Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze
some of the most notorious criminal cases with psychology and
criminology combined.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome everyone. I'm doctor carlos.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hey and this is Andy Brigle.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
We're here today with a new episode and we're gonna
be talking about the pizza bombing or the pizza bombers,
however you want to frame it.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
It was.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It happened about eighteen, seventeen years ago, and it's one
of the most bizarre robberies in America and one that's
still shrouded in mystery. We're going to find out all
about it in today's episode. We want to support our podcast,
make sure to share and subscribe. So Andy, we're gonna
be taking a look at the pizza bomber or bombers.
(00:54):
We're gonna find out a little bit about this story.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Really really odd way to rob a banks, needless to say.
And like you said, seventeen years ago, it happened in Erie, Pennsylvania.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about,
you know, summary of what this case was all about.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, there's a couple of things I also want to
highlight too. We'll give a plug out to Netflix because
they did a series on it called The Evil Genius
and also another four go ahead.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I'm sorry it's a four part I was gonna mention.
It's a four part series that goes into a lot
of what we're going to talk about today, a very
odd investigation with a lot of different loose ends and
enough mystery to keep you attended throughout the four part series.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Absolutely again, folks. Also, if you want to find out
more information about Andrew Wrangle, the former FBI profile, you
can find him at Behavioral Science Unit LLC dot com.
Look at the Behavioral Science Unit LLC and you'll find
out everything that he does over there if you want
to get more insight. So let's take a look here.
What were the crimes committed? Well, it was an odd
(01:58):
bank robbery using a collar bomb. A bunch of murderous
misfits carried out the weird plot, and I'll tell you
it's really strange. You got some strange characters here. How
they pulled it off, I don't know. Brian Wells is
one of the characters we're going to be talking about
in a little bit. He was the American pizza delivery
man who was murdered during this complex part involving a
plot involving a bank robbery, scavenger hunt, and home made
(02:20):
explosive device in Pennsylvania. He following an attempt to rob
a P and C bank and while surrounded by police,
Wells was murdered with an explosive collar locked to his neck,
which detonated. Now this is going to be interesting because
this has clues to Wells's involvement and the rest of
the case. It is known as the Collar bomb or
the Pizza bomber case. The incident was shown live on television.
(02:44):
Believe it or not, I'll mention it has a Netflix
episode and they seem to maybe even have done a
comedy that kind of resembles uncannily to this incident. Was
called It's called Thirty Minutes or Less, was the storyline
of a new comedy starring Jesse Eisenberg. And I don't
(03:04):
know about that, but it was kind of a weird,
dark humored kind of thing. But anyway, we're going to
get back to this case and we'll get more details
in a little bit before we get to that childhood
and development issues. We don't have a lot of information
on the pizza delivery man Brian Wells. All we know
his parents were Rose and Korean War veterans. Korean War
(03:26):
veteran was his dad, Harold Wells. In nineteen seventy three,
we do know Brian Wells was sixteen year old sophomore
than He dropped out of Eeries East High School, went
to work as a mechanic, worked blue collar jobs most
of his life, and became a pizza delivery man at
the time of the crime. Two of his neighbors recalled
him as a simple, likable man of modest means. We
(03:46):
don't know much about his background. I can't really surmise
much out of the information that we have on Brian
Wells of what kind of personality he had. So we're
going to move on over to Marjorie deal Armstrong, who
does have a lot more of a colorful past. She
was born in nineteen forty nine, had a history of
suffering from multiple illnesses, including bipolar disorder. And you got
(04:07):
a member by a polar disorder. To be able to
qualify for that, if you want to use that word
or to make the criteria, you're going to have to
have a couple things. One are you going to have
to have a depressive episode, that the last per a
certain period of time, and then a manic episode the
last per certain period of time. It's not just a
momentary change. A lot of people confuse that. They'll say, Oh,
he was depressed this morning, but now he's happy, then
he's depressed again. That's more of a borderline personality disorder
(04:30):
or circumstances that are involved bipolar. You have to have
that duration factor seven to ten days. Sometimes you don't
even have that manic episode, and then you also have
a neutral period two. Anyway, she had biopolar disorder a
cording to them since the early teens, and somehow speculators
she might have been a serial killer. And he's going
(04:50):
to try to touch on that a little bit. Her
mental health deteriorated, deteriorate it in her twenties. Marjor was
an exemplary student in high school and earned a master's
degree from Gannon Call. So she still was able to
focus and do things that she had to do, so
that's interesting. In nineteen eighty four, she shot her boyfriend
Robert Thomas six times as he lay on the couch,
but wasted was acquitted on claims of self defense. People
(05:13):
can be dangerous from the couch. Her husband and several
other partners also died under suspicious circumstances. And Annie, you
know a little bit more about this what's happening over
there with Marjorie deal Armstrong.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Well, I mean, she's had a string of bad luck
with men, evidently, and a lot of them ended up dead.
In her husband's case, who died of a Marlborough hemorrhage,
it was questioned whether or not he was injured with
a blunt trauma because the hemorrhage.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It actually went to the.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Corner's office, but no charges were ever filed in that case.
She had other issues besides murder, and part of that
was some of the men that she didn't kill but
had associations with. I didn't you even talk a little
bit about one of the prime suspects in this invest
and the guy by the name of Bill Rothenstein, William
Ansel Bill Rothenstein, I think you have a little bit
(06:05):
of information about him. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Bill's another one has a very interesting past. He was
born in to Matthias Rothstein and Virginia Breiner in to
nineteen forty four. Now his father ran the Rolla bottling
company from nineteen forty five to nineteen seventy eight. There's
stability there in the income in the family at least.
Rothenstein dated dial Armstrong in the late sixties, so let's
(06:31):
put some context on there. In the late sixties, she
was probably in her well She was twenty years old
in nineteen sixty nine, so he dated her when she
was in her teens. He was about five years older,
so I'm not sure exactly when the dates were that
he dated her. He was implicated in nineteen seventy seven
murder after he gave a handgun to a friend who
(06:51):
used it to murder a romantic rival. He'd later attempted
to destroy the weapon. Was granted immunity from prosecution in
exchange for his testimony. Very lucky characters these too. Rostein
was a handyman and a part time shop teacher, and
was part of a group called the fractured Intellectuals intelligent
people who were not well adjusted. Rostein was admitted to.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Carlos.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
I think that's important to this case, the symbiotic relationship
between Rothenstein and Marjorie Armstrong. They dated, of course they
stayed close friends. Will can talk about the Rodin murder
in just a moment but they both had a high
intellect since high school.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
She was a validictorian in the high school as a
matter of fact. But they both.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Had now adjusted personalities in terms of associations.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
With other people.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
They had a hard time really understanding and developing lasting relationships.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
With other people, although they've had a.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Relationship, as you mentioned, from the mid sixties up until
the time that they had their well, we'll talk about
their following out if you will.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, it's interesting because when I was looking up Marjorie
deal Armstrong, I mean, she had quite a bit of
history and in her twenties is really when everything went south.
As you mentioned, it was a valedictorian, she was a
gifted musician. But then after seeing a lot of doctors,
they had multiple diagnosis, which is common. She had bipolar
disorder mania. One physician even diagnosed her with narcissism. She
(08:24):
was also known to be a hoarder from an early age,
and hoardering is usually an issue of lack of control.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
And I think it was a Yeah, it was a
history of Rothenstein also being a hoarder, and in Marjorie's case,
the investigators found what they find like four hundred pounds
of chene that was put bad.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh, that's right. Yeah, and again it's a lack of
control usually is what happens with hoarders. A lot of
times they're trying to secure something for their future. It's
actually commonly seen for individuals that came from war torn countries.
