Episode VIII of Founding Fathers Legacy Series (Thomas Jefferson) – Unpacking the Complex Truth Behind the Legacy at Monticello - IPPH On Air

Episode Transcript
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(00:17):
Thank you, good afternoon, HappyJune tenth. Thank you, and to
welcome. I'm Gail Joseph White,Mantechella's Public Relations and Community Engagement Officer.
I am also the proud descendant oftwo families that were enslaved here, the

(00:38):
Hemans's and the Hubbards. I'm alsoa descendant of the man who enslaved them,
Thomas Jefferson. I have for morethan seven years occupied the spaces where
my ancestors lived and worked, attimes feeling their presence and their plea asking
that we remember their labor and theirlife. Today, as you tour at

(01:02):
the house that our people built,you experienced Monticello's commitment to telling historical truths,
including of the liaison between Jefferson andSally Hemings, the enslaved woman with
whom he had six children. ButSally Hemings was not the only person enslaved
there. There were the boys whoworked in the naillery, the women who

(01:25):
worked in the fields, the weavers, carpenters, blacksmiths, and cooks,
including my three times great grandfather PeterHemings, all laboring from sun up to
sundown to give Jefferson the freedom tolive a life of his choice of freedom.
They were denied, They too mustbe remembered. Today's a ben is

(01:51):
being held at Manalto Jefferson's High Mountain, from whose visit as we can see
Monticello, his little mountain in theUniversity of Virginia, his retirement project.
Just this past weekend, Monticello's GettingWord African American Oral History Project celebrated thirty
years of collecting stories from the descendantsof the more than six hundred people.

(02:16):
Jefferson enslaved. We had a familyreunion right here, right here at mont
Auto where we remembered and celebrated ourancestors and our history. And we also
did some mean line dancing. Ina few minutes, you will hear from
our esteemed panel, including Mayor SharonPratt, founding director of the Institute for

(02:40):
Politics, Policy and History, aboutthe paradox of our countries founding and how
that complexity continues to affect us almosttwo hundred and fifty years later. The
IPPH is Founding Father's series Unpacking thecomplex truth behind the Legacy. Where do
We Go from Here? Seeks tobring the full history of America forward as

(03:05):
we do here at Monticello. Muchappreciation goes to my colleagues who forfeited their
holiday to be with us today anddo MFS Investment Management, the corporate sponsor
for today SYMPOSI, thank you verymuch. MFS is represented today by Abutopin,
who is the corporate business partner ofMFS, and please join me in
welcoming him. Thank you, Gail. Good afternoon again. I'm thrilled to

(03:43):
be here with the Institute of Politics, Policy and History and all of you
to celebrate Juneteenth. This is quiteindeed a historic place and time to do
this. Just being here in Monticello, I can feel the weight of our
decisions and the decisions of our forefathers. Maybe you can feel that way too.
I was personally blown away today.There's a lot I'm thinking about right

(04:05):
now. Those decisions had far reachingand powerful impacts on our past and our
present. Most significant decisions do onthis June teenth, we can celebrate from
celebrate freedom centuries after decision was madeto take action to end slavery back in

(04:25):
eighteen sixty five. This decision changedour lives forever. That's what I like
to talk to you about today,the impact of decisions and the way we
make them, particularly those that affectnot only our lives today but those of
our future generations. At MFS,we're long term investors, so when it

(04:47):
comes to decisions, we take ourtime. We take a pause and nexthale,
if you will, and bring togetherdiverse viewpoints, and most important,
we look at decisions from every anglebefore making them. Now. I know
it's not easy these days to pauseand reflect before making decisions, especially in
the world where everything is moving sofast. Instant gratification is the key.

(05:13):
So often we are compelled to react, but it's about playing the longer game
in creating the type of progress weall want to see. Think about what's
going on in the world today.How often are we reacting to issues rather
than facing and stopping the time toreflect and pause. Are we vetting decisions

(05:34):
from different angles, or we werejust responding more than ever before. Diversity
of thought is essential, but ittakes time to gather ideas, and it
takes time to learn from multiple sourcesto be able to make the best decisions.
What happens when we don't take thatpause that exhale and combined the diverse

(05:56):
views, we miss the opportunity thatdiversity provides. We react instead of respond
that leads to decisions like schools removingDEI topics from the curriculum. It leads
to hundreds of pieces of legislation banningor threatening LGBTQ, plus community thoughts,
ideas and information considered that as wealso celebrate Pride this week this month,

(06:23):
Response is about playing the long game. Response is taking a pause, reflecting
and asking questions and learning more aswe strive to be better. Response is
thinking about the right steps to getto the best possible outcome. Response leads

(06:43):
to much better decisions. Life movedmore slowly when the founding fathers made historic
decisions in this historic place. Perhapsthat pace was a luxury, But we
have advantages they don't. We haveaccess to information and easy ways to connect
and share ideas with each other.We just need to slow down, consider
how long and how far our decisionsmight reach. Our decisions might not make

(07:08):
history, but they do make animpact on our lives. Isn't that worth
taking our time for? And soI ask you to pause with me and
take your time to absorb the learningsthat we will occur here today. I'm
already, like I said, reflectingon what we just came from. So
I'm working on it, but wewill discover more about President Jefferson, the

(07:32):
founding fathers, and the decisions thatshaped our country. Today. We may
commit ourselves to President Jefferson's words,the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
So with that, I welcome ourpanel for our discussion. Thank you.
Yeah, Well, good evening,good evening, good afternoon. You can

(07:58):
tell where where I am. Itis a real pleasure to be with all
of you and to welcome all ofyou to this historic place. I'm Michael
Steele. I am the former Lieutenantgovernor of Maryland, former chairman of the
Republican National Committee, and currently politicalanalysts for MSNBC, and it is a
particular honor to be here with mygood friend and co anchor and cohort,

(08:24):
the honorable Sharon Pratt, former mayorof the great city where I grew up,
Washington, d C. And herlegacy and her leadership has been profound,
and currently her idea of creating thisinstitute, this ability to not just

(08:48):
talk about history, but to experienceit and connect it to politics and connected
to life, which is what Ip p H is all about. It's
just been a real treat for me. To be part of that idea and
to watch you unfolded every day.So it's a real treat to be here
in this second in the presidential seriesthat we're doing, and this it has

(09:15):
a lot of opportunity for us toget into some good stuff. So I'm
really excited about that. I dowant to wish everybody a happy Juneteenth.
I remember just a few years agoand you say that the people in LA
what are you talking about? Andthere's still some people saying, what are

(09:35):
you talking about? But as wesaw with Martin Luther King's birthday, the
African American community has a way oftaking hold of something important and making sure
everybody understands its importance. And wedon't celebrate for the sake of celebration.

(09:56):
We celebrate to understand, to learnto commemorate. And I think with programs
and series like this, you're you'regoing to see more and more of our
fellow Americans really beginning to appreciate thatconnection and understanding that history. So this

(10:20):
ability, uh, this coming togetherby I P. P. H At
Monticello, is particularly important, uh, and I think I think we all
can really appreciate it. Certainly justblown away, impressed, when I met
Gail, I was really looking forwardto that, having that particular part of

(10:43):
history to touch it. Right.Them genes are working through there. Right
when you shake our hand, you'reyou're shaking history, folks, and I
don't think we appreciate that. Sometimes. I think we lose that personal connection
that we have. So Gail,thank you for everything you're doing, and

(11:07):
certainly to Aboo and the folks overat MFS Investment Management. Powerful words,
man, and I appreciate that,and it's so important because it really goes
to the heart of what we haveto do, is to open ourselves up,
to take in the history, totake in the lessons, to understand
where we are and put it alltogether. So appreciate your words and the

(11:28):
support. I also want to turndown to introduce our panelists. I'm very
excited that we have a chance tohave a conversation with doctor Lisa Francavilla is
Senior Managing Editor Papers for the Papersof Thomas Jefferson Retirement Series, International Center

(11:50):
for Jefferson Studies. Real warm,welcome to you, Niabates, PhD candidate
Princeton. I wanted to get himright. We got a sister at Princeton

(12:11):
University Department of History and African AmericanStudies. Real pleasure. Welcome uh and
doctor John Regasta Uhagasta. Yeah,yeah, that's what I thought I had.
I had it right, Es Squire. So he's a lawyer, he
can't help himself. He's the interimdirector Smith International Center for Jefferson Studies at

