IFH 832: The Filmmaker Who Refused to Tap Out: The Making of Heel Kick! with Danny Mac

Danny Mac, a self-taught filmmaker from Edmonton, turned his dream into a career through persistence, creativity, and sheer determination. After producing his first feature, Love/Hate, on weekends while working a day job, he managed to sell it to a Canadian broadcaster—an extraordinary feat for a debut filmmaker. The experience became his hands-on film school, teaching him the importance of preparation, delegation, and resilience.

With Heel Kick!, Danny took those lessons to the next level, writing, directing, and starring in a mockumentary about two backyard wrestlers chasing their dreams. To make the film authentic, he and his co-star trained as real wrestlers for six months. By combining a transparent crowdfunding campaign with grassroots promotion and YouTube influencer support from Greg Miller, Danny brought his vision to life. His story stands as a testament to the power of hustle, honesty, and heart in independent filmmaking.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/indie-film-hustle-a-filmmaking-podcast--2664729/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
thirty two. Cinema Should make You forget You're sitting in
a theater, Roman Polanski.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we showed you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
I am your humble.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of
the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into
a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for
independent filmmakers to make money with their films from predatory
film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators who
prey upon them. The odds are stacked against the indie filmmaker.

(00:59):
The old distribution model of making money with your film
is broken, and there needs to be a change the
future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker or the
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and show you how to turn your indie film into
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(01:23):
This book shows you the step by step method to
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The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook.
If you want to order it, just head over to www.

(01:44):
Dot filmbiz book dot com. That's film bizbook dot com.
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
I have a Canadian filmmaker, actor and producer. He produced
a film and actually started in as well and directed it.
That it's very close to what I talk about a
lot on here, and you know it's it's pro wrestling
in one way or another. I know I don't talk
a lot about pro wrestlings. I don't haven't watched it
in years, but when I was growing up I watched
it a ton, probably way too much, so we just

(02:15):
had Nick Bondo on, who was a professional wrestler turned filmmaker.
We've had a few other filmmaking projects here and there
that involved pro wrestling, but this one is a unique
one onto itself because it it really involves backyard wrestling.
And I love the tagline for the film too, it's
unprofessional wrestling, which is which is a genius tagline. So

(02:36):
we're gonna talk all about this new film, Heel Kick,
which is actually going through a little tour right now
and then it'll be out later this year. We're also
gonna talk about how my next guest actually made money
with this first film, believe it or not, which is
just crazy to think of, right making money with your
first film. We're gonna talk about all that stuff, film school, networking,
finding contacts, and we go with a lot of really

(02:58):
cool producing stuff in this too, and we talked about
for wrestling with guest Danny Mack.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
I did not go to film school, and it is
something that I knew I wanted to do when I
was growing up, but it just seemed too insurmountable and
too difficult. You're talking to me now from Edmonton, Alberta,
where I grew up. I'm just back here for my
grandma's one hundredth birthday and then i'll be back to
Vancouver tonight. But growing up here where there's essentially no

(03:27):
film scene, and it does have a fairly decent theater community,
but really film and television, there's not nothing, and there's
no one who's doing it. So I, you know, I
didn't have any inspirations surrounding me, and the prices for
film school were really high, and it's something that my
mom and I were looking at when I was fifteen
or sixteen because clearly I had an interest in it

(03:49):
and I needed some sort of creative outlet because I was,
you know, kind of just being a little brat of
a kid. But it seemed too expensive, and yeah, like
I said, there was just nothing around me to indicate
that it was something that that I could pull off.
So so I kind of like let it. I wouldn't
want to say let the dream die. But you know,

(04:09):
I went to university and I still hadn't picked a
major or a minor after like two or three years,
and I was taking a lot of studies, you know,
acting because I liked it. So I was training here
and there, but I finally realized, you know, I could
probably just make a movie myself, and so began the
journey of me producing my own projects.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
So when you actually wanted to make your own movie, like,
what were some of the first things that you did
to sort of take those steps to actually make that movie.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
Well, we myself and my one of the co stars
in Heel Kick and and my fellow producer, Cooper b Bo,
we would look at scripts to get an idea of
how to format them and how they were written. And
then we, you know, just started to have writing sessions
together and anyone who would want to work on something creative,

(05:02):
we would. So we were writing sketches for the Fringe
Film Play Theater festival that we have here in Edmonton,
and anyone who wanted to do something, you know and
throw it up on you too, we were contributing. But
he and I were really interested in writing feature films.
And then, because you know, we're actors and we're writers,

(05:25):
but we don't really know anything about the technical aspect
of filmmaking, we would seek out people who were in
film school and ask them if they would want to
come help us shoot something. And since we were something
the only people making an independent feature film in the city.
We got a lot of attention right away, and before
we knew it, we had a film crew on board

(05:46):
and they were helping us shoot our first feature film.
And this was back in twenty eleven, so.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
When you were actually you got all that attention. Have
you know, has things changed then? So, like, I mean,
you know what I mean, like everybody you know who
has a knife now as a filmmaker. So have you
noticed have things actually changed where it's become passe or
maybe it's become the point where it's like in La
where it's a pain in the ass. I mean, have
you noticed any difference.

Speaker 4 (06:11):
Just in regards to like the amount of people who
are making film?

Speaker 3 (06:14):
You mean, yeah, exactly, and you're in your area.

Speaker 4 (06:17):
Well, I mean yes and no. Because Vancouver is a
pretty big film city. A lot of stuff is filmed there.
It's a big service city, so a lot of big
productions come through there, and then you know, Vancouver actors
will help round out and fill out some of the
roles that are needed in the crew gets a lot
of work down there there as well. But yeah, it's

(06:39):
funny how you say everyone with an iPhone can be
a filmmaker. And that's true, and I think it's so
much easier for people to make films these days, but
the amount of drive and determination that it takes to
pull something like that off that doesn't change. It's still
backbreaking and it's still a serious commitment of if not money,
seriously time. So while it's easier than ever, I don't

(07:00):
think more people than ever are actually doing it because
you know what I mean, it's tough to take that
plunge and you know, first of all, it's tough to
sit down and write a film. It's tough to assemble
a crew and a cast, and it's tough to shoot
the thing and then edit it and then sell it. So,
you know, as much as we have the resources available
to us, I actually don't see people taking advantage of

(07:21):
it that much because I think people do understand how
much work it is and that's kind of a scary,
like it's a turnoff for people.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, it's true. And you know when I say everyone
who thinks who has an iPhone is you know, considers
themselves a filmmaker, it's just because you know, it's kind
of like that idea, you know, I mean, I've done
commercial work too, where commercial videography work, and you know,
the guy's like, hey, my son, their daughter's got an iPhone,
why should I hire you? Or you know, people who
want to start throwing vlog on YouTube, or but yeah,

