IFH 829: The Secret to Marketing Your Movie Like a Pro with Brad Wilke

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
twenty nine, Cinema Should make You forget.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
You're sitting in a theater, Roman Polanski.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we showed you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn
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Speaker 2 (01:46):
That's film bizbook dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest
host Dave Bullis So.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
For today on the podcast, we have Brad Wilkie. Brad
is a screenwriter of Campbell Spiders and Paracom I'm the
Brad holds an MBA from the University of Washington's Foster
School of Business, as well as a Master of Communication
Digital Media from the University of Washington's Department of Communication.

Speaker 5 (02:10):
Brand is also the co.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
Founder of swe House Creative, a company that designs and
executes digital and social media strategies for films and filmmakers.
We talked about how to build an ONIONCE for your project,
how to network, and working with the legendary Roger Corman.

Speaker 5 (02:23):
Brad, how are you, sir? Oh? Not bad, Daved, thanks
a lot, great to be here.

Speaker 4 (02:28):
Oh, I you know, I thank you very much for
coming on, Brad. You know, Brad's a question I always
ask everyone to get started. Is you know, how did
you get started in the film business.

Speaker 5 (02:39):
Yeah, well, you know it was it was a pretty
winding path that I took. You know, I went to
West Point of all places, so it was in the
army for five years after I graduated in nineteen ninety eight.
So that's how I ended up out here in the
Pacific Northwest at Fort Lewis. And during my time at
Fort Lewis, I you know, would spend a lot of

(03:01):
nights and weekends up in Seattle just you know, this
was before social media and before a lot of you know,
so much like everything was on the web, so you know,
just going to a lot of like film screenings and help,
you know, like just connecting. Like I was interested in film,
but didn't really know that it was like a career
path necessarily, even though I made a lot of short

(03:21):
like VHS movies as a kid growing up with neighborhood friends.
So you know, ended up making a short film here
in Seattle. I shot it on sixteen millimeter and edited
it on a steambeck. So would you know, spend my
day down to Fort Lewis and the army and then
come up here at night and you know, edit old

(03:42):
school style and then drive back down to Fort Lewis.
So that kind of got you know, my feet went
in the business. And you know, I really enjoyed that.
And the short film you know, did okay on the
festival circuit, and you know, led to another one and
then I made, you know, and then it just kind
of blossomed from there, Like I ended up doing some

(04:02):
pre screening for the Seattle International Film Festival, and then, uh,
you know, came on board as a programmer, which is
not a full time job by any by any stretch.
Just FYI, anybody out there, Yes, you you can make
a living as a programmer, but it's you know, those
kind of jobs are few and far between, so you know,

(04:23):
it's definitely a labor of love, and uh, you know,
also had been you know, continuing to write screenplays and
and ended up working through just literally a cold email
that I sent to Jim Onnorski early early one morning,
when I was like on the verge of giving up
screenwriting for good. I was just, you know, it was

(04:45):
one of those like moments, you know, you're staring into
the abyss and you know, and it turned out, you know,
it was it was great and that's turned into a
really fruitful writing relationship with Jim, and you know, and
then smart House started because I got laid off, like
I I during all as all of that was happening,
I'd started a nonprofit when I got out of the Army,

(05:06):
which led me to business school, which is something I
never thought that I would be doing. And from there
I got a kind of a concurrent degree Masters of
Communication and Digital Media, which which really laid the groundwork
for a lot of the work we do at smart House.
And was working for a pretty large global health nonprofit
here in Seattle as their digital engagement strategist and got

(05:30):
laid off at a round of budget cuts and that
hit only the external relations, so they lost you know,
forty percent of their web team and I was part
of that, and that's really where I, you know, was
just sort of like wondering why I have two kids?
What am I going to do now? And I, you know,
I was like, well, I love movies. I you know,
have a fair amount of knowledge about business and digital

(05:52):
strategy and you know that world, and I progre you know,
like all these things, and so I just was like, well,
how can I combine those? And that's kind of really
how how smart House got off the ground, along with
you know, my business partner Brian Davis, like she you know,
wasn't just like I had started my own smaller company
and then we decided to join forces because you know,
she is a publicist and I'm not. So it was

(06:15):
kind of like a match made in film marketing heavens.
So that that's kind of like, you know, in a
nutshell kind of how things progressed.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
You know, it's amazing you went to West Point. I
actually used to help out a social media group that
was connected to West Point. Okadd Yeah, they were called
like the Delco Friends of West Point. They found me
some randomly on the Internet one day and they were like,
can we meet with you to discuss a social media strategy?
And they were just you know, I mean we went

(06:45):
over everything, you know, and they would show me videos
of West Point and all this other stuff, and it
was actually, it was actual pretty fascinating. A lot of
the stuff went over. So it's actually, again like I
always say, through this interview, through all these podcasts, I
always say, it's such a small world.

Speaker 5 (06:58):
Oh yeah, it really is. And especially you know, it's
what's really interesting is, you know, just kind of on
the topic of West Point, there are very few West
Point graduates, I guess is I was thinking of like
I was like cadets, like what's forgot what the call
momentarily old grads as we're called, who are involved in
the film industry. So and I feel like I'm very

(07:20):
fortunate to know as far as I know, like almost
all of them who are doing stuff, and they're doing
some great stuff. You know, Sean Mallin just wrote and
directed Amra and Sam which came out through Draft House,
And you know, there's a couple other guys, one of
them was working on The Army Wives as a staff writer,
and you know, people are doing some really cool stuff.
Another friend of mine that was actually my classmate, Nick

(07:40):
Paul Oshano, he just directed after raising a pretty large
sum of money on Indiegogo, kind of like a zombie
thriller set I believe at a military base firing range
with his company. It's called Ranger Up. So I'm actually
looking forward to to seeing that. But you know, it's
it can kind of count like alumni and former graduate

(08:04):
who are who are in the uh, you know, entertainment industry.
So it's a it's even smaller world as you get
you know, lower and lower into the weeds there.

Speaker 4 (08:13):
You know, Ranger Up sounds pretty good because you know,
one problem I've always had a zombie movies, Brad, is
you know the zombie apocalypse. You know, it happens, there's
an outbreak. There's a group of survivors you know that
are protagonists. We follow them. Well, the first time they
pick up a gun, they're crack shots. They're hitting head
shots like you know, from like you know, a thousand

(08:36):
yards away. Oh you want that zombie bam. I'm like,
and I'm thinking to myself, I mean that is an
amazing shot for a top marksman. And this person is
just randomly you know, picking up you know, a shotgun
and hitting you know, so uh, I imagine in Ranger Up,
if they're actually good at shooting zombies in the head,
there's a good reason for it, now.

Speaker 5 (08:55):
Yeah, right, Like that's a that's a great point, you know,
and military people are some of the most critical when
it comes to, you know, films that involve the military,
you know, especially with you know, one of the scripts
that I wrote for Roger Corman with Jim Norsky Camel Spiders.
You know, the protagonist is a captain in the army

(09:16):
who's back from Afghanistan, and you know, everybody's like, you know,
pointing out like problems with his uniform and all these things,
and you know, and blaming the screenwriter, you know, like
I should never like never go on IMDb message boards,
you know, like it actually like it kind of got
gave me like a very various If my skin wasn't

(09:38):
thick enough being in the film industry to begin with,
it got a lot thicker real quick after that movie
came out, and you know, everything, like, ah, a screenwriter
probably has no idea what the you know, it's like.
And here I am, like an Army veteran, you know,
who went to West Point, and you know, I don't
have any control over that, like every you know, a
lot of times like the screenwriter gets to blame.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
We'll be right back after word from our sponsor and
now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (10:07):
When things aren't right, and never gets the credit when
when things are right. So, you know, screenwriting, anybody who's listening,
is sometimes a very thankless profession.

Speaker 4 (10:17):
Very true, Brad, very true. I mean I've had friends
who have worked on like martial arts movies as you know,
look stunt coordinators for instance, or fight choreographers, and you know,
when the movie comes out, you know, some of their
friends are like, wait a minute, you know what what
is going on here?

Speaker 5 (10:32):
Why?

Speaker 4 (10:32):
You know, why are they throwing? Why is this you know,
grappler wrestler guy throwing punches And he's like, look, you
know that's what the director wanted. You know, it's out
of my hands.

Speaker 5 (10:43):
Yeah, exactly. It's so true. It's so true.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
So, you know, brand I wanted to talk to you.
You mentioned working with Roger Corman, you know on a project.
You know, how did you end up, you know, getting
to work with Roger.

Speaker 5 (10:54):
Well, so I was not like I was working with
Jim Wnorsky for a project that was executive produced by
Roger Corman. So I got script notes and stuff. But
I live in Seattle, So this is an interesting kind
of scenario for screenwriters who don't live in you know,
Los Angeles or even New York City. So what happened
was I was watching you know, I've been a big
fan of B movies for my whole life, Like I

(11:17):
grew up watching some of Jim win Norsky's very films
like Dusk Stalker two and Chopping Mall and Not of
This Earth, you know, like fun you know, kind of
classic B movies. Right, And one night in like twenty
ten or maybe it was, No, it was two thousand
and nine, like the fall, like October of two thousand
and nine. So before I went to business school, and

(11:38):
I was kind of like at a low point, like
I was, you know, living with my current you know,
my wife now, but we were you know, not engaged.
Like it was kind of like what am I doing
with mine? Like I don't know what's going on? And
it was kind of in this like binge watching period
of horror films from Netflix and just whatever. Right, So
I got Chopping Mall one night, and I had seen

(11:59):
it before, so I was gonna watch it with the
I've seen it multiple times, but it's one of Jim's
you know, used to be called Killbots, and it's kind
of like a RoboCop in a mall.

