In episode six of the Founding Fathers' Legacy Series, Former Washington D.C Mayor Sharon Pratt dives into the life of Thomas Jefferson. Of all the founding fathers, he stood out as perhaps the most controversial and the most confounding. In this episode, she speaks with Professor Robert MacDonald about the complicated and powerful impact of the third president on our founding and our early years as a nation. Professor MacDonald discusses how Jefferson was unique among the Founding Fathers, what his greatest influences were, and Jefferson's bitter relationship with John Adams. They also discuss Jefferson's complicated relationship with slavery and how the man who wrote the words “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” did not provide liberty to the enslaved children he fathered with Sally Hemmings until they became adults. While we can see his limitations, we can also look to him for inspiration.
Professor Robert MacDonald teaches history at the United States Military Academy at West Point. He is the author of multiple books on Thomas Jefferson, including "Confounding Father: Thomas Jefferson’s Image in His Own Time" and "Thomas Jefferson’s Lives: Biographers and the Battle for History."
Join us in the next episode when we speak with Gayle Jessup White, a descendant of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, as we explore Jefferson through the prism of America’s racial divide.
Professor Robert MacDonald teaches history at the United States Military Academy at West Point. He is the author of multiple books on Thomas Jefferson, including "Confounding Father: Thomas Jefferson’s Image in His Own Time" and "Thomas Jefferson’s Lives: Biographers and the Battle for History."
Join us in the next episode when we speak with Gayle Jessup White, a descendant of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, as we explore Jefferson through the prism of America’s racial divide.
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Hi, I'm Sharon Pratt, andI'm the founding director of the Institute of
Politics, Policy and History, alsoknown as ipp AN. IPPH is hosting
a series known as the Founding Father'sLegacy Series, where we examined the three
founding fathers, Madison, Jefferson,and Washington, who were pivotal to establishing
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the nation's capital in the south alongthe banks of the Potomac now known as
Washington, DC. Today, we'revery fortunate to have with us Professor Robert
McDonell, who is quite the experton Thomas Jefferson. He's a distinguished historian
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who was educated at the University ofVirginia, Oxford University, and the University
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.Professor McDonnell really examines the many dimensions of
Thomas Jefferson, who is just aman of extraordinary accomplishments. Those accomplishments included,
of course most of us know,establishing the University of Virginia, but
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also he established West Point, theUS Military Academy, not so much because
of his enthusiasm about a standing military, but his enthusiasm about studying the sciences.
Professor McDonnell has written many books aboutJefferson, including Confounding Father, and
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he also speaks of his ideology andhis view of government that often resulted as
some pretty bitter battles with John Adams, who, interestingly enough, both of
these distinguished Founding fathers died within hoursof each other, exactly fifty years on
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the date of the Declaration of Independence. They both died on July fourth.
So we are really honored and pleasedto have with us today, Professor Robert
McDonald. Professor McDonald, you've donesuch wonderful scholarship regarding Thomas Jefferson, so
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we really welcome the chance to sortof harvest your insights as we look forward
to exploring his life more fully.In fact, I guess the first question
would be, how is it andwhy is it you became so intrigued with
Thomas Jefferson. Wow, that's aninteresting question. I guess it results from
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the fact that I was an undergraduateat the University of Virginia, which is
one of the schools that Thomas Jeffersonestablished. I teach now at the United
States Military Academy, which as presidenthe established in eighteen o two in Charlesville.
At the University of Virginia. Imean, it sort of feels like
Thomas Jefferson is everywhere. He designedthe original buildings. They're a number of
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statues in his honor. Many thingsare named after him. You see jefferson
quotes inscribed in the walls, andit's about five miles from his house Monicello,
just up the road. And itstruck me that in many respects,
Thomas Jefferson is in some ways sortof a symbol for America. And maybe
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more than that. I mean,you know, he is perhaps most famous
for the most famous sentence of theDeclaration of Independence. You know, we
hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,
that they're endowed by their creator withcertain inalienable rights, that among these are
life, liberty in the pursuit ofhappiness. And then there's a semi colon
that to secure these rights, governmentsare instituted among men, deriving their just
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powers from the consent of the government. And that's really the twin test of
legitimacy in America. A legitimate governmentprotects individual rights, and it relies upon
representative democracy to figure out how toprotect those individual rights. And so Jefferson
destruct me as being endlessly fascinating,not only as a political thinker, but
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as an architect, as a farmer, as a slaveholder, as a man
who in many respects embodies many ofthe contradictions that are inherent in the birth
of the United States. So Ifelt that by studying Thomas Jefferson, I
would be opening a really broad windowinto some of the key stories of America's
past. So do you find himto be unique? Among the founding fathers?
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They were really a great many whowere inspired, brilliant leaders. Certainly
George Washington would be one among them. But do you find him to be
unique? Because others have also notas many, but all this have also
said, he is so emblematic ofthe United States, probably the most emblematic
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of who we are as a nation. And the interesting thing for me,
and I'm supposed to be asking aquestion, how when Abraham Lincoln was trying
to find the right words to holdthe nation together, he turned to Thomas
Jefferson. Absolutely, yeah, Imean it's it's it's certainly true that he
was unique. All people are unique. He was uniquely a polymath in that
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you know, he has been describedas the American Leonardo. His interests.
You know, they spanned wide andthey went deep. While he was President
of the United States, he wasalso president of the American Philosophical Society,
which still exists but at the timewas America's premier scientific organization. I mean,
he was a scholar, he wasa thinker, he was a builder.
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He was you know, a founder, a co founder of our nation.
He wrote laws and constitutions, Hecollected what for a while was the
new world's largest library at his myJello, I mean, you know,
so it's he is in some waysbeyond compare. But of course, I
think America is truly blessed that alot of its founders lent different strengths to
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the project of the American founding.You know, Madison, of course,
is the father of our constitution.With John Adams, Jefferson was sort of
the dynamic duo in behalf of independence. You know, Jefferson was the pen
of independence. John Adams was themouth of independence, you know, for
vociferously lobbying for it on the floorof Congress. George Washington, of course,
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is the sword of independence. Andyou know to Washington we owe so
much and including something that we takefor granted, which is that our political
leaders and our military leaders serve atthe pleasure of the people and their elected
representatives. And you know, whenwhen the war is over, George Washington
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resigned. You know, when hissecond presidential term came to a conclusion,
Washington retired to Mount Vernon. Andyou know, the Constitution at that point
didn't require that president served a maximumof two terms. He was reelectable.
He could have been reelected had hebeen elected for a third term, and
had he wanted one, he certainlywould have been elected to it. He
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would have established a very different precedentfor the presidency because unfortunately he died in
December of seventeen ninety nine, sohe would have died in office, establishing
perhaps that presidents serve for life.So Washington, in many ways put an
exclamation mark on the end of thestatement that in America, the government serves
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the people and not the other wayaround. We entrust our leaders with power,
but that power belongs to us andultimately will be returned to us,
and Washington certainly did that. Onequick story. The American portrait painter Benjamin
West was in the early seventeen eightiesand seventeen eighty two I believe, actually
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painting portraits of members of the Britishroyal family. And according to his memoir,
George the third, the King ofEngland, asked him if the rumor
was true. George said he hadheard that, if you know, the
Americans end up winning this war,Washington plan to return to Mount Vernon and
retire as commander in chief of thearmy, unlike just about every other revolutionary
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leader in history, right, AndBenjamin Was said, you know, yes,
sire, that is what I've heard. And Washington, you know,
was I guess so well regarded evenby the King of England that George the
third said, well, if hedoes that, then truly he is the
greatest man of the age. Andthat's exactly what Washington did. Yeah,
yeah, Well, I love thesong in Hamilton when they explained that he
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was going to he'sa Can he dothat? Can he leave with King George
the third? So what do youthink was the greatest influence in Jefferson's life?
