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January 4, 2023 • 42 mins
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(00:01):
Hi, everyone. This is Californiaand you've a podcast that brings you the
latest news from across California. Nowhere's your host, doctor Carlos. Welcome
back, everybody. We continue ourseries. I'm looking into the situation at
the University of Idaho and the fourtragic murders, as well as the suspect

(00:26):
Coburger. He's just a suspect.It's allegedly that he killed him. So
that's how we want to do this. But first welcome my co host Andrew
Bringle, former FBI profiler. Youcan also find more about him at Behavioral
Science untllc dot com. Welcome back, Andy, Hey Carlos. A beautifully
ugly day here in Central New York. As we're speaking. It's the fourth

(00:50):
day of January twenty twenty three,and I'm looking out my window at the
lake which is frozen at least partially, and it's a cloudy, ugly fog.
You can't even see lake the fog. But I'm happy to be here
with you, and we're going totalk about the processes of what's going on
in Idaho as well as in generalterms, the types of criminal behaviors and

(01:15):
acts that one might might see andthink that they have heard in the media
and other sources regarding the case inIdaho. Yeah, and the interesting thing,
folks is, again, we don'tknow if he did this or not.
He has to be convicted and itis proving guilty. But every time
I read a news article that youknow, they're going to trickle in information

(01:36):
each and every who knows, everyfew days, you're going to get a
new story about the individual right nowthe perpetrator. And that makes us think.
And so we want to elaborate onthe areas that they're touching on because
I think they're really fascinating areas fordiscussion. And one of the areas though
Andy and I were talking about,was some media sites I don't know who,

(01:57):
but some media sites or kind ofteasing the idea or alluding to the
fact that the suspect or whoever themurderer was of the four the four college
students as a serial killer. They'renot saying it outright and not saying it
directly, but they're starting to bringup it's called a it's an association game

(02:19):
in psychology. So what they'll dois they'll talk about serial killer actions and
then try to compare it or atleast try to bring it into the conversations
that people immediately associated with it.And honestly, my personal opinion, I
think it's just clickbait. That's whatthey're trying to do because they know most
people are fascinated about serial killers,and that was the interesting thing Andy,
This guy was fascinated about serial killers. I think he was doing a dissertation

(02:40):
one mostly on the emotional and cognitivecomponents of a criminal. I don't know
if it was specifically towards serial killersor not, but I know he had
a relationship with a famous how wouldyou call her, a famous professor professor
research, Yeah, in the worldof forensic psych and she dealt a lot

(03:01):
with serial killers. I think she'seven written books about it. And I
think he had a relationship with her, a business type of relationship or academic
relationship, not a personal one,and he learned a lot about that.
But go ahead, Yeah, Iwould say a couple of things. One,
you know, we're not talking aboutit at least, I'm not talking
about any specific individual, and certainlynot talking about the defendant in this case,

(03:23):
who has his day will have hisday in court, and that's not
the focus of this podcast. Whatwe're going to talk about and what I
want to explore is some of thefascinating aspects of this type of chrome serial
killers in general, not any specificindividuals. It's certainly not directed to the

(03:47):
subject in this particular investigation. Youmentioned though, that there is some association
in terms of interest from a researchstandpoint, If we looked at everybody who
was fascinated with serial killers as apotential subject in this investigation, you'd have
millions of individuals. Is the mostpopular topic. Of course, people are

(04:09):
naturally a lot of people are naturallyinterested. First of all, we got
to look at the crime scene atan Idaho and to determine what type of
murder. And you know, peoplefrom music to crime like the label stuff,
right, what is it country music? Is it pop music? Is
it classical? Is this a serialkiller? Active shoot, mass murder,

(04:30):
spree killer? If you look strictlyat the definitions, you know, I'll
give you some serial killer is typicallya person who murders three or more people,
right, But here's a significant pieceon serial killer. There is a
significant period of time between the murders. Authorities, you know, debate whether
it should be three or four ormore bodies or murders. But the critical

(04:55):
piece is context. We tell youand I have talked about context from a
researcher and investigative standpoint, time andspace are critically important. That's what defines
context. So there has to bea number of murders separated by time and
space. I'll give you some interestingfacts about serialcis. We remember them by