(12:33):
Monticello. Welcome, doc, real, real pleasure to have you here.
Have you a part of the conversation. So before we get into I wanted
to share and before I turned itover to Sharon to really keep you don't
tell a politician to keep. Shejust told me, take your time.
I'm like, all right, settlein. So it's one of the things

(12:56):
I learned. There were two momentsin my inauguration as the first African American
elected state wide in Maryland. Onthe day I was sworn in, I'm
standing there on the state step capitaland Annapolis Harbor is literally right behind us

(13:18):
down the hill. And as I'mstanding there about to take the oath,
that hit me like a ton ofbricks. That literally behind me. As
I'm standing here taking the oath ofoffice. Kunti Kente was brought here as
a slave to Annapolis Harbor, andin that moment, I realized the weight

(13:39):
of history and the value of thathistory, and the value of the legacy
of constantly moving forward and reaching backand pushing forward, reaching back and connecting
that. And the second moment camewas the next day when I arrived in

(14:00):
the office of the Lieutenant Governor ofMaryland, so on the second floor of
the state Capitol. And as Iwalk in, the state's archivist meets me
and I'm like, okay, thisis different, and he wanted to tell
me. He said, I reallythink it's important for you to appreciate this
space. I was like, yeah, okay, he said, you remember,

(14:26):
okay, that Maryland was the country'sthe fledgling country's capital for about eighteen
months, as everybody was migrating towardsPhiladelphia to write everything out and make it
all final official. Well, duringthat period, the office of the Lieutenant
Governor where you're about to enter,was the office of Thomas Jefferson. And

(14:48):
he presented me with a book ofletters that Thomas Jefferson wrote at the time
he was in that office in Maryland. And I was like, wow,
I'm working out of Thomas Jefferson's office, and I remember as I sat behind

(15:09):
the desk, and so those whoknow me can immediately know where I went.
I was like, okay, soI get to redecorate this place,
and I did. I decorated itin a period of Thomas Jefferson. I
had the blues and the it wasgreat. But I would walk into that

(15:31):
office and I sit behind that desk, and I think to myself, Wow,
Kunta Kinte right, and here Iam Thomas Jefferson, And here I
am, And I would saying tomyself, Thomas Jefferson must be thinking to
himself, I'd a hell did abrother wind up in my office? And

(15:56):
then it occurred to me, SallyHemmings knows how I got there. And
that's the story. That's the storythat we have to tell, the pieces
that get left out of history.And so that's why we're here now to

(16:17):
share in that story, to bearwitness to the legacy that Gail represents and
so many others who have been apart of this family in many respects.
As Americans across the country are celebratingJuneteenth, we're watching and witnessing the country

(16:40):
come together in a way that isat times hopeful but also problematic. And
difficult, and so this eposium chosethis day, this particular moment, to
sort of examine those complexities and tohelp us appreciate a little bit better what's

(17:03):
at stake and why the past isas important as the president in order to
inform the future. So we're goingto go back to our founding fathers and
reflect upon the decisions they made asslavery drove the economy, it drove the
culture, and it conflicted the menwho owned and operated that enterprise. It

(17:33):
was interesting listening on the tour howThomas Jefferson, as a young man knew
that this is not right, butas an older man realized, well,
I'm going to have all this right. And that's part of that's part of
the struggle. We're also going todetermine how we can utilize the aspirational ideals
of Thomas Jefferson, and the seriesfocused on not just for Simpeth Madison and

(18:00):
George Washington as well. We wereat Madison's Madison's place a few months ago
on how we kind of moved thecountry forward. So we're all times looking
for the pursuit of justice and equalityfor everyone, and that's what the conversations
are about. So I want toturn it over to my friend, the

(18:22):
Mayor, who has devoted her lifeto public service in pursuit of justice and
equality in her leadership, one thatI'm very proud of to have experienced.
As a native Washingtonian, I rememberthe Broome campaign very well, and she's

(18:44):
been fearless in promoting that story.And so it's a real pleasure for me
to introduce the honorable Mayor Sharon Pratt, the founder of the Institute for Politics,
Policy and History. Michael, Thankyou, Michael, and we're so

(19:06):
honored. I know I am tohave Michael Steele as the co chair of
the Senior Advisory Committee. I mean, you can't do any better than that.
It's just spectacular because Michael knows thatI did just seek office talking about
the Broom. Within short order,most people in DC thought that's how that
was my former transportation. But Ialso want to thank Thomas Jefferson's Monticello for

(19:41):
a suggesting that we gather for Junenineteenth that speaks volumes about this organization.
So thank you Gail and Bengott andthe full team. You know, and
I too, am delighted to behere with John Rougusta and Nia Bates and
Lisa Francavilla, and of course I'mdelighted to have our senior advisory committee with

(20:02):
us, who have Carol Folk doesa spectacular job. Dean April Massey is
with us along with Michael. Wehave many distinguished scholars here with us,
some on the stage, one ofwhom is the very foundation of the Founding
Fathers Legacy series, and that isFergus Butterwick. He is a spectacular public

(20:25):
historian who is the author of ninenonfiction works, one of which is Washington,
The Making of the American Capital,and that is spectacular. I want
to thank you again. I agreewith Michael, your remarks were absolutely wonderful
and we can't thank you enough.Fergus is here with this better half,
Genevaterwick, who also was very activewith US Capital Historical Association. I believe

(20:52):
we have also James French, whowas our host not terribly long ago when
we were at Montpellier. I alsowant to acknowledge and do a special shout
out to one of our sponsors,the oldest African American flower shop in all
of the United States of America.Rick Lee. We're so proud to have

(21:23):
have. Really it means an awfullot to us. We also have Holly
Shulman, who was also a partof our conversation when we were at Montpellier,
and of course Kellogg Foundation. Wehave the University of the District of
Columbia. Members of the board oftrustees. Frederica's here represent Rivers, who

(21:45):
is the one who keeps them alltogether, and we appreciate her presence.
So we want to get into theheart of the conversation and so and the
thing that is so terrific or maybeso appropriate about having this conversation on June
teenth, is that it's sort ofinteresting to me that after the horrific event

(22:08):
of George Floyd, that the waythat the country thought one way to make
a gesture was to honor Juneteenth.You know, why did they even think
that, in the context of thishorrific event, that they think of the
event of ending slavery, or thatfinally the folks in Galveston knew that there

(22:32):
had been an emancipation. That speaksvolumes of why we're doing this founding Father's
Legacy series. As Shakespeare says,I'm gonna do the reverse of it.
We come to praise them, notto bury them. But we have to
acknowledge that as brillant as Madison was, as absolutely what a leader Washington was.

(22:57):
I mean, to keep volunteers organizedagainst a navy. It's hard keeping
volunteers organized against an incumbent in politics, much less keeping them organized with no
money, no shoes, and actuallywin that campaign that war. I mean,
that was extraordinary. And of coursethere rarely will ever be anybody as

(23:19):
brilliant as Thomas Jefferson, my goodness, the very first Secretary of State,
the second Vice president, the thirdpresident of the author or the architect of
the University of Virginia. I justrecently found out, even though he didn't
believe, I think in a standingmilitary, he's also the architect of the

(23:40):
US Military Academy because he believed inthe sciences. One of the great treats
of Washington, d C. Isthe Library of Congress. I had family
that worked there, and I wasso thrilled, and I finally got to
an age where I could go tothe Library of Congress. His books were
so such a diverse, next extraordinarycollection that that becomes the foundation for the

(24:03):
Library of Congress. And of coursehe is the author of the Declaration of
Independence. And as much as weare looked to the Constitution and elsewhere or
the Federalist papers, it is theinspiration for America. It is the best
expression of who we are and inour darkest days. Abraham Lincoln, who

(24:27):
had to be one of the greatestorators ever, one of the greatest wordsmiths
ever, when did he turn whenhe had to go to Gettinsburg to try
to keep the country moving and together. He turned to the Declaration of Independence.
Thomas Jefferson's words about us all beingequal, I mean that this was

(24:48):
a country of life, liberty,something I mean only Americans would come up
with the pursuit of happiness, youknow, right up there, right up
there, And because they were soextraordinary, because we were so proud of
them, this arrangement around slavery thateven in the twenty twenty three, when

(25:10):
did they think of in the midstof George Floyd, Let's talk about slavery,
had such a profound impact on thiscountry. And what I would like
to suggest is that it is becauseit's beyond what we call isms. I
have always we've all As a woman, I'm often the victim of sexism.