(07:50):
I know it's exactly what you're saying. You know, it
does still take all that time and planning an effort,
which is why most movies don't get made. Right there,
You know, nobody used normal who actually makes a film?
Normal is sitting on your calus talking about making a movie,
right Danny.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
Yeah, everyone on earth has done that. I got a
great idea for a movie or a book or a
TV show or whatever. Everyone has said that at one
point in their life. It only takes the truly insane
people to, you know, think that's something that should actually
try to do for a living.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
You know, it was funny one time, I actually came
home from a shoot one day and I was so tired.
I just wanted to shower. Another shower I already taken
on that day, but you know, it was a long
ass day, and I sort of plopped down the couch
and a friend of mine, you know, came over and
he was like, oh, you know, what were you doing
today and Bob blind and he goes, oh, man, I
got this idea for a movie, and I'm like, I

(08:40):
don't want to ever talk about movies again. I said,
I am so tired right now, like I'm just aching
all over. I was sunburned. I was like, I don't care.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
I don't want to. Yeah, And that eventually happens, like
people say, you know, what would be a great idea,
and you're like, you know what, I mean, bringing my
own idea to life. It's stressing me out. So please
keep gray to yourself at this point because I can't
help you. I'm losing my mind working on my own projects.
It's sad. It's sad to say, but yeah, I definitely

(09:12):
hear you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
It's it's that whole idea of like a friend's it's
always like, hey, you know, we're a friend from high school.
Do you get that? By the way, I don't. I
don't have to talk about that a lot. But I
have friends from high school who constantly send me messages
about some script or or or an idea that they are.
One wanted to shoot a zombie film in the woods
and he wanted my advice, and I'm like, you've never
talked to me ever unless you need something. So I'm like,

(09:35):
why the hell would I help you?

Speaker 4 (09:37):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
It's just it's just so it's so like phony, you know.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
What I mean. I get a lot of that. But
some people reach out and I don't think it's that
they necessarily like want something from me. But at the
same time they are like, I got a great idea
for a thing. All you would have to do is
write it and produce it and shoot shoot it and
get the money together, Like.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
I'm like, are you insane? Like there's absolutely And you know,
I don't have a shortage of ideas myself, you know,
I'm trying to figure out what i want to do
next and what I'm going to put out there. So
someone with zero experience comany is saying like, I got
a great idea and you haven't talked to them in
a long time. Yeah, it can be frustrating. God bless
them though, God bless them.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
Yeah, it's it's that whole idea of Look, you know
what's so complicated about this. You have all the connections
and i'd sit there. I go, Guys, it just doesn't
work like that. And I get a lot of See,
I'm glad that you understand what I'm talking about, you know,
And you get that a lot because I've had girls
too that I went to high school with who want
to be quote unquote actresses, and they don't really want
to be actresses, you know, they want to show up

(10:50):
to set or wherever and take pictures of themselves so
people can tell them how beautiful they are.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Yeah, there's really and you know, there's nothing glamorous about
like the job of an actor. Really, if you are
an actor, there's there's so many moments where you're like,
what the hell, this is not what I thought it
would be. But you have to love it, and I do.
But yeah, when I really explained to people, like what
my day is like when I'm on set, either for

(11:16):
a commercial or a TV show or something, it's yeah,
it's really a kick in the pants, I think.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
So, you know, when we started in twenty eleven, when
you started making your own film, your first film, you know,
and you put everything together, you know, did you have
any of this culture shock that we're talking about right
now where you were like, oh my god, what the
hell did I get myself into?

Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah? Absolutely, and pardon me, I got the date wrong.
It was back in two thousand and nine. We started
writing it, and we shot it in two thousand and ten,
and yeah, holy crap. I could not believe how long
the days were, how long it took to get shot
set up, you know, I just you don't understand. And
especially I'd never been to film school, so that was
my film school. And I would have quit because it

(12:01):
was just so intense and there was so much work.
But Cooper and I put our life savings into the movie,
and we completely funded at ourselves, so we kept working
our regular jobs Monday to Friday, and then because we
couldn't afford to pay anyone, we could only shoot the
movie Friday night, all of Saturday, all of Sunday, and
then we'd go back to work. We'd only shoot weekends.

(12:22):
And like, I was so drained. I could not believe
how tired I was, And I was almost so exhausted
that quitting would have required more thought and effort than
just staying the course. So we ended up finishing it.
But yeah, just when I say that, like that first
film was my film school. I really believe that because

(12:43):
trial by fire is the only way that I've really
stuck to things and learned in my life. I've found
and yeah, it really prepares you for what the career
is going to be. Like, of course, you improve the
next time around. We made a ton of mistakes, but
you know, learning from them and going forward, there's no
better way to do it. I think.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
So, what was the biggest obstacle you faced when making
that movie? Like, was there one day or one thing
that happened where we were like, I think I'm done?

Speaker 4 (13:13):
Hmmm? I mean that I feel like every every day honestly,
like somehow and this is crazy. And really the money
was our like least, like we were always worried about
the money because literally it was just his and my
life savings. We both put twenty thousand dollars up to
make this forty thousand dollar feature. But there was sort

(13:34):
of nothing to worry about because we had the money,
Like we didn't have to go knock on any doors
for more. So, oddly enough, the money wasn't the bigges problem.
But the biggest problem was was that we were producing
a film and we'd never done that before. We never
made a short well we had made a short film before,
but like that took that took an afternoon, and like
this was just so intense. So yeah, we we were

(13:55):
just we were faced with obstacles every day, Like we
didn't like transportation and getting everything to our certain locations
was rough, and who was going to return all the year,
and like there was just things we didn't know that
were actual things that you had to do on set,
and so we had we didn't delegate properly, so it
just see, like day one, there's like ninety things that

(14:15):
are undone that we need to just assign to people
to start doing. And because we were the producers and
we couldn't pay anyone, we had to do all those
things ourselves. So while money wasn't an issue, if you're
not paying anyone, you're not going to get any extra
out of anyone. You know, they were just doing it
for the experience. So we took on way too much
and that was probably why, you know, I can't even

(14:37):
pick a specific thing, but really the the umbrella of
all the problems is that we just wore way too
many hats and we juggled too many things.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
And you see, Danny, I think that happens to a
lot of filmmakers, you see, because everything is a little
more accessible quote unquote, you know, whether there would be
a camera or maybe it be you know, a way
to storyboard, or whether it be hey, listen, I have
an idea, you know what I mean. You kind of
build up this confidence to go in there and do it.
But I think when you wear so many hats, you

(15:08):
kind of it all hits you when you're trying to
do two things at once. And I can tell you
I remember I was I was doing one of my films,
one of my student films, and I remember somebody had
backed out who was supposed to be like my location
manager slash like upm and everybody instead was calling me
now as I'm trying to direct the scene for like directions,

(15:29):
questions about stuff. Hey, you know what I mean. And
I'm just like, guys, I'm trying to direct a freaking
scene here and I'm trying to talk to the cinematographer
and I'm trying to do this and people are coming
up and ask me questions. People are coming up because
they the people who had the location. There was like
other stuff going on, so people were walking in the
room going, oh, is there are you guys filming here?

(15:50):
We're like, oh, Jesus Christ, shoot me. Now what did
I do to myself?

