HOW DOES SOCIAL MEDIA CHANGE THE TERRORIST STRATEGY

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze some of the most
notorious criminal cases with psychology and criminologycombined. Welcome everyone, I'm doctor Carlos
with my co host Andrew Bringle andwelcome Andy. Hey Carlos, How are

(00:28):
you today? Pretty well? Howare you, my friend? Well,
you know, I'm here in God'sCountry. I'll tell you it has been
the most beautiful weather of the lastweek and a half here in Upper New
York, Central New York. I'mlooking out at the lake right now.
It's got the eighty two greens,My wife and my daughter out on the

(00:49):
paddle board, and as soon aswe're done here, I'll be joining them
with a cold beer in my hands. Well, let's get started, get
you on the road. So we'regoing to do today is talk a little
bit about out social media and theimpact that's on terrorism before we get started.
To make sure, folks, ifyou want to support our podcasts,
to share and subscribe, We trulywould appreciate at least some comments too.

(01:11):
So I know FBI director Christopher Ray, you were not under him. I
think he left before he came on, but he made a comment at the
I don't know some conference somewhere anexclusive interview. Oh, it's an exclusive
innew with Wired, where he talksabout how social media has accelerated and changed
the landscape of modern terror threats.He says here quotes today including domestic terrorism

(01:37):
moves at the speed of social media. He talks about he was just before
the unniversary of the Okay, Oklahomabombing. Particularly troubling, he says,
is how once clear blurring between foreignterror movements like Al Qaeda or ISIS and
whatnot, and domestic terror groups motivatedby either white supremacy or the like of

(02:00):
the US government. Anti fascists weremonitoring very closely a trend that may be
starting to emerge, full of neoNazi actors here in the US or communicating
online with similar like minded individuals.But anyway, this is one of the
things that he was talking about,is how the landscape has changed. And
you've been in the business with theFBI for decades. Tell us about yours

(02:23):
on how social media has accelerated semesterterrorism. Well, I don't think it's
just the mesterrorism. I think socialmedia has had an impact on all forms
of terrorism, and it goes evenbeyond that. I think so. Media
has certainly impacted recent events within thelast couple of months as it related to

(02:43):
social protests, dealing with George Floydand another incident. You see it's impact
in the way that information is nowdistributed. Back in two thousand and nine
twenty ten, when I was teachingat the FBI Academy and we were looking
at informatic how information impacts human behaviorand influences that behavior. One of the

(03:05):
things we looked at was the useof social media to spread messaging, and
I use the term universal media.All it takes today is an individual with
an iPhone or any smartphone and aconnection to the Internet and they can literally
go live, as ABC, NBCand CBS were owned to do. And
by the way, did you knowlive coverage of news events was fairly recent.

(03:30):
It started in the mid to latesixties when they had satellites that enabled
a newscast go live. The TwoOlympics is an example of that and the
influence of live media being leveraged byterrorists. So the PLO used the live
coverage of the Munich Olympics in nineteenseventy two, knowing that since it was

(03:53):
live, they would have a capturedaudio lease and so when they went into
the the Athletes Residents in nineteen seventytwo new they knew that that event was
going to be covered live and infact a sports caster I think it was
Goudi to get his first name,but he ended up being the newscaster.

(04:15):
He was a sports caster, buthe got caught up in the events because
in fact, it was live,it was real, it was happening,
and this fact is not lost intoday's anarchists adjucated criminals, and so they
know that they can capture the newscast because they have the ability to go
live on social media. So yes, you know, director raised point is

(04:39):
well made, but I think it'sbroader than domestic terrorism. Certainly. I
know it changed the game for Isisyears ago. I mean they were able
to recruit off social media. They'reable to utilize YouTube and Twitter in a
capacity that we've never seen before.Is that read right? Oh? Absolutely.
There's a couple of reefs nurtures outof the University of Arkansas and Oklahoma

(05:04):
years ago, I want I wantto say probably twenty twelve. They're about
that. One of them's name isKelly Dampus, and they looked at the
number of day the domestic terrorists wouldtake from the time they started conceiving a
criminal act and the time it tookthem to actually carry it out. What
we call cradle the grave, right, So from the cradle to the grave,

