FBI PROFILER DISCUSSES THE FOUR MURDERS OF UNIVERSITY OF IDAHO STUDENTS3

None

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze some of the most
notorious criminal cases with psychology and criminologycombined. Well, welcome back right now

(00:26):
since I caught COVID, but we'reback in business and with me today is
of course a good friend of mine, Andrew Bringle, former FBI profile.
He was an FB effort over twentyseven years and now he's the head of
Behavioral Science Unit LLC dot com.So we're gonna be talking about the tragedy

(00:47):
over in the University of Idaho wherethe four girls or three girls and one
boy was murdered. So let's welcometo the show. Andy, Welcome back,
Hey Carlos. It was a longseparation. Two months. I was
in Abu Dhabi, that's right,joined the beautiful weather of Abu Dhabi.

(01:07):
Now I came back to Central NewYork and it's on on the thirties with
twenty mile an hour winds off thelake. We did miss the weather reports
I missed, and I do missthe desert sun for sure, but it's
nice to be back. Christmas seasonis here. My seven year old daughters
looking forward to Santa Claus coming,and I'm looking forward to making sure she
has a great Christmas. I alsohave one of my adult children come to

(01:32):
visit this weekend. So hey,I understand you're under the weather. I
hope you feel better soon. It'snot COVID, is it? Is it
COVID? It's COVID. Oh man, its COVID. This in the second
time you've had it. No,it's the very first time. I was
a voided it for three years.Well yeah, so again. Yeah,

(01:57):
we'll talk about the murders and he'sgonna take most of the show. As
you can tell, my voice iskind of disappearing. But Andy, you
got a lot of insight on thiswhen we talked about this the other day.
Did you want me to read thecurrent story or did you just want
to take it away now you canrecap. I just was gonna say,
I've been asked to a couple mediaspots. I was overseas for one of

(02:21):
them, but when I got back, I did one for another media outlet,
and it gave me an opportunity tolook at this case. And it's
certainly an interesting case, and atragic one at that for the victims and
the community. The fact that it'sunsolved at this time certainly puts fear and
many people's minds that are in thearea. And the school is back in

(02:43):
session for the next couple of weeksbefore the recess for the holiday. So
my hope and prayers go out tothose that are affected by the crime,
and my best wishes to the threepolice agencies, the Moscow Police Department,
the Idahost Police and the FBI thatare assisting to find this person who's responsible,

(03:06):
person or persons who are responsible forthis crime and bring them to justice
as quickly as possible. I'll reada little bit of this. This is
the latest from CNN three hours ago. They're going to recap some of the
stuff right now, you know.Unfortunately they regurgitating stories a lot right now
because they don't have as much informationor the police are going to release it.
And again, folks, you gotto remember, they're not going to

(03:27):
tell you everything is. You needto be able to capture this this person,
so they don't want to tip theirhand. Police are investigating the last
months killing. Still believe the targetthe attack was targeted, though they haven't
concluded if the target was the residenceor its occupants. The four students are
Ethan Chaplin twenty Kaylee Gunkavas twenty one, Zonakernodle twenty and Madison mogan At twenty

(03:49):
one. They are found stabbed todeath November thirteenth. So now it's been
almost eighteen days in an now offcampus home in the College channel of Moscow,
upending it community that hadn't record asingle murder in almost a decade and
seven years. One of the thingsthey were talking about, detectives do not

(04:10):
currently know if the residents. Theyjust they keep repeating the same thing over
and over again, the story.They're trying to make it longer than it
is. They remain consistent in theirbelief that this was indeed a targeted attack.
They're not sure whether or not thepublic has anything to worry about.
They've kind of given confusing statements aboutthat. Early on, they said it
was an isolated, targeted attack andthere's no longer a threat to the community.
Now they've backtracked it. Authorities publiclymaintained investigators believe the killings were targeted.

(04:35):
This is like the fifth time inthis article until I try to really
extend this article as much as theycan. They're conducted one hundred and fifty
interviews a thousand tips from the publichave been received so far. That's really
about it. The crime scene washorrific, they said, a lot of
blood everywhere. And you'll talk alittle bit more about that in a minute
when we get into the particulars,and just telling you to look right now,

(04:58):
anything else that I can see.On the night of the killings,
two the girls were at a sportsbar and the boy and the girl another
the other boy and girl were seenat a fraternity party. Investigators believe all
four victims had returned to the homeby two in the morning the night of
the stabbings. Two surviving roommates hadalso gone out at night and returned to
the house by about one Police hadinitially the two girls returned to the home