(25:30):
You know, people have all kindsof isms, but this was something other
than an ism. This was anorganized racial hierarchy. It was a cast
system where if you were born asa European you were forever to have access

(25:52):
to economic and political power. Andif you're something other than European, you're
going to have a struggle. Butif you're the sentence of people who were
African in this country change a littlelater. If you but in this country,
you are never to have political andeconomic power. And the thing about

(26:15):
you see it with Thomas Jefferson inpart because even those offspring of his who
had red hair and freckles, hedidn't register their names as far as I
know, in the Bible or whatthe equivalent of the vital statistics it was
in the Farm Book. They wereproperty and even though he made a promise

(26:38):
to Sally they would be manumitted whenthey were adults, those red head freckled,
His racial hierarchy was so intense thatthey were registered in that farm book.
I just cannot emphasize enough that thiswas a system that didn't end with

(26:59):
a sixty five. It didn't endwith emancipation, enslavement ended, but that
hierarchy didn't end. If it hadended, when there was a time to
make a gesture to the humanity ofthese individuals, there would have been some
type of gesture of reparation. Theonly people who got respiration were those who

(27:22):
had to give up their property,those who had to give up their enslaved
people. We know that that itcontinued even into the era of one of
the most speaking of Princeton Naya,one of the most brilliant presidents of Woodrow
Wilson. When he wanted to celebrategreat art, what did he do?
He had d W. Griffith's Birthof a Nation. It continued into,

(27:48):
as we all know, into thesixties. We didn't begin to penetrate that
notion of political empowerment until we hadthe sixty five Voting Voting Rights Act.
So we had a we had MichaelSteele, and you know even DC got
a right to vote. My pointsimply is that, as Isabelle Wilkerson said,

(28:14):
it is with us to this day. That is why I know some
people say, why do they goaround saying black lives matter? We know
when somebody can put their knee onsomeone's neck for nine and a half minutes
with everybody around them begging them notto do it. You know, still
in America there's a question mark aboutwhether black lives matter. And why do

(28:37):
I emphasize it because I know anybodyin this room cares about it. Anybody
who's bothered to come to this andbothered to contribute to this dialogue cares about
it. And we as we celebratethe greatness of these men. The reason
that we want to explore how wemove beyond it because there is there is

(29:00):
pain with it, but there ispromise with what they articulated and what they
asserted, and they did establish somethingthat is a sort of a hallmark for
us all, and that's what we'rehere to discuss here. With the Founding
Father's Legacy series, we are determinedto attain that more perfect union and that's

(29:21):
what this hopefully is about. Wellwell, alrighty then yeah, yeah,

(29:51):
it says I'm supposed to say something, but I don't think I really can
after that, I will before webefore we get into the meat of it
with our panel, I will saythis to take what the mayor has said
and move it further into the present, to sort of set up what our

(30:15):
future looks like. Today. Wehave I ask a question when when I
travel around the country, how muchdo you love America? And do you
love it the same if I'm init? Because that's what we that's really

(30:37):
the challenge, you know. Oneof the solutions for those of our founding
fathers who try at first rationalize theexistence and continuation of slavery, then moving
away from that, was well,let's just send them back. Let's just

(30:57):
send them back. This is ourAnd I'm like, it really isn't,
because there were people here for thousandsof years before you showed up. But
okay, never mind that point.So the question really does beg itself.
You know, when we look atthe challenge to this idea of this republic,

(31:18):
the democracy that is woven into it, how much do we love the
country? How much do we lovethe idea of America? And do we
love it enough that we respect thehumanity of everyone on its soil who also
love loves the country and also wantsto be a part of this experiment.

(31:44):
And for me is someone who's dealta lot on the political side of things,
to watch the devolution of that spirit, to watch the devolution of the
humanity of my fellow Americans is veryfrightening and very frustrating. And I know

(32:09):
we can talk about it in strictpolitical terms Republicans versus Democrats, but I'm
at a point where I'm kind ofbeyond that. I'm really looking at a
lot of us. I'm looking atall of us, because at the end
of the day, the labels arethe labels, and you can hide behind
those labels and you can deflect usingthose labels, you're not still getting to

(32:36):
the core of it that there's somethingthat's a little bit rotten that we've got
to address. And I put itthis way, between nine between twenty sixteen
in twenty twenty, eight million moreAmericans want it. That rot eight million

(33:02):
more they wanted that direction we seeminglywere headed in. And that's not all
one party or another. That's Americancitizens who've decided that, yeah, I'm
really concerned about others. I'm concernedabout the fact that I don't have as

(33:25):
much or won't get as much.And so all of these narratives kind of
feed into this moment right now wherewe have to take stock and reassess.
And that's really what Juneteenth is acall to. It is taking stock and
assessing you know that moment in historywhere people just found out right, just

(33:51):
realize that they've been free for thelast two years and didn't know it.
And in many respects, that's wherewe are now. Now, we're just
finding out a lot about ourselves thatwe didn't realize or we just kind of
blurred our vision about for a longlong time. We heard it, well,

(34:12):
we've elected a black man president.We're post racial. No he ain't.
Well, Martin Luther King marched,and we got the Civil Rights Act,
in the Voting Rights Act, youknow, civil rights are secured well
as the Supreme Court that because probablyin the next week they will dismantle the
rest of affirmative action, as they'vealready begun to do with voting rights.

(34:37):
So these rights that were fought forand secured, the only way they're guaranteed
is if we guarantee them. Andthat's part of the legacy that we see
emanating from the lives of the enslaved. They guaranteed our history. I'm sure

(35:04):
when freedom came they could have justen massive. You know, we going
back, just get on a boatand go this place is crazy. But
staying here they didn't. They actuallybelieved the words that Thomas Jefferson wrote,
and we're the living example of that. And so as we get into this

(35:24):
discussion, for me, and certainlyin light of a booze words, I
want to That's how I'm kind oflooking at this and how I want to
learn in this process. What's myresponsibility here as a citizen to be aggrieved

(35:45):
and wallowing that or to help myfellow Americans appreciate this story, in this
legacy and bring them into this conversationdespite the resistance of some whether it's CRT
or you know, whatever it happensto be, whatever excuse they come up
with, how do we help navigateour fellow Americans to a point of understanding

(36:07):
and appreciating the history that we're allliving? All right? I was the
last thing I asked a friend ofmine who was giving me crap because of
views I hold, which I'm usedto, but that's fine. And I
looked at him and I said,answer me this. Why are you so

(36:31):
mad that black people are finally tellingtheir side of the story. Why does
sixteen nineteen project bother you so much? Why does critical race theory upset your
nerves when you can't even tell mewhat it is? Because I'd asked him

(36:52):
he couldn't. He made up somestuff. I was like, dude,
that ain't it. Why are youso mad about my history that I co
wrote along with your ancestors, who, by the way, God here after

(37:15):
Mind died. So that's that's ourstory. That's what we're going to get
into, and we're going to doit now. We're going to do it
now. So my first goes todoctor Magstam. You you you bring in

(37:39):
uh a wealth of connections. LawyerPhD. You're sort of getting into this
world of Jefferson, you know it. How help us widen the lens a
little bit about your research and analysisand the impact of trying to get the

(38:06):
history right and does why is itseemingly so difficult to do that? But
Michael, thank you. You knowit's extraordinarily important and at multiple l's.
I've never understood people who are afraidof history. I mean, I've never
understood what it is to be fearfulof in that regard. And when I

(38:32):
have the opportunity to do tours atMonticello, which I do on occasion,
I tell people, I say,look, when we go through the house,
we're going to talk about the manwe know of as the architect of
American democracy. We're also going totalk about the hundreds of enslaved people here
at Monticello, including some of hisown children, who literally built the house

(38:53):
and made possible his lifestyle. That'snot too history, that's one American history.
So I don't understand the fear tostart with. But I think your
question really goes much deeper. AndI'm listening to your comments insurance. I

(39:13):
think it goes to you're talking aboutGail and trying to have a personal connection.
You're talking about your experience in ThomasJefferson's office, and it made me
think of the first time I wasasked to speak publicly about Thomas Jefferson.
I had just finished my PhD.And it was November of two thousand and