I mean, what made him thisoutsize personality? Well, I think
in some ways, timing is everything. Had Jefferson been born in a different
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era, if he had been amember of a different generation, he would
have not had the opportunity to actso creatively in shaping you know, the
American Republic and to the Commonwealth ofVirginia, you know, by proposing so
many different laws and contributing to youknow, constitutionalism within Virginia and within the
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United States. I mean, itwas this moment of profound instability and creative
destruction. You know, we hadbeen colonies of the king, and now
we were declaring ourselves free and independentrepublics. And so, you know,
after the Declaration of Independence was ratified, both Jefferson and John Adams, I
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think, thought that the more importantbusiness was not going to be in Philadelphia,
where the Continal Congress was convened.It was going to be in the
new state capitals, Boston and Williamsburg. And you know, Jeffers went back
to Virginia and proposed a number ofdifferent reforms that were designed to republicanize the
laws of Virginia and bring about asociety that, you know, more fully
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and more faithfully upheld the principles thatAmericans ascribed to when they ratified the Declaration
of Independence. His aversion to astrong central government was that influenced by his
experience in France. I mean,you know, he had a real aversion
to it. I mean, obviouslythat was the beginning of the Democratic Republican
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Party, and a real opposition toWashington and Adams and clearly Hamilton, who
were federalists. And I guess Washingtonnot a necessity saying, look, I
need some authority to make things happen, whereas Jefferson was terrified of the United
States becoming all that it had objectedto. Would I would say that Jefferson's
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aversion into an overly strong central governmentsprings from the American Revolution, not the
French Revolution. And I would saythat, you know, all of the
founders, whether they called themselves JeffersonianRepublicans or whether they called themselves federalists,
existed on a spectrum. And noneof them were anarchists, and none of
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them were totalitarians. You know,obviously they were all sort of looking for
a Goldilocks government that had, youknow, just the right amount of power.
So Jefferson in the seventeen eighties wouldhave been called a federalist because like
you know, his chief political allyJames Madison, and like Hamilton, and
like Washington, he supported the ratificationof this new Constitution, which would replace
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the Articles of Confederation. So inthe seventeen eighties, Jefferson agreed that government
under the Articles was too weak.You know, it essentially lacked the capacity
to force the states to do anythingthat they didn't want to do. And
a government that lacks the ability tocoerce, frankly, is just not a
government. If people would do thingsvoluntarily, there's no reason for government.
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So Jefferson wanted a more muscular nationalgovernment. He thought that during the course
of the War for Independence, theinability of the Continental Congress to adequately provide
for the needs of the Continental Army, and in the aftermath of the War
for Independence, the inadequacy of thegovernment in paying off America's debts illustrated quite
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ably that, you know, somethingmore was needed, But the question really
was how much more? And JeffersonMadison thought that the Constitution as ratified was
nicely sufficient in creating a central governmentthat would allow America to speak with one
voice on the world stage and wouldensure the upholding of contracts between the states
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and free trade between the states.But on all internal matters, they believed
that the states should be able togovern themselves. Essentially because during the American
Revolution, that was the key constitutionalquestion, you know, in the seventeen
sixties and the seventeen seventies, whenthe British Parliament began to impose upon Americans
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taxes and restrictions, you know,they claimed that this was taxation without representation.
They had no elected representatives in Parliament. They believed that Parliament had the
ability to govern the empire, butreally that its authority ended at the water's
edge, and that if Virginians orPennsylvanians or New Yorkers were going to be
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taxed, then they were going tobe taxed by the representatives that they had
elected to their own mini parliaments,their own state legislatures. So I think,
you know that when we see Hamiltonand Jefferson coming into ideological conflict in
the seventeen nineties, I think Jeffersonfears that Alexander Hamilton is a counter revolutionary,
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that he's betraying the principles of theAmerican Revolution, that he's even a
crypto monarchist who wants America to becomea satellite of Great Britain again. And
Hamilton, for his part, ofcourse, you know, he sees the
world in somewhat different terms. He'sthinking less about the American Revolution. I
think he is thinking about the FrenchRevolution. My Hamilton fears that Jefferson and
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the Jeffersonian Republicans are not authentic Americanrevolutionaries, but instead that they are radical,
militant French revolutionaries. Jefferson was calleda jacobin, he was called an
atheist. That the president of YaleUniversity in seventeen eighty eight gave a sermon
in which he said that if Jeffersonwere to be elected, the Bible will
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be cast into a bonfire, childrenwill be wheedled or terrified into seeing heretical
hymns, and all of our wivesand daughters will be made victims of legal
prostitution. And I mean, it'sa very outlandish series of claims, but
things like that happened in revolutionary France, you know, which had its reign
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of terror and had its very militantphases. And Jefferson, of course was
present in France as our ambassador thereat the very very hopeful beginning of the
French Revolution. You know, hereturned to the United States when Washington was
inaugurated and called him to serve asour first secretary of State. But I
think he sort of has that associationwith France, And certainly Thomas Jefferson is
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optimistic, probably for longer than heshould have been, that you know,
the French Revolution might right itself andmight actually succeed in creating a nation that
you truly did support liberty and fraternityand equality. The relationship that Jefferson had
with Adams eventually became a rather bitterrelationship, even though ultimately over the longer
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term, you know that they cameto appreciate the fact that they'd lived through
so much together. Why did thatbitterness? Where was it there? His
angst about the direction that he thoughtAdams would take the country, And you
know what was the source of that? That that bitterness almost I think,
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I mean certainly the source was politics, some things that maybe they should have
been able to see coming from amile away, and then other things that
I think took them by surprise.So in I believe seventeen ninety one,
Thomas Payne published the first volume ofhis book, The Rights of Man,
and it was published in Europe,but through James Madison, Jefferson received a
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copy and Madison asked Jefferson if youcould send it to a Philadelphia printer who
was going to use it as thebasis for an American edition. So when
Jefferson wrote to the printer, heattached a note, I think, just
to sort of, you know,say hello and explain how he had come
into possession of the volume, andhe wrote, it's it's nice to see
that the standard of common sense willbe used to counter the heresies that have
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risen up among us. And thatnote was used by the public, sure
as a blurb. They didn't havethat word, but that's what it was.
It was, you know, anendorsement by Jefferson with his name attached
to it on the frontist piece,the first page of this volume. And
Madison and Jefferson did not anticipate thatAdams and many others would read it as
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an assault on John Adams, becauseJohn Adams had just published a book on
constitutionalism called Discourses on de Villa,and it had been attacked by many as
being monarchical, and so people thoughtthat when Jefferson was referring to the heresies
that have sprung up among us,he was referring to this work of John
Adams. So that really starts offthe partisan divide and John Quincy Adams,
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Adams's son begins to pick up hispen and he writes a newspaper op eds,
you know, opinion pieces that aresigned with pseudonyms. But I think
a lot of people figured it wasprobably John Quincy Adams attacking Thomas Jefferson.
Hamilton joined in the fray and startedwriting piece is attacking Thomas Jefferson, and
then Jeffersonian newspapers were created when peoplelike James Madison picked up his pen at
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Jefferson's urging, Jefferson wrote to JamesMadison, wants, you know, for
God's sake, dear sir, pickup your pen and Tara Hamilton to pieces
in the face of the public.So they were battling it out, certainly
with words, all within the contextof these policy proposals that Hamilton had put
forth as Washington Secretary of the Treasury, calling for a national bank and the
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funding and assumption of the state's revolutionarywar debts. Well, you know,
if people would look at it ina different way, some would argue that
we're not for Hamilton's vision, we'dhave we would not have quote unquote the
capitalist system that we have today atthe time, though it would seem you
know, it just seems that ThomasJefferson was a favorite of the American people.
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They really liked him. He hadmore popularity, enjoyed more other than
George Washington. So it would seemis that a fair characterization? Oh,
I think that is very much.I mean, he you know, we
should note he was very controversial.Some people loved him, other people hated
him. He was revered, hewas reviled. But he was elected an
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eighteen hundred on a well spring ofpublic support. I think important because under
the presidency of John Adams it seemedas if the Federalists began to fulfill some
of the most dire prophecies that JeffersonianRepublicans had made earlier in the decade,
maybe most chillingly. Adams in seventeenninety eight signed this Edition Act, you
know, which ended up with thejailing of about two dozen newspaper editors for
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writing pieces and publishing pieces that werecritical of his administration. And you know,
the first Amendment was only seven yearsold, that had been ratified in
seventeen ninety one. What was itabout, you know, the words Congress
shall make no law. That theAdams administration did not understand, and so
Jefferson was elected in eighteen hundreds.Of course, we know that there was
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the electoral college high with Aaron Burrhis vice presidential running made. The Constitution
when it was written did not anticipatepolitical parties, and in fact, the
people at the Constitutional Convention feared,I think that every state would try to
elevate their own favorite son, andso to try to force them to think
beyond their own borders, they gaveeach presidential elector two votes, and the
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stipulation was that at least one hadto be cast for someone who was not
from the elector's home state, andthat these second votes would result in a
short list of people of truly nationalcharacter who then the Congress would, you
know, sort through and from amongthe top electro vote getters, that one
would be selected president. Well,we quickly enter into this sort of partisan
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system, and there's a Federalist ticket, and there's a Republican ticket, and
the Republicans are so disciplined in theelection of eighteen hundred that each and every
Republican elector votes for both Thomas Jeffersonand Aaron Burr. You know, one
of them probably should have thrown hisvote out. He should have voted for
George Washington or James Madison or youknow, John Jay whomever. But instead
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there's a tie, And so Congressis going to choose between Jefferson and Burr.
