Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the indieilm Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight, No.
Two Cinema should make You forget. You're sitting in a theater,
Roman Polanski.
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Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
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Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle podcast.
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I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
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Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur
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today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
On this week's episode, I'm going to talk to the
co founder of Rotten Tomatoes, very polaring website. We talk
about that, you know, it's the internet's leading film critic
source and almost and they're trying to get into film news,
but run Tomatoes it's, you know, depending on who you ask,
some people think it's great, so we will think it's
it's just terrible. But and the reason being, we're gonna
(02:16):
and Patrick and I are going to talk about all
that in this episode, about you know about bias, that
there is some you know what he's he's handled about
studios calling in and complaining about negative reviews.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
And all that good stuff with guests Patrick Lee.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Before Run Tomatoes, Mike co founders and I, we had
a design firm called Design Reactor, and originally we were
doing design work for anybody and doing any kind of
design work including you know, print, three D design and
web design, and eventually we decided to focus it just
(02:54):
around web design for the entertainment industry. So we managed
to kind of get a hold into our foot in
the door into Disney Channel and eventually grew that relationship
with them to the point where we were doing majority
of their web pages and games. We also started working
(03:15):
with a lot of other entertainment companies, including ABC, Warner Brothers,
Artist and Entertainment, MTVBH one, we made the online flash
game for Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, and so
from there we kind of ended up transitioning to Ron Tomatoes.
Our creative director at the time, Sen Duang, came up
(03:37):
with the idea Forron Tomatoes, so he created it and
this is while he was still at design ractor and
he ended up doing this on the side, came up
with the idea for Rotten Tomatoes. Basically, you know, if
you back then, you would open up a newspaper you
see a full page ad for a movie. He would
look like a movie poster and have a bunch of
quotes on it, except all tho quotes would always be good.
(03:58):
And his idea was just like, what if I put
all the quotes good and bad on you know, one
page in the similar format and kind of show you
the percentage of good versus out of the total. And
that's how he came up with I did for on tomatoes.
So he ran that for about a year on the side,
and eventually we're like, you know what, maybe this should
(04:21):
be the business. So we transition out of our design firm,
raise money for Rotten Tomatoes, and then pass our design
from mock to another group.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
So you know, I like that idea too.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
You know, you see everything on each side of the coin,
and you know that's that's just interesting with how everything
has become nowadays, you know, because like, yeah, I mean,
I'm sure you've seen movies nowadays where you've seen the
trailers and stuff like that where they've said, like rotten tomatoes,
it's certified fresh.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
You know you've seen that, right, Patrick.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
So it's like a friend of mine and I were
talking the other day and he goes, Yo, why does
everyone mentioned rotten tomatoes and ads now?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
And I go, they have to. That's like the barometer now,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
It's like it's like if they even certified fresh, it's
like that's a state of approval.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
Yeah. Yeah, So originally we didn't have that. I mean,
it used to beat just a movie was fresh about
sixty percent or above. And the reason why Sen decided
on sixty percent was he felt like fifty percent was
like half half and he's like, oh, that doesn't seem
positive enough. So he decided, you know, three out of
every five, so sixty percent. And then we didn't come
(05:26):
up with certified fresh until years later, probably probably about
three or four years in. And it was actually our salesperson,
Evan Koit, who I think really came up with the
idea when he was talking to studios and they you know, basically,
we found that when a studio bought advertising with us,
(05:51):
if the movie ended up you know, fresh, they would
have a high chance of buying more. Obviously it ended
uproad and it was it was kind of a nightmare
and they would be very unhappy, but we couldn't control that.
And so one thing that Evan kind of came up
with it was he's like, you know, maybe we should
create something kind of above us fresh and so you know,
(06:16):
and this is what I think it was when we
were talking with Fox Searchlight and they were like kind
of giving a similar feedback, and that's when we're like, yeah,
that might make sense, you know, if the movie's really good,
if we should kind of separate that out. And so
in that case, it's movies that are seventy five percent
are above so three out of every four. And then yeah, nowadays, yeah,
(06:39):
I see it all over the place. You know, it'll
be on DBD, you know, cases and in trailers for movies,
and it's it's always cool when I see that.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
So when you mentioned all the studios, if they if
they if the movie ended up being certified fresh or
even fresh, you know, they would be more you know,
I guess, I guess dispositioned or if you will, you know,
to buy more ads. But if the movie didn't, you know,
end up being rotten list says rotten, you know, they.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Wouldn't buy more ads.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Was there ever a point in time where I mean,
you know, you said they were very unhappy. Was there
ever a time where it got like really bad where
you know, maybe they said, you know, hey, Patrick, you know,
I we just feel this movie is being like unjustly
you know, uh, sort of skewed.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Yeah. So studios and maybe other people in entertainment industry,
they they have a love hate relationship with On Tomatoes
depending on what the score is. You know, if yeah,
if it's fresh, they'll put it everywhere. They'll they'll do
marketing around that, which you know, creates more awareness for
On Tomatoes. But when it's rotten, they'll be really unhappy.
