July 17, 2024 • 43 mins
Season 1 of "In the Room Where It Happened" focuses on America's defining father, Abraham Lincoln. In episode two, former D.C Mayor, Sharon Pratt speaks with professor and scholar Catherine Clinton about the life of Mary Todd Lincoln and her influence on Abraham Lincoln's presidency.
Professor Catherine Clinton is a pioneering historian of American women, the American South and the Civil War. She is the author or editor of over 30 books, including “The Other Civil War: American Women in the Nineteenth Century,” “Harriet Tubman: The Road to Freedom” and “Mrs. Lincoln: A Life.” She served as a consultant for Steven Spielberg’s 2012 film “Lincoln.” She earned a B.A. from Harvard, her M.A. from the University of Sussex, and her Ph.D. from Princeton. She has taught previously at Harvard University, Wesleyan University and Brown University. She is currently a Professor of History at the University of Texas at San Antonio.
Professor Catherine Clinton is a pioneering historian of American women, the American South and the Civil War. She is the author or editor of over 30 books, including “The Other Civil War: American Women in the Nineteenth Century,” “Harriet Tubman: The Road to Freedom” and “Mrs. Lincoln: A Life.” She served as a consultant for Steven Spielberg’s 2012 film “Lincoln.” She earned a B.A. from Harvard, her M.A. from the University of Sussex, and her Ph.D. from Princeton. She has taught previously at Harvard University, Wesleyan University and Brown University. She is currently a Professor of History at the University of Texas at San Antonio.
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(00:00):
Welcome everyone. I'm Sharon. I'mthe founding director of the Institute of Politics,
Policy and History. We call itIPPH, and I'm also the former
mayor of Washington, d C.And you can learn more about IPPH at
IPPH dot org. And we aretruly thrilled that we have the perfect guests
(00:21):
for our conversation today, and thatis Professor Catherine Clinton. And she is
quite the pioneering historian regarding women,American women and the South and the Civil
War and also a recipient of theGuggenheim Award. She's got over thirty books
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focused particularly on American women's especially inthe South, including Harriet Tubman. And
our focus for today of Mary.And I'm going to say Mary Todd Lincoln.
I've seen you talk about that,how we call her married Todd Lincoln,
and so it's a real treat.And let me just also add as
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a preface that this series about definingFather's Legacy series is about those Americans who
played such a pivotal role in Washington, d C. Becoming a significant metropolist.
And clearly the catalyst for all ofthis was the Civil War. So
not surprisingly these three are Abraham LincolnFrederick Douglas and Ulysses Grant. And today
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we're still talking about the president whowas the one who had to prosecute that
war. And we also want tomake certain that when we talk about these
individuals, they're not monuments, butthey're people. And in order to understand
Abraham Lincoln, we need to understandpeople who were part of this life.
And no one was more a partof his life than his wife, Mary
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Lincoln. And we have a perfectguest to help us understand this individual.
Thank you so much, Professor Clintonfor being here today. Thank you so
much, Madam Mayor. It's agreat pleasure to be able to discuss someone
I've lived with for many years.It's been fifteen years since my book was
published, but I still feel thatMary Lincoln gets a bad rap from too
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many historians, and it's great tobe able to talk about her, especially
in relationship to these three gentlemen,because she did have a connection to all
three of them a closer. Herclosest connection was to Abraham Lincoln. But
I also write in my book aboutthe fact that she was someone who forged
the reputation of Lincoln as an emancipator. She was someone who gave gifts to
(02:47):
Frederick Douglas in the wake of herhusband's death and assassination. And I don't
think she ever really got over therole of Ulysses S. Grant, who
she referred to as a butcher.She was not happy at all with his
role, but she was a greatsupport to her husband throughout those long dark
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days of the Civil War. Well, you know, yes, I also
have the view that she's gotten areally bum wrapped and nobody's one dimensional.
I mean, they really paint heras just this nutcase who is a source
of consternation to Abraham Lincoln. Whatmy question would be, Let's begin with
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what was her life like? Youknow, she was a woman who was
born to some privilege, a familyof enslavers, and I gather a woman
whose intelligence was nurtured to some extent. Could you give us a sense of
her background. Yes, she wasborn into a bluegrass Kentucky family, and
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she had ambassadors and senators and governorsall connected to her by blood. Her
own indeed was a slaveholder, butduring her youth her mother died at a
young age, and she very muchwas raised by a grandmother. That grand
mother happened to emancipate her slaves,as did the mother of her stepmother,
(04:14):
So she was in a border state, in a state where slavery was a
contentious issue. She grew up alsosomeone who was used to the early marriage,
which was quite common among Southern Bellsat that time. But she got
twelve years of education in Madame Taliban'sacademy in Lexington, Kentucky. And when
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her older sister went off to Illinoisand married the son of the governor,
she followed her there, as didanother sister. And while she was there
she happened to encounter a young,strapping politician named Abraham Lincoln. Now,
well, she quoted, but Imean I thought i'd read where she was
quoted by Douglass Stephen Douglass's why isthat true? Well, Stephen Douglas was
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at many of the levies and partiesshe was at, and so indeed it
makes a great story to say howwell connected she was. That at the
time of the eighteen sixty election shewas married to one of the candidates,
she had been romanced by another,and she was related to the breck and
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Riches as well. There was justone candidate who got the lowest number of
votes, I might add, whowas not connected to Mary Lincoln. So
she was in an influential political family, and she loved politics, and she
married at a relatively late date comparedto the women of her cohort. But
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she was a good reader, sheloved poetry, she loved politics, and
she and Lincoln very much discussed manyof the politics of the day. So
what do you think I mean ofpressure? One guess is that she was
drawn to him because she saw hispotential. Is that true? And would
you say that he saw how shecould enhance that potential. I was quite
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shocked when I was reading the localpapers in Springfield for my biography, and
I saw that Lincoln was being attackedas a bluestocking because he was married to
a member of the Todd family,and because of course marrying up was quite
a great tradition in that era.We do have many politicians who are known
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as great fire eaters and Southerners,like James Henry Hammond who proclaimed slavery as
king, but he himself was fromNew Hampshire and married into a Southern family.
So people accused Lincoln of that.But eventually his own politics came out.
He gained confidence with his marriage toMary, because she did see him
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and spoke about him as a diamondin the rough and one that was to
be polished, and that was whatshe spent much of her time in early
marriage doing. She was incredibly ambitiousfor him, and she used to go
to the gallery at the Statehouse inIllinois to hear the speeches and observe him.
She was indeed someone who was justentranced with a her husband and b
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politics. Now, she seemed tohave been quite interested in politics for what
I can discern. And he wouldhave had to have somebody who was in
a position to affirm to have theaudacity to see the presidency. I would
think some man who's born in alog cabin, I mean a literal log
cabin was no floor, no windowat one point. I mean, it
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really takes the leap of faith tothink you could go from there to be
president of the United States. Andshe has to be that nexus. But
do you think I'm giving her toomuch credit? Well, I think that
the right to rise was something thatwas emerging in American politics at the time.
