October 19, 2023 • 44 mins
In episode eight of the Founding Fathers' Legacy Series, Former Washington DC Mayor Sharon Pratt dives into the life of America's first president, George Washington. She speaks with professor and Pulitzer Prize and National Book Award winning historian, Joseph J. Ellis. Professor Ellis discusses George Washington's public persona, his view on the presidency and his role in bringing the capital to Washington D.C. He also discusses Washington's involvement in slavery and how he was perceived by others, including the other Founding Fathers.
Check out Joseph Ellis' book here: https://www.amazon.com/His-Excellency-Washington-Joseph-Ellis/dp/1400032539
Check out Joseph Ellis' book here: https://www.amazon.com/His-Excellency-Washington-Joseph-Ellis/dp/1400032539
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Hi. I am Sharon Pratt.I'm the founding director of IPPH, the
Institute of Politics, Policy and Historyhoused on the campus of the University of
the District of Columbia, with theparticular mission of rediscovering the history of Washington,
DC. And to that end,we're hosting a series called The Founding
(00:25):
Fathers Legacy Series, where we talkabout and examined the three founding fathers pivotal
to establishing the capital in the Southalong the banks of the Potomac. They
were James Madison, Thomas Jefferson,and then the one about whom we speak
today, George Washington, our firstPresident. And we have the perfect historian
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to help us understand George Washington.He's an extraordinary historian. He has written
many books, particularly focused on onthe Founding Fathers. He won the National
Book Award for his work on ThomasJefferson, the American Sphinx, the Character
of Thomas Jefferson, and the PulitzerPrize for History for his work Founding Brothers
(01:15):
the Revolutionary Generation. But today wespeak to him about George Washington and his
work. His Excellency, George Washington, I can tell from his works as
well as many comments. I observethat he's a huge fan of this founding.
Father, what a wonderful treat forus to have you with us today,
(01:38):
Joseph Ellis, First, I'd liketo ask, how is it that
you became so consumed with this generalfocus of the founding of this country,
the personalities who were pivotal to thefounding? You had what eleven books focused
(02:02):
on something like that? I thinkit might be thirteen, but I've lost
count. And give you a briefanswer, that is, I spent some
time. I got a PhD atYale and ended up teaching at West Point
for three years as my military service. When I started to teach at Mount
Holyoke, I realized that the profession, the historical profession, was pursuing a
(02:25):
different path. If you want togo on in American history, you really
have to do either women, NativeAmericans or African Americans. And I thought
that was interesting, but that atthe same time, these exhaustive publication projects
for the papers of the Founders werecoming out and no one was reading them,
(02:51):
and they have created what is thefullest account of a political elite in
recorded history. I mean the papersof Washington, Adam Jefferson, Madison,
Hamilton, and I've read them alland I thought that was a story that
needed to be told, and finalpoint that I needed to rescue them from
(03:14):
mythology. That new nations often requiremythological heroes. Think of Rombulus and Ramus,
or el sid or King Arthur.But these are all fictional characters.
The founders were real people. Theywere all imperfect human beings, Washington included.
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But they need to be recovered asprobably the greatest generation of political leaders
in American history. But all ofthem are also flawed, Washington included,
and need to be recovered as humanbeings that have something to teach us.
In fact, if they're perfect,wouldn't have his nath when we learned from
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them. So that's a somewhat longanswer to a short question. So you
felt that this critical part of ourhistory and unique history was not being adequately
chronicled, and that was sort ofthe impetus to getting involved and out of
that experience. Not surprisingly, youput a particular focus on, you know,
(04:23):
the premier personalities, obviously George Washington, but to include Madison, Jefferson,
Adams, Hamilton, and so forth. And if you ask them,
I mean, were there as sevenof you, if you ask them,
they would say Franklin's the wisest,Jefferson's the most intellectually sophisticated, Adams is
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the best read, Madison's the mostskillful inside player. But Washington's the greatest,
no question about it. A singularfigure here, and even when he
died, Franklin left his walking stickto Washington and said he can use it
(05:10):
in his walk towards immortality. Thatsaid, we need to recover him as
a as a human being, asa leader, but as a man who
is not going to make you happyon every issue that you want to raise
him, especially on the issue ofslavery. Yeah, I think that that
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obviously played a big role in bringingthe capital to the banks of the Potomac
in that fight about it. Butbefore we delve into that, let's let's
dealve more into George Washington the mainHe obviously was a gifted leader. And
the reason I suggest that is thathere he is with all of these men
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who his advisors much better educated thanhe. I mean, Harvard, you
know, a Columbia and so forthright, and yet even in their deep
fights, even in their differences,they seemed to uniformly defer to him what
Washington. Washington gathered around himself peoplewho were very well educated, for precisely
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the reason that he knew that hewasn't. I used to say that Adams
went to Harvard, Jefferson went towilliam and Mary Washington went to war.
War was his college and educational experience, the French Indian War. But he
was profoundly aware of his own inadequacy, and he called, he used to
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he said, I want pen menaround me, people who can write,
people and Hamilton wrote. Hamilton wrotethe Farewell Address, for example, And
he was aware of those deficiencies,and he wanted to compensate for gathering around
him some really distinguished people, andthey were part of his unofficial family.
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And there was a kind of zonearound Washington. You didn't get into that
zone unless he really really let youdo it. I mean, Martha did,
obviously, Lafayette did, Hamilton did. But I remember when Abigail Adams
first met Washington, when he cameup to Boston to do the Boston Siege
in seventeen seventy five, and shewrote back to John and she said,
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you know, you told me thatI would be impressed with this guy,
but oh my god, you didn'ttell me the whole truth. He was
a physical specimen. I think JohnWayne and Stagecoach. There's disagreement even within
Mount Vernon's research people about how tallhe was when he died, and they
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measured him for his coffin. Itwas six three and a half. But
the people at Mount Vernon say they'vebent his toes when they measured it,
so he's really six two. Andso if you go to Mount Vernon,
that's what they tell you, andthat's the case. I guess what I
would accept. But the average heightof a mail at that point in time
was five to seven. No presidentin American history did not want to be
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president more than George Washington. Whenhe was going from Mount Vernon to New
York to become president be inaugurated,he said, I feel as if I'm
going to my own execution, Washington, and it's an interesting situation, an
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interesting historical fact, given our currentsituation with regard to a president he does
not want to leave office. Washingtoncouldn't wait to get back to Mount Vernon
and tried to retire after one term, and eventually did the second time.
He wasn't what we might call anofficionado of exits. He could be trusted
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with power because he did not wantto hold on to it. And when
he surrendered his commission and sword atthe end of the war, and it
occurred in Annapolis, which was then, believe it or not, the capital.
George the Third, when he wastold about that, said if he
did that, he will be thegreatest man in the world. You need
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to recover the historical context here.That's not what Caesar did. That's not
what Cromwell did. That's not whatNapoleon was going to do. That's not
what Lennon is going to do.That's not what Mal's going to do.
