Who was the IRS bomber

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze
some of the most notorious criminal cases with psychology and
criminology combined.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome everyone.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Today we're going to be talking about the IRS bomber.

Speaker 4 (00:25):
Annie, Welcome, Hey, Carlos, how you doing today?

Speaker 5 (00:30):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Doing pretty good?

Speaker 3 (00:31):
And we have an interest I see the IRS barmber
Dean Harvey Hicks. Actually, before we get started, I may
make sure to tell everybody if we want to support
our podcast, make sure to share it and subscribe. I'm
missing any future episodes.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Isn't this a case you also worked on, Annie.

Speaker 5 (00:47):
Well, I didn't work on this one a little bit
before my time. Actually, about the time I came in
the Bureau of nineteen ninety, he was being set in up.
Most of these violations occurred in the mid nineteen eighties.
But it's an interesting case. And when I used to
teach a course on counter terrorism at the FBN, I
used Dean Harvey Hicks as one of my one of
my case studies.

Speaker 4 (01:08):
So tell us a little bit about what he did. Well,
it's an interesting case. So Dean Harvey Hicks.

Speaker 5 (01:16):
And his one man group was called up the IR recoripride.

Speaker 4 (01:20):
So I mean who couldn't get behind that? Right up?

Speaker 5 (01:23):
The IRS, that's right right, And you know we just
we just passed April fifteenth, and because of COVID, of
course the I R S is given.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Us to July fifteenth to pay our taxes, which is nice.

Speaker 5 (01:34):
But in this particular case, Dean Harvey Hicks was a
serial bomber. He's a forty five year old aerospace engineer
who got ticked off at the I R S because
during an IRS audit, he was denied a nine thousand
dollars charitable contribution deduction that he applied for, and so
he was he was upset with the I R S.

(01:55):
And in short order he decided he was going to
blow the I R S up.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Do we ever know why he was that upset with
the IRS?

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Me?

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Did they charge him too much? Do they think he
was falsifying sim.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
Well, like I said, he in the mid early eighties, he.

Speaker 5 (02:13):
Had omitted his tax paperwork and he had put a
nine thousand dollars charitable contribution to a mail order church.

Speaker 4 (02:23):
So it's like give one of these fake churches.

Speaker 5 (02:25):
The IRS did an audit, the IRS said, you know what,
we're not giving him a nine thousand dollars deduction, and
he appealed and got upset.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
And here's a guy who was of interesting psychology.

Speaker 5 (02:36):
Of course you will appreciate this. So it's basically a loner.
If you search him on the internet, you won't find anything.
Even prior to this, a lot of these types like
tech Kaznski can Thingvay, people write books about him because
there's some stational crimes. But in this case it's not
a it's nothing, which is pretty interesting.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
But there is some things that you.

Speaker 5 (02:55):
Can extrapolate about his psychology from the investigation than what
they uncovered. He was single, mid forties, forty five years old,
lived in an isolated lifestyle with a bunch of cats.
He was from the Coasta Mesa, California area. Is that
Orange County?

Speaker 2 (03:14):
It's an Orange county really close to my abode.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, okay, yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:22):
He probably wouldn't even notice him though he's a neighbor.
But he kept to himself because he's the neighbors around him.
He had a life of loneliness and his cats, so
the cats kept him company.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
And in fact, what's interesting is.

Speaker 5 (03:34):
The day he was arrested by the FBI, he asked
the FBI agent can you.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
Ask my care of my cats?

Speaker 5 (03:43):
And he enjoyed gardening. So this is the guy who's
basically alone. And we know studying terrorism that isolation, physical
and mental.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
Isolation are critical components.

Speaker 5 (03:53):
They're developing a cognitively closed mindset to the extremeist mindset
of me against or us against them.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
And it seems that this particular case, you have this
guy who was brooding over time.

Speaker 5 (04:07):
It took years, this is mid eighties when he was
denied this IRS production. The first bombing that we believe
occurred was nineteen eighty six, but it wasn't. It wasn't
he wasn't found guilty of those bombing. Four pipe bombs
were diffused at Culver City IRS building and seven pipe bombs,
including two life charges were founded at FED building, an

(04:28):
IRS building in a place called Laguna Neguel.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Is that near you, that's about another fifteen twenty minutes away. Yeah,
he's right around my area. I wasn't here back then.
I didn't live here. Wow.