But Lincoln really needed the support andthe love that he'd been deprived of
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his early life. Was so ramshackleand so rough. His father didn't approve
of education. It was his stepmotherwho really nurtured that. Mary and a
both lost their mothers at a youngage, and her tenderness and her kindness
was something He always referred to heras mother, and I think that was
very telling, because she did nurturehis talent. He also was a great
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order and all of his speeches hewould practice by speaking them aloud. So
it was said that their dinner tableand their breakfast table was full of him
orating and her gently urging him on. She would also urge him on to
wear socks that match, to notsprawl on the floor with the boys playing
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when politicians came to visit, andindeed their home was well featured during the
campaign. We today think of politicalcampaigns in terms of running toward the convention
and speech making, and it wasquite a shock again to discover that even
this great orator didn't speak from thetime of his at the time of his
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nomination until his election. And soit was Mary's job to entertain the reporters
in Springfield, keep them happily fed, and libations were liberally passed out at
that time as I'm sure they stillare, but it was really Mary's charm
and grace that won people over inperson. However, in the press,
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I have to say they were mostunkind and attacked her. And when she
first went to Washington, it wasthe niece of President Buchanan who said she's
awfully western, so loud and unrefined. Because both and Lincoln were the first
couple to be born outside of thethirteen original state, Yeah, yeah,
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so Lincoln really signaled a new kindof political man, a new kind of
political state. Well, from ourvantage point for what we're doing at IPPH,
when we looked at the three individualswho were pivotal to the capital being
established in the South, they're allthree of them are planters. They're all
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three men of privilege. And herethe three that are pivotal to the dramatic
growth of the capital also emblematic ofwhat's going on in America. All three
of them are men who are bornto almost nothing. In fact, Frederick
Douglas less than nothing, Ulysses S. Grant and you know Abraham Lincoln,
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and all three of them seemingly whereI said, married up in a way
that was important. Yes, Butwhat do you think that they think that.
Sorry, maybe I say maybe Grantand Lincoln forged that bond because both
of them were men who married womenwho made such an important difference in their
lives. No one really believed inGrant early on, but Julia did,
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and Julia really pushed him, andI think that in that they might have
seen a bond that they each roseincredibly and gained such insight and such leadership
talent during the Civil War, onemilitarily the other politically. No. Absolutely,
and the same really for Frederick Douglas. He's enslaved. He marries a
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woman who's free, I mean,without her enterprise and resources, he never
would have been able to escape.So absolutely. At one time Lincoln and
Mary Todd were engaged and then theengagement was broken off, and some say
that foreshadowed some of the a contentiousrelationship. That's your take on that.
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My take is that he was veryunsure about marriage completely. He was confiding
in his great friend Joshua Speed oncehe married, to find out if it
really brought him happiness, if itreally was fulfilling. In the town of
Springfield, there were many bells tochoose from, and a parade of women
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coming through, and Lincoln was quitepopular with older women who frequently matched him
up with younger women, and Ithink he had a few voibles along the
way, but realized after a periodof time that Mary was someone who had
stayed faithful to him in thought.Indeed, even after she was being ridiculed
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around the town for someone because hehad broken off with her. They didn't
see one another for over a year, and then in November he proposed and
they were married within a few days, and that really, I think got
the gossips going. There are somewho even suggest that perhaps she was pregnant,
but we have no evidence of that. We know that a child was
born nine months later, which isvery very common in nineteenth century America.
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No, I did read that recentlythat she had seduced her and that that's
how she was able to secure thatmarriage. Well, she was the object
of criticism. Is that that shejust did not have finesse to work the
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opinion makers, the thought leaders ofWashington, d c. Or was it
that she just had a rambunctious personality. She was someone I have to credit
her with a tremendous temper and alsothe memory of an elephant, because she
never forgave one of her bridesmaids whosehusband went on Lyman Trumbull to become the
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Senator over Lincoln, and she reallyblamed his wife. How does that happen?
Because she believe that the wife behindthe man was really the one responsible
to scheme and dream and therefore shereally did believe that she was a force
to contend with. When Lincoln wasfirst elected to Congress and she went east
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to Washington, it was a terribledisappointment. She lived in a boarding house
with two young children. She couldn'tsocialize the way she wanted to. She
only got to connect once with DollyTodd Madison, who the Todd family liked
to think connected her that Todd name. But meanwhile she was someone I think
who could not always hold her tongue, could not always hold her temper.
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That she believed that she knew best. We have letters she wrote politicians in
New York during Lincoln's reelection where shetells them to burn the letter, and
she also says that Lincoln is toosoft on certain issues. And she had
a very very shall we say,strategic attitude of making promises and then encouraging
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her husband to deliver et cetera.So that Lincoln was a very free,
willing politician is something I think manypeople didn't really think about in terms of
his popular reputation. But I dothink that Spielberg's Lincoln shows a side of
that that gives us really a morehuman, potential dimension of Lincoln's feelings.
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And that he and his wife wouldbe sitting around discussing these kinds of things.
I think is really part and parcelof their bond, their marriage.
That she gave him the yeast torise. Although no, and I know
you were a consultable two of Spielberg'sLincoln, And I really like Sally Field's
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amazing a trayal of Mary. Imean it was more human and it showed
her strength and her frustration. Howdo you think Mary felt about his politics?
I mean, here she is.You said her grandmother had manumitted her
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enslaved people, but she is froma part of the world that had been
in slavers. I know he startedout as a waged She was close to
play, was she not, Yes, very much so, and she I
would say that. I think overthe course of the war, her politics
hardened, and women all across thenation were being divided. That is,
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their fathers might have been Confederates andtheir husbands might have been Unionists, and
that is something that Mary Lincoln hadbrothers in law serving in the Confederate Army.
Even a favorite brother in law wasinvited by Lincoln to be in a
prominent position in the Union government,and he turned it down and went off
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with Kentucky. This was ben Helmand her favorite sister, Emila, who
she called little Sister, and Lincolndid too. So the Divided Families shows
what went on. But she wasabsolutely staunchly in favor. And we also
see some indication that she was incrediblyprogressive in terms of Washington politics, in
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that the minute her husband was inaugurated, the first inauguration, she went out
and hired a dressmaker, and thatwas Elizabeth Keckley. And Elizabeth Keckley was
a prominent modiste in Washington, andshe dressed all the finest ladies, and
therefore Mary Lincoln wanted her. Andover the course of the war, first
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Elizabeth Keckley lost her son at theBattle of Wilson's Creek. Then the next
year Mary Lincoln lost her son Williein the White House. So the two
of them really bonded in their brief, in their resolve, in their involvement,
and Elizabeth got Mary involved in manycharities and many means of helping in
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the contraband camps, and I thinkwe see her being more open. There
was a great contretempt when Kate Chase, Chase's daughter, the Treasurer's daughter,
spread a rumor about Mary putting onairs, and those heirs were that she
greeted an African American woman who visitedthe White House and she bade her goodbye
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and shook her hand, which wasconsidered quite amazing at that time. And
I think that Mary became quite closeto the Slade family who were working within
the White House. Their children playedwith her children, So in some ways
she had very progressive use. Inother ways she did remain extremely Southern and
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very much geared to protocol. Atthe same time, I think her personal
relations were such that she did seethe wisdom of emancipation, and she very
much pushed this notion of her husband'sprimary role in it. And I've read,
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yes that there was suspicion about herbecause she was the daughter of enslavers.
He came from such a family,But then, of course, so
was Julia Grant. It's curious tome because of the country. The three
principal players to bring the capitol tothe Chesapeake region were all in slavers.
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It's such a part of the earlyAmerican experience. Why particularly single them out,
you know, especially since Lincoln hastaken these not an abolitionist but a
very staunch stand in opposition to slavery. Why do you think they picked on
her for this reason? Well?I think because it was. The reason
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was that it could be thought ofthat there was going to be a reckoning
and what would that reckoning be,and would we be able to reconcile?
And wasn't someone like Mary Lincoln theperfect example of someone who had Southern roots
and Union attitudes and how were wegoing to be able to come together mercifully?
