Season 1 of "In the Room Where It Happened" focuses on America's defining father, Abraham Lincoln. In episode one, former D.C Mayor, Sharon Pratt, dives deeper into the life and death of President Abraham Lincoln with author and scholar Terry Alford. The pair discuss Lincoln's connection to spiritualism and the parallels between Lincoln and his assassinator, John Wilkes Booth.
Terry Alford is an author and historian. He received a Ph.D. in history from Mississippi State University and did post-doctoral work in family history at the University of California, Davis. Dr. Alford is a founding board member of the Abraham Lincoln Institute of Washington, D.C., and is a recognized authority on John Wilkes Booth and the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln. He is the author of “Fortune's Fool: The Life of John Wilkes Booth” and “In the Houses of their Dead: The Lincolns, the Booths, and the Spirits.”
Terry Alford is an author and historian. He received a Ph.D. in history from Mississippi State University and did post-doctoral work in family history at the University of California, Davis. Dr. Alford is a founding board member of the Abraham Lincoln Institute of Washington, D.C., and is a recognized authority on John Wilkes Booth and the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln. He is the author of “Fortune's Fool: The Life of John Wilkes Booth” and “In the Houses of their Dead: The Lincolns, the Booths, and the Spirits.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello, everyone. We're in theroom with doctor Terry Alfred. Very lucky
to have him with us. Iam Sharon Pratt. I'm the founding director
of the Institute of Politics, Policyand History. We just say ipph and
the former mayor, or one ofthe former mayors of Washington, d C.
And we're very pleased to have doctorTerry Alfred as we explore the life
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of Abraham Lincoln, a defining fatherin terms of the growth and evolution of
Washington, d C. Thank you, Doctor Alfred for being with us,
my pleasure, Thanks for the invitation. So doctor Albert is a retired historian
from the Northern Virginia Community College.He has served as an advisor and a
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consultant or a great many documentaries,including films, including Spielberg's film about Abraham
Lincoln, and is probably one ofthe leading experts on the Booth families.
So we really wanted to do adeep dive into John Wilkes Booth, but
also in particular the connection of Boothand Lincoln, not only around the assassination,
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around the whole dynamic spiritualism. DoctorAlbert, as we explore that,
we want to talk about spiritualism,and before we get too deep into it.
Could you explain and defind for ouraudiences just what is spiritualism. When
we say spiritualism in a modern sense, we mean a movement that began a
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few years before the Civil War whentwo teenage girls in upstate New York claim
to have heard voices and received communicationsfrom a dead man who was buried in
the sollar of their house. Andthey were intermediaries, in other words,
from someone on the other side,they claim, who was there present,
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interested in them and passing our message, just them and their family. And
this movement, this phenomenon must havetouched the core because it spread like waw
fire across the country. The nextthing you knew, there were seances going
on in almost every town. Therewere professional mediums going around. It was
really quite a thing. So weknow that it intensifies, or it seems
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to really take hold during the CivilWar, which you can sort of understand.
I guess because of so much death. Is that correct that it really
seemed much more in messure in theAmerican life during that period of time when
there was so much death. Well, absolutely was. The war was a
terrible thing and it killed hundreds ofthousands of young men who were the pride
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and hope of their families when youreally come down to it, and it
just seemed spiritualism offered a way tostay in touch with them or to be
with them and to receive you know, what they're doing is they're there to
give you guidance, they're there togive you comfort. There's always a question
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to what extent this supplemented or surplassedthe religions that were set up at the
time, and that's something we canalso talk about. But we have to
remember also in the eighteen fifties,people didn't live very long. You know,
if your mother lived to be forty, you were kind of lucky.
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In the Civil War years, ifyour dad lived to be forty five,
you were kind of lucky. Sothese were hard times with wear and tear,
infections, accidents, and then youthrow the war on top of it.
Or you could just imagine, youknow, the spiritual longing and hunger
that was out there for a momentlike this. So your book in the
House of Their Dead, the Lincoln's, the Booths and their Spirits, you
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sort of help us understand or possiblyunderstand how it was these two families in
particular moved in the direction of spiritualism, that there was some element of it
in their early lives now and they'revery different lives, a very different profile
seemingly of Abraham Lincoln as against theBooth family. The Booth family were distinguished
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actors. Abraham Lincoln was really dirtpoor, That's right, he was,
I mean seemingly, I mean hewas dirt or so would you give us
a sense of whether Lincoln or yousee superstitious? So YBC he superstitious who
encouraged that sort of a sense ofearly life Abraham Lincoln in this direction.
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Well, you made a very goodpoint. The families were very different.
John Wilkes and his parents were immigrantsfrom London and they had only come in
the eighteen twenties. They'd only comein the generation for the war. Lakea's
family goes all the way back prettymuch to period in times, and they
were frontier people where the Booths weremore urban. So there was a very
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big difference here on the spiritual onthe superstition thing. Though. It's interesting
people were this is an age.I like to make a point of amazing
discoveries of incipient industrialization, of thediscoveries of things like the hypodermic syringe and
absolute zero, and people were gettingmore scientific than they had ever been.
