that were surrounding the president. Twenty four to seven,
and that plan of spending the Christmases up there carried
over into George W. Bush's term, and so George W.
Bush spent twelve Christmases at Camp David all four with
his dad at all eight of his own, and so
(15:58):
he's he definitely has the record for the most number
of services at Camp David.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
That's awesome. Well, Charles, anything surprised you during the writing
and the research of this book.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
The one and this is basically because I'm a space nerd,
I stumbled across in the records. I stumbled across like
an appointment calendar or a schedule that had the astronauts
from Apollo thirteen. And I pulled the thread a little
(16:36):
bit and Nixon invited up the astronauts from Apollo thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
and sixteen. Obviously, it's most likely because of the press
and the hubbub around Apollo thirteen that might have spurred
the first invitation, and then he continued it. The President
(16:56):
didn't come up, but he gave the astronauts and their
wives the use of the facility for two days, so
they would fly to d C at Andrews Air Force Base.
Through the press that a company their return in DC
went to Camp David, spent a couple of days at
Camp David, flew back to Andrews or I don't know
(17:19):
if they came in a helicopter, or drove, but they
made it their way to Andrews to catch their flight
back to Houston. So that for me, that was the
most surprising story that I found, just because I've never
heard that, and I never realized that that such a
great honor was bestowed to these astronauts, especially after coming
(17:42):
back from such a long voyage. I was actually surprised
it didn't happen for Apollo eleven. You know that historic?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, very very very interesting, and like you said,
Kim David is not only a retreat a getaway, but
it also had some very historical events that took place
the cord as we mentioned in the Carter administration, what
(18:10):
about the Clinton administration and some others any shed some
line stories there.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, So most every administration has had some kind of
event that has occurred or made plans to have a
big event happened at Camp David. Just a few of
the highlights. FDR. The first foreign leader to visit was
during FDR's time, and I was Winston Churchill. The legend
(18:39):
is that on the front porch of one of the cabins,
he set beside or FDR set beside Churchill and they
planned how they were going to retake Europe. Churchill wanted
to go through the soft underbelly of Europe through Italy,
and Roosevelt preferred the full frontal assault across the Channel.
Both men got their desire. Churchill was just first with
(19:02):
the Sicily campaign. Nixon brought his advisors in nineteen seventy one. Secretly,
one of the beauties of Camp David is because of
the privacy, seclusion, isolation, you can bring people in and
not really know it right. And they decided to come
off the gold standard and float the dollar at Camp David.
(19:25):
You mentioned Clinton. He attempted a piece deal between Israel
and Palestine in two thousand. It failed. I don't I
think it was destined to fail no matter what. Camp
David was the best place to give them a shot. Sure,
and then there's also some the celebrities that come up.
(19:48):
And when the celebrities, you can't The only way you're
going to find out a celebrities there is if somebody
tells you they they're especially the celebrity. But a few
of the ones that have come up. Arnold Schwarzenegger was
good friends with George hw Bush and came up their guest.
I always like tell everybody. One of the big celebrities
that has been there, because when I started working there
(20:11):
in twenty eighteen, the staff was still talking about it
was Beyonce and her thirty fourth birthday party was held
at Camp David at the invitation of President Obama. So
there's what I love about the stories of Camp David
is you have the world leaders, you have these world
changing events, but you also have pop culture.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah. Well, you even mentioned in the book that there
was a lot of I think it was the Bushes
that brought it in a lot of athletes, but they
brought them into Camp David because they didn't want to
make it look like two things. One the athletes didn't
have to necessarily say they were Republican or a Democrat
(20:53):
in fairness. But number two, you could be yourself a
little bit, you know, and it was looking like they
were using them for political leverage. They could just be
more friends.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, and that's something Barbara Bush wrote about in her memoirs. Unfortunately,
I kind of wish George H. W. Bush had made
the decision to write memoirs. Yes he did not, but
his decision, but Barbara Bush's memoirs, she did talk about
that they invited Andre Agassy, the tennis star up other individuals. Famously,
(21:33):
for any country music fans, George Strait was invited up
and they would watch. They watched the Cowboys play. They
stayed a little bit later on Sunday after church to
watch the Cowboy games. That pretty sure that one was
hw Bush's last visit to Camp David. They stayed a
(21:54):
little longer and got to watch the Cowboys play that afternoon.