That's not what Castro is going todo. That's not what several dozen African
dictators are going to do. Butthat's what Washington did. And because he
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was so eager to surrender power,he could be trusted with it. If
you read Article two of the Constitution, which describes the executive branch, I
challenge you to tell me what thepresident can do and cannot do. It's
absolutely ambiguous. Because they're terrified ofcreating a king. The power of the
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presidency is not shaped by Article twoof the Constitution. It's shaped by Washington's
presidency, the presidence he sets duringhis eight years there, and it's a
powerful presidency symbolically a king, anelected king, but politically a prime minister
at the same time. That's avery powerful office. And it's Washington,
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not the Constitution that creates it.Yes, I mean he clearly established the
template in a very much undefined,unknown territory. But let's go back,
because he is almost like a monument, and that's what you wanted to do,
is to sort of make him veryhuman and accessible. Right. You
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notice, but the Washington Monument isone of the few monuments in Washington has
no words on it. I hadnever thought of that. It doesn't have
any words. It's the dominant monumentin the city. You go to Jefferson,
you go to Lincoln, you goto Martin Luther King that they're all
words. Washington is silent. Hemakes you read into him what you bring.
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So I guess what I'm sort ofasking, and I don't think there's
an easy answer, is what madehim who he is? Now? Sometimes
people are just born for a purpose, and you almost have to believe that
this is the case with George Washington. Because now he has a natural gift
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to be available to people while stillcreat having an aura about him that makes
you know that he's special, thatyou're deferential. That's a special gift,
and he seemingly it's a quality thatwas on display in his years, you
know, in his military service,and he had a lot of mistakes.
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He had a mistakes and a lotof events where he was in trouble,
but he kept growing with it andthere was still something about him that made
people defer to him. That's aquality. You can't teach it, you
can't convey it. You either haveit. Now, do you think there's
anything about his childhood? I knowhe was left when his father died early.
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Was it because he had to playmore of the man role in the
household with his mom? And he'snot the oldest child I believe. I
mean he had older half siblings.He had an older brother too. Yeah,
Okay, it's embarrassing to say this, but I spent eleven years reading
his papers and trying to write abouthim, wrote a book called His Excellency.
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Yes, and I cannot give youan answer to that question. That
is to say, I can saythat I think the very formative experience for
him as a young man was servicein the British Army during the French and
Indian War. As I said earlier, he's an ultimate he's a realist.
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He's the exact opposite of Jefferson.His thought process is shaped by his military
experience. He doesn't trust human nature. He doesn't believe that human beings are
naturally good and will do the rightthing, because he watched militia run away
in a lot of battles. Ithink his physicality is itself a beginning of
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an answer to your question. Heis simply a physical specimen, so that
when he walks into a room,he is noticed, and he dominates space.
He's also a great dancer. He'sgraceful, so that he's not an
oath but I think that and helearns from his mistakes. No great military
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leader in American history lost more battlesthan George Washington. General Howe defeated in
him almost every battle in the firsthalf of the war. But he's resilient,
he learns from his mistakes, andhe's enduring. And during the war
that was absolutely essential because much aswe'd like to believe that the American people
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supported the continent army. They didn'tThey supported local militia, but they didn't
support the continent army. So he'salways fighting. He asked for sixty thousand
troops, he never got more thanfifteen thousand at any rate. I think
physicality and the ability to learn frommistakes, and a realization that you can't
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count on people to do the rightthing. That the word utopia is Greek
for nowhere. And interestingly, hesays, you know, like when he's
when the Iroquois tribe are opposing himduring the French and Indian War, he
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says, if I was a NativeAmerican, I'd be fighting me too.
He says, if I was aslave, I'd run away. But I'm
not a slave, and I'm nota Native American, and I have to
do what I have to do.He's not intellectually a giant, but he
is emotionally a giant. Yes,So I think one would have to say
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that though he lost more battles thanhe may have won, and his strategies
may have been reasonably good to mehaving been in politics, the great strength
is that he could keep all thosevolunteer rag tag untrained you know folks together
with sometimes with no shoes. Ifyou can do that, I mean,
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you can keep them together and remainfaithful to what seems like an impossible cause
because you're dealing with the most formidablenavy in the world and he had to
keep them going. That is agift, and that is a gift of
what natural leadership right. I agree, and I think that initially in the
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war, Washington made a lot ofmistakes. Mostly did attempt to defend New
York and Long Island. But therewas a fatal almost a fatal mistake,
because he had an honor driven senseof war. He believed that if General
Howe and the British Army challenged him, he was honor bound. It was
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like it was like an offer toduel and you had to you had to
with honor answer that. That wasa big mistake. New York was indefensible
because it was an archapelago and theBritish Navy was going to be able to
command the land. He understood thathe didn't have to win the war.
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The British had to win it.It was a lot easier once you realized
that. And as long as hekept the continental Army intact, the British
couldn't win the war. And itwas also the case that as one British
officer, a naval officer said thatthe British force moving through America was like
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a ship going through the seas,and behind the ship the waves closed,
meaning everywhere they went. After theyleft, the militia took over again and
they couldn't control territory. But hekept the Continental Army intact because he understood
it. As long as that wastrue, the British could never win.
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And eventually the British never admitted theylost. They just simply said, we're
deciding to leave after Yorktown. It'snot worth it for us. And there
was never a surrender ceremony in NewYork either. He just they just left.
And if you look at British history, they conceal this from the British
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historians don't want to talk about thisat any rate. And he emerges from
that as the great hero, buthe's also the Cincinnatus. Cincinnatus is the
Roman officer who retires at the endof the war and never comes back,
and that's one of the reasons thatWashington is so reluctant to come back and
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become president. He says, Ihave sworn that I will never come back,
and I've sworn that in public.But at the constitutional convention where he's
made president, of course, it'sclear once they start talking about executive that
everybody knows who's going to be thefirst president. It's you don't have to
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take a vote or anything. Andso he's but he really feels awkward about
that. And if you read hiscorrespondence during the presidency, it's strange.
Over half the letters are about MountVernon. That's where he wants to be.
He doesn't want to be where heis. And again his reluctance to
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hold power and to exercise it ispart of the reason he can be trusted
with it. So but he wasan ambitious man. I mean, he
was clearly an ambitious man and reallyfrustrated from what I've read from you and
others that his inability to rise withthe in the British military. SERI,
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oh, yeah, the British.Imagine he applied to become an officer in
the British Army and he went allthe way up to Boston to talk to
the British commander and they rejected himout of hand. Now imagine how American
history would have gone in the otherdirect without him. I mean, it
is very seldom that a single figure, if you remove him from the historical
equation, will make a difference.But in Washington's case, it really would.
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That said, when he was inretirement, while most of the other
Virginia planners were going bankrupt because infact, slavery was not profitable and the
tobacco market was gone. He's theone guy who has resources because he inherits
from his service under the British agift of sixty thousand acres in western well,
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let's say western Pennsylvania what is nowand also what is now West Virginia,
and into a little bit of Ohio. That land is worth at that
time five hundred and fifty thousand dollars. In today's market, that's multiple millions.
So he's because of his service inthe British Army, he ends up
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being one of the Virginia planners whodoes not die bankrupt. Jeffers and dives
bankrupt, Madison dies back, Monroedivesbacker, Patrick, Henry dies brackt They
all do except for him. Healso diversified his crops, did he not?
He did. He's the first Virginiaplanner to go from tobacco to wheat.
He did that early in seventeen sixtyfive. He understands that that that
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that's the direction in some long term, since Virginia should have become like Pennsylvania.
