IFH 813: Building Films from Scratch: Mastering Microbudget Movie-Making with Evan Kidd

Evan Kidd is a passionate indie filmmaker who believes great stories don’t need big budgets—just big heart. In this episode, he shares how he created his feature film Son of Clowns using the resources he already had: friends, favors, and faith in the process. With a deep respect for collaboration, Evan emphasizes the importance of building a reliable team, staying grounded, and keeping ego out of the equation. His filmmaking philosophy leans heavily on authenticity, transparency, and making the most of real-world environments, often embracing the beautiful chaos that unfolds on set. Throughout the conversation, Evan offers wisdom for creatives struggling with fear and perfectionism. He encourages filmmakers to stop waiting for ideal circumstances and start where they are, even if that means running sound themselves or rewriting scenes to fit accessible locations. “Filmmaking is just a big game of improvisation,” he says, reminding us that adaptability and passion are more powerful than money. His journey is a heartfelt lesson in making art that matters—without asking permission.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
and thirteen. Cinema should make You forget. You're sitting in
a theater, Roman Polanski.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
I am your humble.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of
the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into
a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for
independent filmmakers to make money with their films from predatory
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(00:59):
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and there needs to be a change. The future of
independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker or the film entrepreneur.
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(01:42):
want to order it, just head over to www Dot
filmbiz book dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Enjoy
today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Our next guest. We talk a lot about team building
and how do you find those reliable people, how do
you find that you know you can collaborate with, you know,
And we also talk a lot about resource base film making,
you know, aka the Rodriguez lists, because you shouldn't make
no if you're gonna make a film, I'm not talking
about a student film. If you're gonna make a film nowadays,

(02:14):
and you know you don't have a bunch of money
in the bank. You know, you're not gonna be able
to find some VC who's just gonna, you know, money,
drop a million dollars in your bank account. What you
should do is, you know, use what resources you have
to make a film. Don't make a colossal space movie
or some action movie like a La John Wu. It's

(02:36):
just gonna end up blowing up in your face. And
I and take it from personal experience, it has blown
up in my face before when I've tried to just
shoot for the moon and you end up with a
with a half done movie that the effects don't look
good enough. You know, a movie that comes to mind
is Primer. If you've ever seen Primer, you know, it's

(02:56):
it's a whole movie about time travel and the guy
shot at Shane Krutz out of for like seven thousand dollars,
and it's it's very well done. It's a very cerebral movie.
But it just shows what you can do with the
right resources and the right script. But speak of the
right resources and the right script. You know, my next guest,
we're gonna be talking about just that. We're gonna be
talking about all of this stuff and it is a

(03:18):
phenomenal phenomenal for conversation with guests. Evan Kidd Hey, Evan,
thanks off coming on the show. Hey, thanks for having
me Man, Hey, my pleasure. Evan. You know, it's a
question I always ask everybody. It's a question I just
always begin every interview with, and that question is, Evan,
what got you started in the film industry.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
I think just a love of the craft of cinema.
You know, It's it's that simple for me, as you
know the other filmmakers have said this before, but you know,
I'm really no different.

Speaker 5 (03:48):
Like I grew up around it.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
We watched a lot of movies in my house growing up,
and it was kind of the default. If something wasn't
going on, you know, parents would put on a movie,
we'd watch it, and I just kind of grew up
in that culture.

Speaker 5 (04:01):
You know.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
I ended up stealing my dad's VHS camera a lot
of times when I was like three and four years old,
and I would you know, shoot stuff around the house
and the pets and you know, stuff around the neighborhood.
So it kind of just grew really naturally. And then
when I went, you know, into high school, there was
like this little uh you know, film in the morning
announcements class, which was really cut and dry, but gave

(04:22):
you access to you know, tripods and editing software and
stuff like that. So I would kind of use that
after hours and do what I wanted, and I thought
that was cool. And then that was around the time
YouTube is really taking off, and so, you know, I
think all those things kind of gelled together to propel
me into you know, pursuing it once I got to
college and kind of from there it's been history. So
it's you know, been pretty natural. But I think it's

(04:43):
also been a direct correlation to how you know, over
the years, technology has really allowed more people into the
film business. You know, I've never had a huge inkling
to just go and direct you know, Avengers five or whatever.

Speaker 5 (04:56):
For me, it's always just.

Speaker 4 (04:57):
Been about telling a compelling story with you know, resources
around me, whether that be you know, casting crew or
just you know the technology that you know, so many
of us have access to.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, you know, very true. And you know, I remember
those big VHS cameras. Yeah see see, you and I
are kind of sort of around the same age, I mean,
but you know, and sometimes some of my guests are
a little bit older than I am, so you know,
they didn't have that. They had this like the Super Ring. Hey,
that's what they remember when they were a kid, you know.
And and guys like us, we had the you know
those big old it looks like a big boom box

(05:28):
you put on your shoulder. You couldn't use it for
more than five minutes or you know, you'd kill your
back and your neck, and you know, it looked like
a bazooka and uh, you know, and then now they
went to many DV but yeah, you know, I remember
when YouTube first was taking off in like two thousand
and four, two thousand and five. Yeah, and I remember
just being blown away. And I remember, you know, people
were just putting up different stuff and it was still
on the you know, nobody really talked about it until

(05:51):
a few years later, and then all of a sudden,
it was like this freaking juggernaut exactly.

Speaker 5 (05:54):
I mean I remember when it first, you know, launched off.
I was like, we can put online video on the Internet.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
And you know, that time, my parents believed I was
still a dial up So that concept was in like
two thousand and four, super foreign to me. And so
you know, I would only watch YouTube literally at school
and we weren't even supposed to do that. So, you know,
for me, it was like technology was just slowly emerging
out of the shell. And then, you know, give it
a few months, you know, most everyone including my family,

(06:19):
got you know, DSL and you know, faster internet, and
everything kind of started catching up to what you could do.
And for me that was extremely exciting. And I remember
thinking I could just make a movie and put it
on YouTube, like, holy shit, that's crazy, like and you know,
for me, that didn't even seem within the realm of possibility.
But you know, like I was saying, given a little
bit of technology, I think that's half the reason I'm

(06:41):
able to do what I do and so many others.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, totally agree. And you know, I actually want to
get into that too, about you know, making your film
Son of Clowns and you know, working with all the
resources you have around you. But I wanted to ask
really quickly, did you go to film school?

Speaker 5 (06:55):
I did.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
Yeah, I went to East Carolina University a couple of
years ago. I graduated from that in Greenville, North Carolina,
and it was a great program. I really enjoyed it
definitely taught me a lot I think it was a
lot more of a technical program in terms of how
to operate a camera, cut your own stuff like that
than it was you know, truly trying to craft you know,
screenplays and all that.

Speaker 5 (07:14):
There was screenwriting classes, but I kind of think it
geared more to that.

