IFH 796: No Film School, No Problem: Gary King's Journey of Grit and Creativity

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indi Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number seven
ninety six, Cinema should make You forget. You're sitting in
a theater, Roman Polanski.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we showed you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
I am your humble.

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Host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of
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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 4 (01:55):
No, it's my pleasure, Gary, because you are a person
who had who I've had, who I've wanted to have
on here for a while. You see, I'm already messing
up care. You see that I've had to I wanted
to have you on here for a while. And I
know I say that a lot, but honestly, you and
I have, you know, talked briefly before via Facebook and Twitter,

(02:17):
and then there was like a gap and then we
were talking briefly again. So you know, you're just a
person who I've met years ago who I now get
to have in this medium, and it's so good to
actually reconnect and and you know, do something like this.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
I think it's just so cool, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (02:31):
Yeah, man, I appreciate again you inviting me, because Twitter,
you know, years ago was actually a great place to
network and meet people, actually physically meet people after you
connect online, and it's it's changed a little bit into
more of.

Speaker 6 (02:45):
Like a newsfeed.

Speaker 5 (02:46):
So I appreciate the fact that you would follow up
or you did keep in touch because I think we
did meet years ago when it kind of first started,
and I'm just seen you blow up and I have
to kind of do a little side note here and
say you your voice and your style reminds me of
like an eighties DJ, back when I was like commuting
to school. I'm kind of old, you know, so you

(03:07):
know there was these like shock jock DJs, not that
you do a lot of cussing and you know, all
these weird kind of antics and stuff, but you have
that voice that really draws you in and stuff, and
so you know, I think this is a really cool
thing that you're doing.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Gary.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
That is a huge compliment because I love the eighties.
It was the best era of all time, and in
the course of all human history, the eighties is still
the best time to ever be alive, and I appreciate
that so much.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Now my ego is going to be out of control now, Gary.

Speaker 6 (03:36):
It is. It is.

Speaker 5 (03:37):
It'd be like just to feed youre to get one
more time, Like you would be like one of the
guys in rotation at WKRP.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
I'm like, Hey, this is David Gay RP.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
And I'd have like a horn or something like, you know,
like exactly, and You're like, man, this guy's either you
think he's brilliant or or your dad would be driving
to be like, what the hell is this clown doing
on the radio?

Speaker 6 (03:59):
Exactly, Man, exactly.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
So Gary, you and I again, because we met a
few years ago, but you and I actually have a same, sorry,
a similar trajectory of similar a similar career path because
you actually started out in it and development and stuff
like that, and then you moved to New York to
become a filmmaker. And I want to ask about that,
just the sort of storys at the beginning. So you,

(04:22):
I assume went to college for maybe computer science or
something similar. So at what point did were you draw
into like the it work? I mean, were you always
a big it guy growing up?

Speaker 5 (04:33):
Actually it was HR and not IT because I'm not
really technical. I actually suck at that kind of stuff.
My brother was the engineer of the family. And I
went and fell into psychology for a while and got
a degree in psychology and did human resources for five years,
and it just wasn't a creative world, you know, like

(04:53):
HR is all about rules and regulations, hiring and firing,
and it's just kind of a very depressing realm that
you live in. And after five years there was kind
of some wayoffs going around where it made me kind
of wake up from what I was doing what I
really wanted to do. And I was very lucky having
my wife answered me when I told her I wanted
to make films for a living, instead of like what

(05:16):
the hell are you talking about? Her, there was nothing
like that. She just said to me, Okay, so let's
figure out how we're going to get you there. I mean,
it was like the perfect response. And this was like
mid two thousands and yeah, So We've been going at
it for a long time and every film that I
do just gets me closer to the goal.

Speaker 6 (05:32):
But I'm definitely not even close to where I want
to be.

Speaker 5 (05:35):
But it was definitely something where I had a love
for it growing up because my parents showed me all
these types of movies from different genres into fin errors
when I was a kid, and that stuck with me
the whole time. Even when I went and studied psychology,
I didn't realize there was film school. I didn't realize
people made films for a living, and that was part
of the issue. That's why I didn't go to film school.
I studied something else. But thankfully, as you know, nowadays,

(05:58):
you don't actually have to go to school. You actually
have to just go make films. And that's part of
the process of learning.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
Yeah, because you know, everyone has a camera nowadays and
even making practice films. And you know, that's something that
has been talked about on this podcast through a myriad
of guests, is just that if even if you don't
have access to maybe like a red package or or
like an a Sony was the Airflex package.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
You know, you even.

Speaker 4 (06:22):
If you take your phone and do it like Mark
Duplas says, and just make a movie in your backyard
for a hundred bucks or whatever. It's all training to
build you, to make you get better so you can
do other things, to do more things to do. Incident,
now instead of a hundred dollars budget, you got a
two hundred dollar budget, and then you just keep moving forward.

Speaker 6 (06:39):
Exactly, man, exactly.

Speaker 5 (06:40):
There's nothing more educational than going and like writing something,
trying to translate it from the page to the screen,
by working with your crew, working with actors, trying to
produce the damn thing, you know, and then you're trying
to edit the footage to make it seem like, you know,
you had some type of you know, idea that was
that made sense at the time. There's, like I phrasing
Woody Ellen when he says something like, I have this

(07:03):
perfect film idea in my head and then I slowly
mess it up as I write it and direct it,
and you know, all that stuff I know when it
comes out. So it's such a learning lesson to do
every film. I'm still learning. And the funny thing is,
you know, all my films, the feature films I've done,
are out there and it's basically my film school. They're
almost like student films if you think about it.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
You know, so you were talking about Woody Allen and
that that's also a guy who you know, some of
the things that he talks about and some of the
point of things that he says are just like you're like, oh,
that's exactly what my problem is.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
You know, it's not That's what I was doing.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, just to take a
step back, you know, I want to talk about just
in your background you mentioned hr and see this is
me Gary. When I see Silicon Valley, I'm immediately like,
okay it guy coding, you know.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Something with computer science.

Speaker 4 (07:52):
But so you worked in the corporate world, and that
that's where I was, you know, about what a year
ago or so, I worked at college and it was
just like you realize, you don't want to do it anymore.
It's such a grind. So you moved down to New
York to become a filmmaker. I mean did you, I mean,
just to sort of to dig a little deeper to that,

(08:13):
did you have a plan that this was going to
be it? And drive like a day that you set
and said, listen, I'm not going to work this job
anymore beyond this day and I'm just going to go
to New York and become a filmmaker or did you
sort of just do it on a whim?

Speaker 6 (08:26):
It was kind of. It was a loose plan.

Speaker 5 (08:28):
It was definitely My wife had friends and family out
in New York. So we we were living in the
barea Silicon Valley, and we said, okay, New York or
LA are probably the two most prominent places where you
can get stuff down done in network and all that stuff.
And she's from upstate New York, so a lot of
her friends actually moved down into the city and we

(08:49):
had She worked for the hospitality industry, so she put
out feelers to both New York and LA and I
just said, okay, so wherever you land your job, that's
Fate telling us that's where we need to go. And
those are the people I'm supposed to meet because I
had no connections, and it just figured, you know, I
was just going to let you know, Fate play a
hand and who I'm going to work with, and what
kind of stories I'm going to tell, what kind of

(09:10):
locations we're going to use, And it ended up being
New York and it was an amazing experience. Again, the
part of the plan was my wife was going to
have the stable job while I was just starting fresh.
We did cash out my four and one k, which
wasn't much after go to Uncle Sam took taxes away,
but we used that to make my first feature film.
I saved up a little bit more, and when we

(09:33):
moved out there, I made contacts by doing some web
commercials and doing some other smaller projects first to build
up a network of people that saw my passion, saw
what I was trying to do, knew there wasn't much
money in it, but because of the story I've written
and the things that I wanted to do, they were
in it for a little pay, knowing that we were
going to try to make something that was going to
get a lot of exposure for them.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
So when you made that first film, Gary, did you
write for the budget? And no, Hey, listen, I can't
make a huge action film, you know what I mean.
I can't make a four million dollar action film or
something like that. So did you write knowing this has
to be a small, compacted film, small, not obviously, you know,
it's professional and everything. I just met like small as

(10:25):
in scope, you know, again, because we're right, we're not
trying to make a four million dollar action film.

Speaker 6 (10:30):
Yeah, so yes and no.

