Inspire Change SEASON 7-290 Man to Man - A Mindful Conversation with John Milham - Inspire Change with Gunter

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, listeners, it's good to siboa here with some exciting news.
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(00:24):
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(00:47):
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(01:09):
work together to inspire change. Now. Thank you for your
continued support, and let's keep inspiring change together.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
You're listening to Inspire Change, the broadcast that strives to educate, motivate,
and empower men to challenge traditions of masculinity to guide
us through the intricacies and intersections of emotions, relationships, and
male identity is renownced psychologists, author and speaker Gunter Swubota.
This is Inspire Change.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Before I begin the actual podcast, I would like to
respectfully acknowledge the gategor people of the Order Nation, who
are the traditional custodians of the lane on which I work.
I would also like to pay my respects to their
elders past and Presentlcome everybody to another episode of Inspired

(02:02):
Change with Gunta.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
I'm your host.

Speaker 5 (02:05):
Welcome everybody to Inspire Change with Gunta, the podcast where
we take on the big questions about men masculinity, know
what it really means to live well and live authentically,
especially in a world that's constantly shifting beneath our feet.
I'm your host, Gondsmibota, and today I have the pleasure

(02:26):
and privilege speaking with someone who doesn't just talk about change.
He lives it and he facilitates it every day for others.
My guest is John Millen, a leadership coach, facilitator and
an all around good bloke. However, well maybe, and he

(02:47):
is a man who's walked through his own fire to
arrive at a place of deeper presence and clarity, John
who helps men and organizations cut through the noise, uncover
what really matters, and bill cultures inside themselves and around
them to support real well being. So John, welcome to

(03:08):
inspire change.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
Well good. I want to meet the bloke you just
talked about. He sounds terrifick.

Speaker 5 (03:16):
Many as I said, it's a really good bloke.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
Fantastic. I'm going to put him on my Christmas card list.
Thank you, Thank you so much. I feel humble and
very very pleased to be here and to have a
discussion with you on on topics that I'm constantly listening
to you about and shaking my fist or screaming enjoy

(03:43):
when you talk about some of the things that you
just mentioned you as well mental health.

Speaker 5 (03:50):
Well, thank you. Keep in mind I don't particularly want
to see this as an interview, but much much more
as a dialogue or conversation. You know, we tend to
do that over cups of coffee and stuff like that,
So let's just duplicate, you know, right, Yeah, sorry.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
No, I know it's just going and you know, hopefully
like I would love this, like something popped up on
my Facebook feed just just as I logged on this
point and it was an old meme that I paced up.
Now I'm not a meme you know, machine at all,
but this one was about me, just you know, it

(04:32):
was saying, I want to have deep conversations. I want
to talk about atoms in the universe and God and
the Earth's core and science fiction and philosophy and all
of that stuff. Yeah, so I'm particularly I find it
particularly relevant that you invite me a dialogue today right now,

(04:59):
because I think, like what has happened to men and
their willingness to sit down and have these discussions?

Speaker 5 (05:07):
Right? Yes, I agree, you know, I play around with
all sorts of explanation, but few are satisfying in a sense.
There's only a few people really who will join me
in that sort of depth that you're looking for as well,

(05:28):
you know, I mean often the conversations around sport, you know,
the job, right, and you know, as much as that
is part of living, I like you first for that deeper, deeper,
deeper discussion than dialogue conversation, you know.

Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yeah, absolutely, Like we have only one day is devoted
to giving us presents like that, you know, for being
alive right our birthday, every other day, right, is about
us giving presents to others, right, So we seem to
have got that right. We're walking through the world expecting

(06:09):
every day to be acknowledged and handed the gifts of life. Right.
I'm just going here, and that doesn't feel right, like,
you know, it feels like we're missing the point that that,
particularly as a man, the whole purpose of being a man,
in my mind, is to grow yourself and serve others, right,
you know, in a very simple philosophy.

Speaker 5 (06:32):
Yeah, yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And the question, you know,
still hangs about what's happened to us where this has
become almost shunned, you know, Like you know, I love philosophy,
I love history, you know, I love the sciences, and
often I get the sort of comment about, oh, you know,

(06:54):
let's not get too let's not get too deep. I'm going, well,
hang on there, what's too deep? I don't think he
can get deep enough.

Speaker 4 (07:05):
You know. I recall a you know, a wonderful catch
up with the old UNI crowd, right, the oaks, having
a beautiful afternoon, a lot of fun, very easy, right,
that free you know, you pick up almost like you
left off forty years ago. But one of the bikes.
You know, obviously I'm a very different man after my
journey through the things that lived, experiences, the things that

(07:29):
have been important and have taught me a lot about life,
as difficult as some of them were. Right, But I'm
sitting there chatting and he just looked at me and
he goes, look, you know, John, I love you, but
like you're exhausting. Can't we just talk about footy sometimes? Right? Like,
I'm inspired by that conversation, and I'm I want to

(07:52):
ask you, the guru, the man who has devoted his
life to finding answers to these questions, why is he
hosted by that conversation?

Speaker 5 (08:03):
You know again, it's one of the fundamental questions in
a in a nutshell, I don't know. Emotionally, I don't
understand it. Right. Intellectually I can go, well, maybe he lacks,
you know, the education, or maybe he lacks, you know,
the motivation to enter in that. Sometimes people, you know,

(08:25):
especially in a world where we sort of raised to
be competitive, feel like we can't keep up right. But
that what stays with me is that word exhaustion. You know,
that to me designates an emotional reaction. It's not just intellectual.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
No, yeah, yeah, yeah, from like their their soul, like
their little and core of it. And yet you know
what do we have energy for? We have energy for
or what work? You know, competition, you know the things
you talk about with atriarchy? Right, we have energy for

(09:09):
defending our our kingdom. Right, we have energy for acquiring
new territories. Right, you know we have energy for like
you know, power or the perception of power, you know,
taking on a role and pretending. So I don't know
why that's more important than being you know, a protector,

(09:34):
a provider, a service person. But are they the same
and just misunderstood?

Speaker 5 (09:40):
Good question. I think there is a cultural difference. I think,
you know, coming from Europe, my experience, even like meeting
someone in a coffee shop is has a different feel,
you know, the curious about you. There's a sense of
wanting to connect. It's not it's not just about something.