(39:34):
eight, which become relevant. AndI was speaking here in Charlottesville to a
room full of army brass, andthere was more brass than I you know,
there's a lot of gold braid andbuttons on these and they were having
some kind of a leadership conference andI was asked to speak about Jefferson the
leadership, and I have no ideawhat I said, and I doubt that
any of them remember it either.But at the end, someone stood up

(39:57):
and said, what do you thinkTom, miss Jefferson would say about Barack
Obama being elected president? And it'sa question I should have anticipated, but
it and I sat back and Isaid, you know, his head would
explode. I mean, his headwould explode. He couldn't comprehend that.
But you know, once he cameback down off the ceiling and he thought

(40:20):
about it for a moment, Ithink he would understand it in a fundamental
sense, in that when Jefferson waselected president, he had campaigned on reducing
the military budget and he was criticized. People said, you're going to make
the country weak. And in hisfirst inaugural address, he said no,
he said, you don't understand America. He said, this is the strong

(40:43):
and i'll paraphrase, I can't rememberexactly what he said. This is the
strongest nation on earth because when thelaw, when the nation is challenged,
every man feeling himself challenged because he'spart of the nation, he has a
commitment to the nation. He fitsfrom the nation, will rise to the
standard of the law and come tothe defense of the nation. And so

(41:07):
Barack Obama's election. Sharon mentioned thesixty five Boning Rights Act and for forty
million Americans, suddenly America, theAmerican dream, the American principles are real
in a way that perhaps they hadn'tbeen. And I think the same thing
is true about history and something youjust said, Michael about your history.

(41:32):
I think the same thing is trueabout history, and it's why we have
to discuss this history. And it'swhy it's part of our history. It's
not my history, it's not whitehistory. It's our history. And that's
powerful because as long as it's ourhistory, we're all working on this nation
together. We're all working on thathistory together. And as you imply,

(41:57):
some people find that a challenge.But you know, when you're challenged by
reality, you know it's your problemif they deal with it, Saron,
Doctor Lisa Francophila, you know Jeffersonto some extent, you know, with
the once who has revealed his relationshipwith Sally Hemmings. That is the fixation.

(42:22):
But he was a man of manyparts. He had many members of
his family that meant a great dealto him. He had a complicated family.
Could you sort of elaborate on whatlife was like for him? And
how he interacted with his family.Well, sure I can do that.

(42:42):
Well I know most about Jefferson's retirementperiod, of course, So that started
in March eighteen oh nine when Jeffersonreturned to Monicello, and shortly before that
time, his only daughter, Marthaand his son in law Thomas Mann Randolph,
were also there with seven of theireight surviving children. And over the
next few years Martha would have afew more children, and she also had

(43:05):
at least one miscarriage that we knowabout. Additionally, there were members of
their extended family that would come tovisit, and they would bring their children.
And then there were all the visitors. And these were sometimes old friends,
sometimes new friends, showing up withletters of introduction. They were authors,

(43:28):
poets, artists, religious leaders,military leaders, politicians of course,
diplomats, educators, All sorts ofpeople came to see Thomas Jefferson because that's
what you did back then. Soall of these people in this house.
You've seen the house, right,so you've seen that the spaces are wide

(43:51):
open, but they're also quite pramped. And you can imagine that when the
Randolphs came, Jefferson's daughter and sonin law, they brought their enslaved people
as well, and those people livedand worked at Monticello with the people that
were already enslaved on the property.The visitors that came, both the family

(44:12):
members and those who were not membersof the family, also brought their servants.
Some were enslaved, most were enslaved, some were not. So Monticello
the house was quite literally bursting atthe seams with people all the time.
And Jefferson was a curious man.We have already talked about his many interests.

(44:34):
There wasn't anything that didn't interest him. As he said, there wasn't
a blade of grass that didn't interesthim. But he believed that curiosity was
a great thing. He was abig proponent of continued intellectual and physical activity,
and he recommended this for himself,for his friends, and for his

(44:55):
grandchildren, all those grandchildren that Ijust mentioned to you, And so he
was really big on lending them booksout of his extensive library. He questioned
them and followed them on their studies. He discussed various topics with them.
But he was a task master forhis grandchildren. He also had very high

(45:19):
standards of personal development, personal intellectualdevelopment, conduct, and his grandchildren are
very well aware of these expectations,and they strove diligently to meet his approval
all the time. Excuse me,but if you asked them, they would
also say that he liked to havefun, that he was a teasing grandfather,

(45:43):
but that he was also very affectionate, and that he was also a
confidante sometimes and he would he wouldlead them in evening parlor games or on
long walks in the orchards where theywould pick figs. When they start to
ripen on the trees, he wouldchallenge them to foot races around the expanse

(46:06):
of lawn that you all saw earliertoday. So we have this image,
this kind of pastoral image of Jeffersonin his life with his extended family,
and that's good to have in yourmind. But then to also realize that
Jefferson was human and there were aspectsof his personality and his habits that sometimes

(46:30):
frustrated or worried his family. So, for example, Jefferson was a bit
of a weather optimist. It didn'tmatter what it looked like outside, it
was always going to be perfect fortravel, and it almost never was.
He liked to kind of force innovationson his family so one particular one that

(46:54):
I remember was a refrigerator, andthat was actually what Jefferson called it,
and the family hated it because itwasted the ice, melted the butter,
and kept the wine warm, andso that was no good. But one
of the things that was most worryingto all of the family when he started

(47:15):
to get older was his stubborn refusalto stop riding on horseback over his farms
by himself. And even when healmost drowned after having a fall from a
horse, it still didn't stop him. So this is you can have a
little bit of an image of whatMonticello was like with the family and all

(47:37):
the people that lived there in Jefferson'sown activities, but we have to remember
that it was not only Jefferson andhis white Randolph family that lived there.
There were enslaved laborers who were workingin the gardens and in the orchards and
in the shops of Mulberry Row.While the children were running their foot races.

(47:58):
There were enslaved women who helped Marthagive birth to all those children and
who took care of those children afterwards. There were enslaved young boys and men
who were taking care of the horsesand carriages on those long rides to Poplar
Forest or into town in torrential rainstormsand blazing sun. So I spend a

(48:24):
lot of times in my roles thateditor the Jefferson papers. But I'm not
just reading the letters. I'm readingwhat's there, but I'm also looking for
what's not there. And there's alot of the story that's going on that's
hidden in the letters. The family'sletters tell us things about Jefferson, about

(48:45):
life at Monticello that Jefferson never wroteabout himself. But even then, there
are still the gaps that you fillin once you get to know about all
of the people that were living atMonticello, and not just Jefferson's family.
That makes sense, does you?You speak very clearly about the the sort

(49:09):
of codependent, interdependent relationship. We'vegotten a little bit about the family dynamics,
you know, the immediate family,Jefferson's daughter's wife's kids, grandkids.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat that interdependent, codependent nature of the

(49:29):
slave owner and the slave here atMonticella or a place like Monticella. Yeah,
thank you for that question. Youknow, I think we have this
warped sense of what life on theplantation would have looked like. Of course,
our lens is through the lost causeit's through gone with the wind,
it's through all the disneyfication of history, and it's not rooted in the reality

(49:54):
of what life was like for mostpeople here on this plantation. These people
lived very interconnected, interwoven lives.Everything about their experiences were connected. Jefferson's
earliest memory, for example, isbeing raised onto a horse by an enslaved
person for a family trip when hewas very, very young, and his

(50:15):
last memory would have been of BoroughColbert adjusting his pillows shortly before he died,
the only person in the room whocould understand that Jefferson was trying to
say he was uncomfortable. And soeverything about this man's life is touched by
the experience of slavery. And sowhen I talk about the interconnected lives that
are here on this plantation, I'malso talking about the ideas. Right.