Speaker 4 (15:55):
I got a funny story or a very first day
on set. We actually didn't have the permits to shoot
in the park we were shooting in and I didn't
know this. So someone like a park ranger came up
to our director and was like, hey, do you have
permits to shoot here? And he was just petrified and
the only thing he could think to say was the
name of the person he was supposed to email to

(16:16):
get the permits that he never actually did. And let's
say that person's name was Alex. So this park ranger
comes up to our director our first day on set,
He's like, hey, did you get the proper permits to
be here? And all he says was Alex. And then
the park ranger somehow accepted that and was like, okay,
well have a good shoot and left us. But we
could have been like shut down before we begun, So

(16:40):
God bless him for that one. I have no idea
how we weaseled our way out of that situation, but.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
It's like one of those movie jokes, you know, where
the character kind of just like blurts out of me
an answer by accident. They like their own jeopardy, and
it's like, yeah, that's exactly it. That's the answer.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
It's yeah. Meanwhile, Oh, he's just like breathing heavily and
sweating his ass off because we almost lost everything, and.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
You know, and see stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
You know.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
I have a funny story happened. Didn't happen on one
of my sets, but it was. I actually was was
visiting the set one day and this this kind of
like park ranger type of guy walks by and he
looks over and he just sees all these film cameras
and gear and everything else. And immediately I'm like, well,
this this guy. I know, these guys who are running

(17:29):
this film set, who's film it is. I know they
don't have permits. And and I look at the park
ranger and he's on a bike and he just kind
of looks around and just pedaled off and never said
a word. And I think, I'm thinking to myself, what
made him not do this? Like what made him not
want to get involved? And here's here's there's two things
that I think of that didn't that made him not

(17:50):
want to get involved as I kind of took a
look around. Number one was there was probably like three
hundred people there and just because it was a concert scene.

Speaker 4 (17:59):
And two there was a guy in an.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Eight foot like monster costume just kind of rampaging around,
and I think both of them, he's probably I don't
even want to get involved in whatever the hell this is.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah, he could probably smell like the dreams that he
would have crushed. Also if he just followed up on it.
I think that was a big part of it too.
This park ranger was like, you what, these kids look
like they've got enough trouble already as it is, So
I'm just gonna bike away from this situation.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
And we're right in Philadelphia too. We usually crushed dreams
here in Philadelphia, So you know that guy.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
Was the that is the city motto, isn't it where
dreams go to be crushed?

Speaker 3 (18:37):
I believe, Oh yeah, that that hitchpot thing. It survived
Canada and everything else, and then as soon as it came.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
Here was done. That's it. So dandy?

Speaker 3 (18:48):
Would you if you get done making Love Hate, which
was your first film, how did you go about releasing
the film or even just marketing the film?

Speaker 4 (18:56):
That was another sort of I mean, we didn't do
too much marketing, but we really got lucky on that
one because we were able to sell the film to
a Canadian the on demand subscription or not subscription base,
but transactional video on demand channel called Superchannel. And the
only thing that we had heard about it was that
a guy that we knew apparently hit a short film

(19:21):
and he sold it to them and they gave him
like fourteen thousand dollars. And we never confirmed this, We
never looked into it. We didn't even talk to the guy.
We're like, oh, if he can do that, we can
do it. So we proceeded to make this film and
then their head offices happened to be in Edmonton where
we shot Love Hate, and we literally just drove there
one day. We google maps where their offices were. Cooper

(19:42):
and myself just drove there in my old Honda Accord
with a blu ray of our film. We were like, Hey,
who can we talk to about buying our movie? They
were like, I guess the acquisition's head is here. So
we met with her and she passed the film off
to her team.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
And we got a call like a few weeks later
saying that they would they would buy the movie off
of us, and we ended up breaking even on our
first project just from that and a couple of theatrical
screenings that we held ourselves.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
I mean, that is a hell Mary story, man, you know,
you just you threw it up there. But see, but
stories like that or a success, you know, that's what
people aim for, you know. It's to do stuff like that, Hey,
we sold our first movie, you know, or or we
you know, we did this, or we did that.

Speaker 4 (20:37):
You know.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
It's it's funny. A guy I know actually used to
work with Orn Patelli, who did Paranormal Activity, and one day,
I don't know if you've ever seen the first or
Paranormal Activity, but one day Oran came in and he said, guys,
I just want to say it's been nice working with you.
I I actually just want two weeks in And I said, oh, well,
you know what, do you have another job? And he said, well,
actually I just sold a movie to Steven Spielberg. And

(21:01):
they were like, yeah, right, Like come on, what are
you really doing? He goes no, he goes no, like
I'm going to be on all these web series or
not web series, like like web interviews and stuff like that.
And he goes, and I want to be on like
this channel just you know, and that's it. Well, like
little by little they started, like all these interviews started
popping up, and they were like, oh my god, this

(21:22):
is amazing. But I mean it's stuff like that, you know,
stories like that that that you know, it sort of
keeps that indie film, indie film dream alive.

Speaker 4 (21:29):
You know.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
We were able to actually, you know, do these things,
actually say hey, look we made our money back, or
we made least some money, and now we can take
that money and make another film exactly.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
And yeah, when you say it was a hail Mary,
it absolutely was because we were you know, we had
we were just delusional. We thought that the movie was
going to explode and we'd make so much money that
our next film could be like triple the budget and
that it would be smooth sailing. And then you know,
we were able to sell it and so we got
national broadcast and we we made like a lot of
money on just three threeatrical screenings that we did, and

(22:02):
so we made our money back plus maybe like I
don't know, like three grand each and this was after
like three years of work, so like whoopie do right?
We were like upset. We were like, man, I can't
believe we only broke even, and other filmmakers like, we
didn't realize how tough it was to, you know, get
a broadcast deal and make your money back within like
six months of releasing your film, and all these other

(22:24):
filmmakers like, are you insane that you're complaining right now?
Like you sold your first film and you made all
your money back, Like what is your problem? And now
is I've just like been in the industry so much longer.
I was like, what a shitty little brat I was
being complaining that we didn't like bring in heaps of
cash from our little independent film and yeah, I'm just
you know, we did everything wrong, but it turned out

(22:46):
all right for us in the end. So I'm really
proud of our little effort that we put in back then.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
And I'm also glad that you got my football reference too,
cause I mean, I know you're you're in Canada, and
I'm like, wait a minute, and will he understand the
by the Yeah, I'm glad you got that right, because.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
Because nearly orange football here, there's nine downs before the
ball change his hands.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Well, I've actually been to Canada and I saw a
Toronto Argonauts game one time.

Speaker 4 (23:12):
Oh the rgoes yeah, that's right, so yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
So it was just funny though, because I was you know,
the NFL is not really popular outside of them, outside
of the USA, and I'm just like, man, I always
I always gott to watch my my slang. And even
when I'm talking to other filmmakers from America, I gotta
watch my Philly slang. They don't say something weird and
they're like, oh yeah, Dave, you know.