Speaker 5 (10:32):
Because my first feature film was called New York Lately,
and at the time I was really inspired by Robert
Altman and pet Anderson and very a kaleidoscope of characters,
you know, following multiple storylines like shortcuts and boogie nights.
The thing was, I also picked that type of project
because I was asking at the time actors to work

(10:52):
for no money. It would just be the wonderful meals,
copy and credit. So what I wanted to do was
have a lot of characters so that each actor was
only committing three to four days of filming. It would
still be a feature film, but you know, the majority
of actors were only committing three to five days of
their time and not like sixteen twenty twenty five days
of no pay, because I really feel like shit if

(11:14):
I was doing that. But this was something where we're
casting a lot of newcomers, a lot of people that
hadn't had a lot of experience at the time. One
of them actually is blown up. She's on you're the worst.
It's Kelvin donnahue. And she was in a small role
in my film at the time. She had some credits
and she filmed for one day, you know. So it
was kind of just trying to be practical about asking

(11:36):
for people's time and commitment, knowing you weren't paying to
make a multiple storyline a lot of actors and characters,
and then just being inspired by the type of films
at that time that I was digging. So I just
wanted to kind of combine those two.

Speaker 4 (11:50):
So let me ask you this, Gary, did you ever
when Heather got you know, was just got that a level,
elite level, did you try to reach out to her
and she say who are you or something like that.

Speaker 5 (12:04):
Actually, no, you know, the funny thing was I moved
to LA right, I think as she booked it, or
was a little bit before she booked it. So she
moved to LA before I did, about four years ago
or something like that, and we connected for dinner and
you know, just cut up and then she booked it.
And so you know, she definitely thanked me when I

(12:26):
text her, like, holy shit, congrats and stuff. And I mean,
obviously he's busy now, so she won't write me back,
is often, but she definitely does respond.

Speaker 6 (12:35):
She's a very sweet girl.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, and you know that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
And you know, I always make that joke with friends
of mine if any of us ever, you know, won
a contest or got distribution, it'd be like immediately it
all goes to your head and become you know, like
your ego just gets that so out of whack. And
we all make that joke with each other that like
as soon as one of us hits like, we're not
going to know anybody anymore.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
It was just going to be a big time with
every right.

Speaker 5 (13:01):
It's almost like you make it and you like buy
a new phone and don't import your contact so you're like,
you're like, who the hell is this now? Like you're
not gonna you know, you're gonna change your whole like
click of people or something that'd be that would be
actually pretty terrible.

Speaker 4 (13:15):
And you know that that's the dream, Gary, that's the dream. No,
I'm just kidding. If everyone listening, I'm just making a joke.
I don't want people writing me more hate mail. But
but but walking aside, Gary, just to get back to,
you know, to your career. One thing that you taught me,
and this was what you taught me a few years ago,
which I've always kept with me, was when you're filming

(13:36):
a movie and and you're the director and you're directing
these actors and you're going through take and take and take.
One thing you taught me that I always keep with
me is each take you need to have a variation
of something so that way when you're editing, you have
choices to go through. And as as you know pointed
as that is. For some reason, when I was making
my first films, I don't know why, I'd never thought

(13:57):
of just even trying to do anything different, because like
my early films, everything was like every everything was the same,
Like every take was literally like exactly the same. And
when you told me that, I was like, oh, yeah,
that actually makes a lot of sense, you know what
I mean, And you make those adjustments. So so that's
something theary that you've taught me that I've kept with
me is just you got to you gotta have those
choices when you're in the editing room.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:19):
Man, that's funny because that basically happened in my first
short film when I was sitting there reviewing the footage
with my brother. He was like, dude, like every take,
like all these takes are the same thing.

Speaker 6 (14:30):
You didn't deal with do anything else? So what am I?

Speaker 5 (14:32):
What are you trying to even choose except like if
his hand, you know, happens to like randomly lift up
at this line versus this other line or whatever.

Speaker 6 (14:41):
You know.

Speaker 5 (14:41):
But basically, I hadn't on that first film, didn't tell
him to do anything different because I was just looking
for this single thing. I was so focused on trying
to get this one thing that you know, I didn't
really ask them to play around. But I mean directors
have different techniques. Some people like definitely have one single
thing in mind and that just trying to nail that
one thing. And that's what it is. And I've heard
other actors say that, you know, why do I want

(15:03):
to play around with stuff? Like just tell me what
you want, I'm gonna nail it. So it's funny. It's
like it's it's this kind of organic thing that you
feel on set. You know what you want and you
have to feel out how the actor and how the
actor works and stuff. So it's it's it's really really
a weird thing to work as a director, because you
actually don't get to do it a lot or not me,
I don't get to do it a lot. You know,

(15:23):
you there's like years in between times when you're on set.
You can do some smaller short projects or things like that.
But when you think about it, the director, if you're fortunate,
maybe you get to do two or three projects a year.
If you're you know, if you're playing around a lot more,
that's great. But if you're doing like really big projects
with a lot of money, the opportunity to work.

Speaker 6 (15:43):
With actors is not as much.

Speaker 5 (15:46):
When the you know, when the money's going, when the
crew is there and everything's on the line, like there's
not you don't get to do that very often. So
it's not like you get a lot of practice.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yeah, and very true.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
And you know that's why again where we're talking about
making movies yourself with you know, even just for practice,
so that way when you do actually get up to
the plate, you're actually able to sort of make the.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Most of every every single take and everything.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
And you know, as we sort of you know, talk
about that, you know, these directing styles. One thing too,
I forget who taught me this, but basically I think
I think I maybe heard it from somebody, But he
said what he would do is he would just let
he would let the actors go the first take was
with no direction. They would just go through the script
and then he then he would slowly come back in

(16:29):
and start making adjustments.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Here or there.

Speaker 4 (16:31):
And you know, some people are you know, maybe their
their third take is always going to be their best
for some weird reason, and then the other actor always
has their best take is like the first take, you know,
and and just sort of working and knowing everybody sort
of ticks like that or knowing that sort of thing.
You know, that also helps repair, which is also why Gary,
I've noticed a lot of directors always work with the

(16:52):
same actors over and over again.

Speaker 6 (16:55):
Right, very true, very true.

Speaker 5 (16:57):
A part of the rehearsal process, if I'm lucky get it,
is finding out actors working style.

Speaker 6 (17:02):
You know.

Speaker 5 (17:03):
Some people love to be told exactly what to do,
like look here at this line or look there, and
others want to be told what's my motivation?

Speaker 6 (17:10):
Like why am I doing this?

Speaker 5 (17:11):
I need to know and feel organically if you need
me to go over here or do this, like tell
me like my internal character's motivation or behaviors or thoughts
to be able to do that, so you can always
explore that working relationship in rehearsals if you have a luxury.
But you're right, it is funny because as you start filming,
you realize, damn this this one actress okay, her best

(17:34):
takes or take one and two, and then it just
starts to you know, fills a lot because she comes
out of the gates like boom.

Speaker 6 (17:39):
You know, right there.

Speaker 5 (17:40):
And then there's others who are like, you know, we're
not really gonna get anything good until it takes four
or five and six because we've consistently seen that, and
you start you know, you know, switching up your shot
lists because of that, which is hilarious. So, I mean,
there's so so many different things going on set as
a director, it's funny that you got to think about
things like that. And I'm talking to you about this
because not really, it doesn't get talked about a lot

(18:02):
until you actually do it and you realize, oh, that's
how it works, you know. Otherwise, like books don't tell
you this kind of stuff a lot of the time.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah, and that's so true because you know, I have
a ton of filmmaking books, and you know, as I've
sort of read them through different eyes, you know, you
read reading through the eyes of like a complete novice,
you know, your complete needs. And then you really and
then you realize some of these books they're written by
people who've either never written or made a film, and
it's a lot of theory or they made a film
like thirty years ago, and you're like, well, you know, okay,

(18:32):
some of it's still pertinent, but some of it's just like,
you know, hey, here's a great deal in a movieola,
and you're like, what the so it's you know, it's
just stuff like that, and you realize, well, damn, this
book's out of date.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
And but but you know, that's why I wanted to
start this podcast.

Speaker 4 (18:46):
Stuff like that, you know, really getting into the nity
of gritty of stuff that people can actually take away.
And it's actually full on, you know, actual practical advice,
no theory, it's just this is how it is, and
this is what you can do in a situation like.

Speaker 6 (18:59):
That arrives exactly. Man.

Speaker 5 (19:02):
The funniest thing I definitely in the beginning of my career,
like twelve ten, twelve years ago, I bought a lot
of screenplay books, and obviously when people are writing and
they're reading these screen how to you know how to
write screenplays?

Speaker 6 (19:16):
You just take the golden nuggets from each book. Obviously,
not every book is the Bible. We have to follow
to the t, you know.

Speaker 5 (19:23):
But it's funny when you actually look at these authors,
when you actually research, like you said, you take a
look at their actual philmography, like.

Speaker 6 (19:29):
What have they done?