(05:19):
by one forty five, but theylater updated the timeline, saying digital evidence
show that the pier returned around onefifty six after visiting a food truck and
being driven home by a private partytwo surviving roommates. The next morning,
seven friends to the residence because theybelieve one of the second floor victims had
passed out and was not waking up, and when police arrived, they found

(05:41):
two victims on the second floor.Two victims on the third there was no
sign of forced entry or damage.Investigators and I believe the two surviving roommates
were involved in the deaths. That'spretty much the latest. Some of it
the same. Let's backtrack a littlebit, okay, So to address some
of the issues that you brought up, the targeted versus non targeted and why
the police might say that. Acouple of reasons that the police's the articles

(06:05):
I read, have backtracked because ofthe based on miscommunication between their office and
the prosecutor, the county prosecutor,who suggested that these crimes might have been
a targeted crime. But when youlook at the why behind that and how
they develop an investigative theory, theywere there three floors in this home.

(06:25):
There were victims on the third floorand the and the second floor. There
were two young ladies that were murdered, tragically murdered on the third floor,
Madison and Kailey. They were sleepingin the same bed. And then in
the second floor, Zana and Ethanwere in a bedroom and they were also
killed. But there were two roommatesin the first on the first floor that

(06:47):
were spared. So the police theoryat the time might have been that and
this is conjecture, but they mighthave looked at it as a target attack
because two victims were left live onthe first floor. Uh. That that's
one. The second is by tellingthe community that this is a targeted attack,

(07:08):
they're inferring that no one else hasto worry that there's there's not a
wild or crazy serial killer running loosein Moscow, and to assuade those those
fears that people might have because thecamp the students were coming back from you
know, Thanksgiving break, and theywere going to be back on campus for
two weeks for final so it mighthave been an attempt to kind of calm

(07:33):
the community and and and try toprevent hysteria. In any case, they're
now looking at all of the evidenceand they're leaving things open. So they're
not saying it wasn't targeted. They'resimply saying that they're not that they're not
going to say it was targeted.It could be or couldn't be. They're
two really working two theories. Solet's backtrack again in terms of how these

(07:54):
cases evolved. When you have aninvestigation, is only one of two ways
they opened. You either have someonecall you in say hey, I'm a
victim of a crime, or I'mabout to be a victim of a crime
proactively, right, or you havea crime that's already committed, and that's
what you have here. So thepolice are truly law enforcement because now they're
reacting to a crime. There wasa phone call to nine point one about

(08:16):
this unconscious body. In fact,it was four dead bodies. But the
police arrived, and what they didn'tknow at the time was that the two
surviving roommates had called two friends.I was making an assumption that they were
male friends because they thought something wasa miss in the house, and so
they brought these two other individuals whothen contaminated a crime scene. Right.

(08:39):
So now the police have four bodies, and never mind the fact that they
haven't had a murder in seven years, but now they're confronted with this very
extremely violent attack against four individuals.Other people that have been inside this home,

(09:00):
not just the four that were there, the two roommates and the two
young men that were called or twopeople that were called, we don't know
they were male, but also otherpeople that had been in that home recently
because that was known as a partyhome. So they have to then contain
all that evidence so that they canlater review it and try to figure out
who was responsible for the crime.So I think the first part of this

(09:22):
is, you know, why didthey backtrack. I don't think it was
anything nefarious or incompetent on the partof the police. They're simply doing their
job. They're looking for the subjectthat's responsible for these crimes, and they
also want to create a mass hysteriain the community. By the way,
in typical of these cases, youand I have talked about others, you
know, in the types of coldcases and active cases that when there's a

(09:46):
lot of publicity on an investigation,you start getting thousands or hundreds of tips.
In this case, over a thousandtips leads, and each one of
them have to be worked right andreviewed and and so tremendous pool on manpower
for a small department, which iswhy they called the state police in.
And the resources, particularly forensic resources, extremely important, but also you know,

(10:15):
timely, and so they had tocall in the FBI to get federal
resources. So yeah, So that'show I would open our conversation on this,
before we get into the crime sceneand whether it's a serial killer or
a targeted attack. A couple ofthings I wanted to ask you quickly.
Here. One thing for folks toknow out their theories are not facts.
They're just theories. And a lotof times the media doesn't portray it that

(10:37):
way. They'll just portray it as, oh, this is what they believe,
and people misunderstand it sometimes, Imean not all of the media's fault.
Sometimes it's people misunderstand it. Buttheories are not facts. And I
guess my question to here is aretheory multiple theories are common, aren't they?
I mean, these type of investigations. So I used to teach the
investigative process to brand new FBI.Just so again, going back to my
earlier point, you either have somebodycall and say I'm about to be a

