In episode three of the Founding Fathers' Legacy Series, Former Washington D.C Mayor Sharon Pratt examines Montpelier, the family home of James Madison and the place that shaped his life. It is a place where he spent countless hours drafting iterations of his vision for a strong national government. It is also a place which embodies the paradoxes of the American Revolution – the fight for liberty while aggressively preserving the practice of slavery.
Sharon Pratt speaks with Dr. Matthew Reeves, Director of Archaeology and Landscape Restoration at Montpelier for over 20 years. Dr. Reeves works to excavate the stories of those who were essential to America's (and certainly Madison's) economic progress.
She also speaks with Dr. Holly Cowan Shulman, who is the Editor of The Dolley Madison Digital Edition at the University of Virginia, the first ever complete edition of Dolley Madison's own correspondence. Her diligent scholarship provides new insights into the Madison’s as partners and their experiences at Montpelier.
Next episode, we will delve into James Madison’s legacy with James French, the Chairman of the Montpelier Foundation Board of Directors and founding Chairman of the Montpelier Descendant Committee.
Sharon Pratt speaks with Dr. Matthew Reeves, Director of Archaeology and Landscape Restoration at Montpelier for over 20 years. Dr. Reeves works to excavate the stories of those who were essential to America's (and certainly Madison's) economic progress.
She also speaks with Dr. Holly Cowan Shulman, who is the Editor of The Dolley Madison Digital Edition at the University of Virginia, the first ever complete edition of Dolley Madison's own correspondence. Her diligent scholarship provides new insights into the Madison’s as partners and their experiences at Montpelier.
Next episode, we will delve into James Madison’s legacy with James French, the Chairman of the Montpelier Foundation Board of Directors and founding Chairman of the Montpelier Descendant Committee.
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Episode Transcript
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This is the Founding Father's Legacy series. I'm Sharon Pratt and in this episode
we will introduce our listeners to Montpellier, the family home of James Madison.
In the last episode, we learnmore about revolutionary America the newly formed United
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States, all of which helped toprovide contexts for the decisions the Founding Fathers
made in shaping our Constitution and inspireddocument, but still one replete with accommodations
to the institution of slavery, andhow such considerations even influenced the location of
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our nation's capital. Now it istime to focus on a place that shaped
James Madison's life. It is aplace where he spent countless hours drafting orations
of his vision for a strong nationalgovernment. It is also a place which
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embodies the paradoxes of the American Revolution, the fight for liberty while aggressively preserving
the practice of slavery. Montpellier wasthe home James Madison always returned to,
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although he traveled to many places hiseducation at the College of New Jersey now
known as Princeton, the Continental Congressin Philadelphia, the Virginia Assembly, and
the Constitutional Convention once again in Philadelphia, then to New York City for the
first Federal Congress, wherever Montpellier washis home base. It was at Montpellier
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where a thirty six year old Madisonholed up in his library, a library
built by enslaved children, studied politicalphilosophy and the histories of Republican forms of
government. Six months of studying andscribbling led up to the seventeen eighty seven
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Constitutional Convention and resulted in his document, known as the Virginia Plan, which
provided the framework for the three branchesof government, the legislative branch, the
executive branch, and the judicial branch. In seventeen ninety seven, James Madison
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and his wife of three years,Dolly Madison, moved back to Montpellier after
living in the nation's interim capital ofPhiladelphia, where Madison had served in the
Congress. But in eighteen oh one, the Madisons moved to the brand new
nation capital, Washington, d C. So that Madison could serve as Thomas
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Jefferson's Secretary of State. Their stayin Washington proved longer than expected. At
the end of President Jefferson's time inthe White House, Madison was the clear
choice for President. He was swornin as our fourth president in eighteen o
nine and served two full terms.The Madisons finally retired to Montpellier in eighteen
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seventeen, where he focused on hiseconomic status his plantation profits. It was
touch and go, but Montpellier managedto eke out sufficient profits because of the
skill and work of his hundred plusenslaved African Americans. In eighteen thirty six,
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at the age of eighty five,James Madison died at Montpellier. He
was the last of the founding fallto pass away. With doctor Matthew Reeves
expertise in the archeology of the plantation, we will examine life at Montpelier for
the Madisons and their enslaved labor.We will then delve into how James and
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his wife, Dolly's personal and politicalpartnership evolved through the lens of doctor Holly
Cowan Schulmann. Doctor Matthew Reeves hasbeen the Director of Archaeology and Landscape Restoration
at Montpelier for over twenty years,and his interests and expertise center on the
sites of the African diaspora, especiallyplantations. Doctor Reeves works to excavate the
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stories of those who were essential toAmerica and therefore the Madison's economic progress.
Thank you, doctor Reeves for speakingwith me. What has been your principal
focus in this capacity at Montpelier.My principal focus at Mountpelier has been too
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and my specialty, my background ishas been for all my career archaeology of
the African diaspora, and I've developedin my field work in Jamaica looking at
early nineteenth century settlements of enslaved Jamaicans, working with descendant communities and bringing really
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using the archaeology has its best beenput by my friend James French as a
memory device, is bringing reconciling someof that loss of memory that happened with
enslavement, you know, which isits context is all across the African Atlantic,
some of the same methods we usebrutal methods to separate the people from
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their loved ones initially from their culture, from their society, from their ideas,
and use archaeology as as a wayto reconcile that and reconcile it not
between you know, white people andblack people, but reconcile it between black
people today and their ancestors. Andarchaeology is one of those links for that
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and one of the things that reallyreally brought this together has been my work
in Montpelier for the past twenty years. In terms of I've always had an
interest in the African yes for aarchaeology. When you look at a place
like Montpelier where at one time they'reover one hundred enslaved individuals, when you
start to do survey across the landscapeand find sites and find artifacts, almost
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every single artifact you find was eitherproduced, used, or last touch by
a member of the enslaved community.And so what you begin to build is
a presence of that community on thelandscape as you find sites. And that
makes the coincidence of that with descendantsso incredibly important. And it's what's exciting
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about Montpelier is it's a place thatyou know, it's a place of national
importance, you know, and itsown right because of the scale of what
happened here and the community who ishere. But it becomes a place of
national importance because of the person thatowned it in the late eighteenth and early
nineteenth century, President James Madison.It happens to be the place where Madison
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literally wrote the Virginia Plan that becamethe basis for the Constitution. And this
is something that is not just recognizedby historians of the Constitution and you know,
biographers of Madison, it's recognized bythe descendant community as is why Montpellier
is an important place for them andtheir families. And you know, for
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years there were there was um nota lot of indication that there was a
place for descendants, much less blackpeople at Montpellier. Sharon, what you're
just saying about DC and being interestedin the founding of DC. When you
were saying that, ben mind wasworrying because I was thinking when medicine and
Jefferson, of course we're involved asWashington too. Of course we're involved in
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the layout of Washington, DC.And much in the same way that on
their plantations they were using enslaved labor, enslave individuals as labor, that too
was happening in DC. And whatwe have, you know, just unqualifiable
evidence for when you look at beginto look at some of the archaeological sites
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and landscapes at Montpellier is the influenceof enslaved Americans, enslaved Black Americans,
as you know, not just laborers, but engineers, as hydrologists, as
h soil scientists, and how allthis contributes to everything from how you move
soil to how you you know whatwhat soil you choose to to to to
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make bricks and how well you firethem and how we have so many cases
we've seen direct evidence that it isthe black farmers, the engineers, the
soil scientists who were enslaved at Montpellierthat allowed that to happen, not just
from their hands, but from theirminds. And so you can't divorce this
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from the founding of DC, fromthe layout of the capitol. What who
would have known the soils, whatwould have been like you know, why
the mall was probably the last placeto be developed because it was a marsh,
and how to develop that you knowlater? You know, all this
is tied with a landscape, aknowledge of the landscape. And so how
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many enslaved people were there at Montpelierat any one time between the seventeen eighties
through the eighteen thirties, there isabout one hundred to one hundred and twenty,
So altogether we're estimating there would havebeen between three and four one hundred
individuals enslaved who lived at Montpellier,No, many of whom were buried on
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the lands at the burial ground atMontpellier. What was the living circumstance for
the enslaved there? It was umone that was probably pretty standard, very
standard for other enslaved families, otherwhite families of the time period. Uh,
most most individuals enslaved Americans that Montpellierwere living in log structures that where
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you'd have anywhere between you know,six to eight household members in a probably
at twelve by fourteen foot space andyou know, it sounds rather, you
know, very minimalistic, but atthe time, when you're trying to keep
warm in the winter, being ina small space has its advantages. Um.
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And what the generational ties that theslaved Americans at Montpellier had, the
community members had at Montpellier allowed themto do was to you know, produce
their own household items through gardens.That they tended to have economic relationships with
merchants in the area to purchase items. And that we've we've found evidence in
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the archaeological record that they are thatthe enslaved, enslaved households are accumulating some
degree of material wealth and all thisreally speaks to you know, when you
think about an enslaved family enslaved individualowning items that they're they're working to attain
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and in making decisions about what tobude to represent who they are. It
shows a real issues and an identitythat is bound to this country, to
America, to the region issues,an identity that really UM speaks to UM,
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you know, having an investment inthe society for the time period.
