FBI PROFILER LOOKS AT THE SERIAL KILLER KNOWN AS THE DOODLER

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze
some of the most notorious criminal cases with psychology and
criminology combined. Here's your host.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome back everyone.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome back, Annie, Hi, Carlos. How you doing great.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
It's good to have you back.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
My friend and I. You've been excited.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
It's fine. We spring here in New York. Sun is out,
the trees have leaves on them. I caught about a
dozen fish yesterday afternoons, so yes, life is good on
the lake.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yes, you guys will be unmasking soon.

Speaker 4 (00:50):
Well, we actually everywhere except schools, they've accepted the CDC guidelines.
So if you've if you're vaccinated, or if you lie
really good about being vaccinated, I guess you don't have
to wear a mask. I don't know how they're going
to regulate that, but supposedly, if you've been vaccinated in
the state of New York, you do not have to
wear a mask. So I guess the numbers of people

(01:12):
who say their vaccine they are going to shoot way
up in the next couple of days.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I got the bunny feeling.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
You're right.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
That's what we're gonna do today is try to unmask
this case. We're going to be looking at today the Doodler.
So this is a fascinating case.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Folks.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Before we get started, make sure to share a subscribe
hit that like.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Button, leave us the comments.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
All right, we're going to focus on cold cases, and
oftentimes cold cases are committed by strangers, make them very difficult,
as we've said in previous episodes to investigate, and oftentimes
there are serial killers. In this particular case, the Doodler

(01:50):
is a serial suspected serial killer in northern California, San
Francisco area dating back to the mid seventies. What's interesting
about this case is the Doodler a couple things his race.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
He's black.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
He's a black male, suspected black male, which is unusual
for serial killers. We have seen some in the past,
but they're generally speaking a white male. This guy also
had the nickname the Black Doudler because.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Of his race.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
He's suspected of killing anywhere from five to sixteen people.
Three people survived, so you know, that's another misnomer that
the serial killer kills all of their victims.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
They kill most of the victims, for sure, but there
are several.

Speaker 4 (02:36):
Cases where survivors have outed have identified now to the
sori killer, and then John Wayne Gacy's case, there were examples,
plenty of examples of him having sex with men and
deciding not to kill him, which is fairly interesting. So
it's the you know, sory killer doesn't kill every one,
and that they they come across, there's a high compulsion need. Yeah,

(03:01):
well there's a high compulsion and need among serial killers
to control their victims. And so if in John Wayne
Gacy's case, not to get sidetracked, he said that he
killed those individuals who threatened him in some manner. They're
not overtly threatened him, but either we're going to out
him out or he felt uncomfortable with And I think
is anybody that showed any kind of resistance. He had

(03:23):
this compulsion and need common among serial killers to control
that victim, and in most cases, serial killers want that
control to the point of death.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
In this particularly, I think the assible I think they're
also there. I know there are susceptible to hostile attribution
bias where to do something or just they it's innocent,
but they take it as being a threat, being intentionally
trying to harm them or afflict some kind of pain,
when in fact there has nothing to do with it.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
Right, Yeah, they misinterpret social cues and that being one
of them, and they'll often resort to violence UH to
resolve resolve the co This case is interesting from a
number of aspects of the race of the the suspect
is one, but another thing is the name, you know,
the doodler. And again this is quite often and oftentimes

(04:13):
these are not just the police that will give these
uh these names or catch these names to these unsolved murders.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Oftentimes it's the media as well.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
And some examples of that would be Son of Sam
killer in New York, Sam berkolitz U, Zodiac killer in California,
and the Green River killer are some examples. So it's
it's not uncommon for these unsolved murders, especially where there's
multiple UH cases UH and an unknown subject, for there

(04:42):
to be a name attached to it.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
In this particular case, it's the Doodler.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
What's interesting about the name is the survivors indicated that
this individual doodled through an artistic rendition of the victim
at a gay bar and then he used this caricature,
this drawing to engender trust, to build empathy and trust

(05:08):
with the victim, and then lure them to a place
where he could then kill them. What's interesting beyond mat
m O that mos on Upper ende brand I was
that he would then stab these victims multiple times front
and back. And we're going to talk about some of
that in terms of not just victimology, but the actual

(05:28):
criminal behaviors. He was known, as I mentioned, the Black Dudelerk.
He's an unidentified killer at this point, committed at least
sixteen murders and three assaults in the San Francisco area,
and we're talking some time ago. January nineteen seventy four
was the first known victim through September nineteen seventy five.