They should have done away with slaveryand moved to a Gretan economy growing
wheat. They didn't do that.Though his ambition, though, was great,
he accepted the you know, theleadership role that Adams I think was
the one who suggested Washington should shouldbe the market Adams is. Some of
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the best things Adams did was nominateother people. And he's the person who
nominates Washington to be head of thewhat becomes the Cotton and Army. This
is in seventeen seventy five, andthey ask why he nominated Washington, and
he said, well, Washington's alwaysnominated wherever he is because he's always the
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tallest man in the room. Healso nominated John Marshall to be the first
Supreme Court or the second Supreme Courtjustice, and he served as Washington's vice
president of course during both terms.So Washington, do you think his ambition
had been satisfied by serving, youknow, as the head of the communal
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army and winning or by anyone's account, the America's account that war, and
his reluctance to get into the politicalframe. Maybe he also reflected his intellectual
people's quotient. In other words,he was very gifted at reading people,
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a sense of people. As yousaid, he recognized our limitations, and
he knew that this was going tobe a challenge. It's an under find
experience with a lot of ambitious menwanting to be chief in charge. And
do you think that is why hewas hesitant about accepting the presidency. I
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think it's very perceptive on you tothink that way, write and say that
he was aware of the fact thatwhoever entered the presidency was going to come
under enormous criticism and pressure. Hesaid, on several occasions, I made
it clear that my wartime correspondence wasgoing to be my story. That was
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it. I don't want to hearabout anything else. That's what I achieved,
that's what I did, That's whatI am most He didn't say proud
of, but that's the core ofmy commitment. I think that both Washington
and Adams came to power before therewas a party no such thing as political
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parties existed. In fact, Jeffersonsaid, if I must go to heaven
and a political party after for ornot to go at all. But he's
the creator of the first position party. Yeah, it's calls itself the Republican
Party. Some of the textbooks saydemocratic republic. That's not true, but
that Washington becomes president knowing that.But here's the other side. He also
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knows that America is attempting to createthe first nation sized republic in world history
since the Roman Empire. Republics tendto die young. This is the most
difficult and fragile period for this newnation state, which isn't really a nation.
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That is to say, you createa national government before you have a
national ethos. It's one of thereasons that Washington decides in the first year
and a half of his presidency tovisit every state. He's showing that nobody
agrees what the United States is.I don't think of themselves as America.
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They think of themselves as Virginians andSouth Carolinians and New Englanders. Washington,
but wherever Washington is, he isAmerica. That's it. And so he
visits every state. Has to goback to Rhode Island because they had not
been in the Union and all thatkind of thing. And that's where he
delivers a talk. I think itwas written by Jefferson, who is with
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him on this trip. That's thefirst statement about Jewish equality in America,
and it's in a synagogue there.It's famous within the Jewish faith as a
moment. But he is aware thefact that he's absolutely necessary. He's perhaps
the only man that can do it, can occupy that office and carry us
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through this most dangerous period. Butit will undoubtedly come as a cost.
He said, No one will leavea presidency with the same reputation that he
entered. No one, and thatincludes him. Let me ask you,
do you think he was unique inthe sense that, you know, really
good political leaders have the ability tolisten and that visit to all of the
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various states, His ability with histroops of being available to eating with them,
you know, having Martha Washington joinhim and be with them. Was
there any other any of the otherFounding fathers who had a similar gift.
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No, there isn't. I mean, I think each of them has distinctive
gifts, as I think Franklin inworld terms, is more famous than Washington
because of his sciences background in hisservice in Europe during in France. But
as I mentioned earlier, even Franklinsays, now Washington's demand, I think
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Hamilton is the most Hamilton would havegot the highest grade on the SATs.
He's this, and he's but he'salso aggressive in a way that's dangerous.
Jefferson is simultaneously extremely intellectually sophisticated butalso duplicitous, and at the end of
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his life he really behind the scenes, sticks the stiletto into Washington. During
Washington's presidency and before he passed away, Washington said to Martha after I'm gone,
if Thomas Jefferson ever wants to comeand visit, don't let him.
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And what happens is Washington Jefferson becomespresident in eighteen hundred and asks if he
can come, and Martha says,I can't say no to the president.
But George didn't what I'm here,but he came anyway, and Jefferson never
knew about this. By the way, one of the points I make in
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the body of work that I've done, however good and bet it is when
we talk about the founders, itsounds like we're talking about a single,
coherent unity. One of the strengthsof the Founding generations is its diversity,
intellectual, emotional, psychological diversity.There is built in checks and balances,
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not just in the Constitution, butin the makeup of the leadership in the
Founding era. If you just leaveHamilton alone, we're going to become an
autocracy. If you leave Jefferson alone, we're going to have anarchy. Madison
gosh knows where he fits into allthis, but that Washington, then,
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in that mix, is the personthat levitates above it. And the central
player that they all acknowledge is well, he's not a king. He doesn't
want to be a king. He'sopposed to that kind of definition of the
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presidency. But that he is justsimply a singular figure. And you've been
pressing me throughout the conversation, Ithink correctly to try to identify what the
qualities of mind and body and heartare there. It's like a beautiful woman's
beauty. You know it when yousee it. Yeah, that's it.
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Well, I also think, youknow, just as an observer of politics,
is that he listened to people,He made himself available to people.
I have believed too. Why washe the only one of the enslavers to
manument upon his death. He wasthe only one. I think because he
got to he came to appreciate thehumanity of the people who he hit enslaved
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by connecting with them. Because thesewere also many of them, some of
them at least, such as hisown ballot or were soldiers, were with
him out there during the war.And I think Billy Lee was his manum
mans to put him every day inthe war. And here he's Billy Lee's
the one he frees outright in hiswill. And Billy stays at Mount Vernon
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until until he dies. He's free, but he stays there, and he's
his remains are buried there. Washington, let me, you've triggered something in
my mind doing this, but thathe's the only prominent Virginia planner to free
his own slaves. That's true,But he comes late in the game,
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when he's elected president he thinks aboutgetting rid of his slaves, not freedom,
but selling them so that no presidentshould ever own slaves. He doesn't
do it. It would have beenan interesting president. It would have been
just as important as the two termdecision. I think that the big difference
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in Washington and other Virginians. Thatcomes true at the end. You want
them to get there sooner, buthe won't. For most Virginian slave owners,
the issue of slavery or emancipation isn'tjust economic we need them for that,
because in fact, the slaves arenot cost effective in Virginia. It's
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what do you do with the freedslaves. They cannot imagine a biracial society.
The only way, Jefferson said,the only way you can free him
is if you send him to someother country. Washington doesn't think that.
Washington says, in my will,I free all the slaves that I own,
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which is about half the slaves atMount Vernon, because Martha in her
will has inherited the others and legallyowns them. And he not only his
freesing, but he provides for themduring their early years and after they have
freed, and sets up a trustfund for them. And there are still
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descendants of those freed slaves in thecommunity in Fairfax County as we speak.
But that he doesn't think they haveto go somewhere else. Jefferson thinks that
Madison thinks that all the Virginians thinkthat he doesn't think that what he says
in his will, they will befreed upon the death of Martha. Yeah.
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When the slave community finds out aboutthat, rumors circulate that they're going
to poison her. So she freeshim immediately. He gets it right in
the end, But as if youbring a modern day set of moral values
to the issue, and I don'tthink we want to do that, as
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that's a sense of presentism that youwant to recover him in his own context.