Speaker 4 (23:35):
No, I'm all over it. I got you.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Wait, we know. Just to go back to about Love Hate,
I mean again, you know, selling your first film, that's huge,
and I mean now, I mean because you sold that
in like twenty ten, twenty eleven. I mean, what do
you think about the marketplace now? You know, even tying
in with your new movie, he'll kick about. I mean,
what do you think the market's like? Now? Do you
think it's more crowded? Because I've had I've heard a

(23:59):
lot of different opinions and perspectives of this. Some people say, yeah,
it's more crowded, but but there's more avenues, and then
and then the other the other sort of option is
or the other perspective is the the good movies, no
matter what, are always just going to rise on the top.

Speaker 4 (24:15):
I mean, I hope that that's the case, because you know,
then that means that people will see good films and
that will reward and that we'll you know, teach people
to make good projects. I don't know, I think that
it's really exciting the time that we're in right now,
especially with all the methods of self distribution available. That
is really something that gets me excited about continuing down

(24:37):
this path as an independent filmmaker and beyond. And while
I do think there is a ton of just product
out there, like there's so many shows and films, I
do believe that the good ones rise to the top,
and I think that you have to hold on to
that because I don't know what's what's the alternative thought
on that that, you know, like a bad movie with

(24:59):
great marketing will be the only thing that really matters
one day. And you know, while that may be the case,
I'm sure we've all heard a million things about a movie.
We don't care about. In the independence scene, you have
so much more leeway, I believe, and people aren't as
tough on films, and you know, while you do have
to have a fixed skin and everyone who's going to
have critics, it's kind of a nice community. You know.

(25:21):
People are always willing to help each other and talk
about their project. And there's so many case studies. I
think that's the coolest thing about it. People say, yeah,
there's so many projects out there right now, it's such
a cluttered marketplace. But if you're trying to produce an
independent film, you can look at all of those things
and you can just case study them about what they
did right and what they did wrong. And I'm sure

(25:43):
everyone has, you know, I can't even tell you how
many Kickstarter film projects that I've seen that just never
got to production, that never saw the light of day,
and that's useful information. And then all the ones that
did make it, that's useful information. So, yes, the marketplace
is cluttered, but I think for indie filmmakers that's a

(26:03):
good thing because you can sit back and you can
plot your course more effectively than you ever could before.
And even just in twenty eleven when we sold that film.
We like, if that head of acquisitions wasn't based in
our hometown, we never would have been able to drive
there and use our just in person charm. If we
did have it, then we certainly don't have much of
it anymore. But I don't know if we could pull

(26:25):
something like that off again. But like, there were just
so many things that added up, and if one of
them fell through, we wouldn't have had any idea what
to do because we sold directly to the broadcaster. We
did not get a distribution deal, nor did we even
seek one out because we were able to go direct
to the broadcasters. So now if we were in the

(26:46):
same circumstance now, which I kind of am with this film,
at least you wouldn't be completely screwed if like the
one thing you know to get your film out there
doesn't work. So it's exciting. There is a lot of noise,
but you can learn from the noise, and that's good too.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
Yeah, And that's an excellent point, Danny. And you raise
another excellent point too, and that is a lot of
kickstarters that don't actually see production, and that happens. I mean,
the most notorious of that is the video game industry,
just because of all the things that happened in that industry.
But you know, I've seen film projects that that have

(27:20):
crowdfunded and gone nowhere. I mean some are some even
famously have been crowdfunded. And you know, there's some pretty
big people that have joined the crowdfunding spectrum. I won't
name names, but they they've taken some money and not
and not produced anything, you know, to me, I'm sorry, Danny.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
Oh, I just said, yikes. Yeah, that's that's a bad. Yeah.
You don't like to hear that.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, I mean it's just I always wonder I always
wanted to bring one of them on this show and
just be like, you know, what the hell happened? I
just be like, what did you really not have a plan?
Did you? Guys just like throw this up and somebody
donated like fifty grand, you know. I speaking of which,
I had a friend of mine who's to crowdfunding campaign
and in twenty twelve, he had a mysterious benefactor, dead serious,

(28:06):
give him ten thousand dollars out of nowhere, just out
of nowhere. And I mean he was like he couldn't
figure out who it was.

Speaker 4 (28:14):
Nobody would.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
Yeah, it was just it was out of nowhere, and
he actually was trying to figure out who the hell
that was, and it just he never figured it out.
And I was like, well, I guess you. You know,
you have to make your movie now. And he kind
of like he almost became paralyzed by trying to figure
out who this was.

Speaker 4 (28:33):
He was like, there's your movie.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
He was like more adamant about He's like he's like,
all right, I gotta figure out who has the resources
to give me ten thousand dollars and not miss it.
And I'm just like, make your movie. Who the hell
cares about it?

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Well, like, that's a sweet ass problem to have, my friends.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
No, that's I mean, how how would that even sound
if you said that?

Speaker 4 (28:55):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Man, I got this bad problem. Oh Danny, what's the problem.
Oh some rain dude gave me ten grand to make
a film.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Oh yeah, it's keeping me up at night. I just
can't figure out who's generous and loves me. It's just
driving me insane. So we did crowdfunding for Heel Kick,
I should probably add, and I didn't want to do it,
and crowdfunding is something that like I believe in and
I appreciate it, but it's just something that I personally

(29:23):
don't want to do, and I never wanted to do it.
The only reason I did a GoFundMe campaign was because
I was just screwed. But the advantage that I had
was that my film was already shot and I was
able to release a trailer for it. So my whole
GoFundMe approach was, Hey, my movie's done, so there's all
one hundred percent chance that if you donate to this

(29:47):
that it's not going to be lost in the abyss
of you know, indie filmmakers asking for money. And I
released a trailer and everyone could see that it was
complete and that it was on its way, and I
just said, hey, we need to pay like you guys
want to see it, right like, we need to pay
for you know, insuran.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (30:12):
We need to pay for these theatrical screenings because we're
just fore walling it. And if you guys give us
a little bit of money, the film can be out
right away, and if not, I just don't really know
what to do. So we were able. We did an
aggressive three week campaign and we raised twelve thousand dollars
and that finished off all the funds that we needed
and we were so proud of our community and our
fans for helping us with that, but that people sort

(30:35):
of were like, Wow, I can't believe you pulled that
off in just a few weeks. And I was, you know,
but like I said, I was a little confused at
first too. I didn't really think it would go that well.
But it's because we had the film in the can already,
and people are getting really weary of kickstarters and go
fundmes and projects like this because you know, like we

(30:56):
have just discussed, so many of them never see the
light of day. And it's like, ugh, why do I
have to be supportive of something that I know isn't
going to happen? And you know, so I think people
when they're pursuing these crowdfunding avenues, they just they really
need to have their shit together because it's going to
sour it for other filmmakers. You know. Imagine like knowing
that you could produce something if you raise twenty grand,

(31:18):
but people are just like, oh yeah, right, buddy, Like
just like the other three I donated to, that's ruining
it for everyone. So you know, it's a tool, but
it's too accessible. You know. It's just like a phone
with a camera, everyone can shoot a movie. That's why
you got a lot of crappy movies out there. And
it's like anyone can start a kickstart a campaign for
their film. That's why there's so many graveyards full of