(10:58):
victim of a crime, or Iwas a victim of a crime, or
police respond to a crime scene,which is what happened here. Immediately you
start containing that site if it's acrime scene, and you're human, right,
you're an investigator. So you gointo the investigative mode and you start
creating an investigative hypothesis, a questionof how this crime could be committed or
was committed, And so almost immediatelyyou start looking for the right questions to

(11:24):
answer, and then the collection ofevidence and the analyzing the evidence, and
then the collection of witnesses and interviewingthose witnesses, and then the deductive process
of having suspects of maybe a halfdozen or a dozen and a half and
then reducing that pool. And soyou've heard that in this case, right,
You heard that the driver that broughtthe two young ladies back to the

(11:48):
house has been cleared, the boyfriendhas been cleared, the guy at the
food truck has been cleared, thetwo roommates. All we've heard is that
the police are doing their job andthey're interviewing these people, and this time
these individuals are no longer people ofinterest persons of interest by the investigators now
having said that things could change.Evidence can come to the front and lead

(12:13):
them back to an individual that they'vepreviously said was not part of it.
But if what we have, andthis is all I preface our comments,
both of our comments by this isall open source information. Neither one of
us have access to the information thatthe police have. And your earlier point
is absolutely correct. The police aren'tgoing to just show everything they have.

(12:35):
There is a killer out there,right, and so they have to catch
that killer first, but they alsoneed information that only the killer knows,
and so they want to hold it. Here's a couple points to think about
though. This particular kind of crimescene is extremely brutal. It is it
is savage. People don't just dielike in the movie with one stablound.

(12:58):
There were multiple stab wounds to theupper torso and face by this person.
Uh, there's two sides to lookat that. One from the victim.
When you get stabbed with a knife, you don't die instantly, and your
reaction is to fight back. Somultiple we don't know how many, but
the press has reported multiple victims showeddefensive wounds, all right, So so

(13:22):
you have people there. Well,yeah, so that's one thing, so
you know they'll be looking at forensicallythe DNA. The victims fighting back made
a caud the subject, the perpetrator, so he may have left some DNA
at the crime scene, so they'llbe looking at that. But beyond that,
the victims had to have yelled.There were four of them. Even

(13:45):
if you're stabbed in bed sleeping,you don't stay you know, you don't
die instantly, right, So therewere that was got There had to be
a lot of noise. It mighthave awakened a person or two. Could
he have cut their throats? Wedon't know, I don't you know,
we don't have access to that.The oppress hasn't reported that, but we
know that they were stabbed. Thisis what the press is saying. They

(14:07):
were stabbed in the upper torso severaltimes and in the face. So again,
you get stabbed, you don't dieinstantly. The other part of that
from the flip side, the personthat's committing this act on four people.
It's bad enough to stab one personto death. It's trauma. It's a
traumatic event for both without defending yourselfright, and you're stabbing that person in

(14:28):
the blood that's coming out of thatperson and onto you is gonna make you,
you know, very You're gonna bevery bloody. You're gonna leave your
your fingerprints with blood or your footprints. You can step in the blood and
leave a shoe print. So thepolice, I believe, has have over
a one hundred and nine I thinkphotographs of the crime scene. There's been

(14:50):
over one hundred interviews of witnesses,and there's been over one hundred and three
pieces of evidence collected. There overa thousand leads four hundred and eighty eight
digital leads alone to the FBI's hotland. The governor has released a million dollars
for this investigation. So there's alot of investigative effort that's going on here

(15:16):
and there's a lot of forensic evidencethat needs to be looked at. Now,
let's look at the crime scene itself, whether it's a targeted attack or
not. You know, there's aguy named Roy Hazelwood. He was a
profiler well before. He's one ofmy heroes, right, and well known,
well authored individual. He passed awaynot that long ago, but he's

(15:39):
the one that's credited with the conceptof organized and disorganized crime scenes and when
they're applied in well. Two theoriesthat I would look at in this case.
One is it's a serial killer,right and if that's the case,
then the house may have been targeted, these individuals may have been targeted.
You could still you could be aserial killer and be targeted. This right

(16:02):
now is defined as a mass killing. Four people killed in one location wasn't
a spree killing. He didn't goto another place and kill a bunch of
people. It could still be aserial killer who is either organized or disorganized,
and that quite a quite honestly,that serial killer could have known the
victims, right, So there aresome differences between organized and disorganized crime scene.
And I know that some recent researchhas looked at these kinds of cases

(16:26):
and debunked some of the theory thatRoy came up with. But Roy broke
him down into two. And aserial killer that's organized is usually married,
they have a family, or there'vebeen in a relationship. John Waynacy,
Dennis Raider, the BTK killer someexamples of that. Disorganized crime scene serial

(16:51):
killers typically aren't in a long termrelationship, have inability to maintain a relationship.
Oftentimes they borderline personality disorders and sothey however, disorganized crime scene or
disorganized serial killer often commits his crimesunder the use of alcohol or drugs.