(05:50):
When he was active in the San Francisco Bay area,
he would stock his victims at bars, gay bars in
the neighborhood. He would select the victim, dance and eat
after sketching them in a portrait, oftentimes on.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
A on a cocktail napkin.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
Uh So, here's a guy who is you know, a predator,
true predator in a gay bar. You can imagine he's
looking for someone that he is attracted to and or
believes is is susceptible to his his ploy Even then
sketch that individual, go to that individual, start up a conversation,

(06:27):
perhaps dance a little bit, and then suggests that they
go someplace quieter, which these victims did. Now we don't
know the victims who didn't, but we know the ones
who did and ended up dead. A lot of a
lot of publicity publicity in the gay community during this time,
but here's a problem outside the gay community. He got
very little public attention. This was the same time frame

(06:51):
that the Zodiac Killer was active in the area, but
got very little public uh you know, notoriety for that
time compared to the Zodiac Killer.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
One of the.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
Commonalities all the victims were white male. The subject is
believed to be black male, all white male, all gay,
or at least bisexual. They suffered similar injuries, including stab
wounds to the upper back, chests of the front and back.
So when we're looking at potential signature, you don't have

(07:26):
to stab somebody both in the front and the back.
That may be less about killing and more about satisfying
the psychological and emotional needs of the perpetrator, which is
as I'm gonna mention, some distinctions between mo and signatures.
It's believed that the Doodler killed as I mentioned, up
to sixteen people. The police their arized that the victims

(07:50):
all died after meeting the subject near the locations where
the bodies were recovered. Not all bodies were killed and
left there. We're going to talk about that as well.
Some of the bodies were killed and then repositioned on
beaches and or lakeshore. So that's fairly interesting and may
indicate a potential signature of the perpetrator or define the

(08:14):
crime scene as one category another which I'll get into
in just a moment. All of the victims were between
nineteen and twenty five. I'm sorry, the subject was between
nineteen and twenty five. All the victims were between twenty
and up to sixty years old, so a broad range
of victimology here. So I'm gonna give some basics to

(08:36):
the listeners of criminal profile in our behavioral analysis really
as process, and this comes from one of my mentors,
Roy Hazelwood, who's since passed, the late Great Roy Hazelwood.
He classified three types of crime scenes, the organized crime scene,
the disorganized crime scene, and what would be referred to

(08:58):
as the mixed crime scene where you're linking these killers together.
It's fairly Uh, important to understand, you know, what is
their their means of operation, their mo the method in
which they kill their victims.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
But it's also.

Speaker 4 (09:15):
Important to see if they leave any trace, uh, signatures,
you know things.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Again it don't really require.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
Or needed for the killing, but satisfy the emotional or
psychological needs of the of the perpetrator.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (09:30):
It's also interesting to look at the crime scene and
uh and determine whether or not it's instrumental violence or
or emotional violence. Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, a question.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, quick question. Is there a difference between signatures and trophies.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Well, a trophy can be a signature. Yeah, so uh
oftentimes you know, it's it's a signature. Is anything that
is not needed for the crime itself, but satisfies the the.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Emotional psychological need of the subject.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
So oftentimes a somebody like Ted Kaczynski, I'm sorry, Ted
Bundy would would take a trophy something that they could
then use to relive the crime scene.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Uh and and oftentimes use as.