(05:15):
their name, not the location.Right, So we know Ted Bundy,
we know Ed Kemper, We knowDennis Raider, the BTK killer. We
know by the way Dennis Raider gavehimself the nickname BTK, the bind torture
Kill Murderer, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. I mean, there's a bunch of
They're often known by their name,and serial killers have a cult personality in

(05:39):
some cases. You know, soTed Bundy, for example, a lot
of people are fascinated with his life. And you mentioned earlier, and we're
going to talk a bit more aboutthis. A number Ed Kemper and Ted
Bundy well above, and jeff Dahmertoo. Jeffrey Dahmer all had much higher
than average intelligence. And we'll talkabout some of the traits that are in

(06:00):
serial killers. But serial killers aredifferent than active shooters, which describes a
type of mass murder marked right byrapidity, scale and randomness. And oftentimes
in active shooter cases, you'll havesuicide kid goes into a school, shoots
up the school and then kills himself. Keybold and Eric Harrison and Dylan Keybold

(06:23):
are two examples of that in Columbine. Right, Stephen Paddock, Las Vegas
shooter that killed himself. Salvador Ramosin you've all the Texas Nicholas Cruz didn't
kill himself, but you know he'snow on death row, I believe in
Florida. What's interesting about active shootersdifferent than serial killers is we often don't

(06:45):
remember the shooter. We often rememberit by the location. The Las Vegas
shooter, right, that's Stephen Paddock, the columnbuine case. I think it's
actually even better, less attention forthem, but I know that. But
my point it's it's interesting how themedia and then the public remembers these events.
Whereas serial killers are often known bytheir personality and the individual. Because

(07:06):
we're fascinated by what makes you knowed kemper tick behavioral signs you to focused
on that, right, Active shooterswere more focused on the location, right,
So it's the Pulse Nightclub, OmarMatin. Nobody remembers Omar Matin.
Everybody remembers Orlando and the Pulse nightClub or Colinbine or Parkland High School in

(07:30):
Florida. And what's interesting about activeshooters is that they're often acts of rage,
like school shootings. Right. Sothe when we heard back in Idaho,
let's bring this back to Idaho,the police were theorizing that it was
either the house being the target orthe individuals being a target, and the
media was trying to make a bigdeal about that and people confused. Well,
the reality is that active shooters oftentarget a location, a school,

(07:55):
and then the victims are indiscriminate.Whereas a serial killer will target an individual,
they'll often stalk and they'll plan themurders. Dennis Raider often stalked his
prey because they think of themselves asalmost as hunters, and they want the
kill to be up close and personal. Serial Killers like Dennis Raider bind torture

(08:18):
kill. He wanted to look theindividuals in the face and take their life
away from them because oftentimes, andthere was a big research project at the
Behaeral sign show at the FBI wherethey studied the mindset of these types of
killers, serial killers, and theyhave a high need for control. Something
we're going to talk about in thispodcast and a podcasts we're going to do

(08:39):
a little later on romance is thatthe distinction and the balance between trust and
control and so a lot of timesin serial killers, and we can go
through some of the histories of someof these individuals. Early in their life,
they suffered some trauma, oftentimes itwas sexual trauma, and their trust
was broken because their bil was gone. So a lot like you know,

(09:05):
children that have are young people thathave been abused who then become abusers themselves.
Their victims are representative that loss ofcontrol. They're trying to get that
control again. And at the extremeof that is a serial killer who was
literally strangling. Lack of empathy isa common trait among serial killers, and
Dennis Raider this is one of themost chilling parts of his history. The

(09:28):
first family he killed was I thinka family of four parents. He had
the the eleven year old and eightyear old watch as he strangled and killed
both parents. The young daughter toldher mom, I love you, mommy.
Her mom was having her life strangledout of her, choked out of
her. Dennis Raider then took thedaughter down to the to the basement,

(09:48):
hung her upside down and Josephi Ithink was her name on going by memory.
But the young girl turned to DennisRaider and said, what's going to
happen to me? And he says, you're going to go to heaven with
your family, and then he chokedher to death. Now that story was
told by Dennis Raider, who showedno remorse, no empathy at all in