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But at the same time, youknow they were superstitious. You know,
you can change conditions, but youand I probably wondered, sometimes can you
change people? You know, there'ssomething about that. And in their case,
for example, Mary Lincoln, AbrahamLincoln's wife, was fearful of Friday's,
probably because of what happened on GoodFriday with Jesus. So a lot
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of people would not sign an importantcontract on Friday, wouldn't plant their major
crops on Friday, would not starta big trip on Friday. We're not
getting married on Friday. That wasjust kind of the one day of the
week to be afraid of. AbrahamLincoln. He was very logical in some
ways, but he had this spiritualHe had this superstitious vein that a friend
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of his said, ran through him, like if you see a piece of
marble, Decora to marble, youcan see kind of a bluish vein running
through it. Sometimes that this streetthat Lincoln himself realized was sort of irrational.
Nevertheless, you know it was there, and he was remarkably superstitious person
well, you know, with MaryTodd Lincoln. I know you said in
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your book that she had this fearof Fridays, and I think that had
been imbued in her in part byone of the servants of the of the
family she was. Her family werein slavers. She was born in Kentucky,
right, and one of the oneof the people who for her,
told her to be fearful of Friday, because that's when all of her misdeeds
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would catch up with her and itwould seem that it was true. I
mean, she lost a son onFriday, then she lost her father in
law on a Friday, and thenshe loses her husband on Good Friday.
So yeah, yeah, so thatdoes seem to be an electric date for
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her, doesn't it. Then goahead. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna
say on your point, it's kindof funny to think that her, this
nursing companion she had, who wasenslaved, as she said, did tell
her that every Friday the jay birdswrote down everything she had done wrong and
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flew off to tell the devil aboutit so he could write it in a
big book against her name. Andyou know, just just something that was,
like you say, ingrained in her. Yeah. And then with Lincoln,
his mother seemingly had some intuitive impulses, as did his stepmother. Is
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that correct or is that correct?Yes? I think they. We don't
know as much about his birth motheras we would like to. Mother outlived
him, so we know more.But they were both superstitious, and her
dad and his dad, I mightsay it was given to dreams. You
know, he had a dream onetime his father, the Lincoln's father,
Thomas, of traveling down a roadand going in a house and meeting a
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woman, and they were so vividto him that he actually took that trip
and found that woman there who Iend up marrying her, the story goes.
So those were interesting times and characters. And then with Lincoln, I
mean it would appear that much ofhis ambition many ways was fueled by his
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own premonitions. I mean, whenyou think of how he was born into
almost nothing, that he didn't evenhave windows or a floor in a log
cabin until his stepmother arrived, andyou know, he had virtually no education.
I mean, what he achieved isremarkable. It's just unimaginable in many
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ways. And he had strong premonitionabout his purpose and potential in life,
did he not? He did.It's interesting he had two kind of impelling
feelings. One that he was goingto be a great person, perhaps even
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president, and secondly, that's somethingterrible was going to happen to him.
And his friend said, no,you don't think like that. Don't put
that vibe out there in the universe, you know, And he said,
no, no, it's fate.I can't do anything about it. It's
faded. He was a great believerthat, yeah, what's going to be
will be. And so well,let's now before we get to really what
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happened with when Mary Todd Lincoln inparticular seemingly turned to spiritualism, let's go
to the Booth family. Now,they were a distinguished acting family, theatrical
family, as you said, theyhad started out in England with the sons.
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Though were they born here? Werethey not? Yes, they were
born here. Yeah, they wereborn here. So Junius Booth is the
father, right, have been marriedbefore and that marriage had not formally even
though he represented that it had.Mary's Then is it Mary who was who
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had worked in the stage in Londonor in the theatrical environment. She is
the mother of what how many childrennine ten children, yes, ten ten,
that's a lot of children. Andthey live in bel Air, Maryland
eventually, right and uh so theythey're not rich, but they live comfortably.
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Certainly by comparison, that's Lincoln family, and they have some education.
Uh they're more more learned family.Certainly Lincoln's now Julius uh Booth who in
that family may have been inclined towardsh superstition and uh fortune teller. I
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think John woke Spooth, you say, went to a fortune teller and she
told him that he then picked upa terrible guard and he would have a
terrible future. Is that right?That's right. He must have been around
twelve when that happened. And whatthey used to call Gypsy's now called romani
more properly, we're passing through Marylandand they were camped near the Booth farm.
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So John Wilkes went down there andhad his fortune told. And the
fortune teller said, I've never seenlooking at his hands, and I've never
seen a worse hand. I'm sorry, I wish I hadn't seen it.
And you know, he was likeany twelve year old would be properly frightened
by this, and he said,is there anything I could do to escape
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bad my bad luck? And heshe said, well, maybe become a
missionary or something. I really don'tdon't see what I can do for you.