Speaker 4 (07:18):
So I did a lot of learning on my own
in terms of you know, the story structure and all that. Like,
it was definitely there, but I think if you really
really wanted to get the full you know, breadth of it,
I would talk to my professors and they'd be like,
you know, here's this resource. You got to look at
it on your own hours just because it wasn't built
into every part of the curriculum. But I would definitely
recommend it. It was a great program and really cut
my teeth there for sure. You know, met a lot

(07:39):
of the people who would end up helping me make
Son of Clowns and other films like that. But yeah,
definitely you think that is you know, important in it,
and you know, at the very least it gave me
the know how because I also do a lot of
documentary work and so a lot of designs in those situations,
I don't have as big of a crew as I would,
you know, my narrative stuff, and like, you know, shooting
something last last month, and I was literally the only

(08:02):
crew member. And it was kind of by design, like
if I really dug around, I could have you know,
probably got a camera operator or sound designer or stuff
like that. But it was just such a you know,
sporadic opportunity I didn't have time. And so in those occasions,
I'm really glad I went to film school because otherwise
I don't know if I'd know how to operate a camera,
run sound, you know, kind of do all those technical things.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
So yeah, you know, that's a question I usually ask.
You know, certain people have come on and they said, Dave,
film school is a waste of time. Some people have
come on and said, hey, film school was phenomenal to me,
and you know, and it's it's something I always go
back to because you know, our experience is your perception
equals reality, and you know, if your perception of if
something is you know, skewed, or something is perception, if

(08:44):
something is hey, listen, my experience was terrible, you know,
and my perception of it is it was totally worthless,
you know. You know, so I just ask people to
be honest, you know what I mean, and if and
and I always like hearing people's different experiences. I know,
my listeners like hearing different people's experiences about this stuff
because I think it's that's critical, you know what I mean.
And it's sort of something you've touched on with what

(09:05):
you just said is also something critical, and that is
building a team. And I always ask people, you know,
how did you build your team? You know, where does
your where did you guys meet?

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (09:12):
You know, and and you met your whole team through
film school?

Speaker 5 (09:15):
Yeah, most of them. I did meet a lot of them,
a couple.

Speaker 4 (09:18):
Of folks after the fact, but you know, I think
it was that network that really makes film school and valuable,
you know. And I've heard a lot of people say,
you don't need film school. I've heard a lot of
people say, oh, yeah, you got to do it, or
else you're screwed. I kind of fall in the middle
of the road thinking, you know, obviously I'm a product
of a film school and I went to one, but
at the same time, it was a film school that
I think, really, you know, it kind of forced me

(09:40):
to do a lot of outside learning outside of the program.
So I think I kind of good, got a good
breadth of you know, a lot of different options. You know,
Like I said, I there's this story I always tell
I made this documentary called spaz Out a couple of
years ago and the project was, you know, out of
this documentary class I was taking an undergrad.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
I'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
And basically you had to make this ten minute documentary
over the course of about two months.

Speaker 5 (10:13):
And it was the story.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
You know I was telling, was about this underground punk
roy music scene and there was you know.

Speaker 5 (10:18):
Doing shows out of this warehouse.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
It was super legal, but there was a lot of
you know heart in the you know, people trying to
make music happen and it and to me, it felt
like a bigger story. So I, you know, wanted to
make something longer. And we're talking to my professor and
he was like, why do you want to make it
a bigger story? And I was like, just because I
feel like that's the best way to tell it. And
he was like, if that's your reason, then go for it.
And you know, I think that has stayed with me

(10:40):
because a lot of times I want to make projects
that maybe aren't originally thought of or aren't originally you know,
in the you know, quote unquote guidelines of something. And
I think film school is a you know, great launching pad.
So you know, I guess I got a little off track,
but I would say, you know, coming back around, you know,
I think it really depends for each person. Like if
you are going to go into extreme debt and you know,

(11:03):
you know, it might kind of mess up your trajectory
for the next couple of years, and you're pretty self taught,
you watch YouTube videos and stuff like that, you may
not need that kind of technical guidance. But you know, again,
if you want the resources and the crew base and
the you know, internships and stuff like that, you're not
going to get that through YouTube tutorials. So I think
it really is kind of something each person needs to

(11:24):
weigh individually.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah, that's that's very true. A friend of mine, you know,
he went to uh I think he went to n YU,
and you know, Morton Scrissese comes in to talk to
a class like once a semester or whatever, and you know,
when he walked in, he was like, holy shit, Morten
scrisseg just walked in the Root and was like, Hey,
everybody want to talk about film, And it's like, who's
gonna who's gonna say no? First off? And you know

(11:46):
what I mean, but it's uh, but it's that, you know,
that's the benefit he got from going to n YU
or you know, and if you go to USC, I
think Steven Spielberg comes in like once a semester as well.

Speaker 5 (11:55):
Yeah, and I mean that's invaluable. I mean, if you're
able to get that, how do you pass it up?
Like you said?

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, And but you know, it's you know, that's something
I want to talk about too, is you know, building
your team, you know, and using those resources around you
to actually make your film. And I want to ask
you about building your team. So you know, Evan, when
you were building your team, I don't maybe you did,
maybe you didn't, But I don't know if anybody really
goes out with that mindset of, Hey, you know what
I'm going to go today, look for a team that

(12:22):
I could put together. I think it sort of happens naturally,
It happens organically, and eventually, you know, something clicks in
your mind where you go, hey, I could work with
this person as a producer, you know what I mean.
And I think you know that's how people sort of
build teams, as I found doing this podcast and even
my own experiences in making stuff. So you know, what
are some of the qualities, Evan, that you find with

(12:43):
your team that that when you were sort of putting
them together when you when you you know, may may
may put that team together to make Sun of Clowns.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
Your team is your backbone, and you are pretty much.

Speaker 5 (12:55):
As made as your team is made.

Speaker 4 (12:57):
I guess I would say, uh. And so you know
it's like a team. You're the coach, but you want
to pick your players. And when you're making something like
the way we made my feature film Son of Clowns,
for example, you know, that was the biggest crew I've
ever you know, had the opportunity to work with up
to this point. And you know, certain days were better
than others. You know, certain days we'd have very small crew,

(13:18):
like six seven people. Other days we'd have a bigger crew,
a lot of pas, you know, probably fifteen twenty. And
so most everyone in that crew worked for free.

Speaker 5 (13:29):
No one made money.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
And that's the thing that's tricky because when you're in
micro budget cinema, like, no one cares. Before I made
the film, no one cared if I made some of clowns.
I was the only person that cared, you know, the
actors and the crew, but no one else cares. And
that's the kind of rough truth that you need to
get around, is that you know, when you're making your
micro budget, no one cares. And once you kind of

(13:52):
accept that, and once you say, okay, people will care
once we make it. But like, up until this point,
you don't have investors. You're really bankrolling on your on
credit card, which is what I did. Basically, My mentality
was fine people who want to a work because in
that time, the North Carolina film incentives just crashed because
of some stupid politics and so a lot of people

(14:12):
were out of jobs and a lot of people were
kind of sitting around anyway. So I was like, well,
instead of sitting around, let's all do something.

Speaker 5 (14:19):
You know. I took a hit from that, and a
lot of other people did, because.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
By day I do a lot of crew work, you know,
ac stuff like that, and so you know, for me,
it was kind of a situation where let's make the
best out of, you know, something that sucks and then
you know, I would say on the second thing, when
you find crew that are passionate, grab those people because
those are the people you want with you on the battlefield,
so to speak. Those people will you know, stay the

(14:44):
extra hour. Those people won't mind if you do lunch
an hour or two late. You know, those people really
just want to get your story. And I'm a big
believer in you know, quote unquote working for free. Yeah,
no one got paid. I definitely didn't get paid. I
went to the Red but you know, it was my movie,
so I totally understand that. But every other aspect of
this production, I said, let me not make it so

(15:05):
it costs people money. Okay, so let me fill up
the gas tanks, let me get all their meals covered,
you know, let me give them something great for their
real Let me actually publicize this film, because I think
the thing that happens and why a lot of people
are hesitant to do free work is because they've been
burned in the past. And I've had it happen to
me when you you know, work on something for free.