But even if they can't invite somebody up, sports plays
a role during the Camp David accords, the Muhammad Ali
I think it was Ali Spinks had a fight and
President Carter called Ali from Camp David to congratulate him
(22:17):
on the win.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
That's awesome, that's awesome. Well, I know we're getting close
here on time, but one last question before we lynch
you go, is here we are in twenty twenty five
Camp David is kind of like we started the conversation.
People know it, but they don't know about Camp David.
Does that surprise you with the way social media and
(22:41):
the Internet and here we are on twenty twenty five
that it's still and this is going to be my words,
still kind of a secret.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yes and no, Okay, if you look at it from
the fact that the ubiquitousness of social media and how
everybody wants to post things twenty four to seven, you
would expect to see a lot more. However, the administrations
throughout the years have done such a good job of
(23:13):
preserving the privacy of the First family when they're up there,
that you're not going to get to see a lot
of photos or videos. They're out there famously. You know,
if you want to look back in the sixties, you
can see a wonderful video of Caroline Kennedy riding her
pony Macaroni at Camp David. But that's the allure of
(23:40):
Camp David and the privacy and the secrecy. I don't
think the president needs to tell their guests how important
it is to just keep your experience to yourself, and
everyone seems to honor that. It's rare that you'll find photos. Occasionally,
(24:00):
they'll pop up. Most recently that I can remember is
during President Biden one of his visits, one of the
granddaughters snapped a photo and put on Instagram of him
playing Mario Kart. Yeah, so you'll get snippets, But most
people that go to Camp David, they realize just how
(24:20):
special it is, sure, and they don't want to ruin
the mystique in the aura and the specialness, because if
everybody knows about it and can be like, oh, that's
the big deal, I've seen it online, well, seeing it
online is not the same as being there in person
and feeling the spirit of Camp David kind of soak
(24:42):
through you and embed itself in you. So I think
that's why you're not going to see a lot in
twenty twenty five, because the guests that go up there
realize how special and magical the place is and they
don't want to ruin that.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Sure, it's just one of those unspoken rules.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It is unspoken, but it's it's one of the ones
where you may not even need to speak it because
everyone understands the magnitude of and the weight of this
special invitation you've been given, and you don't want to
break the trust of the president right who trusted you
(25:24):
to come up there and enjoy it and spend time
and be yourself and let the all the walls we
put up around ourselves every day come down, break those down,
let those fall down. And you know, it's oddly enough,
it was Nikita Krushchev who coined the phrase the spirit
of Camp David, you know, the Soviet premiere, and I'll
(25:47):
use it now. Is it that spirit of Camp David
is in everybody that that visits, and everybody that visits
helped shape and form the spirit of Camp David. And
it's that interplay of of place and and people that
affect history.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's but I'm just going to say, it's refreshing to
know that there are some things that are still sacred
slash secret, and that both sides, Democrat and Republican can
agree that this is a place that the president gets
to go and be him or herself. We may have
(26:26):
a vice president excuse me, a female president one day
that they can go and be themselves and like you said,
just be human for for a few days.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Right. I think you mentioned an important part is that
it is bipartisan or non partisan. You know, it's a
it's a non partisan location, an institution that both parties
get to to participate in, and a lot of times
(27:00):
party one vite members of the other party up during
their administration to not to brag, but to just say, hey, like,
let's work through this together. The cameras are off and
you could be you, I'll be me and we'll figure
this out. That's happened throughout the eighty three years of
Camp David's history. So it's a it's a special place
(27:22):
that we probably need more of those, yes, but it's
hard because there aren't many places where the president can
go and be themselves out of the public eye, even
their homes, even surrounding their homes, like you know, if
you go to I take Biden for example, because he
(27:44):
famously you know, goes out and tries to get ice cream,
right if he can't go get an ice cream in
his hometown without people following around, even now after leaving
the presidency, but when he's in the presidency, there's this
a mob around him and everybody's like, oh, this is
some kind of ploy. He's like, the man just wanted
ice cream.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Or he just wanted to go sit by the beach,
you know, and sometimes that's just very peaceful to collect
your thoughts in terms of that. Well, Charles, thank you
so much for coming on and to our listeners, what
a fascinating book. Like I said, I have heard of
Camp David and knew a little bit about it, but
this is a deep dive if you will kind of
(28:24):
get a little bit of an insight of the power,
just what power Camp David has, So please go out
and get a copy of Presidential Seclusion, The Power of
Camp David. Again, Charles, thank you so much for coming
on spending a few minutes with us today to share
your experience with Camp David with us.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's been a pleasure, Doug, so thanks for having me well.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Thank you and
You'll guess with this Charles Ferguson, and he is here