Speaker 5 (04:41):
Yeah, So back then, so they were you know, had
these bombs, and these two first cases were not tied
directly to him. But then in nineteen eighty seven he
actually launched mortars.

Speaker 4 (04:51):
So this guy. Which is fascinating about this case is
this engine he's an engineer, right, and.

Speaker 5 (04:56):
He builds mortars and into these mortars at an IR
building in Laguna Beach, California. Fortunately, because of a design
flaw in the mortars, no shells actually exploded. They hit
the building, but they were DoD Wow.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
So when these types, Yeah, what interesting.

Speaker 5 (05:12):
About that is that the FBI then collects you know,
ATMs in this case with the FBI along with the
IRS Criminal Investigators as well as the LAPD and the
County Orange County Sharff's form. So they created task force
in these particular cases and then they'll collect the evidence.

Speaker 4 (05:29):
And so now he exploded ordnance and much like the
case we discussed a week ago, they can look at
this and look that the normenclature of the bombs to
determine whether a known bomber has actually created these bombs
in the past. But that was a dead end in
this particular case because this was.

Speaker 5 (05:46):
The first criminal app the Dean Harvey Hicks that ever
committed I mean, he went big or go home kind
of guy, right.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Or at least start blowing up at least the first
way he was caught.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (05:59):
Well, I think that these types of crimes, you know,
they'd be you know, pretty well known. I mean, this
guy's trying to blow buildings up. He attacked another time
in nineteen eighty eight, but this time he plants a
bomb in a car in the subterranean Gruss sort of
like the you know, First World Trade Center kind of attack,
and its high rise building containing an IRS.

Speaker 4 (06:20):
Office in Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles. So this is
this time.

Speaker 5 (06:25):
It's a populated area he's chosen in Los Angeles. The
car contained several different types of explosives, including the water
filled with volatile mixture of ammonia, nitrate, and fuel oil.
So this is like Timothy McVay kind of stuff. He
puts this in a parking.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
Lot of a building, an IRS building, and he includes
ammonia and bleach in the trunk. So if this bomb
had actually gone, it would have emitted a toxic cloud.
He would have had what we referred to as a
dirty box.

Speaker 5 (06:55):
So the car was actually booky flapped with an anti
personnel device designed to nate if anybody attempted to get
in the car.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Think a little bit, if I can, Andy, That kind
of makes me think, does he have any military experience.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Do we even know?

Speaker 4 (07:09):
I know he's off now now he's an engineer.

Speaker 5 (07:14):
He's just a crazy ass engineer upset with the I R.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
S is the nicest donation.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
So he's I mean, this is the mind of this
serial bomber. So he puts this anti personnel device in
the car, and a bomb actually does go up. One
of the pipe bombs goes off in this car, but
it only exploded. It's something ignite, the ammonium NITRATEE or
the bleach in the trunk, so it didn't turn into.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
A dirty bomb. But never less, you to go off.

Speaker 5 (07:42):
And again it gave a big cash of forensic evidence
for the FBI, a t F They scraped it for fingerprints,
they thined, anything like that. But now they have the
type of bomb they can they can then tie to
other bombs that may be coming afterwards. So soon after
this last incident, right, the one that I'm just referring.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
To in eighty eight, kicks the letter, he.

Speaker 5 (08:07):
Sends a letter to the City National Bank, right, And
so he sends this letter detailing that the bomb you know,
was going to blow up. In the letter beforded to
come from a group called up the IRS Incorporate. He
bordered the occupant building that there would be future bomb
attacks at I R.

Speaker 4 (08:26):
S offices. So here we now what we have as
an individual who's had several.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
Bombs or bombing accounts right so far, luckily nobody's been hurt.
But now he's he's got going a step further and
warning the IRS that, you know what, there will be
future bombs like this.

Speaker 4 (08:45):
This letter shows and it.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Shows what it shoks motive. I'm sorry, go ahead, Oh no,
I did tell you. He shows motive also some level
of not remorse, but almost concerned and for human life
in a weird way, at least for a certain degree.
Was he really he's attacking more of the institution according
to himself, it sounds like than he is the people.