(31:41):
dead films that never saw the light of day.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yeah, absolutely, Danny. And you know, I actually knew a
person who would go around from project to project actually
just doing crowdfunding campaigns, and like her timeline was just
nothing but pitching crowdfunding campaigns to people, and people are
like tuning her out, Like all you do is prom promote, promote,
and like half the time you never even hear about
the movie ever after she's done promoting it. So people

(32:06):
just started tuning her out left and right, and it's
just like it's that fine sort of ebbing and flowing.
It's it's kind of you know, like in marketing, you
can't just keep marketing to people because they start tuning out,
you know. And that's what she was doing. And that's
why I think you know a lot of times when
and a friend of mine who was on Twitter, and
he said he followed a bunch of filmmakers and he said,

(32:27):
literally half of my timeline is people crowdfunding projects. And
he goes, it's just to the point where it's like
almost unusable, and I said, you know, it's it's just
the the industry and how it is sometimes personally. You know,
there's different I mean, obviously there's there's a lot of
different ways of crowdfund personally, you know. I mean, I
was guilty that in twenty ten when I was crowdfunding

(32:48):
as well. And I know it does get kind of
I don't want to say the word murky, but I
might be, but you know what I mean, Like like
you were just saying, Danny, it does some people just
don't want to ask people for money, or you know,
because it looks like online panhandling or something like that,
you know what I mean. And I've had I've had
people conversations with with with producers or conversations with actors
and stuff, and I said, you know, you guys have

(33:10):
to put up the crowd fund a campaign too, or whatever.
And people are out out and out and out refuse
because of that. They would say, oh, this is just
online panhandling or whatever else, and I'm like, this is
how you get indie films made. You know, it's funded
by You'd rather be funded by a crowd than funded
by some producer who's going to tell you how to
set up every single shot and how to have and
have final edit. You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
Oh, it's so true. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah. I
don't know. I don't know if it'll get better or worse,
but you know, now has never been a more important
time to have it together as a filmmaker and have
a plan that you are able to execute and a
worst case scenario that involves your films still getting made
at the end of the day.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
So, you know, speaking of films getting mad at the
end of the day, you made Heelkick, which is about
two backyard wrestlers, and I mean, honestly, before we get
into it, could you actually just give us a you know,
brief synopsis about the film.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
Sure. Yeah, So, he'l Kick is about two backyard wrestlers
that decide to finally go pro after ten years of
procrastinating and saying that this is what they're destined to
do in their life. The only problem is that they
are terrible. They lack an all athletic skill required to
do such a thing, and they don't really have any
intelligence or the drive you would need to go after
such a grand dream. So it's a mockumentary. It's a comedy,

(34:24):
and it follows Reggie and Maurice to best friends. Is
they finally go to professional wrestling training at an academy
called ECCW, which is a real wrestling academy. And yeah,
that's pretty much the black and white of it.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
So, you know, when you actually sat down to actually
start writing this thing, you know what was the impetus
for the idea.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
It came from a few different places. One, I was
a huge wrestling fan between the ages of like eight
and thirteen, and then I grew out of it, but
I still stayed interested in the behind the scenes world
of it, and I like the business side of it.
It was really interesting to me. So I would read
wrestler's autobiographies, even though I wasn't absorbing like the product anymore.

(35:09):
But so I always had a great respect for it.
And then all of a sudden, I, you know, I
had all this knowledge about it, and they say, right, well,
you know, And so that was one of the things
that got me going but another was that my older
cousin he also loved professional wrestling, but wanted to do
it for a living. And he, you know, he's a
really good looking dude, really well spoken. He's like just

(35:31):
pure muscle, six foot three. And he went to train
at the Lance Storm Academy in Calgary, Alberta, a prolific
wrestling town, and that's one of the places that really
ship guys off to the to the WWE or the
FED as they refer to it, if they're any good.
And so my cousin went there and he quit after

(35:52):
just like a week, and I was like, man, I,
you know, I couldn't believe it. This is like what
he'd been talking about his whole life. And it was
so interesting to hear him tell me how it was
different than he thought it would be. And but even
more that stuck with me is when he told me
about some of the other kids in the class who
just were delusional about there, you know, like about their

(36:13):
basically their odds of making it in the business. But
because you can just tell when people don't have that
drive or don't have what it takes to do something.
And not like he was puting any anyone down there
was a lot of great talents in the class as well,
But I just couldn't get that out of my mind.
The idea of two people who are attempting something that
you know, have no idea and via how tough it's

(36:33):
actually going to be. And so that is sort of
where the idea for heal Kit came. You know.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
I like that, by the way, the experience of hearing
what he went, how he went there, and you know,
what he found out, because I think that's a lot
of times, you know, people have an idea of what
something's going to be, and then when they finally get that,
you know, that expectation, and when then reality finally hits,
they're like, this isn't what I really wanted. You know,
I didn't really want to you know, I thought training
was gonna be a little different, or I thought this

(36:59):
experience would be a little better, or you know, and
and and you meet people too who who have that
x you know, who have that unreal expectations of what
this is going to give to them or there, you
know what I mean. And and you find that in
film too, where you know, somebody thinks they're gonna make
a film, you know, in the living room with an
iPhone and and when sun dance, you know what I mean,
it's like how many times have you heard that?

Speaker 4 (37:19):
You know?

Speaker 3 (37:19):
And so it's but but it's stuff like that. I mean,
that's why I really am glad you. Yeah, we got
into telling this story because it adds to the to
the movie itself because actually I used to do backgard wrestling,
uh back here in Philadelphia, and uh, I so the
movie kind of speaks to me now honestly the ending.
I haven't seen the movie yet, and I'm gonna I'm
gonna make a note to actually make sure I check

(37:40):
this movie out because uh, obviously if it's right in
my wheelhouse. But uh, but like you, I fell out
of love with wrestling a long while ago. And uh,
but again, it's so fun to you know, see movies
like this about you know, backyard wrestling or or you know,
movies like The Wrestler and stuff like that. You know,
it's kind of cool to to see that, you know,
this stuff that we used to be into, and you know,
it's it's a good story with it and that you know,

(38:01):
it's not all about that, you know what I mean,
It's it's all.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
Good, absolutely, and this is kind of the wrestling movie
that I wished was around when I was really really
into wrestling. And it's been cool to screen the film
around North America and have like real hardcore wrestling fans
tell me that as well. It means a lot. And
wrestling is such an amazing subculture and you can go
deep down the rabbit hole of learning about it and

(38:26):
exploring what that world is like. And it was just
so fun to get back into it. Not to mention
the fact that I literally had to train because I
play one of the backyard wrestlers in the movies.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
So did you like train by getting hit with like
light tubes and going through tables days?