(10:00):
It's about like, tell me about yourself. So let me
start here because you raise the point for our listeners, right,
and I'm pleased to say we've got quite a strong,
huge community. Now, I would love it if you would
share with me and the community about you know, how

(10:24):
you got to where you are, right, because I mean,
all of us get to this point in this particular field,
not through simple desire for status or money, but actually
because we're trying to find you know, it's almost like
that calling, you know, and it's through challenges, it's through
pain and you know, suffering. Now, one thing that I

(10:47):
want to flag is I want to ask you a
question towards the end about and the question is this
is suffering good? Right? But lbot because I, you know,
really really want to hear your story.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
We'll get to Schopenheimer later, but yeah, wow, wow, what
a what an invitation to talk, I would say, right,
I've been just interesting diving in a little bit into
the idea of maturity. What what what what makes a
grown man grown? You know, like where is mature? Right?

(11:23):
And I tend to sort of flippantly point out to
people that you know, like you can be grown physically,
but you can be so many of us are a
long way from growing emotionally. Right. So for me that's
important because the time I was born this life now

(11:46):
was born in the fire of losing my wife, right,
So which is now, you know, just going eighteen years
And it's interesting thing because what we're talking about is
Joseph Campbell's Heroes journey. You know, you step into the

(12:09):
challenge of life in some way and you are given trials,
tribulations and tests, you suffer, you fail, and you keep
going and then through the magical ade of the world,
you know, like you know, your magician turns up or
your guru or out, and you overcoming those trials, you

(12:32):
reach a point where they call Joseph Campbell calls it apotheosis,
which is death and rebirth, the phoenix from the ass exactly.
And it's true. I talk to people on podcasts who
have gone through terrible things, amazing stories of suffering, trauma,

(12:53):
and yet they come through with this resilience and this
understanding and they look, you know, there are a few
ways as you can go. And of course not everyone
grows from that, right, but there's a significant portion of
humans that have that phoenix effect where they come out
and they are more than they went in to the

(13:15):
suffering with. And I wonder, like, going back to the
thought you started with, I wonder if that's like, as
Schovnheimer says, you know, maybe that's the purpose of life.
But let's get in you know, for me, I came
back surprised, surprise myself, I got through. And you know,

(13:37):
maybe it was arrogance, maybe it was luck, maybe it
was purpose. And I'm not particularly confident to call it,
but from the trials and tribulations I went through, which
were started with the loss of my soulmate and partner
who I've been together from sixteen with it wow, and

(14:01):
you know that's at forty two, and then the whole
challenge of having your identity destroyed and then trying to
remake it. I was a corporate guy, and I realized
in that journey of trying to build some self awareness
that the corporate philosophy was sucking the soul out of me.

(14:24):
So then I had to re find a new direction.
And in that finding and seeking new supports, new identity,
new purpose, I was remade into someone who gave a
crap right and realized so much of what I was

(14:45):
doing was like robotic, following the culture, following the training,
following the pressure of the socialization that I was under,
and I wanted more. I want wanted to you know,
I wanted to get break myself out of that sort
of robotic haze and move into some form of agency.

(15:11):
Realizing at the same time that the Guru path was
not right either because I wasn't I wasn't brilliant, I
wasn't sort of Buddha alike. I was aspirational but not
not competent, right, So you know I had to grow
and achieve things as well as let go of that

(15:35):
of the need to be you know, in charge of
anything right there, like, and I had to learn so
many new tools to interact and the world doesn't particularly
support that journey.

Speaker 5 (15:48):
No, But you know, I'm going to challenge here a
little bit. Possibly in that frame you're more buddherlight than
what you think.

Speaker 4 (15:57):
And it's the belly right.

Speaker 6 (15:58):
Yeah, But like I'm talking, Recknson write a book the
Buddher's Brain, and I would love to sort of you know, to.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
Have the Budder's brain rather than the ballet. Right.

Speaker 5 (16:11):
So yeah, we're gonna maybe discuss this self camera at
another time, because you know I share with you that
sense of humility and when you talk to me about
being the Gura and so on, I said, sometimes actually
I get uncomfortable. I don't I don't like and I'm

(16:31):
not an expert. I mean I've just started doing research
and working towards in a doctorate and I'm running across
material where I go ship. This is blowing my mind.
There's so much out there.

Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, so.

Speaker 5 (16:49):
It is interesting that why does it for some of us? Okay,
why does it? Why does it open us up to
a reburd Yet for others they fall into an existential vacuum.
They either rebuild based on the same old story. Well

(17:09):
they're completely lost, you know, and even trying to help
and support them through that vacuum, you know, we we
try to shine a light for them and go look,
you know, here are many paths, but choose one not
the old one. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:26):
So that's such a huge question, you know, and it
haunts me, right, and I've got some thoughts about it,
right because I had to answer the question like being changing,
to be to live a heart sended life means that
you are you know, you have to go revisit old

(17:47):
questions and come up with like hang on that, like
the old answer doesn't work. So for instance, you know,
like just a very simple issue that pops up constantly
in our area, but also as big as for Australia
at the moment, right there are people getting very hot
and angry at young people who are anti social or

(18:08):
doing things that feel antisocial. And of course, you know,
once upon a time, I was quite happy that I'm
given up beating tread the old days we were taking
out the back of the shed and sort it out, right,
you know, And that's not adequate for me anymore. Right,
that's not where I'm you know, like I separate the
behavior from the from the person. I say, so, my

(18:30):
question is, what what about that that young young person's
life is not working so badly that they are unable
to do things that are good for themselves and others,
and and people go, yeah, look at the outcome, right,
but the outcome, like we dismiss outcomes into so many things.

(18:52):
What we look at the gold that that the potential
of a human that is going to waste, and being
angry at that human is exactly what you know is
the likely got them into that position. So the society
is is just telling them, you know, repeating that they
are not safe, that they're acting out is an appropriate

(19:14):
response because everyone hates them. Right, So I'm sitting there
thinking why do and men, you know, like politicians, like
you know, why do men cheat? Right? You know, like
we're all these things and I'm going you've got. It
has to go back to a fundamental need not being met.