(15:27):
I think a lot of times there's this kind of
you know, hesitant notion, which I totally understand. Like I
do a lot of crew work for a living. That's
how I make a lot of my money. And for me,
like I will work on a free project, but I
have to know where it's going. Will it be sent
out to festivals? Because the last thing anyone wants is
to work on a film and just have it get
thrown up on YouTube, get about one hundred videws and

(15:48):
then no one cares. You know, people want to know
they're part of a project that's going to at least
try to go somewhere. Like everyone knows it's not guaranteed,
but at the very end of the day, there has
to be some effort being made. So tried to be
as transparent about that possible with like, you know, the
whole cast and crew. You know, I sent them emails
for months and months after the fact. You know, we
got into this film festival. We're gonna submit here, you know,

(16:10):
stuff like that. You know, give everyone their footage promptly
so they can put it on a reel that you know,
that kind of thing. Just just be a decent person.
You know, if you can't pay people, try to, you know,
make all the rest of the filmmakers who don't have
a lot of money look good.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, and you know that that that's something I agree
with too, is I think people have been burning in
the past by free work and it's sort of you know,
maybe they've worked for free for you know, a person
and it's never been reciprocating, so they kind of say,
you know, I I you know, now I'm in the
hole now, so to speak. And you know, I got
into a friend of mine and actually teaches you know,
film at a high school, and he and I gotten
this whole thing before because we were talking about free work,

(16:49):
and you know, some people say do it, some people
say don't do it, and basically we all The thing
that we have a problem with was when I was
making my student front films, I I said, you know,
I need some some help, and some people offer to
work for free. Well, they would come on and then
they would sort of act like they don't need to
be professional or act like they need to actually do
their job the right way, because hey, you're not paying

(17:11):
me anything, so what the hell is the difference?

Speaker 4 (17:14):
Yeah, And I think that's the reason a lot of
these people have bad experiences is because there's a lack
of professionality on some free sets. I'm not going to say, all,
but you know, the way I coordinated my set, I
would say, and a lot of people told me it
ran very professionally, and a lot of people said they
were shocked, you know both you know, day players who
just had you know, one scene, they were just come

(17:35):
in and out, and you know, people who are there for.

Speaker 5 (17:37):
The long haul too.

Speaker 4 (17:38):
A lot of people said that, and you know, I
guess I could take it as a compliment, but for me,
I want that to be the bar like I don't
want I don't want that to be the exception to
the rule, you know.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, and that's the other thing too. You always make
sure your set's running good. But again that's having that
team right, you know, making sure you have a producer
who you know and if that person's going to be
the producer. You know, do you have a UPM you know,
do you you know have a location manager? Do you
have you know a solid first a d uh?

Speaker 5 (18:09):
You know?

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Do you have a solid cinematographer? Usually? What you know,
when what I've come across is when someone's going to
make a project and they have people work for free,
usually there's one sexy selling point. And what I mean
by that is usually they have some amazing location they
can use, or you know, some kind of you know, uh.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
You know.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
For instance, had a friend of mine make a film
and he ended up having a world class cinematographer on there. Uh,
and that was the selling point, going, look, you know,
the film's gonna look good, and you know because we
have this cinematographer. And people were actually more interested in
enjoying the project because they said, hey, if this prop
person is a part of it, you know what I mean,
then it's gonna be good.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
Definitely, I would say, you know, for us, maybe it's
kind of half a miracle that we pulled it off.
You know, I never had an ad for any of
these days, so I mean it was I lost my
voice so much just because I was doing double duty,
you know, with the directing and especially there's a scene
in here where we had like forty extras and majority
of them were you know, kids under the age of eight.

(19:09):
So you know, like I said, trying to get that
many people at it was a party scene, so there
was a noise and a whole bunch of stuff coordinated is
very difficult. But I'm a firm believer. If you know,
you put something to mind, it truly can happen as
corny as it sounds. Would I do it that way
againified a choice? No, But you know, I think a
lot of times in micro budget cinema, you just got

(19:31):
to treat it like it's almost its own separate thing
from normal filmmaking, because.

Speaker 5 (19:36):
You know it well.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
I say that not as a slight to it, but
you know, when you get put in these situations like,
for example, another thing that happened during filming, our sound
guy got sick on the third day, and you know,
thanks to going to ECU, and you had to run
a boom. None of our pas had touched it. And
I was like, okay, it was our shortest day.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
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and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
I'm gonna have to run this boom. And I was
not excited about it. But it was like everyone came out.
We had this restaurant cleared out, and it was the
only day we were gonna be able to get in
this restaurant, and if we didn't shoot, we're going to
lose the location. And you know, we waste a whole
bunch of people's time, and blah blah blah, so I
mean it's really just rolling with the punches, and you know,
we pulled it off.

Speaker 5 (20:25):
I made it work again. Would I choose to do that.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
No, But I think when you do work in micro budget,
you just kind of have to be flexible. And you know,
definitely if anyone has ego, I mean, check that shit
at the door, because that does not even fly. Like,
you know, had I been on a normal set, there
would be no way in hell I would touch a
boom pole.

Speaker 5 (20:46):
But in a.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
Situation like that where you're making your movie, you know,
for me, this was like one of the most personal
stories I've ever told, you know, in a lot of ways,
and so you know, for me, I just wanted to
get the thing made and so I knew, okay, I
got to bite the bullet do this, and I'm just
kind of rolled the punches.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, Ego is something that is very dangerous, and you know,
I've I've been a part of some projects, man, where
some people's egos were so unbelievable. And you know, I'm
usually sort of the bad cop, like I'll be the guy,
and I don't mean I don't you know, just you know,
you don't fight fire a fire right away. I just
sort of get to take them aside and say, hey, guy,
you know, maybe we should just tone this down. I

(21:25):
think some people, you know, and you know, I mean,
I've met some people who were just I don't know
where they get their ego from. It's it's almost like
somebody when they were younger told them that they were
so special and so talented, and they can everybody else
can just go fuck themselves and then you and then
they come to these film sets and it's like, hey,
I'm here, let me you know, real quick, little funny story.

(21:45):
I went to a a friend of mine's film set
and it was about that it was a horror movie,
it was a slasher film, and there was this PA
that was walking around who thought that he was God's
gift to film and thought he was so de rel
you know, thought he was so misused by being a PA.
And I said, hey, you know, you know, what's this
guy's deal. I went to shake his hand, he's kind
of looked at me, and I was like, what the fuck?

(22:05):
And and later on somebody said, oh, yeah, he doesn't
want to be a PA. And the director knows he's
got an ego problem and just made him a Pa,
it's sort of like a punishment type deal. And yeah,
I mean it was just I said, why doing this
fire the guy? Why do you even have you know,
I'd rather have nobody and just put you know, tape
on the floor and say, hey, come in here. This way,
this ways the craft, this way is the set. Well,

(22:27):
this way is the group.

Speaker 5 (22:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
So it's like, well, you know, the ego just made
it just. I mean, I I you know, I've encountered
that before and it really, it really is so toxic
because it starts to spread to other people too.

Speaker 5 (22:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:38):
I mean when I got out of film school, I
worked on Shark Tank for a little bit, and you know,
I was a camera pa, and I kind of worked
my way up a little bit of that world.

Speaker 5 (22:47):
You know, it's not really a world.

Speaker 4 (22:48):
I love hanging out in a lot reality but I've
done a lot of it, and you know, I don't
think there's anything wrong with it, but I do see actually,
believe it or not, a lot of ego in reality TV.
And this is on the crew side, not in all shows.
And actually Shark Tank is not my example. They were
actually very lovely.

Speaker 5 (23:04):
But I worked on.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Some other shows after that, and you know, I saw
a lot of these like reality directors. Man, they like
thought they were God's gift to Earth, And I'm just like, man,
you're you're directing like a fake fight between people on
like a TLC show, like what like you know, and

(23:25):
I mean there's nothing wrong with that, but I mean,
you know, you're gonna get what you kind of deserve
gossip wise, I guess by your crew if you're acting,
you know, just like an idiot and like you know,
telling people, Oh, you don't know who I am. I
did this pilot of this. I'm just like, well, I
mean half this stuff I've not even heard of. And
that's kind of my problem. It's like I don't like
pretentiousness on any level. But if you're gonna, like, you know,

(23:48):
if in this and I'm sure he's a wonderful guy,
but you know, if Scorsese was a little pretentious to me,
I guess I could take it because he's Scorsese. But
you know, it's like if some of these other people
do it, you know, I kind of, you know, have
a little question mark over my head and I kind
of look at that a little weird. So yeah, for me,
I just try to not be pretentious and not not

(24:08):
you know, act like an idiot, you know, treat people
with respect.