(17:12):
And so you know, when you'retalking about somebody stabbing a bunch of people,
multiple people with an it kind oflends itself to these people who are
these types of serial killers or typeof killers that fantasize the murder and the
and the violence. And oftentimes,like Richard Chase, a serial killer who
was abusing alcohol, LSD and marijuana. It could be someone who's that is

(17:37):
drug induced when they commit these crimes. Another is that an organized serial killer
oftentimes stalks the victim. They havea plan and a methodology in which they
want to engage the victim and oftencontrol the victim to at the time of
death. Dennis Raider, the BTKkillers example of that, planned his tax

(18:00):
methodically picked out his They enjoyed thehunt, so to speak. So perhaps
you know this individual was a stalker. I think one of the victims had
reported having a stalker. The policeare still looking at that. That lead
the uh disorganized So serial kill doesn'tgenerally stalk the victim. They will take

(18:23):
victims as crimes of opportunity. Theyalso don't hide the body, and which
is often the case in an organizedor position the body. Danny Rawlings in
Gainesville, Florida chucked the heads offof his victims and then position the body
so that it looked like it wasin prayer and the heads were pointed back
towards the body in a crob kindof of setting. The other thing about

(18:48):
organized serial killers is often keep atrophy of the crime. They want to
relive the crime and you don't seethat as often in disorganized crime scenes and
zero killers. Yes, and noneof that we have We don't know for
sure yet either in this case,any of that stuff yet have we have
we seen anything in regards they wouldn'tThe open source evidence hasn't shown that.

(19:10):
What we can infer from this particularcase from the crime scene is reported by
the media is that it was excessiveand that's an indicator of a disorganized crime
scene. Excessive or overkill is whatas Roy would say. No body positioning
either no body position that's been reported, But we know that the excessive force
like this was overkilled with the stabbingand the blood was literally running out of

(19:33):
the house. That's how much bloodwas spent from the victims. Another thing
that's interesting, and this may playinto this particular case that you know,
and I said this the other dayon music. My feeling is that this
individual knew these and these people andis hiding in plain sight, is more
than likely a local. And that'swhat you see from a disorganized crime scene

(19:56):
and a disorganized U real killer isthat they usually live near the crime scene.
Another example is Richard, you knowRichard's Chase. He lived very close
to the victims within a mile orso. They're often unskilled workers. So
an unskilled worker or a student,young male, somebody who thinks, you
know, has worked out and thinkshe could overtake someone with just a knife,

(20:21):
and yeah, he took four peopleout. He didn't know any of
those four people could have had agun. It's a high risk endeavor to
go into a home in the middleof the night unless you know the layout
and the people. So I wouldtend to think that you know, obviously
this disorganized crime scene from the informationwe have from the media, so obvious
to that point, and it seemsto me that you know whether or not

(20:42):
this is a serial killer. Thisis someone who fits that model of a
of a disorganized killer. The otherthing about organized crime crimes and those types
of killers is they often have akiller kit, you know, and back
at the behavioral sign tuning it downin the in the research center, we
had several of those that were collectedfrom previous serial killers. They travel,

(21:07):
so the more widespread crime patterns Imentioned ycap out of the behavioral the behavioral
analysis units, so they track thesetypes of killings across the country. And
so I'm sure part of the FBIresources not only includes a database search,
but also the development of a potentialprofile, which I'll get to in just

(21:29):
a moment. And the other thingabout organized crime scene or serial killers is
that they, like Ted Bundy,have usually a high IQ and of course
Bundy was responsible for the Chiomega Sororitymurders. So there's a lot of people
that have tied that back into tothis case that this might be a serial

(21:52):
killer. There's also the fact thatabout two months three months ago, that
there was a couple in the areathat were orded. Their dog had been
not only mutilated, but skinned.And of course there's a correlation between sociopathic
behavior, serial killers, and themutilation of animals. So people have drawn
that connection which may or may notbe connected at all. And then I

(22:15):
think in Oregon, about four hundredmiles away, a couple was brutally stabbed
while they were sleeping in bed.Again, police will look at these cases
and they'll see if there's a similarity. In many serial killers will leave a
signature, some kind of mark thatdraws to their particular personality and psychoses their