(19:36):
And I think it's safety, and I don't. I think
it's you know, fear that drives the behavior, the destructive dominating,
you know, sort of the dark side of patriarchy, the
dark side of love, you know, the dark triad, right,

(19:57):
you know, you know so sure? Why are people psychotic?
You know? And I think it's fear, right like we
someone pointed out that, you know, in the past, you
would there were places of complete rest.

Speaker 5 (20:13):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (20:14):
Where in our very very complex and uncertain and ambiguous
world can you switch off kids constantly even when they
come home. They are they are they are threatened with
the need to be better at homework, better at after

(20:36):
school activities meant to improve them. They are you know,
to have more things, you know, social media. They need
to be better every time they turn on and compare
themselves with the delusional life that's represented such constant threat.

(20:57):
We spend our lives in this fight white freeze or
a peace.

Speaker 5 (21:04):
We've created. You know, people talk about the utopia, but
this thing is like hell, you know, if I use
it literally, like in a literary sense, and I mean,
you know, when we talk, well, what's the influence. I
agree with you, it's a lack of feeling safe and secure,
and underneath it is a fear of annihilation.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
Yeah, and that's not a man doesn't fear death, he
feels being completely gone. Right. So a bloke will step
out in front of a bus to save a child, right,
But ask you, because that's just physical current, ask him

(21:52):
to love his child when he's deally You're like, you know,
because or give up time from working to his family.
And you've got another a real issue.

Speaker 7 (22:05):
Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting as you
were talking about that, you know, I was thinking about
the random thought that came into my head, which often happens.

Speaker 5 (22:16):
You know, Why were the Egyptians so banned on having
this continuity of themselves in their history? I mean it's
that's exactly what you're talking about, is this, you know,
not being wiped right, and you go to most sort
of because I've been doing a lot of reading and anthropology,

(22:37):
and you go to most indigenous cultures and and most
of the time you continue to be alive whilst your
name is spoken.

Speaker 4 (22:45):
Yeah. Yeah, that's it's such an interesting aspect because like
the sense of Man show. I remember being a young
like watching that, and I remember that they had this
image of one hundred years right, and they had a
person every age.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
Right.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
They started to show so you know, just born all
the way through to one hundred, right, and they were
all in this bust being photographed in one long line.
And they said, you know, at that moment I heard
you know that your grand your grandkids may know your name,
but your great grandkids probably won't know your name, and
your great great grandkids will never know you existed, right, So,

(23:25):
and I'm just thinking that's absolutely horrifying a thought. I didn't,
you know, not that I'm going to be torn apart
in some sort of dramatic accident to die, but that
my grandkids won't know my name.

Speaker 5 (23:42):
Right.

Speaker 4 (23:42):
That's why it filled me full of fear, and that's
always stuck with me. The idea of legacy is how
do I leave a legacy? Just like that says John,
you were someone, right, you existed, you traveled this. It's
almost like the great tragedy men have is this sense

(24:05):
of like, you know, not being you know, dramatic, or
not dying early or whatever. It's just disappearing, as you say,
being a race, right, I agree.

Speaker 5 (24:17):
Yeah, I mean traditional sort of male norms. We compensate,
I believe for with that for basically creating material stuff,
you know, money, edifices, all sorts of things. But we

(24:38):
don't look inside. This is outside. We don't look at that.
Compassionate love is going to get us a lot further
than building a fucking building.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
Yeah. Absolutely, you asked, you know, and I the thing
that came up. You asked about why I'm like I
am now, and you know that what came up were
a series of events that were like those thats that
you know, that sort of level if we want to
take a game of a game of gamified view of it.

(25:11):
I've leveled up, right, you know. I went through life
getting getting killing the monster and leveling up. And one
of those days that was so important because after the
wife and my death, the death of my wife, that
was the that was the bit that ripped the goreze
off all of the workarounds and all the cover of

(25:35):
all of the emotional wounds that I had not dealt
with from childhood. My parents were messed up and they
passed that fully on to us. And you know, I'm
you know, I had to deal with, you know things,
and we papered over. And my wife had been this
amazing traveler that you know, I just my my my

(26:01):
guide through life, right she'd been. So when she went,
I went back the grief and the pain exposed all
of the unresolved things. So that was I call that
my crazy period and being you know, a bit whacko, right,
And of course then you know, the system got involved

(26:21):
and gave me a few names for it. I was
suffering complicated grief adjustment disorder. I had general anxiety disorder. Right,
I had a few few things to hang a hat on.
Still had to be functional. The system gives you names,
but not much help, right in some cases. Right, it's
rare to find somebody who's actually changing your circumstance, you know,

(26:47):
with greatest respect to a man who does right like yourself.
But one time, so as a result of those you know,
distractions in life, the breakdowns, right, I was left. I
made a serious of decisions that were very unhelpful for
things like material stuff. So, you know, being very well

(27:09):
off in the corporate world, having a house in the
Northern Beaches and all of that stuff, I proceeded to
dismantle all of that safety net with a series of
what would you know best described as crazy things, right,
you know, selling houses for you know, and losing money
and investing in schemes and you know, sort of leaving

(27:31):
you know, start leaving jobs to take up you know,
you know, sort of causes and anywhere. Like most people
describe me space. So I found myself in a rather
bizarre situation where I had almost I'd either lost or
became separated from all of my resources. I had three

(27:55):
kids I had to try and house feed and you know,
and educate them. I was I had moved careers, and
I've been doing quite well, and then I just you know,
found a way to not be able to do that, right,
So I'm seeing them challenged on that. So I had

(28:18):
enough money for a coffee just at the time, and
a lot of stress I was going to be. I
was losing my housing, i was losing my work. So
I'm sitting there at the coffee shop and I'm not
So I'm sitting at the beautiful coffee shop at Bilgola
right sitting down there, it's very early in the morning.