And when you look at what happensafter emancipation, and this is some twenty
years after people were sold from mypillar and sold more than likely to the
Deep South and the Cotton Kingdom,you know, through Richmond, down through
New Orleans or down through the Valley. UM it people return, people return
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to this area because of those connections. And so what you see is,
you know, it's a it's anidentity of being American that uh, you
know, those individual individuals who arekept from having a certain item, whether
it's food, freedom, ability toUM have control of their their you know,
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what happens to their loved ones.It it makes them think about this
more than people that have this asa as a and as you know,
just an assumption or a as agiven UM. And it when you start
thinking about who the you know,the enslaved people were at mont Pillar and
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all these plantations and in Washington,DC. And what how strong an idea
of liberty and individual rights this countryhas. You can't help but wonder what
those enslaved individuals contributed to those ideasand what, you know, what influenced
these Founding fathers in what they werewriting about. You know, you know,
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because Washington, Jefferson, Madison allwere interacting on a you know,
on a on a daily basis,whether they were at their plantation homes or
in DC with black Americans who areenslaved. And that was a constant that
that that that um, that negotiationbetween uh them as free white men and
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these enslaved individuals was a constant reminderof what is liberty and what is not
And that had to have honed thisconcept that we, you know, as
Americans hold dear and put at thefeet of Madison, Jefferson, Washington and
other Founding fathers too. You know, it's a it's a it's a much
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more complex history, and it's amuch more you know, rich history that
we can never begin to even thinkabout. When you think about the ideas
and contributions of all of the peopleat these at this time period, and
uh, you know it. Andit's not too hard to draw this connection
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between these individuals like Madison, Jefferson, and Washington when you look at how
present black Americans were in their lifeand how they had literally tied their everyday
actions and really in so many waysdepended on enslaved Americans from everything from their
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personal activities down to their wealth.I know, Hassan Jeffrey speaks of how
these children, enslaved children built Madison'slibrary and when you're down there, they
have a home, you know,where they were lodged. Was that a
commonplace among plantation owners to have childrenworking like this? I mean, I
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know children work, but I meanthat's pretty extraordinary. I think you mean
in the cellar. Yes, yeah, you know, what we've found with
the archaeology is that people enslaved Americanscommunity members that Montpellier lived where they work
and when they were working for theMadisons and the house, they were made
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to be ever present and immediately available. And so yeah, there we've found
evidence for enslaved living in the inthe sellers, in the kitchens, even
found it in the in a ina in a tobacco barn and over at
the main farm complex. It wasused for smoke curing tobacco. And there's
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no doubt that, you know,one thing that Madison and and and his
economic hilt did was look for economicefficiency with labor and where children and old
people could be taken advantage of themirror fact that bricks were being made by
children. And you find children's fingerprintsin bricks. Uh. You know when
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you look at um at period offarm books and they're talking about weeding gangs,
those are children. Uh. Youknow, it's all uh terribly and
horribly economically efficient, you know,in terms of love labor. And they
enslave built all of the you knowbuildings that you know, all of the
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facilities at Mountpellier. I mean it'sbecause Madison. I mean, I guess
it's not as imposing as one couldargue some homes, but it's a pretty
significant home. Uh and you know, um a lovely dining room, etc.
So that was done all by enslavedpeople. Correct. Absolutely. And
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one one thing we've found is thatyou know, um, when historians and
other architects, historic architects talk aboutyou know, enslaved building structures, they
often talk about how there'll be awhite master craftsman like a mason or a
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carpenter that will come in and trainenslaved Americans to do the work. So,
you know, so that will bemade, you know, so there'll
be many hands doing the work.And one thing that I found fascinating is
that um when Madison, when Dollyand James Madison and arranged out of the
wings added to the house in eighteeno nine. The mason that they use
as this man named Hugh Chisholm,who by that time is at the peak
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of his alcoholic career and at thebottom of his masonry career. And the
wings that he builds on the houseare so poorly constructed that when the um
when when the house is purchased bythe next owner in the eighteen forties,
they have to stucco the house tokeep it from falling apart. And that
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stucco when we removed it, thatwas one of the most costly aspects of
the restoration. But much late laterin the in the in this reconstruction period
in the eighteen teens, this iswhen the ice house is built in the
columns for the for the templar builtand those are that structure is so well
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built that without any stabilization whatsoever.It withstands that earthquake we had, remember
in twenty and eleven, I hadno damn it at all. And the
structural engineers said that if the wingshad gone through the earthquake with without the
restoration, they would have collapsed.So you think about, you know,
hugeism, isn't getting to be abetter mason in the eighteen to elevens.
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It's it's the enslaved who are doingthe work, and they're the ones that
are probably the ones who are designingthe elements of masonry, making the bricks
in a way that is successful forthe ice house and the temple, and
so it's, you know, it'sit's these these these gaps that that no
one talks about, where when youlook at the material record and there's nothing
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mentioned in the historical record that youknow, the folks that are filling that
that gap and allowing things to bea success are the enslaved. And purposefully,
you know, Madison and others whenthey write about know the enslaved individuals
they own, they either talk aboutthem in a as you know, we
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are doing this work, or evenI am doing this work. Medicinal write
about this, and he was writingto a gentleman named mister Minor who talks
about this. Or they'll talk aboutmy hands, not his hands, but
you know, right so hands asthey're divorced from a mind, it speaks
to you know, when someone hasa pathology, oftentimes they'll express their they'll
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avoid some of their greatest fears orcritique someone for the greatest fears about who
they are. And I think foryou know, for these slave owners,
one of their greatest fears was losingcontrol of the people they enslaved, not
being able to access what enslaved hadthe most control over. And what the
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most control over wasn't their labor.They could be threatened to work, but
what was in their minds you can'tget somewhere. I mean, that's where
you know, some of the mostinsane forms of torture are designed in many
cases to extract things from people's minds. If you own those people, you're
you know, it's in these aren'tThese things aren't talked about. They're not
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talked about, and it's it's it'sthose gaps that really begin to fill in
this history. And you know,it does seem like some with some of
the achievements of Madison, Jefferson,and Washington, that they are God's and
it's only because they have, youknow, this cadre of intellectual and labor
support that is made invisible that theyseem this way. And in some ways,
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what I'd like to tell visitors thatthe inventor is you know, if
you really want to understand Madison forhis achievements, understand him as a human
being, not as a god.I mean, God can do anything that
God could, you know, asweak and see if the gods can build
a house with blinking their eyes,who knows, you know, all sorts
of things you can do. Butif he Madison is a human, what
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he achieved is even more remarkable.And as a flawed human who enslave people,
and you begin to start to piecetogether that, yeah, Madison was
this great intellectual, you know,just amazing intellectual. But he's also you
know who who's working beside him?Are all these people that are unrecognized today?
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Madison does fall on tough times thatthe plantation is economically troubled. Why
did that happen? Is it becausehe was gone so much they didn't rotate
the crops enough. What happened.One of the several ideas that I have
about this that need to be testedthrough looking at some of the books that
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the account books at the time period, if they're unavailable, is one of
the things that he did that reallyimperiled the economy of Montpellier in the eighteen
teens is when his father died ineighteen o one. His father had diversified
the economy of the plantation by havinga massive blacksmith's shop, by being a
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merchant for the region. And whatMadison wanted to do, along with ideas
that he had exchanged with Jefferson,is to become more of a scientific farmer.
And so he he closed his theblacksmith's shop that run all through the
eighteenth century, reduced it in size, and moved it. Moved it to
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another site just below where the visitorcenter is. We excavated that about a
year ago. UM and then alsoput a heavy emphasis on scientific farming,
you know, contour applowing looking toum to ensure that you know, erosion
didn't happen, maneuvering of fields,and tried to starting as an innerds of
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retirement in the eighteen teams. Hewrites in the eighteen thirties that he didn't
have a one successful season where hewas able to clear a profit, and
so in terms of his business acumen, you know, he would have been
much better off, um, youknow, marketing items to the local community,
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to the region as opposed to tryingto do an export based economy like
like he did with grains being soldin tobacco being sold to England. Um.
But then one thing that he diddo that's they're not often mentioned is
there's hints in his letters where hewrites about setting up setting up cabins for
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the enslaved to live in where theywill have the will they will have families,
and you think about you know,what do you get when you have
a family? More property? Yeah, more property. You know, I
don't want to say it's chilling,because to say it's chilling is to say
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that it's it's um, it shouldn'tbe expected. He uses some he's very
pragmatic about ensuring that his enslaved individualsare reproducing. And this is not any
different than any other planter of thetime too, for you know, enslaved
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enslaver of the time period, andby the time you get to the eighteen
twenties and thirties. You know,there are there's a thriving practice and the
intercontinental trade of individuals, enslaved individuals. So that's where he really is able
to ensure the economic future of borrowagainst the enslaved bodies and borrow against you
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know, the bodies that we're servingmeals and house. To guess, it's
literally that that capital is there tobe seen. And so he probably I
imagined that in his later years he'sprobably given up on doing any kind of
the farming economy, like he attemptsto do some farming and selling of tobacco,
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which I think it's one of theareas he's still able to make a
profit on. And I can sharedI can send you some of the some
of the survey reports we've done inwhat we call the Eastwoods of Montpelire where
we found these tobacco fields and foundevidence through light our studies of the drainage
canals that the enslaved created to drainthese low areas where all the soil it
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had roded down and created these richbeds of top soul for growing tobacco.
The landscaping and the engineering that arethere that some of the few areas where
Madison was able to produce a profitcomes from the intellectual success and achievements of
the enslaved, and so, youknow, and I would imagine those would
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have been individuals. When he solda group of um of fifteen enslaved in
the eighteen thirties, probably he waschoosing who to sell based on, you
know, who would have the leastintellectual impact on the plantation. Finally,
as an epilogue to it all,is do you walk away with a positive
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opinion of James Madison? I wouldsay, you know, from my feelings
about mister Madison, I feel likewhat I really admire about him is his
his his his his pensiont for theScottish enlightenment of critical thought. That's what
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he used to build the constitution thatforms the basis of American government today.