(10:09):
his trial, and he just matterof fact, we told how he killed
these people. But there was asexual component the Dennis Raider and often number
of these serial killers. He wouldtake trophies with him, wear these garments,
the underwear of his victims, anddress himself up, you know,
and as women, and then wouldpractice auto asphyxiation. So he would he

(10:31):
would masturbate until he was almost passedout and then he would release his sexual
tension. Oftentimes we see that amongserial killers. So back to the active
sharers. You don't see that theseare usually targeted locations, whether it's Orlando
nightclub, Dylan Rufe attacked a church, killed number of people. So Oftentimes

(10:56):
you'll either have emotional rage that leadsto an active shooter or you'll have a
targeted terrorism or hate that leads toan active shooter case, and that's what
distinctions. Then you have mass murders. Now, mass murders can be both
an active shooter or a serial killercan kill more people. Dennis Raider I
gave an example, killed the wholefamily at one time. But it's the

(11:18):
act of murdering a number of people, typically simultaneously, over relatively short period
of time and in close geographic proximity. United States Congress defines mass killings as
killing three or more people during oneevent with no coolant off period. And
then the last one that we're goingto discuss as a spree killer, and
it's someone who commits a criminal actthat involves two or more murders or homicides

(11:43):
in a short period of time,but in multiple locations. So there's been
several cases like that. There wasa white supremacist that was I think in
Chicago, shot up a synagogue andthen went to another location. Was Benjamin
I think his name was. There'stoo many, Yeah, there's a bunch,

(12:03):
but go to one location, youshoot some people go to another location
shoot some people. That's a spreekiller, Okay, And those are the
distinctions that we can make in thesecases. Now, having said that,
Idaho, what best fits the definitionof Idaho mass murder? Mass murder?
We have four victims, short periodof time, geographic proximity, all in

(12:26):
the same house, So we havea mass murder. We don't know if
we have a serial killer. Itwasn't an active shooter as it was stabbing,
but that's what I would I considerthis as a mass murder. Now
the next thing is contact, timeand space and motive PEPs. As you
and I have talked about another podcast. All crimes are committed based on an

(12:48):
amalgam of four four dimensions, onebeing personal could be revenge, could be
anger, rage, could be theimpulses or compulses of a serial killer.
Economic you're doing it to rob someplace, burglarize some place, even though he

(13:09):
was charged with burglary. I believethis defendant. They'll have to prove the
elements of that charge. But isthere an economic incentive to someone's act?
Then political or power based would bethe third, and then social do they
do it for a group or agroup's cause? So those are the things

(13:31):
that police will look at as theybuild their case and the processes of these
investigations. They look at the timeand space context of the act as well
as the potential motive of the individualmight have had, as you know,
and we've talked about this, andthen we'll get into the serial killers.
Murder is a state charge. It'snot a federal charge. There's no such

(13:54):
thing as federal murder unless because there'salways an un less or an exception in
the federal system. It's not murderunless it involves terrorism or hate crime.
So there's some federal statutes that thatput enhance penalties where there's terrorism involved involving
a murder for hate crime or terrorism, or it's an assault on a federal

(14:18):
officer. So we've talked about thisin the past. I worked the case
where a federal judge was blown upwith a bomb, and so assault on
federal officer can result in the deathof that officer, and that's a federal
charge. And then last is crimeson a government reservation, so that would
include you know, murdering someone orhomicide. Right, So that's that kind

(14:41):
of sets up where we're at now. I wanted you and I to talk
a little bit about some of thecommon traits that you know, just in
terms of serial killers, what youmight see in the history of unfortunately too
long a history of serial killers.Yeah, it's interesting because I want to
make sure people understand that it's muchmore complex than the media or TV shows

(15:03):
will put make it out to theSo you heard Andy already giving you four
different types of killers, and thenwithin those are subcategories people who have mental
health issues. Maybe they're psychotic,mabe, they're delusional, people are on
substance abuse. We'll both combined.A lot of times the substances themselves can
exacerbate their psychosis. Sometimes they're not, sometimes they have other issues. So