(50:37):
Jefferson is a man who is writingprofusely about freedom, about democracy, about
what it means to be America.He's designing buildings and spreading his architecture,
about hoping to set a national style. He's telling other slaveholders how to take
care of their plantations, how tomanage their enslaved populations, right, and
all of that is happening against abackdrop of the and women and children who

(51:01):
were enslaved here at Monticello. Thatthose people like Israel Jellette would have known
more acutely than maybe anyone in theworld where the shortcomings were in Jefferson's ideas
of freedom. Right, Israel Jellettetalks about a visit from the Marquis de
Lafayette, you know, in Jefferson'searly retirement, right, the Marquis de

(51:22):
Lafayette comes here from France, andhe asked Jefferson very pointedly, what are
you going to do about slavery?Why haven't you freed all these people?
And Jefferson deflects. He says thenext generation will figure it out, right,
But Israel Gellette Jefferson is sitting onthat carriage that day, and can
you imagine what it felt like fora very young enslaved person to hear their

(51:44):
owner, someone who is praised fortheir ideas of freedom, say yeah,
they should be free, but I'mnot going to do it right. Somebody
else will fix it later. Somebodyelse is going to hold America accountable for
the ways that we, the foundingfathers, have fallen short of our vision
of freedom. So the interconnectedness comesfrom these bound ideas of slavery and freedom.

(52:05):
And I think the descendant community,through their oral histories, through the
ways that they've reclaimed their stories,through the information we've recovered that isn't in
the family letters or the farm bookor other written sources, tell us that
these descendants and the enslaved people herewere here, had their own ideas about
freedom, and they fought ardently tomake those things happen. So every point

(52:29):
in American history where we have expandedupon Jefferson's ideas, descendants are not far
away from that moment. Whether it'sthe Suffragettes using the language of the Declaration
to fight for women to vote,whether it's civil rights activists fighting for all
kinds of civil and human rights right, descendants are part of that as well.

(52:49):
And so it's very interconnected and itcontinues to be something we're trying to
unravel. Thank you, as Michael. As a follow up to what you
just said, and I abates thatto what extent is there a resonance to
what to her observation, of theinterconnectedness that existed on the plantation of Jefferson's

(53:10):
time and to America today, isthere is there a residence? Is there
irrelevance? I think there is?Uh. The the interdependent nature of those
relationships are are defined by the parties, right They they kind of look at

(53:31):
each other and Okay, I figuredout my role, you figured out your
role, and we kind of knowhow we're going to roll, right,
and now we're going to do this, and even and even within that interdependent
nature, you have gradations. Right, So the relationship is very different between

(53:51):
the African Americans who work closeless closestto Jefferson and his family than those who
are didn't, who are out inthe fields or who were in some other
part of this vast plantation who hadvery little contact, but they were still
connected to the family and to theslave owner through the institution itself. And

(54:13):
I think we see a lot ofthat play out today. In fact,
it's funny, just in the lasttwenty four hours in a couple of pierces
on appearances on MSNBC, it wasasked the question a follow up on the
idea that Sarah Palin was asked,is this occult with Trump, and she

(54:37):
went on and said, of coursenot, and then to find what a
cult was, which is exactly whatthey're in. But the point was the
idea of this interdependence that all thoseindividuals have one to the other around a

(55:00):
concept, an idea and individual asystem, no matter how far removed they
may be from it. You know, Alaska is a long way from Maryland,
right, but those in the Magiuniverse in Maryland are connected to those
in the Magi universe in Alaska bythose threads that sort of bind them ideologically,

(55:23):
politically, et cetera. And wesee this narrative playing itself out the
left. The progressive left has thesame sort of systems that exist with them.
We saw that initially with the OccupyWall Street movement. I saw it
firsthand with the you know, Republicanssort of grassroots, constitutional based kind of

(55:49):
emergence back in two thousand and nine. So you have people sort of latching
on and identifying in the community thatthey're in the sort of give them meaning,
give them purpose. And so tothat young that young footman who's on
that coach listening to Jefferson and Lafayetteand and talk about him Essentially, he's

(56:16):
now connected to that storyline in adifferent way as the next generation. And
I think that's one of the challengessharing that we're going to see play out
in this country as we move intothis political cycle, is how the next
generation, which is already starting toemerge if you paid any attention to the

(56:37):
Gen X and Gen Z crowd there, it's a whole different level of politics
and how they reconnect, re establishthose linkages, in some cases, breaking
those old narratives around political silos andmy relationship to the government and the role

(57:00):
of government and things like that,are are going to be no different in
one sense than those generations immediately afterThomas Jefferson's death who had to deal with
how do we break the hold onthis thing? And it led to a
war, It ultimately led to acivil war, And there are those today

(57:24):
who argue we're on that path againin many respects, maybe not the way
the last one played out, butit will play itself out in different forms
and in different ways, and it'ssomething that we have to be aware of.
And it kind of for me turnsto turns to you about this relationship

(57:50):
that you just talked about with thefamilies, and how will you listen to
what I was talking about, thissort of interdependent nature of it, of
the plantation life and the idea ofa visibility inside the household. Can you

(58:12):
talk a little bit about that,and and how even being invisible, a
lot of these slaves tried to findthe power to kind of power through and
and create something different for themselves eventhough they were living in this impressive,
oppressive situation. Certainly, I thinkthere's degrees of invisibility in this situation,

(58:37):
and one of I'm just going totalk about a couple of the most striking
ones for me. So there areseveral household account books that the family cat
So Martha's daughter, or excuse me, Jefferson's daughter, Martha and then Martha's
own daughters would keep his household accountbook, and she they often acquired a

(59:01):
lot more food than they were actuallyraising themselves, not themselves, but the
enslaved people were raising at Monticello.So they have to rely on the food
that the enslaved people were raising themselvesin those few hours of time that they
could eke out for themselves every week. So these household account books list purchases

(59:23):
from enslaved people for chickens, forproduce things of that nature, so that
that food is ending up on thetable at Monticello that's feeding these visitors in
the family that's coming to stay atthe house. But even more importantly,
those people are named in this householdaccount book, but there are other people

(59:45):
that aren't named. And I saythis because you can't buy twenty chickens from
a woman one day and then twodays later buy twenty more chickens from her,
and then two days later buy twentymore chickens from her. So these
household account books suggest to me thatthere's a larger network of exchange that's going

(01:00:07):
on to the quarter farms, andthat these people that are recorded in these
household account books are acting as liaison's, they're brokers, so that people who
don't have first access to the peoplewith cash at the house can still get
the benefit of having some of thatcash for themselves. And so they're all

(01:00:30):
lifting each other up that way.Even though the people in the house,
Martha and her daughters who are buyingthese produce and these chickens, even a
beehive, don't know where their money'sgoing. All they know is that the
food is coming to the table.So those people further down on the quarter

(01:00:51):
farms are the ones that are invisibleto us, but they have to be
there, right. The other thing, of course, is we know you
probably heard when you were on tourtoday that Jefferson died in a great deal
of debt. Well, this wasn'ta sudden realization once he was gone.
He knew this was happening. Heknew it was coming, and he knew

(01:01:13):
for years that it was coming,and he put it off as long as
he could. He was a greatoptimist. He kept thinking, the next
harvest is going to pay all mybills, The next harvest is going to
pay all my bills, or I'mgoing to be able to sell land or
whatever. And it never worked thatway. Oh wow, wow, Now

(01:01:38):
it was a bear. That wasa big one too. That's okay,

(01:01:58):
right right right, So so forthose for those who don't because this is
live stream, so so for yourfolks going, what the hell does happen?
Might jumped top and there was abig, big black bear participating in

(01:02:21):
our conversation just outside the glass enclosurehere. Yes, and then and then
in true bear form, as soonas we all stood up and just like
Okay, this is crazy and jumpup. So we turned down to our
regularly scheduled programming. Then back toyou cool. I mean the subject is

(01:02:45):
interesting enough that we've drawn the wildlife. That's great, right, Well so
anyway, so I was mentioning thehousehold account books and the invisible people that
are hiding in that in that narrative. But there's also the debt that Jefferson
was in and as he was startingto realize that there was going to be
waste that he was going to haveto deal with this debt the closer he

(01:03:07):
got to the end of his life. And one of the things he says,
he comes up with this idea.It comes to him in a dream,
he says, and he describes itto his family, and that is
that he's going to sell property bylottery. And we know he had this
idea and that it came to himthis way because he tells his daughter about

(01:03:30):
it, and he tells other familymembers about it. But who else is
probably in the room hearing them discussthis dream about a lottery And what does
that mean to me as a personstanding over here waiting for somebody to ask
me for water or send me onan errand. But I'm listening to this

(01:03:51):
and I'm thinking this is not good, right, So those people are invisible
because we know they're there, andthey're here the family discussions when when Thomas
Jefferson, Randolph Jefferson's oldest grandson comesto him later and says, Grandpapa,
you're gonna have to sell Monticello too. It's not gonna work just selling other

(01:04:14):
property. You're gonna have to sellthe house here. And that means to
Jefferson, well, that means myfamily, meaning Martha and all of her
children won't have a place to live. But everybody else that's present, all
of the enslaved people who are againwaiting to be sent on an errand,
fetching and carrying, doing the variousthings they're supposed to be doing with their
time, they're also hearing this andthere must have been thinking what does this

(01:04:40):
mean for me? What does thismean for my wife? For my children?
There's no way out for us.And then this discussion continues after Jefferson's
death and the family, his whitefamily, are sitting in the home at
Monticello and they're talking about planning thenext or the first auction. Rather in

(01:05:01):
January of eighteen twenty seven. Jefferson'sgone for a few weeks, a few
months, but they're working on waysto dispose of Jefferson's property in the ways
that will gain them the most moneyto pay off his debts. And that
means they're talking about what's the bestway to dispose of his human property.