And I'd like to think that ifhe was able to come back and see
what we're doing at Montpellier with theDescendant Committee, with co stewardship of not
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just his family, of his land, but the enslaved family's land as well,
he would see this as a youknow, he would probably have to
put aside his you know, theracism, the healed, He healed as
a as a as a person umand this he's dead now, so maybe
he'd be able to do this,But I think he would take it as
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an opportunity to really be excited abouthow we can use you know, this
combined history, you know, notjust one person's story, but all of
these people's story to understand not justwhat happened in the eighteen seventeen nineties or
the eighteen twenties, but what's happeningtoday. What you know? Who who
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can true? Who were? Whoare the founders of this country? Were
they? Were they that you know, these great white men, we were
you know, as the NBC talksabout visit these invisible founders, you know
so many. It was this effortthat you this sum is so much greater
than the whole. And I thinkhe would be. I think he had
enough curiosity where I think he wouldbe. He would be excited about what
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we're doing today, and um hehe. I don't think he ever wanted
to be put on a pedestal likeuh, I know mister Jefferson wanted.
You know, when Madison dies,he's buried in an unmarked grave at his
own choice, and it's only twentyyears later that the next owner builds that
massive obelisk in the Madison family cemeteryand literally, you know, they have
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to Madison is rolling in his gravebecause they have to dig his his his
coffin up and open it up toidentify that make sure it was him,
and then they built the obelisk.So you know, there's a testimony in
the landscape about Madison's contributions to theConstitution, to what he did at Montpeliar
that really lend themselves to you know, taking a Madisonian approach to how we
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intellectually, how we approach the pastand bring all these factors in and think
about not just these are givens thathappened in the United States, but use
critical thought to unpack all this information. And I think I think, you
know, for whatever feeling that leadsme, I would be excited to talk
with Madison about what we're mister Madison, about what we're doing and see what
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his thoughts were and are and souh yeah, as a as a person
and what is actions resulted in likehe and others, there's a lot to
be desired. Um. Yeah,but but but there was there was so
much more to him there was,you know, enough for you to have
a very hopeful notions of him,and that he would be intellectually agile enough
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to appreciate the initiatives that are areoccurring today. Yeah, I think he
would see that as um as constitutionaldemocracy succeeded, you know that that that
the ability to extend this fear toinclude more people, more ideas successfully into
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a country that we have today,that would be a great source of pride
for him. And um I youknow, he didn't have it all figured
out for how to you know,make this work. He knew the institution
of slavery was potentially going to bethe downfall of everything that he and other
founders had conceived. But um Ithink you'd be excited about, you know,
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the possibilities we've got today. Next, we will speak with doctor Holly
Cowan Schulman, who was editor ofthe Dolly Madison Digital Edition at the University
of Virginia, the first ever completeedition of Dolly Madison's own correspondence. Her
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diligent scholarship provides new insights into theMadisons as partners and their experiences at Mountpelier.
What we want to do today isunderstand Dolly Madison. And let's begin
at the beginning on Lisa. Interms of this relationship with James Madison.
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Dolly Madison was reared in Philadelphia,is that correct? Dolly Madison. Actually,
she was born in North Carolina andspent her childhood in Hanover County,
Virginia. And her parents were bothQuaker, anti slavery and also slave owners.
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And in seventeen eighty three, whenit became legal in Virginia to emancipate
their slaves, they did that andthey moved to Philadelphia, as I say,
in seventeen eighty three, Dolly Madisonthere for her her natal family.
Her parents were devout, if youcan use that word, Quakers, and
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her first husband was a Quaker whowas an important attorney for the Pennsylvania Abolition
Society, and he died in seventeenninety three within a yellow epidemic. She
married James Madison less than a yearlater. Her father died in seventeen ninety
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two. She has two older brothers, both of whom have more or less
disappeared by seventeen ninety four, andshe leaves the city during the epidemic and
survives, although her baby doesn't.He's about six or eight weeks old.
But she returns to Philadelphia, andat that time she meets James Madison,
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who, according to one of ourearliest horses, a niece of Dolly Madison's,
I saw Dolly walking down the streetand decided that she was the woman
for him. And so it wasJames Madison who was the one in hot
pursuit because he seems sort of reclusive. That's surprising. He's shy. He
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had been engaged once and his fiancehad broken off the relationship. But he
mounted a campaign, and he mounteda campaign and for which we don't have
a lot of evidence, but wehave a wonderful letter from the wife of
another cousin, also named Cole's Dolly'sDolly's mother's maiden name was Coles, saying
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that essentially that that James Madison,he cannot stop thinking about you. You
enter his dreams and he's told methat I can tell you this. Wow.
Well that's interesting. And so itseemed to have been quite the perfect
match. I mean, she wasthe extrovert, which he desperately needed.
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He was the great intellect. Soseemingly was a great match. Is that
a fair characterization? I suspect itwas a very good marriage. I think
when she married him she was lookingfor several things. She was clearly the
most important thing decision a woman couldmake, The most important career decision a
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woman could make in that era,was who she married. Your marriage was
your most important decision as an adultwoman. And her first husband had been
a successful lawyer. He probably wouldhave become a very successful lawyer. But
now she needed a second husband,and she was falling out with the Quakers.
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And I think she had loved livingin Virginia as a child, so
I think marrying a Virginian was somethingthat was attractive to her. And James
Madison was, of course financially,socially, politically successful, and so she
married him. I don't know howmuch she was in love with him when
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she married, but there's no evidenceexcept that they were a happy couple who
were well suited for each other.Yes, So after they marry and they
moved to his home Montpellier, isthat correct? Well, he doesn't retire
from politics until seventeen ninety seven.From there, there are a couple of
years in their marriage when they're backand forth. Then in seventeen ninety seven,
(36:39):
he retires from politics. They livedpermanently at Montpelier. In eighteen o
one, as you know, ThomasJefferson was elected president and asked James Madison
to be his Secretary of State.And may I just say, at that
point the secretary of State was notonly external affairs but internal affairs. He
was the home Secretary and foreign secretary. James Madison stays at Montpelier for another
(37:04):
couple of months to put his housein order because his father had died and
he needed to get everything, youknow, all the legal work done and
so on and so forth. Andthen in May the Madisons moved to Washington,
d C. Where they are whichis their primary residence until after his
(37:25):
presidency in eighteen seventeen. They leavein eight eighteen seventy. Washington, d
C. Was quite a small city, and the District of Columbia, as
you know, was larger than WashingtonCity, and they lived in the center
of Washington City and were active.There were congressmen and senators who lived in
(37:47):
Georgetown, and there were a fewwho lived near the capital, but the
center of activity and where most Democratslived was where the Madizins lived, near
the White House. I've often wondered, and I'm gonna ask you, why
would these Chickenlali menus Landed Gentry,you know, Madison, Jefferson, Washington,
(38:13):
why would they want to take onthe most formidable navy in the world.
I mean, they've got you've gotto be really exercised to do something
as audacious as that. Well,there's been a lot of inks built over
that question, as you know,And the question in Virginia was a question
of indebtedness to London merchants and wouldthey be better off if they could get
(38:38):
rid of their debt. Madison Ithink truly believed in a unique future and
a unique republican future for America.Today. We ask a series of different
questions about what that democracy or republicshould mean. So it would never have
(39:00):
heard, for example, to JamesMadison to think women should have the vote.
But then he didn't think even thatall white men should have the vote,
and it certainly didn't occur to himthat African American men should have the
vote. So his notion about whata republic was in let's say seventeen ninety
or eighteen hundred was limited in away that's I think, at some level
(39:24):
really not understandable today that it seemsso retrograde, if you will, so
narrow in vision. But if welook at ourselves at him at his own
time, he was a progressive manwho believed that people, white men,
people should have a voice in theirgovernment, and that that government should be
(39:50):
responsive to the people as defined nowfor a man. For a woman,
for example, it was assumed thather voice was exercised by her husband,
and for an enslaved man, theassumption was that he needn't have a voice.
But you know, as I say, these things are very contentious and
(40:14):
uncomfortable today. But it doesn't meanI don't believe. It doesn't mean that
he was either an illiberal or abad man. It means that he was
a man of his times. Yes. So what about the influence of Dolly
in this sphere? I mean,did she have any education? No,
not really, not the way hedid she. In fact, if you
(40:37):
follow her correspondence from when she methim to win he dies, I think
her writing gets better as she helpsedit his papers and do his correspondence,
help with his correspondence and so on. And to the extent that she read.
She liked poetry and novels, whichwas typical for women of that period.
(40:59):
She was not engaged in political philosophy, but she was certainly literate.
She certainly read, She certainly wouldwould have read the newspaper. But she
would also have been concerned with fashionand her network of friends, and she
loved to gossip. And she wasa very in that sense, traditionally womanly
(41:22):
woman. She was not interested inpolitics. The way, for example Abigail
Adams was that decided didn't have animportant role when Abigail Adams came to Washington,
DC, which they did for thelast four months of adams administration.