to talk about his book, Presidential Seclusion, The Power of
Camp David. Charles, welcome to in Between the Pages.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, thanks for having me, Doug.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It's our pleasure. Thank you for spending some time with
us today. And one of the things that we like
to do, the first question we like to ask is
to allow the author to explain in their own words
what this book is about.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, this book is on the face, a history of
Camp David, the secret secluded presidential retreat on top of
a mountain in the Katoctin Mountains of Maryland. But it's
a little bit deeper than that, in that you learn
that history is more than just you know, Columbus the
(01:00):
Ocean Blue in fourteen ninety two, and it's about the
interplay of people and place and how people shape history
and also places shape history, but more importantly that people
that may feel their insignificant have a large impact on history.
And so what you do every day changes history. And
(01:22):
you may think it's a small thing, but in reality
it's something larger than you can imagine ten fifteen, twenty
years down the road.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Absolutely, you know, and one thing that I think a
lot of people have heard of Camp David, or they'll
hear it on the news that the President went to
Camp David, et cetera. But I'm not sure that really
people truly understand what Camp David is. If that makes
sense to.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
You, Oh yeah, because there's very little information out or
compiled information about it. It's so for the listeners, it's
the presidential retreat, is the official president's retreat, Camp David,
and it's a place for the president to get away.
It's the only place in the world where the president
(02:09):
can go and be themselves in isolation with their friends
and their family. If they want to work up there,
they can, but it's definitely the only place away from
the public eye the president can get. Even if the
president goes to their own personal residents, usually the press
follows them around or it's close by. There's no press
(02:30):
at Camp David. The only way you get up there
is to be selected to work there or to be
invited by the president to use the facility. And so
it has all the amenities you would expect for a
five star resort. There's skeet shooting, you do archery, there's
swimming pool, there's pool tables, movie theater, a bar, anything
(02:55):
the president needs to enter, a bowling alley, can't forget that,
just anything you would want to have to relax and
spend some time away from the pressures of the office.
It's there. As much as the president can get away
from the office, sure as the job follows in twenty
four to seven, they never get a vacation, right, this
(03:16):
is the one place where they can feel as normal
as a human being as possible in the job that
they're in.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah. Absolutely, you know it's really interesting. You know, I
know that when you start out in the book you
talk about FDR and how he kind of selected this
and how the history started with FDR with Camp David,
but really presidents of always I remember Lincoln basically had
a summer home outside of Washington. That it was a
(03:47):
place that was kind of needed because of the pressure
of the job to kind of get away from the
grind of Washington for lack of a better word, and
like you said, kind of be able to let their
hair down and let them be human for just a
few few days.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Right, And it's it's not just to get away from
the job, it's to get away from the heat of
d C. Yes, and so you know, most presidents have
had some kind of summer retreat that they escape to,
and traditionally it's been in August. You know, the hottest
part your viewers listeners may or may not know that
(04:26):
d C was built on a swamp. Right, It's very hot,
very humid, the elevation is very low, so summer there
can be insufferable and over time, the most presidents escape
for a couple of weeks in August just to get
away from the heat and to take that as like
I said, not their vacation, but just a break from
(04:48):
the pressure of Washington. And Lincoln did have a house
away from Washington, but he also stayed at the Old
Soldiers Home in the Petwork neighborhood of d C. And
so he had Hyde Park North Warm Springs in the
mountains of Georgia the other one you mentioned. But most
presidents have a second residence they get away. To the
(05:12):
benefit of Camp David is it's somewhere they can go
year round. Quickly, they can just quickly escape, not for
a long or they could do a long period time
if they wanted to, but for if they a quick
weekend get away or a quick business meeting with a
world leader. They can have it there at Camp David,
away from the the prim as of the press.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, you know what's the interesting when
you started out the book in chapter one, you were
talking about how it was selected. FDR has basically some
criteria and there were several different selections, and it was
kind of kind of get the impression that he really
(05:54):
had to put some thought into where he wanted this
quote unquote Camp David. Obviously it wasn't named Camp Nave
until years later, but he was trying to find that
perfect spot. I kind of get the impression for future presidents.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, I don't know if Roosevelt was really thinking about
future presidents when he was lucky. So the criteria that
he set out, the broad criteria that he gave to
his advisors when they started looking for the place, was
elevation of eighteen hundred foot or higher for his asthma
within a three hour drive of Washington, d C. Because
(06:31):
it was the wartime, Roosevelt was asking people to ration
fuel and food items and he didn't want to just
the politics of not abiding by that would look bad.