Speaker 5 (19:31):
And sometimes it's nothing or Okay, they've sold a lot
of stuff, which is great, nothing has been made, or
some people like have sold one thing, So obviously they
have some type of credentials, but they're not the only
one that knows how to do it, which is you know,
the funniest thing, because I had some people try to
tell me, oh, your script doesn't follow Robert McKee. It's like, well,
that's fine. You know, I don't want to follow Robert

(19:52):
mckhee's story. This script doesn't want to, you know, do
his formula. There's they prescribe just to one book, which
kind of drives me mad.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
You know I have I did the same thing the
first book I ever read was actually a screenplay formatting book.
It was called The Screenwriders Bible, and I did read
the story, and you know, by McKee, and you know,
I've read all these different books and I think you
you know, I'm in the same boat with you, because
I think a lot of the times there's so much

(20:32):
theory going on that eventually you have to say, what
can I use out of this book. It's kind of
what Bruce Lee you always will say, you know, you
get rid of take what's useful, and get rid of
the rest.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
And you're always you're always looking for that.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
You're always looking for like what is that one quote
or golden nugget that I'm going to read? That's good,
I'm gonna go aha, I have an aha moment, and
now my perception has changed and that has given me
a new way of thinking to solve a problem or
a dilemma or something like that. But you really, those
books are really it's far few and far between because
you're trying to, you know, constantly have all this theory

(21:05):
and worry about all these formulas like oh my gosh,
does this scene have a positive or negative charge? Like
what the hell does that even freaking mean?

Speaker 3 (21:13):
You know, you're have all.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
This theory and in these books, and you sit there
and you go, well, how do I actually implement that?
You know, you can't be writing and go writing to
a formula or writing to a template, or writing to
oh does this scene of a negative or positive charge?
And eventually you start getting lost in your own head
and then you never actually you get stuck an indecision
and never actually do anything.

Speaker 5 (21:35):
Yeah, that's totally true, because you're right. You just start
overthinking things. And part of the goal is just to
finish a script. To me that I have so many
people that have said, oh, I'm working on a script,
I'm writing this, I'm writing that, I've gotten an idea.
I always say, have you finished it? Have you finished
a draft? Well, no, I haven't. It's like, man, you know,
it's like you got to get over that hump. There's

(21:56):
a lot of people that have this fear of just
like actually finished and getting that feedback. And I call
it the vomit draft. There's a million different names for
the first draft. You just got to get it out there,
done and give it to some trusted readers and just
get that kind of feedback. Because again, almost like making
a film. It's writing a script is a learning lesson
because after you write it, you've learned so much. You

(22:19):
have something on the page to analyze and dissect now
and get some feedback and then rewrite because as they say,
the cliche is writing is rewriting.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
Yeah, writing is rewriting definitely, because once you get that out,
you have to think you can go back and figure
out what actually things are. Oh, this is what this means.
And I think a lot of times too, that's where
we get sort of caught up. I think a lot
of times when writers get caught up, honestly, Gary is
input versus output.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
And here's what I mean by that.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
I think a lot of times when writers are writing
a script, or maybe even on the filmmakers are making
a short film or a feature length film, they're more
focused on the output of what the movie is going
to give. That meaning that all this movie is going
to go to Sundance and we're gonna win and we're
all going to become millionaires overnight.

Speaker 6 (22:59):
And I feel.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
I think we've all had that, honestly, man, I think
we've all had that where it's like, hey, this short film,
this I'm going to put this up on YouTube or
I'm going to do this and we're going to become
you know, overnight sensations, and that's going to be our
meal ticket. And I honestly think you have to have
that attitude at some point, because you have to have
some kind of passion or in the game that you're

(23:21):
going to be the best one. And I honestly I
think that's actually a good thing. But I think the
other part of it is it's like a double edged
sword because then you become so focused on what it's
going to give you that you're not focused on that
input of actually making it a good movie.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
You're focused on the right parts of it.

Speaker 5 (23:38):
I totally agree it's a hard thing to balance. You definitely,
you know, you want to make a living at us,
so you want that type of success, but it shouldn't
be a driving goal when you're creating, because then you're
kind of guessing what some other person wants when it
should be your story. It should be what you want
to tell and the byproduct of that. And as always

(23:59):
you see that as actually at the film festivals and
the festival darlings. Usually it's the more personal the story,
it's actually the more accessible it is to an audience
because they still relate to it because they see that struggle.
Regardless of race or gender, sexual orientation and whatnot, they
they relate to that struggle.

Speaker 6 (24:17):
You know.

Speaker 5 (24:18):
So it's something where the more watered down and the
more you're trying to guess, the more story by committee
the film is, and it's just becomes something that nobody
really cares about.

Speaker 4 (24:28):
Yeah, there's universal themes that really could sort of you know,
hit home. And also when I noticed when a movie
does come with a story like hey this is my
biopic or hey this is you know something that's actually
happened to me, and it's a you know, I mean
I've had you know, different people who I actually had
a Sundance Award when are on here, which was Morgan
Jay Freeman. He's episode ninety nine. He was actually on here.

(24:50):
He actually won Sundance I think in what ninety two
or something, and he was explaining, you know how the
whole thing sort of came together, and you know, it's
you know, it was a movie about these kids in
New York and a lot of people were like, hey,
you know what, that's it has a universal theme or
you can grow up anywhere like this, and you know
you'll feel some of that.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
You know you'll feel some of that, some.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
Of those universal themes like ostracization, being a kid, you know,
you know, stuff like that, And you know that's that's
why it's not a bad thing to put any of
that stuff in a screenplay. I you know, I was
a part of a writers group one time, and people
were actually saying, like, oh, why does everything have to
have universal themes blah blah this or that. I'm like,
because it's you know, it's what draws people into your story.
You know, feelings of regret and stuff like that. Everyone

(25:32):
has those, and I think that that's a key element
to sort of why some screenplay sell get made, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (25:40):
You know, yeah, it's funny too, because there's there's not
a formula at all. I mean, I made my most
successful one to date was in festival Wise Critically Wise
was how do you write a Joe Sherman's on my musical,
And it's about broady musicians, about Broadway people aspiring for success,
and some character are people that haven't reached it and

(26:04):
they almost have to give up their career. And it's
about you know, striving but not getting there. Ever, and
even though it's about Broadway, it had so many people
at the festival circuit come up to me and say, man,
I just really felt for this character or that character's me.
Even they're not a dancer or a singer, but within
their life, they had some type of goal that they
never reached. They never got to get there, and they

(26:26):
will never get there. And so it's again, like you said,
a universal theme. It can be any topic or subject setting,
but there's something there that people relate to. And that
was powerful for me to learn from that film because
I made other films that I thought were great and
they you know, didn't turn out how I thought they
were going to be. And you know, the festivals didn't

(26:46):
really take to them. Audiences you know, some some liked it,
some didn't. So it's just, you know, once you have
that type of critical success, it's not like you can
just copy and paste it to the next thing.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
You know.

Speaker 5 (26:59):
It's always it's subto organic, interesting process to try to
just create something that people will respond to.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Yeah, and that's the key.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
That's why I think a lot of times when people
take these movies and they sort of they deconstruct them,
they'll take like the Godfather or Raging Bowl or whatever,
and they take it and they reverse engineer it, and
they go, how can I make that?

Speaker 2 (27:18):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (27:19):
Well, you see this one scene here in Scarface where
he kills the guy unexpectedly. Well, that that's what you
that that's his hero's turning point.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, okay. You know,
at first, you when you when you're reading screen, when
you're reading these screen.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
On any books, you're like, oh, wow, yeah, that that's
a brilliant that's a brilliant thing to say.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
That's a brilliant analytical statement.

Speaker 4 (27:38):
But then as you sort of realize, well, but how
does that work towards us, you know, well, maybe yeah,
you might be able to say, hey, if someone's reading
your screenplay, hey remember in Scarface when he did this thing.
Oh yeah, it might be cool here. Maybe I don't know,
but I mean, like, you know, but to write using
that whole idea, I don't know if that's that's that
holds a lot of weight to it. You know, you
want to you don't want to be off movies. I

(28:00):
actually had a friend of mine who was in a
screen running competition, but he was a judge, and he
literally said he would read these screenplays and he said, Okay,
this is a scene from the Godfather, this is a
scene from you know, Casino, stuff like that, and he
realized they're just copying these movies because you know, that's
what they like, and they're trying to make a version

(28:21):
of that.

Speaker 6 (28:22):
Right, that's true.

Speaker 5 (28:23):
But you know what, Dave, I think every script needs
the line you know, first you get the power. Once
you get the power and you get the women, like
everyone needs that. No, just kidding, but yeah, no, I
mean it's so true though, Like you can't you can't, just,
like I said, copy and paste things. They can definitely
be inspired by stuff, but you know, you can be

(28:47):
influenced by things.