And you know, he tried tolaugh it off, but you know,
he had a nature where he tendedrude about things. He couldn't let
go of bad news quite often,and that stayed with him. His sister
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said, let's stay with him forfor his entire life, that feeling there's
something ominous that happen. And ofcourse he's the author. Of course,
maybe we don't quite know how thecards are dealt, but seemingly he's the
author of his own misfortune. Butit's interesting. I mean, they live
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in bel Air, it's a borderstate. When the Civil War terms,
his older brother, Edwin, who'salso an actor and possibly at that time
was it was celebrated actor is aUnionist, right, that's right. So
there was a split in a way, there was, that's just about right.
There was a split in Maryland itselfas a border state, as you
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say, you know, there weresome who were pro Southern, some for
Northern, and a big group justwanted at the end and didn't want to
have anything. Didn't want it tohappen. Right, The family split,
just like the country did. You'reright, so and he when John Wilkes
Booth gets follved with acting, hedoes a lot of acting, does he
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not in Richmond, which will notvery so? Will so become the capital
of the Confederate Saint Yes, that'sa good point. He did. He
did act before the war began inRichmond. He spent two years there.
He had a very attractive personality.People were drawn to him and they liked
him, and you know he hewas a troubled person, but not a
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mean one, you know what Imean. I mean, you know he
could be loving and you could haveyou could see years after the war when
they felt safe. His friends,although they always rejected what he did,
you know, they kind of likehim in his better days. So he
bonded with that city. That's thepoint, right, I mean, he
really identified with Richmond, and hewas although he never acted in the South
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once the war began, he neverwent into the Confederate States to act.
He stayed in the Roar. Althoughhis Sudies are strongly pro Southern. Yeah,
so did any of the boys.Because there was sisters Asia and others.
But any of the both boys participateeither with the Union Army or the
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Confederate Army. Were they all basicallyengaged in acting and not involved with the
fighting. Uh. The father hadtold them that actors should stay out of
politics. I mean, it didn'tmake any sense to alienate half the public
before the curtain even went up,right half your audience if you if you're
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if you're identified with a cause orthe other. The boys stayed out of
the army, and I think atJohn Will's booth case, that was a
big, big mistake because his sympathieswere so pro Southern. You know,
he had to sit on them duringthe war. And you know, if
you if if someone is really conscientiousand they're fighting their instincts to do something,
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you know, it can be bad. They can they can simmer,
you know, they confester, youknow, they can antagonize themselves. And
I think that's the exactly what happenedto him. So he began to think
ill of himself. For well,you did a lot of profiles on John
Willispool and we have fortune Spool,and he referred to himself as a coward
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for not enlisting in the Confederate army, and some thought he was even a
part of a a spy ring forthe Confederacy. Do you think that's the
case. Well, I think thathe did think on the coward point.
I think he did think he wasa coward. And here the acting profession
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plays an interesting role because he's playingheroes on stage. I mean, he
knows how pony he is, right, he's playing like a hero. And
every now and then a friend ofNorth would call him out, so he
would have a political outburst and theywould say, well, you know,
if you think that, you oughtto go down and you know, show
some courage. And when anyone saidthat to him, it hit him like
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a punch because he knew they weretelling the truth. He knew he should
be But because of the pressure fromhis mother, who had lost four children
already, you know, he hadrespected her wish the stat of the army.
He did. However, at somepoint, when things began to look
really bad for the South, hebegan to intrigue a little bit. He
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began to think of this idea ofabducting Licoln you know, and taking him
as a personal award to the South. And although that sounds really fantastical by
modern standards, that really was perhapsdoable in eighteen sixty five. I mean
he went out one time with theseven armed men, there were eight of
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them. That was probably enough tograb lacoln who also went around practically unaccompanied.
Yeah, some heavily come in,sometimes not so. But both of
them in some ways had a providentialoutlook on life, both Abraham Lincoln and
John Wilkes Booth. Now we're movingmore towards spiritualism with the Lincoln household.
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After the death of Willie, hewas only eleven years old, and that's
when Mary Todd Lincoln, who manypeople now say is bipolar and so forth,
I don't know, became inconsolable,and we found it fulcinating that she
turned to psychics. The lorries inGeorgetown at home still exists, and had
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seances right in the east in thein the east room was it the Red
room room? When did she havethese seances? I think them right?
Okay, you're right about about this. We were know the death of Willy
in eighteen sixty two, and thenbefore they came to Washington, they lost
a little boy, Eddie. Soshe had two sons and Willie. You
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can't say the death of one childis worse than the other. But he
was the most attractive child, themost loving child, the most the one
with the most promised And then thisI think is a critical point. He
said she she said he was theone when he was older that would take
care of her. He was theone that she felt she would be able
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to count on when she reached heryou know, old age. And because
we all know the death of achild is a theft from the future.