And then somewhere that was secure from prying eyes and
also physically secure to keep the president safe. And he
just wanted a wartime retreat because he couldn't go out
(06:52):
on the yachts like he wanted to, and he couldn't
go up to Hyde Parker down to warm Springs as
often as he wanted without looking in the press. So
I'm not sure that Roosevelt really was expecting others to
use it because he never even told Truman.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Well, I was getting ready to say that's another point
that you bring up in the book that Truman, but
in all fairness to Truman, Roosevelt never really told him
much of anything.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Correct, And that's also a sign of the times. And
the vice presidency was different in nineteen forty five than
it is now. It still was a heartbeat away from
the presidency, is Truman would find out. But you picked
the vice president more for ceremonial reasons. They really spent
(07:41):
most of their time at their office in the Capitol,
not in the West Wing. So yeah, so Truman was
in the dark for a lot of items of the presidency.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah, the list goes on and on, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
But so because of I think if Roosevelt had wanted
it to, if he had have selected it for more
than himself, he would have been more open about it
to Truman, and possibly even more open that he even
had picked a retreat. They Roosevelt's advisors and even Roosevelt.
(08:16):
When Merryman Smith was an AP reporter found out about
the retreat and reported it, there were serious discussions whether
or not to charge Merriman under the Espionage Act. So
if you're thinking future used, you're probably not going after
reporters for the Espionage Act for something like that.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Probably, right. Yeah, Now that's fair in terms of that,
But you know, you also talk about all the amenities
that was at Camp David. And the other thing that
I thought was really interesting that you talk about in
the book is a lot of presidents and kriptment if
I'm wrong, if they're not using it, they allowed their
(08:56):
staff to use it kind of as a getaway and
then a retreat as well.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well, it does depend on the president. That was a
tradition that Truman started because Truman did not like Shangrilat,
which is what the Camp David was called before iower,
So Truman rarely went up there. He went up ten
times in eight years. I talk about it that he's
a Missouri boy wants wide open spaces, apple Watchian mountains, forests,
(09:23):
dense East coast forrest was not his life. He did visit,
but yeah, it wasn't his cup of tea. So he
did it start inviting his advisors and friends up and
the staff at the White House to use the facility
because he realized, Hey, if this is something I can use.
If I'm not going to use it, I might as
well open it up to the people that I work
(09:45):
around me. And it just depends. Because Ronald Reagan, who
visited more than anyone else, he visited one hundred and
eighty nine times and his eight years in office, he
didn't let anybody come up even with him. It was
just basically him and Nancy his family rarely got to
use it. Only three foreign leaders visited. No one. None
of the foreign leaders got to spend the night. A
(10:07):
sign of the importance of Margaret Thatcher. She was invited
to Camp David twice lunch both times. So Reagan had
just locked it completely down and other presidents were using
it so much, like George HW. Bush one hundred and
twenty four times in four years, there really wasn't time
(10:28):
for other people to use it. So it just depends
on the president and how they view what Camp David
can bring them or how Camp David can benefit them.