(05:27):
how long does a NEVT take andthere days With average domestic terrorist act
took over a year, almost ayear and a half, about three hundred
and eighty days to conceptualize and thento actually execute. That has been shortened
a lot, because you're right,it's a medium. In the way information
has changed on the dark net andthrough facial or through social media, social

(05:51):
media sites like Facebook and Twitter,it's shortened that period of time considerably.
And the other I think we'll getinto in just a moment is the way
it's affected the structure of organizations.If we're going to talk a little bit
about you know, ELF and Alf, Earth Liberation Front, the Animal Liberation

(06:13):
Front, q on AN, Antifa, Annyhineus, Priesthood, the Army of
God. I mean, it goeson and on. There are a lot
of quote unquote terrorist organizations that reallyaren't organizations in the classic sense. They
are not hierarchical. You would behard pressed to find the leader of it,
and what they rely upon is anold white supremacist concept called leaderless resistance,

(06:39):
where they have the economy to actas a quote unquote lone wolf.
And these individuals, many of them, for example the Earth Liberation Front,
are home grown violences. By theFBI's definition, that means that they were
law biders and they were part ofour society, but they were influenced by
a social movement that began in anotherplace outside of the United States. In

(07:00):
this case, it started in Englandin the nineteen nineties, the Earth Liberation
Front, and then it wasn't untilthe two thousands that people from the Earth
Liberation Movement, this network based movementused leaderless resistance as lone wolfs and began
attacking places of business in the UnitedStates using a technique called monkey wrench Monkey

(07:25):
wrenchings here in the United States.Well, monkey wrenching is interesting because what
they want to do, and thisis something that has popularized by groups like
Shack the Stops Huntington Animal Cruelty,which also came out of England, and
their concept is let's attack the businesseswhere they hurt the most, and that's

(07:46):
what their economic seek. So EarthLiberation Front will use wrenching to go to
businesses, let's say a construction sitethat's clearing trees, and they will foul
the gasoline tanks of the equipment thatthey needed to cut down trees. They
will burn. They burned car lots, just burned a bunch of cars in

(08:07):
car lots. One of the biggestand most damaging events was in it was
a ski resort in Bail, Colorado, in late nineteen ninety ninety five ninety
six. Anyway, it costs twelvemillion dollars due to their damage that they
did in the fire at this skiresort in Bail. And the and these

(08:28):
Echo terrorists will use this concept ofmonkey wrenching, and in fact it's part
of their symbols. Their their symbolfor ELF is punky wrench and a stone
hammer, and it's the symbol ofEarth First, which is, you know,
the granddaddy of the Earth Liberation Front. So let me ask you this

(08:48):
now that we've known they're moving.I know, over in chaz we saw
what they call the Capitol Hill AutonomousZone. Folks. Also now I think
it's called chop actually be called anythinganymore. They're gone or leaving yeah,
they're being It's interesting because I watchedthem on Twitter, followed a lot of
the individuals, and you can tellthat they're you know, they're trying to

(09:09):
coordinate with other people, telling themwhat law enforcement is, where they're not
when they're going to meet together,which is kind of funny because they're doing
in an open source environment and theyreally you know that really high. Maybe
they're kidding as well in other formsthey know, but it's interesting that they
would even bother doing that. I'massuming trying to get more people to help

(09:33):
them out. Well, I'll tellyou something on that point that not only
do they communicate in and again,these are loose based groups and their relationships
among the members are often very loose. In other words, you'll use a
pseudonym instead of Carlos, you mayuse a nickname like I don't know,

(10:00):
bug eyes or you know, somethinglike that, but tree or leaf,
and so these people will will oftentimesnot know each other's true identity as they
plan their their their leadless resistant actionsor direct actions as they call them.
The other thing is there is evidencethat foreign nations adversaries of ours will leverage

(10:24):
intelligence assets to uh forward their goal, which is to disrupt and and disturb
our governance. So some of theseanarchiss quote unquote are in fact plants from
other nations that are trying to agitatepeople who commit these acts and cause the