(22:40):
their need to live this uh thiscrime. And so the police have not
released that if there was something thatwould draw back to the to the particular
killer the case exactly, that's exactlyright. The other big difference is and
and the weapon has gotten a lotof attention. You know what, where's

(23:00):
this weapon that I think is akey bar knife? Is what they're describing
it as a fixed bladed knife.In an organized crime scene in serial killer
that they will take the weapon withthem. They usually bring the weapon with
them. Dennis Rader had a gun, so in this particular case, the
weapon was taken. It appears they'velooked at dumpsters in the area. They

(23:22):
recently took the five cars that wereparked out in front of I don't know
why. It took a week anda half or so for them to get
the cars, but yesterday they pulledthe cars to look at the evidence there.
But a disorganized crime scene, ina disorganized killer will often use an
improvised weapon. Doesn't seem to bethe case here. It seems to be

(23:42):
that they brought it, but thatmay that may change. They there may
show some evidence that the weapon wasthere all along and he took it,
but we don't know that for sure. The other thing that's critically important in
this particular case, as cases run, is a timeline, and so you'll
see that in the media. There'sactually several several articles that try to draw

(24:04):
the timeline. The four victims allarrived home about the same time, around
one thirty in the morning thereabouts.You know, two of them were at
a party at a sorority house,two of them were at another bar,
and then the food truck then drovehome, all four of them arriving about
the same time. By the way, the two young ladies that were spared,
they arrived home about thirty minutes earlier. So everyone around one o'clock to

(24:26):
one forty five were at the house. The two young ladies that were on
the third floor that way, beenMadison and Kaylee. Uh. They were
on the phone with I believe Kaylee'sex boyfriend trying to reach him. Several
phone calls up till about three o'clockin the morning. So they were killed
between three after three o'clock and beforeeleven to fifty eight when the police were

(24:51):
called. So and then you knowthe others were called before that, so
it's probably about eleven thirty. Yeah, eleven thirty in the morning, emp
right to an unconscious body. Butassuming that they call these other young men
or who I assumed they were men, but these other two people that came
to the house before the police.So let's say eleven thirty eleven fifteen,

(25:14):
we can just make a assumption.So you figure the murders had to have
occurred after three and before eleven inthe morning, so you're talking what eight
hours that window that the murders occurred. And the importance of that is that
and the corners will do their bestto determine the order in which these victims

(25:36):
died by blood splatter, you know, the going by the theory that he's
stabbing one person, getting their DNAon them, and then going to the
next victim, and there's DNA,then the first person's will be on the
on the second victim, but notthe second victim will be on the first,
and neither will the third or fourthbe on the first. Right,
So they should be able hopefully patternthe the order of victim Onloge victims,

(26:00):
and that will help in the analysisand the profiling of victimology. Who who
would this person have known? Whowould this person have known that wanted them
dead? Perhaps, you know,there's a lot of information By the way,
a couple of days ago, acouple of reports came out police departments
are not linking the Oregon one anymore. They're not at least that's what a

(26:23):
couple of reports that I just sawseven days ago. It said they were
looking at it four or five daysago and said that we're not. So
I don't I don't know if that'sconclusive or not, but just f y,
I yeah, and it's again.And this is just me based on
the information that I've seen and readand then studying it for the for the
purpose of being on another show acouple of days ago. I'm not convinced

(26:45):
it's a serial killer. If ifit was a serial killer, you need
have you have to have other casesto compare it to and and they'll be
doing that with BYICAP. The circumstancesin this particular case U lead me to
believe that this appeared to be atargeted attack. Targeted in the sense that
maybe one individual and the other threewere you know, collateral victims, or

(27:11):
this person had a vendetta or someanimasi towards that particular home, that party
home. Maybe it was someone whowas rejected at a party, you know,
how clique universities can be and universitycampuses, so this was known as
a party house. Part of theproblem is trying to identify who had access
to the home, ingress and negress, because, as I understand it from

(27:33):
open Source, the first floor doorwhich actually opens to the front of the
house right, which would have exposedthe killer much more so, it appears
that he didn't come through that door, which had a cipher lock, you
know, like a combination lock thateverybody in the town knew. Evidently they
partied at that house. The secondfloor was a sliding glass door. It

(27:57):
wasn't locked, Evidently there was noforced entry. The other thing that's interesting
about the target attack is there wasno sign of sexual abuse or rape.
The dog, interestingly enough, didnot alert on the intruder, at least
there's no report that the dog barkedor tried to wake anyone up, and

(28:19):
he also wasn't hurt. The dogwas not hurt, which is interesting.
I don't know what type of dogit was, or is this This individual
seemed to know the layout of thehome, whether he started the second floor
and then went up to the thirdfloor, or went to the third floor
directly. That would be telling,and that could be determined I believe by

(28:42):
the blood trail from the from thethe subject he kills the two people upstairs,
there's probably blood coming down that theycould identify that would show his pattern
of travel. If he kills thepeople on the second or then goes up,
then there may only be blood comingback down instead of up and down.