Speaker 5 (24:11):
You know, I've been there, I've been the PA.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
I know kind of how much you know it sucks
and how a lot of times people take advantage of you.
So you know, with this film, I tried to tell
my PA's you know, I don't want you to just
grab coffee, like I want you to tell me what
you want to do and will put you near that
department or if you have questions, you know, between takes,

(24:34):
feel free, like you can talk to me like I
don't want to ever appear or seem unapproachable.

Speaker 5 (24:39):
So that that's kind of my mindset.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah, the you know, I we can understands Scorsese's pretentious.

Speaker 5 (24:47):
You know.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
I had one time I was on a film set
and one of the guys said was arguing with another guy,
and he says, do you.

Speaker 5 (24:55):
Know who I am?

Speaker 3 (24:56):
I won the South Blah blah blah Film Festival. No
one's ever heard of this fucking film festival. And and
the fact that he won it with some movie called
it was called like dirt Bag or sleeves Bag or something,
and and he screened at one time, and I was like,
this movie won a film festival. I said, what was
the two entries? And uh, but like when he said that,

(25:16):
everyone just kind of laughed, and it's just like, you know,
you there's there's two options. Either you're just ignore that
guy or people start to fuck with them, you know
what I mean, Like.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
Well, well, my dad always had a saying when I
was a kid, when I you know, act it out
or whatever, you don't have to be like you know,
if if I could roll the tape back on that
and show you, you'd really see how much of an
idiot you were. And I you know, I apply that
to anyone else I meet, because I think a lot
of times in the heat of the moment, people say
stupid stuff. But you know, if we were to roll

(25:46):
the tape back, so to speak, on everyone, I think
a lot of people would admit, wow, I'm coming across
like a douchebag.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah, I I That's why it is so important about
building that team, to just make sure you know all
those goes or toxic people or people who are going
to try to, you know, take over the project. You know,
I had one time some people message me and I
wasn't even part of the project, and they were working
with a friend of mine and they said, Dave, can
you go talk to him because he's listening to this

(26:14):
one guy who started off as nothing. He was just
like a consultant, and now all of a sudden he's
a producer and he's going and telling us how he's
trying to micromanage everybody. And they said, you know this
was this started off as a fun little project and
now this guy's like ruining every everything. Can you can
you talk to him? To my friend who was in charge,
and I said, I don't think I can go down

(26:35):
that path because he like, because you know what I mean,
because he likes that guy so much. It's like you
got to pick and choose your battles of what.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
The well absolutely and going back to what you said
about the team, I mean, that's the most important aspect,
you know, both in life and in filmmaking, is just
surround yourself with good people.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yes, very true. Can all those negative people, those hateful, passive,
aggressive people? And you know, I just read an article
on Twitter the other day about how how like this
snarky attitude that some people have, Like, oh yeah, that's
real fucking cool. You know that attitude you have to
get you know that that's even toxic to yourself, you
know what I mean. And and so what happens is

(27:11):
if you have those people on set, we're like, oh great,
we're doing another indie film. Get those people out. I
don't care what they've done in the past, how talented
they are. Just ask them very politely to leave and
just try to, you know, say hey, listen, we thanks,
but no thanks.

Speaker 4 (27:25):
Well, you know, isn't that the worst kind of person,
you know, someone who complains about the environment in which
they're very part of. You know, it's like, if you're
so wonderful, why are you here?

Speaker 5 (27:37):
You know.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
It's like I always find that, you know, kind of gross.
And you know, anytime I see that, I just kind
of have to roll my eyes a little bit. I mean,
there's definitely a culture, you know, with certain people who think,
you know, they're better than this, or they don't have
to do this, or you know. But you know, at
the end of the day, it's like, if you feel
that way, why did you show up in the first place.

Speaker 5 (27:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, it's really odd, and I think it is an
ego thing, you know, they just want to make themselves
feel heard and seen. Like you know what I was
gonna I could have been in my apartment today, but
instead I'm gonna be out here on this film set
telling you how great. Yeah I can't.

Speaker 4 (28:12):
It's like, you know, I could be in my underpants
watching Netflix, but I decided to grace you with my presence,
so it's like, oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Yeah. You know, it's one of the reasons why I
refuse to watch cinema sins and trailer whatever that's called
the truth of the trailer or oh honest trailers. That's it.
And you know those two things because it's just like
the snarky, nitpicking type of deal and and some and
you know you could tell that both the people who

(28:43):
run them, I guarantee you want to be filmmakers, and
they just are too frustrated or can't do it, so
they just have to make this thing where they insult
other people's work.

Speaker 5 (28:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:52):
I mean, I don't know personally for them, but I
mean I know there are people that way, definitely, And
you know, I think it's unfor fortunate because again not
to you.

Speaker 5 (29:03):
Know, PROD the fire or whatever.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
But you know, nowadays it's easier than ever to be
a filmmaker. So it's like, if you're still ragging on people,
it's like, damn, what's your excuse?

Speaker 3 (29:13):
And you know what's funny, dude, Evan. I have friends
who I've known who are like that. You know, I'll enter,
you know, I'll post what I'm doing on social media, like, hey,
I'm entering this contest. This guy sent me an email
and it was just this attitude like, oh man, I
wish you know, I don't have the time anymore, blah
blah blah and this, and I'm like, dude, you know,
write a page a day or something I don't know,

(29:35):
or write something I mean, you know what, why are
you coming to me? You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (29:38):
Like and was sitting you up for advice or he
was just saying like I'm tired of seeing you talk
about stuff.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
It was more like a backhanded, backhanded compliment Samwich. It
was like, hey, good to see you doing stuff well.
But then then here comes the passive aggressiveness and then
he finishes up with like another compliment.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
So it's kind of like, you know, I don't know
how to take this sandwich.

Speaker 4 (30:10):
But yeah, no, I've gotten a couple of those over
the years. And I mean, I think it's just like
when you're doing something good.

Speaker 5 (30:16):
Or well, or you know, maybe not even good.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Or well, just in general just being active and not
you know, sitting on your couch. You know, some people
take offense to that, or some people wish they were
doing that, and you know, I mean, again, everyone has
their own situation. I'm not going to pretend I know why.
You know, some people can't make a film every year
or whatever. But you know, to those of us who
are attempting to do that, I really don't think you
know the way to do it is, you know, backhanded compliments.

(30:42):
I mean, if you're interested in truly doing that for yourself,
ask how did you do it? Ask how can I
help you? Ask can you help me? You know, I
think there's a more productive way to have that conversation.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
And you know what, I want to have that conversation
right now, Evan. I want to ask how you did it?
Because you know, the son of clowns, you know you
you so let me just guess with with what you
did and maybe you can correct me. Uh, you know,
maybe I'm wrong but you sat down and I think
you made an asset list of what you had access to,
and you sort of built the script around that, and

(31:16):
you sort of and you already had your team in place,
and you sort of, you know, you showed your team, hey,
I made this, I wrote this script, son of clowns.
What do you think they need to give you some feedback?
And you know, maybe went through a few drafts, and
then you were saying, you know what, I think it's
ready to make this thing. And you you know, you
got those you know, those that asset list you you know,

(31:36):
you know you you knew you had access to that stuff,
and you were able to sort of put together, you know,
a shooting schedule, and you were you know, you put
everyone's schedules together, you know, of all the actors, and
you know, you got yourself a cinematographer or who was
already a part of your team, or you did it yourself,
and you were able to, you know, within one degree

(31:58):
or another, pretty much shoot the script that you wrote
because you were sort of from the inside out. Am
I right or wrong?