And the Congress that was going tomake that choice was not the freshly
elected Congress which would that which hadnot yet been seated, but the Federalist
controlled Congress that had been elected inseventeen ninety eight. And of course,
Federalists had been saying so many badthings about Thomas Jefferson for so long.
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Anyone would be better than him,they thought, and many even dreamed that
Aaron Burr would owe them if theymade him president, that he would be
their man and under their influence,and it's better than the end of a
movie. Who should swoop in andconvinced the Federalists not to do this but
instead to make Thomas Jefferson president.But Alexander Hamilton himself, you know,
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Jefferson's arch nemesis, had a letterwriting campaign. He wrote to members of
Congress, including maybe most importantly,the single congressman from Delaware, a man
named James Baird. He was theDelaware delegation, and the members of Congress
didn't vote as individuals. They votedas state delegations, and each state delegation
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had had an equal vote, andwho would be the next president. So
you know, James Barett had asmany votes as all the congressmen of Pennsylvania
or Virginia or New York combined one. And Hamilton wrote to James Barrett.
He said, you know, ifwe elect Burr, we will be held
responsible for the actions of Burr,even though we won't be able to control
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him, will be blamed for him. If we acquiesced to the election of
Jefferson, we will remain without staying. And then he said one thing more.
While Jefferson has principles with which wedisagree, Aaron Burr has no principles,
and so Jefferson. Thanks to Hamilton'spresident and as president, the Bible
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isn't cast into a bond fire,children aren't wheedled or terrified into singing heretical
hands. You know, none ofthe dire predictions came true. Jefferson repealed
all internal taxes. Jefferson was ableto double the size of the United States
peacefully, the acquisition of Louisiana.And by the time you get to the
election of eighteen o four, heis reelected in a landslide, so that
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even Massachusetts, the Federalist death star, you know, cast electoral votes in
Jefferson's favor. That's a you know, I don't I'm not aware of that
story. I mean, I knewthat there was a tie, but that's
quite a story. I should haveread it. I guess I missed some
of your books. Well, youknow, it say something really great about
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Alexander Hamilton, And I think thisis a trait that we can ascribe to
just about every single one of ourleading American revolutionaries. It wasn't all about
them. They really did want whatwas best for the country. They had
different opinions about what was best forthe country, but deep down they all
really did want what was best forAmerica. And you know, sure they
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had their ambitions. Sure, likelike any of us, you know,
they could fall victim to vanity,But deep down they knew that this was
a fragile experiment that they were undertaking. They understood that the United States,
in which they had had an importantpart in helping to create, was their
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chief legacy, and its success wastheir number one ambition. Jefferson dies in
eighteen twenty six, and he andAdam's son the same day, which is
very profound. July fourth. Doyou think he felt the experiment was working
when he died. I think hedid. I mean, he wrote this
amazing letter to Roger Weightman, youknow, the mayor of Washington, DC.
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At the time. Weightman was organizinga fiftieth anniversary celebration of Independence in
Washington, which at that point,for about twenty five years had been the
nation's capital, and he invited Jeffersonand all the remaining living signers of the
Declaration and all the living former presidents, and Jefferson, sadly, by the
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time he received this letter, knewthat his days were numbered. In the
spring of eighteen twenty six, hejoked that he had one foot in the
grave and the other uplifted to follow. And indeed, by the end of
June he was on his deathbed,and the people who were tending to him
included his grandson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, his grandson in law, a west
Point grad named, sorry, awest Point dropout, I should say,
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named Nicholas P. Trist and hismedical doctor, the professor of medicine at
the University of Virginia, a mannamed doctor Robbie Dunglasson, and he had
already expressed to many people, youknow, as his days were waning,
that his dying wish was to liveto see the fourth of July. And
as his health faded and it becameclear that not only his days but his
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hours were numbered, he would fallin and out of consciousness. And you
know, there's an account where hewakes up on the night of July first,
and he turns to Nicholas Trist andhe says, is it the fourth?
And Nicholas trist has to disappoint himand tell him it's not not yet.
And then again on the second heasked, is it the fourth?
And again the answer is no.And then on the night of July third,
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eighteen twenty six, at about elevenpm, and it seemed like Jefferson
could go at any moment, hiseyes, you know, peaked open and
he whispers, almost inaudibly, isit the fourth? And Nicholas Tryst,
who I guess had not spent enoughtime under the West Point Honor code,
just couldn't bear to let the oldman down. And he told him,
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yes, yes it is. Henodded that it was the fourth of July,
and according to his account, Jefferson, you know, had this big
broad smile on his face, anda lot of people have written that those
were Jefferson's last words. Is itthe fourth But if you read doctor dun
Listens account of the evening, accordingto doctor Dunglasson, he then offered Jefferson
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another dose of medication, and Jefferson, having been assured that the fourth of
July had arrived, said no,doctor, nothing more. And Jefferson,
this would be a terrible story.Of course, if Jefferson right then,
right there on July third, hedidn't. He lived. He lived until
noon the next day, dying fiftyyears to the hour after the Continental Congress's
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ratification of the decks. Ordinary thatboth of them, you know, it
is amazing this. You have tosay that the stars were aligned, or
we are very special nations. JohnAdams, you know, died around five
pm that day, and you knowhis words, his last words, according
to some sources, not knowing whathad happened down in Virginia where Thomas Jefferson
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still survives. And you know,literally Adams was wrong, but but maybe
figuratively, in the best of senses, he was right. You know,
the of the Declaration of Independence dosurvive, and you know that's why Lincoln
was able to invoke them. That'swhy Martin Luther King was able to invoke
them. You know, we havealways used the Declaration of Independence as a
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touchstone for our principles and as wehave tried to you know, perfect our
union and live according to our bestideals. You know, throughout the past
two hundred and fifty years, youknow, it has been our north star,
and it has you know, providedus with a guide, you know,
for what a legitimate and good anddecent and noble government should be and
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to that point, and I certainlyagree it's certainly for me it is the
north star. It does, andit's what we always reference when we speak
of the promise of this nation.Do you think though, that you know,
Jefferson would have been able to accommodatea changing nation such as we have
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now. I mean, would hehave been able to intellectually one thing?
So, but you have to askcould he have done that? Well,
you know we're asking a lot fora man from a man who was born
in seventeen forty three, but youknow, the indications are pretty strong in
his favor given that. You know, he was a person who was oftentimes
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calling, oftentimes unsuccessfully, you know, for measures to bring about things like
the end of slavery. I mean, his very first public act as a
member of the House of Burgesses inseventeen sixty nine was to co sponsor a
bill that would have made it wouldhave made it legal for Virginians to voluntarily
free their slaves. It was youcould sell slaves, but you could not
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liberate them. That was against thelaw. And Jefferson's proposal in seventeen sixty
nine was shouted down and he wascharacterized as an enemy of Virginia. There
was such hostility to the idea ofa free black people. Again, when
Jefferson is governor of Virginia in theseventeen seventies, he floats an idea that
Virginia would adopt a gradual emancipation bill. You know, a number of states
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in the immediate aftermath of the AmericanRevolution either abolished slavery, like Massachusetts and
Vermont not yet a state, butit's governing itself like one, and it
has a seventeen seventy seven constitution thatforbids slavery. And then you have states
like Rhode Island in Connecticut, whichin seventeen eighty four embraced gradual emancipation plans.
Even before Rhode Island in Connecticut,Jefferson is proposing one for Virginia,
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but again it shouted down. Andthen as a member of Congress under the
Articles of Confederation in seventeen eighty four, Jefferson proposes an ordinance that would govern
all the land that was now recognizedas part of the United States via the
seventeen eighty three Treaty of Paris endingthe Revolutionary War. And you know,
this is all the land west ofthe Appalachian Mountains and east of the Mississippi
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River, all the land from theGreat Lakes, almost all the way down
to the Gulf of Mexico. Andaccording to Jefferson's draft of this ordinance,
none of this land would be opento slavery. And this failed by one
vote. And so if this hadpassed, it was really amazing when you
think about it, I mean,as a fork in the road of American
history. If Jefferson's proposal had passed, slavery would not have existed in Kentucky,
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in Tennessee, in Alabama, inMississippi, presumably not in Louisiana or
Missouri or Texas. I mean,it would have been a whole different world.