Speaker 4 (12:09):
Oh, I've seen that movie. I have a not no,
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I usually would have
like a bad movie marathon and shopping mall is one
of the films I always put in there, and some
people get it, and some other people are like, what
the hell is going on here there? They're security guard
robots or yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great.

Speaker 5 (12:28):
And the backstory you know, behind that is you know,
I won't go into all of it, but you know,
Jim kind of made it, you know, in a very
short period of time in evenings, like they were shooting
in the you know, the mall that they shot fast times,
the Regemont High in when it was closed at night
and then they had to be out of there by
the morning. And you know, it was produced by Julie
Korman and Rogers didn't know that Jim was making it.

(12:50):
Like it was just like really really funny story kind
of like the you know, like the golden age of
like the eighties kind of like anything goes filmmaking. But anyway,
so anyway, so I will listen to it with Jim's commentary,
and I was, I was like, man, you know, this
guy seems like a really smart, like seems like a
nice guy. Like I like wonder what he's doing now,

(13:10):
Like I, you know, I didn't know like he had
been like, you know, continuously working since like you know,
nineteen eighty three or something like that, and you know,
churning out a lot of you know, some some good
some you know, you know, the jury's out. I don't
want to say bad, but you know, like, uh, you know,
multiple films a year. So I looked him up on

(13:31):
IMDb Pro and I kind of had this idea in
my back of my mind. I was just like, I'm
just gonna write him an email. And I don't know
what I'm going to say, but I'm gonna write hi
an email. So anyway, so I did that, and sure enough,
on IMDb Pro, his contact information is right there, you know,
on the on his like profile. And I was like, Okay,
I guess that's some sort of sign. I don't know
exactly what, and so, you know, and I and also

(13:54):
like I was not you know, drinking or high at
the time. This was all like, this was all done.
It was just really late and uh and uh, you know,
so I so I tapped out an email and then I,
you know, that morning, I kind of reread it and
just you know, kind of said like, I, you know,
been a fan of your films for a while, you know,
and you know my actually screenwriter, and you know, I've
had some scripts that have placed in contests, but you know,

(14:17):
I just nothing's ever really clicked with you know, I
can't remember exactly what I wrote, but you know, I said,
you know, if you need a second set of eyes
on something, or you know a project that needs, you know,
to go from idea to you know, treatment or whatever,
you know, let me know. I'm you know, I'm I'm
your man. And uh, you know, I just had no
expect I'd never done it before either, so I had

(14:38):
no expectation of what the outcome would be. I was
just like, well, why not write nothing to lose? Like
I was, like I said, on the verge of like
just like throwing in the toll, because you know, if
you're writing without like an agent or a manager, it
can often feel like you're just kind of writing in
a vacuum and you know, your family might read something
or you know, but nobody really cares honestly. And U

(15:00):
you know, the next day, I think it was, got
an email back from him, you know, saying like hey,
thanks for the email, like, you know, seemed like a
smart guy, well written email. I'll give you a call
like well, you know, Like so, so we ended up talking,
you know, either that later that day or the next day,
like very you know, in very short order, and had
a really good conversation. Like Jim's like, you know, no

(15:21):
matter what you would say about his films, like I've
never and I didn't even know the half of it,
but like, you know, he's he's just like a really
really smart like film person, Like he just knows how
movies work and he loves movies. And so we you know,
kind of talked like I for a period after I
got out of the Army, I worked at Scarecrow Video
here in Seattle, which is like sort of like you know,
like sort of a you know, pantheon of you know,

(15:43):
movie geeks. So I could kind of hold my own
with him, and He's like, all right, you know, so
here's what I'm gonna do. I don't know. You know,
I like you. It seems like, you know, he's smart
enough or whatever. And you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna
send you the script. It needs a lot of work
to get a green light from Roger. You know how
he talks like, he's more like he's a lot of
work to get a green you know, he kind of
tie like really really gruff, and and he's like, so

(16:08):
I'm gonna send it to you. Give it a read,
and then I want you to rewrite the first ten pages.
And here's the stuff. I want you to concentrate, you know,
focus on this. You know this needs to be punched up.
This needs to you know. He's like, you know, take
your time because I only give you one chance. And
he's like, you know, send it back to me. And
if I like it, you know you can rewrite the
whole you know, you can basically you know, get it
into fighting shape and then you know, I'll give you

(16:30):
a you know credit, and you know, blah blah all
this stuff, right, and so okay, So so sends me
a script and it's Camel Spiders, and you know, I
read it and thought about it and spent like like
basically like a week like trying to like fix or
like improve the first ten pages. And then I did,
and I sent it back to him, and then you know,

(16:51):
pretty pretty shortly after that, he uh, you know, calls back,
and I didn't have his number in my phone at
this you know, so I just saw it like it
was the same not I was like, oh, we know,
home boy, this is it. I was like, here's the call, right,
you know, this could like you know, make or break
my you know, you know, fledgling career or whatever there
is of it right now, you know. And I was
so used to like rejection and everything that it was

(17:12):
such a shock when when he's like he's like Brad Wilkie,
Jim Wnorski love it, loved it, you know, like you
just like you like it was really just like he's
very blunt, like if he doesn't like something, I've heard
a lot of times from him and be like nope, nope,
hate it, hate it, fix it, change it, and you know,
you just learn, you know, it's just like you don't
take it personally. You just really it's like a kind

(17:32):
of a professional you know, it's just like okay, let's
you know, just here, what we're gonna do. So anyway,
you know, he liked it, and you know, so he
you know, so I ended up you know, rewrite and
then you know, from that, you know, so I went
down to set and you know, I have a little
cameo in the film, and you know, got to you know,
kind of experience that that world of on the fly filmmaking.

(17:53):
But even better, like even like I think more importantly,
it really taught me how to write to budget without
like losing any creativity. And you know, a lot of times, yeah,
people would love to have Like I just told this
story to somebody earlier today who you know, because I
don't usually bring this stuff up in conversation, you know,

(18:14):
in conversation, but sometimes you know, people will know about
it and say like, well, how did you you know,
like you know, what's tell me about that? And so anyway,
I was just telling this very exact story earlier about
how there was a scene where it was like a
busload of tourists and attacked by the camel spiders and
you know, it was it wasn't essential to the story,
but it had a point, like there was a reason

(18:34):
it was there to move the story forward. And you know,
the first thing that Jim did. When you read that
that new scene was like, no, can't do it. I
got to get a bus. I got to get at
least twenty extras. I got to put him up for
a day. I got to feed all of them. I
got it. You know, He's like, do something else, like
take it out, figure out, you know. So it was
like it was kind of like this like boot camp

(18:55):
on you know, writing effective, low budget you know, genre pieces,
and you know from there, you know, then you know,
I pitched uh Parana Conda. So ended up doing like
three different treatments and they all got rejected, which was
really frustrating, and then came on to do some uncredited rewrites,

(19:17):
you know Jim wanted, you know. And I don't even
know if that was like cause my second child was
or my first child was being born at the time,
so like I was supposed to go out to set,
but you know, and I say this, like I don't
regret it at all, not going out to set, but
you know, so I don't know, like if you know,
so it was just like it was like such a
like I was kind of a bit of a letdown
in that sense, like I really wanted to like be

(19:39):
more involved in that project because you know, it was
my you know, and I you know, thankfully, because like
I feel like I've only ever had handshake deals with Jim.
You know, I did get you know, concept and you
know credit and you know all that, you know, like
the you know, like the credit for it, and.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
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and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (20:05):
You know that that's great, but I wanted to do
more hands on writing. And then, you know, since then,
Jim and I have you know, co written probably at
least three other like full screenplays, none of which have
been produced, but all were like on the docket, were
going to happen, and then, for whatever reason, you know,
funding fell through on one something you know, something else

(20:26):
got you know, a slate got you know. It was
kind of like just the typical reasons movies never get made.
So but each time I learned something, you know, it
was it's yeah, it was a really great experience. And
you know, the movies are low budget creature features, but
I feel like from a writing perspective, you know, they
were invaluable experiences and I really you know, to this day,

(20:49):
you know, I'm sure like you know, Jim probably will
never even listen to the screen or this podcast. But
even if I send it to him, I say listen,
you know, I probably like won't get around to it.
So I'm saying this, like, you know, just as an
actual fact, Like you know, I feel like I've learned
so much from him and like his like you know,
just like taking a chance on like some random person

(21:09):
who emailed him was you know, unbelievable, and you know,
like I just feel like, you know, there's people that
I know that I'll email and like won't get back
to me. You know. I mean, like it's so so
it's you know, I think, you know, there's so much
luck involved in the film industry and so like so
I would never sit here and say like, oh, yeah,
it was because I was such a good writer, you know,

(21:31):
you know, anybody who succeed, you know, I feel like
it's easy for people to kind of like, you know,
after having like some sort of not even like success,
but like just something happens that's good or you know,
you move forward, that you can create this sort of
narrative saying like well it was because of this and
this and kind of piece together random things and say
that's why, but you know, in reality, it's just like

(21:54):
a bunch of random things that happened. And yes, I
was prepared and I was ready and all those kind
of things, but you know, it's you know, I think
you know, for any again, like anybody who's listening who's like,
you know, trying to like get a script made or
get like, it's it's probably not your fault that you know,
like that the screenplay is not you know, going into

(22:15):
production like it's you know, and that's I think that's
hard though to accept. And but I but I also
think like once you do accept it and you know
kind of understand, like have like sort of like a
semi like kind of like zen demeanor about it all,
I think it makes the whole process that much more
enjoyable and actually, you know, maybe even more fruitful.