(07:49):
We've had you know, studios, producers, et cetera, and marketing
people threatening to pull at campaigns or threatening to never
advertise with us again. And especially with a movie is
kind of like close to being fresh. So in the
fifties or high forties, they'll try really really hard to
(08:09):
improve the score. And you know, obviously we can't change anything.
We don't write the reviews, but they'll go through and
they'll try and find reviews that we didn't include that
are fresh or positive, and almost always like those are
not from professional critics. They'll be some you know, random
magazine or radio station or something. We're like, well, that
(08:31):
doesn't count. That's not one of our critics, so we
can't add that. But then they'll also go through read
all the rotten reviews and come back and say, like,
this one's fresh, and this one's fresh. You rated it wrong,
And in those cases, you know, we'll take a second look,
and in some cases it is wrong. We actually created
tools for the critics to submit themselves, and it's even
(08:52):
possible where we're like, hm, it does look like it
should be fresh, and we'll go back and ping the
critic and then they'll you know, say, oh yeah, like
it's fresh or rotten or whatever. And so studios will
try really really hard to change your score, especially if
it's something like you know, it's fifty nine percent and
ends up being you know, rotten. But if it was
sixty percent to be fresh, that's like they'll fight very
(09:15):
very hard at that point. And I imagine, I mean,
it's been a long time since we ran it, Like
we sold it in two thousand and four, it's been
fourteen years ago. But from what I've heard, it's this
still happens now, and it's I imagine it will always happen.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Yeah, and also yeah, I was a question I was
going to have for you two, was you know what
what is considered a professional critic? Because you mentioned you know,
you have you know, different radio stations or your hell
even even me, you know, and they're probably like, you know,
we don't care what Dave has to say about about
a movie, you know what I mean. And it's just
that that's why I always wondered, you know, because you know,
(09:51):
with with with media the way it is nowadays, you know,
anybody can start a podcast or a Twitter Twitter account
or a YouTube channel, you know it. And that's where
you have to ask yourself, your word, you draw a
line between a professional critic and a non professional critic.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Right, I mean when we started their word oh, podcasts,
as if I remember correctly, we have rules that don't.
I haven't looked recently, so I have no idea if
they're the same. But back then, it'd be like ideally
you would have to have a certain amount of reach,
and it could be online or magazine or newspaper or
(10:37):
television or whatever, as well as a certain number of
reviews that you would do every year, because it wouldn't
be you know, an obvious sign is if you did
like one review a year, then you're you're pretty much
not a professional critic. It doesn't matter what your reaches.
We also would include things like, oh, if you are
part of a professional critics society, so like LA Film
(11:01):
Critics Society or New York or you know, things like that.
So we had different criteria of what we considered a
professional critic. And the thing is anyone can still rate.
So it's just that are you in a pool of
you know, a couple hundred people or are you in a
pool of you know, millions of people?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, and then that's a that's a good point, you know,
because you know, reach, I guess it is technically subjective
because I you know, I see people who have Twitter
followers who were who have maybe six figures of Twitter followers,
but their actual reach, their actual engagement is so low,
and you kind of wonder where how that, you know,
did they buy the followers? Did they take over someone
(11:38):
else's account, and this is just kind of stagnant.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's definitely an issue, and I
I haven't looked, but I don't know if they actually
have professional critics that are primarily through Twitter or podcasts.
I think most of the critics usually have some site
or something where they you know, they're a full review
is printed or you know, online so that way users
(12:05):
can click over and read it.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah, like you know, like like Richard Roper and like
Roger Ebert.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
You know, well Rodger Riebert obviously he's ceased, but he
still has the website ut where you know, he has
a critic circle and stuff.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
So you know, as we talked about, you know, the
unfair skew and stuff like that, I wanted to ask
your reaction, you know a couple I think when was
it when Batman versus Superman came out? I know there
was some kind of backlash from fans. I don't know
if you if you ever heard about this or saw this,
but basically they were saying that the critics were always
being unfair to DC movies. Uh, it was it was
(12:40):
Batman versus Superman, and then it was Suicide squad.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
You know when stuff like that happens and you start
to see this like online reaction, whether it be from
like fans or something. You know, generally speaking, there's rotten tomatoes.