And then and then finally, asPresident Thomas Jefferson, at the earliest
allowable moment that the Constitution provided for, there was an agreement that nothing could
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be done for twenty years. Butin an eighteen oh way, Thomas Jefferson
signed a law ending the importation ofenslaved Africans into the United States. So,
you know, no more people aregoing to be kidnapped in Africa and
legally brought to the United States inchains. So he proposes a lot,
you know, he does a lot. Certainly, he's an eighteenth century man
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with an eighteenth century mind. Butbut I think I think it's just worth
pointing out that if anyone from hisgeneration, you know, can be imagined
to look at the society that wehave created and not his head in approval,
although perhaps astonishment of you know,our very diverse population. I think,
(32:23):
you know, Jefferson would have viewedthis as a fulfillment of his dreams,
you know, well beyond his wildestdreams. Well that is no,
I mean, I know that hedid make all of those initiatives and then
and I think that's a point welltaken. But of course you have to
applaud George Washington, who actually didsomething, you know, um, And
(32:46):
I think for George Washing, whichit's sort of segues to my last question,
I think George Washington came to havea different appreciation for this issue because
of his experience in the war peoplehe had to turn to who that humanized
it in a way that it didn'tbefore. And so it became a much
(33:07):
more personal commitment on his part.And the interesting thing is, and the
average utterly very surprise because Jefferson didnot serve as a military man, and
yet he was the one who signedinto law West Point the military Academy.
And but but what was the impetusfor that? Because he didn't even believe
(33:30):
in a standing military at all,didn't he Well again it's a it's a
matter of degree. He didn't,you know, want a large standing army.
Traditionally, standing armies had always beenthreats to liberty, you know,
when you think about you know,military dictatorships around the world, or you
think about you know, Caesar crossingthe Rubicon or Cromwell, you know,
overthrowing the king and establishing himself asLord Protector of England. You know,
(33:53):
the military had been a source ofdanger for people who loved freedom. So
you know, we needed a militarythat was strong enough to protect the interests
of the United States and the libertyof the United States, but not so
strong that it would pose a threatto them. I mean, that's the
essential problem that Washington, you know, was given when he was appointed as
commander in chief of the Continental Army. And it's not an easy one.
(34:15):
I mean, how do you createan army strong enough to defeat the military
of the world's greatest superpower, whichis most of the time, but not
so strong as to undermine the libertiesfor which you're fighting in the first place.
And you know, I think that'swhy Washington's decision to resign at the
end of the war is such anoble one. And Washington's decision to,
(34:37):
you know, through his will,free all of his slaves was made possible.
I think, I think you're exactlyright that Washington came to appreciate African
Americans as real people in part ofthe service in the Continal Army. At
first, he resisted the idea ofallowing black people to serve in the Continal
(34:58):
Army. Finally he acquiesced to it. And we don't really appreciate this because,
of course, you know, themodern military was desegregated under President Truman,
but we had an integrated military atthe time of the American Revolution.
And at Valley Forge and the hutsthat the soldiers constructed, there were huts
where, you know, black peopleand white people were living side by side
(35:20):
one another, and fighting side byside one another, and dying side by
side one another, and and andso Washington. You know who died.
I think it's fair to say therichest man in all of Virginia had the
financial wherewithal to free his slaves,Jefferson. Unfortunately, by the time you
know, he died, was somuch in debt debts that he had inherited
(35:42):
from his father in law, debtsthat he was on the hook for it
because people he co signed for themselveswent bankrupt. And that's that he himself
was responsible for. Because, asI said, he at the largest library
in the Western hemisphere. I mean, he knew how to spend some money
when he saw things that he liked. His creditors really owned his slaves and
(36:02):
the rest of his property I meanthey were collateral. So Jefferson sadly,
you know, declared independence for thecountry, but could not really declare independence
for himself, and at the endof his life had to die realizing that
you know, all that he owned, you know, his house, his
(36:23):
furniture, his books, and youknow, these human beings, some of
whom he was related to, perhapsas you know their father, but certainly
as as their kinsman. Because ofcourse his wife Martha, her father was
the father of Sally Hemmings, youknow, who was enslaved at at Monticello.
(36:45):
You know, all all of thesethese people would go for sale on
the auction block, not Sally Hemmings. She's you know, given her time,
and her children are allowed to sortof unofficially go free. But legally
there's very that Jefferson could have done, you know, to liberate anyone.
You know, it's very sad.Is there anything in particular you think we
(37:07):
should reflect upon about Thomas Jefferson,Because he's, like you say, he's
he's a man that reviled and revered. He's the most to me, the
most complicated of all the founding fathers. And of course the contradiction of the
man who is the author of life, liberty and something as audacious as the
(37:29):
pursuit of happiness. I love thatwell who who else would say it?
Right? But but also a manwho had had more enslaved people than anyone
else. So is there something weshould pull from the life experience of Thomas
Jefferson and the profound impact he hadon this country that you think we don't
(37:50):
reflect upon enough? I would saytwo things. I mean, I think
that one thing that you know,people can always use, but maybe maybe
you know, we as a peoplecould have specially used now is humility.
You know, Thomas Jefferson was agenius. Thomas Jefferson had the ability to,
you know, at least take partin the shaping of a state and
(38:10):
a nation. You know, Jeffersoncouldn't always get his way, he wasn't
always right, but he did alwaystry to do right. I think it's
fair to say that. And youknow, we should understand that two hundred
and fifty years from now, thereare going to be people who look back
on us, and they will criticizeus for things, maybe for things that
(38:35):
we deserve to be criticized for,maybe for things that we don't even imagine.
Will be criticized for every new generationreinvents itself and reapplies the principles of
the Declaration of Independence, you know, to its own time. In some
ways they're unchanging and unchangeable. Inother ways they're amazingly adaptable. And I
(38:57):
think the second thing I'd want toto share with people is that Jefferson understood
this himself. His last real testamentto his life on earth was he wrote
the epitaph for his tombstone. Soif you go down to Monticello and you
visit the Jefferson family graveyard, you'llyou'll see it and it says, here
(39:19):
was buried Thomas Jefferson, author ofthe Declaration of American Independence, of the
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, andfather of the University of Virginia. And
Jefferson wrote in his instructions for histombstone that he wanted to be remembered by
those words and not a word more. And it's so incredible when you think
about it, like what he leavesout. You know, he have mentioned
(39:40):
being a member of the House ofBurgess's the Continental Congress. He could have
mentioned being our ambassador to France.He could have mentioned being our first Secretary
of State, our second vice president, our third president. He could have
mentioned that he was governor of Virginia, that he had, you know,
a purchased Louisiana. There were somany things he could have mentioned. But
why those three things? I mean, I think what Jefferson was trying to
(40:04):
communicate the Declaration of Independence, youknow, sort of freeze Americans to choose
their own path, to choose theirown destiny. The Virginia Statute for Religious
Freedom disestablished the Anglican Church as theofficial Church of Virginia. That you know,
according to the laws on the books, people had to attend and people
had to financially support. He createda free marketplace for faith in Virginia that
(40:29):
the University of Virginia was designed tofree the mind and allow people, you
know, to think about how theywere going to contribute, you know,
to this growing nation, how theycould you contribute to a more perfect union.
And so I think the point ofhis tombstone is that his greatness doesn't
come from the powers that people gaveto him. His greatness comes from the
(40:52):
powers that he restored to the people. And in other words, it's great
to think about Thomas Jefferson it's greatto think about the American founding. We
have a lot to learn from thosepeople. We have a lot to learn
from their example. We have alot to learn from that generation. But
we should really think about ourselves andhow we're going to make ourselves better,
and how we're going to make ourcountry better. And you know, we
(41:14):
should certainly look to them for inspiration, but you know, us plowing forward
and creating our own path into thefuture. I think it's fair to say
that's exactly what Thomas Jefferson would havewanted. Well, we really can't thank
professor McDonald enough. He really isexpert and conversant with the life of Thomas
(41:38):
Jefferson, and it was a longlife and a fascinating life. I mean,
here's a man who was our firstSecretary of State, second vice president,
third president, the author of theUniversity of Virginia, the Military Academy,
and of course the author of theDeclaration of Independence. Professor McDonald speaks
(41:59):
to all of those dimensions and hisfascinating life and his great contribution to who
we are today here in America.We can't thank him enough. This episode
was edited by Baywulf Rockland Roosevelt Heineand Lisa Chudy of Two Squared Media Productions.