(10:46):
kind of rice and dissensions that we'veseen happen around our country today. And
what do you think about what aresome of the legal ramifications? In other
words, what can the government dowhen they see these individuals coordinating and saying
things like well, we're going todestroy this property, We're going to take
over the police station and whatnot.What can they do? Well? Yeah,

(11:11):
absolutely, let's go back to Directing'scomments and and that's that's where it
starts. I mean, what we'veseen recently is UH, you've seen the
president designate UH Entifa as a quoteunquote terrorist organization is in fact, in
practical terms, more simple hyperbole orrhetoric than anything anything material. But it

(11:37):
would allow as a designated terrorist organizationfor the FBI and and government agencies to
charge others with aiding uh the materialaid or providing material aid to a terrorist
organization. So there is some somebackbone and teeth to making that designation.
UH. In some sense. Theother thing too, is it's it's a

(12:01):
issue that hey, listen, thisgroup has now been designated as a group
who has member. Earlier, we'vediscussed the definition of terrorism, and so
to put it in practical terms,what the President is saying is that Antifa
is committing acts of violence people andor property to coerce a government or a
segment of the population in further intoa political or social objective. Political or

(12:26):
social objective is key. So he'ssaying Antifa is now used violent to coerce
a segment of the population. AndI don't know if this is the case
in Seattle, but if the peopleresponsible for Chaz or Chop are Antifa members,
and they coerced the community into havingthis occupation zone and pushing out the

(12:52):
governance, and now there's lawsuit bythose very people in that community who say,
hey, the police left us right, that is, and then they're
destroying properties of people who aren't willingto pay them for protection. That is
in fact terrorism, And the federalgovernment can come in and use the anti
terrorist statutes to come in dismantle thoseorganizations and make proper arrests. The reality

(13:13):
is in the military knows this anduses this in village stability operations where you
have high levels of mistrust and youhave a negative spiraling occurring where you have
people abrieting and breaking it, itis critical for government to come in and
secure the area. So security isnumber one. The second piece of rebuilt

(13:35):
is called governance. So coming inthat's the negotiation with the various parties to
talk about police reform and talk about, you know, how they're going to
go back and govern in that particulararea. And then the last piece is
developed. That's where you go backand you rebuild what's been damaged and make
it whole again, right, andany restitution occurs. But the very first

(13:58):
piece is security. I'll give youa quick example, and that is Ferguson.
Where Ferguson when it occurred, youhad individuals that were attacking police.
The police then donned their riot yearand they came back at the people that
were protesting. That caused the protestersto increase their level of control, which

(14:18):
resulted in looting and riot streets ofFerguson. The local sheriff's department knew they
were out gunned and out manned,so they brought in the state police.
The state police tried to use securityby larger forces to control those those groups
and stop the looting. That onlyincreased by the number of people from outside
of them who continued to loot overa course of a couple of days,

(14:41):
and eventually the state police brought inthe National Guard. They instituted a curfew,
and now you had enough security tomake the people go back to their
homes and stop the riot and stopthe looting. After that happened, you
had the federal government, state government, the local government come together. The
sheriff lost his job and was replaced. They changed the fundamentally the way they

(15:03):
ran that police department. The functionsof governance changed. Then they rebuilt Ferguson
to what it is today. You'regoing to see that happen in Minneapolis.
You're going to see that happen inAtlanta, Georgia. You're seeing that already
happening in New York City. Andwhat you'll see over the course of the
next several months, at least asit relates to de floid thing, social

(15:24):
media will have a play, We'llhave some part into it, but you're
going to have this negotiated settlement,if you will. Now, some would
argue we've already gone too far whenyou start bringing down statues and you start
changing the name of your pop rockgroups. But it's all part of the
negotiation. That's all part of reestablishing that baseline of public trust so that

(15:48):
social controls can come back down againstthem. And that's all part of creating
that normalcy so that you can predevelopment. What makes it difficult Calus is
where you have these network based groups. They're not going away because they're fragmented
to begin with their cells, ifyou will, and you'll always have these
anarchists, the antifuzz, the Q, the q on the the anonymous cyber