(29:03):
So that would be something that thepolice are going to be looking at
to determine the order in which thesevictims might have died. There was no
one bound or gaged, at leastreported by a police and you're right your
earlier comment. There could be someevidence that they're just not sharing with the
public. But it doesn't appear thatthis killer took his time, you know,

(29:26):
to torture, gag bound these individuals. It looked like he went in
with a purpose, kill these peopleand then get out as quickly as possible.
And I have talked to others andit is possible that he killed the
people, you know, the womenat the third floor woke up, the
two on the second floor on hisway back down. A female Zanna may

(29:47):
she seemed to have some defensive wounds. Maybe she woke up, couldn't get
Ethan up because he was killed inthe bed. She died, I believe
outside the bedroom from what I've read. So if that's the case, maybe
he artled her, had to killher, then went and killed him and
then simply thought, you know what, I got to get out of the
house before I get caught and nevergot to the first floor. But no

(30:10):
one was bound, nothing was stolen. So you and I have talked about
a motive, right, It's oneof the things that we look at,
you know, in the behavioral scienceunit, is what was the motive?
And we use a taxonomy categories calledPEPs. PEP stands as you know,
for personal economic power, or politicaland social. So we can ask ourselves,

(30:33):
is there any sign that he committedthis act for the group, you
know, on behalf of a gangor some other kind of social group.
It doesn't appear to be then appearto be any kind of satanic cult or
anything like that. We can ruleout that he did it on behalf of
a group a social group. Didhe appear to do this based on power
or some political statement? Doesn't appearto be that either. Did he take

(30:57):
anything of value? The police arenot reporting any robbery, any money being
stolen, anything like that, Sothat leads personal and I think that the
evidence points to the fact that thisperson either had a personal vendetta or was,
as we mentioned earlier, a personon some kind of psychothropic drug or

(31:19):
alcohol induced stupor that led them tothe horrendous, heenous crime of killing these
four people. But critical to thisand this I want to hear your opinion,
but it's the order. When Iwas asked the other night, you

(31:40):
know, what's the question, Ianswered it. You know, the chronology,
the timeline is critically important because thattimeline will tell the police a lot
in terms of the possible victimology.You know, there's a show, an
old show on TV called forty eighthours and murder cases. In all cases

(32:01):
involving murder, the first forty eighthours is critically important. Most murders are
committed by people that knew the victim. In this case, there are four
victims. So the police have done, I think a very good job of
trying to identify those people closest tothe victims at the time of the murder,

(32:22):
and with each passing day they expandthat to associates and to possible you
know, acquaintances that may have someinvolvement in this. They have a lot
of evidence, like I said,four thousand pictures at the crime scene alone.
They got blood. They've got tolook at the blood splatter. They've
got to look at the victims wounds, they've got to look at DNA.

(32:47):
They have a lot of work todo, possibly leading them to the individual
that was responsible for this. Soit's a tragedy any way you look at
it, and there's not a wholelot left to discuss in terms of the
facts, because it just isn't awhole lot to look at. No.

(33:07):
I mean, I'll just throw acouple of things, and regardless to the
theories of things to think about outthere. One, as Andy mentioned,
it could be somebody who's got avendetta. It could be a vendetta against
all four. It could be agood vendetta against two of them, like
Andy was saying. It could alsobe a combination of the vendetta plus drug
use. I hate to say,because I know some people are going to

(33:30):
misconstrue this, but the majority ofpeople with schizophrenia are not violent, So
I'm gonna preface it first. However, if this kind of a case,
it'd be interesting to see because ofthe age group. That's usually the timeframe
that you start getting schizophrenia. Aggressiaaggression goes up and people with schizophrenia between
eighteen and twenty five. So ifyou do become violent, that's usually the

(33:52):
area is the time zone that you'relooking at, age wise. Second,
if it is it could be apsychotic so that happened, which could explain
the ferocity of the killing. Theviolence that happened. It could be induced
by additional substances that could increase thesusceptibility to psychosis, which is another factor.