Speaker 4 (10:15):
A toy for their sexual pleasure after the after the murder.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
So, yes, a a.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
Serial killer's use of a souvenir can be described as
part of a signature. So the I was mentioned the
organized and disorganized crime scene. The distinct distinction between those
two is really instrumental crime, which has a purpose, but
the killing itself is not necessarily that purpose. So organized

(10:45):
crime scenes are or crimes are pre planned. There's usually
little evidence forensically because the portrayer the subject is very
careful about the crime scene itself, will clean up at
of the crime scene. In many cases, they'll actually position
as part of their signature, maybe position the the UH

(11:06):
the bodies. Danny Rawlins was a guy who would do that.
He would decapitate the victims and then position their bodies
in UH in an organized way. There's, as I mentioned
there their instrumental violent acts, whereas a disorganized crime scene
is one where the violence is a result of overwhelming compulsion, emotion,

(11:30):
or chaos. So there's often you know, a lot of
blood and a lot of DNA evidence at a disorganized
crime scene.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
UH.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
The bodies are often left right where the crime occurred.
In a disorganized crime scene. You could be a serial
killer and be and have a disorganized crime scene or
an organized crime scene. Example, I gave you Danny Rowlings,
but an example of a disorganized crime scene serial killer
would be Jack the Ripper, who would often attack women
in the middle of the night, uh, disembowel them, you know,

(11:59):
slash them up, and then leave their bodies at the scene.
Obviously a lot of blood evidence in those types of cases.
And they're not to be confused with three types.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
Oh.

Speaker 4 (12:11):
The third type, by the way, is a mixed organized
and disorganized. Oftentimes you'll see this in a serial killer
who's kind of evolving or transitioning from a disorganized you know,
like a Jack the Ripper. But then is after a
victim or two victims or three victims may start becoming
more careful, if you will, in terms of the way

(12:33):
that they leave the crime scene and they'll clean up
any evidence that that might tie it back the crime
back to them. And then there's three types of crime dispositions,
which is not to be confused with the crime scenes.
Crimes where the victims approached by the killer. So in
this case, you know, so the victim approaches the killer

(12:55):
by coming to their helm. Good case point would be
John Wayne Gacy where he would lure victims to his home.
He would then use what he called the rope trick,
using handcuffs to first handcuff be the victim, telling them
that it was a parlor trick he used as a clowent.

(13:15):
Once he had them handcuffed, he would put a rope
around their neck and using the rope trick, would strangle
him to death. He would then bury them in his
crawl space. Thirty three victims. I believe memory served so
John Wayne Gacy. People would come to his to his home.
Another type would be Ted Bundy, and Ted Bundy would
often attack the victims whether he you know, was on

(13:37):
a running path and I believe it was Colorado or
in Florida where he attacked nurses in.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
A in a home.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
He would often attack the victims where they were, bludgeon
them to death, and then leave the victims where they lied.
The third type of crime disposition is where the victim's
body was disposed of, like the case with the doodler.
In this particular case, he would often lure the victim
to a spot where he killed them, stabbed them multiple

(14:06):
times in the front and the back of their body,
and then take the body and dump the body elsewhere.
So you have three different types of crime dispositions, and
serial killers often leave an organized crime scene with that
are often their psychopathic. Obviously, these these individuals are psychopathic.
They show no remorse. However, they do have oftentimes an

(14:30):
above average intelligence. Ted Bundy being an example of that.
I mean, this guy went to law school and was
also very attractive, you know, society standards, and that was
That's also very common among these types of killers, because
think of them as a spider luring a victim to
their web and then being able to control that victim

(14:51):
till their death. What's interesting if you look at serial
killers and again the Evil Minds research I'll give a
quick plug the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, where they studied
serial killers. They found that these individuals not only had
you know, above average intelligence, often had or often were attractive.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
They often in other relationships. They could maintain a relationship
outside of their their killing zone, if you will, and
seemed somewhat normal, very normal actually to the outside world.
Dennis Raider married had children. John Wayne Gacy married twice
with children. Ted Bundy was for all intents and purposes,

(15:34):
was married, lived with a woman for a number of years,
and she had a child. They didn't attack these individuals.

Speaker 4 (15:39):
They were able to live these double lives and from
the outside looked fairly normal and in some cases had
positions jobs that gave them some authority, including Dennis Rader,
who was you know, was a constant.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yes, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
You know, I heard some of the things about violent
fantasy's how does that play a role here and how
they pick victims?