(16:12):
guys, They'll always be there.And that's what Ray was referring to when
he was talking about the impact ofsocial media and how quickly these individuals can
cause damage in our in our cultureand society. I'm sorry, I just
want to add, not not tomention add foreign influence from Russia and China,

(16:33):
Iran and these groups as well.Oh absolutely, I know there was.
I was when I was talking toa cyber expert yesterday mentioned earlier before
the show. He was telling methat I think Russia was one, China
had another one, but Russia's actuallytwo. Now where Russia had an account
that was under Black Lives Matter.Yeah, they had a half a million

(16:56):
followers on Facebook. And then theone they opened up on two I think
at one hundred and thirty thousand followers. And but but this account was not
by Russia. Actually, the accountwas by a right supremacist group that masqueraded
as a Black Lives Matter group.And then what they're doing is they set
up a meeting a particular day sothey could be ambushed by the white supremoists.

(17:19):
Now I'm ma sure what group itwas, but this is getting pretty
crazy. That's in Alabama. Itmight have been. Yeah, I think
it was in Alabama where called toa scene there was supposedly two victims and
when they got there they were surroundedin ambush. I believe that was in
Alabama, not one hundred percent sure, but yeah, you're gonna listen.

(17:41):
That's part of the social media phenomenonand I'm not going to get away from
it. I mean, it's notgoing anywhere. You know. It goes
back to the central point that thejob of a police officer day is enormously
difficult, much more difficult than itwas for me thirty years ago, and
in part only in part because socialmedia they're part of it is this lack

(18:03):
of trust, institutional trust. Youtalk about systemic racism, there is systemic
distrust of government. And when thegovernment employees exagerbate that, when they facilitate
that, when they exaggerate that,it only makes it worse. I can
tell you that when you lose trustin the institutions of governance, then that's

(18:29):
the seeds of anarchy. And that'sexactly what these morons want in chaz or
chop or you know Antifa, thesepeople that are network based, they want
anarchy because in that state of nature, in chaos, they are allowed to
operate with impunity, they're allowed tocommit those criminal acts, becomes much more

(18:52):
difficult for the government to stop them. And so that's what they're doing,
and that's what we need to preventand that's what was talking about. So
the government needs to be able tomonitor any criminal behavior online and that's a
critical distinction. You know, wewant free speech. I've never met a

(19:14):
federal agent and I've never met alocal state police officer who's the stutful free
speech that's peaceful and lawful, neverseen it, and may be there,
I haven't seen it, but atthe same time, they absolutely need the
community to help them ferret out theseindividuals that are interested in committing criminal acts
or facilitating criminal acts, including thedamage against property and or people, particularly

(19:40):
in furtherance of political or social objectives. And now we're right back to elf
alf phineas Priesthood, Army of Godand the rent the work based terrorist groups.
You know what. The other thingtoo, that that reminds me of
what I've seen that reminds me ofthis is kind of different. You kind
of touched on it earlier where thegroups seemed to be small in locations.

(20:03):
So what they have to do isbring in people from other states. Because
I know in Minneapolis when they hadthe protests or the riots out there,
they were saying like thirty forty percentweren't from that state. Then in New
York the same thing, about twentypercent weren't from that state. A lot
of the states had never really hadanything like an Idaho or withscop Ever,
again large majority weren't from that state. Some of them were even tracked.

(20:26):
They're coming from one state to another. So it seems like social media has
given them the ability to Okay,we're going to have to mass together because
there's just not enough of us inplaces. Well, now that's a that's
an excellent point. Maybe I candraw an analogy that would make sense for
our audience. So back, youknow, several hundred years ago, the

(20:47):
soldier had to put powder in arifle, then damp it down and put
a lead ball down and knock itdown and then lift his rifle men shoot.
It was very laborious and time consumingto shoot one round. But then
some smart engineer and new technology developeda rifle that it was a repeater,
so you could simply pull the trigger, cock the lever, and pull the