If they've got a house that they go to that's
more comfortable and relaxing for them, they're going to go
there and maybe let the staff for Congress or people
(10:50):
you know that the President wants to impress, let them
use Camp David while the president's not there, because even
if the president's not there, it's still a pretty rare
and special invitation to get invited inside the gates.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, and you talk also about how every
president's kind of made their own mark on Camp David.
You know, you started with Truman. He cut down some
trees so he could see the valley, and then I think,
if I remember crrically, Best kind of warmed up a
little bit more to Camp David after some changes were made.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Swarmed up a little bit. Their daughter probably has the
most scathing remarks about Camp David and her memoirs she
taught called an adul drear replace right. I think there
was a visit over July fourth, one year. I can't
remember which year of the Truman presidency that Best got
to come up and that really warmed her up to
(11:52):
it because she got to see Camp David and kind
of its best splendor, the dense foliage. It's about degrees
cooler on top of the mountain with the breeze than
down in DC. So the weather cooperated for that visit.
But it's still nothing they could do could really overcome
(12:13):
that bad first impression that Truman and Bess had for
the first visit in nineteen forty five.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Sure, and then you know, obviously Eisenhower renamed Camp David
for his grandson in terms of that, was there any
controversy or obviously, you know, he's a president, he can
kind of do what he wants. But did it roughly
any feathers when they made the official change name change.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
No, because Eisenhower's plan was that his successor would change
the name anyways. So he had named the two yachts
after his granddaughters saw that he had not named anything
to honor his grandson, and so he realized that there
was a retreat they called it a camp. At that time,
(13:02):
there was a street up in the mountains that looked
a little bit like a boy scout camp, and it
hit to say, I'll name this camp after my grandsid,
Camp David. And then when Kennedy came into office after Eisenhower,
Kennedy started renamed the Odds after his family members. But
unfortunately the assassination, you know, the all the what ifs
(13:25):
of the Kennedy presidency, and this is another one. What
if he had lived longer, would he have changed the
name to Camp Jack, you know, or one of the
other short or Camp Caroline? Yeah, absolutely all we know,
so there's there's no way of knowing. And the assassination
(13:48):
of Kennedy played probably the key role in the the
name Camp David staying because of a presidential an administration
went through without change the name, and it just felt
like it wasn't needed to change the name. Camp David
was a good name, and it just kind of stuck,
and it stuck. And then obviously after the Camp David,
(14:11):
of course, there was no way it was ever going
to get changed because you have a major peach Treaty
of Middle East named after this location.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, it was probably going to be too hard to
change history at that point. You know, you also talk
about HW Bush and at Christmas that and I had
heard this story before, where you know, he was very
sensitive to his security and the staff, and instead of
going up to Maine Kenny Bunkport, he really decided to
(14:41):
kind of stay in the Washington, DC area so his
staff and security detail could spend the holidays with their families.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Right, And that's when you think about it. So Camp David,
when the president's not in residence, it's called Naval Support
Facility Thermont. It's a fully manned, active naval base, so
there's always people there. Security is always in place. So
by choosing to not travel to Kenny Bunkport, he wouldn't
(15:10):
need a full Secret Service detail around him because you know,
some of the security is already taken care of. The
White House staff could take a break because they're working
all the time. The staff at Camp David's on duty,
so it's already made. Yeah, there was already made place
for the president to celebrate Christmas without taxing more people
(15:35):
and actually allowed more people time off with their family,
especially those that were surrounding the president. Twenty four to seven,
and that plan of spending the Christmases up there carried
over into George W. Bush's term, and so George W.
Bush spent twelve Christmases at Camp David all four with
his dad at all eight of his own, and so
(15:58):
he's he definitely has the record for the most number
of services at Camp David.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
That's awesome. Well, Charles, anything surprised you during the writing
and the research of this book.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
The one and this is basically because I'm a space nerd,
I stumbled across in the records. I stumbled across like
an appointment calendar or a schedule that had the astronauts
from Apollo thirteen. And I pulled the thread a little
(16:36):
bit and Nixon invited up the astronauts from Apollo thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
and sixteen. Obviously, it's most likely because of the press
and the hubbub around Apollo thirteen that might have spurred
the first invitation, and then he continued it. The President
(16:56):
didn't come up, but he gave the astronauts and their
wives the use of the facility for two days, so
they would fly to d C at Andrews Air Force Base.