Speaker 4 (32:04):
That's pretty pretty accurate to how the dominoes fell. Yeah,
I mean pretty much that's what I did you know
I started this project completely alone. A couple of months
after I got out of film school. I was like, Okay,
I want to write something.

Speaker 5 (32:19):
You know.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
I was kind of schlepping it out on those reality
shows coming home at night, kind of wishing I could
do something a little more artistic.

Speaker 5 (32:26):
So I started writing.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
And you know, took about you know, yearish And at
that point I was finishing some promotion film festival circuit
touring for my last short, Displacement Welcome, which was my
thesis film from film school at East Carolina, And during
one of those kind of interview situations, I met this
guy named Bradley Bethel and he was a writer, but

(32:48):
he also expressed an interest in wanting to make movies
and produce, and he was in the middle of making
a documentary and he you know, had a lot of
success with that, and he was saying he was interested
in kind of shifting into producing narrative as well. So
once I met him, it was kind of a combination
of my network and his network. So I met my
cinematographer through him, He met his assistant producer through me,

(33:11):
so you know, we kind of shifted and traded around people.
We both knew until we had this amalgamation of a
whole bunch of people. And then kind of going back
to what you said about, you know, making a list
of assets and things that had access to absolutely because
you know, when you're making a micro budget film, you know,
you really don't have the luxury of just like pointing
to a place on the street and saying we're gonna
buy that place out for a day and stick our

(33:33):
cameras in there, because that's not how it works when
you're doing this. You know, we found these locations weeks
and months in advance, and you know said, hey, what
is the time when you know you're either doing little
to no business or your clothes. So that way we
don't have to you know, shut you down and you
know take your guys's you know cash full out for
a couple hours or whatever, you know, and make it
as easy for you guys as possible. And you'd be

(33:56):
surprised if you kind of phrase it that way what
a lot of people will be willing to do.

Speaker 5 (34:02):
You know, we kind of explain to them we will
promote this film heavily. Your you know, stuff will be.

Speaker 4 (34:06):
Seen, but you know, I think more than that, like
that's kind of promises that you know, people have heard before.
I think if you're just transparent and honest and you
just say, look, we don't want to.

Speaker 5 (34:16):
Cost you money.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Because like, if you're a bar owner, right so we
filmed in several bars.

Speaker 5 (34:21):
If you're a bar owner and.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
I and Evan kid just randomly shoots you an email
you don't know me from Adam. You know, you open
your email and you just see, hey, we have this
in you feel wonderful, wonderful, wonderful list film your peace please,
blah blah blah. You're gonna be like, Okay, so, uh
is this going to cost me money?

Speaker 5 (34:36):
Am I gonna be out?

Speaker 4 (34:37):
And you just have to make it speak their language. Essentially,
they don't care that you're making this personal film and
blah blah blah. All they care about is Okay, I
want to help you out. Uh, but you know, let's
not cost me a lot of money. So that that's
kind of the situation we framed with them.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
So the reason I was able to to sort of
gauge out Evan is because you know, I've done this myself,
and lately I've been sort of that's been my you know,
for podcast listeners. They know that for every time I
introduce a show. Now, I've been talking about this, you know,
you know, making you know, how do you make a film?
You know, how do you make a film with what
you have access to? Right now? And you know, some

(35:14):
people call it the Rodrigaz list. You know, I actually
had Robert Riguez as a producer on here, and we
and even and I were talking about that because he's like, yeah, Dave,
you pretty much got it. That's exactly what he what
he did, and so you know, you know, if you
have access, you know, let's just say, for instance, I
had friends of mine. They had access to an old
abandoned meat packing plant and they had the key and

(35:34):
they were able to film there. And you know, that's
if that became a location. You know, Okay, we're going
to set the entire film in this abandoned meat packing plant.
Well what happens in there? Well, obviously it's a horror
film because you're not going to set a comedy in there.
So so it's now you know, it's a slasher film, okay,
And they're stuck in there all right, and you know,
one thing leads to another and they sort of, you know,
go from there, and you know that that's sort of

(35:58):
how they built the script, you know, and I think
that's how And I just also noticed this too, Evan.
I think this is sort of becoming the calling cards
slash hallmark of our time, where this is this is
a sort of definition of talent. Can a person or
filmmaker make a film in one location.

Speaker 5 (36:17):
And keep it interesting? You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (36:18):
Can a person you know make a movie with you know,
the Rodriguez list to keep it interesting? And I sort
of think this is a you know, sort of the
benchmark now where we're serious filmmakers and people who just
sit around and say, hey, listen, I have an idea
for a film. You know, I don't know what to do,
and I'm just gonna wait until somebody gives me ten

(36:38):
million dollars exactly.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
You mentioned Rodriguez, I mean him and link Later and
filmmakers like that. I mean, that's who I kind of idolize,
and you know, watched growing up in high school and
going through film school, and you know, those are kind
of the mindsets I like to kind of, you know,
put myself in if possible, because you know, I mean,
working with a million producers and investors in Hollywood's money

(37:04):
and you know, or some you know, rich guy's money
or whatever. I mean, that would be fantastic.

Speaker 5 (37:08):
I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 4 (37:10):
But you know, at the same time, I think resource
based filmmaking will get you a story that you're not
going to get if you make you know, a film
that way, if you kind of do it quote unquote
by the book. I think in resource based filmmaking, like
you said, you know, there's people who will set films
in there, you know, meatpacking, abandoned warehouse or you know,
like a lot of the mumble course stuff from ten

(37:30):
years ago, New York apartment pretty much.

Speaker 5 (37:33):
The whole time.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
And you know, I think a lot of people poke
fund at that, or you know, kind of look at
it in a different way. But I mean, I actually
think there's a lot of strength to being a good
enough filmmaker to set something in one location like you said,
and keep it interesting.

Speaker 5 (37:47):
I think that might make you more.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
Talented than if you you know, have a film that
puts you in an outer space going through a different
planet every ten minutes or whatever. You know, nothing wrong
with that, but I just think that's more interesting to me.

Speaker 5 (38:00):
And you know, a lot of times.

Speaker 4 (38:01):
Filmmaking is like solving a puzzle. So you know, for me,
I like that, I like that challenge, and I mean
for Son of Clowns, we probably made it harder on
ourselves than we needed to, just because we did have
so many locations and a lot of times your characters
would drove around throughout the Triangle in North Carolina, that's
the region.

Speaker 5 (38:19):
Of the film is set.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
And you know, we probably didn't need to make it
is in depth as we did, but we kind of
wanted the film to have a slice of Raleigh, North Carolina,
So we kind of wanted to incorporate a lot of
different locations to give you know, people who knew the
area a little taste of it. And so, you know,
if we were to do it a different way, like
you know, I'm writing a new feature right now, and
it's a little bit more of a psychological film, a

(38:41):
little bit more introspective, a little darker, and I think,
you know, that film is probably going to be a
little bit more similar to that where you know, there
will be not as many locations, so it's going to
rely a lot on you know, character development, not that
Son of Clowns doesn't there's a lot of character development,
but you know, I think just in terms of getting
a new location to kind of refresh your you know,

(39:01):
the ad of the audience, so to speak. You know,
you may not get that, So I think that is
interesting definitely, and kind of being able to tell that
and convey that in a compelling ways, you know, a
mark of strength.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
Yeah. And also, you know, this is something I've talked
about before, which is if you were to live let's
just say, you know, I live in Philadelphia, You're in
in North Carolina crush, Yeah, by.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Way of Louisiana at the moment. I'm working on a project,
but yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
So you know where we live. People sort of aren't
burned out yet from from being asked. You know, if
you go to LA and say, hey, listen, I can
I shoot here, They're gonna say, look, look, buddy, we would.
You're the third person today who's asked us about about that,
and the answer is going to be nice.