(21:10):
trigger again, and it increased yourfirepower lethality. That's fonancially because you could
fire many more rounds down range ina very short period of time. And
in a sense, that's what socialmedia has done. My company, the
Behavior on schounit At LLC, whichprovides security instruction and consult consultation and training

(21:30):
on human behavior. If you goto my website, it looks like I
have a huge staff and a largeemployee base, and in fact I'm a
proprietor. I can do a loton various platforms on social media makes me
look like I'm a much bigger companythan I am, just like that soldier
who can shoot a lot faster anda lot more than he could in the
past do to technology. If Ididn't have the Internet, I didn't have

(21:55):
the tools that I have available now, I couldn't get my message out as
broadly around the world literally. Uh. And I couldn't get the business that
I get around the world. Andso we have technology to think that,
but at the same time we havetechnology to blame for that. Yeah,
that's kind of a double edged sword. It is by getting technology, you

(22:19):
know, the whole thing of youknow, I don't want to get off
on the gun issue, but thereality people say, you know, you
know, guts and gunn It's notthe gun. The gun is a tool,
it's the intent behind the user.If my intent using that tool is
to go hunt for my family soI can feed them, then the tool
is a good tool. The gunallows them and keep my family and provide

(22:42):
for them. But if I takethat gun and I sit by the hunting
grounds and wait till other hunters comeout and then ambush them, shoot them
and take their hunting, you know, their their animals for my food.
That's a bad intent the same tool, right, So it's the humans intent

(23:03):
behind the tool. If I usea computer and I advertise my business and
I help people police officers become moreaware and in terms of mindful, of
resolution and the other things I train, that's great. But if I use
a computer to be a predator onlineand find young children, that's a bad
thing, and so we get blamedthe technology. And I'm one of these

(23:26):
people that I praise the telling,but I also believe police agencies need to
be trained in the use of thosetechnology so that they can prevent bad guys
from using them for bad intent.And I think that's what Ray is alluding
to as well. It's really amazinghow much the landscape has changed, as
director has said it, and asyou say right now, hopefully things will

(23:49):
get better as the time comes.Well, I think we're going to wrap
up up on that. Let mejust finish on this point. It's sort
of a futuristic kind of thing.The probability of social media stopping or waning
in any way and in terms ofits influence on human behavior is nil.

(24:10):
What in fact I think is goingto happen over the next decade is that
the technologies will advantinue to advance.They will artificial intelligence will be able to
help individuals UH not only identify sourcesof information that meet their interests and bossies,

(24:30):
but also counter balance their own implicitbiases. In other words, UH,
you will be able to set youryour level of of web browsing so
that you get information that not onlywhat you typically would want, like you
know, say I'm conservative and Itypically get my news sources from Fox News,

(24:52):
but it will also counter that bysending you information from the other side,
so you get a more balanced viewof what the world worldview is about.
And I hope that that's I hopethat happens, because what we're seeing
right now is extremism on both sides. And where you have that, you
you'll what will follow is isolation.And after isolation, you will find intolerance

(25:17):
and leading to perhaps violence, andwe need to we need to put a
stop to that. And I thinkthat's another point that Ray is referring to
as it relates to social media andhow quickly humans act based on what they
read, often which is false,and we need to we need to be
able to protect ourselves against that absolutelygreat point. Again, Annie, thank

(25:38):
you for being here. I alwayslove these conversations. Yeah, you know,
this is a good one. Ithink, you know, we should
come back and talk about more technologies. Uh, the Behaviorics Technology Studies program,
we looked at a lot of thingsas it relates to human behavior and
information exchange. Uh, it's abroad topic. I just saw an article

(25:59):
that we can visit yesterday about thefacial recognition and misidentifying suspects. You know,
it's like the early days of DNA. It's not the be all end
all. We have to be carefulhow we use technology because technology can lead
us down the wrong path. That'dbe a great conversation. I think people
will like that a lot. Absolutelyall right, folks, never wants to
put that podcast, make sure toshanscribe, leave us some comments on Apple

(26:22):
Podcasts or whatever platform you're on,and we will catch you next time.