But there are many moments that goshdarned, George, free him now,
get it done, face it,face it now, and he's he
won't get there until the very end. There's an escape slave who escapes own
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the judge right, and she fleesand is eventually found in New Hampshire,
and he sends somebody up together herand and says, I want you to
come back, and she says,I'll come back if you promise to free
me when you die. Well,he's want to do that anyway, but
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he won't do it. He says, I do not listen to a slave
tell me what I have to do. No, come on, George,
get it right here, okay,And he doesn't. He doesn't get it
right. And I think that whenwe were talking about his early years,
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he never completely sheds the values ofa Virginia planner and squire. That's how,
you know, it's hard for usto mention, but people grew up
presuming slavery. But by the way, that wasn't exceptional. I mean that's
most every nation in the world practicedslavery, including most of the African tribes.
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The different well I'll get into thedifference with the American situation is that
if you are a slave owner inEngland, France, Spain, Portugal,
the slaves live an ocean away here, they're right here, and so we
have the But that's that's going tobe the challenge for the revolutionary generation to
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find a way to end slavery andassimilate the native the African American population.
And well, I've written about thefounders in a way that is it's not
this is one area they're not goingto succeed. This is one area where
they're going to not do everything thatwe'd like them to do. Well.
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They made it complicated by creating whatwe call what Isabelle Wilkerson calls a caste
system, which makes it a toughersituation, as you say, because it's
right here in the United States.But let me ask you as a sort
of a last point, because Idon't want to unduly impost on your time,
which has been very generous. Washingtond C. George Washington's role in
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bringing the capital here and making certainlywith no money. I mean, that
was the other thing that was sothey already broke, and then they kind
of, as they say in themusical Hamilton Room where it happened, you
know, to get Hamilton on board, already broke, and then they'd come
up with a venue where there's practicallynothing here and it's going to cost money
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to build it. There is thisbargain made in Jefferson's quarters between Hamilton and
Madison to break the deadlock that's currentlygoing on in Congress over where the Capitol
should be located. And when youlook at the choices, it's really funny.
Now you look at it's Trenton,Annapolis, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, somewhere
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on the Susquehanna. There are elevendifferent options, and everybody wants their option,
and there's this compromise made whereby Madisonagrees to support a Potomac location,
leaving imprecise we're on the Potomac,in return for which, according to the
plan that goes into place, willnot oppose Hamilton's assumption plan for the economy,
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assumption of the state deaths. Sothat's the bargain. It's an inside
bargain, but it's still when it'swhen it's finished, then the question becomes,
well where on the Potomac? Andif they throw this to the Congress
once again, it's going to becacaphony. And so what they say is
(37:27):
just leave it to Washington. Washingtonwill now become the sole planner for this
one hundred square miles of the whateverthat wherever they put it in the Capitol,
Madison had sort of said the PotomacWay up into Pennsylvania, that would
appease the Pennsylvanian. And I thinkthat that Washington didn't do that. He
(37:51):
probably tried to appease the Pennsylvanian bynaming the main street Pennsylvania Avenue. But
that at any rate, it's Washingtonwho decides where to locate it, and
it's a much more eastern location.He's criticized for that because something he owns
some land and Alexandria, and thatcrosses over the Potomac there, so it's
his benefit. He's embarrassed about that, but that the decision about the local
(38:15):
And you're right, it's going totake ten years to build this thing,
and during that time there will bea temporary capital Philadelphia. A lot of
people think it'll never leave once.You know, once you go to Philadelphia,
never leave. But that unlike othercapitals Vienna, Paris, London,
(38:37):
the American capital is not a placewhere the culture and the economy, the
banking system is located. They separate. In other words, they don't like
bankers, they don't want them,and so that DC's isolation is an asset.
But people would come and they wouldsay, where's the capital, and
(38:58):
they would say, you're standing inthe middle. Love it. It's uh,
you know, people are shooting shootingDuckhall in the Congress can't be because
of the note. Anyway, It'sa rural location, and Washington himself never
inhabits it during his presidency. Itdoesn't become available. The first president to
inhabit it is is Adams. Yeah, and I and many think that had
(39:22):
Washington not died on the eve ofwhen the city was to open, the
Congress never would have still found theresources to complete it. You know,
I know something about doing something inWashington, d C. Where it kind
of takes it, it doesn't giveyou the money. So yeah, yeah,
I mean the district has never beenfully represented. And as you well
(39:45):
know, and I think if Washingtonhad lived and he sort of said I'm
going to make it to the nextcentury, he just missed, you know,
he would have certainly been the majorspeaker at the dedication, at the
dedication, yeah yeah, And youlook at some old pictures, you know,
the construction of these various major monumentalbuildings. It's until the Civil War
(40:08):
really almost Washington, DC is reallyno without a doubt. The Civil War
is when it becomes or starts becominga meaningful city. But this has been
terrific. I think we all knowwe would not be the United States of
America have won that war without GeorgeWashington, and we who live in Washington,
(40:30):
d C. Would not be hereas the capital had it not been
in many ways because of the resolveof George Washington. And while slavery played
a big role in the location andslaves built most of these a lot of
these built. Yeah, Capital andthe White House. But he had a
vision that this region would be areal gateway to the West. I think
(40:52):
this is an early version of Potomacfever. Fever. They believe that Potomac
is the link to the Ohio andthe Ohio to Mississippi, so that Alexandria
and Washington will become the major harborsin America because that's going to be the
gateway to the West. It's ultimatelythe Erie Canal becomes the way rather than
(41:15):
the Potomac. But Potomac fever isheavy among Jefferson, Adam Washington all.
I think investment wise, this isgoing to be a big, big thing
for them, But unfortunately nature hasn'tworked out. The Potomac dies somewhere up
there in Pennsylvania. Right. Well, this has been terrific. I also
(41:36):
would have to say that I dothink it was George Washington who picked pil
Enfant and shared his vision of thegrand avenues in this beautiful city which it
has become. Of course, I'ma Washingtonians, I'm biased, but he
shared that vision. He had amuch bigger vision for this city. Then
let's say Thomas Jefferson and so hewas a bigger than life personality, and
(42:02):
the beauty of today is that you'vehelped us share that vision, animate that
individual in a way that we canall appreciate and respect. It's been a
delight, and we could pick noone better than you to help us understand
George Washington and our founding fathers andhow it was an exciting and unique part
(42:24):
of world history and probably the ultimatemoment in American history. Joseph Ellas,
you've been terrific, and I thinkyou know we have a habit of looking
at George Washington only as this figure, this who sits on a monument like
as against someone who was flesh andblood, and without a doubt he was
(42:49):
in many ways the defining founding father, and I think you reinforced that because
he had a blank slate with theConstitution in terms of what one does as
a president, and he gave purposeto it, a process to it,
a cabinet, and most of all, a respect for the people will that
(43:10):
we would be a democratic, republicansystem of government. And therefore he surrendered
office after two terms. Thank youso much. I don't think everyone appreciates
that in the way they should andyou have helped us understand that oh so
much better. Thank you, Josephellis my pleasure. This episode was edited
(43:37):
by Beywolf, Rockland, Roosevelt Heine, and Lisa Shudy of Two Squared Media
Productions. Special thanks to fulk Diversityfor ensuring purposeful conversations when reflecting on our
complex history and basking strategies for engagingour stakeholder commune unity. Thanks as well
(44:01):
to Joy Ford Austin, Jody Sumuda, and Amy Anthony at the Institute of
Politics, Policy and History. Weare grateful to the Kellogg Foundation for their
generous support of this Bounding Father's Legacyseries. Be sure to subscribe wherever you
(44:22):
listen to podcasts.