Speaker 4 (38:44):
Well, we actually, I mean the film starts with these
guys are more like fans than anything. You know, they're
just classic procrastinators that they pretty much just goof off
all day. And then they're one of the guy who
plays my brother, Matthew Graham. He he challenges us. He says,
all for your wrestling school, but you have to go
to class every day and you have to improve. And

(39:05):
if you if you can't do it, if you can't
show that your fund you got what it takes, then
you've got to, you know, give up on this wrestling
dream forever and just get a real job and move
on with your life. So that's when they start going
to wrestling school. And so I wanted to show real progression,
so I placed myself and Chris Wilcox, who plays Maurice,
the other backyard wrestler. I placed us in an actual

(39:26):
training program with a real wrestling academy called ECCW based
in Vancouver, and they operate all over the Pacific Northwest.
And some really talent comes out of there. I don't
know if you know, you know Kyle O'Reilly who's just
joined up in NXT the other day and he's big
on an indie scene, and you know, just tons of

(39:48):
great talent go through there and still go through there.
But we were actually training for six months to prepare
for what we do in the film. So yeah, we
didn't tell anyone.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
That we were doing it for a movie. Only very
few people knew because we didn't want to get treated
any differently. So eventually they found out you do form
you know, serious bonds with these with the people in
class and the people that are training you after a
few months, which you should when you're like dropping each
other on your spine forty times a day, you should
probably get close to those people and make sure they're

(40:31):
on your good side. But yeah, so I actually had
to train to become a professional wrestler for it, and
it was, you know, talk about things being different than
you thought they would be. Oh, ma'am.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
So, you know, with your experience on Love and Hate,
what were some of the things that you took in
the heel kick? Like, was it about, you know, not
wearing too many hats?

Speaker 4 (40:53):
You know?

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Was it maybe doing things a little bit differently in
terms of like planning or even marketing.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Marketing? Definitely, because the whole world of film marketing changed
from twenty ten to now. So that was just something
that I never had to worry about before. But I
tried to educate myself on that as best as possible.
And our co producer on the film is Greg Miller,
and he's a really big name in the entertainment world,
and he's a YouTube star and really big big in

(41:21):
the video game world, and he just has a huge
love for professional wrestling, and he and I became friends
a few years ago, and so he's been spreading the
word about the film as the co producer, getting it
out there. So he's been you know, he's sort of
our human megaphone. I like to refer to him that way,
and he's really helped us get butts in the seeds
of these screenings and have people find out about the film.
And we're arts to wearing a lot of hats. I

(41:43):
still did that. I was still the writer, the lead,
the co director and the producer on this project, and
I was in the editing room for every frame of
the film. And not to mention the fact that I was,
you know, working out and training at a professional wrestling
academy for six months as well. But I think the
difference was just getting a little bit more money together
so you can pay people enough that make that your

(42:05):
film is their main priority. Because that was the big
biggest takeaway from Love Hate was that when everyone's got
their other job and when you can't afford to pay anyone,
you know, everyone's still committed and they want and they
want to help you out. But when it's their job,
it's a whole it's it's a different story, right, Like
everyone's going to be there and nothing can take them
away from that place. And you also aren't working on

(42:27):
people's free time. Their free time is when they're off
of your set. And you know, it seems simple, but
that was really the biggest takeaway. If someone was going
to be there more than a couple of days for
the shoot, it was they were going to get paid
for it, and it was going to be their job.
And so with that said, I could wear all those hats,

(42:48):
and you know, there's something to be said for stepping
back and and sharing the responsibility. But and I certainly
did that, even though it sounds like I wore all
these hats. But you know, if you have a vision
for something, you might as well. I'll wear as many
hats as you possibly can, because you know, you don't
want to delegate something off to someone who's not as
passionate about the project as you are, because it's going

(43:08):
to lose its voice. So people are like, man, you
did a lot in this movie, and I was like, yeah, well,
you know, I had a very certain way that I
wanted to say things, so it was just kind of
a no brainer for me, really.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah, And see, so what I wanted to ask is,
how did you go about getting George as a producer.
And also, like when you talk about, you know, having
money to pay people, did you actually you know, go
out and put together like a pitch packet to find
different people and and sort of say like, you know,
this is what we did with Love Hate, and you know,
this is what we could do with this movie if
we had just a little bit more money.

Speaker 4 (43:41):
Exactly. Yeah. Basically, I put together a little plan and
I sent it to pretty much everyone I knew who
I figured could spare like a couple thousand dollars and
they wouldn't, you know, if they never made their money back,
they wouldn't hate me, or they wouldn't have to sell
their home or something like that. So I put together
a package. I told everyone, you know what I did
with Love Hate with extremely little resources, and how I

(44:04):
could capitalize on another film today with much greater success.
And we never you know, we never even sold DVDs
of our first film. We didn't do anything else with
it after that because it just became so much work
and we wanted to move on to other projects. So
it was pretty easy to convince people to come on
board with this one, especially after they read the script
and they thought it was really funny and really touching

(44:25):
and they liked it, and that was pretty much it
for that. And then in regards to getting Greg Miller
on board, we Cooper and I threw a charity Mario
Kart tournament at this pub in Vancouver where we live,
and we flew celebrities from the gaming world out. So
we had cos players come out, we had game developers,

(44:46):
and we got in touch with Greg Miller, who was
just leaving his job at IGN at the time. I
think he was the senior PlayStation editor, and we had
him come out and we formed a friendship and we
just stayed in touch ever since. And then the closer
we got, the more I realized how he'l kick was
something that would be like right up his alley, and

(45:09):
I asked if he wanted to come on as a
co producer and help spread the word about the film,
and he said yes, And so that's how we've been
getting the word out ever since.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
And now I see that that that's absolutely fantastic. By
the way, I actually called him George instead of Greg.
I don't know why. I don't know what if we
got George from Sorry about that, but uh good, But
but see that that that stuff like that. You see.
I always have a saying, you know, your net worth
is your network and being able just to go up
to people and and you know, it's kind of like
what Sam Raimi did, honestly, Danny with with The First

(45:40):
Evil Dead. He went to different people and they each
kicked in a little bit of money and that's how
he made the film, you know, rather than having one
investor who gives It's kind of like that idea, you know,
do you want one investor to give you a million
dollars or do you want a million investors to give
you one dollar?