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But I think she also represented someonewho was targeted for her politics.
My good friend Doris Hearnce Goodwin says, if you want to burn down the
house, you start with the thatch. And therefore, attacking Mary Lincoln,
which was quite constant in the Washingtonpress, was a way of undermining Abraham
Lincoln and him being hauled in frontof Congress to discuss financial issues of the
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White House accounts, etc. Isa way of course of needling at the
White House and its policies. Soshe was really someone always being subject to
these kinds of criticisms. At thesame time, I believe that she also,
as a Southern woman, believed youdidn't get your name in the papers
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unless she were born, married,and died. So many times some of
the local politicos wanted her to giveinterviews, wanted her to be followed around
by a woman journalist, and shedid at one point give in and give
interviews to a prominent deaf woman journalistat the time. But she didn't believe
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in highlighting her charity work. Soshe was someone who did not really take
part in what we would call traditionalpolitics. There was one time, I
think, when Lincoln wanted to pardona soldier who was being he was going
to be executed for desertion of duty, and she said, well just say
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that, Madam, President advised younot to do that. So once in
a while enter into politics, butreally not often. However, we do
know behind the scenes she was greatfriends with Sumner. Charles Sumner came to
the White House to visit her moreoften than Abraham Lincoln, and she was
someone who did enjoy the gossip.Everyone had to come to her. I
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think we forget that in the nineteenthcentury there were certain rules in Washington,
and you must know, Madam Mayor, that the Washington social scene can be
quite restricted. So during her day, the people who were there for a
long time, well established, wereactually called the cave dwellers. Yeah,
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the people who came through. Peoplewho came through were called money bags.
And now at the same time,Mary didn't have access to either of them.
People had to come to the WhiteHouse. She could only send out
her relatives and friends to visit andbring home the gossip to her. Well
we know years later. I mean, there are certain women that have been
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the target of that kind of criticisms, such as Hillary Clinton. But how
about predating Mary Lincoln. I mean, probably they weren't there long enough.
Abigail Adams certainly had tremendous influence,so were her husband, Yes, but
maybe they she knew how to playthe game better, and she wasn't there
long enough. They were DC maybea few months was there. Sarah Poake
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was her husband's campaign manager, andthey were a very successful sadly childless,
but a very successful marriage, andI think that she was the first woman
we see operating at that level.And at the same time, when Mary
Lincoln did try to operate at thatlevel, both behind the scenes and someone
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who was quite forceful in her viewswho her husband should appoint. I mean,
she was writing him from the roadwhen she went east on his appointments,
because she thought that anyone who hadcrossed him in the past should not
go forward. So she did haveher lists and she kept them very tightly.
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And then upon the horrific occasion ofhis assassination, she really tried to
gain much control because she felt asif her husband had sacrificed his life for
politics, he was the martyr presidentand as his widow, she would become
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first widow and take on that role. And that's when I think her reputation
suffered the most, because she didassert again and again that he said,
and she supported the Emancipation Proclamation andthe Thirteenth Amendment were his greatest achievements.
And she gave caines to Frederick Douglass. She gave silver to Elizabeth Keckley,
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which ended up being auctioned to supportWilberforce. So she really did try and
tie her husband to the legacy ofblack freedom. And but you know,
people such as Jacqueline Kennedy was knewsomehow knew how to manipulate the moment.
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You know, they they it wasa different era, but television was playing
a different kind of role. Butyou know, you had a different kind
of community, more more dramatic communicationfor that period with Civil War to telegraph
and so forth, that they reflectedyou. When you look back on it,
you really realize how depth Jacqueline Kennedywas in establishing Camelot, this notion
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of Camelot. Although and and andand ultimately, I mean clearly Lincoln enjoys
a semi deity status, uh inthe hearts of American but poor Mary suffers.
Let me ask you about also whenWillie dies eleven years old, which
was devastating for both feelings Abraham Lincolnand apparently I think he stayed in every
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Thursday, the date the Thursday whenhe died. He would isolate himself for
a period of time, and she, of course was inconsolable. What was
intriguing for many of us is todiscover that she turned to psychics. And
I don't think she was unique inturning to psychics. But could you elaborate
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along that Well, I think wedon't really appreciate that spiritualism was this marvelous
new cult that was growing in America, and at the beginning of the Civil
War, you could really claim thatthere were about a million spiritualists, including
New York Supreme Court justices, includingprimarily women, because certainly the loss of
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children was so devastating to mothers.We know that the infant mortality rate was,
you know, skyrocketing, and thenwe know, along comes the Civil
War with hundreds of thousands of sons, brothers dying. So certainly spiritualism was
a way of connecting. And Iremember once when I was writing by Mary
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Lincoln, and I was sitting abroadteaching in Ireland, and all at once
I got a message a DM frommy son in Washington where he works,
and I thought, oh, mygoodness, this is I'm connecting. How
do I know I'm connecting? Remember, the telegraph was this great miracle of
the eighteen fifties, and so Ithink people believe that they could telegraph to
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the spiritual world by means of aseance or a spiritualist. So Mary Lincoln
in her grief and desperation reached outin the summer of eighteen sixty two,
and there were society women who participatedgreatly in these. Missus Greeley, Horace,
Greeley's wife and the Beacher's sisters reallydid have a sense, although they
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might scorn it as fake, andindeed Abraham Lincoln had to at one point
enlist the head of the Smithsonian toinvestigate a rather shady character named Colchester that
was coming around the White House.But in other ways we see that a
woman named Nellie Colburn was a kindof society doyen who was able to call
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people to her Georgetown home and communicatewith the dead. That was the notion,
And when Emily Helm came to theWhite House after her husband had been
killed and was a grieving widow,Mary confided to her that she'd been able
to not only communicate with her deadson Willie, but also her son Eddie
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who died years before four year andher brother Alex. And Emily of course
became quite alarmed at what she feltwas Mary's mental instability, and therefore there
were many rumors about her mental stateduring that period, which of course blew
up in the post war era,when she was rightly judged incompetent by her
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son and put into an asylum fora period of a year. You think
right you think say rightly he rightlyclaimed her incompetent. That is something I
think we have to say how hewent about, how he went about the
kangaroo court of men, and thathe was unable to place her with a
relative but rather put her in aninstitution rather than a family home, which
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was quite common during that era.But I, in my book trace a
deterioration, and at the same time, a lot of her deterioration can be
traced to other kinds of issues.I believe that she was somewhat over using
medication and mixing it with alcohol.And I remember reading an Oliver Sach's column
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that clued me into what might happenif you mix these two. And I
thought she also suffered from violent migraines. So when she said there was an
Indian inside her head pushing out needles, well, any of us who've ever
suffered a migrain might say that itdoes look quite similar to torture. At
the same time, the way inwhich she has been classified as as you
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said, at the beginning to useyour own words, Madame Mayor, a
nutjob or insane, And I say, well, she did go through a
lot that we could discuss at length, but I won't. I'll just say
that, remember that mister Lincoln atone point in his Springfield career became so
low that his friends went to hisroom and took away the razors. They
(30:52):
believed he might have been suicidal.And in many cases I have seen Lincoln
put up in in care facilities andviewed as someone who suffered from the blues,
who suffered from depression, and overcamehis ills to become the great leader.