It really is just no other wayto say it. The death of a
child is at theft from from yourfuture, you know. And she just
wanted to be with him, soshe begins to host They sayns isn't even
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attend them at other places like thehouse in Georgetown. You mintioned and and
and the president joyed her, didhe not? I mean some said to
uh, you know, just tomake her feel better, but I'm not
so certain. Did he lock himselfin a room every Thursday and you know,
sot to commemorate the death of Willie? He too, found it was
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inconsolable with I'm glad you brought thatup. That's an interesting and little known
point. Will he died on Thursday, so he would spend part of that
day alone, you know, inGreece, and various people tried to counsel
with them, ministers and so forth, and they had some success. But
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I think his mind, according tohis law partner William Herndon, his mind
was very kind of rational. Andyou know, anything that you he couldn't
prove, he wasn't inclined to believe. And then, don't forget as a
public official, you know, therelentless demands upon your time. There's not
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enough you to go around for everythingthat needs to be done. And these
necessarily dragged him back, dragged hisattention back to the present. And so
you know he was able maybe toadjust the loss more than Mary to some
extent, by the understandings of thistime. Taking care of Willie was her
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job, and you know, hadshe failed at it, you know,
you might well ask. So I'msure she felt on a lass. She
felt guilt, grief, everything youcould feel. Well, she seems to
have been a bright woman, youknow, whatever her idiosyncrasies. And she
didn't have enough to do. Imean, he had plenty to do.
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He was in the middle of thecivil war. He had to hold the
country together, I mean, notto that had to help him with his
grief, like you're suggesting, hehad to stay busy, he had to
put his mind on his mission.And here was a man who'd always thought
he was destined to do something significant. Otherwise, what was the point of
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life. In the meantime, wehave John Wilkes Booth, who is I
don't know if he's turned to anymore fortune Telly, maybe a little nervous
about them becoming inconsolable about the directionof the war. He's meeting regularly down
at Mary Surat's boarding house with herson John Sarat and others, as she
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pointed out, with originally the intentionto kidnap Lincoln and the vice president and
et cetera. And then when atsome juncture decides no, I won't,
And all of those efforts were abortedor not aborted. But I think it
was Campbell's house as a place theywere supposed to where they had hoped to
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kidnap him, and Lincoln decided togo take a different, you know direction
that evening, so they couldn't doit, but with appomatics and you know
what was happening in the war,that's when he decided he was going to
killing not that this is about spiritualism, but there's an extraordinary set of I
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don't know, coincidences around this wholeweek appomatics occurs on Palm Sunday. Then
you know, Lincoln speaks obviously toeveryone at the North Portico in the White
House April eleventh, two days afterthe fall of this you know, the
appomatics rather and then chills. Sheerhappenstance that John Wilkes Books goes to the
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Fourth Theater for no purpose of theneglector's mail, right on the fourtheenth of
April, which is Good Friday,when he discovers, just by sheer coincidence,
that the Lincoln's will be there thatevening. Just think of that,
and that's the night that he managesto get this derringer and kill him.
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I mean, he doesn't kill himimmediately, but it's a fatals womb and
manages as well to get a coupleof his cohorts to come after seward,
and the one who was supposed tocome after, Vice President Johnson, ultimately
drops the ball. And then thinkof it, when the nation is assembling
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to deal with the devastation of thismoment. I mean, whatever won sentiments
may have been regarding Abraham lacoln ofyou the north of South, everybody's depleted
by the war, and this nowhappens. You know, it's Holy Week.
You know, people are gathering insynagogues on Saturday, and they're gathering
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through on't the country with Easter Sunday. I mean, you have to wonder
whether there was something providential all ofthis with both of these men. Were
they the instruments of destiny? Thatwas certainly the opinion of a lot of
ministers, you know, and andthey felt that that this was very unusual
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timing. There were very few whosaid, like it should not have gone
to the theater on a good Friday, But you know, there were only
one or two of those. Andthat was kind of funny because the sight
of Ford's Theater used to be thefirst Baptist Church of Washington. That was
originally where the first Baptist church wasin the old days. So a lot
of people said, well, somethingbad will happen there, you know,
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But but it is it is quiteprovidential, isn't it that that that that
happened? It certainly is, andit I think that Booth probably Booth was
impulsive, and one person said,very very reckless as an individual. Again,
I'd like to show he wasn't likemean spirited, you know, and
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a lot of people would say hewasn't, but you know, he he
would jump into things sometimes about thinkingahead, and he he he might have
attacked Lincoln even sooner if he hadhad a proper opportunity. But that particular
day, that good Friday, likeyou said, he went to the theater
to collect his mail. The Fordfamily were from Baltimore, and he was
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from Baltimore, Booth, so youknow, he was very familiar with the
theater. He knew the ins andouts. He was respected and welcomed.