(34:16):
So if he does, if theperson does have schizophrenia and they're taking
substances, that could have heightened everythingthat could have happened. There's a lot
of variables, folks, But I'mjust throwing things out there because the way
the crime is being described to me, not by Andy, but by the
open source had by whatever Andy's sayingas well, it definitely seems somethings off
here. This person's definitely got alot of anger. Whether it's targeted how

(34:43):
do I phrase this, targeted realisticallyor targeted delusionally? How I explained that
is they felt slighted discriminated against,marginalized, whatever it is by this group,
or it's a psychosis or delusion likeHinckley and Foster and Reagan, where
they think something is happening and thesepeople are picking on them and nothing's going

(35:06):
on at all, but they includedthose are good points. You know my
feeling at this time. And again, you know, when you do a
proper analysis of behavior quote unquote profile, you have a lot more data points
than what we have at our avengage. But based on what I think what
I see, I think that thiswas a is a young male twenty to

(35:31):
twenty mid twenties who is on thecampus, knew these victims, possibly went
to school with these victims, perhapseven attempted to date one of the two
victims one of the three women thatwere victims. This is an individual who
has excessive anger, anger impulse,probably using some type of drug. I

(35:55):
don't know if it's a psychothropic,but we alcohol and cannabis. This is
an individual who more than likely isa hunter or R O T C.
Student. The type of knife usedand as someone who has used knife a

(36:15):
knife before it probably skinning animals,hunting, not I'm not suggesting you know,
in any kind of psycho psychotic way. But but somebody who feels comfortably
using the knife, and probably forpersonal skills too, I guess as well.
Yeah, so yeah, absolutely,And this is somebody who has had

(36:36):
a hard time maintaining relationships with otherpeople and uh is you know, just
filled with rage and anger. Thatthat would be my assessment at this point
that the whole process is deductive.So they will have a number of suspects
and they will whittle that down tothose that that are more the most likely

(36:57):
involved. I just have two morequestions before up any talk about cameras.
I don't know what that part ofthe town has. That's a great question.
So here's how that works. Youknow, it's sort of like the
rock and pebble in the pond effect. Right, So you start at the
crime scene and you look for evidence, forensic evidence, including cameras, so
CCTV cameras around the house. Right, Is there a canary or is there

(37:22):
a ring anything that might have recorded? So police are not sharing that if
there is, but they'll look atthat first. Then then they'll go out
to the neighborhood. In a neighborhoodthat size, I think there was apartments
very close by, so they'll lookat those cameras. They'll do a canvas
of the neighborhood and they'll look atthat, and then they'll as they build
that timeline of activities the food truckand others. I think they released some

(37:44):
CCTV footage showing the young ladies atthe food truck, So they'll look at
their at the timeline and they'll goback to at least the time that they
were at the sorority house and theand the club, because they know they're
all live there and they were engagingin other people, So it is possible
that somebody followed them back home fromeither the club that they two women were

(38:05):
at, and they'll do extensive investigationof that club and the videotape of that
club, and that's going to taketime, by the way, and try
to find out if there's anybody thatengage those young ladies while they were at
that nightclub. The same thing istrue at the sorority house. My guess
is they're focusing on the two youngladies that were Kaylee and and Madison.

(38:29):
They were at the nightclub, theyprobably engaged in. You know, they're
very attractive women, so they probablyengaged with a number of individuals and those
individuals may then become persons of interest. There is an ROTC program on that
campus. The military does use ak bar type knife, so but my
thinking is, you know, huntersuse that same kind of knife to skin

(38:52):
deer, and that's that would bemy supposition at this point based on the
information that's been released. This isa male, young male in his twenties.
There's a high risk behavior going intoa home with just a knife where
there are multiple occupants in the middleof the night. In fact, that
would kill at least one individual.And yeah, so I think this person's

(39:16):
still on campus, and that's whyperhaps the police thinking second thinking about you
know, releasing the information about beingtargeted. They want to be also responsible.
They don't want to say, hey, there's nothing to worry about,
and then they end up with anothermurder. I guess my last question is
you kind of alluded to it earlierthat do you think the perpetrator is still

(39:36):
around town? Yeah, you stillthink that, then? I still do.
Yeah, I still do. Ithink that person's you know, hiding,
playing sight and and hopefully does notstrike again. But if this is
a serial killer, case, andI'm not suggesting it is as I've cleterally
said, I think this was atargeted a fact. But if it is

(39:57):
a serial killer, then then they'regoing to be compulse to do this again.
And if it's if it's based onthe history and science of disorganized serial
killer, he will strike it locally. Disorganized serial killers don't travel as opposed
to the organized serotos, so typicallythey don't. So this seems like you