(28:40):
You would have to say that you're in this moment
of absolute despair. Because so much of what you think
is important has just gone right. I had nothing right,
and by conventional assessment, I was in a terrible way. John,
what have you done? You've lost You lost your nest egg,

(29:01):
you lost your savings, your backup. You're not looking at
into housing insecure every day. So I'm sitting there at
the coffee shop and I just I got that first coffee.
I had ten cents extra in my pocket. And then
the universe conspired to shift or support me just in

(29:24):
this bizarre way. So you know, like people would come.
I bumped into someone I knew and they had a
question and we talked and they bought me a coffee,
and you know, it was this incredibly you know, empowering
conversation where my service was was noted and needed and
they were grateful for. And then someone else came, you know, convenience,

(29:46):
and then we had this moment of connection with someone else.
And then there's another friend who you know, who popped
past and said, oh, I just the person I need
to talk to, right, And then you know, the guys
at the at the coffee shop, someone hadn't picked up
their breakfast, so they brought me a breakfast as well,
and at the same time, I'm sitting there watching the
sunrise over the most beautiful morning, you know, yeah, crystal

(30:13):
clear and sapphire skies and glisten jeweled waters, you know,
just at that beautiful sort of autumn feel. And suddenly
I just, I just knew that I had got the
criteria for success wrong. It was my fault. I hadn't

(30:35):
done it right. Everyone told me and changed me to
believe that that certain things in life were important and
valuable and they were not right. And the idea of
having enough money for a coffee was a was you know,
nothing to do with the wealth I was sitting in
on that same morning.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
Right, yeah, And it's beautiful story, John.

Speaker 4 (30:59):
And that changed me. I began to lean into this
idea that I could do with less, and I can
do more with less, more as in build deeper conversations
with people, right, but where I could be more available
if I had no material resource to.

Speaker 8 (31:19):
Justify my legacy, I would have to have a legacy
of connection, or a legacy of communication, or a legacy
of heart based activity, right.

Speaker 4 (31:33):
So I started trying to find a way to do that,
and that led to me feeling like I have the
key to one told riches and it's just it's like
it's here. Yeah, I'm so rich for having this conversation.

Speaker 5 (31:53):
It's interesting. You know. One of the things that I
often think about is that patriarchy teaches us to perfect
the mask, not the man.

Speaker 4 (32:01):
That's that is a sharp meme, right, yeah, and it
rings so true are the things you have to I
used to call it the corporate cloak.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Right.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
I'd have to walk into the office and I'd have
to put on the cloak, right, which turned me into
an individual that followed the values of the of the building,
not the man, right, and which meant that I could
I could you dismiss people, I could believe ale people,

(32:34):
I could disadvantage people. I could know things that you
would never do at home or the local, or maybe
you would do because you've been trained twenty five years
in a role to then become to transport someone else's values, right,
and you start exercising them in your life, and that

(32:56):
can't be a good thing.

Speaker 5 (32:58):
Yeah, totally agree. I Mean one of the way that
I see it is this perpetuation of busyness rather than
being so you know, and like if we talk about it,
you know, physiologically. You know, when a woman is pregnant
and she's overly stressed, that has a significant impact on

(33:23):
the baby.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
And if a woman is singing and loving and demonstrating
a good connection to her partner, the baby's also picking
that up.

Speaker 5 (33:38):
Right.

Speaker 4 (33:38):
Yeah, yeah, so's it's so true that that, you know,
the dismissing that concept and and sort of not paying
attention to those little things can can shape a baby's
early early experience of the world.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
Yeah. Absolutely, nothing like getting pink Floyd pumped into the belly.
I was as long as it's not on my gummah.

Speaker 4 (34:08):
Yeah, I don't want anything with the wall in it.
There's probably you know, no go these days, right. But
the the it was interesting because I was looking at
a report from Loneliness to Social Connection, right. It was
issued by the World Health Organization. I've seen that one.

(34:28):
I think, yeah, and yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a
you know, a significant piece of work on the thing.
And I'm so interested in because, like like you, the
idea of you're letting go of the of the usual

(34:50):
measures of success, right, means that we you know, people
are lonely because they're ostracized, right, And that's self imposed store.
It's imposed by circumstance, or it's imposed by the community
around them, right so, but either way, ostracism creates the

(35:11):
pain and suffering that leads to a whole bunch of
really bad outcomes like suicide and violence, and you know,
the loss of capacity. But the report, the one I read,
there were two options. There was the report and then
there was the plane Language Report. I was fascinated by

(35:35):
the plain language report because you know, I tend to
love to I'm so impressed by all the people with
their clever ways of describing things and you know, fancy
words around you know, the model or the theory of
change or the theory of So I went to the
Plane Language and I just I was just like this

(35:57):
beautiful thing where it's not that you don't understand the report,
it's just that you could. You know, this isn't an
alien endeavor. This is my endeavor, right, whether I'm suffering
or whether I'm supporting, it is a job for me

(36:18):
and my community to help and get involved. Whereas the
psychology world is almost like we create new names for old,
relative quite human things and we'll give it a proprietary,
clever name like thwarted belonging, right, which all that means

(36:40):
is I feel like I've got something I'm a part of,
and yet thwarted belonging is a concept that said, that
is implicated in all sorts of you know, suffering at
a psychosocial level. But you know, being a part of
things is something everybody understands is important and feels good. Right,

(37:03):
So I love this idea of part of our journey
is to go No, this is me who is involved
in helping and supporting and restoring. Right. It's not a
pathological it's not a medical, it's not a psychology or
a it's not there's not a barrier to me entering

(37:24):
into the discussion and solution of these psychosocial issues, right.

Speaker 5 (37:32):
Yea, yeah, completely, yeah, absolutely, I completely agree. And you know,
one of my criticisms over time, and you know, we
were almost skitting there in the sixties and seventies where
our work was humanistic and you know, focused on not
just pathology but also existential so you know, what is

(37:55):
our purpose? What is our meaning? And then shifting into
the eighties and suddenly you know, we're mechanizing psychology through
firstly biologizing it, right, and then secondly by mechanizing interventions. Right,

(38:15):
so you know and you know that if I have
a symptom like I'm getting a headache, and I know
that heater coming from my tense next neck muscles and shoulders,
the tool is to learn how to relax those muscles. Right.
So that's that's fine. But is that actually going to
help me stop getting so tense all the time that

(38:38):
I get a headache? Well, in part, it will, but
it's not necessarily the driver. No.