(15:24):
it's so complex, it's not verysimple. That's why there's so many differences.
And even the FBI says it's oneof the hardest things to do is
profile somebody because there are so manyvariables at play that it becomes really complicated
to do that, to try tofigure out the motive, not the motive,
but the reason, not the reasonbehind it, but the how would
you say, the internal drive ofthat individual, Not necessarily the motive,

(15:48):
because the motive can be simple.Sometimes even though they're still trying to find
a connection in this case. I'mgoing to just kind of give some more
facts about this case to the peopleout there. This is from open source
in New York Times. He hearda coburger, the suspect, answer several
questions from the judge. He askedhim if he was mentally taking medications.
He said he was not. Sothis is going to throw people off as

(16:11):
well, just because he asked themthat. There's a lot of other variables
here. He might have never goneto see anybody. He may be off
the medications. Now we've seen someother we've seen individuals in the past,
not others, but we've seen individualsin the past that have gone into spree
killings or mass murdering that have beenoff their medications. And you pointed out
earlier, and some have been onthe medications as well, taken too much

(16:33):
or whatever it may be. Butsome of them, most of the time
that I see, it's usually offand now all of a sudden that increases
their psychosis or well, you knowwhat's interesting on that point. What's interesting
is a pretty famous profile at thebehavior signed Roy Hazelwood, one of the
old vanguard, you know, ofthe behavior science. You know, you
know, along with Douglas and therest of them, wrestler, he's known

(16:57):
for developing the theory of an organizedor disorganized crime scene. And you look
at the case in Idaho, andagain not talking about anybody who's you know,
specific guilt or innocence, but justthe crime scene itself and the way
they it was processed. What wasreleased to the need through the media open

(17:18):
source is that it was a veryhorrific crime scene. A lot of blood,
victims that were not positioned that theywere killed and left where they were
killed. There was just a lotof horrific, gory details to the crime

(17:41):
scene. What would be described inRoy Hazelwood's model as a disorganized crime scene.
When you look at the traits ofsomeone who is responsible for a disorganized
crime scene, particularly you know,someone who has been a a serial killer

(18:03):
that they studied, This individual isusually young. This person usually has a
past history of drug use or ison drugs at the time of the killing.
Now, when we say, youknow, those are some of the
traits that they've seen, common traits, again not pointing to any individual,
they can look at the crime sceneto determine particularly in this case, whether

(18:30):
there was what type of motive wasbehind it? You know, uh what
was it a crime of passion?Was this a the outgrowth of rage or
some intermittent explosive or disorder that thisindividual might have had. So all of
that comes into play, not somuch in terms of prosecution, but in

(18:52):
the processes of the investigation and winnowingout potential suspects so that they can eventually
find the subject that might be responsiblefor the crime. I wanted to ask
you this, We'll take the suspectout of it right now, but I
thought you might find this entertaining.So there's an expert that was interviewed in
a news channel. I'm not goingto name the expert or the news channel.

(19:15):
His claim. He says, ifyou look at this case criminology one
O one, the perpetrator, whoeverit is, is a moron, according
to him, because if you havea person who studied criminology, they should
have known that if you were goingto kill these individuals, you should have
killed them outdoors where there's a lotless chance of having evidence. The weather

(19:37):
could have destroyed it, the elements, the animals and so forth. And
if you're going to stock somebody.The worst place to kill him is indoors,
so he's kind of giving. Well, listen, it's not a rational
act, is it to go intoa where there are six people in the
home. Whoever did this was notacting irrationally. If we define rational behavi

(20:00):
is making sense by your norms ormind. But to this individual, it
was perfectly rational. I don't listen. You know we've talked about this.
I'm a rational choice theorist. Idon't like the term. I think it
should be called reasoned choice theory,because humans reason, and this individual went
through a process of reasoning and thecost of benefit. The risk of going

(20:21):
into an occupied home, not knowingif there's a gun, not knowing if
these people who are awake or sleeping, the risk of doing that is very
high, And so the individual hadto have enough confidence to think that they
could get in and out without beingcaught, that they get overpower at least