(01:05:21):
And all of these people are notinvisible, but they are in the discussions
that are going on, but they'revery clearly there. So that's what I
mean about invisibility. These people areso present all the time, and when
you look at these details that arecoming out in the documents, you have
to see them. You have tothink about them and think about what it

(01:05:44):
was like to be them. Idon't know about you guys, but I
would be feeling incredible panic and tryingto salvage my family and trying to figure
out how I was going to doif I could do that, And I
just you know, you have toyou have to look at them that way.

(01:06:05):
No, absolutely, no, Iobate you. You have done a
lot of research and work around theDescendants Committee at Monticello, I think also
the University of Virginia the communities thereas well. Could you tell us a
little bit more about Sally Hemming's family, and it's still very complicated. I

(01:06:26):
mean, all of these families coexisting, it's beyond coexisting with being enslaved people
and being the enslavers. You've got, uh, a woman who's living with
your father, the father, youknow, all of these dynamics. Can
you sort of elaborate on give usa sense of that. Yeah, So
the the enslave families here are deeplyinterconnected. Right. The Hemmings, of

(01:06:51):
course, are one of the largestfamilies here at Monticello. Over eighty members
of the Hemmings family here. Sowhen we talk about Sally Hemmings and her
life, we're talking about a personwho is someone's sister, someone's daughter,
someone's aunt. That there are somany different connections, and that the Hemmings
are in large part working very closelywith Jefferson and his family right there,

(01:07:16):
living and working on the mountaintop.But other members of the extended Hemmings family
are in many other roles around theplantation. Right there are the cooks,
They are nurse maids, they arecarpenters, they are people who Jefferson trusts
to put in a lot of themajor skilled trades that are happening here at

(01:07:36):
Monticello. And so for Sally Hemmings'schildren, I mean, even if we
remove the subject of their paternity,they are related to the Randolphs. They're
related to Jefferson's children through Sally Hemmings'sfather, right, who's John Wales Martha

(01:07:57):
Jefferson's father as well. Sally Hemmingsand Jefferson's wife are half sisters. So
even in the absence of a conversationabout paternity, they were already family.
You know. I think there's anadded layer of thinking about how much compartmentalization
Jefferson must have done in his ownmind to have children with his wife's sister

(01:08:23):
in law who was an enslaved person, right, yeah, right, And
so also then write in his onlybook, right that black people are inferior,
they're incapable of love, they don'thave these kind of relationships within their
own community, according to Jefferson.So for him to then have at least

(01:08:44):
for children with Sally Hemmings, andwe believe she was pregnant at least six
times, maybe more, that saysa lot, right, And so dealing
with the descendant community, we acknowledgethat there are a lot. There's a
range of feelings that people will haveabout this history. Some descendants have dealt
with their own emotional responses to theconversation by investing in believing that this was

(01:09:09):
a romantic relationship. Other members ofthe descendant community, of course, also
feel that there was potentially rape involved. Either way, there's a gross imbalance
of power in the position that SallyHemming's occupied on this plantation and the one
that Jefferson occupied, and so workingwith the descendant community, we have navigated

(01:09:31):
all of those conversations, and Ithink I've learned that the descendants are much
more articulate about it than any scholarever will be right, this your own
family history, right, all ofyou have families. You know how complicated
and how spicy your conversations can bewith your own family. But imagine being
in a position, as Monicello is, to interpret a family history to the

(01:09:54):
public, one that involves potentially theexploitation of a young enslaved woman. So
there's that element. Another element ofthe story, though, is that the
Hemmings, because they are such alarge and well documented family, have occupied
much of the narrative attention that wegive to enslaved communities here on tour.

(01:10:14):
But that is not to downplay thefact that there are at least thirty other
families living and working here, right. And so the work with the Getting
Word project and the oral histories thatwe've collected have enabled us to reclaim some
of those items that have been silencedor overlooked or left out of the written
archives. So through descendants, we'vebeen able to learn that Israel Jillette took

(01:10:38):
the surname Jefferson in freedom. Welearned that Isaac Granger, who was a
blacksmith enslaved at Monticello, whose cabinI hope you saw today on a tour,
also took the surname Jefferson in freedom, mainly because the person who was
writing his free register said, youknow what you were in slave at Monticello?
Would that be cute? You wantthe name Jefferson? And he was

(01:10:59):
like, okay, you know ifI have to get free today, that
we can put this name on thepaper. Right. You know, there
are all these different layers to theway that people choose to identify and remember
their connections to this place. Andso you know, I'm hopeful after spending
all weekend with the descendant community,that we continue to be a place that

(01:11:19):
not only sheds light on the vastexperiences of people who either labored in the
fields whose names are not recorded inthe written record, and also those people
whose lives we know a good dealabout because of the Farm Book and other
sources. I hope we remain aplace that just reconnects them at all sorts

(01:11:40):
of levels. I mean, partof the beauty of the Getting Word project,
and I think all descendant work,whether that's at Montpelier or at the
University of Virginia, is the opportunityto reconnect families and communities that were forced
forcefully separated by dispersal, sales andother separations through the institution of slavery.
And so I think there's real beautyin the work, But I think it

(01:12:01):
also asks a lot of questions.Right, if you're going to work with
descendate communities, what do they getfrom it? Right? If you're going
to benefit from telling these stories asan institution, then how do you give
back to the descendant community? AndI think Monticello is leading in setting the
tone for having conversations about reparations.You know, Monticello established the promise grant

(01:12:25):
program that is a scholarship for descendants, which is a step forward, right,
But I think as a nation wehave a long way to go in
conversations about repair and what we dowith descendant communities. It's excellent, n

(01:12:45):
I know James French knows it takesgreat pride in what they're doing in Boyer
as well, now too with theDescendant's Committee. But doctor Rogosto, how
do we do? How do wereconcile this contradiction of Thomas Jefferson. Now
he's emblematic of what happened in America. It's just that he was so extraordinary
and so important to who we arein America. It is such a struggle

(01:13:09):
to reconcile how he is emblematic thebest of who we are and then the
worst some of who we are.Can you help us sure, now,
Sar, It's such an important question. Jefferson is this iconic image of America,

(01:13:32):
and yet this is the man whoenslaves his own children, enslaves six
hundred individuals. Those of you wereat the house today. When you come
down, you see Jefferson's tombstone,and he says, by these things,
I wish it to remember that Ihad lived. Now, of course,
he's not going to mention slavery issomething he wishes to He says, I
wish it to remember the Declaration ofIndependence, the Virginia Statute for establishing Religious

(01:13:56):
Freedom in the University of Virginia.Political freedom, religious freedom, public education,
America's mission statement, America's creed,America's promise. He is speaking in
an American voice about what it isthat we think of as the American principles.