(42:24):
Special thanks to Isabel Dorville for herresearch and production support fulk diversity,
for ensuring purposeful conversations when reflecting onour complex history, and basking strategies for
engaging our stakeholder community. Thanks aswell to joy Ford Austin, Jodi Simuda,
(42:51):
and Amy Anthony at the Institute ofPolitics, Policy and History. We
are grateful to the Kellow Foundation fortheir generous support of this founding father's Legacy
series. Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts.
Hi, I'm Sharon Pratt, andI'm the founding director of the Institute of
Politics, Policy and History, alsoknown as ipp AN. IPPH is hosting
a series known as the Founding Father'sLegacy Series, where we examined the three
founding fathers, Madison, Jefferson,and Washington, who were pivotal to establishing
(00:28):
the nation's capital in the south alongthe banks of the Potomac now known as
Washington, DC. Today, we'revery fortunate to have with us Professor Robert
McDonell, who is quite the experton Thomas Jefferson. He's a distinguished historian
(00:49):
who was educated at the University ofVirginia, Oxford University, and the University
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.Professor McDonnell really examines the many dimensions of
Thomas Jefferson, who is just aman of extraordinary accomplishments. Those accomplishments included,
of course most of us know,establishing the University of Virginia, but
(01:14):
also he established West Point, theUS Military Academy, not so much because
of his enthusiasm about a standing military, but his enthusiasm about studying the sciences.
Professor McDonnell has written many books aboutJefferson, including Confounding Father, and
(01:34):
he also speaks of his ideology andhis view of government that often resulted as
some pretty bitter battles with John Adams, who, interestingly enough, both of
these distinguished Founding fathers died within hoursof each other, exactly fifty years on
(01:55):
the date of the Declaration of Independence. They both died on July fourth.
So we are really honored and pleasedto have with us today, Professor Robert
McDonald. Professor McDonald, you've donesuch wonderful scholarship regarding Thomas Jefferson, so
(02:19):
we really welcome the chance to sortof harvest your insights as we look forward
to exploring his life more fully.In fact, I guess the first question
would be, how is it andwhy is it you became so intrigued with
Thomas Jefferson. Wow, that's aninteresting question. I guess it results from
(02:39):
the fact that I was an undergraduateat the University of Virginia, which is
one of the schools that Thomas Jeffersonestablished. I teach now at the United
States Military Academy, which as presidenthe established in eighteen o two in Charlesville.
At the University of Virginia. Imean, it sort of feels like
Thomas Jefferson is everywhere. He designedthe original buildings. They're a number of
(03:00):
statues in his honor. Many thingsare named after him. You see jefferson
quotes inscribed in the walls, andit's about five miles from his house Monicello,
just up the road. And itstruck me that in many respects,
Thomas Jefferson is in some ways sortof a symbol for America. And maybe
(03:22):
more than that. I mean,you know, he is perhaps most famous
for the most famous sentence of theDeclaration of Independence. You know, we
hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,
that they're endowed by their creator withcertain inalienable rights, that among these are
life, liberty in the pursuit ofhappiness. And then there's a semi colon
that to secure these rights, governmentsare instituted among men, deriving their just
(03:46):
powers from the consent of the government. And that's really the twin test of
legitimacy in America. A legitimate governmentprotects individual rights, and it relies upon
representative democracy to figure out how toprotect those individual rights. And so Jefferson
destruct me as being endlessly fascinating,not only as a political thinker, but
(04:10):
as an architect, as a farmer, as a slaveholder, as a man
who in many respects embodies many ofthe contradictions that are inherent in the birth
of the United States. So Ifelt that by studying Thomas Jefferson, I
would be opening a really broad windowinto some of the key stories of America's
past. So do you find himto be unique? Among the founding fathers?
(04:34):
They were really a great many whowere inspired, brilliant leaders. Certainly
George Washington would be one among them. But do you find him to be
unique? Because others have also notas many, but all this have also
said, he is so emblematic ofthe United States, probably the most emblematic
(04:56):
of who we are as a nation. And the interesting thing for me,
and I'm supposed to be asking aquestion, how when Abraham Lincoln was trying
to find the right words to holdthe nation together, he turned to Thomas
Jefferson. Absolutely, yeah, Imean it's it's it's certainly true that he
was unique. All people are unique. He was uniquely a polymath in that
(05:21):
you know, he has been describedas the American Leonardo. His interests.
You know, they spanned wide andthey went deep. While he was President
of the United States, he wasalso president of the American Philosophical Society,
which still exists but at the timewas America's premier scientific organization. I mean,
he was a scholar, he wasa thinker, he was a builder.
(05:43):
He was you know, a founder, a co founder of our nation.
He wrote laws and constitutions, Hecollected what for a while was the
new world's largest library at his myJello, I mean, you know,
so it's he is in some waysbeyond compare. But of course, I
think America is truly blessed that alot of its founders lent different strengths to
(06:09):
the project of the American founding.You know, Madison, of course,
is the father of our constitution.With John Adams, Jefferson was sort of
the dynamic duo in behalf of independence. You know, Jefferson was the pen
of independence. John Adams was themouth of independence, you know, for
vociferously lobbying for it on the floorof Congress. George Washington, of course,
(06:32):
is the sword of independence. Andyou know to Washington we owe so
much and including something that we takefor granted, which is that our political
leaders and our military leaders serve atthe pleasure of the people and their elected
representatives. And you know, whenwhen the war is over, George Washington
(06:53):
resigned. You know, when hissecond presidential term came to a conclusion,
Washington retired to Mount Vernon. Andyou know, the Constitution at that point
didn't require that president served a maximumof two terms. He was reelectable.
He could have been reelected had hebeen elected for a third term, and
had he wanted one, he certainlywould have been elected to it. He
(07:14):
would have established a very different precedentfor the presidency because unfortunately he died in
December of seventeen ninety nine, sohe would have died in office, establishing
perhaps that presidents serve for life.So Washington, in many ways put an
exclamation mark on the end of thestatement that in America, the government serves
(07:34):
the people and not the other wayaround. We entrust our leaders with power,
but that power belongs to us andultimately will be returned to us,
and Washington certainly did that. Onequick story. The American portrait painter Benjamin
West was in the early seventeen eightiesand seventeen eighty two I believe, actually
(07:56):
painting portraits of members of the Britishroyal family. And according to his memoir,
George the third, the King ofEngland, asked him if the rumor
was true. George said he hadheard that, if you know, the
Americans end up winning this war,Washington plan to return to Mount Vernon and
retire as commander in chief of thearmy, unlike just about every other revolutionary
(08:20):
leader in history, right, AndBenjamin Was said, you know, yes,
sire, that is what I've heard. And Washington, you know,
was I guess so well regarded evenby the King of England that George the
third said, well, if hedoes that, then truly he is the
greatest man of the age. Andthat's exactly what Washington did. Yeah,
yeah, Well, I love thesong in Hamilton when they explained that he
(08:46):
was going to he'sa Can he dothat? Can he leave with King George
the third? So what do youthink was the greatest influence in Jefferson's life?
I mean, what made him thisoutsize personality? Well, I think
in some ways, timing is everything. Had Jefferson been born in a different
(09:07):
era, if he had been amember of a different generation, he would
have not had the opportunity to actso creatively in shaping you know, the
American Republic and to the Commonwealth ofVirginia, you know, by proposing so
many different laws and contributing to youknow, constitutionalism within Virginia and within the
(09:28):
United States. I mean, itwas this moment of profound instability and creative
destruction. You know, we hadbeen colonies of the king, and now
we were declaring ourselves free and independentrepublics. And so, you know,
after the Declaration of Independence was ratified, both Jefferson and John Adams, I
(09:48):
think, thought that the more importantbusiness was not going to be in Philadelphia,
where the Continal Congress was convened.It was going to be in the
new state capitals, Boston and Williamsburg. And you know, Jeffers went back
to Virginia and proposed a number ofdifferent reforms that were designed to republicanize the
laws of Virginia and bring about asociety that, you know, more fully
(10:11):
and more faithfully upheld the principles thatAmericans ascribed to when they ratified the Declaration
of Independence. His aversion to astrong central government was that influenced by his
experience in France. I mean,you know, he had a real aversion
to it. I mean, obviouslythat was the beginning of the Democratic Republican
(10:35):
Party, and a real opposition toWashington and Adams and clearly Hamilton, who
were federalists. And I guess Washingtonnot a necessity saying, look, I
need some authority to make things happen, whereas Jefferson was terrified of the United
States becoming all that it had objectedto. Would I would say that Jefferson's
(10:58):
aversion into an overly strong central governmentsprings from the American Revolution, not the
French Revolution. And I would saythat, you know, all of the
founders, whether they called themselves JeffersonianRepublicans or whether they called themselves federalists,
existed on a spectrum. And noneof them were anarchists, and none of
(11:20):
them were totalitarians. You know,obviously they were all sort of looking for
a Goldilocks government that had, youknow, just the right amount of power.