Speaker 5 (09:10):
You know what, that's a good point, and I'm gonna
come back to that when we get to the follow up.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
You know that when he was caught.

Speaker 5 (09:15):
And sentenced, because he's gonna he's gonna make that argument.

Speaker 4 (09:18):
I think you'll see. But the following year, in nineteen
eighty nine, nineteen ninety, for stepping up the.

Speaker 5 (09:25):
Severity of his attacks, he picked U He parked a
pickup truck alongside the Olympic Boulevard, that same building, and this.

Speaker 4 (09:32):
Time the truck was laden with two thousand.

Speaker 5 (09:34):
Pounds of a million night trad and fuel loyal And
he intended to he said later, And this goes to
your point. He said, I don't want to kill anybody.
I just intended to break some windows. Right.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Interesting, the truck caught fire.

Speaker 5 (09:50):
Yeah, so, but again he had he had some He
was an engineer. Maybe this is why he was fired
from the one job. But his designs were never that great,
and they to have some kind of mechanism that would malfunction.
In this particular case, the truck caught fire, the ammonia
nitrate and the fuel oil began to burn. A fire

(10:10):
department truck arrived at Lease the fire before the bomb
had a chance to explode, but twenty square blocks of
the area, the residential area had to be evacuated.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
Could you imagine if that bomb had gone off?

Speaker 5 (10:23):
Oh? I mean yeah. Well, so he sends another letter,
and this time he's claiming responsibility for the incident and
again warning of future attack. So, this time, in April
nineteen ninety one, it launches.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
I'm sure the listeners are going well, wait a minute,
they got two thousand pounds of ammonia nitrate, fifty gallon
drums of fuel.

Speaker 4 (10:47):
Oil.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
Fire department puts out the fire and nothing was asked.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I guess we don't know.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Well, no, what's happened? You know, this is again you
got to keep in mind that.

Speaker 5 (10:57):
This is a farmer like Ted Kaczinski, so in a
much more condensed area, because Kavinski was blowing people up.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Around the United States.

Speaker 5 (11:05):
So this is all happening in and around Orange County
and Los Angeles, and every one of these crime scenes
kind of builds up, and in this particular case, by
nineteen ninety one, there was a number of incidents as
well as letters being sent from Hicks and up the

(11:26):
irs that this investigative team is now looking they're looking
at an unknown suspect. They really don't have anything other
than the vehicles. So this is where the case breaks.
You know, when we talk we see on a movie
or in real life as that bigenc myself. You know,
we're always looking for that quote unquote break in the case.
Sometimes luck most times it's just a lot of hard

(11:48):
work and dedication looking for the forensics.

Speaker 4 (11:51):
So I'm going to get to that in after this nineteen.

Speaker 5 (11:54):
Ninety one attack, This happened on April first, nineteen ninety one,
Hicks launched mortars against the IRS building in Fresno, California.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
So he fired thirteen shells.

Speaker 5 (12:06):
Five of the I guess was back to his ineptitude
as as a engineer. Five the shells exploded, my mats stakes,
So what's five from thirteen is something like.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
Eight didn't explode?

Speaker 5 (12:18):
Right, Yeah, so eight of them, the five that did
explode caused moderate damage to the facility, including the roof
where you know, people were actually working when this happened.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
But the other eight of these.

Speaker 5 (12:31):
Bombs that were doug helped the authorities time the p escapes.
Now they knew by that a shadow of a doubt
we got a problem with looks like this as a
campaign of bombing. And then at this after this bomb,
a letter.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
Goes to the Fresno b responsibility and so the investigators
start looking at the cars themselves.

Speaker 5 (12:53):
And what they found, based on the then number of
one of the vehicles was it a a traced back
to a couple husband and wife, and they had sent
investigators to go to these individuals, and the husband and
wife said oh, we sold that vehicle and they said
who is it too? And they gave a name, but
it was not being Harvey Hicks. And then they asked, well,

(13:15):
this is Los Angeles Police Department. They said, can you
are composite artist a sketch? Can you describe who this
person was you sold the carton? And the couple said,
we'd be happy to And that's the break in the kiss.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
So this couple, yeah, So they.