Like ever pay attention to stuff like that. Do they
ever say like, oh, maybe you know, maybe there is
a skew or at all, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
I mean, this all happened again after we've sold it,
But I believe there's a point in time when, I mean,
we had controversy even way back when we were running it,
but not as much because user reviews weren't. We introduced that,
but it wasn't as big a part of the site
as it is now. I remember, I think it was
Dark Knight was very very high, highly rated, and there's
(13:27):
like a few critics that gave rotten ratings and I
think they were getting like death threats or something to
a point where, yeah, it was like a big problem
for them. And there are even cases where there are
critics who will, as far as we know, purposely give
a rating opposite of everyone else just to essentially affect
(13:48):
the Tomatometer score. I think that happened recently with the Ladybird,
And there's a Creder, it was like a perfect hundred percent,
and then one critic gave it a rotten even though
his review should have been considered afresh and was specifically
because he was like, this is not one hundred percent
movie in his opinion. As far as d C, I,
from what I had read, like users were actually like
(14:12):
Rotten Tomatoes hates DC movies, which was funny because at
the time Ron Tomatoes was owned by Warner Brothers, which
owns DC. You know, like if it was going to
have any favoritism, it would actually you would imagine it
would be four DC. And even now I think under
it's owned by Fandango, but I think that's even I
think Warner brother still owns a decent chunk of it.
(14:36):
And yeah, and for DC movies, you know, outside of
Wonder Woman, recently, critics tend to be harder on them,
and there's a pretty big difference from the critic score
and the user's score. And in that case, you kind
of have to, you know, when you're like deciding about
(14:57):
whether or not you should see the movie you should see,
you should think about do you tend to agree more
with the critics or the or the general moviegoer when
the boat when they both agree, like it's both saying
fresh or both saying run, it's very very accurate when
they disagree, and you'll get that. When it's like an
art house movie, you can have tritis giving a very
(15:19):
high score and users giving a much lower score, and
vice versa. You know, when it's a comedy or or
you know, like a DC movie, critics can give a
low score and users can give a much much higher score.
The other thing that you have to consider is two things. One,
critics have to see everything. That's why they're professional critics,
(15:41):
and so that's why that score. I think. You know,
critics do have a bias towards more art house, indie drama,
you know, that kind of stuff than an average moviegoer.
But they see everything, so it's easier to compare their
scores across. When it's users, well, number one, a user
doesn't even have to see the movie to rate it.
(16:01):
And this is true of any site that has user ratings.
I mean, I guess Amazon has verified purchases, but like
you go on IMDP, you go on rot Tomatoes, you
go on any of those sites, you'll see the user
rating is not really necessarily reliable. Even like yelp, you
can totally just go on there and put a rating
in for something that you've never been to. And even
(16:25):
assuming that that's only a small percentage of the total
number of user ratings, these users are willingly going and
paying their own money to see that movie, so they're
more predisposed to want to like it. And so when
the user rating is actually rotten, then it's pretty sick
to say that that movie is quite rotten. But when
(16:47):
it's the other way around, with the user critics are
giving it rotten and the users giving it fresh, then
you kind of have to be, like, am I the
kind of user that would like this kind of movie?
So I guess that's all the way ways to kind
of look at the scores.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, you know.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
And again with with Wonder Woman being the the one
DC movie that that's sort of been has has been
judged a little more you know, has been received a
little more better event by the critics and the public.
I think I'm fairly certain that Batman Versus Superman and
Suicide Squad, I'm fairly certain the critics hated both of
those and they fared a little bit better with the audiences.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
I think they definitely did it better. Yeah, for sure,
go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I was gonna say.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
On a side note, Patrick, I actually, uh, Suicide Squad
actually gave me an impetus for an idea for another podcast.
I actually was doing like a test.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Version of it.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
And you know, I was after I saw Suicide Squad.