Speaker 4 (22:34):
So you know, you're right about people not getting back
to you on emails. Like I have friends that I've
known for like ten years won't respond to an email,
you know. And I'll email somebody, you know, I found
their website just ask my question or maybe you know,
talk to me about coming on the podcast right away.
They'll respond in a heartbeat and I'm and I'm always like, what,

(22:55):
you know, what the hell is that?

Speaker 5 (22:56):
You know what yeah, yeah, you know it's hard to
and I feel like, but what that did is you know,
like I feel like I've always been like relatively generous
with my time, but I feel like, you know, because
of well, like I just I just feel like I
always use that as an example of like I'm never
like too important or too good or too busy or

(23:18):
too whatever to like respond back, like I'm like even
if I can't help the person or like, it's not
a thing like you know, like that I'm in a
position to you know, like it is like a random
like somebody just you know, like I always try to,
like and if not like always do it, like always
at least try to like give some sort of response,
no matter how short it might be, because that's like not

(23:40):
the norm. And you know, it's just it's just frustrating
to me to think, like of how many like people
just stop like because that's the other thing I mean
is I'm sure you know, you know and anybody you know,
like people like who like are interested in this world.
That it's just like it takes so much persistence and
so much like just like you know, it's not even

(24:02):
about like not taking no for an answer or not,
like it's like it's like just like not just being
completely like like debilitatingly like defeated by rejection and just
like indifference that's the problem. Like I would rather deal
with rejection honestly than indifference or you know, somebody just
being like oh, I don't know, you know, like just

(24:22):
like whatever, Like I'm not going to respond to that.
Like I'd rather if somebody say, like, no, this is
a terrible screenplay, You're stupid, then just like not just
kind of be like, hey, what's going And I feel
like that happens more often it is like nobody wants
to like say no, or nobody wants to like take
a position because then you know they have to they're accountable,
and you know that's tough. Like I see that a

(24:44):
lot in programming film programming for myself, Like you know,
I have to like tell filmmakers that I have a
relationship with every year. You know, there there's a handful
where it's where I you know, it's I have to
make a phone call. That's not a positive phone call.
It's saying we can't you know, I can and find
a spot for your film in the program this year.
But I feel like, out of respect for that person,

(25:05):
I respect for that relationship, you know, like you got
to kind of like own up to it and say, yeah,
like here, here's you know, here's the feedback I have.
Like here, you know, I wish it, you know, I
wish it could have been different. But you know, I
feel like a lot of times like people aren't willing
to sort of like take that responsibility, and I think

(25:26):
that creates sort of an environment where it's okay to
like just ignore stuff or kick stuff down the line
to somebody else take care of it. And you know,
I don't know, I'm not saying I'm a saint for
doing it, but it's just like that's that's how I
want to be treated, you know. So I feel like
the least I can do is try to like put
that out in sort of a pay it forward style.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Well, you know, when House of a Thousand Corpses came out,
Sid Hague, who was in the movie, actually said what
we wanted was either people to love it or hate it.
So at the advanced screenings of it, he said, you know,
they gave out those feedback forms and he said anytime
they had somebody love it or hate it, they're like,
that's great what they hated to see. Though, with somebody

(26:10):
giving it like a five out of ten, it's just like,
you know, this movie wasn't good or bad. I didn't feel,
you know, one way or the other. He said, I
want to get you out of that indifference and push
you to one one extreme or the other.

Speaker 5 (26:22):
Yeah, totally, and I totally agree with that. It's like
you just want a reaction. I think so much about
film and art and you know anything, really most things
I guess is you know that you want somebody to
like just like be engaged or aware or marketing too.
It's like you want to make an impression, you know,
ideally like a positive impression. But you know, yeah, I

(26:47):
think you could kind of apply that across the board.

Speaker 4 (26:50):
Yeah, very true. You know I've seen that too in
screenplays that you know, I've been asking have feedback on.
I'm always you know, trying to you know, there was
a saying one time a screen writing teacher. Wentz told me,
I believe it was a maximum, maximum value, maximum entertainment,
and he said that maximum entertainment ends up taking you

(27:10):
to these extremes.

Speaker 5 (27:11):
Then so be it.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
You know, like you've seen I mean, for instance, the
Hatchet films. I don't know if you've seen the Hatchet films,
but they're sort of like a splotter House type film.
You know, there's a lot of gore, a lot of bloodshed.
Some people just don't get those, you know, movies, but
you know, guys like me, I'm like, hey, this is
this is freaking hilarious.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
Yeah, oh I love I mean, I love genre films,
like I feel like those like I mean, I would
much rather watch a bad genre film than a mediocre
you know, kind of narrative like drama, you know that
like might have more prestige or might have a name
actor or something like that. And believe me, like I
watch a lot of movies that don't get you know,

(27:52):
like a release, you know, like you know, because I
pre screened for Sundance, I programmed for Seattle, and then
also like you know, there's a couple of other film
festivals that like I'm like a friend of the you know,
like kind of like hey this might look or what
do you think you know, like get a question like
what do you think of this movie? Or what you know,
like that kind of thing. Plus you know, on Twitter,

(28:12):
like I get people that send me Vimeo links all
the time, which I highly encourage. Like I feel like,
you know, like to take advantage of all those sort
of like network effects that might exist and channels that
you might have access to. And I feel like Twitter
is like a really great way to like build community
and and get to know people and kind of like
just be part of you know, no matter what place

(28:35):
you're in, even around the world, you know, part of
like the conversation around you know, indie film and what's happening,
and you know, it's just yeah, I feel like there's
like you got to it's about like participating in the process. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:52):
I've always said that Twitter is with one of the
best or if not the best networking tools ever seen.
I've met so many people because of Twitter and just
you know, keeping that social part of social media, because
I mean, you know, if I want to talk to somebody,
I'll follow them. I will make sure to send them
a tweet, you know, talk about you know, something off

(29:12):
their bio. I hate when people follow me and either
don't say anything or they immediately try to get me
to do something for them. Like, Hey, Dave, check out
my social media link, my craft funding link.

Speaker 5 (29:23):
Can you retweet this?

Speaker 4 (29:24):
And I'm like, I'm like, I don't even know who
you are, Like it's just ludicrous.

Speaker 5 (29:30):
Yeah, it really is. And I think that's a great
point that you know, so many people especially you know,
and this is this is kind of like about you know,
indie film marketing or crowdfunding or you know, anything that
involves like kind of like a transactional relationship. Is that
you know, people want to go from like zero to
sixty immediately. That like as soon as like somebody connects

(29:53):
with something or fans something or likes or whatever. You know,
the you know sort of like the metric is or
the you know, the standard is on whatever platform.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Right, we'll be right back after a word from our
sponsor and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (30:12):
Like they immediately are like, hey, do this thing, or
do that thing, or now that I've got your attention,
you know, sign up for these five newsletters that I
have or or and it's just overwhelming because you know
a lot of people are doing that, and you know,
everybody doesn't have to be a pundant, you know, and
everybody doesn't have to be you know, like I think

(30:32):
it's great to have opinions about stuff, but you know,
sometimes it's good to listen sometimes. Like I feel like
that's sort of like the key. Like if I just say, like,
if is there a key to like social media engagement,
I would say it's being a good listener. It's not
being a good tweeter. It's not being a good like
you know, meme maker or gift creator or like any
of that stuff. Yeah, that helps, right, But it's like

(30:52):
if you're not listening to like the tone and sort
of like the scale or like the you know, sort
of like where the conversation's going, you're gonna just like
come in. You're going to be that person at a
party that like, you know, like barges in. It's like, hey,
every you know, it's like you're wearing a toga and
it's a you know, it's a wake or something right,

(31:13):
and nobody you know. Like I always like use like
sort of an analogy of like Twitter and social media
in general just kind of being like an extension of
a cocktail party. And you know, sometimes you talk to
one person, sometimes you talk to a group of people.
Sometimes you talk to everyone that's in your your room,
but you know, it's you have to know appropriate like
times to like when to do those like when to

(31:36):
have the bullhorn out and when to just you know,
you know, or when to direct message like it's yeah,
and and I think it is, Like I absolutely agree
with you about Twitter being such a great tool, especially
for people in you know, kind of like freelance or
creative kind of roles or content creators or whatever that

(31:56):
you know, kind of those kind of groups look like
or you know, I think Twitter is so much better
than LinkedIn or even Facebook, that it's such a professional.
Like the way I kind of set it up is like,
you know, Facebook is kind of like my broad you know,
like sometimes I'll share family stuff, sometimes I'll share you know,
but like actually even don't spend that much time like
other than for clients, like for my personal Facebook, whereas

(32:18):
I spend a lot of time on Twitter, like reading
news and fallowing, you know, like interacting with people and
sharing stuff about other people's projects or local like Pacific
Northwest filmmaker stuff. You know. LinkedIn again like kind of
same with Facebook, but it's like even less personal. It's
more business y. And Instagram it's just like pictures of

(32:39):
my kids, you know, and I think like each of
those channels have different content styles and they have different
tones and you know, so like all of those things
like that, it's hard to teach, Like you can't really
necessarily learn what works and what doesn't work from like
an article that's like top five ways to become a

(33:00):
you know, top engager on Twitter or something like. You
just have to like be part of the conversation and
be part of the community. And if you're not willing
to take the time to do that, then you can't expect,
you know, the community to embrace you when you have
an ask for them or a need or you know,
because then it will seem like you're just you know,

(33:21):
just coming in and you know, just with your handout,
and you know that's never good. That's you know, interpersonally
or you know. I mean, yeah, I could go on
and on about like you know, sort of like the
like my thinking on sort of like what underlies good
social media engagement and like community and communication. But you know,

(33:44):
it's really not that difficult. It's like, would you you know,
what you would do in real life, like in the
real world, you know, it's not that much different.