Speaker 4 (38:44):
We that's so true, and that that medicalizing everything means
that you're you've spent so much time on symptoms and
not causes, as you pointed out, But the causes are
upstream then they're so they're they're about the way people interact, right,
there are any culture there, they're epigenetic concerns, generational, and

(39:09):
they're often as you mentioned earlier, I think they're often
about some form of distress, right, and la we are
trained to deal with it, so which causes fear of
further distress, which causes makes it a threat, which means
where stress is part of our our processing of fear.

(39:32):
You know, when you are tense, when you're and you
express that physically, That's why things like yoga and massage
and meditation is so powerful because they they allow us
to access the physical triggers of emotional and psychological situation.
They're not separate, right, so you know, they're an entry,

(39:55):
They're connected. So I think you're absolutely right, you know,
like we you know, whether we have a headache that
is caused by the muscles being tense, the muscles being
tense that is caused by a fear of losing your
job or your partner or not not getting sick or something, right,
So what do we do? We go to a doctor

(40:16):
and he gives us panidole, right, and how the hell
does that help?

Speaker 5 (40:22):
You know? Well, it might cover the pain, but it
only reduces it and it doesn't actually get to get
a shift.

Speaker 4 (40:33):
And you go back to that. We go back to
you saying, you're, like, you know, when we talked about earlier,
about making those you know, the people making decisions, right,
why why do we not? Why as a as a
community do we do things that are not good for us?
And I think it's that fog of pain, right, Like

(40:53):
it's you know, you know, if we're our solution to
some of that psych ache is to go and you know,
to take drugs, you know, like whether it's out you know,
you know, the alcohol or drugs that we prescribe ourselves
or the medications of pharmacological responses that we others that

(41:15):
prescribe for us. We're increasing our level of fog and
our level of confusion. We're not getting clarity and we're
not standing up to the big questions. It's a form
of avoidance, and avoidance will always take us away from
the solution.

Speaker 5 (41:32):
Yeah. Absolutely, you know in this by you know, this
gives us a lens into how is it that in
all this time, let's say, let's let's put the stake
in the ground, in it from the nineteen eighties onwards,
where we become more conscious about gender inequities and all that,

(41:53):
men's health statistics are getting worse.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Oh yeah, totally.

Speaker 5 (41:57):
We are more suicidal as a as a group than
we've ever been. Right. Yet we're more affluent.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
Right, more money being spent on that.

Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yes, absolutely, and yet we you know, I mean, if
I put on a business hat here, I'm going I'm
not getting a lot of returns for my investment here.
So this is where I go. We really do need
to deconstruct the model we've got reconstructed. It's not just

(42:30):
on a personal level as a human being like you
have done and like all of us have sort of gone, okay,
I need to change, right, how do I change? And
towards what right? We need to do this socially and
that social thing requires that human connection. You know, it's

(42:52):
not the ghost in the machine, it's the soul. That's
so true.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
Yeah, that's so true. And it's interesting. It's interesting because.

Speaker 9 (43:02):
The the the process, right, we're getting away from like
you know, we're interfering, we're blocking where we're changing.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
You know, we're making it more difficult for people to
move away from it. Like we should be supporting people
who who become focused on service, they get activated by
life circumstances or their discovery of what that means to
them and then want to help, right, But we make
it difficult for people to help, for people to serve.

(43:38):
We actually we we project almost like put them in
a box and like we diminish their their work. Right.
So you know, if you don't make you know, meet
those social norms like of making money and having material things,
life can be very difficult and full of lack of

(44:02):
recognition lack of responishment respect right, most old people are
dismissed by the world. Right, So if you're over a
certain age, right, despite you once wielding ultimate power, right,
you're now worth bugger all right. So and certainly no
one wants to acknowledge it. Your your expertise or your

(44:25):
contribution is that's possible. And what an absolute waste that is,
What a ridiculous outcome that we take away possible resource
and solution and benefit and we just ignore it because
it doesn't you know, it doesn't run around at the

(44:45):
same rate it used to.

Speaker 5 (44:48):
I'm reminded of that program on ABC where they introduce
children into an age care facility. Brilliant, you know, has
that continued? I don't know.

Speaker 4 (45:02):
I don't think they're coming up with a new they
did Teenagers. I think they're doing a new season and
what that highlights is. And this goes back to that
sort of plain language versus psychology. Right, people, the the
system seems to need to have something that's fancy or
you know, something that's guilt right, colored in gold and

(45:25):
a bit shiny.

Speaker 5 (45:26):
Right.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
Humans just need connection, yes, right, So one of the
answers for almost every improving every US every situation of distress,
particularly men. And if I go back to men, one
of the answers is to have a very close companion
in the challenge right now. That can be someone you know,

(45:52):
or it can be someone who say, like me, is
someone who's willing to walk with blokes while they while
they take a breath and get themselves sold.

Speaker 5 (46:01):
Right.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
So often the resources for dealing with these challenges are
already in the bloke right, Like we're an incredibly resourceful mechanism,
but it's got an external on off button, right, So
you just need someone to come along and replace your batteries,
grass the button and you know, wait until you get

(46:24):
speed again. Get up to speed again, right, just hold
your steady like a bit of training. World. And that's
what communities used to do, but it was always what
we tend to do is tied up with structure and hierarchy.
We've got to give everything a boss, and right, we

(46:44):
tend to patriarch our level of our services, right, our
community gift you will, and we need to stop that.
We just have to say, right, on one hand, humans
are dichotomous. We can live with the idea that we're
all the same. And on the other hand, that out
that we're some people are in charge in some arts. Right,

(47:06):
you know, those two concepts can work, and we have
to because we're smart enough. We have to be intentional
about that. And it's about breaking down the idea that
people who are not the same or as not as
an accomplished or not focusing on the same things as
me are not broken. Yeah, they're actually beautiful.

Speaker 10 (47:26):
Yeah, yeah it you know again, this idea of brokenness
and pathologizing and and you know.