Speaker 4 (16:03):
Well, you know, it's it's often driven by sado masochistic
sexual fantasy. Now, whether or not the compulsion is about
sex or uh, that that is one of the things
that that is a component of the act is you know,
I think individualistic. You'd have to look at each case separately.

(16:24):
But let's say the doodler, the doodler uh targeted gay mail.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (16:29):
In many in some cases actually several cases, the victim
was closed. There was no apparent act, you know, homosexual act.
So it may just be in that case and we
don't we don't know the person yet. We have a subject,
but no one's been tried in this case. But speculation
is that he he may just disliked homosexuals. Now, where

(16:51):
did that come from? It could have been that he was,
you know, a number of theories molested as a child, UH,
could be a number of reasons. But in other cases,
there's a clear you know, part of the of the
of the crime is clearly uh for sato masochistic reasons.
And the approtrator years later would draw. And we're going

(17:14):
to get into the artistic side, but they would draw
and uh and sato masochistic renderings of the victims or
the crime scenes. People like Keith Jessperson is a good
example of that, and Charles Nig is another good example
of that.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
So it be uh. I'll come back to this point.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
But if if our audience wants to look at that,
they can google serial killer artists and they'll be shocked
at at two things. One, actually, some of these people
actually had some good artistic talent uh. But secondly, the
sato masochistic images that you know Dannie Rawlins for example, UH.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Is troubling to say the least. So yeah, I think
that you know, there is there is.

Speaker 4 (17:58):
That point where the individuals can be driven by sado
masochistic sexual fantasies or compulsions. But in my opinion and
in my in my experience is that it's often about
the control and less about the sex, and it's sort
of a vehicle.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Sex is a.

Speaker 4 (18:19):
Vehicle to which they can get the satisfaction of actually
seeing a victim die. And another another very common UH
occurrence among these serial killers is the means of death
is very close and personal. It's either through strangulation, one
force trauma, or in this particular case, stabbing. You see

(18:43):
very you know, Son of Sam, shooting victims with guns
is extremely rare where you have these.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Types of serokillers.

Speaker 4 (18:52):
So we talked about, you know, the the types of
seriokillers and the fact that they are often in dysfunctional
relationships with as John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, Dennis Raider.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
But they're very skilled at feigning empathy.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
They're not empaths per se, but they can feign that empathy,
so they lure that victim that sort of Spider and
UH and fly kind of kind of model. I'm gonna
talk briefly and we're gonna talk about it more in
a future episode, Carlos. But there's some distinctions between modus

(19:27):
operandi or m O, you know, as you see in
the cop shows, UH and as you mentioned earlier, signatures
staging and posing am O is a method of killing.
So if you stab somebody over and over, that's your
method of killing them.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
So that's your mo O.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
And if you have a pattern of these types of stabs,
then you then that's that's the mode or the mode
of killing.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
He was stabbing people, and if you you.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
Can actually connect that to various crimes, there's a difference
between the stabbing of someone and then maybe a pattern
of stabbing. The pattern of stabbing somebody which isn't necessary
for the killing, becomes the killer's signature. So if I
were stabbing people in the chest and making a smiley face,
for example, or in this particular case, perhaps his signature

(20:16):
is the fact that the victims were stabbed in the
front and the back, not necessary for death, but it
may be something that gives that subject to the criminal
release emotionally, psychologically, or even sexually. So you can see
these repeated behaviors in these crime scenes that are in

(20:39):
fact a signature, and that's the distinction. So if the
audience just wants a simple distinction between m and signature,
the mo is required for the criminal act the murders,
the signature is not. It satisfies the emotional, psychological, or
perhaps sexual wants or needs of the subject, and the

(21:01):
signature of the doodler perhaps is the fact that he stabs.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
Him repeatedly, both in the front and the back.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
Some might argue that, you know, another signature would be
that you know he drew the victims, you know, a
character of the victims to lure them to their death.
I see that as part of them, as part of
his means of operating some of the victims real quick.
Gerald Kavanaugh was a victim. He was a Canadian American.