Whereas someone like Mary Lincoln, whohad three of her four sons died,
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she was at their side for allthree of those deaths, and we
look and see her husband was murderedin front of extor. The most awful
I mean you're high, is thatyou've survived the war and you're on a
carry tribe and you're planning your future. And that night you go to the
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theater because it's something that diverts himand it's something that cheers him. And
they go and they play the songto welcome him, and they see a
comedy and they're laughing, and duringone of the highest laughters, a shot
rings ound. His blood is splatteredon her, taken across the street to
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die in a boarding house. Allthe men surround him, and she is
not even allowed to be by hisside, which in nineteenth century family maternal
lore, women were to be thereto help spirit their loved ones to the
next world. And she was Stantonwho made that decision. Was it Stanton
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who put her out of the room? Yes, take that woman out of
here? Why but because she wastoo distraught, she was too hysterical,
and there weren't enough people to reallycontrol her at that time. And he
of course was looking at the factthat reports were coming in. And we
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do know that it was not onlyLincoln's assassination, but it was a plot,
a coup to overthrow the government andreignite the war. So indeed,
it was a night that we haveto say, was you know a turning
point in American history? That theweekend of Easter in eighteen sixty five was
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a defining point. But for example, when people say that Mary was so
unstable, I found an interesting patternthat they were looking at the date the
president died, which is an importantdate. Never the Friday on that day
died. He died the next dayon Easter Saturday, so that date is
important. But I found a patternin her that she suffered on Easter because
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she called him the martyr President.She identified him, and therefore her waves
of memory and her waves of hysteriamight come back to her over the Easter
period. And then there was sheherself had been in the carriage that had
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been deliberately disabled, and it wasa pretty horrific accident, and I guess
it was designed to kill Lincoln andpossibly Mary as well. Well. It
was Lincoln's carriage that he used togo to the White House, but she
happened to take it, and whenthey discovered this evidence, it was covered
up. It is not a wellpublicized fact, but we do have evidence
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that it was something. And imagineLincoln feeling that his wife was nearly killed
by this attempt on his life.She then became so very demanding that there
be Metropolitan Police, which was anew Washington I believe it was introduced during
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the Civil War. And also thatwe have guard Secret Service to look after
him, moving from the Pinkerton role. So we do know that the protection
of the president was something that strengthenedduring the war but failed failed on Good
Friday. Absolutely, you know,it's really quite an extraordinary week to me.
(34:58):
I mean that Appomatics is on PalmSunday, and it's Lincoln's remarks on
the fourteenth of April that where Boothmoves from kidnapping to murder. Yes,
and that by chance Booth just happensto go to the fourth Head to get
his male and decides this is thenight it's and then the country gathers on
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Easter. It's not surprising that Lincoln, you know, enjoys almost a semi
deity status. Well say that onApril eleventh, he gave a speech from
the White House, and in thatspeech he spoke directly about African Americans who
would take it arms and therefore thosewho were veterans, those who were educated
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should have the right of suffrage.So I believe he made his first,
not his first batism, certainly hismost important civil rights speech at that moment.
And Booth was allegedly someone who overheardhis remarks and said that would be
the last speech he ever gave.Now, I found that chilling. That,
(36:08):
yes, that that he went rightafter appomatics and Richmond, and then
he makes these remarks he who wasagainst slavery but not an abolitionists, had
come of light years who really wantingthe franchise for these black soldiers and a
few others. But yeah, thatthat was the turning point. It's it's
(36:30):
a it's a real it's almost likeGreek drama. This how this how,
this entire dynamic unfolds. And Ithink that's why we still play it today
that way, don't you that wesee these as an issue moving into a
moral a moral kind of All conflicts, of course, have to do with
(36:51):
politics and economies and other issues.But Lincoln was someone who set forth a
moral course. And his second Inauguralis a very beautiful, a very moving
indictment. And yet the Gettysburg Address, his most famous speech, is where
he's moving toward healing and all thosehe died must be redeemed by liberty and
(37:17):
justice for all. Well, Ido think he I mean, I don't
think I fully appreciated until this seriesto what extent Lincoln played such a dominant
role in establishing the principles of Declarationof Independence as our mantra. Because he
knew the Constitution wouldn't work, especiallyin that he was moving the country to
(37:40):
a higher moral ground with the notionof emancipation. And here we are about
to celebrate America two fifty and whatis the defining document Not the Constitution,
which is binding, but rather theDeclaration of Independence. And I just think
that is entire that you have toattribute to Lincoln all those influenced him.
(38:04):
And certainly we acknowledge that, butyou have to. It is a moral
drama, and it's a moral dramathat we're still working our way through even
in the twenty first century. Butit's a defining moment in American history.
They are those who say, youdon't understand America if you don't understand the
war. Would you share that thinking? I definitely do. My other I
(38:30):
guess my other thinking is that genderplays such an important role in the way
we reflect on all these issues,much like race. But I am really
really shocked at so many of theLincoln biographers. I often call the biographers
and the other writers Lincolnistas, becauseof course, in two thousand and nine,
(38:51):
the year of Lincoln's birth, byCentennial was a book a week was
being published on Lincoln, and inall of that found so many that were
taking these very critical views of MaryLincoln, saying he never loved her,
he pined for his and rutledge hissweetheart of his youth, etc. And
(39:13):
I really took umbrage by saying,we think of Lincoln as one of the
great thinkers, as one of thegreat strategists, as someone who really was
a great judge of character, agreat person for humor, a great person
for intelligence. He had emotional intelligencebeyond what we could imagine in his era.
And yet we think that he wasmarried to someone who was not lovable,
(39:38):
who was not a companion, whowas not a beloved, who he
didn't share so many values with.Therefore, I think we need to really
reevaluate missus Lincoln and see her assomeone who was much misunderstood, and then
also to give a little more sympathyto what she suffered in her loss,
(39:59):
because from the moment of his death, she wore black the rest of her
life, except for one day whenher son Tad said, we wear something
else, some other color on mybirthday. But she was in mourning,
and I think part of her mourningis something you said earlier, Mayor Pratt.
I do want to correct a bitand say that Lincoln became someone who
(40:22):
eclipsed Washington's reputation and legacy at theturn of the twentieth century. So it
took a concerted effort on the partof people like Missus Lincoln and many of
his supporters to see him in thisheroic light that actually his press and his
(40:43):
reputation was one that people like HoraceGreeley said, will rise. The further
way you get from his life,you will see his greatness. And I
think that this is something that wastrue and she achieved. And as you
say, for our two hundred andfiftieth we have to look back and say,
who defines the nation? Who gaveus the words and the spirit of
(41:07):
freedom to continue the great journey topolishing and cherishing democracy, which is something
that's such a good lesson for usin twenty twenty four. Now, that's
why we're so appreciative of having USAas a guest, because I very much
agree with you, and though Ihave maybe at once I referenced it second
(41:30):
to George Washington, but I dothink you're right. He eclipsed George Washington,
and he is the one who definesagain that we're celebrating America two fifty
because he is the one, morethan the author Arbert Thomas Jefferson, who
made the Declaration of Independence, thoseprinciples the man mantra for this country.
(41:52):
And it's very easy to get abum rap in this town, especially a
woman who doesn't fit prototype of whatWashington, d C. The nation power
brokers think she ought to be.So she had a tough time. She
certainly did have a tough time postthe assassination and having to be institutionalizable.
(42:15):
Ultimately, I know that she wasliberated from that experience, but I am
very grateful to have you amplify herstory and enlighteness regarding her story and recognized
he could hardly have been the greatman that he was had he not had
a helpful partner, and she certainlywas that. However contentious it may have
(42:38):
been at times, however rambunctious shemay have been at times, she was
clearly someone who believed in him,possibly more than he believed in himself for
a while. So thank you somuch, Professor Catherine Clinton. You have
enriched this conversation and very much enhancedour understand of Abraham Lincoln and the woman
(43:01):
in his life. Mary Todd likeit. Thank you, thank you for
your series, and keep up thegreat work.