(20:41):
four people right with nothing more thana fixed bladed knine, And so really
nobody would get out and run andyell exactly yes, or scream or wake
the people up downstairs, any oneof which could have made a phone call
nine to one one Very quickly,So it's not rational. You know,
I listen and I'm one of themmyself. So I'm not going to criticize

(21:03):
people to get on these talk showsand and and fill airtime, some of
whom have really good insight and goodanalysis and others maybe not so much.
I will say this, it doesn'tmake sense to kill and butcher for people,
not anyway. It just doesn't makesense. So if you're trying to

(21:26):
make sense of nonsensical uh you know, behavior, then uh yeah, you're
gonna you're gonna scratch your head andsay, well, why didn't he stalk
him outside? And why didn't heshoot him instead of stab him? And
why? Those are all good questionsto ask, you know in the police
interviews. You know, it's interestingthat I'm looking now at the New York

(21:47):
Post. I'll give them a shoutout because this is the article. I'm
reading it, but I'm not criticizingit. It's only presenting information that they've
come up so far with the suspect, Ryan Koberger. He grew up in
Pokernos with his parents and nothing thereunderwent suppose underwent radical changes during his later
teenage years. And if you've heardmy podcast and before folks, you know,
it's usually one of my flags tokind of start looking at something when

(22:11):
you have one of these, ifyou have a mass shooter or a serial
killer, whatever action out of asericode, usually a mass shooter, mass
murderer, any of those individuals isstart looking at that behavior. In the
late teens, but a Pleasant ValleyHigh school assessment was known as an awkward
creep, which you know, that'ssubjective, who repelled girls and reportedly struggled
with a heroin addiction. So nowis our first time that we've seen a

(22:34):
substance abuse comment being made, atleast the first time I've seen it.
Maybe you've seen it too, Idon't know, but that's the first time
I've seen it. Look at Ilook at drug abuse as a personal trauma.
Loss of a parent is also trauma. A lots of a parent through

(22:56):
drug use has got to be doublewami drama. That the there's a young
person again, I'm not going totalk about guilt Ernest's but there was a
young person arrested in New York Ithink it was Christmas or New Year's Eve
who stabbed a couple of police officersright with a machete. They are suspecting
ties to Islamic radicalism. This individualwent through behavioral changes late teens. Right

(23:22):
before that, was a well adjustedyoung man, wrestled on his team and
all that stuff. The point beingthat, yes, you're right, a
lot of teenagers go through you know, traumatic experiences and how we deal with
those those traumatic events in our livesthat determine what course of behavior we choose

(23:44):
going forward. And there might havebeen you know, circumstances in the life
of whoever is responsible for the Idahoviolence that we can point to in retrospect
and say, wow, here's whatyou in their behavior. But you know,
and and and I know you're notdoing this. But some people say,
well, you know, we can, we can look look for those

(24:07):
red flags. It's not that easy. It's not that easy because in and
of itself, those behaviors don't indicateanything leading up to the butchering of four
people in a in a frat houseand on a college campus. Not great
points. Yeah, it's a greatpoint. Remember, there is a lot
of I always say, there's alot of ingredients that are needed to create

(24:29):
an individual like this. It doesn'tit isn't just one thing. It isn't
just child abuse, because unfortunately,there's been a lot of individuals who have
abused abused as children sexually and physically, and overwhelming majority never do anything.
Salvador Ramos and Vallde, Texas there'sa good example of a tumultuous adolescence.

(24:51):
Father and mother had issues. Hehad violent issues with his mother, moved
to his grandmother's place, had definitelyhe had some indications of intermitt and explosive
disorder, made multiple threats against multiplepeople over a large period of time,
had a lot of odd behaviors ononline and in the video game community that

(25:17):
he was part of. There weremultiple red flags leading up to him trying
to attempting to kill his grandmother andthen going to the school and and and
shooting the school up, multiple redflags, but in and evit, in
and of itself, any one ofthose red flags not enough to do anything.