(21:29):
It is interesting just coincidence, I think, being it was
in San Francisco, but there were a couple that were
immigrants in this particular case, Canadian American immigrant. He was
the first victim. He was forty nine years old at
the time that he was killed. Here's a case where
he was fully clothed when he was found lying face
up at the beach in San Francisco. He had died

(21:52):
hours before being found, and it was determined that he
was conscious at the time that he was killed because
there were some defensive wounds on his body. He was
known as John Doe seven because it took some time
for him to be identified as he was a single
man and didn't really know a lot of people against.

(22:14):
The second victim was a guy named Jay Stevens. Joseph
Stevens went by j and he was killed in nineteen
seventy four dressed as a woman.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
He was a.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
I guess transvestite would be the best way to describe him.
He was walking along Spreckles Lake or it was also
suspected that he was lured to Speckle's Break Lake by
the killer. And he was employed as a female impersonator
and comedian. And and he he was a second victim.

(22:45):
Other victims included a German American immigrant. He was discovered
by woman who was walking her dog. His death was
more violent than others. That was the interesting part of
his death. It appears that he fought back considerably in
that or the subject, so he slashed his throat several
times in addition to repeatedly stabbing him both in the

(23:06):
front and back. There's another person who was found fully
clothed right, So again very little evidence of sexual deviance
or perversions and just a lot of anger. What's interesting
about this case This person was married, but they did

(23:26):
find makeup tubes and his on his person, so he
may have been gay and dressed, you know, in drag
while he was cruising. And then the subject found him
and killed him a couple others. Frederick Kappan was thirty
two years of age and he was stabbed. Like the
other victims, both front and backs are very common. Maybe

(23:48):
that signature that we were talking about.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
He died in did he stab him in the in
the buttocks and sometimes that's one of the areas that
they usually start targeting for sexual reasons.

Speaker 4 (23:58):
Yeah, you know, the growing and the butt docks, as
you mentioned it would it would be would I'd be
curious to find out. But the open source information, it
might be the police aren't giving that out because that's
more specificity that would enable them to solve the case.
So it just has front and back of the body

(24:19):
from eater that you can find online. But that would
be something that the investigators would be interested if there's
a pattern, as I mentioned earlier, a smiley face on
the chest or you know. Another example of a signature
would be if post mortem that the killer cut off
an organ, you know, say male organ or female their
cases where these killers their signature is they cut off

(24:43):
you know, part of the breast of the female victims.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
So those those.

Speaker 4 (24:48):
Are things that you know, certainly the police would be
careful to share as they investigate their cases. So in
this case, Frederick Kappan thirty two years old, discovered in
nineteen seventy five and San Cisco stabbed like the other victims, died,
but he died from a strike to.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
His a order his heart, so stabbed in the front
and back.

Speaker 4 (25:09):
He was moved twenty feet from where the where the
violence occurred. So you know, here's a case where the
crime scene was a little different than some of the others.
And then there was a guy named Harold Goldberg. He
was sixty six Swedish American. So you have a German American,
you have a Canadian American, you have a Swedish American. Now,

(25:31):
whether or not he was looking for individuals perhaps with
an accent at these gate clubs, you know, don't know,
you can speculate, But here's a Swedish American. He was
found two weeks after his death in a park near
a lake, and very very similar to the others. The

(25:52):
only difference is he was older than the other victims
and his underwear had been taken by the killer. His
pants were run zip, so they it's believed that he
was the final victim of the sixteen that had been
tied to the Doodler. As I mentioned, the problem with
this particular case, or one of the issues with this

(26:14):
particular case, has been plagued by some investigative of flaws
and the frightened public and hesitation from some of the victims.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
There were three victims that.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
Got away, including a quote unquote well known entertainer. So
the police had a suspect back in nineteen seventy six.
They felt fairly confident about this particular suspect, but they
couldn't bring the case to fruition because the three people

(26:50):
that had escaped the criminal didn't want to testify, so
including a well known entertainer and a diploma that so
they did say in all cases that the doodler drew
caricatures on a piece of paper, and that's what led
to the nickname the Doodler. Surviving victims helped the police

(27:14):
with a sketch, so back in nineteen seventy six there
was a sketch that was issued, and more recently in
twenty nineteen, a new sketch with age composition was put
out to the public. The nineteen seventy six suspect appeared
to cooperate by all accounts, but the police have lost

(27:37):
contract contact with this individual and now they're looking for
him again, the police in current So let's talk about
cold case.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
For a little bit.