He didn't need a pass, ofcourse, he could just walk in and
wander around. And as a star, people were glad to see him,
Like a lot of the junior actors, up and coming actors, you know,
they thought, whoa, there's misterBooth, you know, and for
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most people it was just I mean, he was as popular as you named
the movie star, you know,Matt Damion. I mean, anybody would
let yeah, he was a thiswas family. I mean, now you
collect your mail there, you knowhow much you're a part of the furniture
as it were, of that place, and I don't know that anyone would
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have thwarted him, even if theone security guard they said, had gone
out for a train. But it'sso interesting also that that was the morning
Abraham Lincoln signed into law the legislationfor secret Service. What a co incidence,
Like you said, it's just amother see it is it is,
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it does seem. And you know, you Lincoln enjoys almost semi deity status
in the collective consciousness of the country. And you have to think with all
those messages that were poured out inthe wake of his death, you know,
on on Easter Sunday, it hadto elevate him thinking about him to
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a semi did he did he status? My dad? You tell me what
you think about this. Several ofhis acquaintances said he couldn't never, he
could not have died at a pointmore greater for his fame. In other
words, he didn't have to livethrough reconstruction. He didn't have to figure
out what to do right he gotas far as his reputation, you know,
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he could not have died at abetter time than he did at the
very apex of his successes. No, I mean no, I think that
is true. It's terrible to say, but there is truth to it.
I think that he set it inmotion. He pulled off marshaling the boots,
as we know from Spielberg's Lincoln forthe thirteenth Amendment. And I don't
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know that the reconstruction could have eventaken life with ulyssess great because it didn't
happen until he happened, were itnot for the enormous lost the country experience,
you know with Abraham Lincoln. ButLincoln himself kept having dreams that all
of this was going to happen.I mean, he kept envisioning this casket,
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was it not in the White House, going in there, asking people
who had died, and they wouldtell him it was the President. I
don't know. Did Booth have itsother types of premonitions that are comparable to
what Lincoln had? One thing thata project I'm working on right now,
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and this probably fits in psychologically.One thing. You've been kind of enough
to refer to our books several times, and you know, I'll describe things,
but I won't put a modern dynasticlabel on it, because Number one,
I don't know enough to do it. And number two, it may
not be fair to these people tosay you're this or you're that. Right,
I just kind of put the symptomsout there and that everybody can draw
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their judgments. But one thing thatI noticed about him that spring is he
just could not sleep. He couldnot go to sleep. You know,
he must have been running on theday of assassination on fumes, I guess.
I don't know. I kept onhis feet, but he was just
having a great deal of the time. And he you know, when he
when he did dream, it wasalways about this. It was always about
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you know, dealing with Lincoln andkidnapping Lincoln, being a hero and shooting
Lincoln. He was he was obsessedwith this. I'm surprisingly, I'm not
surprised link he didn't have those dreamsof because you know, he he he
had a fatalistic attitude, as Isaid, and he told a number of
people, well, you know Iknow that people threatened me. Well what
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can I do about it. Ican't live in a cage to be president.
I've got to go out. I'vegot to be among the people.
And you know, I think,you know, I'm not surprised. At
the same time, he'd be lessthan human if it didn't occur to him.
You know that there were a feweavily minded people out there who might
want to do something to him.You know, there's not much you can
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do. Really, all you cando is hope. Not with the Secret
Service, you hope they can findthe killer. And of course with Stanton
they had this, you know,this massive manhunt. It's a fascinating tiime
in the history of the country andthese two men. I'm glad that you
have provided more texture to who weunderstand. Regarding John Wilkes Booth, he
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was no as you pointed out,he wouldn't have been such a success on
the stage. I guess if hehadn't been somewhat likable. He was charming,
a very handsome guy, and youwould think he didn't wouldn't have reason
to engage in behavior of this sortin order to have significance. But he
wanted greater significance than what he had, and all he did was ultimately patapault
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Lincoln and that he thought wanted tobe a king. He's the one that
catapultared him into a semi d eightystatus. That's a very good point.
I mean, you know it asunderstand Lincoln was given an assistment John Lukes
Booth and the terrible act that hecommed me. It is true Booth was
a really fine actor, but heat some point, you know, that
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was an awfully a lot of wearingand tearing. I mean, you know,
those plays could be a couple ofhours long. They ended with an
exhausting sword fight, most of them, and he would say something that's when
the curtain would go down after thesword fight, and the curtain felt he
might lay on the stage for fiveor even ten minutes before he got up.
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He was just physically exhausted. Andthen next week you have to go
to Chicago and do it all overagain. I mean, so he at
some point late as the war wenton, he didn't find any satisfactor or
he was making good money, hedidn't find any satisfaction, and it began
to fret again about the course ofthe war. And then now we see
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why it was unfortunate that he didn'tgo into the Confederate army and get himself
shot about halfway through. Well,he would never have been able to at
least he now lives in infamy.Unfortunately, on the first assassination of an
American president. Tough times. Imean, you know, tough times in
America. I'm sorry to interject.I don't mean to rug at all,
(33:37):
but not at all. Again,you made me think of a good point.