If you have people who have come from civil wars
or other types of countries that have encountered a lot
of issues where they've lost basic goods or needs, they
(09:07):
tend to hoard due to the loss of fear. A
little different than this case, but just something throwing.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
If everybody is hoarding a a compulsive.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Disorder, it's considered to be considered Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And it's four hundred pounds of butter and seven hundred
pounds of rotted cheese that investigators found in her home.
But both she and Rottenstein had this this compulsion to
h to hoard materials in their home.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And again they very bright, right people. Yeah, and you
can't be. I mean, psychopaths can be too, And I
mean it depends on what theory you're going to follow.
It's interesting because you have this internal world that's in
total chaos, and that's what's happening with her. Her internal world.
One part of her internal world's complete chaos. But I
don't want to get down that rabbit hole. But she
(09:59):
but her external world seemed to be okay until she
hit her twenties, and then a lot of the stuff
that was internalized was starting to manifest itself externally and
her view of the world got totally distorted. And one
of the things here is we got the man who
turned out to be deal Armstrong's boyfriend, James rode In
was shot in the head and stuffed in the freezer.
She was later convicted and sentenced to thirty years for
(10:21):
the murder. But you got to remember, now, she doesn't
really she tries to hide him I guess to a
certain degree by stuffing him in the freezer.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Well let's talk a little bit about Yeah, let's look
we get into that. Let's talk a little bit about
how that happened.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
So we'll go back to Rothenstein was admitted to Mill
Creek Community Hospital July twenty thirty.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Two thousand and four because he had previously.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Been diagnosed with non Hodgkins with foma and he was
having you know, mathetized throughout his body. So he died
July thirtieth, So what is that about a week later?
He died at age sixty in two thousand and four.
And keep that year in mind, Carlos, because in two
thousand and three is when the Rodin murder first becomes known.
(11:08):
And a month this was a month after this failed
bank robbery that Brian Wells was part of, and this
big conspiracy and this whole case was surrounded. So if
we can let me jump to details of the case,
there are a couple other conspirators that we can come
back to, but I think we've mentioned the main players,
(11:29):
which is Wells, Armstrong and rothen Steam. So on August
twenty eight, two thousand and three, at about two point
thirty pm, Brian Wells enters the PNC Bank in Erie, Pennsylvania.
He came in with a cane in his hand and
a collar around a T shirt. He goes to the
(11:50):
teller and he says, I want you to gather all
the taillers together with their balt access codes and put
two hundred and fifty.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Thousand dollars in this bag. You have fifteen minutes.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
And he lifted his shirt to show this heavy box,
the device that had been wrapped around his neck and
down to his chest and told the tellers the bomb.
The teller told the Wells that she couldn't get everybody.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
To the vault.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
All she could do is put the money that was
in the cash doors in his bag, which was eighty
seven hundred dollars thereabouts, and he took a dumb, dumb lollipop.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Very calmly through this whole process, Wells takes the lollipop.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Grabs the eight thousand dollars, and he leaves. He gets
into his car and starts driving away. About fifteen minutes later,
Carlos he's spotted by Pennsylvania State troopers.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
He's standing outside at Geo Metro.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
This must be like a gas station, and they surround
him and they tossed him to the pavement.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
They cut him, and Wells.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Tells the troopers that he was out on delivery and
had been costed by a group of black men who
chained the bomb around his neck at gunpoint and forced
him to rob a bank. He said, the bomb's going
to go off, and so the troopers did the prudent thing.
They all, you know, got behind their patrol cars and
called in the bomb squad. So he's sitting there and this,
by the way, goes out quickly. And of course who's
(13:11):
listening to police dispatch?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yeah, the media too, well, the bad guys certainly, but
the media also. So it wasn't there wasn't very long
that the media comes. And so to our listeners who
are interested, you can go to the internet. There's a
lot of video, not just the Netflix uh documentary, there's
a lot of videos showing what happens. What happens is well,
starts to panic. He's sitting there with the troopers at
(13:41):
one point, apparently concerned that his boss and employer may
think that he was not working, and said, can you
call my boss? And suddenly the device of these warnings
starts beeping. The beating starts increasing, and it's and it's
uh volume, and it goes off. It rips a five
(14:04):
inch gash in his chest and he dies. This is
about three fifteen PM, so from the time that he
committed the robbery at twoint thirty, we're looking at forty
five minutes. This is important because in that time that
he died, the bomb squad arrives three minutes afterwards he deceased.
(14:25):
They do a search of his vehicle, and they find
this cane that he was carrying was actually an ingeniously
crafted homemade gun. So now they start collecting evidence. They
you know, look at what's on his body, what's in
his car, and they find not just this very unique
bomb which had six inch pipe bombs loaded with double
(14:46):
based smokeless powder. What they found was in his possession
a series of quote unquote scavenger hunt clues and in
this handwrit fighting that the investigators found in his car,
it was addressed bomb.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Hostage instruction notes, and it says.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Rob the bank of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars,
then follow these instructions in.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Order to gain the keys for your release.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
So in theory, Wells was supposed to follow these maps
details to certain locations and ordered in order for him
to survive this bomb. It says in this note, this
is only one way you can survive.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
And that So this is almost like a plot from
a movie, like what was that.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Movie called, I think it was called Speed with with
the Leaves and yeah, yeah, so so it's sort of
like one of those plots, right, this is this is
life imitating art, and so in this car there were
drawings and different detailed maps.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Or the bomber the Wells to follow in order to
gain his release.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
What's also interesting is that he was wearing a T
shirt and the T shirt was guest clothing logo. It
was not his typical T shirt. He had two T
shirts on this one was over the where the bomb
was placed, and the investigators later think that the bomber.
The signature of this bomber was to have the clue
(16:19):
guests logo for the investigators to figure out you know,
whether or not this was part of the puzzle or
part of the game plan for Robin the Bank. Long
and short is that the police officers theaters after the
bomb investigation began, tried to follow the various clues and
(16:39):
found that the second clue led him to a bottle,
but the bottle was empty, which they theorized the bad
guys knew that this was never to be fulfilled.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
There was never enough time for the bomber in.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Forty five minutes to go through all the clues that
would get them to the end and gain their freedom.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
In other words, the theory was that whoever strapped.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
The bomb on Wells intended Wells to die from that bomb.
His co conspirators never intended to rob the bank.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
They wanted to kill Wells for some reason. So then
it became a function of trying to identify who.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
These people might be, right, and so the investigation continued,
didn't go very far in two thousand and three, but
a month later our suspect, William Bill Rothison brought the scene.
He calls he calls the police nine to eleven, you know,
nine one, one September twentieth, and he claims that he lives.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Near a television tower and that there's a body of
a man named James Roden who's stuffed in his freezer
in his garage.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
He tells the police that he's written a suicide note
that over a period of the last several weeks he
had considered killing himself and he just he couldn't bear
having this person in his freezer any longer.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
So of course the police come and they find a note,
a suicide note.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
And what's interesting in the suicide note is it reads
a disclaimer that this has nothing to do.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
With the Wells case. He blamed.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Yeah, very odd because what would his potential suicide and
or a dead body in the freezer, why would the
police even think it had anything to do with the
Wells case. There's no connection except the fact that he.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Put it in the suicide note right.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
He goes on and explains to the police in an
interview over the course of two days that the dead
man came to his freezer in mid August of that
year after he received.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
The telephone call from who who do you think? Game?
A call?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
It was Marjorie Harmstrom. Marjorie. Yeah, he's old plane from
the sixties.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
So his girlfriend from the sixties calls him and says, hey,
I shot my boyfriend James Roaden in the back with
a twelve game shotgun.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Can you come over and get him his body?
Speaker 4 (19:14):
We had a fight over money, so playing you know,
here's a motive for Robin a bank by the way.