(01:14:18):
Why it is that millions of peoplestill come and want to come,
and yet there's that contradiction, andwe think about this a lot. I
mean, if you work here,this is an omnipresent issue, and I
think Americans need to think about this. They need to answer this question.
I can give you my answer.I think the critical element for me is

(01:14:45):
to recognize that the founders failed.Okay, they failed. They failed at
political freedom, most obviously with slavery, women's rights, Native American rights.
They failed at religious freedom. Wehad political really just test for office in
this country until nineteen sixty one.And they failed at public education. We
don't have taxpayer funded public education inVirginia until the eighteen seventies. But but

(01:15:15):
and I mentioned the women at SenecaFalls. But the principles are more important
than the failures, which is whythe women at Seneca Falls are quoting Thomas
Jefferson. It's why Frederick Douglas isquoting Thomas Jefferson before the Civil War.
Its why Martin Luther King and theBlack Panthers are quoting Thomas Jefferson. It's
why over one hundred nations and theirown declarations of independence, their own constitutions,

(01:15:38):
are quoting Thomas Jefferson. Not becauseof the failures. Now we can't
forget the failures. That's part ofthe history, but because the principles are
so critical and so fundamental. Youknow, I tell people that we're told
this country's divided. Michael made anallusion to that, and I guess in

(01:15:59):
some respecs that's true. But you'renot going to find many Americans who disagree
that at the foundation of this country, our political freedom, religious freedom,
of public education, at the foundationof this country the principles that Jefferson's articulating.
I got news we fail. We'restill struggling with voting rights. We're
still struggling with who gets to voteand where and how we're still struggling with

(01:16:21):
religious freedom. Look at the SupremeCourt cases this term. We're still struggling
with public education. But you know, you work at it. Martin Luther
King. The ark of the moraluniverse bends towards justice. I was told
people doesn't meet justice. It bendstowards justice. We try to do better.
That's the idea of enlightenment and progress. So, you know, I

(01:16:44):
think there are people that benefit fromtelling us that we're divided. I think
the media sometimes benefits from that.I think there's politicians who think they benefit
from that. We've been told thelie that the government is our enemy.
It's us, you know, it'sus. And I think that Americans buy
and large share those Jeffersonian principles.So I don't want to ignore its failures.

(01:17:12):
I don't want to forget them,because I think you learn from failures.
But you know, I do thinkthere is a broad embrace. And
I think June teenth, you know, June teenth is not and now I
hope I don't get June teeth isnot an African American holiday. It's an
American holiday because because it's part ofthat struggle, it's part of it.

(01:17:40):
It's great success for the for theAfrican Americans. It's great success for us
for America because you know we're makingprogress on that. So you know,
I said, I don't want toforget the failures, but I tend to
still embrace those principles. Well,that's enoting. It's I really appreciate that,

(01:18:00):
uh, that last point. Andto wrap up this portion, because
we do want to open it upfor a few questions from the audience before
we conclude, UH, on thisportion, mayor I like to turn to
you for a thought on this onthis institutional effort that our institutions, which

(01:18:27):
are the founding building blocks, ifyou will, are there for a reason
and to further this idea of individualrights, liberties, pursuit of happiness.
How how do we or how doyou see, given the challenge that these
institutions are facing today, how doyou see us uh reaffirming those values through

(01:18:54):
these institutions. We see the assaulton the d o J right, so
now you know everybody wants to defundthe FBI and all this other stuff that
we see. We see the assaulton the educational institutions. You know,
people screaming at school board meetings whojust found out where that there were school
board meetings, Right, I've beenin that room with enough to know that

(01:19:18):
one very well. How do theseinstitutions survive this moment, particularly given that
we can't even really honestly acknowledge theinstitutions that have played a role in creating

(01:19:39):
this moment from slavery onward. Well, I guess I'm like John Augusta,
I'm optimistic, always have been.I guess that's an American quality I have
that, you know, in spiteof the disappointments of America, And I
think it's very hard, especially forthose of us who's well, I mean,

(01:20:02):
we know women Latin Americans, Imean Indigenous Americans have been treated so
horrifically. Those of us who werea part of that particular cast system know
that we're still very much a marginalizedcommunity. But we believe in America.
We believe in those principles. Wehave faith in what the founding fathers articulated.

(01:20:26):
It gives us confidence to move forward. I mean, in the toughest
of times, what do we articulate, as John, We reiterate what they
said, we reference what they said, we believe in it. And that's
why some of us are impatient withthose who were born to so much privilege,
who go to places like Helsinki anddisrespect this country. That is so

(01:20:50):
upsetting to us because we believe inAmerica. We have believed in America,
and America has not believed in us. And so I do believe and therefore
have confidence that we aren't going toget through these tough times that I think
there are more Americans who wanted theaspirational aspects of us a much more part

(01:21:12):
of who we are, even thoughwe will have these difficult forces. So
and I do want to remind everybodythat one of the reasons that we are
here celebrating these three particular founding fathersis because these three particular founding fathers brought
us to the point of Washington,d C. They established that capital along
the banks of the Potomac, andwe in DC are still hopeful that we'll

(01:21:36):
have a full participation. We're workingon that. We're working on that,
but I'm very optimistic and I'm verygrateful to all of you for your help
today in celebrating the life of ThomasJefferson and the promise of America. It

(01:21:56):
was really really uplifting and Gale andonto your team. We really appreciate very
much. Thank you very much.So we're going to do We're gonna we're
gonna do a little Q and Aof our esteemed panel here and uh so,
there's a microphone in the back.If you have a question, please

(01:22:16):
go to the back now here.Here here's the rule. All right.
I just want to hear your nameand your question. No speech, no
extra poraneous thoughts, no telling usabout your childhood. Mean like the academy

(01:22:40):
a wood. Oh, I strucka nerve. I don't want to get
up and talk about your childhood.It depends on how interesting their childhood was,
because if you had an interesting childhood, you may want to share a
few. But we want to Iwant in the in the time we have
left. I do want to getin as many questions as as we can,

(01:23:02):
because we do have a wonderful mealand opportunity to plan. So I
don't want to get us too offschedule. But so name question and then
to whom you address the question.So, yes, ma'am, you're up.
Good afternoon. My name is SylviaCyrus. I'm the executive director of
the Association for the Study of AfricanAmerican Life. And history, the founders

(01:23:24):
of black history, and my lifestarted. Now, yeah, I'll better
settle in a good one. Iguess the question that I have is to
any of the panelists, what canwe do to support history and the truth

(01:23:48):
in its interpretation on a wider scale? In America? We know that STEM
has done so much to take allthe oxygen out the room. Too many
of our chill and don't know civics. These things are deliberately being removed from
the curricula. What can we dowell, I'm gonna get in trouble again.

(01:24:14):
One of the critical elements is justsupport public education, and by that
I mean public taxpayer funded education,which does not include private school vouchers,
does not include charter schools, doesnot include private schools. Because public education
is the opportunity where we come togetheras a nation and talk about our civics.

(01:24:39):
So I'm a huge supporter of publicI believe in public education is a
real opportunity to address some of theseproblems. And support the teachers because they
want to talk about this, Theywant to teach these subjects. They are
being told not to touch these subjects. So support the teachers in these publics

(01:25:00):
schools because if we all support theteachers and their ability to teach these subjects,
to engage with their students when thestudents have questions so that they can
develop these teachable moments that they're alwaystalking about. The more of us that
support the teachers that do that,the harder the pushback against these people who
tell us not to is going tobe. I'll cut you off. Yeah,

(01:25:29):
doctor Cyrus can't say it, butI will join Asila Asalah. Support
all of your local public history organizations, whether that's your local historical society or
the African American Heritage Center or anynumber of small black led preservation groups.
And I say black led, pleasesupport the black led organizations too, right,
put your money where you're at thisOur organizations struggle. We have some

(01:25:51):
of the oldest museum institutions in thecountry, and yet our space is still
are understaffed. There aren't enough resourcesto go around. We don't have enough
people doing oral histories. So pleasedo those things too. And I would
just say, mister Steele, tospeaking to your point, pay attention to
what's happening in the state of Floridaand Texas and other states. Don't just

(01:26:15):
sit back and not think that itimpacts you. It's coming to a state
near you, and I think thatwe all should be watching. Oh yeah,
it'll be there before you know it, if it's not already there.
Yes, sir, Hello, myname is James French. I won't tell
you my life story. It ispretty interesting. So this is really for

(01:26:38):
everyone, but I think I wantto ask you, Michael. We heard
some really great comments from all thepanelists. I'm thinking about the conversation that
Naya was talking about with Israel Gillette, is that is that the correct pronunciation?
And Jefferson about you know what aboutus? You know what about our

(01:26:59):
rights? And then John Regosta earliertalking about that the founders failed, but
the principles didn't fail. Their mistakes, but the principles are what are still
valuable to us. So what canwe do From your perspective, You're you're