Speaker 5 (47:38):
In certain instances there is a functional value to some degree, right,
but in the bigger process it's not. I mean, you know,
and we have this thing going at the moment. We've
got to take everything, whack a label on it and

(47:59):
stick it in a box. And despite the fact that
we're always talking about you know, let's not stigmatize it,
let's not make it feel bad, it still does. If
I talk to a fifteen year old who's been told
he's got dyslexia and he's got ADHD or you know,

(48:21):
some other generalized anxiety disorder opposition or defines any label,
and his reaction is unbroken. You what use those words,
and with that comes to things One is shame and
the other one is anger.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
Wow, yeah, that's so true. And I can understand the
anger because is the language of like it has a purpose.
Anger is protected. It gives us the energy and the
courage to take a step out of a dangerous situation. Right,
it has real purpose. It can be useful, but it

(49:00):
is such an inappropriate way to address most of the
challenges of life. The trouble is, we are socialized to
use anger as men as the only way we express ourselves.
So when we're frustrated, when we're frightened, when we're interrupted,
when we when we feel our worth or our you know,
or our identity being challenged, we often resort to anger

(49:24):
as our defense. And it's those moments it's a really
inappropriate way of engaging, right. So it's good. Anger is
a great way of being of protecting you when something
you know really physically and rapidly dangerous. But we should
avoid it to solve emotional and identity issues. Right. So,

(49:48):
we don't know what to do with that, right, And
that's when we have to have access to the to
the wise men around us who have solved this problem,
who have developed an ability to regulate despite triggers, Right,
And that you can remain calm in this storm, and

(50:09):
as a consequence, turn on the button for your for
your own resources, right, your resilience, your understanding, your capacity, right,
you know. And when we do that, men immediately calm
down and they and they then are much more able

(50:29):
to start to click into learning mode, right, saying Okay,
what what I've normally done isn't working for me? What
do I really mean? How do I know? What options
do I have to solve that problem? And it's kind
of like it's kind of like a process issue.

Speaker 5 (50:44):
Right.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
We've always said this is a weird magic unconscious mind thing,
but it's not really. You men love solving things and
this is just one of those times where you you
have to get into that solution mode.

Speaker 5 (50:58):
And that's where I saw of, Okay, let's take all
these bits, right, and let's see how they interconnect.

Speaker 4 (51:05):
Right.

Speaker 5 (51:06):
It's not an either all thing, it's an end also. Right.
So if you if you, for example, can't find a
way of you know, working with your anger, you're going
to go into aggression, rage and violence. If because at
each point is a point of reflection, if you can

(51:27):
take it, Yeah, like if I'm about to pick up
that bowl. I want to throw it across the room.
There is a split second where I can go, you
know what, I think it's better if you put that
thing down. But that requires that regulation, and for a
lot of people, that regulation has never been explored. I

(51:49):
didn't get it as a kid, right, especially if say,
for example, Mum or Dad go, it's just a boisterous boy,
or you know boys are like that. Well no, actually
boys aren't. Like they just need a helping hand, a
guiding in a relationship, which is you know what, you're

(52:10):
actually better off not doing that because you keep doing it,
you're going to get more and more into trouble, and
then you're going to get more and more angry and
then things really fall apart.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
Yeah, it's such a weird you know, like the the
the ignorance of the father is handed to the son. Right,
You're like a man that wasn't trained in in other
ways to deal with his inner war. He's in a
travels and he's not in a position to pass on

(52:40):
much information of use to his son either, right, So.

Speaker 5 (52:44):
They're not there.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
Yeah, the things they're good at passing on is their
trauma or they're you know, their the suffering that they
went through themselves, hurt people, hurt people of course, so
you know we have this uh you know, they'regacy of
pain and of lack of understanding, but not the legacy

(53:07):
of encouragement, of reinforcement, of support, and of competency emotional.

Speaker 5 (53:15):
Yeah, because the first you know to me that the
first step in that is healing. I need to heal. Yeah,
you know, if I'm bleeding out, I can't really pay
too much attention on the next step.

Speaker 4 (53:28):
And the most self selfish time, like, and that's where
this whole idea of of pathologizing everything right is so inappropriate,
because we are selfish when we're in pain. We're selfish
when we're when we're hurt, right, So why make everything
hurt right?

Speaker 5 (53:47):
Yes? Right, paradoxygal Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
Yeah, so yeah, that selfishness is there to say, deal
with your wounds right and then set up a healing
process so that you can get back to making sure
that you're walking through life right and healing. It's we've
now because people are externally telling us we're broken, we're

(54:12):
now externally looking for solutions. Right. My wellness is in
the hands of my yoga teacher, my ice bath owner,
my my dosta my psychologists. Right, But of course there's
only one way to heal, and that's inside out. You can't.
These people are there to give help you find the

(54:34):
environment you need to heal, but the only healing that's
done is done by you.

Speaker 5 (54:39):
Now. The problem, the problem that I think socially we
encounter in this suspecting You know, you've got a lot
of people who in principle agree and then you get
this and all of that takes time.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
Yeah and yeah, yeah, investing its new new thing, right.

Speaker 11 (54:57):
Yeah, yeah, And so you know, the government it's a
constraint on how you can utilize helping resources and in
what way you can you know, and you know, don't
get me wrong, you know, I think we do need
to keep a finger on the pulse about you know,
how we're doing things and why are we're doing it

(55:19):
with what resources?

Speaker 5 (55:21):
There is a sense of resources, but you know we
are just you know, the amount of money that we
spend on psychotropic medication. If we just took a third
of that, it just opened the gates to a much
healthier community and much healthier individuals.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
It's so interesting, right, so interesting that you've got all
these people looking for like assistance in a like a
d or you know, a sort of altered state or whatever.

(56:04):
And yet, how does it feel being told you're loved?
How does it feel being told you're capable? How does
it feel being told your trusted, you're valued? Right, we
take kids and we give them messages of failure and

(56:28):
messages of sanction. I was reading a report where they
were saying, seventy of the communication between a parent and
a child is some form of control or criticism.

Speaker 5 (56:50):
Yeah, past orientation, that's the other one that fits in.

Speaker 4 (56:54):
Yeah, and most of the time we ask them to
do something and it's completely un necessary. So most of
what we tell or ask kids is unnecessary. Imagine if
we swapped that two. Wow, I just just popped into
my mind that I'm really really enjoying you as a person.