Speaker 4 (33:53):
I was reading a very good book by Gary Vannerchuk.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
Yeah, you know a jab jab jab bread hook, which
is you know, give, give, give, ask. And one of
the things that Gary was always talking about was, you know,
social listening and stop always using it as like a bullhorn,
but actually ask you know, hey, you know what's your
biggest problem in business?

Speaker 5 (34:12):
Hey? What?

Speaker 4 (34:12):
You know what what could be better in this? And
then you know, once he would you know, give solutions
or give this, then he would ask something of them,
so it would be about an eighty twenty ratio of
you know, asking to giving. I'm sorry, giving to asking,
so you know, give out giving eight percent of time, asking,
you know, twenty percent of the time. And he you know,
that's what he's been using. And you know, I mean

(34:33):
it's just when I see things like that, you know
immediately like people just you know, Joran meet and Jordian like,
hey click this link or hey, you know follow me
or this or that. I just tuned it out on
One thing I just got into recently was Instagram. I
have gotten so big in Instagram and I never really
thought about it that much, and I finally figured out

(34:56):
how to use it the way I want to use it,
and now now it's almost become like it's pushing out
Twitter as my favorite social media platform. So now I'm
just like I'm on Twitter and Instagram right now.

Speaker 5 (35:08):
Yeah. Well, and I think like Instagram is just going
to keep growing, and I think you're going to see
a lot of you know, uh activity on Snapchat and
things are just gonna get more and more visual and
you know and shorter and emojis and like all the
like you know, it's and it's like you can either say, like,
I mean, I'm thirty, I gotta be forty years old January.

(35:30):
And you know, I'm not a digital native. I'm not
a millennial. But I'm also you know, like a lifelong learner,
I guess I would describe myself. And so I feel
like there's a lot of people who are kind of like, ah,
you know, social media that's you know, for kids, or
that's for this or that, or it's you know, not relevant,
or I don't need to be on social media, and yeah,

(35:51):
maybe somebody doesn't who's like like Wes Anderson, like it's
not gonna, you know, the film director is not going
to help him necessarily to be on social media or
Sophia Coppola. You know, like somebody like already established kind
of in you know, like in that last kind of
like golden period of you know, the three picture deal
and you know kind of like you know, having your
your way paid by studios and mini majors, whereas like now,

(36:15):
you know, I feel like if you're again like a
creative like freelancer or filmmaker, content creator whatever again like
any of those kind of groups, you know, I think
it's essential to at least have a presence there and
be part of the community. And you know, I think
your instincts are right on the money as far as
like you know, like Instagram and you know, like Snapchat,

(36:37):
and you know, I have to learn, like I every day,
Like I ask our intern. Not every day, not every day,
you know, I don't want because because it's a big ask,
but like at least once a week, I can say
that honestly, Like I ask our intern who's twenty four
years old, to tell me like something new about Snapchat,
Like what do I not know about Snapchat? Or what
do I need to like what's a new thing on

(36:58):
Instagram that I need to be aware of? Or you know,
because I don't know all of that, and it's hard
to like keep track of all that stuff. You know,
you're not going to get it, you know, just by
getting a couple of news letters from you know, social
media business you know, like or whatever. Right, It's like
I feel like it comes like, you know, it's like
face to face kind of like tell me what I
don't know. And I feel like that, you know, applies

(37:21):
to anything. You know. I think it's just the right
way to to learn and stay in the mix. Yeah,
very true.

Speaker 4 (37:28):
You know, because when I see social media strategies for
for filmmakers, you know, usually what they try to do
is they just say listen, you know, we'll you know,
they'll do it themselves. They'll crowd you know, when they're crowdfunding,
they try to do that themselves. And you're like, yeah,
you know, I'll answer as it comes in. And you know,
one of the things that I've always said is, you know,
you need to have a better plan than that.

Speaker 5 (37:49):
It's sort of like, oh yeah, it's sort of.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
Like if you know, hey, if something bit happens, you
know in production, uh, you know, we'll we'll figure out
a way. Who forget planning, forget all that that pre
planning stuff who needs it?

Speaker 5 (38:01):
Yeah, you know, and that's just a recipe for disaster.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
Yes, you know, and that's very true. And you know,
you know, as we're talking about you know, social strategies,
you know, you've worked with a lot of you know,
really great companies if you work with HBO, and you've
also worked with one of my favorites, which which is
Draft House Films. Oh yeah, and you know, so you know,
how did you end up you know, meeting with some
of these companies and getting to work with them.

Speaker 5 (38:26):
So you know, in in HBO's case, it was just
a referral word of mouth. Like we haven't really you know,
Smart House Creative hasn't really done any advertising yet other
than like some promoted posts on Facebook and some you know,
like some Facebook ads, but not more than I think
like two hundred and fifty dollars total over you know, recently.
And we're that's changing in January, like we're sponsoring a

(38:48):
party at Sundance and like I mean like January and
like twenty sixteen forward is more like you know, we're
gonna take a more like as far as like marketing
goes for us, we had been more focusing on content marketing.
We still will be, but you know, we're going to
do a little bit more traditional kind of marketing as well.
So you know, but up until then, it was just

(39:10):
uh word of mouth. So you know, just the HBO
was doing a big premiere for one of their their shows,
Looking here in Seattle, and one of our clients is
Three Dollars Bill Cinema, which is the LGBTQ film nonprofit
film organization that they they produced the Seattle Lesbian and

(39:32):
Gay Film Festival. So we've been working them with them
for two years and uh, you know, we're like their
agency of record now and so it was like, hey,
we're going to do this. We're going to do something
with three dollars Bill. Like how do we pull this off?
And it was just like, okay, you guys got to
work with Smart House. And so we did like a
kind of a live tweet tour with one of the
stars from Looking all over Capitol Hill, going to like

(39:55):
gay friendly businesses and.

Speaker 3 (39:58):

Speaker 5 (40:07):
Just you know, just like just being in the community.
It was a lot of fun and that was a
you know, a great, great experience and then with Draft
House that relationship developed because uh we had been I
had been doing uh the social media and and kind
of like broad general you know, kind of digital strategy

(40:28):
for Amira and Sam which I mentioned earlier, uh director
Sean Mullen West Point Grad. So uh, you know that
was just like a really nice fit. It was like,
I'm gonna help these guys out on their film. It's
and then that was before they even got distribution from
Draft Hoss. Like that was still like as they were

(40:49):
kind of like on the festival circuit, and then when
that happened, it became like a you know, now it's
like let's rally the you know circle awagas how are
we gonna So it was really great working with Draft Out,
who had a you know, many more resources and a
lot of people in the mix. And you know, there
was a you know, some like controversy about some of
the costumes in the film, like with the h job

(41:12):
and how it was worn with a mirror's character and
you know, so there was like some like you know,
sort of like pr style crisis control and like it
was it was really interesting. There was a lot, like
I learned a lot from that whole you know, because
they were you know, doing some tug screenings and doing
some h you know. One of the actors in the
film in a supporting role is Paul Wesley who's in

(41:35):
The Vampire Diaries. And you know, I wasn't aware really
of how big of a star he was on you know,
in general, but especially on social media. But his Twitter
following is like it's you know, probably close to four
million people by now. I think it was like three
point six million or something at the time. So anytime

(41:55):
we would tweet something that he would either retweet, you know,
like that he interacted with somehow, it would just like
just drive engagement through the roof and people like if
you were to retweet a tweet about like signing up
for AMRA and Sam's news letter, people would be retweeting
and favoring that tweet, like you know, I would say,

(42:16):
like at least probably a month after it was originally
sent out. So you know, it's just it's just crazy.
And that really, to me like demonstrates, you know, kind
of the power of social media and you know, kind
of thinking about, you you know, how that integrates into
your casting strategy because I think in the past, you know,
It used to be about, you know, sort of the

(42:38):
what is the international sales or the bankability of a
star overseas, So it's like can this star make money
for us? And when we you know, pre sales overseas
or something. And I think that's still you know, part
of the equation. But I think now if you had
two actors and they were both you know, to to
like lead female role, right, and they're they're both great,