Abigail Adams had no idea what todo with the White House, which in
(41:43):
any case was unfinished. And AbigailAdams, as a first Lady's behalf of
her half of his term looking aftertheir farm in Massachusetts. So well educated
as she was, and as fulsomeas their core respondence was, that did
not really mean that Abigail Adams wassuited to be the first Lady of the
(42:06):
nation. Dolly is a far moreengaging and and humanly interested and if you
will, to use the word again, flamboyant person. She likes people,
She's concerned about people, and soshe sets about having an evening, and
(42:29):
she knows her husband is shy,so they're not going to follow the federalist
path. They can't follow the bachelor'spath. So what she does is she
established these Wednesday evening parties which soonbecome very popular and are known as squeezes.
He comes together her parties. Wow. So I mean she sort of
(42:50):
is the template? Is she notfor the first Lady? I mean she's
the one who establishes that template.I have argued that the first lady ship,
the traditional first ladyship as we knowit, was started by Dolly Madison,
and then that mold was broken byEleanor Roosevelt, and that's quite a
(43:12):
long period of time. Eleanor Rooseveltis an examplar of what we call first
wave feminism. She doesn't she doesn'tbelieve that women have no role, although
she doesn't force it in the waythe second wave feminists will. But it's
Eleanor Roosevelt, for example, whobelieves that women reporters, women journals are
(43:35):
important. So she holds press conferences, but she holds women's press conferences,
and she writes your own newspaper callon the she becomes involved in all kinds
of things and transgresses, of course, boundaries of race. With her friendship
with Mary McLoud Befoon Dolly Madison,I think is the beginning of what we
know of as the distaff side ofthe presidency. The first Lady tell me
(44:00):
about Dolly Madison's philosophies. I knowshe is reared by Quakers. But is
she, for example, as weddedto the notion of abolition as ultimately her
father must have been if he imman, if he freed his enslaved people.
(44:23):
No, she wasn't, and that'sa very fur I have given a paper
in which I which I called aQuaker by birth and a slave owner by
choice. She very much grew upas a Quaker, although, as I
say, in the first fourteen yearsfifteen years of her life she lived on
(44:46):
a plantation in Hanover County with herparents and her grandparents, but they couldn't
manumit their slaves at that point bylaw, and so when they could,
they did, and they moved toPhiladelphia. Her father went bankrupt, and
(45:06):
it became Dolly's role to bring thefamily around and give it re established itself
in the Quaker world. And soher first husband was a prominent Quaker,
but the family as a whole.Her mother, who died in eighteen oh
seven, remained a faithful Quaker,but none of the children did. Now
(45:28):
they weren't a typical there were alot of people falling out with the Quakers
who at that time, who womenwho married outside the faith, men who
wanted to become richer or whatever.But but she so in way. She
she marinated in anti slavery, butit didn't really stick. And her her
(45:53):
sister, she's the oldest girl.She has the next sister whose name is
Lucy, and Lucy before Dolly marriesJames Madison elopes with a nephew of George
Washington. So she also marries aVirginia planter who lives near Berkeley Springs what's
now West Virginia, in a housethat still belongs to the Washington family called
(46:17):
Harewood, and that's where Dolly andJames get married. And then Dolly has
two other sisters. The next oneto marry, Mary's a Virginia politician from
what is now West Virginia and alsoa slave owner. And then the youngest
sister marries a politician from what isstill the main district of Massachusetts it becomes
(46:40):
the state of Maine. He isnot by birth a slave owner. But
when that family, the Cuts family, moved to Washington, d c.
They do indeed by slaves. Sothere is no I do not see Dolly
Madison as carrying on her parents traditionof anti slavery. No I got that
(47:07):
impression. And I know the otheroccasion for which she has remembered is saving
the portrait of George Washington Gilbert Stewartpainting. Where I believe an enslave person
played a pivotal role in that process. Is that the case I did correct.
His name was Paul Jennings, andthere is a biography of him out
(47:30):
if one of your viewers would liketo read it. His name again is
Paul Jennings, and the book iscalled A Slave in the White House,
and he was James Madison's valet,and so the principal caretaker. Now,
when you think about a la,if you're president of the United States and
(47:51):
dressing was as complicated as it wasin those times, you did have a
vala. Any British gentleman would havehad a la who kept your clothes clean
and did all of these sort offundamental gentleman with things for you. And
I think that Paul Jennings actually quiteliked and admired James Madison. But in
(48:12):
eighteen fourteen, James had Paul Jenningswas in the White House, the British
were coming, Dolly was in theWhite House, and what the fear was.
And I think this is important tounderstand. It's not simply that this
was a great painting, but thatif the British took the White House,
which they did, they might verywell take the portrait of George Washington,
(48:37):
who is the founder of the nationand the icon of America. They might
very well take the portrait of GeorgeWashington, bring it back to London and
parade it through the streets as atrophy of war to shane the United States.
(49:00):
So as an icon, this paintingwas more important than we perhaps easily
understand today. They had to dosomething about it, and Dolly knew they
had to do something about it,and mister Jennings knew they had to do
something about it. So it wasPaul Jennings and one other servant in the
(49:21):
White House who was white, whotook down the painting and kept it.
Now, what Dolly then did ishanded it to two merchants who were Northerners
who were leaving the city, whohad the capacity to take this picture and
leave. So that's what they did. They took the picture and they left
Washington, d c. In orderto save it. But yes, Paul
(49:44):
Jennings played a pivotal role, hadprobably the most physical role in getting the
painting down. It would have beena heavy painting. It would have been
screwed into the wall. You wouldn'thave just lifted it off a hook and
saved it from the British. Andhe, along with every other person in
the White House, would have knownthat the British, they should prevent the
(50:07):
British at all costs from capturing thisicon and diminishing the Americans and mock them
with it. Paul Jennings was heso James Madison said he would free him.
Dolly Madison said she would free him, and she didn't. So he
was bought by somebody and then soldit to Daniel Webster, who allowed Paul
(50:30):
Jennings to work off his freedom.And so Paul Jennings became a freeman and
actually was a leader of the abolitionistmovement in Washington, d C. And
And probably one of the black leadersof the Pearl, which was a city.
(50:51):
It was a ship that was thattried to bring a number of enslaved
Washington adults to freedom through the Chesapeake, and the wind failed them, and
so the shift the Pearl was captured, and one Dolly's enslaved maids was on
(51:13):
that ship, and she took thatslave. It was the slave's returned to
her, and she took that slavein Souldiers. Paul Jennings, I think,
did not like Dolly Madison. Andagain, if your listeners interested,
Paul Jennings himself wrote a memoir andyou can find that memoir online, and
if you read it closely, Ithink you can see there between the line
(51:37):
that this is a man who didnot like Dolly Madison, but was not
going to say so outright. Also, a third time in which Dolly is
deeply criticized is by the abolitionist pressin the eighteen forties. If her greatest
legacy is, as you say,creating a culture of America, an image
(52:01):
of America, a display of Americathat was part of allowing us to become
truly an independent nation that had itsown significance and its own It was not
a powerful nation in eighteen fifteen,but it was a nation that stood for
(52:24):
something. And how could you understandwhat it stood for? Well? Its
ideas most most importantly, and that'sThomas Jefferson as the author of the declaration
of a Declaration of Independence. ButI think for many ordinary people and for
(52:49):
many diplomats and elites as well,the images of America, the visual images
of America, were set by DollyMadison, and that was a great thing
that she did it, without adoubt, without a doubt that because that
ultimately becomes what is the emblematic ofAmerica? Even though our capital and that's
what it lat you know, PierreCharles Lafont envisioned the capital as what would
(53:15):
be the symbol of America. Itis the symbol of the people's you know,
governance. But ultimately, I guessthat image is the White House.
And she's the one that brought definitionto the White House. And she is
the one with her parties who allowedshe didn't allow poor people who wouldn't have
(53:36):
considered going to one of her parties. I mean it's you know, if
you were poor, it wouldn't haveoccurred to you to go to one of
her parties, even if you werewhite. But she but she did allow
ordinary people in. But she didit at a moment when Washington was also
a very small city, right,And I think that's part of it.
But I think that also was herher heaving up the parties, the way
(54:00):
in which she walked around and introducedherself to people or started conversations with people,
and she started conversations with everyone whowas there. She didn't limit herself
to one party or the other,or politicians and non politicians. And again,
I think that was part of astatement at the time that we are
(54:22):
a republic and we are not GreatBritain. We are not a monarchy,
we do not have an aristocracy.We consider ourselves to be the representatives of
the people as defined at that time. Montpellier is where Madison carefully crafted his
(54:50):
vision for our national government. Montpellieris also and was also a working plantation
with over three hundred enslave people workingthe land and running the Madison household.
As doctor Reeves has shown, archaeologyhas helped reveal to us the lived experiences
(55:13):
of the enslaved populations at the plantationof Montpellier and also provides insight into the
way Madison treated the people he heldin bondage. Doctor Schulmann also helped us
understand the dynamics of the Madison marriageand how it played out at Montpellier and
later at the White House. Itis important to remember that these founding fathers
(55:38):
were human beings, not isolated politicalfigures, but were involved in personal partnerships
which influence their thinking and their behavior. For certain, Dolly Madison was an
outsized personality in the life of JamesMadison. Next week, we will delve
(55:58):
into James Madison's Legs I set withJames French, the chairman of the Montpelier
Foundation Board of Directors and founding chairmanof the Mountpelier Descendants Committee. This episode
was edited by Baywulf Rockland, RooseveltHeine, and Lisa Hudy of Two Squared
(56:20):
Media Productions. Special thanks to IsabelDorville for her research and production support,
Folk Diversity for ensuring purposeful conversations whenreflecting on our complex history and basking strategies
for engaging our stakeholder community. Thanksas well to Joy Ford Austin, Jody
(56:46):
Samuda, and Amy Anthony at theInstitute of Politics, Policy and History.