Hi. I am Sharon Pratt.I'm the founding director of IPPH, the
Institute of Politics, Policy and Historyhoused on the campus of the University of
the District of Columbia, with theparticular mission of rediscovering the history of Washington,
DC. And to that end,we're hosting a series called The Founding
(00:25):
Fathers Legacy Series, where we talkabout and examined the three founding fathers pivotal
to establishing the capital in the Southalong the banks of the Potomac. They
were James Madison, Thomas Jefferson,and then the one about whom we speak
today, George Washington, our firstPresident. And we have the perfect historian
(00:50):
to help us understand George Washington.He's an extraordinary historian. He has written
many books, particularly focused on onthe Founding Fathers. He won the National
Book Award for his work on ThomasJefferson, the American Sphinx, the Character
of Thomas Jefferson, and the PulitzerPrize for History for his work Founding Brothers
(01:15):
the Revolutionary Generation. But today wespeak to him about George Washington and his
work. His Excellency, George Washington, I can tell from his works as
well as many comments. I observethat he's a huge fan of this founding.
Father, what a wonderful treat forus to have you with us today,
(01:38):
Joseph Ellis, First, I'd liketo ask, how is it that
you became so consumed with this generalfocus of the founding of this country,
the personalities who were pivotal to thefounding? You had what eleven books focused
(02:02):
on something like that? I thinkit might be thirteen, but I've lost
count. And give you a briefanswer, that is, I spent some
time. I got a PhD atYale and ended up teaching at West Point
for three years as my military service. When I started to teach at Mount
Holyoke, I realized that the profession, the historical profession, was pursuing a
(02:25):
different path. If you want togo on in American history, you really
have to do either women, NativeAmericans or African Americans. And I thought
that was interesting, but that atthe same time, these exhaustive publication projects
for the papers of the Founders werecoming out and no one was reading them,
(02:51):
and they have created what is thefullest account of a political elite in
recorded history. I mean the papersof Washington, Adam Jefferson, Madison,
Hamilton, and I've read them alland I thought that was a story that
needed to be told, and finalpoint that I needed to rescue them from
(03:14):
mythology. That new nations often requiremythological heroes. Think of Rombulus and Ramus,
or el sid or King Arthur.But these are all fictional characters.
The founders were real people. Theywere all imperfect human beings, Washington included.
(03:38):
But they need to be recovered asprobably the greatest generation of political leaders
in American history. But all ofthem are also flawed, Washington included,
and need to be recovered as humanbeings that have something to teach us.
In fact, if they're perfect,wouldn't have his nath when we learned from
(03:59):
them. So that's a somewhat longanswer to a short question. So you
felt that this critical part of ourhistory and unique history was not being adequately
chronicled, and that was sort ofthe impetus to getting involved and out of
that experience. Not surprisingly, youput a particular focus on, you know,
(04:23):
the premier personalities, obviously George Washington, but to include Madison, Jefferson,
Adams, Hamilton, and so forth. And if you ask them,
I mean, were there as sevenof you, if you ask them,
they would say Franklin's the wisest,Jefferson's the most intellectually sophisticated, Adams is
(04:46):
the best read, Madison's the mostskillful inside player. But Washington's the greatest,
no question about it. A singularfigure here, and even when he
died, Franklin left his walking stickto Washington and said he can use it
(05:10):
in his walk towards immortality. Thatsaid, we need to recover him as
a as a human being, asa leader, but as a man who
is not going to make you happyon every issue that you want to raise
him, especially on the issue ofslavery. Yeah, I think that that
(05:30):
obviously played a big role in bringingthe capital to the banks of the Potomac
in that fight about it. Butbefore we delve into that, let's let's
dealve more into George Washington the mainHe obviously was a gifted leader. And
the reason I suggest that is thathere he is with all of these men
(05:53):
who his advisors much better educated thanhe. I mean, Harvard, you
know, a Columbia and so forthright, and yet even in their deep
fights, even in their differences,they seemed to uniformly defer to him what
Washington. Washington gathered around himself peoplewho were very well educated, for precisely
(06:16):
the reason that he knew that hewasn't. I used to say that Adams
went to Harvard, Jefferson went towilliam and Mary Washington went to war.
War was his college and educational experience, the French Indian War. But he
was profoundly aware of his own inadequacy, and he called, he used to
(06:40):
he said, I want pen menaround me, people who can write,
people and Hamilton wrote. Hamilton wrotethe Farewell Address, for example, And
he was aware of those deficiencies,and he wanted to compensate for gathering around
him some really distinguished people, andthey were part of his unofficial family.
(07:02):
And there was a kind of zonearound Washington. You didn't get into that
zone unless he really really let youdo it. I mean, Martha did,
obviously, Lafayette did, Hamilton did. But I remember when Abigail Adams
first met Washington, when he cameup to Boston to do the Boston Siege
in seventeen seventy five, and shewrote back to John and she said,
(07:26):
you know, you told me thatI would be impressed with this guy,
but oh my god, you didn'ttell me the whole truth. He was
a physical specimen. I think JohnWayne and Stagecoach. There's disagreement even within
Mount Vernon's research people about how tallhe was when he died, and they
(07:50):
measured him for his coffin. Itwas six three and a half. But
the people at Mount Vernon say they'vebent his toes when they measured it,
so he's really six two. Andso if you go to Mount Vernon,
that's what they tell you, andthat's the case. I guess what I
would accept. But the average heightof a mail at that point in time
was five to seven. No presidentin American history did not want to be
(08:16):
president more than George Washington. Whenhe was going from Mount Vernon to New
York to become president be inaugurated,he said, I feel as if I'm
going to my own execution, Washington, and it's an interesting situation, an
(08:37):
interesting historical fact, given our currentsituation with regard to a president he does
not want to leave office. Washingtoncouldn't wait to get back to Mount Vernon
and tried to retire after one term, and eventually did the second time.
He wasn't what we might call anofficionado of exits. He could be trusted
(08:58):
with power because he did not wantto hold on to it. And when
he surrendered his commission and sword atthe end of the war, and it
occurred in Annapolis, which was then, believe it or not, the capital.
George the Third, when he wastold about that, said if he
did that, he will be thegreatest man in the world. You need
(09:22):
to recover the historical context here.That's not what Caesar did. That's not
what Cromwell did. That's not whatNapoleon was going to do. That's not
what Lennon is going to do.That's not what Mal's going to do.
That's not what Castro is going todo. That's not what several dozen African
dictators are going to do. Butthat's what Washington did. And because he
(09:45):
was so eager to surrender power,he could be trusted with it. If
you read Article two of the Constitution, which describes the executive branch, I
challenge you to tell me what thepresident can do and cannot do. It's
absolutely ambiguous. Because they're terrified ofcreating a king. The power of the
(10:07):
presidency is not shaped by Article twoof the Constitution. It's shaped by Washington's
presidency, the presidence he sets duringhis eight years there, and it's a
powerful presidency symbolically a king, anelected king, but politically a prime minister
at the same time. That's avery powerful office. And it's Washington,
(10:28):
not the Constitution that creates it.Yes, I mean he clearly established the
template in a very much undefined,unknown territory. But let's go back,
because he is almost like a monument, and that's what you wanted to do,
is to sort of make him veryhuman and accessible. Right. You
(10:50):
notice, but the Washington Monument isone of the few monuments in Washington has
no words on it. I hadnever thought of that. It doesn't have
any words. It's the dominant monumentin the city. You go to Jefferson,
you go to Lincoln, you goto Martin Luther King that they're all
words. Washington is silent. Hemakes you read into him what you bring.