So she shoots Rodan in the back, calls the ex boyfriend,
and this mope Robinstein goes to her place.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
According to the story, he goes.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Over there, collects the corpse and sticks Rodan in the
chest breezer of his garage for five weeks. Then, because
he's a good friend, he melts down the murder weapon.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
He claims.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
He scatters the pieces around the Erie County in different locations,
but he said he couldn't go through the plan of
killing himself right now. Having having said that, this guy
has non hot spot because formally he's got a you know,
he's got a terminal disease, but he couldn't, you know,
(20:03):
bring himself to kill himself. So September twenty one, after
a couple of days after he a day after he
made the phone call, they arrested Armstrong for the murder
of Rodent. So sixteen months later, in January about five,
she played guilty but mentally inconfident, and she was sent
(20:25):
to seven to twenty years in state prison for that murder.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
But here's the thing, fascinating time in July sevenths for
being here, we really appreciated.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Investigators working point welcome. You're welcome, actually played together.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Thank you everyone for listening as well. Surely appreciated. Remember
sharing subscribes failed podcast. Thanks again.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
The federal investigators couldn't. They didn't solve the mystery at
that point. That doesn't happen until two thousand and five
when they get a phone call from a state police
officer who had met with Armstrong.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Here she comes again.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
So Armstrong is now in prison for the Rodin murder,
and she decides that she wants to cooperate, and she
tells the police that.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Wrote that Rosenstein's Rothenstein's.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Suicide note was a lie and says that Rodin's verda
had everything to do with the collar bomb plot or
the pizza bomb whatever, you know, It's been called several names.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
So she says, hey, I'll meet with the FED if.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
You can arrange a transfer from the state prison to
the minimum security federal prison, which is much closer to Erie, Pennsylvania.
So that's what happens, Carlos. So she starts cooperating in
two thousand and five.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
She thinks that she can put everything on Rothenstein, who
is dead. He died in two thousand and four. So
she starts talking to the authorities about the murders and
the you know, bringing wells in and the plot to
rob the bank, and she's depending everything on the Rothsteine.
But by giving the evidence, you know, to the police,
(22:13):
to the FBI, she's implicating herself.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
So paying him two thousand bucks to hold the body,
and then Rothstein said that he was afraid not to
because of her.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah, right, and so yeah, she's going, you know, going back,
going back to you know, her background a little bit
back in high school. According to former classmates, she was
known for her intelligence. I mean, she possessed an almost
most almost encyclopedia like mind on history, law, and literature.
(22:46):
Her but she suffered, as you mentioned earlier, from bipolar disorder.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So she would have these sharp mood swings, right, and
and she had this very very caustic and very volatile
anger management issue.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
And so you know, she was very tough to be
around for any length of time because she had some
difficulties maintaining relationships. She met with the prosecutors for several
interviews during this period of time in two thousand and five,
and she went.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Over that Wells, the dead pizza guy, was just a.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Victim, but he had been on you know, in on
the planning as well as you know, in the bankrupty.
And this becomes a big bone of contention, if you will, between.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Wells family and his wife, his lately his widow, and
the other co conspirators because.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
And eventually the federal prosecutors in this case say that
Wells was knowledgeable of the conspiracy, even though he may
have thought that the bomb was in earth, whereas Armstrong.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Says that he was in on the whole thing, that
in fact, she asserts that Rose Rothstein was the.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Man who turned her and for you know, the Rodin
murder was in fact the mastermind of the whole bombing,
the whole bank robbery, and so forth, she pointed the
finger of rocken Stein, and she implicated herself even more
by giving more information. So then in two thousand and five,
several months after she started talking, the FED got another
(24:20):
break a guy by name of Ken Barnes. Did you
talk about Ken Barnes earlier? I think maybe it's a
good time.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah. He was another co consperrat.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
So he comes forward and he said that an old
fishing body of Armstrong.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
He was an old fishing buddy of Armstrong, that he.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Spoke freely about the plan and brother in law turn
him in while Barnes was already in jail on unrelated
drug charges, and Barnes agreed to a deal. He said
he would give a full account of the pizza bombing
for a reduced sentence. So he confirmed to the FED
that Armstrong was, he says, the mastermind behind the bomb plot.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
He claimed that she needed cash, which kind of goes
back to the Rodin murder, right.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
They fought over money and said that she could pay
Barnes to help her kill her father.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
She believed her father was worth a lot.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Of money, and so she needed money to pay a
hitman to kill her father.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And the pizza robbery. So you see how convolue this
is getting.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Right, Absolutely, it's all about money really for her at
this point.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Yes, right, So it sort of like playing a game
of chess and she was moving pieces and so according
to Barnes, Armstrong was getting people to get money through.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
This failed bank robbery. The purpose of the money was for.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Him to be paid so he could help her kill
her father, who she believed was wealth. He turns out
he didn't have a whole lot of money, but in
any case, February two thousand and six, federal agents met
with Armstrong again. This time she brings her attorney. She
gets very indignant belligerent when they start talking about the case,
(26:03):
and basically she implicates herself further in the Wells Bank robbery.
July two thousand and seven, about a month from the
four year anniversary of the pizza bombing, the United States
Attorney's Office files charges against Armstrong and Barnes for carrying
(26:25):
out the crime. The theory from the prosecutor, Mary bet
Buchanan was it Wells was part of the planning but
became an unwilling participant when he found out that the
big bomb was real. He tried to run and they
held him at gunpoint and put the device around his neck.
(26:47):
And at that point he was kind of like in
a bad situation. The relatives of Wells that you can imagine,
did not agree with the federal prosecutors in this particular case,
though they decided to go to trial. It was a
five day trial in Aree Federal Courthouse and during that trial,
(27:10):
the big witness was the ex crack dealer Barnes, who
did receive a reduced.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Sentence, and he basically told.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Everyone that he, you know, that he was part of
the conspiracy and Armstrong was the mastermind behind us the
conspiracy to rob the bank. As it turns out, barnes
testimony uh really ticked off Armstrong, who decided to to testify.
And while Barnes was testifying, Armstrong yelled out, you know
(27:41):
wire and the judge ad monish her. She got her
day in court on the eighth day of the trial,
and she basically just belittled the prosecutor and ranted about
her innocence. She was then convicted and she was sentenced
to life in prison. As it turns out, life for
(28:04):
her wasn't.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
That long because she contracted cancer and she died in
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And that's that would be the end of the investigation,
you would think, except that there's still there's still this theory.
One of the investigators, these Humer FBI agent retired FBI
agent is.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
His first name was is escaping meeting. His last name
is Fisher, and Fisher is one of the retired agents
believes that based on the behavioral.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Analysis you know, my old unit's profile of the collar
bomber as he was known, that the opinion of the
department is that there was much more than merely a
bank robbery. According to the BAU, the behavioral analysts that
looked at the case, behavior scene in this crime seems.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Choreographed by the signature of the.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Bomb manufacturer, if you will, that the collar bomber was
watching from the sidelines through this whole kind of scripted drama,
and it bates on the complex nature of the crime.
Bau believed that there were multiple motives for the offender
and money was not the primary one. In other words,
the robbery was never the point. The idea was to
(29:26):
set up a puzzle, a beguiling.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Puzzle that would resist explanation for years on end.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
According to Fisher, he doesn't think that Armstrong was the
mastermind behind this. He looks back at the FBI's profile,
saying that he's comfortable with a wide variety of power
tools that were needed for developing and manufacturing this bomb,
and that points to one person.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
That's Bill Robinstein. Robinstein was a frugal person who sinks
the scraps of different.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Materials for various projects, and he was ingenius and developing
different mechanical parts.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
And according to Fisher, he.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Believes that Rothstein, who was this handyman who could fabricut
just about anything, was booking to concoct a puzzle that
police officers would not be able to solve. That he
what he called nine to one one and fingered Armstrong.