Speaker 4 (27:46):
So this case has gone on now for do the
math for me, like thirty five almost forty years, seventy
five forty five years, forty five years.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Actually, you know what it's interesting is, as you mentioned,
there was a it was just solved. It was about
thirty six years ago. Yeah, and they found it because
they did a DNA check and with the investigation, I
guess one of the investigators thought it reminded him of
one of his cases and then it ended up being
an inmate who had murdered somebody in nineteen eighty eight.

(28:18):
But the cold case was in nineteen eighty seven cold case,
and yeah, they were able to connect both of them.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Well, what's interesting, and going back to the organized disorganized
crime scene, there have been some cases where it's mixed
and when they solved the case, they found out that
there were two killers, not one, that were connected and
that they had two different mos and or two different

(28:44):
signatures that you know what, and then that you know,
led some complications to the case. In this particular case
in nineteen seventy seven, the police had a pair of
men from Redona Beach, California. They were arrested in Riverside County. Uh,
and they questioned them. They suspected them of approximately twenty

(29:04):
eight murders, and but they couldn't they couldn't tie these
cases to these two, right, So you could.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
Have, and I think that's an important point. You could
have uh, you.

Speaker 4 (29:16):
Know, organized and disorganized or mixed crime scenes because you
have two different killers that use different motives, and or
have two different killers who have two distinctive signatures, but
they're working together. Lucasen, was it O'Toole or two serial
killers that work together?

Speaker 3 (29:36):
Several of them?

Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, yeah, you very No.

Speaker 4 (29:40):
You often have like an inadequate personality disorder with a
borderline personality disorder with you know, psychopathy.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
And they they.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Get people in England the other day, Yeah, because they
were upset that she was going to get to the
vacccene in England. She was obviously in life, she's sentenced
to life, but that her and her husband were killing
I think it was young women.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
Sometimes you'll have somebody who's truly mental illness is call
foia do and you'll have one person who's you know,
has mental illness and then the other person is is
a borderline and looking to cling.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
To somebody and uh and that's how they they.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
You know, have like there's a uh Frankenstein, who's the
doctor Frankenstein and Igor, you know, so you have the
pairing of the two and Igor is like the henchman.
All right, so very quickly, this is where this case is.
I mean, this is a cold case for sure forty
five years old. Right, so they as I mentioned, new

(30:39):
emerging technologies and this is going to be a reoccurring
theme in our shows.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Right.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
So with cold cases, you you go back to square one.
And with square one, there's a couple of things in
this particular case. One, Uh, there was a telephone call
call and so there was a witness who contacted the
nine to one one dispatch, sure forty five years ago
and he said that, you know, this person has been killed,

(31:07):
but didn't leave his name or anything, and then let
the scene that this is something that the police are
interested in. They've actually reissued the audio of the nine
to one one call asking the public to help identify
through the voice. They've used voice analysis and rendering to
try to determine if you know, accent and region. So

(31:27):
they'd like to talk to this individual as a person
of interest. That placed this nine to one one call.
So that's one example. Well another I mentioned they had
a sketch back in the mid seventies of the subject.
Well now they've used new technology to depict age progression
technology to depict what this person would look like at

(31:48):
age sixty three to sixty nine.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
So that is now you can find that online.