(11:16):
So I guess what I'm sort ofasking, and I don't think there's
an easy answer, is what madehim who he is? Now? Sometimes
people are just born for a purpose, and you almost have to believe that
this is the case with George Washington. Because now he has a natural gift
(11:37):
to be available to people while stillcreat having an aura about him that makes
you know that he's special, thatyou're deferential. That's a special gift,
and he seemingly it's a quality thatwas on display in his years, you
know, in his military service,and he had a lot of mistakes.
(11:58):
He had a mistakes and a lotof events where he was in trouble,
but he kept growing with it andthere was still something about him that made
people defer to him. That's aquality. You can't teach it, you
can't convey it. You either haveit. Now, do you think there's
anything about his childhood? I knowhe was left when his father died early.
(12:22):
Was it because he had to playmore of the man role in the
household with his mom? And he'snot the oldest child I believe. I
mean he had older half siblings.He had an older brother too. Yeah,
Okay, it's embarrassing to say this, but I spent eleven years reading
his papers and trying to write abouthim, wrote a book called His Excellency.
(12:43):
Yes, and I cannot give youan answer to that question. That
is to say, I can saythat I think the very formative experience for
him as a young man was servicein the British Army during the French and
Indian War. As I said earlier, he's an ultimate he's a realist.
(13:03):
He's the exact opposite of Jefferson.His thought process is shaped by his military
experience. He doesn't trust human nature. He doesn't believe that human beings are
naturally good and will do the rightthing, because he watched militia run away
in a lot of battles. Ithink his physicality is itself a beginning of
(13:28):
an answer to your question. Heis simply a physical specimen, so that
when he walks into a room,he is noticed, and he dominates space.
He's also a great dancer. He'sgraceful, so that he's not an
oath but I think that and helearns from his mistakes. No great military
(13:56):
leader in American history lost more battlesthan George Washington. General Howe defeated in
him almost every battle in the firsthalf of the war. But he's resilient,
he learns from his mistakes, andhe's enduring. And during the war
that was absolutely essential because much aswe'd like to believe that the American people
(14:20):
supported the continent army. They didn'tThey supported local militia, but they didn't
support the continent army. So he'salways fighting. He asked for sixty thousand
troops, he never got more thanfifteen thousand at any rate. I think
physicality and the ability to learn frommistakes, and a realization that you can't
(14:45):
count on people to do the rightthing. That the word utopia is Greek
for nowhere. And interestingly, hesays, you know, like when he's
when the Iroquois tribe are opposing himduring the French and Indian War, he
(15:07):
says, if I was a NativeAmerican, I'd be fighting me too.
He says, if I was aslave, I'd run away. But I'm
not a slave, and I'm nota Native American, and I have to
do what I have to do.He's not intellectually a giant, but he
is emotionally a giant. Yes,So I think one would have to say
(15:28):
that though he lost more battles thanhe may have won, and his strategies
may have been reasonably good to mehaving been in politics, the great strength
is that he could keep all thosevolunteer rag tag untrained you know folks together
with sometimes with no shoes. Ifyou can do that, I mean,
(15:52):
you can keep them together and remainfaithful to what seems like an impossible cause
because you're dealing with the most formidablenavy in the world and he had to
keep them going. That is agift, and that is a gift of
what natural leadership right. I agree, and I think that initially in the
(16:15):
war, Washington made a lot ofmistakes. Mostly did attempt to defend New
York and Long Island. But therewas a fatal almost a fatal mistake,
because he had an honor driven senseof war. He believed that if General
Howe and the British Army challenged him, he was honor bound. It was
(16:38):
like it was like an offer toduel and you had to you had to
with honor answer that. That wasa big mistake. New York was indefensible
because it was an archapelago and theBritish Navy was going to be able to
command the land. He understood thathe didn't have to win the war.
(17:03):
The British had to win it.It was a lot easier once you realized
that. And as long as hekept the continental Army intact, the British
couldn't win the war. And itwas also the case that as one British
officer, a naval officer said thatthe British force moving through America was like
(17:27):
a ship going through the seas,and behind the ship the waves closed,
meaning everywhere they went. After theyleft, the militia took over again and
they couldn't control territory. But hekept the Continental Army intact because he understood
it. As long as that wastrue, the British could never win.
(17:49):
And eventually the British never admitted theylost. They just simply said, we're
deciding to leave after Yorktown. It'snot worth it for us. And there
was never a surrender ceremony in NewYork either. He just they just left.
And if you look at British history, they conceal this from the British
(18:10):
historians don't want to talk about thisat any rate. And he emerges from
that as the great hero, buthe's also the Cincinnatus. Cincinnatus is the
Roman officer who retires at the endof the war and never comes back,
and that's one of the reasons thatWashington is so reluctant to come back and
(18:36):
become president. He says, Ihave sworn that I will never come back,
and I've sworn that in public.But at the constitutional convention where he's
made president, of course, it'sclear once they start talking about executive that
everybody knows who's going to be thefirst president. It's you don't have to
(18:57):
take a vote or anything. Andso he's but he really feels awkward about
that. And if you read hiscorrespondence during the presidency, it's strange.
Over half the letters are about MountVernon. That's where he wants to be.
He doesn't want to be where heis. And again his reluctance to
(19:22):
hold power and to exercise it ispart of the reason he can be trusted
with it. So but he wasan ambitious man. I mean, he
was clearly an ambitious man and reallyfrustrated from what I've read from you and
others that his inability to rise withthe in the British military. SERI,
(19:44):
oh, yeah, the British.Imagine he applied to become an officer in
the British Army and he went allthe way up to Boston to talk to
the British commander and they rejected himout of hand. Now imagine how American
history would have gone in the otherdirect without him. I mean, it
is very seldom that a single figure, if you remove him from the historical
equation, will make a difference.But in Washington's case, it really would.
(20:08):
That said, when he was inretirement, while most of the other
Virginia planners were going bankrupt because infact, slavery was not profitable and the
tobacco market was gone. He's theone guy who has resources because he inherits
from his service under the British agift of sixty thousand acres in western well,
(20:34):
let's say western Pennsylvania what is nowand also what is now West Virginia,
and into a little bit of Ohio. That land is worth at that
time five hundred and fifty thousand dollars. In today's market, that's multiple millions.
So he's because of his service inthe British Army, he ends up
(20:55):
being one of the Virginia planners whodoes not die bankrupt. Jeffers and dives
bankrupt, Madison dies back, Monroedivesbacker, Patrick, Henry dies brackt They
all do except for him. Healso diversified his crops, did he not?
He did. He's the first Virginiaplanner to go from tobacco to wheat.
He did that early in seventeen sixtyfive. He understands that that that
(21:18):
that's the direction in some long term, since Virginia should have become like Pennsylvania.