Through the press that a company their return in DC
went to Camp David, spent a couple of days at
Camp David, flew back to Andrews or I don't know
(17:19):
if they came in a helicopter, or drove, but they
made it their way to Andrews to catch their flight
back to Houston. So that for me, that was the
most surprising story that I found, just because I've never
heard that, and I never realized that that such a
great honor was bestowed to these astronauts, especially after coming
(17:42):
back from such a long voyage. I was actually surprised
it didn't happen for Apollo eleven. You know that historic?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, very very very interesting, and like you said,
Kim David is not only a retreat a getaway, but
it also had some very historical events that took place
the cord as we mentioned in the Carter administration, what
(18:10):
about the Clinton administration and some others any shed some
line stories there.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, So most every administration has had some kind of
event that has occurred or made plans to have a
big event happened at Camp David. Just a few of
the highlights. FDR. The first foreign leader to visit was
during FDR's time, and I was Winston Churchill. The legend
(18:39):
is that on the front porch of one of the cabins,
he set beside or FDR set beside Churchill and they
planned how they were going to retake Europe. Churchill wanted
to go through the soft underbelly of Europe through Italy,
and Roosevelt preferred the full frontal assault across the Channel.
Both men got their desire. Churchill was just first with
(19:02):
the Sicily campaign. Nixon brought his advisors in nineteen seventy one. Secretly,
one of the beauties of Camp David is because of
the privacy, seclusion, isolation, you can bring people in and
not really know it right. And they decided to come
off the gold standard and float the dollar at Camp David.
(19:25):
You mentioned Clinton. He attempted a piece deal between Israel
and Palestine in two thousand. It failed. I don't I
think it was destined to fail no matter what. Camp
David was the best place to give them a shot. Sure,
and then there's also some the celebrities that come up.
(19:48):
And when the celebrities, you can't The only way you're
going to find out a celebrities there is if somebody
tells you they they're especially the celebrity. But a few
of the ones that have come up. Arnold Schwarzenegger was
good friends with George hw Bush and came up their guest.
I always like tell everybody. One of the big celebrities
that has been there, because when I started working there
(20:11):
in twenty eighteen, the staff was still talking about it
was Beyonce and her thirty fourth birthday party was held
at Camp David at the invitation of President Obama. So
there's what I love about the stories of Camp David
is you have the world leaders, you have these world
changing events, but you also have pop culture.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah. Well, you even mentioned in the book that there
was a lot of I think it was the Bushes
that brought it in a lot of athletes, but they
brought them into Camp David because they didn't want to
make it look like two things. One the athletes didn't
have to necessarily say they were Republican or a Democrat
(20:53):
in fairness. But number two, you could be yourself a
little bit, you know, and it was looking like they
were using them for political leverage. They could just be
more friends.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, and that's something Barbara Bush wrote about in her memoirs. Unfortunately,
I kind of wish George H. W. Bush had made
the decision to write memoirs. Yes he did not, but
his decision, but Barbara Bush's memoirs, she did talk about
that they invited Andre Agassy, the tennis star up other individuals. Famously,
(21:33):
for any country music fans, George Strait was invited up
and they would watch. They watched the Cowboys play. They
stayed a little bit later on Sunday after church to
watch the Cowboy games. That pretty sure that one was
hw Bush's last visit to Camp David. They stayed a
(21:54):
little longer and got to watch the Cowboys play that afternoon.
But even if they can't invite somebody up, sports plays
a role during the Camp David accords, the Muhammad Ali
I think it was Ali Spinks had a fight and
President Carter called Ali from Camp David to congratulate him
(22:17):
on the win.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
That's awesome, that's awesome. Well, I know we're getting close
here on time, but one last question before we lynch
you go, is here we are in twenty twenty five
Camp David is kind of like we started the conversation.
People know it, but they don't know about Camp David.