Speaker 4 (31:52):
We don't have it, I don't think, but you can
go and do you know, Google doodle blur and you
can find the new side by side of what the
subject looked like in the mid seventies and what he
might look like in twenty twenty one. They have a suspect,
as I mentioned, and it may be the same guy
that they were looking at nineteen seventy six, so they're
looking for that person again. They also have DNA and

(32:17):
so they're looking at DNA. They've actual the police have
actually submitted to the lab. Now they're waiting for the results.
So it's not just the drawings that they have, but
they but they also have a DNA. One of the
try and true methods for all cold cases is a reward.
So the police have recently issued a one hundred thousand

(32:38):
dollars reward for anyone who can identify the suspected killer
based on the sketches. And then I guess the other
thing about cold cases that you know they benefit from
is publicity. Not just our show, but there's a podcast
out in a documentary about this unsolved case, and and

(33:00):
I think you're going to see more regenerated interest in
this case because of that kind of publicity from the
mainstream media. And then, as I mentioned, in twenty nineteen,
the police offered a one hundred thousand dollars reward looking
for anything that might help identify them. So, you know,
you have some eighty five thousand gay men in San

(33:22):
Francisco in nineteen seventy four seventy five. Many of these
men and women were closeted. They wanted to protect their
identity because it often would mean their job would be
in peril if they were out it. That's changed today,
and so particularly in this case where homosexuals were targeted,

(33:45):
I think that the break in the case will come
from that community. Somebody who might have been approached back
forty years ago and was reluctant to say something, including
the three people that were assaulted. Now after forty years,
maybe more willing to tell the police what they know
and what they saw, and perhaps that will lead to

(34:06):
justice in this particular case for the victims that we
talked about earlier.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
There's so much that's interesting as another DNA they're trying
to there's always creative ways. I know one individual was
caught a couple of weeks ago for another cold case
that was solved, and he was caught an airplane. Yeah,
the police followed him. They asked the way the stewardest
you give him a drink of water. That he did,
and then they took the cup. That's when they swabbed

(34:32):
the Yeah, the cup and that was the end of that.

Speaker 4 (34:35):
Well, in this case, the police said, look, we're not
against using ancestral DNA, so you know, they're going to
look at all the options that they have. They do
have some evidence from the crime scene. The difference was
in the way evidence was collected back in the mid
seventies too. One of the articles I read on this case,
it was a police officer lamenting the process for collection

(34:57):
of evidence at the time was to let everything the
air dry, so you know that some of the blood
evidence was no good, it wasn't preserved properly. And again,
you know, evidence recovery, forensic science have have grown exponentially
in forty five years, so you know that some of

(35:20):
the biometrics are still their fingerprints, you know, but even
fingerprints are much better now in terms of the enhancements and.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Digital uh digital technologies, so.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
That yeah, there's there's got to be something in these
number of cases, almost a dozen and a half of
victims here that there's got to be a mistake that
the bad guy made that the police can leverage and
uh and find justice for these families and these victims.
So you know, I hope that they continue to work
hard to solve this case.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
That's the great thing. And there's a lot of these
cold cases are being solved. As I mentioned, I do
another podcast called Cold Case Is Solved, So I wanted
to show the other side, and there's at least a
caser two a week, and yeah, great closure for the families.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
Well, it absolutely is.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
And I think when you look at the you know
number we talked about this in the previous podcast. One state,
which was Ohio. They have a database of one and
two unsolved murders.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
And that's just murders.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
That's not you know, assaults rates that haven't been solved.
That's just homicides.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
That's crazy stuff, folks. Again, if you want to support us,
make sure to share and subscribe. You want to check
out Andy, you can check out the rest of the
podcast here, you go to Behavioral Science Unit dot com
as well. You can also catch them on the playlist
over on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
The Doctor Carlos Crime met Work. You can see some
of the episodes there.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
You can also leave a comment for us and tell
us if you're interested in any cases you want us
to look at.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah, when you when you think about this, Carlos, there's
over two hundred fifty thousand unsolved homicides in the United States.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Good, we have plenty of shows.

Speaker 4 (37:07):
We have plenty of shows to choose from, unfortunately, and
we'd like to see some clearance of those records of
two hundred and fifty thousand.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Absolutely great stuff, folks. Again, thanks for listening, everybody, Thanks Andy.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
Thank you, Carlos. Have a great day.