Speaker 6 (28:48):
But to try to.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
Just say it worked there, it's a moment I can
think that I think will just work here because it
worked there. That's that's a little hard to kind of
like force it in. So you know, it's something where
it's it's a learning lesson. Again, I think people definitely
once they finish that script and get that feedback, you
can tell when something's you know, authentic and.

Speaker 6 (29:10):
Should be there.

Speaker 5 (29:10):
Whereas people will be like this feels like it's from
out of left field because it was doing this and
all of a sudden you put this scene in here,
and it totally it doesn't make sense, you know.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
Yeah, and you know I do agree that that line
should be in every movie, by the way, that that
should be I take that back.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
It should be in every movie.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
And uh that that that is uh, you know that
is something that that it just lets you know who
the guy is. You know who let who the guy is,
and they wants the women in the power and and everything.
So you know, guys, as we're talking sort of too
about you know, you make writing screenplays and and actually
all these sort of fine points about directing, I wanted
to ask about your second feature film, because after you

(29:47):
made your first feature, or after you made your first
film in New York, you know, where, at what point
did you start wanting to make your second one? You
were already like, look, I'm gonna use this momentum and
push this right into my second film, which was I
think it was.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

Speaker 5 (30:11):
Dying of the Dead, right, or it's actually I got lucky,
I got hired to make a horror movie called Dismal
by some producers who were based in North Carolina, and
we went to shoot in Georgia.

Speaker 6 (30:21):
So that was just a director for hire.

Speaker 5 (30:23):
And I wanted to gain that experience of working with
somebody else's script, working with a producer, working on location.
So I was out in Georgia for like, I think
five or six weeks. So it's something I, you know,
got very lucky with. And I was really excited because
I started looking like Woody Allen or you know, Steven Soilderberg,
like I was pumping out like wow, this this year,

(30:44):
I got two movies coming out, and then the next
year I had What's Up Lovely, which I was doing
on my own, and I made it for like two
thousand dollars, So I had three.

Speaker 6 (30:52):
Movies coming out in two years. So I was like,
this is cool.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
This is something I'm going to keep doing because that's
it feels so easy, you know, like movie the Year.

Speaker 6 (30:59):
Yeah, that is a great pace. Obviously it doesn't doesn't
work like that.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Sorry, Eventually the break starts a slam and you're like,
oh man, and you know, and I think we've all
been there too, where we're like, well, what the hell's next,
and you just want to make something. You know, You're like,
I'll make anything, let's just do this thing. Uh So,
I but I but I what I meant to say
was death of the dead. I'm sorry, I call it
dying of the dead, but death of the day. So

(31:27):
I'm starting to like all all, you know, all the
ramerror movies are coming into no.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
But I'm just but uh but.

Speaker 4 (31:33):
When you actually so, when you started to actually go
back and make your own films, you know, at what
point were you just like, you know, I want to
go back to making my own stuff. I mean, you
did say you got a director for hire, gig and
you got to work with somebody else's script. But at
what point were you like, you know what, I want
to go back to this, you know, doing some more
of my own, my own material.

Speaker 5 (31:54):
You know, at that time, I was really really inspired
by Steven Soderberg and his body of work at you know,
his commercial peak was I think the late nineties, mid
two thousands, where he was doing we were saying, we
were calling it the one for one for me, one
for them, one for them, one for me. So he
was doing you know, Aaron Brockovich for the studio, but

(32:14):
then he'd go and make the Liamy or he'd make
Out of Sight for the studio. Then he'd go and
make some gosh as a full frontal I think it
was called. So he'd make, you know, smaller independent films,
experimental stuff like The Girlfriend and Experience. I was in
love with him doing smaller films that were taking risks
and doing different type of storytelling, and then he'd make

(32:36):
something for the studio. And obviously I was doing on
a way lower budget, way lower scale and scope, but
that was kind of like my idol at the time,
just like, you know, if I can sustain this thing
where I'm going to make something for myself and then
go get hired to do something and take some of
that money and you know, funnel it back into mind
to make another film for myself, Like this could be

(32:58):
kind of cool. And that's what I was trying to
do and my early early career with the first I
think four films or so.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
Yeah, you know, Steven Soderberg, he's always up to something,
and it's always really cool to see directors like that.
I have a friend of mine, he loves Richard link
Letter because Richard just does whatever he wants. I mean,
if you watch same thing exactly, because if you watched uh,
his latest one, which I think is called Everyone Loves
Some or Everyone Wants Some, Uh, that one that was
that last year. I had a friend of mine who

(33:25):
watched it and was like, Dave, is there.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
A plot to this movie? And I said, I said, well, no,
it's Richard link Letter.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
It's just you know, it is what it is, and uh,
you know it's I knew what to expect going in there,
you know, And and that's sort of why I think
everybody wants to have now the director's career who everyone
wants to have is of course Damian Chasse because you know,
he did he did.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Lot of Land and then he did what hell was
that whip whiplash? Thank you?

Speaker 4 (33:53):
Yeah, I could I just blank down in that name,
but uh but yeah, but you know, and that's sort
of the thing is, you know again, and I think
a lot of people are focused on that output because
again you're saying, well, Damien now can pretty much do
whatever he wants. He used to be Tarantino. Everyone wanted
his career because and that's where I'm guilty at Gary.
I still want his career, just because he came out

(34:15):
of nowhere working at a video store.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
That's what I love is that he didn't go to
film score or anything else.

Speaker 5 (34:21):
Yeah, yeah, man, I mean that's I remember you on
your other podcast you mentioned that you worked, I think
at a video store. I worked at a Blockbuster up
in Seattle for a summer one summer while I was
in school, and.

Speaker 6 (34:33):
It was awesome. Man.

Speaker 5 (34:34):
And again I didn't go to film school either, And
so it's something where just watching films, absorbing them and
then again is more about the actual making of them.

Speaker 6 (34:45):
Is the education you need. Film school was amazing, Don't
get me wrong.

Speaker 5 (34:49):
If I had the chance that the networking opportunity is amazing.
The people, the connections you get, the alumni connections you
get once you start entering the industry are told totally
totally amazing. And that's something I wish i'd done. But
I met so many people that have gone to film
school or no people that have gone, and they say, oh, well,

(35:11):
they you know, they don't really they don't really make
movies though they don't really know how to do like
direct movies. They've done some shorts, but they've never done
a feature or whatever. So it's you know, it's still
a lip sword, but it's something I think everyone was
living that dream when you wanted to be Tarantino or
Rubbert Rodrigez back in the nineties. And like you said,
dais Gazelle. Now's there's so many. That's a good thing,

(35:33):
like you have idols to aspire to be, which is
you know, keeps your fire going.

Speaker 4 (35:38):
So when you work at that blockbuster in Seattle, do
you have any funny stories, Gary, any funny customer stories any?

Speaker 6 (35:45):
Oh? Yeah, uh yeah.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
The best one I remember was we had a tape,
you know, the dropbox, the overnight dropbox. So we come
in the morning shift, we go through the bin, empty
the drop box, and you always have to do the check.
So like it says back lash the Mohicans, you have
to open up the case and make sure it's last
the Mohicans in there, you know. So we're doing through

(36:07):
the check to make sure for the tapes are correct.
And I opened up the case and the title is
just let's say lash the Mohicans. I can't remember exactly
what it was, but it was this wasn't that tape.
All it had was this label that said X handwritten
X I'm like, what's this? You know what, I'm not
sure what this is a little better check to see
what it's. I have a feeling what it might be.

(36:27):
The store is not opening. I'm gonna put it on
the overhead monitors just to see. And it was full
on fucking like it was a total porn and someone
had her on the wrong tape. And it was funny
because we had to look up the customer. We had
to make that embarrassing call and as soon as we called,
as soon as we called was hey, this is a blockbuster.
The customer that said, oh, you got the porn, didn't you?

(36:48):
Like he knew somehow he knew. And so that was
I think probably the weirdest, funniest story, because I mean,
who the hell re turns a porno?

Speaker 6 (36:56):
It's a blockbuster. It's just crazy.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
It's just called X.

Speaker 6 (37:01):
And yeah, like they label it X.

Speaker 5 (37:03):
I mean, what the at least name it like you know,
DeBie does Dallas or like like title unless in his
house you think his famous like X X one, x two,
x three, and he has like a database because he
doesn't want his wife to know there's like porn. So
he's got like, you know, some secret, you know, filing
system or something.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
He's hiding it away and it's weird.

Speaker 5 (37:22):
You know, but they're all they're all late, you know,
they're all displayed nicely on the shelf. But the wife
thinks like, oh, it's like X Man or something like
who knows, But then it's something else.

Speaker 6 (37:30):
Totally.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
There could be a movie in there too, Gary, Like
some guy returns the tape and the Blockbuster employees like
watch this and they're like, oh my god, this is
like a smut film, and then the guy comes after them.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
There's almost like a movie in there.