I was with some friends of mine. We were just
talking back and forth, and I actually got the idea
to start another podcast where basically I just you know
in the movie business, when you're when you have a
bad script or you know, it's called this is a
total rewrite, Like I'd give it. You know, if if
I came in your office, Patrick, you were the studio
head and you were like, look, look, Bullis this is terrible.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
This is a total rewrite, page one rewrite, I would, Uh.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
That was the idea for the podcast, is I would
actually take a movie that is sort of not done
so well and how would I have written it? And
so that's actually in the next phase of.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Something I'm going to launch probably sooner than later.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
But I've done some test versions of it just to
see how people played out, which is which is also
by the way, just something cool you could do.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
With the media we have have nowadays, you can do
like test versions and stuff.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
You know.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
So it was actually pretty cool. But but I just
wanted to mention that as like a side note.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
Oh that sounds cool. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
So but but I'm sorry I interrupted. What were you
going to say?
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Oh no, I was. I was saying, Yeah, I'm pretty
sure in both of those cases, the user scores are
a lot higher. And now from what I've been seeing,
there's actually almost like an anti Marble, anti Disney kind
of contingent that are I believe, trying to push the
user scores down for like Marvel movies.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Yeah, it's it's kind of like another kind of fandom,
kind of like gang word type thing, you know. Uh so,
and I just going back to the film critics.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I want to mention this too.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
You know, we talked about they see everything because they
have to just by the nature. But also they they
have to dissect the movie. So I always say this,
you can dissect the movie with a surgeon scalpel or
a machete. When you dissected with a surgeon scalpel, you
have to discuss, you know, not only the performances, but
the writing, the lighting, the direction, everything, And that's where
you go through and you say, hey, what we know,
(19:34):
what is all this stuff?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
You know what? What is the good?
Speaker 4 (19:36):
The bad, the ugly with a machete. You're just kind
of saying, look, I didn't like it, and that's that.
M So I think that's why critics. I think the
critics score like we were just saying that's you know again,
why why would weigh a little bit more than say,
you know, just having some person with the random podcast,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (20:04):
Right right right. I think the other thing that a
lot of times people get like misunderstand about Round Tomatoes is,
at least when we were running it, the way we
looked at it was the percentage score. The Tomato meter
is basically the percent chance that you'll like seeing a movie,
because what it is is it's like what percent critics
(20:27):
of the critics recommend seeing it? You know, so if
it's eighty percent, you could be that eighty percent that's
going to like it, or you could be the twenty
percent that's not going to like it. So You'll see
people who always coming out to me and they're like, yeah,
this movie was like ten percent, but I still like
them like, yeah, you're the ten percent that would like it,
or vice versa. Hey this movie is ninety percent, but
I didn't like it. I'm like, yeah, you're the ten
percent that wouldn't like it. And for the most part,
(20:50):
I feel like that makes a lot more sense because
we also show things like the average rating and stuff.
So a movie could be one hundred percent, but it's
average rating isn't necessarily a ten out of ten. It's
it could be you know, seven out of ten, where
everyone's like, yeah, it's not bad. I mean, it's not
like the greatest movie ever, but everyone agrees that it's
worth seeing, you know. Like typically Pixar movies will fall
(21:12):
under that. I mean I think they actually their abergrating
is also pretty high, but they're the kind of movies
that are close to universally like, yeah, you should probably
go see it, especially the early ones, like a Toy Story.
I think it was one hundred percent or I think
it is still one hundred percent, and it's the kind
of movie that back then everyone is like, yeah, this
is worth checking out. I imagine something like Matrix. I
(21:33):
haven't looked at the score in a long time, but
it's probably when it came out. It's the kind of
movie that's like, yeah, you should probably go check it out.
So I think that's one thing that people look at
the Tomato meter and they just assume it means, you know,
kind of like aberge rating, and they're actually kind of different,
you know.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I was actually talking about friends. I started talking with
friends about some of the highest ranted movies of Rotten Tomatoes.
The Toy Story too, held the record for like the
perfect score until Lady Bird, and then.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Til that one critic we actually just mentioned.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
And now I think Black Panther has the record because
I think it's one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
Now still I think is pat did Paddington two or
whatever get a negative review? Because I was reading some
articles not too long ago where it was actually the
new record holder.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Really I actually didn't hear that.
Speaker 5 (22:23):
Let me let me let me look it up, see
if it's still one hundred percent. But yeah, no, it was,
which is weird because I never saw number one. I
don't even remember hearing anything about number one. But yeah,
now I'm actually curious to go see it, both of them,
because I'm like, how's up? Yeah, it's still one hundred percent.