He did so with the intended purpose of shifting blame,
(30:29):
knowing that he was terminally ill to Armstrong and knowing
that if the clues led him to Armstrong, she would
be the lightly candidate for mission, and that this would
be an unsolved crime. That until his dying day, he
would be insulating himself.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
In Fisher's words, he would be controlling the narrative.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
One of the things that when Fisher was interviewed, I
believe for the documentary, he said, the son of a
bitch ended up winning. He died with all the seat.
He died and taken all he answered with him. He
gets the last laugh.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
In that sense. He escaped punishment, He escaped detention, detection.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
He left us with a bunch of idiots and a
bunch of questions, is what Fisher says. And uh, and
that seems to be and according to Fisher's opinion, that
seems to be what bro Brocken scenes ultimate trying.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
He died a freeman, uh while he set up the
rest of these patches, if you will, uh holding the bag.
Pretty interesting case, Yeah, yeah, pretty interesting and interesting too
because the nature of it was played out on live TV. Uh,
(31:43):
because you know, media gets to these these scenes fairly quickly.
There was there were a half dozen newspeople, uh from
the various you know, parts of erie there to give
different angles of the bomb going off and killing killing wealth.
What's interesting too is that it wasn't broadcast today. It
(32:06):
would be like the next day beyond YouTube or something.
But it took several days, but eventually the video got
to an ABC affiliate and down I believe in Washington,
DC one oh one, a shock jockey DC one on one,
leaked the footage and that's how how it became public
that he was blown up.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
So pretty interesting case involving some pretty interesting characters.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
And I would encourage, you know, if you want to
see who've done it? Kind of thing that the documentary
on Netflix that they want to watch.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Just a couple of things, Folks, those forensic psychology fans
out there bi polar disorder. When they've done studies in
regards to by polar disorder and violent crime, they're more prevalent,
uh compared people with depression, but not as prevalent compared
to people as psychosis. And again, not everybody who has
bipolar disorder becomes a criminal by any means. I was
(33:04):
looking at intelligence and by polar disorder, there's only a
small correlation when it comes to males, not females. But
the interesting part is there is a link between creativity
and by a polar disorder as well, so it's schizophreni
as well. So this is a fascinating one because there
is a link there, and she was supposedly a gifted musician,
(33:24):
which falls under the tagline I guess of creativity. So
just some interesting the footnotes there for people if you're
into that stuff, criminology and whatnot. You got a little
bit more data, I.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Think, Yeah, another thing too call us.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
You know, as we look at these cases, I'm always fascinated,
as you know, as a former investigator, you know what
the break in the case was.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
What was the thing that in like in this particular case,
what was it? Was it physical evidence? Was it an
individual or a human who provided testimony?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
So what really brings the case to some closure for
not just the victim and victims family, but for the
community as well.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
And in this particular case, it seems the motive is
you know, you and I have often.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
Talked about you know, PEPs personal, economic, political, or social,
and in this case it certainly seems economic that the
needs for the majority of the cocin spurs. They were
motivated from Wells to Barnes to Armstrong by money. They
thought there was this attraction. But in the back of
this the real puppet master, if you will, rocket seeing.
(34:34):
I don't think he was interested in money. He had
a terminal disease.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
He was interested.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I think like Fisher talks about and the Bau talks
about manipulating others and using his intellect to prove how
smart he was, even though he was never accomplished. He
really didn't make much of his life. He wanted to.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
He wanted to prove he was smarter than everybody else
in the room.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
And in this particular case, the investigation was solved because
of two things. The cooperation between the state police, who
you know, notified the FBI of this link. And and
obviously the biggest break in the case was Armstrong and
her own narcissism uh in her her thinking that she
could pin this on a dead man brodaste and and
(35:18):
and prevent herself from being convicted for the same murder.
And that was her undoing and that was the basis
of solving this investments started opening her mouth.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
And that behavior from is very common too, especially if
you have authoritarian type parents or parents who never acknowledged
anything that you did. And we're talking severe folks. This
isn't something where you forget to say something to your child.
You got the memories or extremes. But Rossing was probably
neglected quite a bit, maybe criticized heavily. So nothing he
(35:51):
did was good enough. And uh, do you like to
exploit his suppose of intelligence?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
And well, it's not just that, it's also there's also
there's also a pretty big divide in this case of
intellect between Armstrong and Rothensteine and Barnes and Wells.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Wells was not an intellectual. He left a high school
as a sophomore, uh.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
To start working as a mechanic. He was a pizza
delivery guy. He was a simple guy, even by his
own his own family's account. This is this is not
a sophisticated man. Barnes had a drug addiction, needed money.
So when you look at Armstrong and you look at Rothesstine,
these individuals had the intellect and ability to manipulate others.
(36:38):
What is really funny, it's funny in the sense ironic,
is that they were also manipulating each other. You had
Roethlistine using Armstrong right, and Armstrong then trying to use rough.
These people dated that they supposedly had a romantic past,
but she was quick to put the murders on on
(36:59):
Rothsteine and he he was certainly quick enough to call
the police and put it on her.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Oh. Absolutely. And I think they bumped into each other
at that point. I think Broston I think mentioned at
one point I told you earlier he was scared of her,
so she probably ran and ran her course with him,
and he kind of gave up on that and moved along.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Like ke Scorpion's right strike the other person quicker. Yeah,
it's really really strange, and.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
You and I have seen it before. They turned on
each other pretty quickly once they get in front of
the law enforcement people.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah. Better trait of sociopaths.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, so pass really have no connection to anybody, so
they could really care less. I think sometimes they're going
to take credit for well most of the serrachillas who
were they don't do that super.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Yeah. The sociopath has the ability to uh feign empathy
but not really feel empathy, right, Yeah, so they can't
have sort of relationships you have. I mean, not not
to change the subject, but Dan Raider, the the yeah
BTK killer, I mean, he had he had a family, right,
not a It's not unknown for a serial killer a
(38:13):
sociopath to have a normal life outside of their of
their maladaptive life.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I think that's what's happening is that there they were
dividing them that into three categories, where you have anti
social personality disorder, psychopaths and sociopaths. Sociopath being the more
violent of a bunch, more like a Ted Bundy psychopath,
also has similar traits to that. Psychopaths they tend to
derive more from genetic issues sociopaths or more nurturing issues,
(38:44):
at least that's what they're believing. And then the anti
social personality disorted, it's not raider, but it'd be more
like a made off rad psychopath.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, we used to use that b a U.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
We use the mad, sad or bad, right. And and
the difference being the mad and the bad, right was
the mad person was crazy, was you know, uh, had
some clinical illness. The bad person was just a bad person,
anti social. He just never was culturally assimilated. Uh, and
(39:20):
and never accepted rules that that you know that they.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Were bound to. H They played by their own rules.
And so that's how we looked at them.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
And then the sad person was, you know, the person
who's depressed and bipolar and all that good stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Absolutely, I think this. Yeah, in this case, I don't.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
I mean, she was diagnosed with mental disorder. I don't
see any of that history with Rothstein. I think Rothenstein
was just uh, just.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
A bad guy.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I think I can see was he might have been
a psychopath just because of his uh employment history. But again,
we have very little knowledge of everything that's really going on.
I mean, obviously he likes some kind of empathy by
keeping that corpse in the freezer for five weeks too. Yeah, yeah,
I mean that's not nor behavior.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Very stream Yeah, a very very odd case, but a
very ancient cases. You know, it knows what greed I'm
mixed with with nets can do.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Hey, folks, Also, if you want us to cover any
other cases or topics, let us know on the comments section. Andy,
thanks again.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Interesting, Hey, Cardles, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We'll break it up a little bit there, but thank
you everyone.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
It's interesting conversation. I can't wait till our next one.