We are grateful to the Kellogg Foundationfor their generous support of this found father's
Legacy series. Be sure to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts.
This is the Founding Father's Legacy series. I'm Sharon Pratt and in this episode
we will introduce our listeners to Montpellier, the family home of James Madison.
In the last episode, we learnmore about revolutionary America the newly formed United
(00:24):
States, all of which helped toprovide contexts for the decisions the Founding Fathers
made in shaping our Constitution and inspireddocument, but still one replete with accommodations
to the institution of slavery, andhow such considerations even influenced the location of
(00:46):
our nation's capital. Now it istime to focus on a place that shaped
James Madison's life. It is aplace where he spent countless hours drafting orations
of his vision for a strong nationalgovernment. It is also a place which
(01:06):
embodies the paradoxes of the American Revolution, the fight for liberty while aggressively preserving
the practice of slavery. Montpellier wasthe home James Madison always returned to,
(01:26):
although he traveled to many places hiseducation at the College of New Jersey now
known as Princeton, the Continental Congressin Philadelphia, the Virginia Assembly, and
the Constitutional Convention once again in Philadelphia, then to New York City for the
first Federal Congress, wherever Montpellier washis home base. It was at Montpellier
(01:53):
where a thirty six year old Madisonholed up in his library, a library
built by enslaved children, studied politicalphilosophy and the histories of Republican forms of
government. Six months of studying andscribbling led up to the seventeen eighty seven
(02:14):
Constitutional Convention and resulted in his document, known as the Virginia Plan, which
provided the framework for the three branchesof government, the legislative branch, the
executive branch, and the judicial branch. In seventeen ninety seven, James Madison
(02:36):
and his wife of three years,Dolly Madison, moved back to Montpellier after
living in the nation's interim capital ofPhiladelphia, where Madison had served in the
Congress. But in eighteen oh one, the Madisons moved to the brand new
nation capital, Washington, d C. So that Madison could serve as Thomas
(02:58):
Jefferson's Secretary of State. Their stayin Washington proved longer than expected. At
the end of President Jefferson's time inthe White House, Madison was the clear
choice for President. He was swornin as our fourth president in eighteen o
nine and served two full terms.The Madisons finally retired to Montpellier in eighteen
(03:28):
seventeen, where he focused on hiseconomic status his plantation profits. It was
touch and go, but Montpellier managedto eke out sufficient profits because of the
skill and work of his hundred plusenslaved African Americans. In eighteen thirty six,
(03:51):
at the age of eighty five,James Madison died at Montpellier. He
was the last of the founding fallto pass away. With doctor Matthew Reeves
expertise in the archeology of the plantation, we will examine life at Montpelier for
the Madisons and their enslaved labor.We will then delve into how James and
(04:15):
his wife, Dolly's personal and politicalpartnership evolved through the lens of doctor Holly
Cowan Schulmann. Doctor Matthew Reeves hasbeen the Director of Archaeology and Landscape Restoration
at Montpelier for over twenty years,and his interests and expertise center on the
sites of the African diaspora, especiallyplantations. Doctor Reeves works to excavate the
(04:44):
stories of those who were essential toAmerica and therefore the Madison's economic progress.
Thank you, doctor Reeves for speakingwith me. What has been your principal
focus in this capacity at Montpelier.My principal focus at Mountpelier has been too
(05:06):
and my specialty, my background ishas been for all my career archaeology of
the African diaspora, and I've developedin my field work in Jamaica looking at
early nineteenth century settlements of enslaved Jamaicans, working with descendant communities and bringing really
(05:26):
using the archaeology has its best beenput by my friend James French as a
memory device, is bringing reconciling someof that loss of memory that happened with
enslavement, you know, which isits context is all across the African Atlantic,
some of the same methods we usebrutal methods to separate the people from
(05:48):
their loved ones initially from their culture, from their society, from their ideas,
and use archaeology as as a wayto reconcile that and reconcile it not
between you know, white people andblack people, but reconcile it between black
people today and their ancestors. Andarchaeology is one of those links for that
(06:09):
and one of the things that reallyreally brought this together has been my work
in Montpelier for the past twenty years. In terms of I've always had an
interest in the African yes for aarchaeology. When you look at a place
like Montpelier where at one time they'reover one hundred enslaved individuals, when you
start to do survey across the landscapeand find sites and find artifacts, almost
(06:32):
every single artifact you find was eitherproduced, used, or last touch by
a member of the enslaved community.And so what you begin to build is
a presence of that community on thelandscape as you find sites. And that
makes the coincidence of that with descendantsso incredibly important. And it's what's exciting
(07:00):
about Montpelier is it's a place thatyou know, it's a place of national
importance, you know, and itsown right because of the scale of what
happened here and the community who ishere. But it becomes a place of
national importance because of the person thatowned it in the late eighteenth and early
nineteenth century, President James Madison.It happens to be the place where Madison
(07:24):
literally wrote the Virginia Plan that becamethe basis for the Constitution. And this
is something that is not just recognizedby historians of the Constitution and you know,
biographers of Madison, it's recognized bythe descendant community as is why Montpellier
is an important place for them andtheir families. And you know, for
(07:46):
years there were there was um nota lot of indication that there was a
place for descendants, much less blackpeople at Montpellier. Sharon, what you're
just saying about DC and being interestedin the founding of DC. When you
were saying that, ben mind wasworrying because I was thinking when medicine and
Jefferson, of course we're involved asWashington too. Of course we're involved in
(08:11):
the layout of Washington, DC.And much in the same way that on
their plantations they were using enslaved labor, enslave individuals as labor, that too
was happening in DC. And whatwe have, you know, just unqualifiable
evidence for when you look at beginto look at some of the archaeological sites
(08:31):
and landscapes at Montpellier is the influenceof enslaved Americans, enslaved Black Americans,
as you know, not just laborers, but engineers, as hydrologists, as
h soil scientists, and how allthis contributes to everything from how you move
soil to how you you know whatwhat soil you choose to to to to
(08:56):
make bricks and how well you firethem and how we have so many cases
we've seen direct evidence that it isthe black farmers, the engineers, the
soil scientists who were enslaved at Montpellierthat allowed that to happen, not just
from their hands, but from theirminds. And so you can't divorce this
(09:20):
from the founding of DC, fromthe layout of the capitol. What who
would have known the soils, whatwould have been like you know, why
the mall was probably the last placeto be developed because it was a marsh,
and how to develop that you knowlater? You know, all this
is tied with a landscape, aknowledge of the landscape. And so how
(09:43):
many enslaved people were there at Montpelierat any one time between the seventeen eighties
through the eighteen thirties, there isabout one hundred to one hundred and twenty,
So altogether we're estimating there would havebeen between three and four one hundred
individuals enslaved who lived at Montpellier,No, many of whom were buried on
(10:05):
the lands at the burial ground atMontpellier. What was the living circumstance for
the enslaved there? It was umone that was probably pretty standard, very
standard for other enslaved families, otherwhite families of the time period. Uh,
most most individuals enslaved Americans that Montpellierwere living in log structures that where
(10:31):
you'd have anywhere between you know,six to eight household members in a probably
at twelve by fourteen foot space andyou know, it sounds rather, you
know, very minimalistic, but atthe time, when you're trying to keep
warm in the winter, being ina small space has its advantages. Um.
(10:54):
And what the generational ties that theslaved Americans at Montpellier had, the
community members had at Montpellier allowed themto do was to you know, produce
their own household items through gardens.That they tended to have economic relationships with
merchants in the area to purchase items. And that we've we've found evidence in
(11:16):
the archaeological record that they are thatthe enslaved, enslaved households are accumulating some
degree of material wealth and all thisreally speaks to you know, when you
think about an enslaved family enslaved individualowning items that they're they're working to attain
(11:39):
and in making decisions about what tobude to represent who they are. It
shows a real issues and an identitythat is bound to this country, to
America, to the region issues,an identity that really UM speaks to UM,
(12:00):
you know, having an investment inthe society for the time period.