(57:17):
You were so much fun to be around. Our communication
was that what what would kids? And then what would
the adults that can't that don't inevitably occur at the
end of childhood? What would they be able to do?

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Right?

Speaker 12 (57:33):
Yeah, because you know that is the con you know,
that that process to connect with each other. And when
we do that, you know, one of the things that
I was actually talking to a group of like three
partners in the accounting for and they're having some issues,
and the whole hierarchical dominance thing was coming out, not

(57:55):
with the three, and the three are actually a step
above that, but with one of you know, with one
particular manager executive, and.

Speaker 5 (58:05):
And the point that I was making to them is, look,
you know, we can certainly pick up on the deficit,
but we actually need to establish a relationship with that person.
And one of them said, I have a really good
relationship with that person. I said, look, with respect, I
think you believe you have a good relationship with that person, right,

(58:29):
But this more to it, right, because the bit is
what's what's this person showing as opposed to what they're experiencing,
and the showing is what's what they believe is expected.
Right now. I didn't quite put it in exactly those words,
but that that was the core message, because you know,

(58:51):
you talk about the corporate mantle, right, I talk about
the corporate armor. You know, we're stuck in this tin can. Yeah. Yeah,
And some men in the well they have an inkling
often about that they really need to take it off.
But then feeling feeling bare with the wind blowing against

(59:13):
your beer's skin is a bit scary, right, So they
try to keep some mask going. And you know the
interesting thing.

Speaker 4 (59:22):
Is and they come home and treat their kids like employees. Yes,
they are separated from them and their partner by that
same armor.

Speaker 5 (59:33):
And part of that armor is, you know, keep performance indicators.
Take the eyes rather than going tell me how are
you going at the moment?

Speaker 4 (59:46):
Yeah, yeah, oh well you look sure you your customers
are happy, but you turned up five minutes late three
times this month. Right, we can not continue this relationship.
Bro KPIs are on tardiness, not on social interact and action,

(01:00:06):
the quality of relationships, the level of communication. All of
the things that should be valued are not valued because
we have this other empirical kind of bend that says,
you know, this is worth more money than the satisfaction
of the people around you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Right.

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
Yeah. I want to focus on something that you know,
I'm really connected with, and that's the kinsuki heroes.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
Wow yeah, cool, cool telling.

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
Me about how that came about and you're involvement with
it and silent.

Speaker 4 (01:00:41):
So Konsugi is the Japanese art that relates to crockery
pottery being broken and then repaired with the with gold
mortar or so and it like so many things in Japan,

(01:01:02):
they they they take it down to the micro. So
to become a master of kententugy takes years of study. Right.
So the way things are broken, the way things put together,
the mixing, the quality of the of the fix and
within that. Right, there are two aspects of kontugi, which

(01:01:23):
is both. The first is the esthetic. How can something
broken be even more beautiful than the original?

Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
How can something repaired and restored can be more valuable
than the original? Right? And I love that idea? Right?
And then of course, then the aesthetic is the process
of becoming restored, is this process of learning, of growing,
of becoming more so the thing is kinsugi tells us,

(01:01:57):
if we heal, we find value and beauty not in
being perfect, but the very imperfection of our experience.

Speaker 5 (01:02:09):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:02:10):
So oh yeah, so young, right? And and so kintugi
was something that I knew about, right, And there was
always this sense of relevance. So the founder of mentoring
men in West Moreland, amazing man, who is he? Let
he passed on mentoring men to you know, to the world.

(01:02:35):
And now he said, oh look you know, I need
to rest, so I'll start a brand new charity. Right,
That's the way he rests, And he wanted to tell
to He believes stories are powerful, and he believes that
they have the power to heal, to guide, to become something.
And so he came up with this idea. And it

(01:02:56):
was someone who suggested that's like kinsugi. And then so
he's come up with the idea of Kintigi heroes, that
people tell stories. They are like the mortar, repairing the
brokenness of circumstance, their lives or their community. So we
started telling stories. And you know, I signed up straight away.
I'm a director, but I explored an idea people have

(01:03:20):
telling me, have been telling me since my co you know,
earliest days, that I should do talking for a living. Right,
because I had signed up to that, Well, that is
of no value to anyone. I'll be going and making
my six figure salary, thank you very much. Right, you know,
I didn't like it wasn't value. Now I am doing

(01:03:42):
so I had a chance to do something that was
absolutely intrinsic to who I am, right, So suddenly I felt, Wow,
I'm finally being the expression of my identity is real, Right,
this is where I should be and it's even by
my curiosity. What you said earlier is perfect. The idea

(01:04:04):
of sitting down and having a coffee and a chat
with someone is something I just can't imagine doing without.
It's so wonderful. And now I get to do that
to produce an outcome that other people can share. Right,
And so the person I'm talking to, our value is

(01:04:25):
our values. Our vision is to help you tell your
story that you need to share so that others who
need to hear your story can hear it. Right. So
beautiful and I I just feel so privileged to do

(01:04:47):
to be a part of doing that. And we've we've
now you know, we've got a couple of hundred stories logged.
We've we've picked up grants to do projects. So we've
done a project on the fires in Black Sunday, you know,
summer fires. We've done floods in Hunter Valley and now

(01:05:08):
we just finished one in the River Murray which was extraordinary.
We've got Connecting Seniors, and we've got a new project
for part two of Connecting Seniors. We've got the experience
of immigrants in Australia called from There to Hit. We've
got the impact of animals and lives. We've got animals
in us, you know. So we've got these stories coming

(01:05:29):
out with people telling them, and I don't know how
it's going to make a difference. I just know it
is right.