Does that surprise you with the way social media and
(22:41):
the Internet and here we are on twenty twenty five
that it's still and this is going to be my words,
still kind of a secret.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yes and no, Okay, if you look at it from
the fact that the ubiquitousness of social media and how
everybody wants to post things twenty four to seven, you
would expect to see a lot more. However, the administrations
throughout the years have done such a good job of
(23:13):
preserving the privacy of the First family when they're up there,
that you're not going to get to see a lot
of photos or videos. They're out there famously. You know,
if you want to look back in the sixties, you
can see a wonderful video of Caroline Kennedy riding her
pony Macaroni at Camp David. But that's the allure of
(23:40):
Camp David and the privacy and the secrecy. I don't
think the president needs to tell their guests how important
it is to just keep your experience to yourself, and
everyone seems to honor that. It's rare that you'll find photos. Occasionally,
(24:00):
they'll pop up. Most recently that I can remember is
during President Biden one of his visits, one of the
granddaughters snapped a photo and put on Instagram of him
playing Mario Kart. Yeah, so you'll get snippets, But most
people that go to Camp David, they realize just how
(24:20):
special it is, sure, and they don't want to ruin
the mystique in the aura and the specialness, because if
everybody knows about it and can be like, oh, that's
the big deal, I've seen it online, well, seeing it
online is not the same as being there in person
and feeling the spirit of Camp David kind of soak
(24:42):
through you and embed itself in you. So I think
that's why you're not going to see a lot in
twenty twenty five, because the guests that go up there
realize how special and magical the place is and they
don't want to ruin that.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Sure, it's just one of those unspoken rules.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It is unspoken, but it's it's one of the ones
where you may not even need to speak it because
everyone understands the magnitude of and the weight of this
special invitation you've been given, and you don't want to
break the trust of the president right who trusted you
(25:24):
to come up there and enjoy it and spend time
and be yourself and let the all the walls we
put up around ourselves every day come down, break those down,
let those fall down. And you know, it's oddly enough,
it was Nikita Krushchev who coined the phrase the spirit
of Camp David, you know, the Soviet premiere, and I'll
(25:47):
use it now. Is it that spirit of Camp David
is in everybody that that visits, and everybody that visits
helped shape and form the spirit of Camp David. And
it's that interplay of of place and and people that
affect history.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's but I'm just going to say, it's refreshing to
know that there are some things that are still sacred
slash secret, and that both sides, Democrat and Republican can
agree that this is a place that the president gets
to go and be him or herself. We may have
(26:26):
a vice president excuse me, a female president one day
that they can go and be themselves and like you said,
just be human for for a few days.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Right. I think you mentioned an important part is that
it is bipartisan or non partisan. You know, it's a
it's a non partisan location, an institution that both parties
get to to participate in, and a lot of times
(27:00):
party one vite members of the other party up during
their administration to not to brag, but to just say, hey, like,
let's work through this together. The cameras are off and
you could be you, I'll be me and we'll figure
this out. That's happened throughout the eighty three years of
Camp David's history. So it's a it's a special place
(27:22):
that we probably need more of those, yes, but it's
hard because there aren't many places where the president can
go and be themselves out of the public eye, even
their homes, even surrounding their homes, like you know, if
you go to I take Biden for example, because he
(27:44):
famously you know, goes out and tries to get ice cream,
right if he can't go get an ice cream in
his hometown without people following around, even now after leaving
the presidency, but when he's in the presidency, there's this
a mob around him and everybody's like, oh, this is
some kind of ploy. He's like, the man just wanted
ice cream.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Or he just wanted to go sit by the beach,
you know, and sometimes that's just very peaceful to collect
your thoughts in terms of that. Well, Charles, thank you
so much for coming on and to our listeners, what
a fascinating book. Like I said, I have heard of
Camp David and knew a little bit about it, but
this is a deep dive if you will kind of
(28:24):
get a little bit of an insight of the power,
just what power Camp David has, So please go out
and get a copy of Presidential Seclusion, The Power of
Camp David. Again, Charles, thank you so much for coming
on spending a few minutes with us today to share
your experience with Camp David with us.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's been a pleasure, Doug, so thanks for having me well.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Thank you and
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