Speaker 5 (13:33):
Give the LAPD officer a description of the person they
sold the car to. Then the agencies that are working
part of this task force continued working this investigation. What
they found was another vehicle, one of the other vehicles
that were used in this case, an eighty eight attempt
that one of the first attacks where he had planted

(13:55):
in that subterranean garage and it didn't blow up. That
car had actually been stolen from a company called Ford Aerospace, right, yes,
and then use this attempted bump. So they the investigators
go to Ford Aerospace and they start showing the composite
sketch to the employees there at the facility. This is

(14:19):
what gets my heart company, This is why I let
up the agent. This is the kind of stuff Carlos.
It really really is the best part of the job.
So these agents, I can only imagine that these agents
go there and they show this composite of Dean Harvey Hicks.
An employee after employee says, hey, that's the guy who
used to work.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
Here, Dean Harvey Hicks.

Speaker 5 (14:41):
And that's when agents start doing the high fives, right,
because now they have a sust that now they have
somebody that they can look at.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
So here's what they do.

Speaker 5 (14:48):
They take the composite they have the names Dean Harvey Hicks.
Gets you to that the IRS agents that are working
that investigation, and they say, hey, can you run Dean
Harvey Hicks against your database? Have you ever had a
problem with a guy named Dean Harvey Hicks who lives
here in California? And guess what happens? Like the jackbox

(15:09):
being ding ding bing. Now they find out that Hicks
has had some issues with the IRS, and so guess
what they get a want for.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
Dean Harvey Hicks home.

Speaker 5 (15:20):
They go to his house, they find out that Bomb
Michills are at his home. They make them arrest and
the rest of it is to be discussed as to the.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
Offender or outcome he's arrested in charge.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Fascinating stuff.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
There's a couple of things I'm going to point out,
if I may, do you see some psychological things. I
think this is all speculation, folks. Again, the amount of information,
at least that we're privy to you open source wise,
is very limited. On Dean Harvey Hicks. We have no
real background in his childhood, but you know, obviously some
of his behaviors.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
You can also see some of his behaviors and.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Serial killers the isolation level, so we probably had some
social skill issues at home.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Who knows what parenting is.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
We don't know if he has any kind of mental
health issues. He was a little older when he started this,
in his late thirties. Could be schizophrenia, Highly doubt it
thatccurs much younger. Could have had a psychotic episode, highly
doubted because too organized for that. But anyway, some of
the interesting things. March second, nineteen eighty was seven was
the first attack, which is about a month before taxes.

(16:26):
Then the second attack has been on me because it
occurs in September of eighty eight, which is pretty early
for the tax season. So I'm wondering what happened there
and then maybe there was a trigger event, which we
don't know. I never saw a trigger, but I'm wondering
if there was a trigger event, if somebody had passed
away that he knew that started the game earlier. Maybe

(16:48):
he got sent a letter by the IRS on that day,
because the next one in nineteen ninety had happened in
February nineteenth, which is again just less than two months
before April fifteenth, and then again in ninety one was
April first, all pretty close to the time of the
April fifteenth deadline and right around taxis, which irritated him somehow.

Speaker 5 (17:08):
I mean, you can, you can develop a mindset, these
extremist mindsets can develop over come to implicit effects or
one media event that's an explicit effect on your on
your mind.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
I believe in.

Speaker 5 (17:19):
This particular case, UH Lee Harvey Hick never or Dean
Harvey Hicks, it's never really cared for the high r S.
Probably didn't want to pay his taxes to begin with, so.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
He attempted a nine thousand dollars fraud donation UH deduction.

Speaker 5 (17:34):
What he got caught in the audit, and that was
the explicit triggering effect that led him to justify or
reason his violence against the I R s specifically, the
if you look at at motive, there's a couple of
things we look at here. The first thing is on
the genre of crime.

Speaker 4 (17:52):
Is he a terrorist or not?