(25:40):
So, you know, it's it'svery important that if someone sees something,
say something that's you know, it'snot it's more than a cliche.
If you see somebody who's outside theirnormal baseline, you know, whether it's
you know, self harm or harmto others, you should investigate that so
that's that's again a very big basicpremise. But the reality is that some

(26:03):
people hide in plane view very well, and serial killers are very good at
that. I mean, Ted Bundylooked normal, was a very charming you
know individual and serial killers in generalare very good at feigning empathy even though
they can't really feel empathy or expressempathy. The fact thing that's one of

(26:25):
the traits that many serial killers haveis that they they have a lack of
empathy towards others and their and theirpeers. They also a lot of them,
while they tend to be highly orhighly intelligent, not necessarily educated.
There's usually a history of alcohol orsubstance abuse, either with them or their

(26:45):
families. Oftentimes the turmoil in theirfamily as such that they end up hating
their mothers and fathers. Based ona number of interviews of serial killers,
and a lot of the lot ofserial killers are their father is absent or
abandoned the family and they were raisedby domineering mothers. Remember Alfred Hitchcock's movie,

(27:11):
what was it called Psycho the PaceMotel. Dear Mother. You know,
there's another part that's interesting. Ijust I just read this and I
don't know if you read it ornot, but it's interesting that the owner
of a of a brewing company saidthat when he saw this individual, the

(27:32):
suspect, his behavior caused enough concernfor staff to put a note in the
company system about him. The staffput in there, this guy makes creepy
comments. Keep an eye on him. He'll have two three beers and get
too comfortable. He would ask thefemale staff and customers where they if they
were with anybody, and where theylived. If the women weren't interested,

(27:56):
he would get upset and then andhe finally had The owner had to end
up talking to him. Quote hesays, hey, Brian, I just
wanted to talk to you really quickand make sure you're going to be respectful
this time. We're not going tohave any issues. The owner recounted that
the suspect was shocked that he waseven saying it and didn't know what he
was talking about. He was totallyconfused, and then he never went back

(28:18):
to the bar again. That Ithought that was interesting. Well, I
mean again, you know when it'sanother phenomenon when we hear somebody like Bill
Cosby, right, a woman makesan allegation that is obviously factually based against
him. Before you know it,there's three or four more women, then

(28:41):
there's five or six more women.You know. It's it's something that's been
going on for some time, thesered flags kind of thing. They they
didn't just happen. Ninety percent ofserial killers are male, right. What's
interesting is the vast majority of killershave abused animals in their childhood. They've

(29:03):
actually played out their sexual fantasies ofbondage and domination and sado masochistic behaviors against
animals well before they get to theiradolescence. What's interesting too, sixty percent
of serial killers that have been researchedand interviewed sixty percent with the bed beyond

(29:26):
the age of twelve. That's partof that McDonald's try and yeah, exactly.
Yeah, And there's a very highrate of suicide attempts among serial killers
before they turned to their life forcrime. Many many of the serial killers
that have been studied in the FBI'sEvil Minds research were fascinated with starting fires

(29:51):
and as I mentioned, sadistic behaviorstowards animals. But having said that,
that was all dark types of behaviors. Many of these historically, many of
These serial killers have a way ofsmooth talking they're victims. Their their grandiose,
egocentric UH personalities, and their abilityto feign empathy allows them to be

(30:17):
very effective predators because they can theycan get close to their victims, which
is what's necessary for many of them, because in order for them to get
the release they're looking for, theyneed to be able to get close enough
to control the victim physically. Inone case, this guy named Joel Rifkin.

(30:38):
In terms of lack of remorse,he bragged about his victims. Uh,
he was full of self pity.But this guy killed and dismembered at
least nine women. But later hecalled his own conviction a tragedy right,
and later got into an argument withanother inmate about whose killing spring was more

(31:00):
important his or a guy named ColinFerguson who was also a serial killer.
Ferguson taunted him about only killing womenand Rifkins said, yeah, but I
had more victims than you, hmm, So they don't all operate that way
either, that's the interesting thing.Yeah, I forgot who it was.