Welcome everyone. I'm Sharon. I'mthe founding director of the Institute of Politics,
Policy and History. We call itIPPH, and I'm also the former
mayor of Washington, d C.And you can learn more about IPPH at
IPPH dot org. And we aretruly thrilled that we have the perfect guests
(00:21):
for our conversation today, and thatis Professor Catherine Clinton. And she is
quite the pioneering historian regarding women,American women and the South and the Civil
War and also a recipient of theGuggenheim Award. She's got over thirty books
(00:45):
focused particularly on American women's especially inthe South, including Harriet Tubman. And
our focus for today of Mary.And I'm going to say Mary Todd Lincoln.
I've seen you talk about that,how we call her married Todd Lincoln,
and so it's a real treat.And let me just also add as
(01:06):
a preface that this series about definingFather's Legacy series is about those Americans who
played such a pivotal role in Washington, d C. Becoming a significant metropolist.
And clearly the catalyst for all ofthis was the Civil War. So
not surprisingly these three are Abraham LincolnFrederick Douglas and Ulysses Grant. And today
(01:33):
we're still talking about the president whowas the one who had to prosecute that
war. And we also want tomake certain that when we talk about these
individuals, they're not monuments, butthey're people. And in order to understand
Abraham Lincoln, we need to understandpeople who were part of this life.
And no one was more a partof his life than his wife, Mary
(02:00):
Lincoln. And we have a perfectguest to help us understand this individual.
Thank you so much, Professor Clintonfor being here today. Thank you so
much, Madam Mayor. It's agreat pleasure to be able to discuss someone
I've lived with for many years.It's been fifteen years since my book was
published, but I still feel thatMary Lincoln gets a bad rap from too
(02:23):
many historians, and it's great tobe able to talk about her, especially
in relationship to these three gentlemen,because she did have a connection to all
three of them a closer. Herclosest connection was to Abraham Lincoln. But
I also write in my book aboutthe fact that she was someone who forged
the reputation of Lincoln as an emancipator. She was someone who gave gifts to
(02:47):
Frederick Douglas in the wake of herhusband's death and assassination. And I don't
think she ever really got over therole of Ulysses S. Grant, who
she referred to as a butcher.She was not happy at all with his
role, but she was a greatsupport to her husband throughout those long dark
(03:07):
days of the Civil War. Well, you know, yes, I also
have the view that she's gotten areally bum wrapped and nobody's one dimensional.
I mean, they really paint heras just this nutcase who is a source
of consternation to Abraham Lincoln. Whatmy question would be, Let's begin with
(03:30):
what was her life like? Youknow, she was a woman who was
born to some privilege, a familyof enslavers, and I gather a woman
whose intelligence was nurtured to some extent. Could you give us a sense of
her background. Yes, she wasborn into a bluegrass Kentucky family, and
(03:51):
she had ambassadors and senators and governorsall connected to her by blood. Her
own indeed was a slaveholder, butduring her youth her mother died at a
young age, and she very muchwas raised by a grandmother. That grand
mother happened to emancipate her slaves,as did the mother of her stepmother,
(04:14):
So she was in a border state, in a state where slavery was a
contentious issue. She grew up alsosomeone who was used to the early marriage,
which was quite common among Southern Bellsat that time. But she got
twelve years of education in Madame Taliban'sacademy in Lexington, Kentucky. And when
(04:39):
her older sister went off to Illinoisand married the son of the governor,
she followed her there, as didanother sister. And while she was there
she happened to encounter a young,strapping politician named Abraham Lincoln. Now,
well, she quoted, but Imean I thought i'd read where she was
quoted by Douglass Stephen Douglass's why isthat true? Well, Stephen Douglas was
(05:02):
at many of the levies and partiesshe was at, and so indeed it
makes a great story to say howwell connected she was. That at the
time of the eighteen sixty election shewas married to one of the candidates,
she had been romanced by another,and she was related to the breck and
(05:23):
Riches as well. There was justone candidate who got the lowest number of
votes, I might add, whowas not connected to Mary Lincoln. So
she was in an influential political family, and she loved politics, and she
married at a relatively late date comparedto the women of her cohort. But
(05:46):
she was a good reader, sheloved poetry, she loved politics, and
she and Lincoln very much discussed manyof the politics of the day. So
what do you think I mean ofpressure? One guess is that she was
drawn to him because she saw hispotential. Is that true? And would
you say that he saw how shecould enhance that potential. I was quite
(06:12):
shocked when I was reading the localpapers in Springfield for my biography, and
I saw that Lincoln was being attackedas a bluestocking because he was married to
a member of the Todd family,and because of course marrying up was quite
a great tradition in that era.We do have many politicians who are known
(06:35):
as great fire eaters and Southerners,like James Henry Hammond who proclaimed slavery as
king, but he himself was fromNew Hampshire and married into a Southern family.
So people accused Lincoln of that.But eventually his own politics came out.
He gained confidence with his marriage toMary, because she did see him
(06:58):
and spoke about him as a diamondin the rough and one that was to
be polished, and that was whatshe spent much of her time in early
marriage doing. She was incredibly ambitiousfor him, and she used to go
to the gallery at the Statehouse inIllinois to hear the speeches and observe him.
She was indeed someone who was justentranced with a her husband and b
(07:24):
politics. Now, she seemed tohave been quite interested in politics for what
I can discern. And he wouldhave had to have somebody who was in
a position to affirm to have theaudacity to see the presidency. I would
think some man who's born in alog cabin, I mean a literal log
cabin was no floor, no windowat one point. I mean, it
(07:46):
really takes the leap of faith tothink you could go from there to be
president of the United States. Andshe has to be that nexus. But
do you think I'm giving her toomuch credit? Well, I think that
the right to rise was something thatwas emerging in American politics at the time.
But Lincoln really needed the support andthe love that he'd been deprived of
(08:11):
his early life. Was so ramshackleand so rough. His father didn't approve
of education. It was his stepmotherwho really nurtured that. Mary and a
both lost their mothers at a youngage, and her tenderness and her kindness
was something He always referred to heras mother, and I think that was
very telling, because she did nurturehis talent. He also was a great
(08:35):
order and all of his speeches hewould practice by speaking them aloud. So
it was said that their dinner tableand their breakfast table was full of him
orating and her gently urging him on. She would also urge him on to
wear socks that match, to notsprawl on the floor with the boys playing
(08:56):
when politicians came to visit, andindeed their home was well featured during the
campaign. We today think of politicalcampaigns in terms of running toward the convention
and speech making, and it wasquite a shock again to discover that even
this great orator didn't speak from thetime of his at the time of his
(09:20):
nomination until his election. And soit was Mary's job to entertain the reporters
in Springfield, keep them happily fed, and libations were liberally passed out at
that time as I'm sure they stillare, but it was really Mary's charm
and grace that won people over inperson. However, in the press,
(09:45):
I have to say they were mostunkind and attacked her. And when she
first went to Washington, it wasthe niece of President Buchanan who said she's
awfully western, so loud and unrefined. Because both and Lincoln were the first
couple to be born outside of thethirteen original state, Yeah, yeah,
(10:07):
so Lincoln really signaled a new kindof political man, a new kind of
political state. Well, from ourvantage point for what we're doing at IPPH,
when we looked at the three individualswho were pivotal to the capital being
established in the South, they're allthree of them are planters. They're all
(10:28):
three men of privilege. And herethe three that are pivotal to the dramatic
growth of the capital also emblematic ofwhat's going on in America. All three
of them are men who are bornto almost nothing. In fact, Frederick
Douglas less than nothing, Ulysses S. Grant and you know Abraham Lincoln,
(10:50):
and all three of them seemingly whereI said, married up in a way
that was important. Yes, Butwhat do you think that they think that.