So Jefferson in the seventeen eighties wouldhave been called a federalist because like
you know, his chief political allyJames Madison, and like Hamilton, and
like Washington, he supported the ratificationof this new Constitution, which would replace
(11:43):
the Articles of Confederation. So inthe seventeen eighties, Jefferson agreed that government
under the Articles was too weak.You know, it essentially lacked the capacity
to force the states to do anythingthat they didn't want to do. And
a government that lacks the ability tocoerce, frankly, is just not a
government. If people would do thingsvoluntarily, there's no reason for government.
(12:03):
So Jefferson wanted a more muscular nationalgovernment. He thought that during the course
of the War for Independence, theinability of the Continental Congress to adequately provide
for the needs of the Continental Army, and in the aftermath of the War
for Independence, the inadequacy of thegovernment in paying off America's debts illustrated quite
(12:24):
ably that, you know, somethingmore was needed, But the question really
was how much more? And JeffersonMadison thought that the Constitution as ratified was
nicely sufficient in creating a central governmentthat would allow America to speak with one
voice on the world stage and wouldensure the upholding of contracts between the states
(12:46):
and free trade between the states.But on all internal matters, they believed
that the states should be able togovern themselves. Essentially because during the American
Revolution, that was the key constitutionalquestion, you know, in the seventeen
sixties and the seventeen seventies, whenthe British Parliament began to impose upon Americans
(13:07):
taxes and restrictions, you know,they claimed that this was taxation without representation.
They had no elected representatives in Parliament. They believed that Parliament had the
ability to govern the empire, butreally that its authority ended at the water's
edge, and that if Virginians orPennsylvanians or New Yorkers were going to be
(13:28):
taxed, then they were going tobe taxed by the representatives that they had
elected to their own mini parliaments,their own state legislatures. So I think,
you know that when we see Hamiltonand Jefferson coming into ideological conflict in
the seventeen nineties, I think Jeffersonfears that Alexander Hamilton is a counter revolutionary,
(13:48):
that he's betraying the principles of theAmerican Revolution, that he's even a
crypto monarchist who wants America to becomea satellite of Great Britain again. And
Hamilton, for his part, ofcourse, you know, he sees the
world in somewhat different terms. He'sthinking less about the American Revolution. I
think he is thinking about the FrenchRevolution. My Hamilton fears that Jefferson and
(14:11):
the Jeffersonian Republicans are not authentic Americanrevolutionaries, but instead that they are radical,
militant French revolutionaries. Jefferson was calleda jacobin, he was called an
atheist. That the president of YaleUniversity in seventeen eighty eight gave a sermon
in which he said that if Jeffersonwere to be elected, the Bible will
(14:33):
be cast into a bonfire, childrenwill be wheedled or terrified into seeing heretical
hymns, and all of our wivesand daughters will be made victims of legal
prostitution. And I mean, it'sa very outlandish series of claims, but
things like that happened in revolutionary France, you know, which had its reign
(14:54):
of terror and had its very militantphases. And Jefferson, of course was
present in France as our ambassador thereat the very very hopeful beginning of the
French Revolution. You know, hereturned to the United States when Washington was
inaugurated and called him to serve asour first secretary of State. But I
think he sort of has that associationwith France, And certainly Thomas Jefferson is
(15:18):
optimistic, probably for longer than heshould have been, that you know,
the French Revolution might right itself andmight actually succeed in creating a nation that
you truly did support liberty and fraternityand equality. The relationship that Jefferson had
with Adams eventually became a rather bitterrelationship, even though ultimately over the longer
(15:43):
term, you know that they cameto appreciate the fact that they'd lived through
so much together. Why did thatbitterness? Where was it there? His
angst about the direction that he thoughtAdams would take the country, And you
know what was the source of that? That that bitterness almost I think,
(16:07):
I mean certainly the source was politics, some things that maybe they should have
been able to see coming from amile away, and then other things that
I think took them by surprise.So in I believe seventeen ninety one,
Thomas Payne published the first volume ofhis book, The Rights of Man,
and it was published in Europe,but through James Madison, Jefferson received a
(16:30):
copy and Madison asked Jefferson if youcould send it to a Philadelphia printer who
was going to use it as thebasis for an American edition. So when
Jefferson wrote to the printer, heattached a note, I think, just
to sort of, you know,say hello and explain how he had come
into possession of the volume, andhe wrote, it's it's nice to see
that the standard of common sense willbe used to counter the heresies that have
(16:56):
risen up among us. And thatnote was used by the public, sure
as a blurb. They didn't havethat word, but that's what it was.
It was, you know, anendorsement by Jefferson with his name attached
to it on the frontist piece,the first page of this volume. And
Madison and Jefferson did not anticipate thatAdams and many others would read it as
(17:18):
an assault on John Adams, becauseJohn Adams had just published a book on
constitutionalism called Discourses on de Villa,and it had been attacked by many as
being monarchical, and so people thoughtthat when Jefferson was referring to the heresies
that have sprung up among us,he was referring to this work of John
Adams. So that really starts offthe partisan divide and John Quincy Adams,
(17:41):
Adams's son begins to pick up hispen and he writes a newspaper op eds,
you know, opinion pieces that aresigned with pseudonyms. But I think
a lot of people figured it wasprobably John Quincy Adams attacking Thomas Jefferson.
Hamilton joined in the fray and startedwriting piece is attacking Thomas Jefferson, and
then Jeffersonian newspapers were created when peoplelike James Madison picked up his pen at
(18:07):
Jefferson's urging, Jefferson wrote to JamesMadison, wants, you know, for
God's sake, dear sir, pickup your pen and Tara Hamilton to pieces
in the face of the public.So they were battling it out, certainly
with words, all within the contextof these policy proposals that Hamilton had put
forth as Washington Secretary of the Treasury, calling for a national bank and the
(18:30):
funding and assumption of the state's revolutionarywar debts. Well, you know,
if people would look at it ina different way, some would argue that
we're not for Hamilton's vision, we'dhave we would not have quote unquote the
capitalist system that we have today atthe time, though it would seem you
know, it just seems that ThomasJefferson was a favorite of the American people.
(18:53):
They really liked him. He hadmore popularity, enjoyed more other than
George Washington. So it would seemis that a fair characterization? Oh,
I think that is very much.I mean, he you know, we
should note he was very controversial.Some people loved him, other people hated
him. He was revered, hewas reviled. But he was elected an
(19:14):
eighteen hundred on a well spring ofpublic support. I think important because under
the presidency of John Adams it seemedas if the Federalists began to fulfill some
of the most dire prophecies that JeffersonianRepublicans had made earlier in the decade,
maybe most chillingly. Adams in seventeenninety eight signed this Edition Act, you
know, which ended up with thejailing of about two dozen newspaper editors for
(19:41):
writing pieces and publishing pieces that werecritical of his administration. And you know,
the first Amendment was only seven yearsold, that had been ratified in
seventeen ninety one. What was itabout, you know, the words Congress
shall make no law. That theAdams administration did not understand, and so
Jefferson was elected in eighteen hundreds.Of course, we know that there was
(20:02):
the electoral college high with Aaron Burrhis vice presidential running made. The Constitution
when it was written did not anticipatepolitical parties, and in fact, the
people at the Constitutional Convention feared,I think that every state would try to
elevate their own favorite son, andso to try to force them to think
beyond their own borders, they gaveeach presidential elector two votes, and the
(20:29):
stipulation was that at least one hadto be cast for someone who was not
from the elector's home state, andthat these second votes would result in a
short list of people of truly nationalcharacter who then the Congress would, you
know, sort through and from amongthe top electro vote getters, that one
would be selected president. Well,we quickly enter into this sort of partisan
(20:52):
system, and there's a Federalist ticket, and there's a Republican ticket, and
the Republicans are so disciplined in theelection of eighteen hundred that each and every
Republican elector votes for both Thomas Jeffersonand Aaron Burr. You know, one
of them probably should have thrown hisvote out. He should have voted for
George Washington or James Madison or youknow, John Jay whomever. But instead
(21:15):
there's a tie, And so Congressis going to choose between Jefferson and Burr.
And the Congress that was going tomake that choice was not the freshly
elected Congress which would that which hadnot yet been seated, but the Federalist
controlled Congress that had been elected inseventeen ninety eight. And of course,
Federalists had been saying so many badthings about Thomas Jefferson for so long.