And you should watch that Netflix documentary.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Absolutely, Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure to share and
subscribe to support our podcast.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Sure, you go to my website, Oh Behavioral Science. You
at LLC dot com
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Thet you go, Thanks Carlos
Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze
some of the most notorious criminal cases with psychology and
criminology combined.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome everyone. I'm doctor carlos.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hey and this is Andy Brigle.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
We're here today with a new episode and we're gonna
be talking about the pizza bombing or the pizza bombers,
however you want to frame it.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
It was.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It happened about eighteen, seventeen years ago, and it's one
of the most bizarre robberies in America and one that's
still shrouded in mystery. We're going to find out all
about it in today's episode. We want to support our podcast,
make sure to share and subscribe. So Andy, we're gonna
be taking a look at the pizza bomber or bombers.
(00:54):
We're gonna find out a little bit about this story.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Really really odd way to rob a banks, needless to say.
And like you said, seventeen years ago, it happened in Erie, Pennsylvania.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about,
you know, summary of what this case was all about.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, there's a couple of things I also want to
highlight too. We'll give a plug out to Netflix because
they did a series on it called The Evil Genius
and also another four go ahead.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I'm sorry it's a four part I was gonna mention.
It's a four part series that goes into a lot
of what we're going to talk about today, a very
odd investigation with a lot of different loose ends and
enough mystery to keep you attended throughout the four part series.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Absolutely again, folks. Also, if you want to find out
more information about Andrew Wrangle, the former FBI profile, you
can find him at Behavioral Science Unit LLC dot com.
Look at the Behavioral Science Unit LLC and you'll find
out everything that he does over there if you want
to get more insight. So let's take a look here.
What were the crimes committed? Well, it was an odd
(01:58):
bank robbery using a collar bomb. A bunch of murderous
misfits carried out the weird plot, and I'll tell you
it's really strange. You got some strange characters here. How
they pulled it off, I don't know. Brian Wells is
one of the characters we're going to be talking about
in a little bit. He was the American pizza delivery
man who was murdered during this complex part involving a
plot involving a bank robbery, scavenger hunt, and home made
(02:20):
explosive device in Pennsylvania. He following an attempt to rob
a P and C bank and while surrounded by police,
Wells was murdered with an explosive collar locked to his neck,
which detonated. Now this is going to be interesting because
this has clues to Wells's involvement and the rest of
the case. It is known as the Collar bomb or
the Pizza bomber case. The incident was shown live on television.
(02:44):
Believe it or not, I'll mention it has a Netflix
episode and they seem to maybe even have done a
comedy that kind of resembles uncannily to this incident. Was
called It's called Thirty Minutes or Less, was the storyline
of a new comedy starring Jesse Eisenberg. And I don't
(03:04):
know about that, but it was kind of a weird,
dark humored kind of thing. But anyway, we're going to
get back to this case and we'll get more details
in a little bit before we get to that childhood
and development issues. We don't have a lot of information
on the pizza delivery man Brian Wells. All we know
his parents were Rose and Korean War veterans. Korean War
(03:26):
veteran was his dad, Harold Wells. In nineteen seventy three,
we do know Brian Wells was sixteen year old sophomore
than He dropped out of Eeries East High School, went
to work as a mechanic, worked blue collar jobs most
of his life, and became a pizza delivery man at
the time of the crime. Two of his neighbors recalled
him as a simple, likable man of modest means. We
(03:46):
don't know much about his background. I can't really surmise
much out of the information that we have on Brian
Wells of what kind of personality he had. So we're
going to move on over to Marjorie deal Armstrong, who
does have a lot more of a colorful past. She
was born in nineteen forty nine, had a history of
suffering from multiple illnesses, including bipolar disorder. And you got
(04:07):
a member by a polar disorder. To be able to
qualify for that, if you want to use that word
or to make the criteria, you're going to have to
have a couple things. One are you going to have
to have a depressive episode, that the last per a
certain period of time, and then a manic episode the
last per certain period of time. It's not just a
momentary change. A lot of people confuse that. They'll say, Oh,
he was depressed this morning, but now he's happy, then
he's depressed again. That's more of a borderline personality disorder
(04:30):
or circumstances that are involved bipolar. You have to have
that duration factor seven to ten days. Sometimes you don't
even have that manic episode, and then you also have
a neutral period two. Anyway, she had biopolar disorder a
cording to them since the early teens, and somehow speculators
she might have been a serial killer. And he's going
(04:50):
to try to touch on that a little bit. Her
mental health deteriorated, deteriorate it in her twenties. Marjor was
an exemplary student in high school and earned a master's
degree from Gannon Call. So she still was able to
focus and do things that she had to do, so
that's interesting. In nineteen eighty four, she shot her boyfriend
Robert Thomas six times as he lay on the couch,
but wasted was acquitted on claims of self defense. People
(05:13):
can be dangerous from the couch. Her husband and several
other partners also died under suspicious circumstances. And Annie, you
know a little bit more about this what's happening over
there with Marjorie deal Armstrong.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Well, I mean, she's had a string of bad luck
with men, evidently, and a lot of them ended up dead.
In her husband's case, who died of a Marlborough hemorrhage,
it was questioned whether or not he was injured with
a blunt trauma because the hemorrhage.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It actually went to the.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Corner's office, but no charges were ever filed in that case.
She had other issues besides murder, and part of that
was some of the men that she didn't kill but
had associations with. I didn't you even talk a little
bit about one of the prime suspects in this invest
and the guy by the name of Bill Rothenstein, William
Ansel Bill Rothenstein, I think you have a little bit
(06:05):
of information about him. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Bill's another one has a very interesting past. He was
born in to Matthias Rothstein and Virginia Breiner in to
nineteen forty four. Now his father ran the Rolla bottling
company from nineteen forty five to nineteen seventy eight. There's
stability there in the income in the family at least.
Rothenstein dated dial Armstrong in the late sixties, so let's
(06:31):
put some context on there. In the late sixties, she
was probably in her well She was twenty years old
in nineteen sixty nine, so he dated her when she
was in her teens. He was about five years older,
so I'm not sure exactly when the dates were that
he dated her. He was implicated in nineteen seventy seven
murder after he gave a handgun to a friend who
(06:51):
used it to murder a romantic rival. He'd later attempted
to destroy the weapon. Was granted immunity from prosecution in
exchange for his testimony. Very lucky characters these too. Rostein
was a handyman and a part time shop teacher, and
was part of a group called the fractured Intellectuals intelligent
people who were not well adjusted. Rostein was admitted to.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Carlos.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
I think that's important to this case, the symbiotic relationship
between Rothenstein and Marjorie Armstrong. They dated, of course they
stayed close friends. Will can talk about the Rodin murder
in just a moment but they both had a high
intellect since high school.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
She was a validictorian in the high school as a
matter of fact. But they both.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Had now adjusted personalities in terms of associations.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
With other people.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
They had a hard time really understanding and developing lasting relationships.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
With other people, although they've had a.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Relationship, as you mentioned, from the mid sixties up until
the time that they had their well, we'll talk about
their following out if you will.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, it's interesting because when I was looking up Marjorie
deal Armstrong, I mean, she had quite a bit of
history and in her twenties is really when everything went south.
As you mentioned, it was a valedictorian, she was a
gifted musician. But then after seeing a lot of doctors,
they had multiple diagnosis, which is common. She had bipolar
disorder mania. One physician even diagnosed her with narcissism. She
(08:24):
was also known to be a hoarder from an early age,
and hoardering is usually an issue of lack of control.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
And I think it was a Yeah, it was a
history of Rothenstein also being a hoarder, and in Marjorie's case,
the investigators found what they find like four hundred pounds
of chene that was put bad.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh, that's right. Yeah, and again it's a lack of
control usually is what happens with hoarders. A lot of
times they're trying to secure something for their future. It's
actually commonly seen for individuals that came from war torn countries.