And when you look at what happensafter emancipation, and this is some twenty
years after people were sold from mypillar and sold more than likely to the
Deep South and the Cotton Kingdom,you know, through Richmond, down through
New Orleans or down through the Valley. UM it people return, people return
(12:26):
to this area because of those connections. And so what you see is,
you know, it's a it's anidentity of being American that uh, you
know, those individual individuals who arekept from having a certain item, whether
it's food, freedom, ability toUM have control of their their you know,
(12:52):
what happens to their loved ones.It it makes them think about this
more than people that have this asa as a and as you know,
just an assumption or a as agiven UM. And it when you start
thinking about who the you know,the enslaved people were at mont Pillar and
(13:13):
all these plantations and in Washington,DC. And what how strong an idea
of liberty and individual rights this countryhas. You can't help but wonder what
those enslaved individuals contributed to those ideasand what, you know, what influenced
these Founding fathers in what they werewriting about. You know, you know,
(13:37):
because Washington, Jefferson, Madison allwere interacting on a you know,
on a on a daily basis,whether they were at their plantation homes or
in DC with black Americans who areenslaved. And that was a constant that
that that that um, that negotiationbetween uh them as free white men and
(14:05):
these enslaved individuals was a constant reminderof what is liberty and what is not
And that had to have honed thisconcept that we, you know, as
Americans hold dear and put at thefeet of Madison, Jefferson, Washington and
other Founding fathers too. You know, it's a it's a it's a much
(14:28):
more complex history, and it's amuch more you know, rich history that
we can never begin to even thinkabout. When you think about the ideas
and contributions of all of the peopleat these at this time period, and
uh, you know it. Andit's not too hard to draw this connection
(14:48):
between these individuals like Madison, Jefferson, and Washington when you look at how
present black Americans were in their lifeand how they had literally tied their everyday
actions and really in so many waysdepended on enslaved Americans from everything from their
(15:09):
personal activities down to their wealth.I know, Hassan Jeffrey speaks of how
these children, enslaved children built Madison'slibrary and when you're down there, they
have a home, you know,where they were lodged. Was that a
commonplace among plantation owners to have childrenworking like this? I mean, I
(15:35):
know children work, but I meanthat's pretty extraordinary. I think you mean
in the cellar. Yes, yeah, you know, what we've found with
the archaeology is that people enslaved Americanscommunity members that Montpellier lived where they work
and when they were working for theMadisons and the house, they were made
(15:58):
to be ever present and immediately available. And so yeah, there we've found
evidence for enslaved living in the inthe sellers, in the kitchens, even
found it in the in a ina in a tobacco barn and over at
the main farm complex. It wasused for smoke curing tobacco. And there's
(16:18):
no doubt that, you know,one thing that Madison and and and his
economic hilt did was look for economicefficiency with labor and where children and old
people could be taken advantage of themirror fact that bricks were being made by
children. And you find children's fingerprintsin bricks. Uh. You know when
(16:41):
you look at um at period offarm books and they're talking about weeding gangs,
those are children. Uh. Youknow, it's all uh terribly and
horribly economically efficient, you know,in terms of love labor. And they
enslave built all of the you knowbuildings that you know, all of the
(17:02):
facilities at Mountpellier. I mean it'sbecause Madison. I mean, I guess
it's not as imposing as one couldargue some homes, but it's a pretty
significant home. Uh and you know, um a lovely dining room, etc.
So that was done all by enslavedpeople. Correct. Absolutely. And
(17:23):
one one thing we've found is thatyou know, um, when historians and
other architects, historic architects talk aboutyou know, enslaved building structures, they
often talk about how there'll be awhite master craftsman like a mason or a
(17:44):
carpenter that will come in and trainenslaved Americans to do the work. So,
you know, so that will bemade, you know, so there'll
be many hands doing the work.And one thing that I found fascinating is
that um when Madison, when Dollyand James Madison and arranged out of the
wings added to the house in eighteeno nine. The mason that they use
as this man named Hugh Chisholm,who by that time is at the peak
(18:08):
of his alcoholic career and at thebottom of his masonry career. And the
wings that he builds on the houseare so poorly constructed that when the um
when when the house is purchased bythe next owner in the eighteen forties,
they have to stucco the house tokeep it from falling apart. And that
(18:29):
stucco when we removed it, thatwas one of the most costly aspects of
the restoration. But much late laterin the in the in this reconstruction period
in the eighteen teens, this iswhen the ice house is built in the
columns for the for the templar builtand those are that structure is so well
(18:51):
built that without any stabilization whatsoever.It withstands that earthquake we had, remember
in twenty and eleven, I hadno damn it at all. And the
structural engineers said that if the wingshad gone through the earthquake with without the
restoration, they would have collapsed.So you think about, you know,
hugeism, isn't getting to be abetter mason in the eighteen to elevens.
(19:17):
It's it's the enslaved who are doingthe work, and they're the ones that
are probably the ones who are designingthe elements of masonry, making the bricks
in a way that is successful forthe ice house and the temple, and
so it's, you know, it'sit's these these these gaps that that no
one talks about, where when youlook at the material record and there's nothing
(19:42):
mentioned in the historical record that youknow, the folks that are filling that
that gap and allowing things to bea success are the enslaved. And purposefully,
you know, Madison and others whenthey write about know the enslaved individuals
they own, they either talk aboutthem in a as you know, we
(20:07):
are doing this work, or evenI am doing this work. Medicinal write
about this, and he was writingto a gentleman named mister Minor who talks
about this. Or they'll talk aboutmy hands, not his hands, but
you know, right so hands asthey're divorced from a mind, it speaks
to you know, when someone hasa pathology, oftentimes they'll express their they'll
(20:33):
avoid some of their greatest fears orcritique someone for the greatest fears about who
they are. And I think foryou know, for these slave owners,
one of their greatest fears was losingcontrol of the people they enslaved, not
being able to access what enslaved hadthe most control over. And what the
(20:56):
most control over wasn't their labor.They could be threatened to work, but
what was in their minds you can'tget somewhere. I mean, that's where
you know, some of the mostinsane forms of torture are designed in many
cases to extract things from people's minds. If you own those people, you're
you know, it's in these aren'tThese things aren't talked about. They're not
(21:19):
talked about, and it's it's it'sthose gaps that really begin to fill in
this history. And you know,it does seem like some with some of
the achievements of Madison, Jefferson,and Washington, that they are God's and
it's only because they have, youknow, this cadre of intellectual and labor
support that is made invisible that theyseem this way. And in some ways,
(21:45):
what I'd like to tell visitors thatthe inventor is you know, if
you really want to understand Madison forhis achievements, understand him as a human
being, not as a god.I mean, God can do anything that
God could, you know, asweak and see if the gods can build
a house with blinking their eyes,who knows, you know, all sorts
of things you can do. Butif he Madison is a human, what
(22:08):
he achieved is even more remarkable.And as a flawed human who enslave people,
and you begin to start to piecetogether that, yeah, Madison was
this great intellectual, you know,just amazing intellectual. But he's also you
know who who's working beside him?Are all these people that are unrecognized today?
(22:33):
Madison does fall on tough times thatthe plantation is economically troubled. Why
did that happen? Is it becausehe was gone so much they didn't rotate
the crops enough. What happened.One of the several ideas that I have
about this that need to be testedthrough looking at some of the books that
(22:56):
the account books at the time period, if they're unavailable, is one of
the things that he did that reallyimperiled the economy of Montpellier in the eighteen
teens is when his father died ineighteen o one. His father had diversified
the economy of the plantation by havinga massive blacksmith's shop, by being a
(23:17):
merchant for the region. And whatMadison wanted to do, along with ideas
that he had exchanged with Jefferson,is to become more of a scientific farmer.
And so he he closed his theblacksmith's shop that run all through the
eighteenth century, reduced it in size, and moved it. Moved it to
(23:37):
another site just below where the visitorcenter is. We excavated that about a
year ago. UM and then alsoput a heavy emphasis on scientific farming,
you know, contour applowing looking toum to ensure that you know, erosion
didn't happen, maneuvering of fields,and tried to starting as an innerds of
(24:02):
retirement in the eighteen teams. Hewrites in the eighteen thirties that he didn't
have a one successful season where hewas able to clear a profit, and
so in terms of his business acumen, you know, he would have been
much better off, um, youknow, marketing items to the local community,
(24:22):
to the region as opposed to tryingto do an export based economy like
like he did with grains being soldin tobacco being sold to England. Um.
But then one thing that he diddo that's they're not often mentioned is
there's hints in his letters where hewrites about setting up setting up cabins for
(24:49):
the enslaved to live in where theywill have the will they will have families,
and you think about you know,what do you get when you have
a family? More property? Yeah, more property. You know, I
don't want to say it's chilling,because to say it's chilling is to say
(25:10):
that it's it's um, it shouldn'tbe expected. He uses some he's very
pragmatic about ensuring that his enslaved individualsare reproducing. And this is not any
different than any other planter of thetime too, for you know, enslaved
(25:32):
enslaver of the time period, andby the time you get to the eighteen
twenties and thirties. You know,there are there's a thriving practice and the
intercontinental trade of individuals, enslaved individuals. So that's where he really is able
to ensure the economic future of borrowagainst the enslaved bodies and borrow against you
(25:56):
know, the bodies that we're servingmeals and house. To guess, it's
literally that that capital is there tobe seen. And so he probably I
imagined that in his later years he'sprobably given up on doing any kind of
the farming economy, like he attemptsto do some farming and selling of tobacco,
(26:17):
which I think it's one of theareas he's still able to make a
profit on. And I can sharedI can send you some of the some
of the survey reports we've done inwhat we call the Eastwoods of Montpelire where
we found these tobacco fields and foundevidence through light our studies of the drainage
canals that the enslaved created to drainthese low areas where all the soil it
(26:40):
had roded down and created these richbeds of top soul for growing tobacco.
The landscaping and the engineering that arethere that some of the few areas where
Madison was able to produce a profitcomes from the intellectual success and achievements of
the enslaved, and so, youknow, and I would imagine those would
(27:03):
have been individuals. When he solda group of um of fifteen enslaved in
the eighteen thirties, probably he waschoosing who to sell based on, you
know, who would have the leastintellectual impact on the plantation. Finally,
as an epilogue to it all,is do you walk away with a positive
(27:27):
opinion of James Madison? I wouldsay, you know, from my feelings
about mister Madison, I feel likewhat I really admire about him is his
his his his his pensiont for theScottish enlightenment of critical thought. That's what
(27:49):
he used to build the constitution thatforms the basis of American government today.