(21:36):
Anyone would be better than him,they thought, and many even dreamed that
Aaron Burr would owe them if theymade him president, that he would be
their man and under their influence,and it's better than the end of a
movie. Who should swoop in andconvinced the Federalists not to do this but
instead to make Thomas Jefferson president.But Alexander Hamilton himself, you know,
(22:00):
Jefferson's arch nemesis, had a letterwriting campaign. He wrote to members of
Congress, including maybe most importantly,the single congressman from Delaware, a man
named James Baird. He was theDelaware delegation, and the members of Congress
didn't vote as individuals. They votedas state delegations, and each state delegation
(22:21):
had had an equal vote, andwho would be the next president. So
you know, James Barett had asmany votes as all the congressmen of Pennsylvania
or Virginia or New York combined one. And Hamilton wrote to James Barrett.
He said, you know, ifwe elect Burr, we will be held
responsible for the actions of Burr,even though we won't be able to control
(22:42):
him, will be blamed for him. If we acquiesced to the election of
Jefferson, we will remain without staying. And then he said one thing more.
While Jefferson has principles with which wedisagree, Aaron Burr has no principles,
and so Jefferson. Thanks to Hamilton'spresident and as president, the Bible
(23:03):
isn't cast into a bond fire,children aren't wheedled or terrified into singing heretical
hands. You know, none ofthe dire predictions came true. Jefferson repealed
all internal taxes. Jefferson was ableto double the size of the United States
peacefully, the acquisition of Louisiana.And by the time you get to the
election of eighteen o four, heis reelected in a landslide, so that
(23:27):
even Massachusetts, the Federalist death star, you know, cast electoral votes in
Jefferson's favor. That's a you know, I don't I'm not aware of that
story. I mean, I knewthat there was a tie, but that's
quite a story. I should haveread it. I guess I missed some
of your books. Well, youknow, it say something really great about
(23:49):
Alexander Hamilton, And I think thisis a trait that we can ascribe to
just about every single one of ourleading American revolutionaries. It wasn't all about
them. They really did want whatwas best for the country. They had
different opinions about what was best forthe country, but deep down they all
really did want what was best forAmerica. And you know, sure they
(24:12):
had their ambitions. Sure, likelike any of us, you know,
they could fall victim to vanity,But deep down they knew that this was
a fragile experiment that they were undertaking. They understood that the United States,
in which they had had an importantpart in helping to create, was their
(24:33):
chief legacy, and its success wastheir number one ambition. Jefferson dies in
eighteen twenty six, and he andAdam's son the same day, which is
very profound. July fourth. Doyou think he felt the experiment was working
when he died. I think hedid. I mean, he wrote this
amazing letter to Roger Weightman, youknow, the mayor of Washington, DC.
(24:57):
At the time. Weightman was organizinga fiftieth anniversary celebration of Independence in
Washington, which at that point,for about twenty five years had been the
nation's capital, and he invited Jeffersonand all the remaining living signers of the
Declaration and all the living former presidents, and Jefferson, sadly, by the
(25:18):
time he received this letter, knewthat his days were numbered. In the
spring of eighteen twenty six, hejoked that he had one foot in the
grave and the other uplifted to follow. And indeed, by the end of
June he was on his deathbed,and the people who were tending to him
included his grandson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, his grandson in law, a west
Point grad named, sorry, awest Point dropout, I should say,
(25:41):
named Nicholas P. Trist and hismedical doctor, the professor of medicine at
the University of Virginia, a mannamed doctor Robbie Dunglasson, and he had
already expressed to many people, youknow, as his days were waning,
that his dying wish was to liveto see the fourth of July. And
as his health faded and it becameclear that not only his days but his
(26:02):
hours were numbered, he would fallin and out of consciousness. And you
know, there's an account where hewakes up on the night of July first,
and he turns to Nicholas Trist andhe says, is it the fourth?
And Nicholas trist has to disappoint himand tell him it's not not yet.
And then again on the second heasked, is it the fourth?
And again the answer is no.And then on the night of July third,
(26:25):
eighteen twenty six, at about elevenpm, and it seemed like Jefferson
could go at any moment, hiseyes, you know, peaked open and
he whispers, almost inaudibly, isit the fourth? And Nicholas Tryst,
who I guess had not spent enoughtime under the West Point Honor code,
just couldn't bear to let the oldman down. And he told him,
(26:45):
yes, yes it is. Henodded that it was the fourth of July,
and according to his account, Jefferson, you know, had this big
broad smile on his face, anda lot of people have written that those
were Jefferson's last words. Is itthe fourth But if you read doctor dun
Listens account of the evening, accordingto doctor Dunglasson, he then offered Jefferson
(27:06):
another dose of medication, and Jefferson, having been assured that the fourth of
July had arrived, said no,doctor, nothing more. And Jefferson,
this would be a terrible story.Of course, if Jefferson right then,
right there on July third, hedidn't. He lived. He lived until
noon the next day, dying fiftyyears to the hour after the Continental Congress's
(27:30):
ratification of the decks. Ordinary thatboth of them, you know, it
is amazing this. You have tosay that the stars were aligned, or
we are very special nations. JohnAdams, you know, died around five
pm that day, and you knowhis words, his last words, according
to some sources, not knowing whathad happened down in Virginia where Thomas Jefferson
(27:53):
still survives. And you know,literally Adams was wrong, but but maybe
figuratively, in the best of senses, he was right. You know,
the of the Declaration of Independence dosurvive, and you know that's why Lincoln
was able to invoke them. That'swhy Martin Luther King was able to invoke
them. You know, we havealways used the Declaration of Independence as a
(28:17):
touchstone for our principles and as wehave tried to you know, perfect our
union and live according to our bestideals. You know, throughout the past
two hundred and fifty years, youknow, it has been our north star,
and it has you know, providedus with a guide, you know,
for what a legitimate and good anddecent and noble government should be and
(28:41):
to that point, and I certainlyagree it's certainly for me it is the
north star. It does, andit's what we always reference when we speak
of the promise of this nation.Do you think though, that you know,
Jefferson would have been able to accommodatea changing nation such as we have
(29:03):
now. I mean, would hehave been able to intellectually one thing?
So, but you have to askcould he have done that? Well,
you know we're asking a lot fora man from a man who was born
in seventeen forty three, but youknow, the indications are pretty strong in
his favor given that. You know, he was a person who was oftentimes
(29:26):
calling, oftentimes unsuccessfully, you know, for measures to bring about things like
the end of slavery. I mean, his very first public act as a
member of the House of Burgesses inseventeen sixty nine was to co sponsor a
bill that would have made it wouldhave made it legal for Virginians to voluntarily
free their slaves. It was youcould sell slaves, but you could not
(29:48):
liberate them. That was against thelaw. And Jefferson's proposal in seventeen sixty
nine was shouted down and he wascharacterized as an enemy of Virginia. There
was such hostility to the idea ofa free black people. Again, when
Jefferson is governor of Virginia in theseventeen seventies, he floats an idea that
Virginia would adopt a gradual emancipation bill. You know, a number of states
(30:11):
in the immediate aftermath of the AmericanRevolution either abolished slavery, like Massachusetts and
Vermont not yet a state, butit's governing itself like one, and it
has a seventeen seventy seven constitution thatforbids slavery. And then you have states
like Rhode Island in Connecticut, whichin seventeen eighty four embraced gradual emancipation plans.
Even before Rhode Island in Connecticut,Jefferson is proposing one for Virginia,
(30:34):
but again it shouted down. Andthen as a member of Congress under the
Articles of Confederation in seventeen eighty four, Jefferson proposes an ordinance that would govern
all the land that was now recognizedas part of the United States via the
seventeen eighty three Treaty of Paris endingthe Revolutionary War. And you know,
this is all the land west ofthe Appalachian Mountains and east of the Mississippi
(30:56):
River, all the land from theGreat Lakes, almost all the way down
to the Gulf of Mexico. Andaccording to Jefferson's draft of this ordinance,
none of this land would be opento slavery. And this failed by one
vote. And so if this hadpassed, it was really amazing when you
think about it, I mean,as a fork in the road of American
history. If Jefferson's proposal had passed, slavery would not have existed in Kentucky,
(31:21):
in Tennessee, in Alabama, inMississippi, presumably not in Louisiana or
Missouri or Texas. I mean,it would have been a whole different world.