That's set.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Paddington two, Yeah, oh wow.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
What is? Let me look at what and the audience
scores eighty nine percent. Let me see what patting In
one is ninety eight and eighty. I guess they're both
pretty high. Yeah. When I mean, at least for me
when I I saw the Trail, it's not exactly type
of movie, other though I do like animated stuff. I
just kind of in my brain just assumed it was
(23:06):
like a Garfield or something.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
So Patrick, now you mentioned what are your type of movies? Like,
what type of movies do you like watching? Who are
some of your favorite directors?
Speaker 5 (23:15):
So my two co founders, Steven and Send. Stephen was
our CTO. Sen was the creator and he handled the product.
They were big movie buffs. Steven watches he'll watch like
art house stuff like the Oscars type, you know, best pictures.
He'll watch all of them. Sen, I think, was a
little bit more into like sci fi, animation, kung Fu,
(23:38):
that kind of stuff, and I would say I'd fall
more on that towards Send, but even more casual. So
I'm like the summer blockbuster guy. I'll watch comic book stuff,
superhero stuff, sci fi fantasy, comedies, action adventure like that
tends to be my my thing. Like, honest, before they
(24:02):
went to ten movies a year on Best Picture, when
it was five, most likely I would have seen zero
out of five, and when they went to ten, I
might have seen like two, which is usually the ones
that are more like the sci fi fantasy kind of
ones that get thrown in there. Although I mean when
I do watch movies that are like highly rated that
are not in my typical kind of movies that I
(24:25):
would go do, yeah, generally I enjoyed. I just don't.
For me at least, I just don't seek it out.
I tend to watch the movies that because I like
to watch movies in theaters, and I want to watch
the movies that go well in theaters, So you know,
like the things like a Star Wars or Avengers or
you know something like that.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah, it's I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
And you know what has happened to me, is Patrick
is I've gotten kind of so burned out with the
superhero movies and the Star Wars and everything else that
you know, I honestly, and am becoming like, you know,
I'm thirty years old, and I'm becoming like n I'm
thirty going on ninety, where I just want to sit
home and watch an art house movie now, and I'm
just like, good, like, I'd just rather watch this or
(25:08):
or you know, some some French foreign film rather than
seeing all these new blockbusters, you know what I mean.
It's just I missed at that point man.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Yeah, I mean I actually watch a lot of movies.
I would say I watch probably like three two or
three movies a month in theaters. Maybe maybe you know,
kind of goes up and down depending on what's out there.
But yeah, like my cop enter is Steven and Send.
They're much more They're much bigger movie buffs. I was
(25:39):
more like the stewing company with friends doing something that
I felt was interesting. So I do like entertainment. I
do like movies, but they're much more like they can
talk deeply about directors and producers and all that stuff,
and I'm I'm like the surface level, like more like
average moviegoer. But I think in a way it kind
of worked for our company because I could kind of
come out at it from a different point of view
(26:02):
on things when we're talking about features and other things,
that I come at it much more like, Hey, I'm
a more like a regular user.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
Yeah, and that's good too, because as again we talked
about the craic versus the regular audience, you know, and
that that I think works out well just the same
because I mean, most people going to movies, they you know,
they they have they have their favorite parts of movies.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
They remember certain scenes.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
But I mean when you you know, have you ever
watched a movie with people who are in the film business,
you know what I mean, they start to us, they
start to talk about all these other sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
And that's why I tend to have different groups of friends.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Like if I have friends in the film business, I'll
go see a movie with them, and it's a whole
different experience and it's a whole different conversation before and
after than if.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
I go with my regular friends who have other jobs.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
Yeah, no, totally. It's it's super different when you watch
with them. And for me, I just a lot of
times I'm just like, do I get like end up
believing like I'm in the movie, you know, and whether
it's acting and story and plot and for me. Usually
at the end, I'll be like, like things like plot
(27:07):
holes and stuff driveing kind of crazy. But yeah, when
you're with movie business people, depending on who you're whip,
all we be looking at the cinematography or with acting
and all that kind of stuff, and generally like, as
long as the acting is passable, it doesn't bother me
too much. But every once in a while you will
see people who are like, oh man, they shouldn't be
(27:29):
in movies, or maybe they're just you know, very good
looking or something.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, it's uh not everything can be like the Room.
You know, have you seen the Room?
Speaker 5 (27:40):
No? But I yeah, I know, Okay, good what you're
talking about. Yeah, I'm actually kind of curious to see
both movies and you know, see how close it was
or you know, and there's a book about it and
everything too.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, just asked artists.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Yeah, in my opinion, path I would see in the
order like to watch the Room first and then watch
the disaster artists and then you'll, I think you'll appreciate
a little more.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Mm.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Yeah, that probably makes sense.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
So you did see all the all the fun parts
of it. So you know, Patrick, you ended up selling
Rotten Tomatoes and he sort of started to move on
a different project.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
So so what are you working on now?