(43:01):
and you know, everything else is equal, but one of
them has two million Twitter followers and one has like
isn't on Twitter as like one hundred or you know,
just doesn't focus on social media. And I said, like
everything else is equal, like there's not like a difference
in talent or anything. I absolutely would hire the one
with two million Twitter followers because that is going to

(43:22):
come and you know, into play when the film is
on the festival circuit, when it's in release, and it's
going to make a difference. So you know, I think
all that stuff is now you know, we're starting to
see that built into some of the strategies. But that's
kind of like how that you know, that whole part
of that you know, came together.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
Yeah, you know, I was talking about crowdfunding before with
some podcast guests, and one of the you know crowdfunding
you know specialists actually said that's one of the things
he always looks at was, you know, he talks to
the directors, talks to the producers and says, you know,
whoever you have cast it in this film, I would
like to see their social media platform as well, because

(44:00):
you know, there's some people who say, no, I'm not
on social media at all, and then there's others who,
you know, some actors and actresses who take it upon
themselves and like, look, we got to promote ourselves. So
they have the Instagram, they have the Twitter, they have
the Facebook, and they have a pretty good, you know,
a pretty good following, and you're just just to go
back to Gary Vanderchuk, you know, one thing again. He
one thing he also said was with versus depth, and

(44:22):
he said, you know, likes and comments and you know,
retweets are all with and he said, the depth is
where you come in where you have like that engagement
and then you have that conversion rate of them signing
up for newsletters and everything else. And one thing I
took away from it is he said, go one inch
wide and a mile deep.

Speaker 5 (44:40):
I like that. Yeah, I've heard similar. Yeah, I mean
I couldn't agree more with that, you know, sort of
general philosophy about you know, like really finding I mean
it speaks. I don't know if it was Fannerchuk who
who said this or or who this was maybe with
Seth Godin or somebody like that, but like the idea
of true fans, like finding those true fans that are

(45:01):
out there, your ambassadors, like you're like with the movie
that's Smart House just acquired called Chatty Caddies, Like I
feel like there are people out there that love love,
love this movie and they're gonna be great ambassadors for
the film. And there are people that love love, love
love cats obviously, and when those two kind of ven

(45:24):
diagrams overlap, I feel like there's the potential at least
for you know, that sort of like al come you know,
alchemy that happens sometimes with social media where it becomes
like people start sharing stuff and talking about stuff, and
I think it's going to be you know, potentially divisive film.
Like you know, it won the Jury Prize at SIF
and sold out its screenings and but some people were

(45:47):
still like, oh that movie, Like I talking cats like
I just don't you know, so people didn't like it
at all, whereas other people thought it was the best
thing they ever And that to me is like a
really good sign. And that speaks to what we just
talked about earlier in the podcast, you know, when you
said about like forget uh sid Hey, you know, you
either want people to love something or hate something. You

(46:08):
don't want them to be indifferent or ambivalent, and I
think that is really key, especially when it comes to distribution.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
So, you know, Brad, one of the other questions you know,
I had for you was, you know, how do filmmakers,
you know, approach smarthouse creative? You know, do you sort
of find them or do they find you? Or is
it like a mixture of both.

Speaker 5 (46:28):
Well, I think because we're so new in the space
that it's more us finding them, because like I said,
I see a lot of movies sort of in the
you know, the film equivalent of galleys for publishing, and
you know these are picture lock or rough cuts, and
you know, you get a good like it's a you know,

(46:49):
you can evaluate. You know, I feel like feel pretty
good like it with my gut instinct about being able
like once a film has its picture locked, you know,
I don't care if it's missing, you know, doesn't have
color correction, doesn't have finished sound, it's got a tempt score,
all these other things like you know, that doesn't matter
because the story is there, and if the story is
not going to change, you know, I feel pretty confident

(47:12):
saying I can evaluate you know, the film on its merits,
those most important merits the story. So you know, up
until now, you know, it's been like there's just like
a you know, sort of like a wealth of films.
But I think like once Chatty Caddies gets out, and

(47:32):
I think once you know that that other film that
we produced in house called Thirteen Chambers, which is a
genre kind of supernatural anthology directed by thirteen different female
filmmakers from the Seattle area, which I'm super excited about.
I've seen some early rough cuts of those films and

(47:54):
they're just blowing my mind, Like I so so excited
to see that, like a see the rest of them.
But it's it's kind of a great. Yeah, it's great.
It's like Christmas Christmas morning. Every time like a new
filmmaker brings in the computer with the rough cut ands
like all right here. Here's what I got so far,
and it's like, oh my gosh, show me more. I
can't wait to see the rest, you know, so like

(48:17):
we'll be releasing that one ourselves as well. And you
know it's it's like once you I think understand sort
of like the infrastructure, have you know, some some trusted
guides in place to help navigate that landscape, because you know,
it's sort of like the wild West right now with
film distribution. So you know, what what I would like

(48:38):
is for Smart House to you know, sort of develop
into you know, what might be considered like the filmmakers distributor.
And you know, I kind of see you know, like
the deal that we worked out with Chatty Caddies. You know,
we we have an ownership stake in the film Smart
House does, so you know, there's no agency problem. It's

(48:59):
not like we're just like you know, licensing it and
we're gonna you know, distribute it and as soon as
it you know, like it becomes part of our cattle.
Like it's like we're in it for the long haul
and we're working very closely with the filmmakers. And you
know the quote that Pablo Valencia, who's the co writer
and director of the film you know gave for the
Indie Wire article. Like you know, when I when he

(49:22):
first sent that to me, I was like blushing because
I was like, oh my gosh, like I you know,
it was it was like really like that's but that's
exactly like what I wanted, you know, to convey to
film is like this is a home for filmmakers because
as a filmmaker myself, you know, or producer like in
that kind of space, I know how difficult it is

(49:43):
that I know how unfair a lot of you know,
the the deals are that are offered to a lot
of filmmakers, which is what drives them honestly, like and
and truthfully into a di y release or into like
a kind of like a hastily cobbled together.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
and now back to the show, you.

Speaker 5 (50:12):
Know, sort of like let's just get this out there.
And you know, it's like they're kind of left hanging,
and so you know, I think eventually, like you know,
I'm like, you know, as far as like how to
you know, I would love for filmmakers to send us there.
You know, there they are films that you know, the
picture lock stage and you know, we can evaluate it,
but I think we're going to be very very you know,

(50:35):
we're still sort of like chatty caddies. I think is
a really interesting, you know, sort of a model template
for what a smart house film looks like. And Ryan,
my business partner, and I, you know, talk at length
about what does a smart house film look like? And
it's one of those things where it's like, well, well,
no when we see it, but also you know, it's

(50:56):
it's not something that you could It's not like a
carbon copy or an imitation of what's playing at the multiplex,
because then you know, people like there's not like a
moral imperative necessarily to go see an independent film. It's
not like that's like a marketing hook for anyone, you know. Unfortunately,
you know, for you know, I don't mean to burst
in anyone's bubbles, but I'm just saying, like, you know,

(51:18):
my parents in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, like don't give a care
if it's an independent film or not. They don't care
how it was made. They just care if it's a
good movie that they want to see. So, you know,
by trying to find movies that you know, are comparable
to you know, it's an indie. You know, it's an
indie taken three or you know, it's an indie you

(51:39):
know insert you know aloha or something right like that
doesn't I mean, that doesn't do any good. And I
feel like it just kind of sets you up for failure.
So it's like that's why, like a movie like Chatty
Caddy's which is so like just you know, aclectic and
risky in my in my opinion, but you know, like
I said, it still managed to sell out tos and

(52:00):
win the jury prize at a major film festival that
was its world premiere. You know, I feel like, you know,
that's like a really that's like a risk worth taking
in my book, And I feel like that's the whole
reason to get into film distribution or filmmaking is to
take those kind of risks, because you know, you don't
want to just like throw your you know, like kind

(52:21):
of just be like another voice among like a you know,
chattering crowd of thousands of people doing the same thing.
It's like, you know, ideally like you want to stand
out in a positive way and you know kind of
be like a beacon in a sense of for like
what's possible even if it's not per you know, like
you know, there's never going to be that perfect film
or there's never going to be you know that sort

(52:42):
of like perfect strategy or whatever. But you know, again,
it's all about learning and it's about like, you know,
continual incremental improvement is kind of how I like to
look at it.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
So that's and you're right about the online distribution because
you know, a lot of filmmakers. On the previous episode
that I had on, two filmmakers from Canada and they
released their film through VHX. They actually spent you know years,
they actually finished the film in twenty twelve, and they

(53:13):
then spent years going to these distributors and asking, hey,
you know, what do you have for us? And their
answer was, well, oh, it's a comedy, Okay, who's in it?
We don't know any of these people forget it and
he and you know, one of the guys, I think,
Bob Wooseley, he actually said, you know, one of the
things he learned was if you're going to do a comedy,
an indie comedy, you have to have some kind of name,

(53:35):
whether it's like a Patent Oswald or you know, a
Bill Murray, you know, but if you do horror, horror
is a lot easier to sell.