Speaker 5 (37:46):
That's like, I love Brian de Palmer Blowout or let's
like blow up. That's like, that's totally dude, that's like
and you could set it in the eighties because like
they don't have video stories anymore, video stories anymore.

Speaker 6 (37:57):
It's like eighties or nineties. Dude, I think you got
a film.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, we should we should write that together. Man.

Speaker 6 (38:04):
Well, okay, so dark comedy or suspense thriller.

Speaker 4 (38:08):
Oh, you know what, I think dark comedies work better
right now, But it could be a cool suspense thriller
to throw it back, you know, just almost like that
Brian de Palmas style. Kind of like, uh, you know sisters.

Speaker 6 (38:21):
Hm, wow, that'd be really dark. But I would love
a female lead.

Speaker 5 (38:26):
That'd be cool if if she's the one that finds
it and then you know, the sky starts trying to
like you said, trying to get that tape back or
that's interesting, that's that's pretty cool man.

Speaker 4 (38:37):
By the way, everyone listening to this, that's guyranized now trademark.

Speaker 6 (38:42):
Licensed.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
You're not gonna be in the theater just like eating
popcorn for a preview some of the new Tarantino Manson
Family Murder movie, and you're gonna see that's gonna be
a trailer.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
This idea, Like, wait a minute, that was that podcast
I did with Dave.

Speaker 6 (38:56):
That was our idea right from Paramount Studios.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
She was Lonely Videos, We're black butt and then it
changed yeah right.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Uh yeah, it'd be but it but it be you
know that that would be a fun idea to do
because I know a lot of times Kevin Smith, you
can't say this is a podcast, but I have a
Kevin Smith podcast fing in front of me, and he
always uses his podcast as sort of like a way
to sort of get new movie ideas and stuff like that.
And I think it's great because I think podcasting is
such a really cool tool some people. Some people make

(39:29):
books out of it, like Tim Ferriss and James Autacher
and stuff like that. And I really Kevin's idea though,
just using it to sort of facilitate, you know, making
new movies and stuff.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Like that, or you know, or what have you. I
think it's just really cool as a creative outlet, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor

Speaker 6 (39:55):
Yeah, I man, that is really cool. I didn't realize
he did that.

Speaker 5 (39:58):
It's I think if you have an audience, podcasting could
be amazing, you know, because it is the way to
directly talk with them instead of having to like write
tweets or like a long Facebook post. I mean, it's
definitely something where it's a lot more you get to
like express yourself a lot more quickly and something, like
you said, organically instead of having a proofread to writing

(40:19):
and then just sharing with your audience and then getting
feedback that way. That's that's interesting, man. It's something again,
if you had a pretty good listening audience, that's something
that really could work, you know, and he has he
has huge audience. I mean he has a huge audience.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Yeah, he does.

Speaker 4 (40:33):
And you know, I actually I've had on the Thornton
Brothers and they had a really cool idea for a
film that's centered around a podcast. And basically it's about
a guy who's in his basement and he's this real
far right radical guy and he has this podcast that
he uses to sort of just throw all this venom
and hate to out in the world, and then one

(40:54):
day a listener.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Comes to silence him.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
And it's a really really quiet it's called Cactus Jack.
And I can't wait to see them do it, and
I really, you know, just hope that that they keep
pushing forward with it.

Speaker 6 (41:07):
Now, did they they pitched it on the show to
you or they were already working on it and they
just kind of told you this is what we're doing.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Oh yeah, they were already working on it and they
pitched it.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
Okay, okay, Yeah, that's cool. I mean it sounds like
like a one location type of thing. It's like a
smaller budget to be able to just or is it
like a huge scope type movie.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
It's just one one location almost like Don't Breathe Night,
which I think is awesome, and I'm like, guys, keep
going with that idea, man.

Speaker 5 (41:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny because they totally reminded me and
it's totally not the same film, but just pump up
the volume with Christian Slater from the eighties and he
wasn't even like a far right guy in that movie,
but he was just this underground college DJ. But they
just kind of see that setting, just like, if they
can get an actor to be, you know, as charismatic
as Christian Slater from back then, or if it's a female,

(41:53):
who knows if they're actually thinking it's gonna be a female.
But I mean, yeah, whoever's playing that DJ better be
fucking charismatic because they're going to be carrying that movie
a lot.

Speaker 6 (42:01):
That's that's really cool.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah, they actually did some test screen and he's actually
like real, real interesting.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
And by the way, I apologize for for going off
topic and I'm talking about other people's movies.

Speaker 6 (42:10):
Sorry, no, man, No, that's awesome. That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
So let's talk more about Kevin Smith.

Speaker 4 (42:16):
But yeah, but you mentioned one of your movies, by
the way, that you crowdfunded, which was how do you
write a Joe Shermer song.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
I wanted to ask you about that.

Speaker 4 (42:25):
You know, you successfully crowdfunded a large portion of I
believe there was going to be an orchestra as part
of like one of the extended goals I believe, So
I wanted to ask Gary, you know, where did the
impetus for the idea come from to to actually make
this film and you know, and really how did you
go about, you know, actually actually making it.

Speaker 5 (42:45):
So I've always loved musicals growing up. My parents showed
them to me, and it was something that I always
just enjoyed, Like I did not have a problem with
people just breaking in a song and dance, and they
showed me like Singing in the Rain, the Music Man,
My Fair Lady, and I loved them. And then I
discovered West Side Story, which is a little bit darker,
but they still broke out into song and dance and

(43:06):
I was like, this is awesome. You know, musical is
one of my favorite genres. And then I discovered all
that jazz and I was like, wow, this blew my mind,
like the editing style and the way the songs were
incorporated into the film versus them breaking out into song
and dance like you know, that's a totally different type
of musical. And then Once came out and I was like, man, okay,

(43:26):
so this was like low key, smaller film but amazing songs,
you know, but shot for one hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
So I was like, okay, Like I love musicals, I
don't think we make enough of them. And I wanted
to do something for modern audiences which kind of blended
both the spectacle and being realistic. So I wanted to
write a story that kind of was grounded in reality

(43:47):
but still had some amazing songs. But I never had
the song. So I just had that idea for years
until after I moved to New York again. I was
there for a few years, networked and made a few films.
And Mark Deconso, one of my lead actors New York Lately,
had a friend named Joe Sherman, and he said, Dude,
I want to show you something. We were let's see,
trying to think North Carolina. We were in North Carolina

(44:09):
at the Charlotte Film Festival and I was in Mark Schuroman.
He pulls out his laptop because I want to show
you something. He's like, dude, Mark, I don't want to
watch poem right now, you know, we're at a festival.

Speaker 6 (44:17):
It's all good. And he's like, no, no, no.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
This guy named Joe Sherman. He writes music and it's awesome.
And he showed me some songs and I was like,
is this guy for real? Like is he already signed?
Is he doing Broadway movie Broadway shows. He's like no,
he just moved from Minnesota and he's just you know,
fresh off with boat and he's like trying to make
his way in New York.

Speaker 6 (44:35):
And I was like, I got to meet this guy,
and we did.

Speaker 5 (44:37):
We talked and I told him about my initial idea
about aspiring artists that are anonymous in New York. There's
so many, you know, amazingly talented singers and dancers in
New York, but they're your waiter, they're your server, they're
your bartender, you know, and you'll never know that they're
actually talented. That was the first spark of the idea
of the film, to be like, I want to show

(44:59):
what these people do and the struggles they go through
and the fact that you'll never know because they'll never
make it. And that evolved a little bit after, but
that was the beginning and with his songs incorporated and
just starting to do a few drafts and just you know,
honing in the story. That's how it became the movie.

Speaker 6 (45:19):
That it is.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
And you see, that's that's sort of how those ideas
are a ferment, you know, those ideas sort have come
out of nowhere, you know, and it's just it's just
amazing how even a simple thing that someone showing you
a video can just open up a whole new sea
of things and the whole new sea of ideas and possibilities.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
Right man, I have like literally right now, fifteen different ideas,
and back then, you know, I was tuning around with
like three or four. But the thing that always happens
is I meet somebody, or I find a location, or
something happens where all of a sudden, that idea bubbles
to the top. So, for among us, the film that's
coming out, the horror movie come out August eighth, gotta
plug it.

Speaker 6 (45:58):
That film I had.

Speaker 5 (46:00):
I'd always want to do a horror movie, but you know,
didn't think about it other than that, I just want
to make something scary. And again, Mark de Conso, my
my usual guy, the actors that my family has a
lake house up in Maine. We could totally shoot for
next to nothing as long as we just you know,
we can stay there and just make sure we don't
screw up the.

Speaker 6 (46:19):
House or anything.