Speaker 5 (28:23):
Uh So yeah, after we saw it, I went to
Asia for like nine years doing two different startups, and
then I came back and one of my friends that
I did my first company with before Rontaios, before Design
re Actor, this guy Lyle Fong. He he also did startups.
He did a company called Litheum Technologies that did you
know quite well, and we were just like talking about
(28:45):
maybe doing something together and decided to make a game.
So we're making Hubble Labs make mobile games. We just
launched our game a week ago called Storm the Gates
and it's like it's like a multiplayer like a game
you play with other people against other people. So it's
(29:06):
a player versus player kind of game that you play
on your phone. And it's a role playing game. You know,
you have a little character and you can get spells
and get items and gear and stuff like that. And
the reason why I'm doing it is it's actually a
super tough industry. It's very hits. Bas So the game
comes out, it could be a total bomb or it
could be a huge hit. It's not always easy to
(29:28):
tell what it's going to be or it can just
be very kind of average, And it's just because my
co founder and I have loved playing games since we
were little, Like I'm actually a bigger gamer than I am. Like, well, no,
I guess I do like games. I like movies, and
I like music. But as far as being hardcore, I'm
(29:48):
probably more hardcore as a gamer then on the movies.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
You mentioned you went to Asia for nine years. Was
it primarily in China.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
I went to China for three years, Hong Kong for six,
So I'm actually Chinese, but I was born in La
grew up in the States, so I was like, yeah,
you know, it'd be interesting to try and see what
it's like outside of the US. And I originally plan
on going for you know, like two or three years,
and next thing, you know, because I was doing companies
and everything, I just ended up staying there a lot longer.
(30:30):
And when I was in Hong Kong, I was actually
doing stuff in the entertainment industry where I was essentially
trying to make something kind of like a MySpace where
he was celebrities and artists over there to connect to
their fans. It was a lot of fun. Eventually it
didn't really get that big, unfortunately, but yeah, it was fun.
It is interesting because when I was doing that company
(30:51):
it's called a Lot of That Dad, we were much
more on the kind of like inside of the film business,
like working with actors and directors and producers and stuff
and being around them much more. Whereas when we were
doing Round Tomatoes, we were based up in the Bay Area,
you know, in this place called Emoryville, and so you know,
we were a tech company, but we weren't in San
Francisco or Silicon Valley. We were a movie site, but
(31:14):
we weren't in LA in Hollywood. So we kind of
were just happily working on the product, but we weren't
actually anywhere like connected with the movie industry. I mean,
even when we went to LA it was to meet
with marketing people to buy you know, to sell ads,
and we very rarely would ever interact with like a
director or an actor or a producer. I see.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
So, so you know, I was reading an article the
other day that basically said, you know, the future of
film is in China, not only just because of the
market share and the market size is obviously bigger than
anywhere else in the world, but also because you know,
they still have, you know, an interest in all of
these tempole movies where sometimes they bomb over here. The
biggest one, obviously is Warcraft Bombed over Here was a
(31:55):
massive hit in China that actually saved the movie, you know,
actually made its money back. So I mean, so when
you were over there, you know, Patrick, you know what
was was that your impressions? Did you see like a
thriving you know, like film business over there, and and
you and and people just saying, you know this, this right.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Here is the future.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
Well, it was growing rapidly while I was there. You know,
they're adding tons of theaters, and you know these are
large theaters and very because they're new, they're good quality theaters.