And this was indeed the first one, the first assassination. It had
never happened before. Many people couldn'teven conceive it. Today, I think
if the president was shot, wewould be horrified, but not necessarily surprised,
because we know things like that canhappen. I think in this time
(34:00):
they were both horrified and surprised.They didn't just didn't believe anything like that
was ever going to happen. Likeit, well, I mean to think
that you lived to a war,I mean an awful boy. That was
a tough war, because that's somethinghand to hand, and it was neighbor
to neighbor, cousin brother, Imean, it was rough and a lot
(34:21):
of death. And so to thinkthat you finally are bringing it to closure,
whether you like the outcome or not, and then for this to happen
was just a bit more. Iremember when they shot Kennedy, I mean
we would transfix. Part of itwas television. He was so young and
(34:42):
just so he you know, herepresented a new generation. He was full
of promise, so young and handsomecouple, and then for this to happen.
It's always unsecondly for us to bereminded of our mortality. And as
you pointed out with Mary Todd Lincoln, you lose a child, you lose
(35:06):
something of your future, and thatcertainly the case was with Kennedy as such
a young president. But with Lincolnthe notion that finally we reached a point
of some closure, and there itwas all up ended with this brutal assassination.
(35:27):
So I guess i'd ask you asort of a footnote to all of
it. Is there some special takeawaythat we should that exists regarding this moment,
regarding this experience, people who areso grieving so much that they turned
to spiritual It's not that there's anythingwrong with that. That a lesson or
(35:52):
an understanding that you would want toshare with us. And all my looking
at this topic and the other thingsI've written, you know, I've always
tried to just understand these people aspeople. And I see, you know,
(36:12):
their clothes change and their hairstyles change, and that we travel faster,
we eat better, you know,we live in more comfort generally, But
you know, they are people,right, and there's a lot to be
learned. You know, it's notnot the dates, and it's not you
know what happened, What's what yeardid this happen? I mean even I
have to look those things up everynow and then. But the human understandings
(36:37):
you gain, you know, theproblems they face that they can't No president,
no mayor can go in snapper fingers, and you know, I mean
you have to deal with people.You have to you know, understand like
Lincoln did, you know, workwith divergent parties. Lincoln was great,
I think, you know, becausehe was a little bit more progressive than
(36:58):
the country was. So he keptyou know, he went forward, but
he didn't go so far forward thathe lost you know, the public.
You know, they always went withit, and they never regretted it.
No I and as you pointed out, I don't know if he would be
held in such high regard if hehadn't paid the ultimate sacrifice. But it's
(37:20):
miraculous the country was still standing givenall that transpired, and it's edifying to
understand how they all had this connectionmany times over with the booths and the
Lincolns, but to include spiritualism.Doctor Alfred, you've been wonderful. It
really appreciate your insights and you certainlyhave enriched our series on the Defining Fathers.
(37:45):
Thank you so much. Thank youfor this wonderful program. I appreciate
it. Okay, look forward toseeing you again.
Hello, everyone. We're in theroom with doctor Terry Alfred. Very lucky
to have him with us. Iam Sharon Pratt. I'm the founding director
of the Institute of Politics, Policyand History. We just say ipph and
the former mayor, or one ofthe former mayors of Washington, d C.
And we're very pleased to have doctorTerry Alfred as we explore the life
(00:25):
of Abraham Lincoln, a defining fatherin terms of the growth and evolution of
Washington, d C. Thank you, Doctor Alfred for being with us,
my pleasure, Thanks for the invitation. So doctor Albert is a retired historian
from the Northern Virginia Community College.He has served as an advisor and a
(00:47):
consultant or a great many documentaries,including films, including Spielberg's film about Abraham
Lincoln, and is probably one ofthe leading experts on the Booth families.
So we really wanted to do adeep dive into John Wilkes Booth, but
also in particular the connection of Boothand Lincoln, not only around the assassination,
(01:11):
around the whole dynamic spiritualism. DoctorAlbert, as we explore that,
we want to talk about spiritualism,and before we get too deep into it.
Could you explain and defind for ouraudiences just what is spiritualism. When
we say spiritualism in a modern sense, we mean a movement that began a
(01:34):
few years before the Civil War whentwo teenage girls in upstate New York claim
to have heard voices and received communicationsfrom a dead man who was buried in
the sollar of their house. Andthey were intermediaries, in other words,
from someone on the other side,they claim, who was there present,
(01:57):
interested in them and passing our message, just them and their family. And
this movement, this phenomenon must havetouched the core because it spread like waw
fire across the country. The nextthing you knew, there were seances going
on in almost every town. Therewere professional mediums going around. It was
really quite a thing. So weknow that it intensifies, or it seems
(02:23):
to really take hold during the CivilWar, which you can sort of understand.
I guess because of so much death. Is that correct that it really
seemed much more in messure in theAmerican life during that period of time when
there was so much death. Well, absolutely was. The war was a
terrible thing and it killed hundreds ofthousands of young men who were the pride
(02:46):
and hope of their families when youreally come down to it, and it
just seemed spiritualism offered a way tostay in touch with them or to be
with them and to receive you know, what they're doing is they're there to
give you guidance, they're there togive you comfort. There's always a question
(03:07):
to what extent this supplemented or surplassedthe religions that were set up at the
time, and that's something we canalso talk about. But we have to
remember also in the eighteen fifties,people didn't live very long. You know,
if your mother lived to be forty, you were kind of lucky.