Speaker 5 (46:20):
And then you know, and I was like, okay, we
can't blow it up. Okay, we won't blow it up,
but we'll make it a haunted house. But I want
to twist the convention to play with the genre so
it doesn't feel like paint by numbers type of movie.
But that's you know again, like that's why that movie
came about, That's why we shot that one next. So
there's always something that comes into play that brings the
project to the to the surface.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
So you can't blow up the house, you can't. You
can't go through the walls. You can't you know, put
blood everywhere. Yeh, away all your fun Gary, I.

Speaker 6 (46:49):
Know, man, I know.

Speaker 5 (46:50):
So then we just wrote a you know, one room
talkie movie with white walls behind it and shot on
hi aid VHS and no, just kidding, no, I mean,
we've definitely that was That's the part of the fun
is like, Okay, so there's a little bit of you know, constraints,
So how are you going to be creative around that,
and that's how the film became what it is.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
You know, it's funny, and I do want to ask
you about the about the film again. Uh, in just
one second, I want to tell you a little anecdote
about filming in a friend's house. A friend of mine,
a friend of mine when I did my student film,
which was my first ever film. I actually he said, hey,
we can film my grandparents' house. He goes, they're away.
They they have like three houses and this is the
one house that they're not going to use and they're

(47:33):
not using for the time for a long while, and
we can film there. The first day of filming, we
accidentally knock the entire door off the hinges. And because
this guy had to burst into a room, right so
rather than rather and what happens is the door I've

(47:54):
never seen a bathroom like this. The door hits into
the sink. There's no stopper or whatever. So he bursts
in the room and he hits the door, gets the
sink and literally the door comes off in his hand
like he's now holding the door like it's like a prop.

Speaker 6 (48:11):
And he's like what.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
The guy goes, what the fuck did you just do?
And now we're like, we're trying, and we're trying to
actually figure this out. So then it becomes the idea
of do we call a carpenter or.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Do we try to fix it ourselves. And it's almost
like a sitcom.

Speaker 4 (48:26):
It's almost like a Bad eighty sitcom where it's like,
oh great, now we got we gotta fix this door,
and as we fix the door, something else has to break.
But we ended up the guy's dad was actually had
a carpenter friend. He came in and he actually fixed
the door for us at.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
A later time.

Speaker 6 (48:42):
But it was just.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
It just it was just the incident itself.

Speaker 5 (48:48):
That's so two things come to mind with that story.
So number one, hopefully you use that take in the
film like that made it into the movie.

Speaker 6 (48:55):
Oh yeah, okay.

Speaker 5 (48:57):
And two, you could totally tell you guys are film
nerds versus like sex freaks, because like risky business, like
if someone's house was empty, like party, but you guys
said let's make a movie.

Speaker 6 (49:10):
You guys were film nerds, which is great, kudos to that.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Exactly, a couple of guys the house to themselves time
to make a movie.

Speaker 6 (49:18):
Right right, That's the first thing that comes to my mind.

Speaker 4 (49:23):
It's funny too, because that same guy his grandparents let
us use their beach house.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
This is I'm sorry, I'm sorry to keep holding these stories,
but this is great. This is great.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
He said, Hey, my great parents said let us gonna
let us use their beach house. So you know, of course, hey,
let's let's bring down some beer, let's bring down some stuff. Well,
when we get there, he says, oh, there's only one rule.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
And I said, what's that. He goes, there can be
no girls here and I and I said, why is that?

Speaker 4 (49:50):
He goes, Well, if if somebody were to come in,
he goes, like from my family, he goes, and if
they told my grandparents, they would get upset because they're
very old fashioned.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
And this and that we'll be right back after a
word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
So I said, well we can, we can make another
movie while we're in here, and and he stared, daggers
into me and he goes, he goes, I'd rather just
have a party nice.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Because this guy was I think a little burned down
of movie. He said the first one.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
But uh, but no, it was just hilarious and uh,
and that that was We ended up just actually driving
to a c anyway, because he's right by.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
He was read back to see so we ended up
I ended up winning like two hundred bucks at a
slot machine that night.

Speaker 6 (50:41):
So but.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
But, uh, but but I want to get back to
your your actual filmography, and your latest film is actually
Dubout the August the eighth, So if you could, you know,
could you just give us a you know, a sort
of a summary of the film, give us a log line,
and and you know, just a little more, any more
information you give us about the film.

Speaker 5 (51:03):
Yeah, So among us is it's a supernatural thriller, a
horror thriller. It's about two, it's a married couple of
two characters. Mainly, it's a very character driven story about
My original idea was to start the movie off with
people just leaving the house already, because with most horror movies,
you always ask if the house is haunted, why you

(51:24):
just leave?

Speaker 6 (51:25):
So this one we already address it. They leave the
house and they get into a car accident.

Speaker 5 (51:29):
The husband gets paralyzed, and we flash forward a few
months and they're struggling with their marriage. You know that
they're living in an isolated area, hoping they've escaped whatever
was haunting them. They've lost their child, They're a broken family,
and the story is really about trying to move on
and trying to still stay together and still love each
other amongst all this tragedy, and there's a haunting still.

(51:50):
So it's something where I try to make something a
little bit different but still play with a lot of stuff.

Speaker 6 (51:56):
Where there's you know, some scares and some suspense, but
there's definitely more there.

Speaker 5 (52:02):
And I don't want to talk about the other, you know,
elements that I put in there other than that I
love to I channeled Brian de Palma, Little John Carpenter.
But also I had films when I was writing it
and making it that I showed the actors and my
DP that I wanted to kind of feel in term.
I wanted our film to feel like in terms of
the tone, so it'd be like Eyes White Shut that marriage,

(52:25):
you know, think about that marriage that they had, The
Gray with Leam Nice and Joel Carnahan's The Gray, Three Colors,
Blue was another one, Insidious, the Descent, Rust and Bone.
So these were the ones that I kind of told
people like, these are the films that show people that
are struggling and you really care for them. And that's
the kind of movie that I really wanted to make.

Speaker 4 (52:46):
Yeah, and I love those those movies by the way
that you mentioned, because those movies, you know, are those
sort of movies where it's more about the character and
more about you know, using the location you have rather than.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
Again exactly, rather than again exactly.

Speaker 6 (52:58):
I'm sorry, Gary, Oh no, I just say, yeah, I'm
agreeing with you.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
Sorry, I thought I kept cutting you off. I'm sorry
about that. No, so because sometimes you know, actually cut
people off. I'm sorry about that.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
But I always like, whoops, sorry, I didn't mean to
step on your line. But what happens is, you know,
movies like that are really cool, and I mean like
The Great for instance, I remember the selling point for
me was they had a production still or maybe it
was maybe it was just a quick video and Liam
Neeson had those broken mini bottles on his hands, ready

(53:30):
to fight those wolves, and I went, well, this movie
is gonna be great.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
I mean, how can you go wrong about that?

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Right?

Speaker 6 (53:37):
Right? It's yeah, that movie is amazing. I was one
of my favorite movies that year.

Speaker 5 (53:42):
I mean, the performances and again, just the kind of
movies that I love is like you really get to
know the characters who care about them and then the
shit goes down, you know. And that's something I analyzed.
And this is how we're talking about scripts. Like I
didn't analyze the script of The Exist Exercist, but I
watched it, and I remember it was about forty minutes
into the running time before anything really you know, spooky, happened.

(54:04):
So it's forty minutes of character development. And I was
lucky enough to talk to William Freakin at he did
a book signing, and this was in Brooklyn. We just
had watched Sorcerer and he had an autobiography come out,
and after the screening I got gone to sign it
and I just said, hey, mister, I said, Billy.

Speaker 6 (54:22):
No, I didn't say Billy. I said, mister freaking.

Speaker 5 (54:25):
What advice do you have for me if I'm going
to go shoot a horror movie in a few a
few weeks actually, And do you have any advice?

Speaker 6 (54:32):
Just simple advice?

Speaker 5 (54:33):
And he just said, no bullshit scares, make us care,
and that's exactly what I aim to do.

Speaker 4 (54:42):
So and using that advice, that's when he says, no
bullshit scares. Using that advice, does he mean like none
of the sort of stuff where like, you know, a
scare happens or and it's like turns out to just
be a false uh you know what I mean, Like
the person sort of looks behind the curtain and there's
nothing there.

Speaker 5 (55:00):
And then because I remember because the Exorcist had a
moment when you know, the mother goes up to the
attic and there's a big candle and then a flame
and she's scared because the caretaker's up there.

Speaker 6 (55:10):
So that's like a genuine thing because that happened.