If you have people who have come from civil wars
or other types of countries that have encountered a lot
of issues where they've lost basic goods or needs, they
(09:07):
tend to hoard due to the loss of fear. A
little different than this case, but just something throwing.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
If everybody is hoarding a a compulsive.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Disorder, it's considered to be considered Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And it's four hundred pounds of butter and seven hundred
pounds of rotted cheese that investigators found in her home.
But both she and Rottenstein had this this compulsion to
h to hoard materials in their home.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And again they very bright, right people. Yeah, and you
can't be. I mean, psychopaths can be too, And I
mean it depends on what theory you're going to follow.
It's interesting because you have this internal world that's in
total chaos, and that's what's happening with her. Her internal world.
One part of her internal world's complete chaos. But I
don't want to get down that rabbit hole. But she
(09:59):
but her external world seemed to be okay until she
hit her twenties, and then a lot of the stuff
that was internalized was starting to manifest itself externally and
her view of the world got totally distorted. And one
of the things here is we got the man who
turned out to be deal Armstrong's boyfriend, James rode In
was shot in the head and stuffed in the freezer.
She was later convicted and sentenced to thirty years for
(10:21):
the murder. But you got to remember, now, she doesn't
really she tries to hide him I guess to a
certain degree by stuffing him in the freezer.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Well let's talk a little bit about Yeah, let's look
we get into that. Let's talk a little bit about
how that happened.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
So we'll go back to Rothenstein was admitted to Mill
Creek Community Hospital July twenty thirty.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Two thousand and four because he had previously.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Been diagnosed with non Hodgkins with foma and he was
having you know, mathetized throughout his body. So he died
July thirtieth, So what is that about a week later?
He died at age sixty in two thousand and four.
And keep that year in mind, Carlos, because in two
thousand and three is when the Rodin murder first becomes known.
(11:08):
And a month this was a month after this failed
bank robbery that Brian Wells was part of, and this
big conspiracy and this whole case was surrounded. So if
we can let me jump to details of the case,
there are a couple other conspirators that we can come
back to, but I think we've mentioned the main players,
(11:29):
which is Wells, Armstrong and rothen Steam. So on August
twenty eight, two thousand and three, at about two point
thirty pm, Brian Wells enters the PNC Bank in Erie, Pennsylvania.
He came in with a cane in his hand and
a collar around a T shirt. He goes to the
(11:50):
teller and he says, I want you to gather all
the taillers together with their balt access codes and put
two hundred and fifty.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Thousand dollars in this bag. You have fifteen minutes.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
And he lifted his shirt to show this heavy box,
the device that had been wrapped around his neck and
down to his chest and told the tellers the bomb.
The teller told the Wells that she couldn't get everybody.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
To the vault.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
All she could do is put the money that was
in the cash doors in his bag, which was eighty
seven hundred dollars thereabouts, and he took a dumb, dumb lollipop.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Very calmly through this whole process, Wells takes the lollipop.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Grabs the eight thousand dollars, and he leaves. He gets
into his car and starts driving away. About fifteen minutes later,
Carlos he's spotted by Pennsylvania State troopers.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
He's standing outside at Geo Metro.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
This must be like a gas station, and they surround
him and they tossed him to the pavement.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
They cut him, and Wells.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Tells the troopers that he was out on delivery and
had been costed by a group of black men who
chained the bomb around his neck at gunpoint and forced
him to rob a bank. He said, the bomb's going
to go off, and so the troopers did the prudent thing.
They all, you know, got behind their patrol cars and
called in the bomb squad. So he's sitting there and this,
by the way, goes out quickly. And of course who's
(13:11):
listening to police dispatch?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yeah, the media too, well, the bad guys certainly, but
the media also. So it wasn't there wasn't very long
that the media comes. And so to our listeners who
are interested, you can go to the internet. There's a
lot of video, not just the Netflix uh documentary, there's
a lot of videos showing what happens. What happens is well,
starts to panic. He's sitting there with the troopers at
(13:41):
one point, apparently concerned that his boss and employer may
think that he was not working, and said, can you
call my boss? And suddenly the device of these warnings
starts beeping. The beating starts increasing, and it's and it's
uh volume, and it goes off. It rips a five
(14:04):
inch gash in his chest and he dies. This is
about three fifteen PM, so from the time that he
committed the robbery at twoint thirty, we're looking at forty
five minutes. This is important because in that time that
he died, the bomb squad arrives three minutes afterwards he deceased.
(14:25):
They do a search of his vehicle, and they find
this cane that he was carrying was actually an ingeniously
crafted homemade gun. So now they start collecting evidence. They
you know, look at what's on his body, what's in
his car, and they find not just this very unique
bomb which had six inch pipe bombs loaded with double
(14:46):
based smokeless powder. What they found was in his possession
a series of quote unquote scavenger hunt clues and in
this handwrit fighting that the investigators found in his car,
it was addressed bomb.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Hostage instruction notes, and it says.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Rob the bank of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars,
then follow these instructions in.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Order to gain the keys for your release.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
So in theory, Wells was supposed to follow these maps
details to certain locations and ordered in order for him
to survive this bomb. It says in this note, this
is only one way you can survive.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
And that So this is almost like a plot from
a movie, like what was that.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Movie called, I think it was called Speed with with
the Leaves and yeah, yeah, so so it's sort of
like one of those plots, right, this is this is
life imitating art, and so in this car there were
drawings and different detailed maps.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Or the bomber the Wells to follow in order to
gain his release.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
What's also interesting is that he was wearing a T
shirt and the T shirt was guest clothing logo. It
was not his typical T shirt. He had two T
shirts on this one was over the where the bomb
was placed, and the investigators later think that the bomber.
The signature of this bomber was to have the clue
(16:19):
guests logo for the investigators to figure out you know,
whether or not this was part of the puzzle or
part of the game plan for Robin the Bank. Long
and short is that the police officers theaters after the
bomb investigation began, tried to follow the various clues and
(16:39):
found that the second clue led him to a bottle,
but the bottle was empty, which they theorized the bad
guys knew that this was never to be fulfilled.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
There was never enough time for the bomber in.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Forty five minutes to go through all the clues that
would get them to the end and gain their freedom.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
In other words, the theory was that whoever strapped.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
The bomb on Wells intended Wells to die from that bomb.
His co conspirators never intended to rob the bank.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
They wanted to kill Wells for some reason. So then
it became a function of trying to identify who.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
These people might be, right, and so the investigation continued,
didn't go very far in two thousand and three, but
a month later our suspect, William Bill Rothison brought the scene.
He calls he calls the police nine to eleven, you know,
nine one, one September twentieth, and he claims that he lives.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Near a television tower and that there's a body of
a man named James Roden who's stuffed in his freezer
in his garage.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
He tells the police that he's written a suicide note
that over a period of the last several weeks he
had considered killing himself and he just he couldn't bear
having this person in his freezer any longer.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
So of course the police come and they find a note,
a suicide note.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
And what's interesting in the suicide note is it reads
a disclaimer that this has nothing to do.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
With the Wells case. He blamed.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Yeah, very odd because what would his potential suicide and
or a dead body in the freezer, why would the
police even think it had anything to do with the
Wells case. There's no connection except the fact that he.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Put it in the suicide note right.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
He goes on and explains to the police in an
interview over the course of two days that the dead
man came to his freezer in mid August of that
year after he received.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
The telephone call from who who do you think? Game?
A call?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
It was Marjorie Harmstrom. Marjorie. Yeah, he's old plane from
the sixties.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
So his girlfriend from the sixties calls him and says, hey,
I shot my boyfriend James Roaden in the back with
a twelve game shotgun.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Can you come over and get him his body?
Speaker 4 (19:14):
We had a fight over money, so playing you know,
here's a motive for Robin a bank by the way.