Speaker 5 (53:46):
Yeah, well that's you know, that's in no small part
why like if we were going to produce a film,
our first film, which we did, thirteen Chambers, aligns with
the horror genre. Like, you know, that wasn't an accident,
and I totally agree with that. And I feel like,
you know, you can't compromise artistic integrity, but at the

(54:06):
same time, you also want to be completely and fully
aware of the realities of the marketplace. And I think
that's like what often happens is you either have one
or the other. You've got a producer who just cares
about product and you know, so they create something that's
kind of a cookie cutter thing. Maybe it'll make money,
which is good, but it's not really adding anything to

(54:28):
the artistic conversation. And then on the other hand, you've got,
you know, a filmmaker that is just only cares about,
you know, his or her vision and doesn't necessarily take
into account that film exists in a commercial marketplace. You know,
it's it's not like an art museum or you know,
unless you're making like a twelve hour experimental you know

(54:51):
kind of perform you know, visual art thing, which is fine,
go ahead and do it if you can find somebody
to pay, you know, like I'm trying to remember the
Maybe it's Christian Barclay. I don't remember the exact name
of the person, but the artist who made that twenty
four hour film The Clock, you know, I think like

(55:11):
that that consists of just like you know, images of
time in film, like that's fat. I would love to
see that, and people pay huge amounts of money to
have it screened and to own a print of it,
and it's kind of a one of a kind thing.
But you know, outside of those like examples or like
a Matthew Barney, you know, sort of like hybrid experimental

(55:34):
slash just weirdo experiment, those opportunities don't exist for most
independent if not all, independent filmmakers. So you've got to
find that balance point. You have to find that sweet spot.
And it's tough. You know, I'm not saying that I
or Smart House or you know, anybody that I know

(55:55):
has like the solution or the perfect solution or it's
like I feel like we're all learning, but I feel
like the more that we're able to share through you know,
through channels like social media or being on a podcast
like this, or you know, connecting at a film festival
or something like that, you know, kind of share what
we've learned in the experiences. Like I feel like that's

(56:15):
going to help, you know, the next project that somebody
makes or two projects down the road. You know, I
think you're going to see that sort of cumulative positive impact.
But that's what you know, that's what I hope for
at least. But you know, it's tough independent filmmaking like
anything right now. Is it's like just like a tough,

(56:37):
tough world. Like it's just you know, it just is
it just you got to be a real scrapper. You
got to be a real hustler, I guess, you know,
in a positive you know, like not like where you're
like scamming somebody, but where you're just like always like
trying to like make an improvement somewhere. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (56:55):
I concur I also, you know, Brett, I have a
feeling that the next coming years, I think everything's going
to come back on the upswing. I just have this feeling.
I can just see the economy approving here and there,
you know, I think it's it's going to come back,
and I think the people are going to have a
lot more disposable income, and you know, hopefully some of

(57:16):
this stuff will will you know, be eased up, so
you know, but at least that's my hope.

Speaker 5 (57:21):
Yeah, that'd be great.

Speaker 4 (57:23):
So you know, Brad, I I know, you know, we've
been talking for almost an hour and I know you're busy.
I had one fan question come in that I really
wanted to make sure to ask you particularly.

Speaker 5 (57:33):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
This is actually from Bob Woosley, who I just was
mentioning about who was on the podcast, said before you
and he said sorry. His question is, with so many
platforms out there, where do you start when I'm planning
a social media strategy?

Speaker 5 (57:50):
Well, you know, that is a great question, and so
so here's like that's so I want to like actually
like give a legitimate response to this that somebody could
actually you know, take action on in a practical kind
of way. So I think the first thing you have
to figure out is, like the first response is it
depends and it really does, and it depends on your project.

(58:12):
It depends on your audience. And I feel like you
have to really know your project very very well. So
if you're the filmmaker, the producer, it's like that should
you should, So that's good, You've got that information already.
And then based on like what you learn from your
crowdfunding campaign if you did one, or what you've learned
from you know, sort of like work in progress screenings

(58:33):
if you've done any of those, which I you know,
find to be like very helpful, you know, not like
we have to have like a formal audience feedback surveying
kind of thing, but it's more like you know, friends
and family or trusted advisors you know, or you know,
kind of confident kind of thing, and you know, it's
like you're figuring out like what your audience looks like
and and who they are, you know, or like what

(58:55):
who they might align with, you know, out in the
world right like maybe developing some personas and you know,
then I then I think it really comes down to
how much capacity you have to manage each of these channels,
because you know, each of the channels, Like the worst
thing you could do is, you know, set it up
so that whatever you post on Facebook also gets automatically tweeted,

(59:19):
which also you know, you know, you take a picture
and post it on Instagram, and then you also just
like say, like you know, hit all those buttons that
say like post a Facebook and post to Twitter and
post it to like It's like that's like the absolute
wrong way to do it, and that's a good indicator
that you're like stretch too thin and you want to
like really focus on you know, one or two channels.

(59:43):
And before I go into more about that, and I
want to make this like a huge like you know,
mini class or something like that, but you know, I
think you can get a lot of traction out of
a hashtag.

Speaker 3 (59:57):

Speaker 5 (01:00:06):
So for instance, like I'll say, like I'll kind of
like give like a case study style example here with
our film thirteen Chambers. So in that case, like you know,
it would be real easy to say, like, oh, we're
gonna you know, we're gonna make a Facebook page for
this movie, and then we're going to make a Twitter
account for this movie because people are going to want

(01:00:27):
to follow it. We're going to make an Instagram account
because you know, we have to have a presence on
all these different places. Right well, you know, if you
already have an established, you know, like the filmmaker has
an established presence, or the actors do, or you know,
the company who produced it does, like if all those
things are already in place. And one of the things
that we talk about a lot at Smart House is

(01:00:47):
this kind of idea of filmmaker first, So you know,
so like in Bob's case, it's more about positioning him
as a filmmaker who has multiple projects you know in
the pipeline. He's got this one that he's working on
right now, but you know there's two more coming down
the pike, and it's really you know, neck and neck
which one's going to get made. But you know it's

(01:01:09):
filmmaker first because those projects have a limited shelf life,
whereas you know, Bob's career is going to hopefully, you know,
be you know, much longer lasting than any one single project.
So you know, based on that, you know, you know,
I would say, like you know, for for thirteen Chambers,
like we're doing most of our engagement via the hashtag.

(01:01:31):
So anytime like I personally tweet anything, or smart House does,
or one of the filmmakers or whatever, we just make
sure we include the hashtag and then you could go
onto apps or you know, platforms like tag board or
hash at it. There's there's like a whole bunch if
you search like hashtag like search engines, and what they'll

(01:01:51):
do is you can embed this then in your website
or you know, you know, because I think every film
should definitely have website, Like you need to have a website,
so like you know, and you know, that's like sort
of like because eventually you're gonna want to embed your
vod you know, kind of Vimeo on Demand or VHX

(01:02:16):
or gum Road or if you do it through quiver,
Like I mean, there's all these options, right, but you
want to have your like you want to have like
an anchor, and I think, you know, the film's website
should be the anchor. Now if that is the filmmaker,
and like then it could be like you know, Bob
Woolsey dot com backslash film title right, Like it doesn't

(01:02:36):
like you don't have to create brand new things for
every single project that you do. You should try to
like integrate them. And this is where the digital strategy
comes into play. Integrate them as well as well as
you can and as smartly as you can. So again
it's like so for thirteen Chambers, Right, We're gonna have
a website thirteen Chambers Movie, and then the film eventually

(01:02:57):
like after you know, we'll try to do a theatric
release to whatever extent that we are able to, you know,
through independent film theaters and everything, and then once that
revenue stream has diminished to a certain point, then will
make it available through our website, through the filmmakers' websites,

(01:03:18):
you know, everywhere you can inbed because I found actually
that like one of the key like the leading indicators
I think for like all the data that you can
get through Vimeo on demand is the number of times
that the embedded player, like the trailer gets loaded. Is
seems to be at least indicative of a higher Like

(01:03:41):
I'm not so you know, I'm not a statistician, but
I do understand statistics. So I'm not saying, you know
that this correlation means causation, right, Like it's you got
to take it all with a grain of salt. But
the more times that the embedded player gets loaded, you know,
like the when when those are the highest, those numbers
are the highest. It's also you know, correlates to a

(01:04:03):
higher number of sales or rentals. So so I think
the more places you could have the trailer embedded through
the Vimeo you know sort of embedded, you know that
the code that you can get that that's like a
really strong tactic when it comes to like your your
online kind of sales strategy. So but beyond that though,

(01:04:26):
all the other social channels that we've already established, my
personal Twitter, smart House's Twitter, smart House's Facebook page, my
personal Facebook page, smart House's Instagram, my personal Instagram, smart
House Snapchat. That that's where we're going to be promoting
and pushing the film via the hashtag thirteen Chambers and
then kind of aggregating all of that content that's out

(01:04:49):
there to see you know, what kind of traction we
get and using tools like tweet Reach and topsy and
you know, there's a couple other free ones that are
out there that will allow you to kind of see
kind of like who's like, who's talking about the film
via this hashtag and who to follow up with and

(01:05:12):
what kind of insights you can glean from that. So,
you know, as far as it comes to like picking
a you know, a platform, like what I what I
would say is like go with what you already have
established and excuse me, work the hashtag into it. And
if you don't have anything established, then I would say

(01:05:32):
start with your own personal channels first. So establish yourself
on Twitter first, establish yourself on Instagram first, and then
you know, work the film into that, because that's going
to be the sustainable way to do it. And I
think a lot of people want to jump in right
away and be like, well, we got to We've got
to create a Twitter handle for this film, and it's