Speaker 5 (17:54):
And and to figure that out you have to look
at the government, the FBI's definition what terrorism is. And
the FBI defines an Department of Justice defines terrorism as
a violent act against people of property to coerce a
government or segment of the population in further nts of
political and social objectives. So if we break that down

(18:15):
and at the piece which is was Harvey Hicks violence, uh?
Was it? Was it an act of violence against people
of property to shoot mortars at irs buildings. He never
killed anybody, never heard anybody. Back later he's being sentenced,
he said the way I said, I mean or the
timers was intended to cause the greatest amount of display

(18:37):
with minimum injury to anyone around at Harvey X right.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, and that.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
Before we go on to that, I just want to
I wanted to see your question, your insight on this
really quickly, because he did booby trap in the second
and then according to the government investigators, he says he
wanted to design it that way, so it designed to
dead and if anyone attempted to move the car, which
I guess, I'm assuming he wanted to control the situation entirely,

(19:06):
and if anybody interfered with his plans, they were gonna suffer.
So he must have rationalized that part out of it.
If he really didn't want to hurt anybody, I don't.

Speaker 5 (19:16):
Know, And I draw some parallels to him and Eric
Robert Rudolf in case. I did work the abortion clinic
bomber in the Olympics in ninety six and then the
abortion clinics in Alabama, and Rob Eric Robert Rudolf's case.
It was an explicit affect. His father dies of candor.
He was a Vietnam veteran.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
UH. Eric Robert Rudolph and.

Speaker 5 (19:40):
His family blamed the federal government and specifically the Veterans
administration in his father's death.

Speaker 4 (19:47):
He extrapolated that.

Speaker 5 (19:49):
And developed treamous minds against the government in general and
wanted to kill first responders. I mean that was how
he focused his his UH, his violence in this particular case.
Through that process of rational choice, you have this individual
who's not psychotic.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
Can you right or wrong? This is not a guy
who has a mental illness. But Dean Harvey Hicks was
so angry at the I r s that he reasons
and justifies setting up these bombs and shooting mortars. But
because by the grace of God.

Speaker 5 (20:22):
He didn't nobody or hurt anyone, He's going to minimize
his actions by saying I intended to cause the greatest
amount of display with minimal injury. I mean, listen, you
don't shoot mortars rights and not want to hurt somebody.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
The only reason I'm laughing, folks, But it sounds so ludicrous. Sometimes,
go ahead.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yeah, perfectly reasonable to Dean Harvey Hicks.

Speaker 5 (20:45):
However, so the violence clearly against people of property that
satisfies that that requirement. The question is was it used
a coerce government or a segment of the population. And
I'll get to that in just a moment, because that
that coercion has to be in furtherance of a political
or social objective.

Speaker 4 (21:05):
And so the.

Speaker 5 (21:07):
Court's rule, in fact, it was that it met those
that threshold, and they said showed because they said that.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
His actions.

Speaker 5 (21:19):
This is the appellate court later on said his actions
are a political case in the sense of protest mister Hicks.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
Was making against the I r S.

Speaker 5 (21:28):
He does not have the right to conduct the reign
of terror as he did in this fashion. They compared
his actions to that of the I r S, the
eut Republican Army and other terrorist groups, the different of
degree in scope. But in the final final analysis, his
violence was political by nature and it's a means of
terrorist activity. Now hicks actions constituted terror them according to

(21:51):
the court. But what Hicks said, I think is the
most thing. When he addressed the sentence and judge, he
said in a letter to the judge, was it worth
it if the benefits are people, If it benefits our
people by bringing attention and correction to the problems referred above,
meaning the IRRs. Those statements are consistent right, And the

(22:16):
judge said those those statements are consistent with terrorism. So,
according to his own words, his motive was to bring
attention from this bad IRS to the people. That is
a political action and justifies the furtherance of political objectives.

(22:36):
We're just lucky that Dean Harvey Hicks didn't kill anybody.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Absolutely.

Speaker 5 (22:40):
Now what's interesting and the outcome, the offender's outcome, he
was he pled guilty by the way, to these chargeants.
He was sentenced to thirty years. There was an appeal
and the he did win on appeal the question of
why the federal judge was the federal guideline the guidelines
for twenty years. The judge gave him thirty and so

(23:03):
the appellate judges basically said that the sentencing judge, if
he wants to impose a thirty year sentence, must provold explanation,
which I'm sure he did. I couldn't find any evidence
if he's out of jail now, but he would have
been forty five in ninety one when he was sentenced,

(23:25):
where at twenty twenty, so he'd be getting out of
jail right now with good behavior twenty eight twenty nine years.
So he should be getting out of jail any time,
if he hasn't already been out in the last year
or though.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
And that's one of the most amazing things besides all that,
is that he's nonexistent. I mean the articles you could find,
and folks, if you find anything, let me know, because
the only articles I could find was nineteen ninety one,
nineteen ninety two. The rest were just referencing him. And
that's about the end of it. I mean, there's no
no comment whatsoever. And this guy is he's in about
five or six different books recurs to t.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
Yeah, you know, it's funny the seventy five years old.