So she shoots Rodan in the back, calls the ex boyfriend,
and this mope Robinstein goes to her place.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
According to the story, he goes.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Over there, collects the corpse and sticks Rodan in the
chest breezer of his garage for five weeks. Then, because
he's a good friend, he melts down the murder weapon.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
He claims.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
He scatters the pieces around the Erie County in different locations,
but he said he couldn't go through the plan of
killing himself right now. Having having said that, this guy
has non hot spot because formally he's got a you know,
he's got a terminal disease, but he couldn't, you know,
(20:03):
bring himself to kill himself. So September twenty one, after
a couple of days after he a day after he
made the phone call, they arrested Armstrong for the murder
of Rodent. So sixteen months later, in January about five,
she played guilty but mentally inconfident, and she was sent
(20:25):
to seven to twenty years in state prison for that murder.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
But here's the thing, fascinating time in July sevenths for
being here, we really appreciated.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Investigators working point welcome. You're welcome, actually played together.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Thank you everyone for listening as well. Surely appreciated. Remember
sharing subscribes failed podcast. Thanks again.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
The federal investigators couldn't. They didn't solve the mystery at
that point. That doesn't happen until two thousand and five
when they get a phone call from a state police
officer who had met with Armstrong.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Here she comes again.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
So Armstrong is now in prison for the Rodin murder,
and she decides that she wants to cooperate, and she
tells the police that.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Wrote that Rosenstein's Rothenstein's.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Suicide note was a lie and says that Rodin's verda
had everything to do with the collar bomb plot or
the pizza bomb whatever, you know, It's been called several names.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
So she says, hey, I'll meet with the FED if.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
You can arrange a transfer from the state prison to
the minimum security federal prison, which is much closer to Erie, Pennsylvania.
So that's what happens, Carlos. So she starts cooperating in
two thousand and five.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
She thinks that she can put everything on Rothenstein, who
is dead. He died in two thousand and four. So
she starts talking to the authorities about the murders and
the you know, bringing wells in and the plot to
rob the bank, and she's depending everything on the Rothsteine.
But by giving the evidence, you know, to the police,
(22:13):
to the FBI, she's implicating herself.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
So paying him two thousand bucks to hold the body,
and then Rothstein said that he was afraid not to
because of her.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah, right, and so yeah, she's going, you know, going back,
going back to you know, her background a little bit
back in high school. According to former classmates, she was
known for her intelligence. I mean, she possessed an almost
most almost encyclopedia like mind on history, law, and literature.
(22:46):
Her but she suffered, as you mentioned earlier, from bipolar disorder.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So she would have these sharp mood swings, right, and
and she had this very very caustic and very volatile
anger management issue.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
And so you know, she was very tough to be
around for any length of time because she had some
difficulties maintaining relationships. She met with the prosecutors for several
interviews during this period of time in two thousand and five,
and she went.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Over that Wells, the dead pizza guy, was just a.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Victim, but he had been on you know, in on
the planning as well as you know, in the bankrupty.
And this becomes a big bone of contention, if you will, between.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Wells family and his wife, his lately his widow, and
the other co conspirators because.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
And eventually the federal prosecutors in this case say that
Wells was knowledgeable of the conspiracy, even though he may
have thought that the bomb was in earth, whereas Armstrong.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Says that he was in on the whole thing, that
in fact, she asserts that Rose Rothstein was the.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Man who turned her and for you know, the Rodin
murder was in fact the mastermind of the whole bombing,
the whole bank robbery, and so forth, she pointed the
finger of rocken Stein, and she implicated herself even more
by giving more information. So then in two thousand and five,
several months after she started talking, the FED got another
(24:20):
break a guy by name of Ken Barnes. Did you
talk about Ken Barnes earlier? I think maybe it's a
good time.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah. He was another co consperrat.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
So he comes forward and he said that an old
fishing body of Armstrong.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
He was an old fishing buddy of Armstrong, that he.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Spoke freely about the plan and brother in law turn
him in while Barnes was already in jail on unrelated
drug charges, and Barnes agreed to a deal. He said
he would give a full account of the pizza bombing
for a reduced sentence. So he confirmed to the FED
that Armstrong was, he says, the mastermind behind the bomb plot.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
He claimed that she needed cash, which kind of goes
back to the Rodin murder, right.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
They fought over money and said that she could pay
Barnes to help her kill her father.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
She believed her father was worth a lot.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Of money, and so she needed money to pay a
hitman to kill her father.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And the pizza robbery. So you see how convolue this
is getting.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Right, Absolutely, it's all about money really for her at
this point.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Yes, right, So it sort of like playing a game
of chess and she was moving pieces and so according
to Barnes, Armstrong was getting people to get money through.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
This failed bank robbery. The purpose of the money was for.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Him to be paid so he could help her kill
her father, who she believed was wealth. He turns out
he didn't have a whole lot of money, but in
any case, February two thousand and six, federal agents met
with Armstrong again. This time she brings her attorney. She
gets very indignant belligerent when they start talking about the case,
(26:03):
and basically she implicates herself further in the Wells Bank robbery.
July two thousand and seven, about a month from the
four year anniversary of the pizza bombing, the United States
Attorney's Office files charges against Armstrong and Barnes for carrying
(26:25):
out the crime. The theory from the prosecutor, Mary bet
Buchanan was it Wells was part of the planning but
became an unwilling participant when he found out that the
big bomb was real. He tried to run and they
held him at gunpoint and put the device around his neck.
(26:47):
And at that point he was kind of like in
a bad situation. The relatives of Wells that you can imagine,
did not agree with the federal prosecutors in this particular case,
though they decided to go to trial. It was a
five day trial in Aree Federal Courthouse and during that trial,
(27:10):
the big witness was the ex crack dealer Barnes, who
did receive a reduced.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Sentence, and he basically told.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Everyone that he, you know, that he was part of
the conspiracy and Armstrong was the mastermind behind us the
conspiracy to rob the bank. As it turns out, barnes
testimony uh really ticked off Armstrong, who decided to to testify.
And while Barnes was testifying, Armstrong yelled out, you know
(27:41):
wire and the judge ad monish her. She got her
day in court on the eighth day of the trial,
and she basically just belittled the prosecutor and ranted about
her innocence. She was then convicted and she was sentenced
to life in prison. As it turns out, life for
(28:04):
her wasn't.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
That long because she contracted cancer and she died in
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And that's that would be the end of the investigation,
you would think, except that there's still there's still this theory.
One of the investigators, these Humer FBI agent retired FBI
agent is.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
His first name was is escaping meeting. His last name
is Fisher, and Fisher is one of the retired agents
believes that based on the behavioral.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Analysis you know, my old unit's profile of the collar
bomber as he was known, that the opinion of the
department is that there was much more than merely a
bank robbery. According to the BAU, the behavioral analysts that
looked at the case, behavior scene in this crime seems.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Choreographed by the signature of the.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Bomb manufacturer, if you will, that the collar bomber was
watching from the sidelines through this whole kind of scripted drama,
and it bates on the complex nature of the crime.
Bau believed that there were multiple motives for the offender
and money was not the primary one. In other words,
the robbery was never the point. The idea was to
(29:26):
set up a puzzle, a beguiling.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Puzzle that would resist explanation for years on end.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
According to Fisher, he doesn't think that Armstrong was the
mastermind behind this. He looks back at the FBI's profile,
saying that he's comfortable with a wide variety of power
tools that were needed for developing and manufacturing this bomb,
and that points to one person.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
That's Bill Robinstein. Robinstein was a frugal person who sinks
the scraps of different.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Materials for various projects, and he was ingenius and developing
different mechanical parts.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
And according to Fisher, he.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Believes that Rothstein, who was this handyman who could fabricut
just about anything, was booking to concoct a puzzle that
police officers would not be able to solve. That he
what he called nine to one one and fingered Armstrong.