(01:27:19):
very close to the political world,and I'm wondering what role How do we
leverage or take advantage of institutions likeMonticello and others I'll say Montpelier too.
Two to help people understand the principlesthat those stories along the walkways here between

(01:27:47):
a Jefferson and an Israel Gillette,Uh speak to how can this enter the
public realm? How can this producetangible results? And I'll stop that.
Yeah, No, I appreciate thatquestion very much. It is for me,

(01:28:10):
in a lot of respects the evolution, the modern day evolution by modern
day. I'm looking at a periodof two thousand and six forward, all
right, in that context, watchingwhat was happening inside my own political party,
the Republican Party, and thinking tomyself, well, this ain't right,

(01:28:33):
and this is not the direction,This is not part of the founding,
This is not what Lincoln and FrederickDouglass often talked about. And you
begin to realize the importance of theconcern that our founders had about fraction factions

(01:28:54):
with what they call political parties backin the day. They didn't want them,
that they would harm this idea thatthey were trying to create, right,
And I got that. But whatI got even more to your question
is the answer for me rests inthe Founding documents. It rests in what

(01:29:21):
the founders did that they probably didn'trealize they were doing. That They weren't
just giving power to white gentry landedowners, you know, people who held
the states like this white men thathowever, whatever reason, they wrote that

(01:29:45):
document that empowered everyone in this room, that empowered all the citizens in this
country. And they charged us ina way that I think we've forgotten,
and that is the words that say, we the people, not me,

(01:30:06):
Tommy, Jeff and Georgie wash right, we the people in order to form
not a perfect union. Right,goes to what you were saying, not
a perfect union, not the bestunion, a more perfect meaning. We're

(01:30:26):
gonna constantly strive towards this thing,that this idea that we've created, and
I think in large measure we havegiven up on that. We elect people,
and then we could go back onOkay, we're done right, and
then we get all upset and westart moaning and growing with stuff don't go
right, and then you retrench andyou find a tribe and you start throwing

(01:30:48):
stuff and yelling and screaming, andyou lost sight of the fact that our
constitution, a bill of rights,these documents charge us with the responsibility of
making this thing work. You know, Ben Franklin wasn't wrong when he was

(01:31:11):
asked, what have you done?Well, we've given you a republic if
you can keep it. He didn'tsay well, the boys and are we're
going to work this thing out.You'll be okay, he said, We're
giving you something that you now haveto take responsibility for, and we don't.
We don't, and we need to. When you look at the lack

(01:31:33):
of participation in voting and everybody's allupset about all voting rights going away,
Well, what made you think thatthat battle ended just because they passed a
Civil Rights Act or voting rights Act. No, we had a constitution and
we see we're still fighting for thatSecond Amendment rights all right, That fight

(01:31:53):
goes has been going on from thevery beginning. So why do we why
do we think that once these documentsare written, that we're just now free
of our responsibility as citizens, thatwe the people no longer have any business
in this And so that to meis how we begin to address all of
this. How we pay attention,why we need to pay attention, what
we're paying attention to, and howwe hold each other accountable. You don't

(01:32:18):
get to tell me that January sixthwas legitimate political discourse, and don't think
I'm not going to get up inyour face. But they get away with
that because they know one that noone will because we the people are like,
well maybe it was you know,I don't know what they mean by

(01:32:41):
that. We know what they meanand we know what's happening. So I
think for me, I'd like tosee us civically involve ourselves in a way
that not only do we outwardly expressthe role we have as citizens, we
the people, but that we alsothen fundamentally take control of those institutions,

(01:33:03):
going back to that point about theinstitutions, so that we're now teaching the
next generation of what that role inthat responsibility is. Thank you, Yeah,
Okay, we'll do a couple more. And then we got room for
the next generation and and and thepress one people that we like for people

(01:33:25):
who work as in darma. That'sthen then I don't have profit as you
or as consultant or advised. Buthow do we get this polio party politics?
Where is your term? Is yourterm? This one is? You
know, it's sort of a likea f understanding that lead or not that

(01:33:45):
no no one wants to leave officeand U the they they they So let
me just let me just real quickanswer that no one wants to leave office
like that? How do people leaveoffice? You vote? There behind out
so they leave office. Well,so that but that's the point that see,

(01:34:08):
that really speaks to the problem Ihave is that we don't recognize the
power we have. We think becausewe've elected them, they get to stay
as long as they want to.No, they don't. No, they
And I say that as a formerelected official, right, I know my
ambition was not to be lieutenant governorfor life. My ambition was not to

(01:34:30):
then use that to be the nextthing. And that you know, people
say I've been in I've been inWashington for forty five years. Well that's
forty years too long. I mean, think about where the founders were.
They came to Washington. They wantedto get the hell out of there as
fast as they could because they hadto come back and farm and and continue
their lives and and and work andand But now we we've so elevated these

(01:34:57):
individuals, they don't They're not workingfor or you. Please, they're not
working for you anymore. So thepower is in your hand, we the
people, it is ultimately it.These institutions are there for us. We
own them. This process, weown it. We own all of this.
We own the good, the bad, and the ugly of it,

(01:35:17):
and so we've got to take responsibilityfor that and acknowledge that the players who
aren't working with us to create affordablehealthcare and better schools and all those things
that we used to have these bigpolitical debates about, if they're not doing
the job, vote about yes,ma'am, real quick. My name is

(01:35:39):
Colleen Marryates' second, and we areresilient people. If I could ask all
of the slave descendants from Monchello toplease stand, and as the second,
all slave descendants who are in theroom, even if you're not from Monticello,
please stand, all of us,y'all. Y'all realized the whole room

(01:36:09):
should have been standing, right,y'all. I just still want that to
get lost, she said. Ifyou are descendant of slaves, yeah good.
I am led, I mean Kwander, and I'm representing the League of
the descendants of the Mount Vernon enslavedand I'm here as one of those people.

(01:36:35):
But mine is not a question iscomment. I want to remind everybody
that this forum, the significance ofthis forum is to go out to the
highways and the by ways and tospread and to teach and to share because
what we are doing here Part twoof three. In terms of where we

(01:36:58):
go from here and the complexity ofthe legacy of slavery engendered by the founding
fathers and others, is something thatother universities, other organizations, a Solah
among them, are doing. Theyhave a responsibility. But that responsibility does
not end when we leave here orwhen we leave Mount Vernon next month.
We must go out. Our nationis on the eve. This is not

(01:37:23):
Christmas Eve, it's two hundred andfiftieth anniversary eve. So we want to
help engender new thinking. We talkabout the new Negro right after the World
War II that led up to theRenaissance. We need to engender as best
everywhere, every occasion to get otherpeople to open their minds and hearts,

(01:37:44):
because this is how we're going tooffset the adversities that are coming to us
when people try to nail us andmake critical thinking and wokeness adverse. We
all know that what critical thinking means. We all know what woke was supposed
to me. So we have aresponsibility to not let them turn that against

(01:38:05):
us. So I just wanted tojust throw that out, appreciate it to
the group today. Thank you,no, thank you and and the point
shouldn't be missed. We're coming upon the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of
this great nation. Are we gonnatell our story along with the rest of
the stories that are being told?And that's that's gonna be an important conversation.

(01:38:29):
So I want to thank our panelso much for your time, Doctor
John Agusta, Naya Bates, PhD. Candidate, I'm gonna pray, doctor,
We're gonna We're gonna pray doctor,doctor Bates on her so PhD Candidate,

(01:38:49):
Doctor, and of course doctor LisaFrank Frank Development, Thank you.

(01:39:14):
This episode was edited by Beywolf,Rockland, Roosevelt Heine and Lisa Chudy of
two squared Media Productions. Special thanksto fulk Diversity for ensuring purposeful conversations when
reflecting on our complex history and basketStrategies for engaging our stakeholder community. Thanks

(01:39:39):
as well to Joy Ford Austin,Jodi Samuda, and Amy Anthony at the
Institute of Politics, Policy and History. We are grateful to the Kellogg Foundation
for their generous support of this foundingFathers Legacy series. Be sure to subscribe

(01:40:00):
wherever you listen to podcasts

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Episode VIII of Founding Fathers Legacy Series (Thomas Jefferson) – Unpacking the Complex Truth Behind the Legacy at Monticello

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode VIII of Founding Fathers Legacy Series (Thomas Jefferson) – Unpacking the Complex Truth Behind the Legacy at Monticello