I mean when I first got there going to some
of these theaters, they were really old and junkie. But
it very quickly started having these like you know, multiplexes
and stuff being built into malls and stuff. And I
(32:34):
remember one time I was trying to go see some
random movie and it was literally like sold out completely
for like three or four hours, so I just had
to I had to come back later. I had to
buy a ticket for like ten pm or something and
come back hours later to see it. So it be
even though it's in China, it's not cheap, but it's
something that you know, people do. It's going on a
(32:56):
date or make an event out of it. I mean,
I guess it's not even that cheap here for a
lot of folks as far as you know, versus watching
at home. And in China. Originally there was a big
problem with piracy, so tons of movies would be pirated
onto DVDs and you could just buy them on the
street or whatever. That's how people would watch movies. And
then the theater going became much more of like a
(33:18):
real experience, and especially for these bigger movies, and censorship
was always an issue, so very few movies, like a
dozen movies a year could come from outside of China
into China. I think it's been more relaxed, and also
people are doing co productions, so they'll have some of it,
some money or some other thing come from China and
(33:39):
then it's like kind of guaranteed that it can play
in China. I think Iron Man three was like that,
and yeah, Looper, but I remember one time I was
watching one of the Harry Potter movies in China because
I didn't have time to go out of China to
watch it. And it was weird because like they would
(34:00):
re edit it. I mean I was reading this sub
or now I was listening to it in English and
there was Chinese subtitles, but I knew it was edited
because there was a cut where I'm like, this is
something that makes sense. I mean it literally was cut
like mid sentence. And so yeah, they were very limited
on what could get in, and they would censor stuff,
(34:22):
and I think, you know, something like Harry Potter which
has like you know, which is essentially you know, they
would censor more heavily. But yeah, now it's it's huge.
Just there's I think it's the second biggest like a
box office outside of the US, and so you're starting
to see a lot more movies that can potentially do
(34:43):
well there. I mean there was movies I think like
Star Wars doesn't do well there compared to the US.
But then there's movies like Warcraft or I imagine like
a Pacific rim or something like that. I think the
ones that are more special effects that don't require like
extensive knowledge of a the background of the movie work
quite well over there. I imagine DC movies probably do decently,
(35:07):
but I haven't really looked. And and and because it's
it's a subtitled, you know, bad acting and stuff is
harder to tell. Like if you watch a sub a movie,
a four movie subtile in English, if they aren't great
in their natural language, you can't really tell at all.
Like if I watch something you know from Japan, I'm
(35:27):
not gonna know. I mean, I can tell maybe if
they're acting badly, but not based on what they're saying.
And yeah, and so what you're starting to see now
is movies that are designed with China in mind as
a as a secondary market. So for instance, there's this
(35:48):
actor Daniel Wu who he was actually one of my
co founders in when I was doing My Alive Not
Dead that is getting much bigger in the US. He
got cast for he was in Warcraft. He's one of
the voices, and I think that was partly why I
did well in China. There was the one recently called
Geostom that I think did very badly in the US
(36:09):
and actually did decently in China. And I think because
they marketed as a Daniel Wu movie. And he's also
one of the main leads in the New tomb Raider movie.
So you're going to start seeing more of that where
they're specifically trying to cast or make decisions with China
in mind, like, not as a private market, but as
(36:31):
a very important secondary market.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Yeah, it is, and I think at some point, you know,
because I think it's it's right now it's US China
than Japan is the third, and I think Great Britain
is fourth. So I think at some point the first
two are going to flip, and maybe even the third
and the fourth because Japan has a declining population and
you know, et cetera, et cetera. But but I think,
you know, it'll end up being you know that way. Actually,
(36:56):
though we didn't talk about India and India, my friend,
I mean, that's that's destined. I mean, Bollywood produces more movies.
They've do you know, since we've been talking, Patrick, Bollywood
has made one hundred movies.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
I didn't know that, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Since we've been talking one hundred movies, I guarantee it. No,
but they produced more movies than anybody else bar none.
Then Hollywood and then the third is Nollywood, and but
I think eventually, I think China, with all the productions,
they're going to start catching up very very rapidly. I
saw somewhere that China's going to be spending like six
trillion in the next couple of years and infrastructure and
(37:33):
everything else.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
So you know, it's crazy, man, it is absolutely crazy.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
Mmmmm yeah. Another movie I just remembered was Transformers. I
think Transformers is another movie that does pretty well in China,
and I want to say they even they definitely cast
some like Chinese celebrities for like cameos and things like that.
And I think one of the movies, one of the
recent ones, was actually cast or like set in Hong
Kong for at least part of the movie. Yep, huh yeah.
(38:01):
So that's a good example of one where they're looking
very very heavily at China, probably as much or more
than us. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
It's kind of funny.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
I mean, I'm a huge, huge fan of of of
Asian culture, by the way, especially China and Japan. And
I liked how you differentiated between China and Hong Kong
because because you know, you know, they I mean because
because literally Hong Kong up until nineteen ninety nine or
two thousand was under British rule, and then you had,
(38:33):
you know, China's slowly been you know, trying to sort
of say, okay, well you know you're.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
A part of us, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (38:39):
And then you and and so I just I caught
that I actually no, no, And I know exactly where you're.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Coming from with that, because it is uh.