(03:28):
In the Civil War years, ifyour dad lived to be forty five,
you were kind of lucky. Sothese were hard times with wear and tear,
infections, accidents, and then youthrow the war on top of it.
Or you could just imagine, youknow, the spiritual longing and hunger
that was out there for a momentlike this. So your book in the
House of Their Dead, the Lincoln's, the Booths and their Spirits, you
(03:53):
sort of help us understand or possiblyunderstand how it was these two families in
particular moved in the direction of spiritualism, that there was some element of it
in their early lives now and they'revery different lives, a very different profile
seemingly of Abraham Lincoln as against theBooth family. The Booth family were distinguished
(04:16):
actors. Abraham Lincoln was really dirtpoor, That's right, he was,
I mean seemingly, I mean hewas dirt or so would you give us
a sense of whether Lincoln or yousee superstitious? So YBC he superstitious who
encouraged that sort of a sense ofearly life Abraham Lincoln in this direction.
(04:40):
Well, you made a very goodpoint. The families were very different.
John Wilkes and his parents were immigrantsfrom London and they had only come in
the eighteen twenties. They'd only comein the generation for the war. Lakea's
family goes all the way back prettymuch to period in times, and they
were frontier people where the Booths weremore urban. So there was a very
(05:01):
big difference here on the spiritual onthe superstition thing. Though. It's interesting
people were this is an age.I like to make a point of amazing
discoveries of incipient industrialization, of thediscoveries of things like the hypodermic syringe and
absolute zero, and people were gettingmore scientific than they had ever been.
(05:28):
But at the same time, youknow they were superstitious. You know,
you can change conditions, but youand I probably wondered, sometimes can you
change people? You know, there'ssomething about that. And in their case,
for example, Mary Lincoln, AbrahamLincoln's wife, was fearful of Friday's,
probably because of what happened on GoodFriday with Jesus. So a lot
(05:54):
of people would not sign an importantcontract on Friday, wouldn't plant their major
crops on Friday, would not starta big trip on Friday. We're not
getting married on Friday. That wasjust kind of the one day of the
week to be afraid of. AbrahamLincoln. He was very logical in some
ways, but he had this spiritualHe had this superstitious vein that a friend
(06:19):
of his said, ran through him, like if you see a piece of
marble, Decora to marble, youcan see kind of a bluish vein running
through it. Sometimes that this streetthat Lincoln himself realized was sort of irrational.
Nevertheless, you know it was there, and he was remarkably superstitious person
well, you know, with MaryTodd Lincoln. I know you said in
(06:42):
your book that she had this fearof Fridays, and I think that had
been imbued in her in part byone of the servants of the of the
family she was. Her family werein slavers. She was born in Kentucky,
right, and one of the oneof the people who for her,
told her to be fearful of Friday, because that's when all of her misdeeds
(07:05):
would catch up with her and itwould seem that it was true. I
mean, she lost a son onFriday, then she lost her father in
law on a Friday, and thenshe loses her husband on Good Friday.
So yeah, yeah, so thatdoes seem to be an electric date for
(07:27):
her, doesn't it. Then goahead. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna
say on your point, it's kindof funny to think that her, this
nursing companion she had, who wasenslaved, as she said, did tell
her that every Friday the jay birdswrote down everything she had done wrong and
(07:47):
flew off to tell the devil aboutit so he could write it in a
big book against her name. Andyou know, just just something that was,
like you say, ingrained in her. Yeah. And then with Lincoln,
his mother seemingly had some intuitive impulses, as did his stepmother. Is
(08:09):
that correct or is that correct?Yes? I think they. We don't
know as much about his birth motheras we would like to. Mother outlived
him, so we know more.But they were both superstitious, and her
dad and his dad, I mightsay it was given to dreams. You
know, he had a dream onetime his father, the Lincoln's father,
Thomas, of traveling down a roadand going in a house and meeting a
(08:31):
woman, and they were so vividto him that he actually took that trip
and found that woman there who Iend up marrying her, the story goes.
So those were interesting times and characters. And then with Lincoln, I
mean it would appear that much ofhis ambition many ways was fueled by his
(08:54):
own premonitions. I mean, whenyou think of how he was born into
almost nothing, that he didn't evenhave windows or a floor in a log
cabin until his stepmother arrived, andyou know, he had virtually no education.
I mean, what he achieved isremarkable. It's just unimaginable in many
(09:18):
ways. And he had strong premonitionabout his purpose and potential in life,
did he not? He did.It's interesting he had two kind of impelling
feelings. One that he was goingto be a great person, perhaps even
(09:41):
president, and secondly, that's somethingterrible was going to happen to him.
And his friend said, no,you don't think like that. Don't put
that vibe out there in the universe, you know, And he said,
no, no, it's fate.I can't do anything about it. It's
faded. He was a great believerthat, yeah, what's going to be
will be. And so well,let's now before we get to really what
(10:07):
happened with when Mary Todd Lincoln inparticular seemingly turned to spiritualism, let's go
to the Booth family. Now,they were a distinguished acting family, theatrical
family, as you said, theyhad started out in England with the sons.