Sorry, maybe I say maybe Grantand Lincoln forged that bond because both
of them were men who married womenwho made such an important difference in their
lives. No one really believed inGrant early on, but Julia did,
(11:15):
and Julia really pushed him, andI think that in that they might have
seen a bond that they each roseincredibly and gained such insight and such leadership
talent during the Civil War, onemilitarily the other politically. No. Absolutely,
and the same really for Frederick Douglas. He's enslaved. He marries a
(11:37):
woman who's free, I mean,without her enterprise and resources, he never
would have been able to escape.So absolutely. At one time Lincoln and
Mary Todd were engaged and then theengagement was broken off, and some say
that foreshadowed some of the a contentiousrelationship. That's your take on that.
(12:01):
My take is that he was veryunsure about marriage completely. He was confiding
in his great friend Joshua Speed oncehe married, to find out if it
really brought him happiness, if itreally was fulfilling. In the town of
Springfield, there were many bells tochoose from, and a parade of women
(12:22):
coming through, and Lincoln was quitepopular with older women who frequently matched him
up with younger women, and Ithink he had a few voibles along the
way, but realized after a periodof time that Mary was someone who had
stayed faithful to him in thought.Indeed, even after she was being ridiculed
(12:43):
around the town for someone because hehad broken off with her. They didn't
see one another for over a year, and then in November he proposed and
they were married within a few days, and that really, I think got
the gossips going. There are somewho even suggest that perhaps she was pregnant,
but we have no evidence of that. We know that a child was
born nine months later, which isvery very common in nineteenth century America.
(13:09):
No, I did read that recentlythat she had seduced her and that that's
how she was able to secure thatmarriage. Well, she was the object
of criticism. Is that that shejust did not have finesse to work the
(13:31):
opinion makers, the thought leaders ofWashington, d c. Or was it
that she just had a rambunctious personality. She was someone I have to credit
her with a tremendous temper and alsothe memory of an elephant, because she
never forgave one of her bridesmaids whosehusband went on Lyman Trumbull to become the
(13:54):
Senator over Lincoln, and she reallyblamed his wife. How does that happen?
Because she believe that the wife behindthe man was really the one responsible
to scheme and dream and therefore shereally did believe that she was a force
to contend with. When Lincoln wasfirst elected to Congress and she went east
(14:16):
to Washington, it was a terribledisappointment. She lived in a boarding house
with two young children. She couldn'tsocialize the way she wanted to. She
only got to connect once with DollyTodd Madison, who the Todd family liked
to think connected her that Todd name. But meanwhile she was someone I think
who could not always hold her tongue, could not always hold her temper.
(14:39):
That she believed that she knew best. We have letters she wrote politicians in
New York during Lincoln's reelection where shetells them to burn the letter, and
she also says that Lincoln is toosoft on certain issues. And she had
a very very shall we say,strategic attitude of making promises and then encouraging
(15:07):
her husband to deliver et cetera.So that Lincoln was a very free,
willing politician is something I think manypeople didn't really think about in terms of
his popular reputation. But I dothink that Spielberg's Lincoln shows a side of
that that gives us really a morehuman, potential dimension of Lincoln's feelings.
(15:28):
And that he and his wife wouldbe sitting around discussing these kinds of things.
I think is really part and parcelof their bond, their marriage.
That she gave him the yeast torise. Although no, and I know
you were a consultable two of Spielberg'sLincoln, And I really like Sally Field's
(15:50):
amazing a trayal of Mary. Imean it was more human and it showed
her strength and her frustration. Howdo you think Mary felt about his politics?
I mean, here she is.You said her grandmother had manumitted her
(16:12):
enslaved people, but she is froma part of the world that had been
in slavers. I know he startedout as a waged She was close to
play, was she not, Yes, very much so, and she I
would say that. I think overthe course of the war, her politics
hardened, and women all across thenation were being divided. That is,
(16:36):
their fathers might have been Confederates andtheir husbands might have been Unionists, and
that is something that Mary Lincoln hadbrothers in law serving in the Confederate Army.
Even a favorite brother in law wasinvited by Lincoln to be in a
prominent position in the Union government,and he turned it down and went off
(16:57):
with Kentucky. This was ben Helmand her favorite sister, Emila, who
she called little Sister, and Lincolndid too. So the Divided Families shows
what went on. But she wasabsolutely staunchly in favor. And we also
see some indication that she was incrediblyprogressive in terms of Washington politics, in
(17:21):
that the minute her husband was inaugurated, the first inauguration, she went out
and hired a dressmaker, and thatwas Elizabeth Keckley. And Elizabeth Keckley was
a prominent modiste in Washington, andshe dressed all the finest ladies, and
therefore Mary Lincoln wanted her. Andover the course of the war, first
(17:41):
Elizabeth Keckley lost her son at theBattle of Wilson's Creek. Then the next
year Mary Lincoln lost her son Williein the White House. So the two
of them really bonded in their brief, in their resolve, in their involvement,
and Elizabeth got Mary involved in manycharities and many means of helping in
(18:04):
the contraband camps, and I thinkwe see her being more open. There
was a great contretempt when Kate Chase, Chase's daughter, the Treasurer's daughter,
spread a rumor about Mary putting onairs, and those heirs were that she
greeted an African American woman who visitedthe White House and she bade her goodbye
(18:29):
and shook her hand, which wasconsidered quite amazing at that time. And
I think that Mary became quite closeto the Slade family who were working within
the White House. Their children playedwith her children, So in some ways
she had very progressive use. Inother ways she did remain extremely Southern and
(18:53):
very much geared to protocol. Atthe same time, I think her personal
relations were such that she did seethe wisdom of emancipation, and she very
much pushed this notion of her husband'sprimary role in it. And I've read,
(19:14):
yes that there was suspicion about herbecause she was the daughter of enslavers.
He came from such a family,But then, of course, so
was Julia Grant. It's curious tome because of the country. The three
principal players to bring the capitol tothe Chesapeake region were all in slavers.
(19:38):
It's such a part of the earlyAmerican experience. Why particularly single them out,
you know, especially since Lincoln hastaken these not an abolitionist but a
very staunch stand in opposition to slavery. Why do you think they picked on
her for this reason? Well?I think because it was. The reason
(20:00):
was that it could be thought ofthat there was going to be a reckoning
and what would that reckoning be,and would we be able to reconcile?
And wasn't someone like Mary Lincoln theperfect example of someone who had Southern roots
and Union attitudes and how were wegoing to be able to come together mercifully?
(20:22):
But I think she also represented someonewho was targeted for her politics.