Speaker 5 (39:40):
Yeah, oh sure.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
I mean I was in Los Angeles last month for
a film festival for Son of Clowns, and it was
kind of I've been there before briefly during a layover,
but you know, I was there for three days this time,
and kind of got my feet wet, so to speak.
In LA And you know, I was talking to some
folks at the festival and they were just telling me
all the same things. And they were like, the locals.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
And they were just saying, you know, independent film is
super tricky if you live in Los Angeles, like they
were saying, it's almost harder over there, just because you know,
people know, and it's such a part of the culture,
and you know, Hollywood is king over there, so you
have a little bit of resistance. I mean, you could
obviously shoot something in your backyard or your apartment or whatever.

(40:30):
But like if you're, like you said, trying to get
into bars and stuff, you know, you may as well
forget it unless you've got a lot of money.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
Oh yeah, absolutely, It's just it's you know, even a
friend of mine who actually found a little independent spot,
every time he shot there, they would raise the fee up.
You know, they kept raising the fee up a little
bit more, a little bit more, and finally he by
like the fifth or sixth time, he said, my god,
it's caused you know, it's now it's like a little
this little coffee shop. They charge us like I think

(40:59):
two hudred bucks. Now he's like, they're charging us over
one thousand dollars, and he said, you know, it just
doesn't make any fiscal sense anymore. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
I mean if if we were to film Son of
Clowns in that coffee shop for two days, we would
have gone over our whole budget for the film, Like
you know, I mean, like that's.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
The short of it.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
But you know, I definitely think if you want to
be an independent filmmaker, I would advise anyone to find
a city that's big enough to have crew base and.

Speaker 5 (41:25):
You know, film schools around it.

Speaker 4 (41:26):
So you know, maybe not the middle of Idaho, although
you could maybe challenge yourself to do something out there.
I don't know, but if you find one of these
kind of regional, big cities, I think you can really
set yourself up for success. Because I had a lot
of friends who, after ECU and film school moved to
Los Angeles, and like, several of them are doing pretty
good for themselves, but like a couple others are really struggling,

(41:49):
and you know, it's a hard I mean, everyone knows
it's hard out there, but you know, a lot of
them have not made their own work.

Speaker 5 (41:57):
Since film school.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
And I think that's just kind of hard because once
you're in that system, you kind of need to you know,
be a cog. You know, not as an insult, I'm
not saying this, but you kind of have to do
that first before you're allowed permission. And I think anywhere else,
you you know, that's there, but you kind of get
a little more leeway to say, okay, wait, back up.

Speaker 5 (42:16):
I want to make my own story. How do we
do this?

Speaker 3 (42:20):
Yeah, you know, and I've heard that same, you know,
the same type of experience too, is you know some
people do you know kind of well out there. A
friend of mine ended up, you know, crewing on different stuff.
Then he went to Louisiana now where he you know,
he's working on Crewe a project. You know, he's working
on tons of projects and crew and other friends. You know,
I had one friend who went out there. He had
contacts out the ass and you know what happened, Evan,

(42:44):
he felt very lonely and isolated out there, and he said, basically,
you know, everyone's always busy and one's always working, and
he just felt, you know, basically his only people he
could talk to with the people at like a Chinese
restaurant or whatever, and you know, because he would order
from them every day. He'd go down there and they
would know who he was and he'd say, oh, yeah,
it's me, you know, and you know, he just he

(43:05):
hated it and he ended up moving back. And funny
little story, Evan, he still hasn't made a movie himself.
And you know, we always he and I talked before
about you know, I said, what you know because he
asked me, He's like, Dave, seriously, we went out to
dinner and he said, Dave, what is holding me back?
And I said, your fear of failure is holding you
back because if you if you think that you make

(43:26):
this movie and it sucks, it's going to mean you
have no talent and it's going to be indicative of
everything that you've spent your whole life doing. Yeah, and
that's what's stopping you.

Speaker 5 (43:34):
Yeah, I mean, fear is uh.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
You know, there's a book I've read, I think Robert
Riguez mentioned in an interview a whole bunch of years back,
and it's called the Art of Fear, and it's a
book that basically categorizes every doubt, every little inkling of
you know, why we shouldn't do an artistic endeavor into
a category and kind of lets you filter through it
so you can catch those thoughts before they come. It's

(43:59):
a great read, like eight bucks on Amazon. I would
totally recommend it, But you know, I would say it's
not just that book, because I mean I made these
this film before I read that book. But I mean
I think it's just a mindset and you know, I
hate just the little Nike just do it. But I
mean it's so true, like there's no one way that

(44:24):
you're gonna be successful. There's no one way that you're
gonna make this, you know, feature short or whatever. But
you know, if you try, you can at least think try,
because I mean, isn't that the worst thing to go
to bed at the end of the day and kind
of all over in your head. Man, I still haven't
taken the jump. I mean, because at the very least,
if you take the jump and it's a horrible failure,
I mean, who who's really gonna care? Like, I mean,

(44:45):
maybe a few of your friends will be like, yeah,
he tried to make a movie, But like, I guarantee
you a few of your friends have much bigger problems
than you know, trivializing over your movie. So you know,
I mean, at the end of the day, it's really
you that has to deal with it. So you know,
if you can kind of make peace in your own mind,
that's the key.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Yeah. There's also a great book called The War of
Art by Steven Pressfield.

Speaker 5 (45:05):
Oh I've got that one. Yeah, yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
You know what. I read that book and I very
rarely ever just put down a book you know that
that's not fiction and uh and and say, holy crap,
I got to read that again right now. Literally, I
sat down to read it at a Barnes and Nobles.
I read the whole thing and I still I was like,
you know what, I'm gonna go buy this. I have
to buy it. I mean, this is like my my,
my new go to thing, and everything he talks about,

(45:30):
I was like, that's me. This is you know, you know,
you sit down to write and all and in one
ear you're hearing you know, sort of like you know,
your your your your muse, and then the other year
is resistance, you know, whisper, you know, whispering in your ear. Oh,
you have no talent. Don't do this, it's stupid, You're awful.
Just forget about this and go be you know, go

(45:51):
sell you know, uh snow cones down the beach. And
you're like, well, you know what, I guess I should
and you and you know what I mean, And I've
I've been there, you know where you're like, you know what,
I should just go out forget all this stuff and
just go get a job, you know, doing whatever instead.

Speaker 5 (46:07):
Yeah. No, absolutely, I mean we've all dealt with.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
That kind of depression and that kind of wrestling within
your mind, you know, as you're an artistic person. I
mean I can only speak to my own experiences, but
I mean I know that to me is a lot
worse than the fear of failure. I mean, the depression
and the kind of you know, funk you get yourself
into when you're not working. I mean that freaks me
out a lot more than just making a film and

(46:30):
it's like, oh no, some people didn't like it. That
that's a lot more frightening. So I mean, for me,
it's never been really about failure. It's it's been I
just don't like those kind of periods where I'm not
doing something because I feel like, Okay, what's wrong. There
has to be a reason, you know, maybe it's outside
of filmmaking, blah blah blah. But you know, I think
keeping yourself busy and keeping yourself sane is the best

(46:52):
way to do it, because I mean, you can get
caught up in your head too easily. I mean, especially
these days. I mean, you know a lot of times,
like we spend so much time just staring at devices
and you know, like kind of not actually engaging with
the world around us, So you kind of end up
in your head a lot more than you may otherwise.
And uh, you know, I think it's the best way
to filter through that is to make work, you.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Know, yes, yeah, And I think that's where a lot
of frustration for some people comes in, is that they
can't either they don't want to write because they think
that if it's bad, it's indicative of them, even if
they write a script, you know, and it's and it's terrible.
You know. I've had to learn a very hard lesson
and I've had to learn this over and over again,
and that is to stop trying to get perfectionism on

(47:33):
the first draft. I don't I I it's like this
weird thing with me, Evan, Like I will outline like you.
I mean, I will outline pages and pages and pages,
and then I'm like, oh, you know what, maybe let
me let me do something different, and I'm just like,
it's almost like you're you're you're going in that hamster
wheel because you're always taking that first draft and then
you know, and then you you say, hey, no, I'm
gonna start draft one one dash B and then it's

(47:57):
one draft C and then you know what I mean,
and then you're you're still in that first instead of
just getting something done and then trying to go back
and trying to figure out what worked what didn't work,
you know. And I think that's a lot of what
holds people back.