Speaker 5 (24:05):
So if you if he's probably not going to be
paying his taxes anytime soon, but seventy five years old,
if you, if you.

Speaker 4 (24:11):
Could find him, he'd be an interesting interview for our show.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah. Well, do you know where he was incarcerrated by
chance or now.

Speaker 4 (24:18):
In the federal system is kind of hard to tell.

Speaker 5 (24:20):
He couldn't been anywhere, but you know, from California, generally speaking,
once they're there, at least they go back home. So
he's probably a neighbor of yours there in Orange County.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
I'll be watching out for for anybody of the truck looking.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
Well.

Speaker 5 (24:36):
You know, he was also not just sentenced to the
thirty years, but he was ordered to pay for forty
five thousand dollars fine.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
In restitution of three hundred and thirty five thousand dollars
to the irs, all over a nine thousand dollars donation.

Speaker 5 (24:47):
It's crazy, but let's assume he kept that house in
Orange County back in mid eighties.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
It's probably worth two million dollars.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Now that's true.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
So yeah, he's probably one of your neighbors.

Speaker 5 (24:59):
Just look look for the property that hasn't been the
property that hasn't been cut for thirty years, that's probably
his house.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, folks, there you have it. I mean, I don't know, Andy,
I mean.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Psychologically, we've made some guesses. I don't want to make
too many, Morgan, is not much else you can do.
We've kind of figured out what the type of person
he is, maybe Austin as you said, he has a grudge,
he had anger, doesn't seem like a mental health issues.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
He was able to wait at least a year or
more between.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Attacks, odd stuff, odd stuff. Nowhere to find any information
on the guy anything at all.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
So that's we wanted to present that.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
Yeah, you know, I'll just add this Carlos.

Speaker 5 (25:38):
You know, as a behavioral scientist and at the Behavioral
science Funeral, when we looked at the criminals and their
intent or motive behind their criminal behavior, we kind of
broke it on into three categories. The mad, those people
that are criminally insane. You know, these these are people
that really have breaks in their sanity or have mental ionees.

(26:00):
The sad those people who are depressed and committed crime,
usually by himself and then the bad So the important
point for our listeners is that sometimes these individuals are
just sociopathic. They are They just have you know, anti
personality disorders that allow them to reason bad outcomes, and

(26:22):
they're bad people. And I think in this particular case,
Lee Harvey Hicks was a loner, and I think that
he was pissed off to no end. He couldn't get
away with deceiving the IRS. He probably never liked to pay,
and when he was denied that nine thousand dollars donation,
he felt like the IRS and the federal government was

(26:43):
ripping him off. It was his money, and by God,
he was going to get to them. He was going
to show them. And I believe that's the motive right there.
It's nothing but somebody who's just so angry personally. And
maybe in the near future we can detail in case
study Joe Staff. Joe did another fascinating case in Austin, Texas,

(27:06):
a man who hit the IRS that he blew his
Sessma airplane into an IRS building, killing an IRS employee.
And again I see a lot of parallels these individuals
feel that they have been agreed by the federal government,
specifically the irs. They don't want to pay their taxes
and bygg into their pound of flesh, and now I
think is what happened here with Bean Harvey Hicks.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Absolutely I agree with that.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
I mean, the only thing psychologically I guess would be
that there was some deprivation. Obviously you didn't have the
emotional regulation skills that people can handle such a thing,
so they don't overreact as that. But we're not going
to do that today. But we thank you so much Andy,
great insight. Once again, my friend.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
I always enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Carlos, thank you everyone for listening.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Make sure to share this podcast if you want to
support us all you don't miss any future episodes and
who knows who are next criminal will be Thanks again
everyone for joining us.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
I gotta