My good friend Doris Hearnce Goodwin says, if you want to burn down the
house, you start with the thatch. And therefore, attacking Mary Lincoln,
which was quite constant in the Washingtonpress, was a way of undermining Abraham
Lincoln and him being hauled in frontof Congress to discuss financial issues of the
(20:48):
White House accounts, etc. Isa way of course of needling at the
White House and its policies. Soshe was really someone always being subject to
these kinds of criticisms. At thesame time, I believe that she also,
as a Southern woman, believed youdidn't get your name in the papers
(21:10):
unless she were born, married,and died. So many times some of
the local politicos wanted her to giveinterviews, wanted her to be followed around
by a woman journalist, and shedid at one point give in and give
interviews to a prominent deaf woman journalistat the time. But she didn't believe
(21:32):
in highlighting her charity work. Soshe was someone who did not really take
part in what we would call traditionalpolitics. There was one time, I
think, when Lincoln wanted to pardona soldier who was being he was going
to be executed for desertion of duty, and she said, well just say
(21:56):
that, Madam, President advised younot to do that. So once in
a while enter into politics, butreally not often. However, we do
know behind the scenes she was greatfriends with Sumner. Charles Sumner came to
the White House to visit her moreoften than Abraham Lincoln, and she was
someone who did enjoy the gossip.Everyone had to come to her. I
(22:18):
think we forget that in the nineteenthcentury there were certain rules in Washington,
and you must know, Madam Mayor, that the Washington social scene can be
quite restricted. So during her day, the people who were there for a
long time, well established, wereactually called the cave dwellers. Yeah,
(22:40):
the people who came through. Peoplewho came through were called money bags.
And now at the same time,Mary didn't have access to either of them.
People had to come to the WhiteHouse. She could only send out
her relatives and friends to visit andbring home the gossip to her. Well
we know years later. I mean, there are certain women that have been
(23:00):
the target of that kind of criticisms, such as Hillary Clinton. But how
about predating Mary Lincoln. I mean, probably they weren't there long enough.
Abigail Adams certainly had tremendous influence,so were her husband, Yes, but
maybe they she knew how to playthe game better, and she wasn't there
long enough. They were DC maybea few months was there. Sarah Poake
(23:26):
was her husband's campaign manager, andthey were a very successful sadly childless,
but a very successful marriage, andI think that she was the first woman
we see operating at that level.And at the same time, when Mary
Lincoln did try to operate at thatlevel, both behind the scenes and someone
(23:48):
who was quite forceful in her viewswho her husband should appoint. I mean,
she was writing him from the roadwhen she went east on his appointments,
because she thought that anyone who hadcrossed him in the past should not
go forward. So she did haveher lists and she kept them very tightly.
(24:10):
And then upon the horrific occasion ofhis assassination, she really tried to
gain much control because she felt asif her husband had sacrificed his life for
politics, he was the martyr presidentand as his widow, she would become
(24:30):
first widow and take on that role. And that's when I think her reputation
suffered the most, because she didassert again and again that he said,
and she supported the Emancipation Proclamation andthe Thirteenth Amendment were his greatest achievements.
And she gave caines to Frederick Douglass. She gave silver to Elizabeth Keckley,
(24:56):
which ended up being auctioned to supportWilberforce. So she really did try and
tie her husband to the legacy ofblack freedom. And but you know,
people such as Jacqueline Kennedy was knewsomehow knew how to manipulate the moment.
(25:17):
You know, they they it wasa different era, but television was playing
a different kind of role. Butyou know, you had a different kind
of community, more more dramatic communicationfor that period with Civil War to telegraph
and so forth, that they reflectedyou. When you look back on it,
you really realize how depth Jacqueline Kennedywas in establishing Camelot, this notion
(25:41):
of Camelot. Although and and andand ultimately, I mean clearly Lincoln enjoys
a semi deity status, uh inthe hearts of American but poor Mary suffers.
Let me ask you about also whenWillie dies eleven years old, which
was devastating for both feelings Abraham Lincolnand apparently I think he stayed in every
(26:08):
Thursday, the date the Thursday whenhe died. He would isolate himself for
a period of time, and she, of course was inconsolable. What was
intriguing for many of us is todiscover that she turned to psychics. And
I don't think she was unique inturning to psychics. But could you elaborate
(26:30):
along that Well, I think wedon't really appreciate that spiritualism was this marvelous
new cult that was growing in America, and at the beginning of the Civil
War, you could really claim thatthere were about a million spiritualists, including
New York Supreme Court justices, includingprimarily women, because certainly the loss of
(26:55):
children was so devastating to mothers.We know that the infant mortality rate was,
you know, skyrocketing, and thenwe know, along comes the Civil
War with hundreds of thousands of sons, brothers dying. So certainly spiritualism was
a way of connecting. And Iremember once when I was writing by Mary
(27:15):
Lincoln, and I was sitting abroadteaching in Ireland, and all at once
I got a message a DM frommy son in Washington where he works,
and I thought, oh, mygoodness, this is I'm connecting. How
do I know I'm connecting? Remember, the telegraph was this great miracle of
the eighteen fifties, and so Ithink people believe that they could telegraph to
(27:37):
the spiritual world by means of aseance or a spiritualist. So Mary Lincoln
in her grief and desperation reached outin the summer of eighteen sixty two,
and there were society women who participatedgreatly in these. Missus Greeley, Horace,
Greeley's wife and the Beacher's sisters reallydid have a sense, although they
(28:02):
might scorn it as fake, andindeed Abraham Lincoln had to at one point
enlist the head of the Smithsonian toinvestigate a rather shady character named Colchester that
was coming around the White House.But in other ways we see that a
woman named Nellie Colburn was a kindof society doyen who was able to call
(28:22):
people to her Georgetown home and communicatewith the dead. That was the notion,
And when Emily Helm came to theWhite House after her husband had been
killed and was a grieving widow,Mary confided to her that she'd been able
to not only communicate with her deadson Willie, but also her son Eddie
(28:47):
who died years before four year andher brother Alex. And Emily of course
became quite alarmed at what she feltwas Mary's mental instability, and therefore there
were many rumors about her mental stateduring that period, which of course blew
up in the post war era,when she was rightly judged incompetent by her
(29:14):
son and put into an asylum fora period of a year. You think
right you think say rightly he rightlyclaimed her incompetent. That is something I
think we have to say how hewent about, how he went about the
kangaroo court of men, and thathe was unable to place her with a
relative but rather put her in aninstitution rather than a family home, which
(29:38):
was quite common during that era.But I, in my book trace a
deterioration, and at the same time, a lot of her deterioration can be
traced to other kinds of issues.I believe that she was somewhat over using
medication and mixing it with alcohol.And I remember reading an Oliver Sach's column
(30:03):
that clued me into what might happenif you mix these two. And I
thought she also suffered from violent migraines. So when she said there was an
Indian inside her head pushing out needles, well, any of us who've ever
suffered a migrain might say that itdoes look quite similar to torture. At
the same time, the way inwhich she has been classified as as you
(30:29):
said, at the beginning to useyour own words, Madame Mayor, a
nutjob or insane, And I say, well, she did go through a
lot that we could discuss at length, but I won't. I'll just say
that, remember that mister Lincoln atone point in his Springfield career became so
low that his friends went to hisroom and took away the razors. They
(30:52):
believed he might have been suicidal.And in many cases I have seen Lincoln
put up in in care facilities andviewed as someone who suffered from the blues,
who suffered from depression, and overcamehis ills to become the great leader.