And then and then finally, asPresident Thomas Jefferson, at the earliest
allowable moment that the Constitution provided for, there was an agreement that nothing could
(31:41):
be done for twenty years. Butin an eighteen oh way, Thomas Jefferson
signed a law ending the importation ofenslaved Africans into the United States. So,
you know, no more people aregoing to be kidnapped in Africa and
legally brought to the United States inchains. So he proposes a lot,
you know, he does a lot. Certainly, he's an eighteenth century man
(32:01):
with an eighteenth century mind. Butbut I think I think it's just worth
pointing out that if anyone from hisgeneration, you know, can be imagined
to look at the society that wehave created and not his head in approval,
although perhaps astonishment of you know,our very diverse population. I think,
(32:23):
you know, Jefferson would have viewedthis as a fulfillment of his dreams,
you know, well beyond his wildestdreams. Well that is no,
I mean, I know that hedid make all of those initiatives and then
and I think that's a point welltaken. But of course you have to
applaud George Washington, who actually didsomething, you know, um, And
(32:46):
I think for George Washing, whichit's sort of segues to my last question,
I think George Washington came to havea different appreciation for this issue because
of his experience in the war peoplehe had to turn to who that humanized
it in a way that it didn'tbefore. And so it became a much
(33:07):
more personal commitment on his part.And the interesting thing is, and the
average utterly very surprise because Jefferson didnot serve as a military man, and
yet he was the one who signedinto law West Point the military Academy.
And but but what was the impetusfor that? Because he didn't even believe
(33:30):
in a standing military at all,didn't he Well again it's a it's a
matter of degree. He didn't,you know, want a large standing army.
Traditionally, standing armies had always beenthreats to liberty, you know,
when you think about you know,military dictatorships around the world, or you
think about you know, Caesar crossingthe Rubicon or Cromwell, you know,
overthrowing the king and establishing himself asLord Protector of England. You know,
(33:53):
the military had been a source ofdanger for people who loved freedom. So
you know, we needed a militarythat was strong enough to protect the interests
of the United States and the libertyof the United States, but not so
strong that it would pose a threatto them. I mean, that's the
essential problem that Washington, you know, was given when he was appointed as
commander in chief of the Continental Army. And it's not an easy one.
(34:15):
I mean, how do you createan army strong enough to defeat the military
of the world's greatest superpower, whichis most of the time, but not
so strong as to undermine the libertiesfor which you're fighting in the first place.
And you know, I think that'swhy Washington's decision to resign at the
end of the war is such anoble one. And Washington's decision to,
(34:37):
you know, through his will,free all of his slaves was made possible.
I think, I think you're exactlyright that Washington came to appreciate African
Americans as real people in part ofthe service in the Continal Army. At
first, he resisted the idea ofallowing black people to serve in the Continal
(34:58):
Army. Finally he acquiesced to it. And we don't really appreciate this because,
of course, you know, themodern military was desegregated under President Truman,
but we had an integrated military atthe time of the American Revolution.
And at Valley Forge and the hutsthat the soldiers constructed, there were huts
where, you know, black peopleand white people were living side by side
(35:20):
one another, and fighting side byside one another, and dying side by
side one another, and and andso Washington. You know who died.
I think it's fair to say therichest man in all of Virginia had the
financial wherewithal to free his slaves,Jefferson. Unfortunately, by the time you
know, he died, was somuch in debt debts that he had inherited
(35:42):
from his father in law, debtsthat he was on the hook for it
because people he co signed for themselveswent bankrupt. And that's that he himself
was responsible for. Because, asI said, he at the largest library
in the Western hemisphere. I mean, he knew how to spend some money
when he saw things that he liked. His creditors really owned his slaves and
(36:02):
the rest of his property I meanthey were collateral. So Jefferson sadly,
you know, declared independence for thecountry, but could not really declare independence
for himself, and at the endof his life had to die realizing that
you know, all that he owned, you know, his house, his
(36:23):
furniture, his books, and youknow, these human beings, some of
whom he was related to, perhapsas you know their father, but certainly
as as their kinsman. Because ofcourse his wife Martha, her father was
the father of Sally Hemmings, youknow, who was enslaved at at Monticello.
(36:45):
You know, all all of thesethese people would go for sale on
the auction block, not Sally Hemmings. She's you know, given her time,
and her children are allowed to sortof unofficially go free. But legally
there's very that Jefferson could have done, you know, to liberate anyone.
You know, it's very sad.Is there anything in particular you think we
(37:07):
should reflect upon about Thomas Jefferson,Because he's, like you say, he's
he's a man that reviled and revered. He's the most to me, the
most complicated of all the founding fathers. And of course the contradiction of the
man who is the author of life, liberty and something as audacious as the
(37:29):
pursuit of happiness. I love thatwell who who else would say it?
Right? But but also a manwho had had more enslaved people than anyone
else. So is there something weshould pull from the life experience of Thomas
Jefferson and the profound impact he hadon this country that you think we don't
(37:50):
reflect upon enough? I would saytwo things. I mean, I think
that one thing that you know,people can always use, but maybe maybe
you know, we as a peoplecould have specially used now is humility.
You know, Thomas Jefferson was agenius. Thomas Jefferson had the ability to,
you know, at least take partin the shaping of a state and
(38:10):
a nation. You know, Jeffersoncouldn't always get his way, he wasn't
always right, but he did alwaystry to do right. I think it's
fair to say that. And youknow, we should understand that two hundred
and fifty years from now, thereare going to be people who look back
on us, and they will criticizeus for things, maybe for things that
(38:35):
we deserve to be criticized for,maybe for things that we don't even imagine.
Will be criticized for every new generationreinvents itself and reapplies the principles of
the Declaration of Independence, you know, to its own time. In some
ways they're unchanging and unchangeable. Inother ways they're amazingly adaptable. And I
(38:57):
think the second thing I'd want toto share with people is that Jefferson understood
this himself. His last real testamentto his life on earth was he wrote
the epitaph for his tombstone. Soif you go down to Monticello and you
visit the Jefferson family graveyard, you'llyou'll see it and it says, here
(39:19):
was buried Thomas Jefferson, author ofthe Declaration of American Independence, of the
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, andfather of the University of Virginia. And
Jefferson wrote in his instructions for histombstone that he wanted to be remembered by
those words and not a word more. And it's so incredible when you think
about it, like what he leavesout. You know, he have mentioned
(39:40):
being a member of the House ofBurgess's the Continental Congress. He could have
mentioned being our ambassador to France.He could have mentioned being our first Secretary
of State, our second vice president, our third president. He could have
mentioned that he was governor of Virginia, that he had, you know,
a purchased Louisiana. There were somany things he could have mentioned. But
why those three things? I mean, I think what Jefferson was trying to
(40:04):
communicate the Declaration of Independence, youknow, sort of freeze Americans to choose
their own path, to choose theirown destiny. The Virginia Statute for Religious
Freedom disestablished the Anglican Church as theofficial Church of Virginia. That you know,
according to the laws on the books, people had to attend and people
had to financially support. He createda free marketplace for faith in Virginia that
(40:29):
the University of Virginia was designed tofree the mind and allow people, you
know, to think about how theywere going to contribute, you know,
to this growing nation, how theycould you contribute to a more perfect union.
And so I think the point ofhis tombstone is that his greatness doesn't
come from the powers that people gaveto him. His greatness comes from the
(40:52):
powers that he restored to the people. And in other words, it's great
to think about Thomas Jefferson it's greatto think about the American founding. We
have a lot to learn from thosepeople. We have a lot to learn
from their example. We have alot to learn from that generation. But
we should really think about ourselves andhow we're going to make ourselves better,
and how we're going to make ourcountry better. And you know, we
(41:14):
should certainly look to them for inspiration, but you know, us plowing forward
and creating our own path into thefuture. I think it's fair to say
that's exactly what Thomas Jefferson would havewanted. Well, we really can't thank
professor McDonald enough. He really isexpert and conversant with the life of Thomas
(41:38):
Jefferson, and it was a longlife and a fascinating life. I mean,
here's a man who was our firstSecretary of State, second vice president,
third president, the author of theUniversity of Virginia, the Military Academy,
and of course the author of theDeclaration of Independence. Professor McDonald speaks
(41:59):
to all of those dimensions and hisfascinating life and his great contribution to who
we are today here in America.We can't thank him enough. This episode
was edited by Baywulf Rockland Roosevelt Heineand Lisa Chudy of Two Squared Media Productions.
(42:24):
Special thanks to Isabel Dorville for herresearch and production support fulk diversity,
for ensuring purposeful conversations when reflecting onour complex history, and basking strategies for
engaging our stakeholder community. Thanks aswell to joy Ford Austin, Jodi Simuda,
(42:51):
and Amy Anthony at the Institute ofPolitics, Policy and History. We
are grateful to the Kellow Foundation fortheir generous support of this founding father's Legacy
series. Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts.
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