They should have done away with slaveryand moved to a Gretan economy growing
wheat. They didn't do that.Though his ambition, though, was great,
he accepted the you know, theleadership role that Adams I think was
the one who suggested Washington should shouldbe the market Adams is. Some of
(21:45):
the best things Adams did was nominateother people. And he's the person who
nominates Washington to be head of thewhat becomes the Cotton and Army. This
is in seventeen seventy five, andthey ask why he nominated Washington, and
he said, well, Washington's alwaysnominated wherever he is because he's always the
(22:07):
tallest man in the room. Healso nominated John Marshall to be the first
Supreme Court or the second Supreme Courtjustice, and he served as Washington's vice
president of course during both terms.So Washington, do you think his ambition
had been satisfied by serving, youknow, as the head of the communal
(22:29):
army and winning or by anyone's account, the America's account that war, and
his reluctance to get into the politicalframe. Maybe he also reflected his intellectual
people's quotient. In other words,he was very gifted at reading people,
(22:49):
a sense of people. As yousaid, he recognized our limitations, and
he knew that this was going tobe a challenge. It's an under find
experience with a lot of ambitious menwanting to be chief in charge. And
do you think that is why hewas hesitant about accepting the presidency. I
(23:12):
think it's very perceptive on you tothink that way, write and say that
he was aware of the fact thatwhoever entered the presidency was going to come
under enormous criticism and pressure. Hesaid, on several occasions, I made
it clear that my wartime correspondence wasgoing to be my story. That was
(23:34):
it. I don't want to hearabout anything else. That's what I achieved,
that's what I did, That's whatI am most He didn't say proud
of, but that's the core ofmy commitment. I think that both Washington
and Adams came to power before therewas a party no such thing as political
(23:56):
parties existed. In fact, Jeffersonsaid, if I must go to heaven
and a political party after for ornot to go at all. But he's
the creator of the first position party. Yeah, it's calls itself the Republican
Party. Some of the textbooks saydemocratic republic. That's not true, but
that Washington becomes president knowing that.But here's the other side. He also
(24:19):
knows that America is attempting to createthe first nation sized republic in world history
since the Roman Empire. Republics tendto die young. This is the most
difficult and fragile period for this newnation state, which isn't really a nation.
(24:40):
That is to say, you createa national government before you have a
national ethos. It's one of thereasons that Washington decides in the first year
and a half of his presidency tovisit every state. He's showing that nobody
agrees what the United States is.I don't think of themselves as America.
(25:00):
They think of themselves as Virginians andSouth Carolinians and New Englanders. Washington,
but wherever Washington is, he isAmerica. That's it. And so he
visits every state. Has to goback to Rhode Island because they had not
been in the Union and all thatkind of thing. And that's where he
delivers a talk. I think itwas written by Jefferson, who is with
(25:23):
him on this trip. That's thefirst statement about Jewish equality in America,
and it's in a synagogue there.It's famous within the Jewish faith as a
moment. But he is aware thefact that he's absolutely necessary. He's perhaps
the only man that can do it, can occupy that office and carry us
(25:48):
through this most dangerous period. Butit will undoubtedly come as a cost.
He said, No one will leavea presidency with the same reputation that he
entered. No one, and thatincludes him. Let me ask you,
do you think he was unique inthe sense that, you know, really
good political leaders have the ability tolisten and that visit to all of the
(26:11):
various states, His ability with histroops of being available to eating with them,
you know, having Martha Washington joinhim and be with them. Was
there any other any of the otherFounding fathers who had a similar gift.
(26:33):
No, there isn't. I mean, I think each of them has distinctive
gifts, as I think Franklin inworld terms, is more famous than Washington
because of his sciences background in hisservice in Europe during in France. But
as I mentioned earlier, even Franklinsays, now Washington's demand, I think
(27:00):
Hamilton is the most Hamilton would havegot the highest grade on the SATs.
He's this, and he's but he'salso aggressive in a way that's dangerous.
Jefferson is simultaneously extremely intellectually sophisticated butalso duplicitous, and at the end of
(27:21):
his life he really behind the scenes, sticks the stiletto into Washington. During
Washington's presidency and before he passed away, Washington said to Martha after I'm gone,
if Thomas Jefferson ever wants to comeand visit, don't let him.
(27:45):
And what happens is Washington Jefferson becomespresident in eighteen hundred and asks if he
can come, and Martha says,I can't say no to the president.
But George didn't what I'm here,but he came anyway, and Jefferson never
knew about this. By the way, one of the points I make in
(28:07):
the body of work that I've done, however good and bet it is when
we talk about the founders, itsounds like we're talking about a single,
coherent unity. One of the strengthsof the Founding generations is its diversity,
intellectual, emotional, psychological diversity.There is built in checks and balances,
(28:33):
not just in the Constitution, butin the makeup of the leadership in the
Founding era. If you just leaveHamilton alone, we're going to become an
autocracy. If you leave Jefferson alone, we're going to have anarchy. Madison
gosh knows where he fits into allthis, but that Washington, then,
(28:55):
in that mix, is the personthat levitates above it. And the central
player that they all acknowledge is well, he's not a king. He doesn't
want to be a king. He'sopposed to that kind of definition of the
(29:18):
presidency. But that he is justsimply a singular figure. And you've been
pressing me throughout the conversation, Ithink correctly to try to identify what the
qualities of mind and body and heartare there. It's like a beautiful woman's
beauty. You know it when yousee it. Yeah, that's it.
(29:41):
Well, I also think, youknow, just as an observer of politics,
is that he listened to people,He made himself available to people.
I have believed too. Why washe the only one of the enslavers to
manument upon his death. He wasthe only one. I think because he
got to he came to appreciate thehumanity of the people who he hit enslaved
(30:06):
by connecting with them. Because thesewere also many of them, some of
them at least, such as hisown ballot or were soldiers, were with
him out there during the war.And I think Billy Lee was his manum
mans to put him every day inthe war. And here he's Billy Lee's
the one he frees outright in hiswill. And Billy stays at Mount Vernon
(30:29):
until until he dies. He's free, but he stays there, and he's
his remains are buried there. Washington, let me, you've triggered something in
my mind doing this, but thathe's the only prominent Virginia planner to free
his own slaves. That's true,But he comes late in the game,
(30:52):
when he's elected president he thinks aboutgetting rid of his slaves, not freedom,
but selling them so that no presidentshould ever own slaves. He doesn't
do it. It would have beenan interesting president. It would have been
just as important as the two termdecision. I think that the big difference
(31:15):
in Washington and other Virginians. Thatcomes true at the end. You want
them to get there sooner, buthe won't. For most Virginian slave owners,
the issue of slavery or emancipation isn'tjust economic we need them for that,
because in fact, the slaves arenot cost effective in Virginia. It's
(31:41):
what do you do with the freedslaves. They cannot imagine a biracial society.
The only way, Jefferson said,the only way you can free him
is if you send him to someother country. Washington doesn't think that.
Washington says, in my will,I free all the slaves that I own,
(32:07):
which is about half the slaves atMount Vernon, because Martha in her
will has inherited the others and legallyowns them. And he not only his
freesing, but he provides for themduring their early years and after they have
freed, and sets up a trustfund for them. And there are still
(32:30):
descendants of those freed slaves in thecommunity in Fairfax County as we speak.
But that he doesn't think they haveto go somewhere else. Jefferson thinks that
Madison thinks that all the Virginians thinkthat he doesn't think that what he says
in his will, they will befreed upon the death of Martha. Yeah.
(32:53):
When the slave community finds out aboutthat, rumors circulate that they're going
to poison her. So she freeshim immediately. He gets it right in
the end, But as if youbring a modern day set of moral values
to the issue, and I don'tthink we want to do that, as
(33:14):
that's a sense of presentism that youwant to recover him in his own context.