Speaker 5 (55:12):
I think it's the one where the hand comes off
and touches you you know, uh, when they're like I'm
trying to think of what movies that did, but like
a character's looking around at spooky house and then the
hair I mean a hand comes from off a frame
and then touches the shoulder, and then the music is
jacked by like you know, ten times louder now and
just just to give you that scare versus like a

(55:34):
scare that's earned, you know.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
Yes, And there's actually a really good sort of movie school,
if you will, about that where if you look atup
the First Halloween where Donald Pleasants is sitting outside Michael
Myer's house and those kids go up there and they're like, hey,
knock on the door, and Donald's pleasance as doctor Loomis goes, hey, Mike,
you know you'll get out of here, your motherfucker your
little shity Yeah, and the kids freak out and they

(55:57):
run away. Well Donald pleasants so proud of himself. Well,
the sheriff grabs his shoulder real quick. But there's no
music whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
There's none.

Speaker 4 (56:04):
It's just Loomis going, Oh my God, Jesus, you could
be in Michael Myers, you know, And it's just that
right there. And I realized I'd never even thought of it,
and so I watched it again. I'm like, man, there
is no musical cue there, and it's brilliant. It's almost
like that guy John carpenterho knows what he's doing, but
I think he might.

Speaker 5 (56:20):
Have something he might go places. No, but like, yeah,
Halloween is an amazing felm. And I think there's another
scene where Jamielee Curtis. Lorie is walking in the daytime
and she's walking home from school and I think she's
staring at the house. And as she's staring at the house,
she bumps into somebody, and again I don't believe there's
like a music cueue there, but it starts the shit

(56:42):
out of you.

Speaker 6 (56:43):
And it's exactly you know the point.

Speaker 5 (56:45):
Like, so, we have something in my movie where I
totally didn't purposely try to make it a jump scare,
but there's a moment like some character says something to
someone who's back is turned.

Speaker 6 (56:55):
And I didn't put in a cue.

Speaker 5 (56:56):
I didn't put in like this dude to try to
like just make people jump, because it's not earned. That's
like a jolt, that's like a startling moment versus like
a truly truly terrifying moment where you're startled because it's
actually happening to that character in that scene, not because
the score is making it happen.

Speaker 4 (57:13):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, because because I think that that and
that that's the main problem I have a lot of
modern horror movies too, ish is there's no real there's
no real idea of there's a real core, you know
what I mean. It's it just feels like it's sort
of put together, you know what I mean. And it's
just I actually it's a problem. I have a lot
of movies lately but but I digress. I mean, I

(57:34):
trust me, I watched so many movies, Gary, and I
have a twenty minute role. If you can't droll me
in with the first twenty minutes, I turn it off.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
You know, I'm done with that. But I just feel
sometimes that.

Speaker 4 (57:47):
There's not a lot of there's there's a there's too
much money, not a create not enough creativity, or maybe
there's there's too much focus on the output and enough
on the input.

Speaker 5 (57:55):
You know, mm hmmm, yeah, I mean, thanks, there's a
resurgence of solid horror movies lately, but like you said,
I mean for every solid horror movie, there's like ten
that copy it or copied the one that came before
it that was a hit, and they don't really know
what they're doing. They're just trying to copy the formula.
And that's that's when it just becomes stale or you

(58:18):
know something where you're like this, this, this has no
this had no reason to be made except for money
because obviously people really didn't care about it.

Speaker 4 (58:26):
But so you know, with your new movie among Us
coming out on August the eighth, you know where that
can people view that at?

Speaker 5 (58:35):
It is actually available on every major cable provider, which
is amazing. This is my first time my film is
going to be this wide to basically be on demand.
So if you're at home on August eighth, you can
just turn on your cable provider and among Us will
be there. You can also get it on iTunes, Amazon,
Google YouTube, like all those kind of streaming kind of services,

(58:55):
view d services you can get and it also is
available on DVD and Blu ray on Amazon dot Com,
and the DVD and blue ray have some bonus features,
so it has a deleted scene, alternate ending, and some bloopers,
so you get some fun stuff that way.

Speaker 6 (59:09):
I love physical media. I still collect physical media.

Speaker 5 (59:12):
I know I'm old school, but I wanted to make
sure our distributors, Gravitas Ventures, put some bonus features on.

Speaker 6 (59:19):
If they're going to put out physical media, think you
got to put something and out. You can't put out
bare bone stuff. You gotta put something fun for people
to be able to want to collect it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (59:26):
I mean, Gravitas is awesome, by the way. I mean,
congratulations on everything. Gary, I mean, you know, just just
for meeting you a few years ago, I mean, you
have just exploded it. I'm like, man, he's Twitter verified,
he's got a wiki page.

Speaker 5 (59:38):
I mean, man, well yeah, I mean if that's if
that's success, then sure I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (59:47):

Speaker 5 (59:56):
But you know, obviously, for me, the funniest thing is
like there's you're never satisfied where you're at, because man,
ten years ago, I would have loved to be here
now where I'm sitting being like, Man, okay, a film
with distribution, it's awesome because you know, when I first started,
the first two or two films I made when in
terms of distribution didn't get picked up.

Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
And so now I'm like, I have distribution. This is great.
They actually gave me a sweet deal. We're making money.

Speaker 5 (01:00:25):
This is awesome. But now obviously I want something bigger.
I want something a little bit more, and that's the
thing that drives me to keep going. So thank you again.
I didn't I totally don't mean like not to sound
like I that I'm not very appreciative, Like I totally
love the fact of where I'm at, but it's just
there's so much more to do and so much things

(01:00:46):
to create that I just want so much more.

Speaker 6 (01:00:49):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:00:50):
Oh yeah, I completely understand. Gary tru trust, I completely understand.

Speaker 6 (01:00:53):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:00:54):
You know, there's nothing wrong against universal theme. There's nothing
wrong with want of a better life for yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:01:00):
Right, that's true, man, that's very true. But yeah, it's
the funniest thing is that I was shocked about the
Wikipedia page. I have no clue who created it. I
was really shocked about that piece. I mean, I still
don't know. Some sometimes I see it being updated and
I'm like, wow, I don't know. I don't know who's
doing this.

Speaker 6 (01:01:18):
This is funny. See, I expect go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
I was gonna say, see, you're you've got this fan
base you've been developing, and and and they're doing it,
you know, and uh, they're they're they're holding the Gary
King or they could think you're that guy from that
World's End with that's page.

Speaker 6 (01:01:32):
I think that's the page.

Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
I think that's the page they're actually they thought they
were doing and then it turned out to be me.

Speaker 6 (01:01:38):
Yeah, that's that's pretty much right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
When I saw that movie, I was like, oh, Gary King,
I know that guy.

Speaker 5 (01:01:44):
That was part of the fun of that movie because, uh,
my friends said when they were watching they would giggle
every time.

Speaker 6 (01:01:49):
Not I mean, the movie's funny, but they're like it
was the.

Speaker 5 (01:01:51):
Extra funny factor because they'd be like, Gary King and
it's like they just think of me.

Speaker 6 (01:01:56):
It started giggling.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Yeah, it's uh again.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
That's how I got another layer of enjoyment out of
that movie too, just because by the way, Gary, speaking
of which, some Twitter questions came in, do you have
a few minutes to answer maybe one or two questions?

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
I yes, So this question came in.

Speaker 4 (01:02:14):
I'm sorry, let me go grab my phone. I know
this is not not not good for an audio podcast.
As I grabbed my phone, I know everyone's like, oh right.
So this one came in and it said, I demand
to know what Carrie's favorite records are to write to?

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
All caps.

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
This is the most important question. So Gary, Gary, what
are your favorite records to write to?

Speaker 6 (01:02:39):
Jesus Man? Oh god? So yeah, it's it definitely varies
from script to script.

Speaker 5 (01:02:48):
Obviously, when you know you're writing a certain genre, you
kind of pick and make create a playlist for your stuff.
So I actually did a music drama that's done and
we're in development almost, you know, hoping to shoot soon.
It's being shopped around. It's kind of a road trip
movie about a singer songwriter. So I pulled up, man,

(01:03:08):
I made a playlist of these random people, you know,
the beauty of Spotify. And I'm not being sponsored by
Spotify here, but I mean I can pull up the
playlist right now. Since I'm sitting in my computer, I
can just I'll name a few artists from that playlist
that I that I had. So you went to your phone,
I'm going to my laptop.

Speaker 6 (01:03:27):
Let's see here.

Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
By the way, I actually just submitted to have this
podcast on Spotify. So if you, if you are endorsed
by them, Gary, please put in a good word for.

Speaker 6 (01:03:34):
Us, right, Okay, So I had.

Speaker 5 (01:03:41):
Let's see, so I had some Johnny Cash, Joni Mitchell,
Marvin Gaye, Beach Boys, let's see Iggy Pop, Ario Speedwagon,
Joe Cocker, Theo, The Who, Future Islands. Let's tell this
this reader, I'm not this reader this list. I will
share my playlist with you. If he tweets me, I can.