Speaker 4 (38:47):
You know, I've had friends who go over there and
they even say the same thing, like you know, their
their their parents were Chinese or or Chinese, they came
over here, were born in America, but they went back
over and they always differentiate between you.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Know, China and Hong Kong.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
That's why I always wondered if transfers was going to
be set in like Beijing or Sichuan or something like that,
would the Chinese government be okay with them destroying the
whole city, but Hong Kong, you know, tightly packed, maybe
a little more leafway, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
I I think they would be open to doing stuff
in China as well, and I think China would be
open to it too, But I imagine it's easier to
get things done in Hong Kong because I think the
Hong Kong film industry is pretty you know, mature, and
there's I imagine it's it's easier to get the things
(39:36):
you need, like you know, support staff for your film,
you know, anything like that versus in China. I think
it's it's a lot younger. And also in Hong Kong
a lot of people speak English, so I imagine it's it's
much much easier to film there than in China.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah, I was actually gonna ask you do you speak Mandarin?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Flowly, We'll be right back after a word from our
sponsor and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
Conversationally. But I don't, and I don't speak Kennedy's.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Okay, So well, I know because because Cantonese is mainly
in Hong Kong, right.
Speaker 5 (40:19):
Yeah, and also Gwangzo like uh, the part of China
close to Hong Kong.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Okay, Yeah, I know. I know manner was supposed is
actually sposed to be like the natural language. And I
know I have friends who went over to uh to
China to teach, like Peter Marvel's been on the podcast
and uh, you know, they they've they've had to start
taking Mandarin classes to make sure there's a you know,
at least so they can get around and stuff. But
but you know, uh, you know, Patrick, I know we
we've kind of gone over.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
The time limit. I know you you're extremely busy.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
So just in closing, Patrick Gill, is there anything we
get a chance to talk about that maybe you want
to talk about right now or anything you want to
say to put a period at the end of this
whole conversation.
Speaker 5 (41:00):
Let me think, Uh, I guess as far as Ron
Tomatoes goes, for me at least, I'm just I'm happy
it's still around and it's going strong. I think actually
it makes a lot of sense for it to be
with Mandango specifically because you know, one of the biggest
(41:22):
things we always had was this like love hate relationship
with the studios. Yet we were dependent like they were.
Like half our revenue came from advertising, so we're very
dependent on the studios to scrive. And something like Fandango
or like a Netflix is what I always thought, you know,
(41:43):
made the most sense for like a Ron Tomatoes, where
the money that you make are from the people that
you're serving the best, which is the users like studios,
you're helping them half the time let's say, but users
you help all the time, regardless of the movie's fresher rout,
and you're still helping them, and so being able to
(42:04):
generate the revenue from those users is has always been
the best way of doing it. And we're running it.
We're a very small team. We were like seven people
most of the time. We didn't have the ability at
that time to go out and sell movie tickets or
you know, rent DVDs or rent videos or stream videos.
But it's always been kind of like the natural fit
(42:25):
in my opinion, getting users, getting the money directly from
the people you're serving all the time. So that's those
are my main thoughts, you know, and also for people
who are looking at ron Tomatoes, you know, look at
all the different types of ratings within ron Tomatoes. Look
at the critics tomatometer score as well as the average rating,
(42:48):
look at the users tomatometer score as well as the
average rating. And if you look at all four of those,
you're going to have a pretty good idea of whether
or not you know it's the movie for you to see.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Oh, Patrick, one more question, Where do you find you
out online?
Speaker 5 (43:03):
I believe be up at Rotten doubt so rotten from
Rotten Tomatoes doubt do o ubt. I used to be
a very big no Doubt fan, so I just kind
of merged the two together. And that's kind of the
username I use for like Instagram, Twitter, everywhere I see.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
I actually thought it was like a double entendre for
the name, like you know, like you know, the movie's
rotten and your doubting, like you know what I mean,
like a rotten doubt, Like I doubt that's.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Rotten, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
Yeah, Well that's the other thing I liked about it
was it's kind of like a double negative.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
So it's kind of like, yeah, see got me thinking,
So it kind of it worked. Yeah, But Patrick Lee,
thank you so much for coming on, sir.
Speaker 5 (43:45):
Yeah, thanks for having me. Dave.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at any film uscle
dot com.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Forward Slash eight No.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Two, and if you haven't already, please head over to
Filmmaking podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review
for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Thank you again so much for listening to guys.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive,
Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at
Indie Film hustle dot com. That's I N D I
E F I L M h U S T l
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