And I'd like to think that ifhe was able to come back and see
what we're doing at Montpellier with theDescendant Committee, with co stewardship of not
(28:10):
just his family, of his land, but the enslaved family's land as well,
he would see this as a youknow, he would probably have to
put aside his you know, theracism, the healed, He healed as
a as a as a person umand this he's dead now, so maybe
he'd be able to do this,But I think he would take it as
(28:30):
an opportunity to really be excited abouthow we can use you know, this
combined history, you know, notjust one person's story, but all of
these people's story to understand not justwhat happened in the eighteen seventeen nineties or
the eighteen twenties, but what's happeningtoday. What you know? Who who
(28:53):
can true? Who were? Whoare the founders of this country? Were
they? Were they that you know, these great white men, we were
you know, as the NBC talksabout visit these invisible founders, you know
so many. It was this effortthat you this sum is so much greater
than the whole. And I thinkhe would be. I think he had
enough curiosity where I think he wouldbe. He would be excited about what
(29:18):
we're doing today, and um hehe. I don't think he ever wanted
to be put on a pedestal likeuh, I know mister Jefferson wanted.
You know, when Madison dies,he's buried in an unmarked grave at his
own choice, and it's only twentyyears later that the next owner builds that
massive obelisk in the Madison family cemeteryand literally, you know, they have
(29:44):
to Madison is rolling in his gravebecause they have to dig his his his
coffin up and open it up toidentify that make sure it was him,
and then they built the obelisk.So you know, there's a testimony in
the landscape about Madison's contributions to theConstitution, to what he did at Montpeliar
that really lend themselves to you know, taking a Madisonian approach to how we
(30:08):
intellectually, how we approach the pastand bring all these factors in and think
about not just these are givens thathappened in the United States, but use
critical thought to unpack all this information. And I think I think, you
know, for whatever feeling that leadsme, I would be excited to talk
with Madison about what we're mister Madison, about what we're doing and see what
(30:30):
his thoughts were and are and souh yeah, as a as a person
and what is actions resulted in likehe and others, there's a lot to
be desired. Um. Yeah,but but but there was there was so
much more to him there was,you know, enough for you to have
a very hopeful notions of him,and that he would be intellectually agile enough
(30:56):
to appreciate the initiatives that are areoccurring today. Yeah, I think he
would see that as um as constitutionaldemocracy succeeded, you know that that that
the ability to extend this fear toinclude more people, more ideas successfully into
(31:17):
a country that we have today,that would be a great source of pride
for him. And um I youknow, he didn't have it all figured
out for how to you know,make this work. He knew the institution
of slavery was potentially going to bethe downfall of everything that he and other
founders had conceived. But um Ithink you'd be excited about, you know,
(31:38):
the possibilities we've got today. Next, we will speak with doctor Holly
Cowan Schulman, who was editor ofthe Dolly Madison Digital Edition at the University
of Virginia, the first ever completeedition of Dolly Madison's own correspondence. Her
(32:01):
diligent scholarship provides new insights into theMadisons as partners and their experiences at Mountpelier.
What we want to do today isunderstand Dolly Madison. And let's begin
at the beginning on Lisa. Interms of this relationship with James Madison.
(32:23):
Dolly Madison was reared in Philadelphia,is that correct? Dolly Madison. Actually,
she was born in North Carolina andspent her childhood in Hanover County,
Virginia. And her parents were bothQuaker, anti slavery and also slave owners.
(32:45):
And in seventeen eighty three, whenit became legal in Virginia to emancipate
their slaves, they did that andthey moved to Philadelphia, as I say,
in seventeen eighty three, Dolly Madisonthere for her her natal family.
Her parents were devout, if youcan use that word, Quakers, and
(33:07):
her first husband was a Quaker whowas an important attorney for the Pennsylvania Abolition
Society, and he died in seventeenninety three within a yellow epidemic. She
married James Madison less than a yearlater. Her father died in seventeen ninety
(33:28):
two. She has two older brothers, both of whom have more or less
disappeared by seventeen ninety four, andshe leaves the city during the epidemic and
survives, although her baby doesn't.He's about six or eight weeks old.
But she returns to Philadelphia, andat that time she meets James Madison,
(33:55):
who, according to one of ourearliest horses, a niece of Dolly Madison's,
I saw Dolly walking down the streetand decided that she was the woman
for him. And so it wasJames Madison who was the one in hot
pursuit because he seems sort of reclusive. That's surprising. He's shy. He
(34:19):
had been engaged once and his fiancehad broken off the relationship. But he
mounted a campaign, and he mounteda campaign and for which we don't have
a lot of evidence, but wehave a wonderful letter from the wife of
another cousin, also named Cole's Dolly'sDolly's mother's maiden name was Coles, saying
(34:46):
that essentially that that James Madison,he cannot stop thinking about you. You
enter his dreams and he's told methat I can tell you this. Wow.
Well that's interesting. And so itseemed to have been quite the perfect
match. I mean, she wasthe extrovert, which he desperately needed.
(35:08):
He was the great intellect. Soseemingly was a great match. Is that
a fair characterization? I suspect itwas a very good marriage. I think
when she married him she was lookingfor several things. She was clearly the
most important thing decision a woman couldmake, The most important career decision a
(35:30):
woman could make in that era,was who she married. Your marriage was
your most important decision as an adultwoman. And her first husband had been
a successful lawyer. He probably wouldhave become a very successful lawyer. But
now she needed a second husband,and she was falling out with the Quakers.
(35:52):
And I think she had loved livingin Virginia as a child, so
I think marrying a Virginian was somethingthat was attractive to her. And James
Madison was, of course financially,socially, politically successful, and so she
married him. I don't know howmuch she was in love with him when
(36:16):
she married, but there's no evidenceexcept that they were a happy couple who
were well suited for each other.Yes, So after they marry and they
moved to his home Montpellier, isthat correct? Well, he doesn't retire
from politics until seventeen ninety seven.From there, there are a couple of
years in their marriage when they're backand forth. Then in seventeen ninety seven,
(36:39):
he retires from politics. They livedpermanently at Montpelier. In eighteen o
one, as you know, ThomasJefferson was elected president and asked James Madison
to be his Secretary of State.And may I just say, at that
point the secretary of State was notonly external affairs but internal affairs. He
was the home Secretary and foreign secretary. James Madison stays at Montpelier for another
(37:04):
couple of months to put his housein order because his father had died and
he needed to get everything, youknow, all the legal work done and
so on and so forth. Andthen in May the Madisons moved to Washington,
d C. Where they are whichis their primary residence until after his
(37:25):
presidency in eighteen seventeen. They leavein eight eighteen seventy. Washington, d
C. Was quite a small city, and the District of Columbia, as
you know, was larger than WashingtonCity, and they lived in the center
of Washington City and were active.There were congressmen and senators who lived in
(37:47):
Georgetown, and there were a fewwho lived near the capital, but the
center of activity and where most Democratslived was where the Madizins lived, near
the White House. I've often wondered, and I'm gonna ask you, why
would these Chickenlali menus Landed Gentry,you know, Madison, Jefferson, Washington,
(38:13):
why would they want to take onthe most formidable navy in the world.
I mean, they've got you've gotto be really exercised to do something
as audacious as that. Well,there's been a lot of inks built over
that question, as you know,And the question in Virginia was a question
of indebtedness to London merchants and wouldthey be better off if they could get
(38:38):
rid of their debt. Madison Ithink truly believed in a unique future and
a unique republican future for America.Today. We ask a series of different
questions about what that democracy or republicshould mean. So it would never have
(39:00):
heard, for example, to JamesMadison to think women should have the vote.
But then he didn't think even thatall white men should have the vote,
and it certainly didn't occur to himthat African American men should have the
vote. So his notion about whata republic was in let's say seventeen ninety
or eighteen hundred was limited in away that's I think, at some level
(39:24):
really not understandable today that it seemsso retrograde, if you will, so
narrow in vision. But if welook at ourselves at him at his own
time, he was a progressive manwho believed that people, white men,
people should have a voice in theirgovernment, and that that government should be
(39:50):
responsive to the people as defined nowfor a man. For a woman,
for example, it was assumed thather voice was exercised by her husband,
and for an enslaved man, theassumption was that he needn't have a voice.
But you know, as I say, these things are very contentious and
(40:14):
uncomfortable today. But it doesn't meanI don't believe. It doesn't mean that
he was either an illiberal or abad man. It means that he was
a man of his times. Yes. So what about the influence of Dolly
in this sphere? I mean,did she have any education? No,
not really, not the way hedid she. In fact, if you
(40:37):
follow her correspondence from when she methim to win he dies, I think
her writing gets better as she helpsedit his papers and do his correspondence,
help with his correspondence and so on. And to the extent that she read.
She liked poetry and novels, whichwas typical for women of that period.
(40:59):
She was not engaged in political philosophy, but she was certainly literate.
She certainly read, She certainly wouldwould have read the newspaper. But she
would also have been concerned with fashionand her network of friends, and she
loved to gossip. And she wasa very in that sense, traditionally womanly
(41:22):
woman. She was not interested inpolitics. The way, for example Abigail
Adams was that decided didn't have animportant role when Abigail Adams came to Washington,
DC, which they did for thelast four months of adams administration.
Abigail Adams had no idea what todo with the White House, which in
(41:43):
any case was unfinished. And AbigailAdams, as a first Lady's behalf of
her half of his term looking aftertheir farm in Massachusetts. So well educated
as she was, and as fulsomeas their core respondence was, that did
not really mean that Abigail Adams wassuited to be the first Lady of the
(42:06):
nation. Dolly is a far moreengaging and and humanly interested and if you
will, to use the word again, flamboyant person. She likes people,
She's concerned about people, and soshe sets about having an evening, and
(42:29):
she knows her husband is shy,so they're not going to follow the federalist
path. They can't follow the bachelor'spath. So what she does is she
established these Wednesday evening parties which soonbecome very popular and are known as squeezes.