(40:20):
know it to me, it seemslike a target attack. But the police
have to open both theories until theyhave more evidence pointing them in the proper
direction. And just to kind ofgive you some information, folks to the
town. I think Moscow has apopulation of twenty five thousand. I believe
the University of Idaho has got aboutsix about twelve thousand people. Yeah,

(40:44):
so not huge because I'm assuming outof that twelve thousand it's probably about sixty
percent female, maybe seventies. You'vegot about four or five thousand males suspects
there, and then you go tothe population of the city, probably got
another eight thousand males, probably goingto be some overlaps, it's probably going
to be about ten thousand. Citymight even be from that place. And

(41:06):
when I say local, local,to the to the effect that if this
is a young man at college,he's you know, local during the school
year and may in fact not belocal after. They may be going to
make travel wherever he's from. Uh, And I say he it's it's not
absolute that it was a he.Neither is it absolute that it was only
one It appears at only one perpetrator. That then they would know that by

(41:29):
you know, again, bloodprints forhands or feet, and they could tell
whether there's multiple subjects, But there'sbeen nothing released on that. So I'm
I'm going to work off the assumptionthere's only one person, and again over
the assumption that that they're local atleast through the school year. And to

(41:50):
me, this is not a judgmentcall at all in the law enforcement.
It's just remarkable. It's been overtwo weeks for such a heinous crime.
Just you don't see them that oftenhappened like this. Yes and no,
I mean I've worked some of thesetypes of cases, you know, that
go cold quickly when there's not aclear association. Most murders are even crimes

(42:13):
of passion as this has been described. But it may not be. But
in those cases, you have aclear correlation between the victim and the and
the perpetrator. You don't seem tohave that clear connection in this case.
The people that closest to the victimshave been quote unquote cleared at this time,
so that's you know, at thistime those individuals for the former boyfriend

(42:37):
and the driver. I don't thinkit was Uber, but whatever driver that
was service, that was the foodtruck guy. They've all said, huh,
it was it snowing. I wonderif that's going to mess up the
footprints leading out of the house.There's no way he's getting out of that
house without footprints walking out of thathouse. So I wonner again, it's

(42:59):
gotta be covered in blood. Yeah, so there's there, there has to
be some. Yeah, they Iknow they took the three dumpsters look through
that didn't find evidence that they're they'rereleasing anyway. Then they just yesterday and
this was a big you know,again, I'm not second guessing the police.
I think they're doing a fine jobwith the resources they have in the
ton. But they took the fivecars. There were five cars out in

(43:22):
front, and I don't know whyit took the number of days it did
before they could secure those vehicles.But they'll be looking through those vehicles for
evidence as well. I'll tell youwhether it's you know, the bombing case
you and I have talked about inthe past, or the Kerry loss In
case which we've talked about in thepast, and other very difficult cases that
have resolved themselves. Uh. TheAtlanta murders Williams was well, they they

(43:47):
you know, it was months andmonths and this was a serial killer and
they found the carpet fibers that ledthem to the conviction. Uh. It
will be a break like that inthis case. Uh, that the hard
work will pay off that the locals, the state, and the FEDS are
doing. I can tell you thisfrom personal experience. There are a lot

(44:09):
of tireless days and long nights thatare being worked since the middle of November
to resolved this case for those victimsand their families and the community. And
so I again, I wish nothingbut the best for those that have been
affected by this heinous crime and thepolice that are working diligently to resolve it.

(44:32):
Wouldn't be great if the correct individualjust you know, turned themselves in,
but that's not how it happens inthese cases. Through hard work,
they'll find the individual and the evidencewill tie them to the crime scene.
That's good points. I think we'llwrap up on that great insight again,
Andy like always my friend. Again, folks, go to be Hero Science
Unit LLC dot com check out morewhat Andy's up to. I think you

(44:55):
know I want to plug. Ido have a couple of plugs. I
want to plug our podcast Inside theCriminal's Mind, which they can find on
multiple platforms from Spotify to Apple toall the other ones you put it on.
But the other one which we needto get back and do is the
Psychology of Romance. Getting a lotof good reviews on the Psychology of Romance,

(45:20):
and I want to get back todo I have a couple other ideas
for that one. So it's niceto be back from Abu Dhabi and I'm
looking forward to the Christmas season.I wish you the best of holidays and
Marrius to Christmas and to all ourloyal fans out there. Spread the news
that doctor Carlos and Andy are back, and I'm glad for it. Have

(45:43):
a great holiday. I'm sure I'mtalking for the holidays, and again I'm
sure I want you to feel betterfirst. Yeah, thank you, Thank
you everyone for listening. You knowwhat to do. Make sure to share
a subscribe, hit that like button. We'll talk to you all later.
Bye, Carlos, talk to youlater.