But there are many moments that goshdarned, George, free him now,
get it done, face it,face it now, and he's he
won't get there until the very end. There's an escape slave who escapes own
(33:37):
the judge right, and she fleesand is eventually found in New Hampshire,
and he sends somebody up together herand and says, I want you to
come back, and she says,I'll come back if you promise to free
me when you die. Well,he's want to do that anyway, but
(34:01):
he won't do it. He says, I do not listen to a slave
tell me what I have to do. No, come on, George,
get it right here, okay,And he doesn't. He doesn't get it
right. And I think that whenwe were talking about his early years,
(34:22):
he never completely sheds the values ofa Virginia planner and squire. That's how,
you know, it's hard for usto mention, but people grew up
presuming slavery. But by the way, that wasn't exceptional. I mean that's
most every nation in the world practicedslavery, including most of the African tribes.
(34:45):
The different well I'll get into thedifference with the American situation is that
if you are a slave owner inEngland, France, Spain, Portugal,
the slaves live an ocean away here, they're right here, and so we
have the But that's that's going tobe the challenge for the revolutionary generation to
(35:07):
find a way to end slavery andassimilate the native the African American population.
And well, I've written about thefounders in a way that is it's not
this is one area they're not goingto succeed. This is one area where
they're going to not do everything thatwe'd like them to do. Well.
(35:28):
They made it complicated by creating whatwe call what Isabelle Wilkerson calls a caste
system, which makes it a toughersituation, as you say, because it's
right here in the United States.But let me ask you as a sort
of a last point, because Idon't want to unduly impost on your time,
which has been very generous. Washingtond C. George Washington's role in
(35:51):
bringing the capital here and making certainlywith no money. I mean, that
was the other thing that was sothey already broke, and then they kind
of, as they say in themusical Hamilton Room where it happened, you
know, to get Hamilton on board, already broke, and then they'd come
up with a venue where there's practicallynothing here and it's going to cost money
(36:13):
to build it. There is thisbargain made in Jefferson's quarters between Hamilton and
Madison to break the deadlock that's currentlygoing on in Congress over where the Capitol
should be located. And when youlook at the choices, it's really funny.
Now you look at it's Trenton,Annapolis, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, somewhere
(36:36):
on the Susquehanna. There are elevendifferent options, and everybody wants their option,
and there's this compromise made whereby Madisonagrees to support a Potomac location,
leaving imprecise we're on the Potomac,in return for which, according to the
plan that goes into place, willnot oppose Hamilton's assumption plan for the economy,
(37:05):
assumption of the state deaths. Sothat's the bargain. It's an inside
bargain, but it's still when it'swhen it's finished, then the question becomes,
well where on the Potomac? Andif they throw this to the Congress
once again, it's going to becacaphony. And so what they say is
(37:27):
just leave it to Washington. Washingtonwill now become the sole planner for this
one hundred square miles of the whateverthat wherever they put it in the Capitol,
Madison had sort of said the PotomacWay up into Pennsylvania, that would
appease the Pennsylvanian. And I thinkthat that Washington didn't do that. He
(37:51):
probably tried to appease the Pennsylvanian bynaming the main street Pennsylvania Avenue. But
that at any rate, it's Washingtonwho decides where to locate it, and
it's a much more eastern location.He's criticized for that because something he owns
some land and Alexandria, and thatcrosses over the Potomac there, so it's
his benefit. He's embarrassed about that, but that the decision about the local
(38:15):
And you're right, it's going totake ten years to build this thing,
and during that time there will bea temporary capital Philadelphia. A lot of
people think it'll never leave once.You know, once you go to Philadelphia,
never leave. But that unlike othercapitals Vienna, Paris, London,
(38:37):
the American capital is not a placewhere the culture and the economy, the
banking system is located. They separate. In other words, they don't like
bankers, they don't want them,and so that DC's isolation is an asset.
But people would come and they wouldsay, where's the capital, and
(38:58):
they would say, you're standing inthe middle. Love it. It's uh,
you know, people are shooting shootingDuckhall in the Congress can't be because
of the note. Anyway, It'sa rural location, and Washington himself never
inhabits it during his presidency. Itdoesn't become available. The first president to
inhabit it is is Adams. Yeah, and I and many think that had
(39:22):
Washington not died on the eve ofwhen the city was to open, the
Congress never would have still found theresources to complete it. You know,
I know something about doing something inWashington, d C. Where it kind
of takes it, it doesn't giveyou the money. So yeah, yeah,
I mean the district has never beenfully represented. And as you well
(39:45):
know, and I think if Washingtonhad lived and he sort of said I'm
going to make it to the nextcentury, he just missed, you know,
he would have certainly been the majorspeaker at the dedication, at the
dedication, yeah yeah, And youlook at some old pictures, you know,
the construction of these various major monumentalbuildings. It's until the Civil War
(40:08):
really almost Washington, DC is reallyno without a doubt. The Civil War
is when it becomes or starts becominga meaningful city. But this has been
terrific. I think we all knowwe would not be the United States of
America have won that war without GeorgeWashington, and we who live in Washington,
(40:30):
d C. Would not be hereas the capital had it not been
in many ways because of the resolveof George Washington. And while slavery played
a big role in the location andslaves built most of these a lot of
these built. Yeah, Capital andthe White House. But he had a
vision that this region would be areal gateway to the West. I think
(40:52):
this is an early version of Potomacfever. Fever. They believe that Potomac
is the link to the Ohio andthe Ohio to Mississippi, so that Alexandria
and Washington will become the major harborsin America because that's going to be the
gateway to the West. It's ultimatelythe Erie Canal becomes the way rather than
(41:15):
the Potomac. But Potomac fever isheavy among Jefferson, Adam Washington all.
I think investment wise, this isgoing to be a big, big thing
for them, But unfortunately nature hasn'tworked out. The Potomac dies somewhere up
there in Pennsylvania. Right. Well, this has been terrific. I also
(41:36):
would have to say that I dothink it was George Washington who picked pil
Enfant and shared his vision of thegrand avenues in this beautiful city which it
has become. Of course, I'ma Washingtonians, I'm biased, but he
shared that vision. He had amuch bigger vision for this city. Then
let's say Thomas Jefferson and so hewas a bigger than life personality, and
(42:02):
the beauty of today is that you'vehelped us share that vision, animate that
individual in a way that we canall appreciate and respect. It's been a
delight, and we could pick noone better than you to help us understand
George Washington and our founding fathers andhow it was an exciting and unique part
(42:24):
of world history and probably the ultimatemoment in American history. Joseph Ellas,
you've been terrific, and I thinkyou know we have a habit of looking
at George Washington only as this figure, this who sits on a monument like
as against someone who was flesh andblood, and without a doubt he was
(42:49):
in many ways the defining founding father, and I think you reinforced that because
he had a blank slate with theConstitution in terms of what one does as
a president, and he gave purposeto it, a process to it,
a cabinet, and most of all, a respect for the people will that
(43:10):
we would be a democratic, republicansystem of government. And therefore he surrendered
office after two terms. Thank youso much. I don't think everyone appreciates
that in the way they should andyou have helped us understand that oh so
much better. Thank you, Josephellis my pleasure. This episode was edited
(43:37):
by Beywolf, Rockland, Roosevelt Heine, and Lisa Shudy of Two Squared Media
Productions. Special thanks to fulk Diversityfor ensuring purposeful conversations when reflecting on our
complex history and basking strategies for engagingour stakeholder commune unity. Thanks as well
(44:01):
to Joy Ford Austin, Jody Sumuda, and Amy Anthony at the Institute of
Politics, Policy and History. Weare grateful to the Kellogg Foundation for their
generous support of this Bounding Father's Legacyseries. Be sure to subscribe wherever you
(44:22):
listen to podcasts.
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