He comes together her parties. Wow. So I mean she sort of
(42:50):
is the template? Is she notfor the first Lady? I mean she's
the one who establishes that template.I have argued that the first lady ship,
the traditional first ladyship as we knowit, was started by Dolly Madison,
and then that mold was broken byEleanor Roosevelt, and that's quite a
(43:12):
long period of time. Eleanor Rooseveltis an examplar of what we call first
wave feminism. She doesn't she doesn'tbelieve that women have no role, although
she doesn't force it in the waythe second wave feminists will. But it's
Eleanor Roosevelt, for example, whobelieves that women reporters, women journals are
(43:35):
important. So she holds press conferences, but she holds women's press conferences,
and she writes your own newspaper callon the she becomes involved in all kinds
of things and transgresses, of course, boundaries of race. With her friendship
with Mary McLoud Befoon Dolly Madison,I think is the beginning of what we
know of as the distaff side ofthe presidency. The first Lady tell me
(44:00):
about Dolly Madison's philosophies. I knowshe is reared by Quakers. But is
she, for example, as weddedto the notion of abolition as ultimately her
father must have been if he imman, if he freed his enslaved people.
(44:23):
No, she wasn't, and that'sa very fur I have given a paper
in which I which I called aQuaker by birth and a slave owner by
choice. She very much grew upas a Quaker, although, as I
say, in the first fourteen yearsfifteen years of her life she lived on
(44:46):
a plantation in Hanover County with herparents and her grandparents, but they couldn't
manumit their slaves at that point bylaw, and so when they could,
they did, and they moved toPhiladelphia. Her father went bankrupt, and
(45:06):
it became Dolly's role to bring thefamily around and give it re established itself
in the Quaker world. And soher first husband was a prominent Quaker,
but the family as a whole.Her mother, who died in eighteen oh
seven, remained a faithful Quaker,but none of the children did. Now
(45:28):
they weren't a typical there were alot of people falling out with the Quakers
who at that time, who womenwho married outside the faith, men who
wanted to become richer or whatever.But but she so in way. She
she marinated in anti slavery, butit didn't really stick. And her her
(45:53):
sister, she's the oldest girl.She has the next sister whose name is
Lucy, and Lucy before Dolly marriesJames Madison elopes with a nephew of George
Washington. So she also marries aVirginia planter who lives near Berkeley Springs what's
now West Virginia, in a housethat still belongs to the Washington family called
(46:17):
Harewood, and that's where Dolly andJames get married. And then Dolly has
two other sisters. The next oneto marry, Mary's a Virginia politician from
what is now West Virginia and alsoa slave owner. And then the youngest
sister marries a politician from what isstill the main district of Massachusetts it becomes
(46:40):
the state of Maine. He isnot by birth a slave owner. But
when that family, the Cuts family, moved to Washington, d c.
They do indeed by slaves. Sothere is no I do not see Dolly
Madison as carrying on her parents traditionof anti slavery. No I got that
(47:07):
impression. And I know the otheroccasion for which she has remembered is saving
the portrait of George Washington Gilbert Stewartpainting. Where I believe an enslave person
played a pivotal role in that process. Is that the case I did correct.
His name was Paul Jennings, andthere is a biography of him out
(47:30):
if one of your viewers would liketo read it. His name again is
Paul Jennings, and the book iscalled A Slave in the White House,
and he was James Madison's valet,and so the principal caretaker. Now,
when you think about a la,if you're president of the United States and
(47:51):
dressing was as complicated as it wasin those times, you did have a
vala. Any British gentleman would havehad a la who kept your clothes clean
and did all of these sort offundamental gentleman with things for you. And
I think that Paul Jennings actually quiteliked and admired James Madison. But in
(48:12):
eighteen fourteen, James had Paul Jenningswas in the White House, the British
were coming, Dolly was in theWhite House, and what the fear was.
And I think this is important tounderstand. It's not simply that this
was a great painting, but thatif the British took the White House,
which they did, they might verywell take the portrait of George Washington,
(48:37):
who is the founder of the nationand the icon of America. They might
very well take the portrait of GeorgeWashington, bring it back to London and
parade it through the streets as atrophy of war to shane the United States.
(49:00):
So as an icon, this paintingwas more important than we perhaps easily
understand today. They had to dosomething about it, and Dolly knew they
had to do something about it,and mister Jennings knew they had to do
something about it. So it wasPaul Jennings and one other servant in the
(49:21):
White House who was white, whotook down the painting and kept it.
Now, what Dolly then did ishanded it to two merchants who were Northerners
who were leaving the city, whohad the capacity to take this picture and
leave. So that's what they did. They took the picture and they left
Washington, d c. In orderto save it. But yes, Paul
(49:44):
Jennings played a pivotal role, hadprobably the most physical role in getting the
painting down. It would have beena heavy painting. It would have been
screwed into the wall. You wouldn'thave just lifted it off a hook and
saved it from the British. Andhe, along with every other person in
the White House, would have knownthat the British, they should prevent the
(50:07):
British at all costs from capturing thisicon and diminishing the Americans and mock them
with it. Paul Jennings was heso James Madison said he would free him.
Dolly Madison said she would free him, and she didn't. So he
was bought by somebody and then soldit to Daniel Webster, who allowed Paul
(50:30):
Jennings to work off his freedom.And so Paul Jennings became a freeman and
actually was a leader of the abolitionistmovement in Washington, d C. And
And probably one of the black leadersof the Pearl, which was a city.
(50:51):
It was a ship that was thattried to bring a number of enslaved
Washington adults to freedom through the Chesapeake, and the wind failed them, and
so the shift the Pearl was captured, and one Dolly's enslaved maids was on
(51:13):
that ship, and she took thatslave. It was the slave's returned to
her, and she took that slavein Souldiers. Paul Jennings, I think,
did not like Dolly Madison. Andagain, if your listeners interested,
Paul Jennings himself wrote a memoir andyou can find that memoir online, and
if you read it closely, Ithink you can see there between the line
(51:37):
that this is a man who didnot like Dolly Madison, but was not
going to say so outright. Also, a third time in which Dolly is
deeply criticized is by the abolitionist pressin the eighteen forties. If her greatest
legacy is, as you say,creating a culture of America, an image
(52:01):
of America, a display of Americathat was part of allowing us to become
truly an independent nation that had itsown significance and its own It was not
a powerful nation in eighteen fifteen,but it was a nation that stood for
(52:24):
something. And how could you understandwhat it stood for? Well? Its
ideas most most importantly, and that'sThomas Jefferson as the author of the declaration
of a Declaration of Independence. ButI think for many ordinary people and for
(52:49):
many diplomats and elites as well,the images of America, the visual images
of America, were set by DollyMadison, and that was a great thing
that she did it, without adoubt, without a doubt that because that
ultimately becomes what is the emblematic ofAmerica? Even though our capital and that's
what it lat you know, PierreCharles Lafont envisioned the capital as what would
(53:15):
be the symbol of America. Itis the symbol of the people's you know,
governance. But ultimately, I guessthat image is the White House.
And she's the one that brought definitionto the White House. And she is
the one with her parties who allowedshe didn't allow poor people who wouldn't have
(53:36):
considered going to one of her parties. I mean it's you know, if
you were poor, it wouldn't haveoccurred to you to go to one of
her parties, even if you werewhite. But she but she did allow
ordinary people in. But she didit at a moment when Washington was also
a very small city, right,And I think that's part of it.
But I think that also was herher heaving up the parties, the way
(54:00):
in which she walked around and introducedherself to people or started conversations with people,
and she started conversations with everyone whowas there. She didn't limit herself
to one party or the other,or politicians and non politicians. And again,
I think that was part of astatement at the time that we are
(54:22):
a republic and we are not GreatBritain. We are not a monarchy,
we do not have an aristocracy.We consider ourselves to be the representatives of
the people as defined at that time. Montpellier is where Madison carefully crafted his
(54:50):
vision for our national government. Montpellieris also and was also a working plantation
with over three hundred enslave people workingthe land and running the Madison household.
As doctor Reeves has shown, archaeologyhas helped reveal to us the lived experiences
(55:13):
of the enslaved populations at the plantationof Montpellier and also provides insight into the
way Madison treated the people he heldin bondage. Doctor Schulmann also helped us
understand the dynamics of the Madison marriageand how it played out at Montpellier and
later at the White House. Itis important to remember that these founding fathers
(55:38):
were human beings, not isolated politicalfigures, but were involved in personal partnerships
which influence their thinking and their behavior. For certain, Dolly Madison was an
outsized personality in the life of JamesMadison. Next week, we will delve
(55:58):
into James Madison's Legs I set withJames French, the chairman of the Montpelier
Foundation Board of Directors and founding chairmanof the Mountpelier Descendants Committee. This episode
was edited by Baywulf Rockland, RooseveltHeine, and Lisa Hudy of Two Squared
(56:20):
Media Productions. Special thanks to IsabelDorville for her research and production support,
Folk Diversity for ensuring purposeful conversations whenreflecting on our complex history and basking strategies
for engaging our stakeholder community. Thanksas well to Joy Ford Austin, Jody
(56:46):
Samuda, and Amy Anthony at theInstitute of Politics, Policy and History.
We are grateful to the Kellogg Foundationfor their generous support of this found father's
Legacy series. Be sure to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!