Speaker 5 (01:05:39):
So the pebble in the pond, John, and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
That's I saw. That demonstrated one of the blokes we
spoke to early on in the River Murray project. They
had terrible floods in twenty two twenty three, thousands of
houses and people and businesses and all sorts of things, right,
but also stories of triumph and you know, dominable with

(01:06:06):
wills and so on. And one of the bikes I
spoke to was quite famous for taking photos every day
because the thing about the River Murray floods is they
take months to come along, right, So he took photos
of the water slowly rising every day. And he became
quite famous because he documented this kind of the journey

(01:06:29):
of people, you know, from sort of you know, ignoring
it to fear to recovery. Yeah. Uh, and well I
had to talk to him. His story in itself was
quite quite crazy, you know. It was he was on
a disability. He had a terrible accident he had a

(01:06:50):
checkered background and he you know, now you know he
was he had reinvented himself by the river. He found
this place of peace and he was physically healing, he
was emotionally growing right, and he had so you know,
he was shaped his childhood and lack of expectation and

(01:07:14):
so anyway, he'd found photography. He was taking photos of
the river and the animals and logos, and he got
this platform and he became kind of well known, and
then he got followed, and then we spoke to him,
and then we highlighted him. I put him on you know,
we put it. He's in a book. We produced a

(01:07:34):
book and and his photos are going around. And at
the book launch, he was on the panel. I was
speaking to him, and he was so articulate and he
was so helpful. And he brought his mother and father
and sister and aunt a logue right, and they were

(01:07:55):
sitting there watching us talk and ask him questions and
highlight his creativity in his gene And I heard his
dad say he was signing the book for someone. And
I heard his dad say, you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
Know, I.

Speaker 4 (01:08:10):
Was knew you knows. It's wonderful to see him finally
get you do something like this, you know, and like
in his dad, you can just imagine the dialogue of
this guy's life, how wonderful he had suddenly given a
platform and an opportunity and a bit of encouragement he
had blossomed. I just that just made like it just

(01:08:37):
gave me that moment of confirmation about what we're doing.
Why this is important, not just the particular act, but
the impact the ripple of that story of that stone
into the pond of life is making it hits the
shore somewhere that transforms. Yes, does that.

Speaker 5 (01:08:59):
Make a huge, huge in the connection to country.

Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
So important? Like I turned up in the river and
I like I suddenly understood and everyone I spoke to,
I spoke to more than a dozen people on podcasts,
and the reason like it is such a tough place
to live. Yeah, right, But the reason they're there is

(01:09:30):
not because they're making money or because it's beautiful and
some of you know, some of you know it is beautiful,
But they're there because it's in their soul. There's some
sort of connection that has drawn them to this place.
It is their identity. They are river people, and they
find they're they're they're they're the lucky ones. They're the

(01:09:52):
person who has looked out from the coffee shop and said,
my wealth is in my land, not that I own it,
but then I'm a part of it.

Speaker 5 (01:10:00):
Yeah. What a wonderful story and a great project it was.

Speaker 4 (01:10:06):
I'm so looking. I'm so lucky and like so grateful
to have that opportunity. And I want to do the same,
like because I believe men and their struggles at the moment,
and like the stats are not good this year, and
I know they're awful. Yeah, And I think like being
part of a land and being recognized and also being

(01:10:26):
given the license to take time to realize that that
the healing can be done by you with support of
other men. You don't need necessarily. There's a lot of
resources out there that are used to but that it
has to start with you sitting down with an elder
and maybe having a real conversation, having one of those conversations, right, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:10:50):
Yeah, Actually think about the indigenous community.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):
The yarning so true they and the ability like it's
not you know, it's not it's not soft. You know,
unicorns and roses, Right, you are accountable to be a
man to walk the to walk your land to eat

(01:11:16):
your responsibilities. I love the indigenous culture because, uh, and
what it has to teach us in this space, because
you know, at its best, that responsibility is back to
the land, right, you know, you know it's not like
you know, we we we give. The hierarchy starts not

(01:11:38):
with the man, but the land. And yeah, and the
connection collaboration is so important.

Speaker 5 (01:11:46):
Yeah, absolutely, John, We could go on for I.

Speaker 4 (01:11:51):
Feel like I feel like that's just open the subject
list right, like you know, I feel like I would
I need to up again soon to explore some of
the things.

Speaker 5 (01:12:02):
We will we will, we will, Yeah, because I think
you know, yes, we can have you know, lots of
government money and all that stuff. It's got to be
at the grassroots level.

Speaker 4 (01:12:18):
Absolutely spot on. Good because there's two things, you know,
there's the three c's I want to pass on to everybody.
First of all, you know, it's capacity, right, we need
to learn right and at the moment there's still a
room for a lot of us blokes to improve our
understanding of the world and our understanding of ourselves. It

(01:12:38):
starts with goods. The second one is connection. We are
designed to connect. We must connect if we are to achieve,
achieve anything great in the world that doesn't involve hurting someone,
then we probably need to connect with someone. And the
third one is and this is the one that I
think where we need to work on first, and it

(01:12:59):
is about very much about one man helping another bloke
find it. And it's confidence, right, you need to step
to yourself and your role in the community. You need
to have the confidence to make a difference, right. And
and it's a you know, it's not easy. It takes courage,
it takes commitment, lots of seas involved, but confidence the

(01:13:23):
place we need. We need to step into that out.

Speaker 5 (01:13:27):
Yeah on that, John, let me thank you for bringing
your wisdom, your humility and your story to inspire change.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
Mate. Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (01:13:40):
It just we need to get away from that idea
that we need to fix what's broken. That's in a
nutshell so true. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:13:52):
It's an absolute privilege to to be, you know, to
be to sit at the table with a man who's
not a guru, but he still inspires me every day.
Thank you brother.

Speaker 5 (01:14:03):
Do you until next time. What I want to say
to the community is educate, and activate and share. This
is fundamental. People like John you know out there in
the community, we can connect with them. You know there's

(01:14:26):
there's there's no need to have barriers of communication. So
stay true, stay open, and remember your story is never over,
You're just getting started Until next time. This is Daunta
signing off.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
Love to hear from you, and.

Speaker 4 (01:14:44):
If you're interested, please check out my work.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
On w w W dot govoter.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
Dot com or w w W dot Goodman graat dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Thank you for listening to Inspire Change, a broadcast that
strives to educate, motivate, and empower men to challenge traditions
of masculinity. For more information on the Making Good Men
Great movement, or for individual or group coaching sessions with Gunter,
visit goodmengrade dot com.

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Inspire Change SEASON 7-290 Man to Man - A Mindful Conversation with John Milham

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Inspire Change SEASON 7-290 Man to Man - A Mindful Conversation with John Milham