(01:04:03):
I can always send this off to him, like I
can make it public.

Speaker 6 (01:04:06):
But but yeah, no, it's it was. It's definitely like
it's a it's a road trip movie.

Speaker 5 (01:04:09):
It's it's a singer songwriter and she meets a guy
who plays like the blues, and so it's all these
different styles that are going through. And she's remembering her
father had passed away and he loved you know, older
kind of music like the Beach Boys and stuff.

Speaker 6 (01:04:22):
So it's like a mishmash of all these types of
musical styles.

Speaker 5 (01:04:25):
So it celebrates various types of artists and genres as
as this movie goes along. So I'm really happy about
it and I can't wait to make it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
The guy did actually tweet both of us, so it's
Dave mhalland so you can see you'll see the sweet.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
On your timeline.

Speaker 6 (01:04:42):
Right. Nice. Okay, So, and the second.

Speaker 4 (01:04:44):
Question that came in Gary was was I'm sorry I
put my phone down, but I know the gist of
it was basically was basically, you know, where if if
you could give any advice for a person to start
making a film, where would it be.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
What would it be?

Speaker 6 (01:04:58):
I'm sorry, it's like first time, first time ever.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
It's like a first time filmmaker.

Speaker 6 (01:05:05):
I would It's funny because I remember.

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
So there's a piece of advice that all men says
is basically don't take any advice. And he's a maverick
and he's one of those guys who didn't take any
advice and you just is his own thing. So that's that's,
you know, one thing that you can say. What the
other one is for me is just not to give up.
Definitely see it through to the end, because once you do,
you'll either know if you love it and if you're
bitten by the bug to want to make more, or

(01:05:29):
if you've had enough and think, Okay, I did that
and I'm going to try something else now. Because filmmaking
is not easy. There's a lot of work into it,
a lot of different people that come into play. I
was very fortunate to meet people early on in my
career that believed in me and wanted to work with
me for very little money. And I know the do
Plos brothers say this too, where they say, you know,

(01:05:50):
if you're if you're making a movie and people, you
know you're paying people one hundred a day just to
be there, but you know others are asking for more.
Those aren't the people you want to work with. And
you're starting out because you want people there for you
for the story, not from the money. Because at that stage,
at that level, everyone's there trying to make something great,
trying to elevate the careers. So it's something just do it,

(01:06:13):
do it for the love, and then do it again.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
And you know that is excellent advice. Gary, don't take
any advice.

Speaker 6 (01:06:20):
No, but right, so whatever I just said, just delete
it and then just go do what go do what
you want.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
Yeah, and seriously and getting together. And this is not
to not to keep you for too long.

Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
I'm sorry, Gary, I know we're going over, but I
just wanted to mention one thing that I've been listening.
I listened to a lot of podcasts on my drive
to and from work, and I also listened to a
lot of books on audible via Audible, And one thing
I've noticed is, you know, building that masterline, building a
crew around you, you know what I mean of people
who are only supportive, but also we're striving to make

(01:06:52):
you better and also bring you opportunities and stuff like that,
and uh and and it's a mutual beneficial thing. You know,
it's not just all them giving to you. But I
think just you know, uh, building the finding those people
is like a skilling of itself, you know what I mean.
Like finding a producer who just would work with you,

(01:07:12):
almost like finding like you're your Frank Marshall or finding
like your Lawrence Bender something like that.

Speaker 6 (01:07:20):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
And people have asked me to because you know I
do so like I'm I'm okay, this is the only
time where I'm gonna get a little cocky, Gary.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
I'm not a very cocky guy.

Speaker 6 (01:07:30):
I am.

Speaker 4 (01:07:30):
Actually I'm not gonna just just make stuff up. I'm
actually very good at networking and producing stuff. I I
that is the only time I've ever gonna I've realized,
I'm It's just like a natural thing for me to do.
And I'm always meeting new people and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 (01:07:44):
And that that's gonna be your sound bite to promote
this show, by the way, You're just gonna use that
piece that like like who is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
This guy again?

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
Why do I Why am I listening to this show?

Speaker 6 (01:07:55):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (01:07:55):
But but that that's actually where I'm really good at
and I and honestly, when I when I've been able,
when I've been asked to do other people's movies, I'm
always like, I don't want to fucking do that. I
don't want to make it. Anybody else's movie. I want
to make my own movies, you know. And it's just
kind of you kind of wonder where to draw that
line though, because that's what I've been wondering in the
in the in the past couple of years, because I've
I've turned down so many movies projects have been offered

(01:08:18):
me come on as producer because I'm just like, well,
there's no money. It's just well, you know what I mean,
and it's probably good for both of us. I turn
it down because I you know what I mean, Like
I was just looking for money from this one project
or I might you know what I mean, and it's
not what I really want to do. So my heart's
not into it, you know what I mean. So I
think it's good for for everybody. If if if me
saying no.

Speaker 5 (01:08:38):
Yeah, no, I mean, a great producer is hard to find.
I produced myself out of necessity, not because I love it,
but finding a producer that.

Speaker 6 (01:08:47):
Loves it is rare, and if they're good at it,
you got to hold on to them.

Speaker 5 (01:08:51):
And that's why I'm sure, like you said, Lawrence Bender
work with Tarantino for like three or four films, and
all these other people, if they partner up. They partner
up for a very very long time. And it's something
my wife does very well, and she does for my
films only because like you, you know, it's like I
believe in these projects. I don't want to be hired
to do something just to do it. So it's something

(01:09:12):
where it's such a hard skill and it's such a
it's not only hard, but it's something it's very delicate.
Like you said, you have to be very good at
what you do to get.

Speaker 6 (01:09:24):
Things done right away.

Speaker 5 (01:09:27):
And it's it's again if I might be given you
a call later about producing, but now I'm just kidding you.

Speaker 6 (01:09:34):
Definitely.

Speaker 5 (01:09:35):
The cool thing is as a filmmaker for yourself too,
you know what it takes to produce something, so as
you're writing it or as you're directing it, you can
work both hats to know what you can demand of
the crew or of yourself based on what you have
with the with the project.

Speaker 6 (01:09:51):
And if that's a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
m and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (01:10:03):
Really great skill like that's what I'm proud of as
a director, having produced, I know when to ask for
things and when not to ask for things based on
what's going on, and the producers really, you know, appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
Anytime you want to call me Gary to talk about producing,
let's do it, man, Let's.

Speaker 6 (01:10:21):
All right. Sounds good.

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):
I was just telling the story the.

Speaker 4 (01:10:24):
Other day about how I got a bunch of different
locations for free, and people were like, how the hell
did you do that?

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
And I said, well, it's a funny story.

Speaker 4 (01:10:31):
So but but you know, it's just, you know, I've
been doing a lot of writing for the past couple
of years and I hope to actually enter some scripts
in a slam dance this year, you know, just to
sort of get that juice back. And that's when the
main reason I created this podcast was not only just
to do something creative, but I get to meet all
some people and I mean it's just been all positives

(01:10:53):
you know about this podcast, and it's just you know,
it's it's just awesome man, and Gary, I just want
to say thank you so much for coming on, and
before we go, I just want to have one more question,
that is, where can weple find you out online?

Speaker 6 (01:11:06):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 5 (01:11:07):
First of all, you know, this conversation went really really quickly,
so I enjoyed myself a lot, and they can find
me at the best place is g R king dot com.
That's g r kig dot com. I believe there's links
to my Facebook, to my Twitter there, and there's information
to all my films where you can find them. So
New York Lately, What's up Lovely? And how do you

(01:11:29):
write a Joe Sherman song? You can see a little
bit of information about them, as well as links to
Amazon Prime where you can watch them for free, and
you can find out information about, among us, my latest
horror movie coming out, where I would love for you
guys to check out and appreciate the support.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Gary, I want to say thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:11:45):
Well. You have to add one link to X the
project the working title also just X handwritten X.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
And yeah, by the way, was X Was it a
VHS tape or was it a DV day? I'm hooked.
That's it.

Speaker 6 (01:12:00):
Let's hitch this tomorrow, right, I'll make some calls, We'll
get some meetie.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
Seriously, let's do it, man, Let's do it. Yeah, what's
stopping us?

Speaker 6 (01:12:09):
Nice? Nice?

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Gary R.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
King.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
I want to say thank you so much for coming on, Buddy.

Speaker 5 (01:12:15):
Dave, Dave, b thank you sir, and hope to come
back again sometime and definitely we'll be talking soon too.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Indie Film Hustle
dot com Forward slash seven ninety six, and if you
have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com.
Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again

(01:12:43):
so much for listening. Guys, as always, keep that hustle going,
keep that dream alive, stay safe out there, and I'll
talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast at
Indie Film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I
E F I L M h U S T l
E dot com.

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