(01:05:54):
got to be you know, thirteen Chambers movie, you know,
for Twitter. But what that means then is that you
also have to like provide relevant content on that channel
for the audience, because if you encourage somebody to follow
your thirteen Chambers Twitter handle or Instagram account or whatever,
then that audience is going to expect something beyond just

(01:06:16):
hey everyone, here's our trailer, here's our poster, here's our
you know, here's where we're playing next on the festival circuit.
Hey guess what we're available for vod Because those are
all things that you can say on any channel, doesn't matter.
You can do promoted posts and you know, ads on
any channel. It doesn't have to be a specific film channel.
So you know, I think eventually it gets to a
point where you no longer have anything relevant to share

(01:06:40):
about that film that's not redundant and not like just
like purely promotional, and then people will like, you'll lose
that part of your audience. Right. Whereas if you set
it up that you are the hub and not the
film as the hub, but you as the filmmaker or
the hub, and you each of your projects are spokes
and those spokes look like hashtags and actual accounts, then

(01:07:02):
I think what you start doing is you start developing
a sustainable framework for you know, sort of this you know,
sort of new UH you know, digital first and and
you know, sort of like new landscape that we're that
it's very fragmented, it's very fractured, and it's it's it's

(01:07:24):
ever changing, so you know, and this is all part
of like UH a presentation I gave at the Portland
Film Festival in UH September this past this couple of
months ago, and that we're also giving at the Wild
and Scenic Film Festival in January, and it's it's called
basically bridging the Indie Gap, and the idea is it's

(01:07:44):
a practical guide for UH you know, independent filmmakers and artists.
You don't necessarily have to be a filmmaker. That could
apply for a musician or a you know, a visual
artist or whatever whatever that person's doing really practical steps
kind of like what I'm talking about here, So it's
not like a you know, it's not like a loss
leader or content marketing thing. You know, it's going to

(01:08:06):
be you know, it's going to end up eventually as
an ebook that you know, I'll sell you know through
you know, smart House will sell for like three ninety
nine or something and you know, three dollars in ninety
nine cents, by the way, and it's something that like
if you know, you're a filmmaker in Nebraska who has
no connections and you're just like, what do I do now?
You know, maybe you can't afford to hire somebody like

(01:08:27):
smart House, but you could buy this ebook for three
ninety nine that will have like all these templates and
all these things that if you take the time to
implement them, like, it'll at least put you in the
ballpark for being successful with what you're trying to do,
and you know, lay the groundwork for that that sort
of eventual success because there is no overnight sort of

(01:08:49):
like social media success for like ninety nine percent of
the people. So so never think of yourself as the outlier.
You should always think of yourself as like the average case,
and like that will I think, you know, help you
succeed and prepare you for the realities of what that
might look like, you know, much better than if you
think that you're going to be the person who finances

(01:09:12):
their independent film on their credit card and then sells
it at sundance to Harvey Weinstein.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
You know, just to sort of put a period at
the end of that too. You know, some people I
know have actually bought followers on social media. So what
they'll do is, you know, they'll set it up on
like a Sunday, and all of a sudden, you know,
the next week they've got ten thousand followers.

Speaker 5 (01:09:30):
And at first I was like, how did you do this?

Speaker 4 (01:09:32):
And they said, oh, you know, we did a little
bit of this and that. And then finally, finally, you know,
I asked them and they admitted, okay, we paid for
somebody on fiver to you know follow us with a
you know, a thousand or ten thousand bought accounts that
are just you know they're not real, there's nothing behind them.
They're just they're a photo, a generated username, and the

(01:09:53):
photo was found by a program which just finds photos
plops it in there, and none of this is a
real engagement.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):

Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
So now you know, whatever they do, whatever they send out,
nobody even sees it. It's just it's literally like putting
it up there for a bunch of automated bots to see.

Speaker 5 (01:10:19):
Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that's a great example
of quality versus quantity. And I'm always amazed by like
when I see like, you know, accounts with like lots
and lots of followers. You know, like if you ever
look at this, isn't every account with a lot of followers,
but you know, just like do like a little you know,

(01:10:39):
anecdotal kind of survey. You know, you see somebody who's
got like ten thousand followers or this or that, like
and then you like you look at their tweets and
like there's no interaction or engagement at all on any
of their tweets, Like nobody's even liking something, much less responding,
replying or retweeting or whatever, right, And you know, I
think it's foolish, like we alway tell our clients like

(01:11:01):
when you're looking at social media metrics and that's you know,
something else that I think is really important is it's
not just about you know, good content or you know,
community engagement in the sense of like community management, like
where you're like, hey, I'm just like a fun person
and I'm you know, I'm good on social media. Like

(01:11:22):
you really have to see like what are the metrics
and what are the goals that you're trying to achieve
through this engagement and through this content, and you know
what kind of tactics that you're trying. And you know,
you never want to look at gross numbers without somehow
filtering them. And I feel like you always want to

(01:11:42):
look at rates and you always want to look at
per capita kind of interactions. And you'll find that like
organizations or brands or people that have huge followers almost
always have like really really poultry rates of engagement because
there just isn't you know, people follow like I don't

(01:12:03):
know why I would follow, Like I don't mean to
pick on Pepsi, but like why I would follow Pepsi?
Or Walmart or like why I would follow like a
major brand. I don't. I don't know what the incentive
is really, you know, even if there's like a chance
for quote unquote good deals or you know whatever. Right,
It's like, so these brands have these huge like and
I guarantee you like I know as a fact, like

(01:12:24):
most huge brands on Facebook, and like they're constantly promoting
every single post, like paying to boost the posts and
paying for ads. Like like you know, organic engagement on
Facebook especially is really really low and it's hard to
come by, and you know, you got to have a
really focused audience to do it and to make it work.

(01:12:48):
So yeah, so I think you know, anybody who looks
at kind of like you know, the I've got a
great you know, I guess like your example is perfect, like,
but I feel like there's you know a number of
examples like that where you know, people get hung up
on the number, the volume, and they forget about sort

(01:13:12):
of the the whole reason, like the goal that they
should be aiming at, and that's to get people actually
care about whatever it is that they're working on or
doing and not saying like you know, it's like the
person who has one hundred followers, but fifty of them
are engaged, compared to a person who has ten thousand
followers and twenty five of them are engaged. You know,

(01:13:34):
most people would say, oh, well, this person with ten
thousand followers, they're obviously doing something right. I have to like,
you know, listen to their wise counsel or listen to
you know, give them my money or do whatever. Right,
I have to follow them right. Whereas the person with
one hundred followers with fifty engaged, you know, that's the
one that's going to slip through the cracks. But that's
where the real engagement is happening, and that's you know,

(01:13:55):
maybe one of those followers is a you know, maybe
ten of those followers are studio executatives, and you know,
whatever that person tweets becomes, you know, ends up in
the Hollywood Reporter next week, or you know. Like so
there's all sorts of different influence, you know, levels and
types of influence on online. So yeah, I think what
you described as a great example of, like, you know,

(01:14:17):
be cautious and be skeptical about you know, social media.

Speaker 4 (01:14:25):
And I remember when I when I a couple of
years ago, when I was getting into crowdfunding. A person
I was talking to actually said, you know, there was
a case called the Soldier Boy case, which was Soldier
Boy is a rapper and he had like three four
million followers so on Twitter and when his you know,
new CD was coming out, They're like, well, this thing's

(01:14:45):
going to obviously be number one because you know, he's
tweeting about it constantly. It came out the album and
it didn't do anywhere near what they thought. And they said,
wait a minute, how does this guy with four million followers,
how does he not have you know, the number one album?

(01:15:05):
And they thought was a piracy? Well not really, they looked,
you know, they they didn't think it was that they did.
They ended up deciding that it was they're more interested
in hearing about like his thoughts about rat beefs and
other lyrics and this and that than they are about
his new album.

Speaker 5 (01:15:23):
Yeah, right, And so all of that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:25):
Was you know, sort of for naught. Uh And you know,
and there are you know, people that are obsessed with
his vanity analytics. There's vanity metrics.

Speaker 5 (01:15:31):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:32):
Oh, I've got you know, twenty thousand Twitter followers. You know,
I actually did a crowdfunding webinar. I used to do
it more regularly, but we haven't done it in a while.
We actually did a crowdfunding webinar.

Speaker 5 (01:15:44):
It was furry.