Speaker 4 (45:56):
Mm hmm, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
So it's kind of like, you know, there's pros and
to each and obviously you know, and honestly, with doing
this podcast, I've heard both and everything in between. But
using that, you know, and using your network and then
able to get somebody like Greg and and as forming
a relationship with him, and you know, just for everyone
listening to Danny, let me I just want to pick
your brain about this really quickly. For somebody who was

(46:21):
thinking about maybe pitching a YouTube star or pitching somebody else,
what are some of the tips you have for them?
I mean, because we've all seen that mistake where it's
like they meet somebody that they want to work with
and the first thing they do is like, you have
to help me, please God. Do you have any like
tips or anything on like networking or even pitching that
you you know, you could just give to the listeners.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
I would say, And I think the people who are
the best at this would tell you the same thing,
and that it's that don't pester people right out of
the gate. You need to form honest to God relationships
and bonds with people and have things that you that
you both like and share interest in, and then if
something is a good fit, then I think you should
have approached them. Otherwise, you know, just don't go ringing

(47:06):
every doorbell that you can find asking for favors. Like
Greg and I, you know, like we flew him down
to Vancouver for that thing, and that was just a
party and we raised like seven thousand dollars for the
BC Children's Hospital. It was just a good time and
we stayed in touch after that, and you know, I
just presented him the movie and he would keep telling me,
like anything you need for help on this thing, like

(47:27):
let me know, and you know, so it wasn't so
much me asking him as him offering, and then I said,
you know what, let's make it official. Let's make you
a part of the team. So I think, just like,
look for the signs, like some people will be interested
in jumping on projects with you and others won't. But
in regards to like a YouTube celebrity specifically, that is
a thing that we're seeing a lot more of in

(47:49):
the indie film world. Oh I'm not sure if you've
noticed it, but when I was at the AFM in
Santa Monica two years ago, a lot of people's pitches
like weren't with movie stars anymore. It was with YouTube
stars in the roles and that they were coming on
as producers and stuff like that. And I was like, wow,
I just talked to like six filmmakers and I didn't

(48:09):
know half the names they were talking about because they're
not actors there, they're online celebrities. And I think that's
a trend that's going to be going up. So I
would just say for that, remember, at the end of
the day, your film has to be well acted. And
it's seems like funny to say that, but you know
a lot of people forget that they just try and
cram as many recognizable names into a project as possible.

(48:30):
But like, just think of all the amazing talent that
have been in a bad movie before. Like, you're not
going to watch a bad movie with your favorite actor
in it. And you know, I'm not saying that they
would be giving a bad performance, but just things don't
always come together and that performance has to be there
on screen. So I really like the idea of Greg
coming on as a co producer because what these people

(48:52):
do best is build communities and build awareness about things
that they think are cool. And so I think that
the capacity in which Greg has come on is a
great way to involve some of these YouTube celebrities because
they're interested in production and film and stuff like that,
you don't necessarily have to, you know, make them the

(49:13):
star of your movie if that's something that you're not
comfortable doing. And I'm not saying that, you know, internet
celebrities aren't great performers, a lot of them are, but
there's more than one way to include someone in your
film to benefit to benefit its longevity.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
Yeah, you know. I actually we had Jason Brubaker on
the podcast and he actually was at the forefront of
doing this. What he did was he got a bunch
of YouTuber stars together and he made Camp Dakota for
Netflix and they they it was a full YouTube stars. Well,
I have friends who were you know, you know, they're
probably like ten, fifteen, twenty years older than I am,

(49:49):
and they all have kids and stuff like that, and
the kids were like, oh my god, Camp Dakota's conet, like,
what the hell is Camp Dakota? Who the hell are
these people? Why is everyone caring about this movie?

Speaker 2 (50:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
And it's like because it's full YouTube stars and and
that they just packed it full of them and it
was like number one on Netflix when it came out.
But I agree with you completely, by the way, you
have to make sure that they can cause you know,
if you do like a maybe a five or ten
second video, hey, you know, that's that's really cool, But
you know, imagine stretching that out to an hour and
a half. You know, is that sustainable? Is this person sustainable?

(50:31):
Because you know, like like we were just saying at
the beginning of this interview, if they're not in you know,
if they're not around film or know how this all works.
I mean, you end up saying to them, hey, listen,
you used to spend an hour a day making a
video that got a million hits. Well now you're gonna
spend sixteen hours on set and we're gonna be lucky
to break even with this film.

Speaker 4 (50:53):
M hmm. Yeah, it's just a completely different world, You're right. Yeah.
And Bwbaker, Jason Brewbaker is such a smart guy too.
And you see a lot of other people try to
capitalize on that idea and it doesn't always work out.
But I do think that's gonna be a serious trend
in the film industry and that's not going away anytime soon.
So if you're gonna, if if that's what you're gonna do,

(51:14):
if you're gonna include people from another industry that isn't
the film industry and bring them into your film project,
just make sure that you're doing it in the in
the best way possible to service the film.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
Yeah. Absolutely, And uh, you know, and we've both seen
movies that that sort of fall into that whole like
celebrity sort of trap. I mean, for instance, I had
a friend of mine he cast this girl specifically because
of her social media following. And here's the kicker, she
refused to promote the movie to her social media following.
So's yeah, and it was like and and finally, begrudgingly

(51:51):
she finally did and and it got nothing. Like they
had no analytics from it because nobody really followed her
to hear about some movie she was going to be in.
They wanted to see photos of her, you know, in
like a bikini and stuff like that. She wasn't a
YouTube star. I should have I should have predicated everything
with that. But she was like, you know, like a
model and the heat. And he was like, oh my god,

(52:12):
this if we get her in there, this is going
to be awesome. And you know, it just all filtered away.
It just it didn't really do much of anything. And
people with lower numbers had much more engage fans. We're like,
we want to see this person as an actor, you know,
we want to see this person in an actual film.
And you know, hey, I said, you know, it does
make sense though, if you think about it. You know,

(52:33):
if if you follow, if if some guy follows a
model online, does he does he necessarily would he pay
to see her in a movie and when he can
get a photo of her for free.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
You know, yeah, it doesn't translate, it really doesn't, and
hopefully people will figure out the best way to do it.
I really love my relationship with Greg, like, well, we
are friends as well, but I think this is a
cool project and the way that and the way that
he's helping spread the word about it is great. And
you know, his community is into this kind of stuff,
Like there's a lot of pro wrestling that follow him
in the kind of funny groups. So it was just

(53:03):
a good fit. Yeah. So if if it wasn't, he
wouldn't be involved, but you know who knows.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
Yeah, and you know, just to going back to to
backyard wrestling in your movie, He'll kick you know, it
is there is a that that wrestling industry that the
fans are very loyal, especially that you know, there's all
the hardcore fans who go to the indie shows every weekend,
you know, just by again, I haven't seen the movie yet,
you know, And I'll be honest, I haven't seen the
movie yet, So I don't I don't want to be
one of those guys Danny who tries to like you know,

(53:29):
fake it through, like you ever see those interviews where
the guy clearly hasn't seen the movie, so I ask
questions like, well, how did you do that thing? And
it's like what it's like, you know, But but I
I can you know, I can imagine this is a
movie for them, because this again is a movie I
would have wanted to see in a way because you know,
again I used to be big into wrestling and do

(53:50):
backyard wrestling stuff and do all that crazy nonsense that
you look back on now like, oh my god, how
am I not dead? But uh, you know, it's just
that idea of too, of going to these independent shows.
And that's imagine the two guys, the two leads are
are two guys you know, aiming to you know, uh
get to the biggest you know, the league in the land.
But they have to you know, train at the local

(54:10):
you know, uh wrestling school. They have to you know,
go into the and and wrestle and some of these
indie promotions that and again it's probably not what they
think it's going to be, you know. And and uh,
because it's just like real life, you.