Speaker 4 (48:09):
Oh absolutely, I mean I would say I just wrote
a pilot script and it's a series that I'm gonna
attempt to work on here in Louisiana. And the guy
I'm working on it with, you know, we basically just said, like,
let's get the vomit draft out because we basically want
to shoot this pilot on our own and have a
you know, solid, you know, cut pilot. Everything like that

(48:31):
nice and done to present to some investors to hopefully
get funding for the Best to season.

Speaker 5 (48:35):
And you know, for me, I was so worried about that.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
So I'm like, man, there's a lot of people, there's eyes,
there's people who are going to try to impress.

Speaker 5 (48:41):
It's got to be perfect. It's got to be perfect.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
And I'm just like, I'm only in stage one of
the draft. I haven't even finished into edits yet, and
we haven't even shot the film.

Speaker 5 (48:49):
We haven't even cut the film.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
So there's a lot more filters we're going to go
through before this thing seen by anyone.

Speaker 5 (48:55):
So like, I think that's the thing.

Speaker 4 (48:57):
Everyone's thinking way too far ahead, and like I think
everyone just needs to kind of chill out a little bit.
And I know that sounds counterproductive and I need to
take my own advice sometimes, but you know, I think
if you really get a little bit more relaxed with it,
at least on your first draft. I'm not saying like,
don't work hard and don't outline it, don't do this,

(49:18):
because that's all very critical. I mean, pre production is
the key to being successful. But I think a lot
of times, not trying to be so hard on yourself
with that first draft, because if you're so hard on
yourself making that first draft that you never actually write it,
it doesn't even matter, you know.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you completely, man. And it
is getting that vomit draft out there. It is getting
something on the page, because that's the thing. You get
stuck in your own head and you never sort of
stop thinking in terms of what if or It's what
somebody once told me is called this decision fatigue, you
know what I mean, where you sort of you make
so many decisions and you know that's taking off your energy,

(49:57):
you know what I mean. You're like, well, what if
this happens.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
No, no, no, what if this happens? And this happens,
then you're sort of just caught in your own head
of all these different options.

Speaker 4 (50:15):
Decisiveness is really underrated these days, man. And it's hard
to be decisive, I think, because there are so many options.
I mean, like with film and not you know, and
just in life. I mean, there are so many options
with pretty much everything we do nowadays. Do you want
to shoot it on the sixty? You do want to
shoot it on see you one hundred mark too, don't

(50:35):
want to shoot it on the elex. I mean, like
so many options, But the end of the day, it's
just a damn camera if that's what you're worried about,
or you know, am I going to cast this person
to that person? If it's a micro budget. Well, at
the end of the day, your actors are pretty much
just a vessel that you're telling your story through. You're
not dealing with like Brad Paid or anyone you know,
outrageously famous.

Speaker 5 (50:53):
So just make your stuff.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
I mean, like, at the end of the day, like
all these little decisions, they are important, but I think
we as filmmakers really to kind of trivialize them and
kind of really make them way more blown up than
they have any business being. So, I mean, I think
a lot of times just committing to something, and again.

Speaker 5 (51:10):
I mean I'm guilty of it too.

Speaker 4 (51:11):
It's hard to be decisive sometimes, but I think just saying, Okay,
I'm writing ten pages today, or I'm writing from two
o'clock to three o'clock, not looking at my phone. I'm
not gonna check Twitter, blah blah blah. I'm just gonna,
you know, turn off the Internet and just write. I mean,
like that's really underrated and that's and it's difficult, but
you know, I think doing that and getting in a
habit of kind of reprogramming your brain is really helpful

(51:35):
to getting work done.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Yes, yeah, getting that, you know, just turning off all
those distractions. And I think that is a thing too, man.
You know, is that the cell phone is like this
sort of the double edged sword. You can do so
much with it, but there's also so many things vying
for your attention. And what I what I find is
when I'm gonna write, I take the cell phone away
and I just see in front of my computer. I
can turn off the Internet through a number of different

(51:59):
add ons and you know what I mean, and you
just and I just work inside something like open office,
which is free because it's open sourced, or even just
notepad or fade in or final Drift and just that said,
make a full screen mode and just write for you know,
twenty minutes and get into that habit. Because somebody once
told me, oh, I'm gonna butcher this, but I think

(52:20):
it's you know, actions become habits, and then habits become
what you're known for. Oh yeah, and I maybe I
did butcher that I'm not sure, but but that, but
that's so true, you know, and you're you're gonna they're
gonna say, hey, there's Evan. That's the guy who can
write for you know, two or three hours without looking
at his phone. He's a freaking superstar, because you know,
most people can't go five seconds.

Speaker 5 (52:40):
I don't know if I'm there yet, but I'm working.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's hard. It's definitely
hard to turn off those distractions.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Yeah, it real, it really is. And uh, you know,
you know, Evan, you know, we've been talking for about
you know, forty eight minutes, and I just want to ask,
you know, before uh, you know, would you we start
wrapping up. I just want to ask about Son of Clowns.
You know, what was one of the biggest production issues
that you had. I mean, whether it be a location
or maybe you were going to film outside and now
thunderstorm rolls in. You know what was one of the

(53:11):
biggest production issues you ran in while making Son of Clowns?

Speaker 5 (53:14):
I mean kind of throwing through just time.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
I mean, we shot this whole feature in ten days,
which was really a brutal schedule. You know, we a
lot of times we would just pull ourselves up in
a location for three days, you know, do air mattresses,
that whole thing, and just get it done. We didn't
shoot ten days straight, but we shot ten days over
the course of about two weeks, two and a half weeks,

(53:37):
so I mean it was you know, three or four
days straight, then a day or two off, and then
right back at it kind of so on and so forth.
But I mean, aside from time, I mean, I think
it was just trying to get conditions perfect because a
lot of this was I mean, it's a narrative film,
but we shot in the real world. There was no
sound stages, there was no you know, roping off an.

Speaker 5 (53:55):
Entire area to make it quiet.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
I mean a lot of times we'd have like giant
trucks trying to through them, filming in a parking lot
for a scene, and like this eighteen wheeler was trying
to make a delivery and then we had to stop
and wait for him. And then by the time he
finished unloading his truck, like, the sun was way different.
The lighting looked, you know, completely off, and you know,
it's just trying to fix those things. And it's really

(54:17):
easy in the moment be like, yeah, we'll fix it
in post. But it's just like, don't shoot yourself in
the foot. But I mean, I actually you mentioned the thunderstorm.
A quick little story from set. Uh, there's a scene
towards the end of the movie. I won't spoil it,
but a Jabbari who's Hudson's brother. Hudson's our main character
in the film. Basically they're they're mending kind of a

(54:39):
soured relationship between the two of them. Something's gone wrong
in a very big way. And basically they're doing this
scene where you know, they're trying to make amends or
Hudson's trying to make amends and you know Jabbari's having
none of it. And it's really this dramatic, tense moment,
Like I mean, they were both doing so good you
could cut the tension with you know, a pair of scissors,
but at a no know where you just hear this

(55:01):
giant thundercloud and they stating character and just kept going
and that slowly started raining a little bit, and then
the light was all weird and wonky, but you know,
we kept rowling and that's the take we used. And
so a lot of times when people watch the film,
there's this like thunder in the background while they're having
this argument, and a lot of people are like, did
you add that.