He did so with the intended purpose of shifting blame,
(30:29):
knowing that he was terminally ill to Armstrong and knowing
that if the clues led him to Armstrong, she would
be the lightly candidate for mission, and that this would
be an unsolved crime. That until his dying day, he
would be insulating himself.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
In Fisher's words, he would be controlling the narrative.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
One of the things that when Fisher was interviewed, I
believe for the documentary, he said, the son of a
bitch ended up winning. He died with all the seat.
He died and taken all he answered with him. He
gets the last laugh.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
In that sense. He escaped punishment, He escaped detention, detection.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
He left us with a bunch of idiots and a
bunch of questions, is what Fisher says. And uh, and
that seems to be and according to Fisher's opinion, that
seems to be what bro Brocken scenes ultimate trying.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
He died a freeman, uh while he set up the
rest of these patches, if you will, uh holding the bag.
Pretty interesting case, Yeah, yeah, pretty interesting and interesting too
because the nature of it was played out on live TV. Uh,
(31:43):
because you know, media gets to these these scenes fairly quickly.
There was there were a half dozen newspeople, uh from
the various you know, parts of erie there to give
different angles of the bomb going off and killing killing wealth.
What's interesting too is that it wasn't broadcast today. It
(32:06):
would be like the next day beyond YouTube or something.
But it took several days, but eventually the video got
to an ABC affiliate and down I believe in Washington,
DC one oh one, a shock jockey DC one on one,
leaked the footage and that's how how it became public
that he was blown up.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
So pretty interesting case involving some pretty interesting characters.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
And I would encourage, you know, if you want to
see who've done it? Kind of thing that the documentary
on Netflix that they want to watch.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Just a couple of things, Folks, those forensic psychology fans
out there bi polar disorder. When they've done studies in
regards to by polar disorder and violent crime, they're more prevalent,
uh compared people with depression, but not as prevalent compared
to people as psychosis. And again, not everybody who has
bipolar disorder becomes a criminal by any means. I was
(33:04):
looking at intelligence and by polar disorder, there's only a
small correlation when it comes to males, not females. But
the interesting part is there is a link between creativity
and by a polar disorder as well, so it's schizophreni
as well. So this is a fascinating one because there
is a link there, and she was supposedly a gifted musician,
(33:24):
which falls under the tagline I guess of creativity. So
just some interesting the footnotes there for people if you're
into that stuff, criminology and whatnot. You got a little
bit more data, I.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Think, Yeah, another thing too call us.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
You know, as we look at these cases, I'm always fascinated,
as you know, as a former investigator, you know what
the break in the case was.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
What was the thing that in like in this particular case,
what was it? Was it physical evidence? Was it an
individual or a human who provided testimony?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
So what really brings the case to some closure for
not just the victim and victims family, but for the
community as well.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
And in this particular case, it seems the motive is
you know, you and I have often.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
Talked about you know, PEPs personal, economic, political, or social,
and in this case it certainly seems economic that the
needs for the majority of the cocin spurs. They were
motivated from Wells to Barnes to Armstrong by money. They
thought there was this attraction. But in the back of
this the real puppet master, if you will, rocket seeing.
(34:34):
I don't think he was interested in money. He had
a terminal disease.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
He was interested.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I think like Fisher talks about and the Bau talks
about manipulating others and using his intellect to prove how
smart he was, even though he was never accomplished. He
really didn't make much of his life. He wanted to.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
He wanted to prove he was smarter than everybody else
in the room.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
And in this particular case, the investigation was solved because
of two things. The cooperation between the state police, who
you know, notified the FBI of this link. And and
obviously the biggest break in the case was Armstrong and
her own narcissism uh in her her thinking that she
could pin this on a dead man brodaste and and
(35:18):
and prevent herself from being convicted for the same murder.
And that was her undoing and that was the basis
of solving this investments started opening her mouth.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
And that behavior from is very common too, especially if
you have authoritarian type parents or parents who never acknowledged
anything that you did. And we're talking severe folks. This
isn't something where you forget to say something to your child.
You got the memories or extremes. But Rossing was probably
neglected quite a bit, maybe criticized heavily. So nothing he
(35:51):
did was good enough. And uh, do you like to
exploit his suppose of intelligence?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
And well, it's not just that, it's also there's also
there's also a pretty big divide in this case of
intellect between Armstrong and Rothensteine and Barnes and Wells.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Wells was not an intellectual. He left a high school
as a sophomore, uh.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
To start working as a mechanic. He was a pizza
delivery guy. He was a simple guy, even by his
own his own family's account. This is this is not
a sophisticated man. Barnes had a drug addiction, needed money.
So when you look at Armstrong and you look at Rothesstine,
these individuals had the intellect and ability to manipulate others.
(36:38):
What is really funny, it's funny in the sense ironic,
is that they were also manipulating each other. You had
Roethlistine using Armstrong right, and Armstrong then trying to use rough.
These people dated that they supposedly had a romantic past,
but she was quick to put the murders on on
(36:59):
Rothsteine and he he was certainly quick enough to call
the police and put it on her.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Oh. Absolutely. And I think they bumped into each other
at that point. I think Broston I think mentioned at
one point I told you earlier he was scared of her,
so she probably ran and ran her course with him,
and he kind of gave up on that and moved along.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Like ke Scorpion's right strike the other person quicker. Yeah,
it's really really strange, and.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
You and I have seen it before. They turned on
each other pretty quickly once they get in front of
the law enforcement people.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah. Better trait of sociopaths.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, so pass really have no connection to anybody, so
they could really care less. I think sometimes they're going
to take credit for well most of the serrachillas who
were they don't do that super.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Yeah. The sociopath has the ability to uh feign empathy
but not really feel empathy, right, Yeah, so they can't
have sort of relationships you have. I mean, not not
to change the subject, but Dan Raider, the the yeah
BTK killer, I mean, he had he had a family, right,
not a It's not unknown for a serial killer a
(38:13):
sociopath to have a normal life outside of their of
their maladaptive life.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I think that's what's happening is that there they were
dividing them that into three categories, where you have anti
social personality disorder, psychopaths and sociopaths. Sociopath being the more
violent of a bunch, more like a Ted Bundy psychopath,
also has similar traits to that. Psychopaths they tend to
derive more from genetic issues sociopaths or more nurturing issues,
(38:44):
at least that's what they're believing. And then the anti
social personality disorted, it's not raider, but it'd be more
like a made off rad psychopath.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, we used to use that b a U.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
We use the mad, sad or bad, right. And and
the difference being the mad and the bad, right was
the mad person was crazy, was you know, uh, had
some clinical illness. The bad person was just a bad person,
anti social. He just never was culturally assimilated. Uh, and
(39:20):
and never accepted rules that that you know that they.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Were bound to. H They played by their own rules.
And so that's how we looked at them.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
And then the sad person was, you know, the person
who's depressed and bipolar and all that good stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Absolutely, I think this. Yeah, in this case, I don't.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
I mean, she was diagnosed with mental disorder. I don't
see any of that history with Rothstein. I think Rothenstein
was just uh, just.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
A bad guy.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I think I can see was he might have been
a psychopath just because of his uh employment history. But again,
we have very little knowledge of everything that's really going on.
I mean, obviously he likes some kind of empathy by
keeping that corpse in the freezer for five weeks too. Yeah, yeah,
I mean that's not nor behavior.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Very stream Yeah, a very very odd case, but a
very ancient cases. You know, it knows what greed I'm
mixed with with nets can do.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Hey, folks, Also, if you want us to cover any
other cases or topics, let us know on the comments section. Andy,
thanks again.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Interesting, Hey, Cardles, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We'll break it up a little bit there, but thank
you everyone.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
It's interesting conversation. I can't wait till our next one.
And you should watch that Netflix documentary.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Absolutely, Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure to share and
subscribe to support our podcast.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Sure, you go to my website, Oh Behavioral Science. You
at LLC dot com
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Thet you go, Thanks Carlos
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