Whereas someone like Mary Lincoln, whohad three of her four sons died,
(31:18):
she was at their side for allthree of those deaths, and we
look and see her husband was murderedin front of extor. The most awful
I mean you're high, is thatyou've survived the war and you're on a
carry tribe and you're planning your future. And that night you go to the
(31:38):
theater because it's something that diverts himand it's something that cheers him. And
they go and they play the songto welcome him, and they see a
comedy and they're laughing, and duringone of the highest laughters, a shot
rings ound. His blood is splatteredon her, taken across the street to
(32:00):
die in a boarding house. Allthe men surround him, and she is
not even allowed to be by hisside, which in nineteenth century family maternal
lore, women were to be thereto help spirit their loved ones to the
next world. And she was Stantonwho made that decision. Was it Stanton
(32:22):
who put her out of the room? Yes, take that woman out of
here? Why but because she wastoo distraught, she was too hysterical,
and there weren't enough people to reallycontrol her at that time. And he
of course was looking at the factthat reports were coming in. And we
(32:42):
do know that it was not onlyLincoln's assassination, but it was a plot,
a coup to overthrow the government andreignite the war. So indeed,
it was a night that we haveto say, was you know a turning
point in American history? That theweekend of Easter in eighteen sixty five was
(33:06):
a defining point. But for example, when people say that Mary was so
unstable, I found an interesting patternthat they were looking at the date the
president died, which is an importantdate. Never the Friday on that day
died. He died the next dayon Easter Saturday, so that date is
important. But I found a patternin her that she suffered on Easter because
(33:31):
she called him the martyr President.She identified him, and therefore her waves
of memory and her waves of hysteriamight come back to her over the Easter
period. And then there was sheherself had been in the carriage that had
(33:52):
been deliberately disabled, and it wasa pretty horrific accident, and I guess
it was designed to kill Lincoln andpossibly Mary as well. Well. It
was Lincoln's carriage that he used togo to the White House, but she
happened to take it, and whenthey discovered this evidence, it was covered
up. It is not a wellpublicized fact, but we do have evidence
(34:14):
that it was something. And imagineLincoln feeling that his wife was nearly killed
by this attempt on his life.She then became so very demanding that there
be Metropolitan Police, which was anew Washington I believe it was introduced during
(34:36):
the Civil War. And also thatwe have guard Secret Service to look after
him, moving from the Pinkerton role. So we do know that the protection
of the president was something that strengthenedduring the war but failed failed on Good
Friday. Absolutely, you know,it's really quite an extraordinary week to me.
(34:58):
I mean that Appomatics is on PalmSunday, and it's Lincoln's remarks on
the fourteenth of April that where Boothmoves from kidnapping to murder. Yes,
and that by chance Booth just happensto go to the fourth Head to get
his male and decides this is thenight it's and then the country gathers on
(35:22):
Easter. It's not surprising that Lincoln, you know, enjoys almost a semi
deity status. Well say that onApril eleventh, he gave a speech from
the White House, and in thatspeech he spoke directly about African Americans who
would take it arms and therefore thosewho were veterans, those who were educated
(35:46):
should have the right of suffrage.So I believe he made his first,
not his first batism, certainly hismost important civil rights speech at that moment.
And Booth was allegedly someone who overheardhis remarks and said that would be
the last speech he ever gave.Now, I found that chilling. That,
(36:08):
yes, that that he went rightafter appomatics and Richmond, and then
he makes these remarks he who wasagainst slavery but not an abolitionists, had
come of light years who really wantingthe franchise for these black soldiers and a
few others. But yeah, thatthat was the turning point. It's it's
(36:30):
a it's a real it's almost likeGreek drama. This how this how,
this entire dynamic unfolds. And Ithink that's why we still play it today
that way, don't you that wesee these as an issue moving into a
moral a moral kind of All conflicts, of course, have to do with
(36:51):
politics and economies and other issues.But Lincoln was someone who set forth a
moral course. And his second Inauguralis a very beautiful, a very moving
indictment. And yet the Gettysburg Address, his most famous speech, is where
he's moving toward healing and all thosehe died must be redeemed by liberty and
(37:17):
justice for all. Well, Ido think he I mean, I don't
think I fully appreciated until this seriesto what extent Lincoln played such a dominant
role in establishing the principles of Declarationof Independence as our mantra. Because he
knew the Constitution wouldn't work, especiallyin that he was moving the country to
(37:40):
a higher moral ground with the notionof emancipation. And here we are about
to celebrate America two fifty and whatis the defining document Not the Constitution,
which is binding, but rather theDeclaration of Independence. And I just think
that is entire that you have toattribute to Lincoln all those influenced him.
(38:04):
And certainly we acknowledge that, butyou have to. It is a moral
drama, and it's a moral dramathat we're still working our way through even
in the twenty first century. Butit's a defining moment in American history.
They are those who say, youdon't understand America if you don't understand the
war. Would you share that thinking? I definitely do. My other I
(38:30):
guess my other thinking is that genderplays such an important role in the way
we reflect on all these issues,much like race. But I am really
really shocked at so many of theLincoln biographers. I often call the biographers
and the other writers Lincolnistas, becauseof course, in two thousand and nine,
(38:51):
the year of Lincoln's birth, byCentennial was a book a week was
being published on Lincoln, and inall of that found so many that were
taking these very critical views of MaryLincoln, saying he never loved her,
he pined for his and rutledge hissweetheart of his youth, etc. And
(39:13):
I really took umbrage by saying,we think of Lincoln as one of the
great thinkers, as one of thegreat strategists, as someone who really was
a great judge of character, agreat person for humor, a great person
for intelligence. He had emotional intelligencebeyond what we could imagine in his era.
And yet we think that he wasmarried to someone who was not lovable,
(39:38):
who was not a companion, whowas not a beloved, who he
didn't share so many values with.Therefore, I think we need to really
reevaluate missus Lincoln and see her assomeone who was much misunderstood, and then
also to give a little more sympathyto what she suffered in her loss,
(39:59):
because from the moment of his death, she wore black the rest of her
life, except for one day whenher son Tad said, we wear something
else, some other color on mybirthday. But she was in mourning,
and I think part of her mourningis something you said earlier, Mayor Pratt.
I do want to correct a bitand say that Lincoln became someone who
(40:22):
eclipsed Washington's reputation and legacy at theturn of the twentieth century. So it
took a concerted effort on the partof people like Missus Lincoln and many of
his supporters to see him in thisheroic light that actually his press and his
(40:43):
reputation was one that people like HoraceGreeley said, will rise. The further
way you get from his life,you will see his greatness. And I
think that this is something that wastrue and she achieved. And as you
say, for our two hundred andfiftieth we have to look back and say,
who defines the nation? Who gaveus the words and the spirit of
(41:07):
freedom to continue the great journey topolishing and cherishing democracy, which is something
that's such a good lesson for usin twenty twenty four. Now, that's
why we're so appreciative of having USAas a guest, because I very much
agree with you, and though Ihave maybe at once I referenced it second
(41:30):
to George Washington, but I dothink you're right. He eclipsed George Washington,
and he is the one who definesagain that we're celebrating America two fifty
because he is the one, morethan the author Arbert Thomas Jefferson, who
made the Declaration of Independence, thoseprinciples the man mantra for this country.
(41:52):
And it's very easy to get abum rap in this town, especially a
woman who doesn't fit prototype of whatWashington, d C. The nation power
brokers think she ought to be.So she had a tough time. She
certainly did have a tough time postthe assassination and having to be institutionalizable.
(42:15):
Ultimately, I know that she wasliberated from that experience, but I am
very grateful to have you amplify herstory and enlighteness regarding her story and recognized
he could hardly have been the greatman that he was had he not had
a helpful partner, and she certainlywas that. However contentious it may have
(42:38):
been at times, however rambunctious shemay have been at times, she was
clearly someone who believed in him,possibly more than he believed in himself for
a while. So thank you somuch, Professor Catherine Clinton. You have
enriched this conversation and very much enhancedour understand of Abraham Lincoln and the woman
(43:01):
in his life. Mary Todd likeit. Thank you, thank you for
your series, and keep up thegreat work.
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