(31:22):
I think it was a serial killerin East Europe who told them to please
kill me if you want to sparethe world. Yeah, because you know
it's again and I'm not acquainting serialkillers to pedophiles, but I will say
that it's very difficult to change thebehavior of a pedophile. I heard a

(31:48):
federal judge say it best to adefendant during sentencing that there's no way we
can cure you. All I cando is incarcerate you and after your relief,
supervise you. Now, this individualwas in his later years, I
believe, mid to late fifties,and was going to jail and would be
released in his mid to late seventies, about twenty years, and the judge

(32:13):
said, you know, there's verylittle chance that you're ever be cured of
your compulsion to have sex with children. Serial Killers are wired, you know,
whether it's nature nurture issue, they'rewired to prey on others and they
get this release. Dennis Raider neededto feel that release. Although the outward

(32:40):
world looked at him as you know, a responsible member of society. You
know, he was part of hischurch, had two children, was married.
But you know, in many cases, particularly where there are serial killers
who are married or have families inthe families, you know, can't recognize

(33:01):
these quote unquote red flags that we'vediscussed. It's because they act so normal
around them. They save that abrantbehavior for when they're stalking their prey.
There's a guy named Andrea Chilenklo.He was called the Butcher of Ross.
Remember him? Yeah, this guy, would you know the total lack of

(33:24):
empathy. He would feast on genitaliafrom both male and female victims, and
he thought nothing of taking a life. He never thought nothing of killing.
I mean for them it's it's aform of release, even pleasure for them
to kill another person. And forthis guy, he stated that what he

(33:46):
enjoyed were the prize, the blood, and the agony because it by doing,
by controlling the victim to their death, it allowed him to relax and
to feel a certain pleasure that hecouldn't feel otherwise. And then, like
I mentioned, and there's a numberof cases where there's a sexual component,

(34:07):
whether it's you know, eating genitaliaof a victim or in Dennis Raider's case,
masturbating after after the kills. Andthese people also another thing that's very
common among them is their ability tomanipulate and be deceptful or deceitful. Right,

(34:30):
one that comes to mind is JohnWayne Gacy because he was he was
able to lure twenty eight young mento his house and then he actually talked
talked the number of them into puttingthis rope around their next as a you
know, as a magic trick,right, really killer clown. Yeah,

(34:51):
and he would convinced convince him toput the rope around, and then he
would trying to love to death.That's the victim actually participated. I often
wondered, you know, if thatwas part of Gacy's thrill, was getting
the victim to unwittingly basically participate intheir own murder. Probably, Yeah,
let's see that. I could seethat because it's think about it, it's

(35:14):
an ultimate forum of control that youget your victim to participate in their own
murder. I mean, that's that'spretty It's the ultimate amount of deception you
can do. Yeah. Oh yeah, it's definitely the deception. I don't
know what Raiders' score was on thePCL. I think it was in the
high twenties from mid twenties. Idon't know if he ever did it or

(35:37):
not. I know Bundy was inthe thirties. Yeah, and there's a
definite distinction between the individuals because thehigher you go in that PCL score,
it's the Psychopathy Checklist, folks.If you listen to the podcast, I'm
sure you've heard of it. Ifnot, you can check it out.
But any score over twenty started gettinginto that range of psychopathy. And if
you started hitting the high thirties,if you know anybody in the thirties,

(36:00):
I always say in the PCL,I would probably not know them anymore.
That's probably not a friend you wantto have. But in the mid twenties,
I think Dahmer was twenty three,twenty four. And that's what they
don't classify now, is well,it's debated all the time between the sociopath
or not. They say sociopaths havelittle kernels of empathy. Yeah, and

(36:22):
Dahmer was in that lower range.Bundy was thirty four. I think Raider
was a little higher. I don'tthink Raider might have had he might have
been a sociopath, borderline psychopath.For the fact of the family, right,
people always ask me, well,how do they get married? How
did they fall in love? Theyjust know how to act a role,
just like an actor, and theybasically act a role. Yeah, with
shallow emotions though. I mean,it was a German serial killer, Rudolph

(36:45):
Poliyil, and he killed ten peoplelater killed himself in prison. But he
compared murdering people to a hobby likeplaying cards, is what he told the
police. Just what I did isnot much greater harm with all the surplus
of women that are around nowadays,and that he's and anyway, I had

(37:05):
a good time, that was hisquote. And anyway I had a good
time. So yeah, And andthey make very little distinctions, funny,
And I was looking at videos.You know, when you go online and
check your emails, they kind ofclickbait. You talked about that earlier.
So for some reason, I don'tknow how I'm hooked up, but my
browser shows me these safaris in theserengetti, right, and I click on

(37:32):
one of them, and basically it'llbe something to catch your attention, like
you know, crocodile versus lion.You're like, oh, that's got to
be a good fight. So soI'm watching it, right, And so
I'm watching this video of the Here'swhat would hit me when I was a
kid. When I was a kid, I used to watch mutual of omaha.