Speaker 5 (55:18):
I'm like, no, no, no, that's just from like the real world.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
So I mean it's like it fit really well, I thought,
and like it didn't come off as like corny or
weird because I mean, it didn't sound like an effect.

Speaker 5 (55:30):
I mean it was just off in the distance and
you could see it, so it was really cool.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
And you know, it's just one of the situations where
you know, we wouldn't have got that from a sound stage.
We wouldn't have got that from you know, a whole
bunch of like polished you know, clean sets or anything.

Speaker 5 (55:44):
You know, it's just shooting in the real world. That's
what happens.

Speaker 4 (55:46):
So I mean, I think you do get happy accidents
like that, but then at the same time you get
the guy unloading the eighteen wheeler, so that's a double
edged sword. So I think it's just a matter of
like time and getting those locations, you know, to work
for you instead of working for your location.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
So yeah, you know, it's amazing when you're out there
actually filming all the things that can happen and you know,
sort of the some things could come together very well,
and then some things like the used to the truck,
the guy and learning the truck and can sort of
put a damper on things. And you know, uh, you know,
just some of the things that I found in hearing

(56:22):
stories about filmmaking and you know, by own personal experiences.
You know, sometimes you just you just never know. I mean,
were for instance, I was going to film in uh
for three days out in this in this park, and
I looked at the weather forecast. They said it was
going to be beautiful all three days. Evan, it stormed
like crazy, and we were gonna use zombies and we
couldn't put them out there because the zombie makeup was

(56:43):
gonna run. So we ended up having to sort of
do everything inside and they looked completely different than what
we wanted. It was just, you know, we we improvised
as best we could. But it's always like dann it,
if only we could have done more outside.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
It's you know, yeah, I mean, filmmaking is just a
big game of improvation and trying to stay two steps
ahead of the real world.

Speaker 5 (57:02):
And I mean like as.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
Filmmakers, we have an unhealthy habit of thinking the world's
gonna stop for us while we're on set. But you
know the world doesn't care. That guy, you know, unloading
his truck. He's just you know, doing his job, like
he doesn't.

Speaker 5 (57:15):
Care that we're making a film.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
I mean, you know, So it's like that's what you
deal with. You know, it's gonna rain or it's gonna
do this or that, and it's just a matter of
being flexible. I mean, I think like being kind of
zen about everything and really trying to you know, I guess,
be a little bit hippie with it and just try
not to let every little thing bother you and.

Speaker 5 (57:34):
Just kind of be a piece.

Speaker 4 (57:35):
I mean that's the key, because I mean, if you're
you have to be type A, I think to make
productions work. But I think if you can kind of
take a little bit of a type B mindset when
something goes wrong, you're gonna save yourself a couple of
great hairs.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
Yeah, absolutely. I think also meditation helps with that. Yeah,
just learning to learning to roll with this and be like, Okay,
you know what, we'll figure this out. I'm gonna become
very David Lynching about this. I'm gonna you know try.

Speaker 5 (58:00):
Yeah, I mean that's that's how I try to be.

Speaker 4 (58:02):
I mean, like Werner Herzog, he talks a lot about,
you know, just shooting gorilla and like just the stuff
that could go wrong and how you kind of incorporate
that into your film and how that's actually part of
your esthetic. And like, I mean, I absolutely buy that,
because I mean a lot of our film was just gorilla.
I mean it was just out there and you know,
it was wild, and so you know, you deal with

(58:23):
the situations that come by just sticking a camera in
the real world, and I think it gives your film
a little bit of authenticity. I think that's actually really exciting,
but I think at the same time it's also challenging.
But once you capture it's almost like, hey, I got
away with something.

Speaker 5 (58:38):
Hey we did it.

Speaker 4 (58:39):
We you know, managed to film here, even though that
guy unloaded his truck or whatever, and so you kind
of walk away with a little bit of a you know,
excited edge you may not have got if you just
kind of rolled camera in a perfect little situation and everything,
you know, just checked off the list.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
Yeah, very very true, very true, Evan. You know, Evan,
just in closing, I want to ask where we will
check out Son of Clowns.

Speaker 4 (59:04):
Yeah, so we are playing two more festivals at the moment.
Like I said, we were just at Action on Film
in Los Angeles, and we were at Yollywood Film Festival
in Atlanta this past weekend. And we've got Queen City
Film Festival in Maryland on the sixth, So it may
not be.

Speaker 5 (59:20):
This may not be out by then, but then we
have a.

Speaker 4 (59:22):
Cucka Laws Film Festival back home in North Carolina, and
I am super excited for that film festival. That's one
I've loved personally for a while, and so it's going
to be a great homecoming for the film. And actually
the day after Cuckle Orus ends, this film, November fifteenth,
is going to be streaming for Amazon Prime and Amazon
Video on Demand. So November fifteenth is the day I

(59:42):
think most people should remember because you'll be able to
check out Son of Clowns in full and streaming on Amazon.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
And I will also link to all that in the
show notes everybody, and just in case in case they
didn't get that. But again it's at Davilis dot com,
Evan where we'll find you out online.

Speaker 4 (59:58):
Yeah, I do Twitter, probably the so if you do Twitter,
Twitter dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
My thing is at mister Evan Kid. My work's also
online Rockset Productions dot com. That's where I keep everything.
And then obviously if you want to know more about
a son of Clowns in particular set Off Clowns dot
COM's got everything you need to know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
And again everyone I'll looked at in the show notes.
And you know, as you know, Evan knows, I'm also
most active on Twitter, and that's sort of where I
you know, I meet a lot of people. Twitter has
been an excellent, excellent networking tool for me. Yeah, I've
been able to meet so many awesome people through there.

Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Definitely, Yeah, I love Twitter. Twitter has put me in
touch actually with a lot of people who I've.

Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
Ended up meeting in the real world.

Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
Like I stayed with my friend Blaize who has a
podcast called Us First Film, and we just met through Twitter,
and he was gracious enough to put me up while
I was in Los Angeles and you really kind of
show me around and do stuff like that. So you know,
Twitter is definitely a wonderful network to meet people and
kind of foster those filmmaking connections.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's like you know, I always say,
you know, social media is a tool and it depends
how you want to wheeld that tool. And Twitter is
one that I have. I have met so many people
in there, Evan. You know, I I would say you
and I met on there, but you actually you and
I meant through.

Speaker 5 (01:01:21):
Email, but I saw you on Twitter. That's probably think.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
So there you go. All right, the Twitter. Twitter is
the you know, it's an actual source of all that. Evan.
I want to say, thank you so much for coming on.
This has been a blast of a conversation, dude, and
you know, I wish you the best with Son of Clowns.
And you know, if you ever want to come back
talk about you know, whatever else you're up to, about
the TV pole you talked about or whatever else, please,
you know, there was always open.

Speaker 5 (01:01:45):
Yeah, thanks Dave. I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
Oh my pleasure, Evan kid. I want to say thanks
again and I wish the best of luck.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
Man.

Speaker 5 (01:01:51):
Thanks man, appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
Anytime, Take care, buddy.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
Thanks.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job. On this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
If you want to get links to anything we spoke
about it in this episode, head over to the show
notes at Indie film huscle dot com Forward slash eight thirteen.
If you have it already, please head over to filmmaking
podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review for
the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
Thank you again so much for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Guys, As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive,
Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast at
Indie film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I
E F I L M h U S T l
E dot com.