Speaker 4 (54:21):
Know, very true. Yeah, I wanted to make a really
realistic like you know, I don't want to make a
movie where two guys decide to be wrestlers and then
boom they're fighting like Stone Cold Steve Boston and the
Roth at the final scene, or I want to you
know what happens when two guys want to be pro
wrestler as well. First you research local wrestling academies and
then you see if they'll take you on, and then
you pay your gym figes and then if you're good enough,

(54:42):
you get put into the show, and then you can
start traveling around and doing it with other promotions. You know,
Like I just wanted to really show off what it's
actually like, and you know, and people have told us,
and a lot of people in the indie rerestling scene
as well have told us that it's it's really true
to form, but it's also you know, it's got to
be funny too, So there's there's a few liberties, but

(55:04):
really not too much at all. And I would leave
out the training sections from the script until I had
trained more myself in real life because I wanted my
actual training to be reflected in the film. So I
was like, I wonder how this works when you're teaching
someone how to do this, and then when you know
when the when the wrestlers would teach me how to
do that, then I would put it into the movie.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
Yeah, and that's really cool. And imagine too, when you
were talking about to the actors, you know, you probably
were like, hey, guys, you know, you'll probably you know,
to go through there take a few bumps, and they
have to be cool with it, you know what I mean. Like,
so it goes into sort of the whole idea of
paying your dues for your craft, if you know.

Speaker 4 (55:41):
What I mean. Yeah, definitely. I mean, the only people
that really took bumps were besides the actual professional wrestlers
that are in the film are myself and Chris will Wilcox,
who plays the other wrestler. And I was I don't
even think I could have cast this movie if I
had the money to, because I don't know who would
have done this. Like when you see the film, you'll
see there's a few moments in it you're like, oh

(56:02):
my god, that was pretty harsh. And the reason that
you know it's it's just extra intense for an audience
watching it is because you're comfortable watching a movie for
the first act and and you're into the performers and
then all of a sudden, they're doing things that you
would see a stuntman do, and that was sort of
where a production value would be I figured, is that

(56:24):
we would be doing all these things ourselves. And we
shot the film for only forty thousand dollars Canadian, which
is another thing that I wanted to bring up because
when people ask me, like, how did you get all
the money together to shoot a heel kick? And I
was like, well, we you know, it's easy to get
the money together when you're not asking for half a
million dollars or three million dollars, or if you're not
making like a big epic sci fi film. You know, like,

(56:45):
I don't want to write something that I know I
could never afford to get made. But anyway back to
my point, Yeah, as a director, you probably shouldn't ask
any actor to do anything you're not willing to do yourself.
So I've made sure to do all the worse things
myself and share them, of course with my costar credit.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
Yeah, and you know that's a good point too, because
you know, people write things that really you know, sometimes
they think they can shoot like a sci fi movie,
one hundred paid sci fi movie for like ten thousand dollars.
And it's just like or there was a person I
knew who was trying to shoot a time traveling period
piece for like five grand, and I said, you're going
to spend five thousand dollars in in in close alone, unless,

(57:26):
of course, yeah, unless of course you travel back in
time and you shoot it in a state park and
you also have one character dressed up in like in
historical times, you know, regalia, and then it's even pushing
it like so it has to be like a very
quickly done and shot very very carefully. So because if

(57:47):
you you know, if you have something in the background
like a skyscraper or you know it's supposed to be
a war going on, there's no you know, there's no
army or something, it looks it immediately just destroys the
whole idea what you're trying to do.

Speaker 4 (58:01):
Yeah, you gotta be careful about what you're planning on shooting.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
Yeah. So yeah, it's just that's why again, you know,
we always have to have you know, always aim high,
but then always you know, realize what you have access to,
you know, make those lists of resources and stuff like that,
you know, and so Denny, I wanted to ask you
where do people check out He'll Kick Movie.

Speaker 4 (58:22):
So currently it's just we're four walling a little theatrical
tour around North America. So upcoming screenings are going to
be there's gonna be one in Saskatoon, there's going to
be one in Portland, and most likely one in Seattle,
and those are going to be over the next six
or seven weeks, and then we are finally going to
call it a day with our theatrical tour and we're

(58:45):
going to get the film out there onto iTunes. We're
going to self distribute it, so we're using destribber, speaking
of Jason Rubaker, So that is going to be what
we're rolling out in the next little while here in
the meantime, Yeah, people can follow it at Heel Kick
Movie on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
Yeah, and very cool that you're touring with it. And yeah,
Jason Brewbreaker, awesome guy, I'm so glad that you're using
the stribber. I'm telling you, I always tell people if
you really are confused about how to distribute your movie,
go talk to Jason. Like Jason's so up, like just
straightforward with it too. He goes, look, maybe you can
just put a buy now button on a website, you

(59:22):
know what I mean. And it's just he's not even
though he does work for Destribber, he's not always like,
oh you got to go to the stubber or else,
blah blah blah. He is like one of the straightest
and most honest guys, and he's so knowledgeable, like you said,
and he's a good guy to know.

Speaker 4 (59:37):
Yeah, he's a straight shooter and he's a really good guy.
I would I would recommend indie filmmakers think about using
that platform or other ones like it early, like while
you're writing, because it's it's just gonna make things so
much easier if you know where what your filming should
wind up and what avenues you're gonna take it down
before you even start shooting.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
We'll be right back after word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
Yeah, absolutely, So, you know, Danny, we've been talking for
about I guess maybe about fifty five minutes now, you know,
is there anything in closing that you have any part,
like final thoughts or anything you want to say that
we get a chance to, or even just anything you
want to say to put a period at the end
of this whole conversation.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Yeah, I mean, check out the trailer if it seems
like a movie that interests you, or follow us along.
We're really active on social media and we always let
people know where the film is going to be and
when it's going to be out, and we'd love for
people to watch it. Really do not have to know
anything about professional wrestling at all to enjoy the film
that is, and that's me quoting hundreds of people who

(01:00:49):
have seen it who have no interest in professional wrestling,
and that was just as important to us as making
a film that hardcore wrestling fans would love as well.
So we think we've struck the balance. Yeah, and you'll
definitely get some last out of it. So I really
hope people can check it out and hopefully it is
out there in the big wide world of the internet's
early fall, maybe like early October, And.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
I'm gonna make sure check out the movie when it
comes out, Danny and into the October, because I do
want to check this out again because it is right
up my alley way and Danny, where can people find
you out online?

Speaker 4 (01:01:23):
Online? They can find me at the Underscore Danny Mack
pretty much everywhere, Danny Mack.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
I want to say thank you so much for coming
on and Chatt and Heel Kick Movie and all this
good stuff and everyone. Everything but that Danny and I
talked about will be in the show notes at Dave
Bulls dot com. Danny, I wish you the best luck
with Heel Kickmovie, and I look forward to see what
we got coming out next after this is all said
and done, all the dust settles, and you know, I
want to see what you come out with next.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
Thanks very much. I'm ot of the show and I
think it's a great tool for filmmakers to listen to,
so I appreciate being on.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Indie film Huscle
dot com. Forward slash eight thirty two, and if you
have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com,
subscribe and leave a good review for the show.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you
again so much for listening. Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive,
stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at
indiefilm hustle dot com. That's I N D I E
F I L M h U s t l E
dot com.