(37:53):
Oh yeah, every Sunday, rightbefore Disney, and what was inting
that the lion would go after thegazelle, and then right before the lion
would was to make the kill,they would cut to a commercial. You
didn't see the kill nowadays, whetherit's you know, not Geo or your

(38:15):
browser, not only do you seethe lion get the gazelle, you see
him eating the entrils. I justsaw this morning. I saw hyenas attacking
injured rhino and they were literally eatinghim inside out. I'm like, this
is you know, and this iswhat people are exposed to. And when
you have you know, I hadto turn it off. When you when

(38:36):
you have you know, any kindof sense of empathy, you feel bad
for the animal. But ninety ninepercent of serial killers, ninety nine percent
of serial killers have committed acts ofanimal abuse. Yeah, it makes sense.
There's a lack of empathy there.If you can see, especially animals
that are more domesticated type of animalslike like a dog or a cat,

(38:57):
you can see you have a problem. There's a huge lack of it.
Well, it's also you know,again, a terrorist doesn't just go blow
up the World Trade Center, right. I can give you a number of
cases where the terrorists actually carried outtrainings for that act. Right, the
Mirror Building bombing, Timothy McVey actuallywent, he and his accomplices went and

(39:19):
blew up a number of smaller explosivedevices before they attacked the Murror building.
And there's a number of other caseslike that. And the reality is serial
killers don't just go start killing humans. They start out small. It's a
gradual you know, in a gradualprocess. So they start out killing animals,

(39:39):
but oftentimes their fantasies that they wantto carry out against humans begin with
those animals. In the abuse.I don't even know if it's quantified,
but I think the majority of themactually said the very first killing was disturbing.
Yes, yeah, but it's justit's this level of impulse. But
there's two things at play, impulseand compulse, right, compulsive. Compulsive

(40:05):
is different than impulse. Yes,So again going back to the other form
of predator, the pedophile, they'recompulsed. They think they're constantly thinking about
molesting, whether they're molesting the childor not. They're fantasizing about this.
It becomes such a constant drain ontheir psyche and their and their energy that

(40:27):
they have to act upon it.They feel they have to, right,
they're compulsed to do so, whichis different than impulse. Impulse would be
if you happen to see a childand then you your impulse was to grab
that child and rape them. Right. Opportunistic, Right, And most of
these serial killers are more more compulsivein their acts than impulsive. Most of

(40:52):
serial killers will stalk their prey insteadof, you know, have a crime
of opportunity. It's not to saythat it's one hundred percent, but in
most cases the serial killer will taketheir time to study their prey and look
for the right opportunity to because again, what we said earlier is critically important.

(41:14):
They want to control as much ofthe crime as they possibly can,
and that includes the death of theirvictim. They want to make sure that
they can because they're trying to seeka release, an emotional release. It's
highly personal. When we talk aboutthe PEP scale, it's highly personal.
It's not economic, it's not power. May have some elements of power,

(41:36):
but that's not the driving force,and it's not social. It's not for
the group or the cause. Ithink it's a good place to wrap up.
I think it was a fascinating discussionthat we had. There's no doubt
about that. And by the way, folks, if you're into serial criminal
mindset and stuff, don't be toohard on yourself. I mean, it's
one of the last psychologists believe it'sthe safest way for us to deal with
that dark side of ourselves that wedo control the ones who don't commit these

(42:00):
acts. It's another way of lookingat young called the shadow. Any fascinating
conversation it is off. I thinkit is a fascinating conversation we we certainly
can expound on more in the future. I think you know it's Oh,
we didn't touch everything, that's forsure. No, not even clothes.

(42:22):
Folks, you know what to do, Share, subscribe, hit that I
like button. You know we likeit. See ya.
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