Speaker 4 (01:15:45):
It was on a Google hangout and somebody actually said, hey,
you know, we have the star that we've signed. She's
an actress and you know, she's got a huge social
media social media following. But she but but we don't
get a lot of conversions. And we and we looked
at her photos and basically it's a lot of you know,
modeling Laingerie's type stuff that you know, guys follow her

(01:16:06):
to see that so they can hit like or to
you know, retweet or tell her how hot she is.
They're not there to sort of you know, invest in
any of her projects or buy any of her other stuff.
They just want to you know, be there clicking on
that stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:16:19):
Sure, yeah, yep. Yeah. And I think that's you know,
sort of again like sort of that like you know,
the the fallacy of you know, social media, like the
silver bullet of social media. It's it's not going to
solve all your problems. Like I think you got to
use it effectively, and I think there are great ways
to use it effectively and I think, I actually think
Facebook ads are like a really effective way, especially if

(01:16:42):
you know, like you are able to target them and
you can get your you know your uh you know,
like your click rates, like as far as like how
much you're paying for clicks you know down like and
always like driving you know people like so it's not
like you're paying for impressions, but you're actually like driving
to an actual goal and putting a pixel on the sites,
you know, when you're converting like all these things which

(01:17:04):
like are like actually like take like some thought process
and you know that's where the real value can be
had and the real value can be added. But so
many people aren't willing really to take or even to
like think about the need for that or like why
you have to connect all those dots for like a
proper social media strategy or an overall digital strategy, like

(01:17:27):
how all those pieces fit together. So it's not rocket science,
but I feel like it definitely requires somebody on your team.
It doesn't have to be a paid consultant, but it
had like somebody should like really think about it. Usually
producer in most cases, but you know that doesn't usually happen,

(01:17:47):
so then it you know when a film gets its
first festival acceptance, or you know, they're going to try
a DIY release, or they've got a distributor that's like
going to quote unquote distribute them, but they're not going
to put any money or effort toward you know, marketing
or promoting that. And it's you know, it's really up
to the filmmakers, So you know, what are you going

(01:18:08):
to do? Then? Like you like, these are all questions
that will eventually come to like you know, bear like,
they will eventually like have an impact on you, So
you might as well think about them and figure them
out in the beginning and then realize, well, we don't
need this, we need this, We got to put more
money in toward this. We don't have enough for this.
Put it in your budget instead of like being at

(01:18:30):
the end when you toss the finish line because you've
completed your film, when you realize that it's just like
the first lap that you're like all of a sudden, like, oh,
we have three more laps that we have to run
with this film, and we have no money left and
everybody had burned out and we've called in all our favors.
Then who's going to see your movie. And that's just
the reality because there's so much content being produced and

(01:18:53):
the means of production are so like the bar is
solow for people to get something made, and you know,
it's just a lot of bad stuff out there. And
you know, if you've got a good movie, people should
be able to see it. And that's you know, it's
not you know, on an audience because you can't expect
them to search everything out. Like if you just put
your movie on VHX or on vimeo on man and

(01:19:15):
be like all right there, it is like I've leveled
the playing field. Well that's like the first step. Like
you've got to show people, like you've got to lead
people to that content, and you've got to encourage them.
You've got to convert them, and you've got to turn
them into fans, and you've got to you know, bring
them along for your next project and you know, show
them some value and give you know, provide you know,

(01:19:35):
a you know, community value and you know all that stuff.
So it's you know, if you think about it too much,
it can seem overwhelming. But you know that's kind of
like what these conversations are about is to you know,
hopefully try to like break it down. So somebody's like, Okay,
if I approach it from you know, this logical, step
by step kind of thing, it's like, it's not as

(01:19:56):
overwhelming or as crazy as it sounds.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):

Speaker 5 (01:20:10):
It actually can be done by somebody who's just getting
you know. But maybe that's not the filmmaker, but maybe
it's you know, as a student intern, or maybe it's
your you know, uncles, you know, your cousin or whatever.
It's like, who's you know, twenty three years old and
knows everything about Snapchat and that's where you're going to
find your biggest audience. So anyway, you know, we could

(01:20:30):
probably go on and on.

Speaker 4 (01:20:33):
You know, we could go on and on, because you know,
I was just going to say, you know, one of
the things that I realized from crowdfunding my last film
was I would definitely and for the next time I
plan a crowdfund, I have a team in mind. And
one of the things is, you know, obviously I'll sort
of be like, you know, the dictator, but but you know,

(01:20:53):
you've got to have, you know, a person who's in
charge of the crowdfunding campaign. You also have to have
a person who's in charge of the social media and
then from that person, I would put like one person's
in charge of Twitter, I have a person charge of Facebook,
have a person in charge of Instagram. And if you can't,
let's just say you can't build that dream team. You
can't pay everybody. You know, that's excellent advice. You had

(01:21:13):
just find somebody you know who maybe will work for free,
or who's a relative, a friend, you know, somebody had
bumped it on the street and maybe they can help
you out in some way you may and maybe you
can offer them something on you know, however, you want
to compensate them, you know, I mean, you know it's
it's it takes a village to raise a child, right Brad, Oh.

Speaker 5 (01:21:33):
Yeah, that's for sure. Yep, Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
All all that stuff you just said, and it's like, yeah,
it's never going to be your perfect team. It's never
you know, your you know, your plan's never going to
be perfect. And once you implement it and you start
executing it, half of it's going to go out the
window because something changes, or somebody gets sick or what
you know, just kind of just be like prepared and

(01:21:55):
just move on and you know, just make it work somehow,
and if it doesn't work, then you know, set that
project aside and focus on the next one. Like like
I have a very like sort of like, you know,
just I'm not too precious about any one project or
anyone sort of thing, because I know that so many

(01:22:18):
things influence the success or failure of those projects that
you know, you just have to focus on the things
that you can control, hope for some good luck on
the things that you can't, and then just really, you know,
without sounding too pollyannish about it, but like just try
to stay positive about it through the whole through the
whole process, and you know, and you'll find like even

(01:22:40):
if the project doesn't succeed or like something gets goes
wrong midway or whatever, like, you may find that some
of your collaborators that you brought on board end up
being you know, key team members in the next project
or you help. You know, it's like you just never know.
And I think that's kind of like one of the
really cool things about a lot of this randomness that

(01:23:03):
we kind of discussed is that you just never know.
So you should always be open to those possibilities.

Speaker 4 (01:23:10):
Some of those struggles could maybe lead to a better
opportunity or lead to a better discovery. There was a
book I was actually just reading. I have to finish
reading it called The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holliday,
and that was very interesting. Yeah, and that's what it's
all about. The the New England Patriots actually distributed that
to all their players this year and to teach them

(01:23:31):
all about you know, adversity and everything else. And you
know that they do pretty well in football.

Speaker 5 (01:23:36):
Yeah right, you know, Brad.

Speaker 4 (01:23:38):
Sometimes you know, I hopefully we can sit down again.
I can have you back on the show if it
be able to come back.

Speaker 5 (01:23:45):
Oh for sure. I'm actually I feel like I'm losing
my voice right now, so like to find me. I'd
love to come back. That'd be great.

Speaker 4 (01:23:50):
Oh excellent. So Brad, where do you find your online.

Speaker 5 (01:23:54):
So you can find you know, smart house is at
smart Housecreative dot com all one word because it's you know,
spelled normally. I'm on Twitter at JB W I l
K e H. Smart Houses on Twitter and Instagram at
teams smart house, and I'm also on Instagram at JB

(01:24:15):
Will keep that's another you know, just one more little
piece of advice is if you can can can standardize
all of your handles so that like people don't have
to like remember three different handles across your Twitter, Instagram,
you know, whatever else you might have, like try to
like if you can make them the same thing, so
it's not like it takes a lot of the guest
work out of the whole process of somebody is trying

(01:24:36):
to tag you at a conference or at a Q
and A or whatever. So you know, and then you know,
smart House is on Facebook and you know you can
you can find us. We have a blog to where
we do a lot of you know, guest posts from
people like filmmakers talk about their experiences and you know,
so anyway, that's you know, we're out there. Like I'm

(01:24:57):
usually not like I'm a good promoter, but sometimes like
I'm just like, you know, if you're interested, like you'll
be able to find us just team smart House, smart
House Creative JB. Wilkie. But yeah, I encourage like and
it would actually welcome anybody to tweet questions at me
on you know, on Twitter or to you know email. Brad,

(01:25:17):
Oh yeah, I mean that's you know another great way,
Brad b r a d at smart House Creative dot
com is my email address. So you know, if anybody
who's listening, as you know, questions that I might be
able to answer, like in an email or by you know,
sharing a link to something, you know, please get in touch.
You know, like I feel like I'm always like trying
to you know, broaden that community, and you know, and

(01:25:39):
and do you know, help out if I can, and
you know those like really minor kind of ways, but
you know, so yeah, tweet me your questions, email your questions,
and you know, I'll really do my best to get
you some some actual, like practical answers.

Speaker 4 (01:25:52):
So, Brad, I want to say thank you very much
for coming on. This has been a fantastic episode for
all those people who were you know, confused about social
media and all that other you know, the digital the
digital media. I hopefully you know, they listen to this,
and I hope they gained a lot, you know, from this,
you know, or listen to it again everybody, if you're
still you know, if you're still not quite sure, because

(01:26:15):
Brad set a lot of key points in this interview
that I can't I can't stress enough of how to
build that digital market.

Speaker 5 (01:26:22):
Well, you know, glad glad to and I'm you know,
I really, like I said, like trying to be as
practical and as like, you know, straightforward and clear as possible.
So because I feel like there's a lot of like
you know, anyway, we'll say that for the next episode.

Speaker 4 (01:26:36):
I have a great night, buddy, and I wish you
the best. All right, thanks a lot, Deve anytime, buddy,
take care right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:44):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at any filmuscle dot
com forwards Lash eight twenty nine, and if you have
it already, please head over to filmmaking podcast dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:26:59):
Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
so much for listening to guys. As always, keep that
hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there,
and I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:27:12):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at
indiefilm hustle dot com. That's I N D I E
F I L M h U S t l E
dot com,

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