(10:28):
Though were they born here? Werethey not? Yes, they were
born here. Yeah, they wereborn here. So Junius Booth is the
father, right, have been marriedbefore and that marriage had not formally even
though he represented that it had.Mary's Then is it Mary who was who
(10:50):
had worked in the stage in Londonor in the theatrical environment. She is
the mother of what how many childrennine ten children, yes, ten ten,
that's a lot of children. Andthey live in bel Air, Maryland
eventually, right and uh so theythey're not rich, but they live comfortably.
(11:13):
Certainly by comparison, that's Lincoln family, and they have some education.
Uh they're more more learned family.Certainly Lincoln's now Julius uh Booth who in
that family may have been inclined towardsh superstition and uh fortune teller. I
(11:39):
think John woke Spooth, you say, went to a fortune teller and she
told him that he then picked upa terrible guard and he would have a
terrible future. Is that right?That's right. He must have been around
twelve when that happened. And whatthey used to call Gypsy's now called romani
more properly, we're passing through Marylandand they were camped near the Booth farm.
(12:03):
So John Wilkes went down there andhad his fortune told. And the
fortune teller said, I've never seenlooking at his hands, and I've never
seen a worse hand. I'm sorry, I wish I hadn't seen it.
And you know, he was likeany twelve year old would be properly frightened
by this, and he said,is there anything I could do to escape
(12:24):
bad my bad luck? And heshe said, well, maybe become a
missionary or something. I really don'tdon't see what I can do for you.
And you know, he tried tolaugh it off, but you know,
he had a nature where he tendedrude about things. He couldn't let
go of bad news quite often,and that stayed with him. His sister
(12:46):
said, let's stay with him forfor his entire life, that feeling there's
something ominous that happen. And ofcourse he's the author. Of course,
maybe we don't quite know how thecards are dealt, but seemingly he's the
author of his own misfortune. Butit's interesting. I mean, they live
(13:11):
in bel Air, it's a borderstate. When the Civil War terms,
his older brother, Edwin, who'salso an actor and possibly at that time
was it was celebrated actor is aUnionist, right, that's right. So
there was a split in a way, there was, that's just about right.
There was a split in Maryland itselfas a border state, as you
(13:31):
say, you know, there weresome who were pro Southern, some for
Northern, and a big group justwanted at the end and didn't want to
have anything. Didn't want it tohappen. Right, The family split,
just like the country did. You'reright, so and he when John Wilkes
Booth gets follved with acting, hedoes a lot of acting, does he
(13:54):
not in Richmond, which will notvery so? Will so become the capital
of the Confederate Saint Yes, that'sa good point. He did. He
did act before the war began inRichmond. He spent two years there.
He had a very attractive personality.People were drawn to him and they liked
him, and you know he hewas a troubled person, but not a
(14:16):
mean one, you know what Imean. I mean, you know he
could be loving and you could haveyou could see years after the war when
they felt safe. His friends,although they always rejected what he did,
you know, they kind of likehim in his better days. So he
bonded with that city. That's thepoint, right, I mean, he
really identified with Richmond, and hewas although he never acted in the South
(14:41):
once the war began, he neverwent into the Confederate States to act.
He stayed in the Roar. Althoughhis Sudies are strongly pro Southern. Yeah,
so did any of the boys.Because there was sisters Asia and others.
But any of the both boys participateeither with the Union Army or the
(15:03):
Confederate Army. Were they all basicallyengaged in acting and not involved with the
fighting. Uh. The father hadtold them that actors should stay out of
politics. I mean, it didn'tmake any sense to alienate half the public
before the curtain even went up,right half your audience if you if you're
(15:24):
if you're identified with a cause orthe other. The boys stayed out of
the army, and I think atJohn Will's booth case, that was a
big, big mistake because his sympathieswere so pro Southern. You know,
he had to sit on them duringthe war. And you know, if
you if if someone is really conscientiousand they're fighting their instincts to do something,
(15:50):
you know, it can be bad. They can they can simmer,
you know, they confester, youknow, they can antagonize themselves. And
I think that's the exactly what happenedto him. So he began to think
ill of himself. For well,you did a lot of profiles on John
Willispool and we have fortune Spool,and he referred to himself as a coward
(16:18):
for not enlisting in the Confederate army, and some thought he was even a
part of a a spy ring forthe Confederacy. Do you think that's the
case. Well, I think thathe did think on the coward point.
I think he did think he wasa coward. And here the acting profession
(16:38):
plays an interesting role because he's playingheroes on stage. I mean, he
knows how pony he is, right, he's playing like a hero. And
every now and then a friend ofNorth would call him out, so he
would have a political outburst and theywould say, well, you know,
if you think that, you oughtto go down and you know, show
some courage. And when anyone saidthat to him, it hit him like
(17:02):
a punch because he knew they weretelling the truth. He knew he should
be But because of the pressure fromhis mother, who had lost four children
already, you know, he hadrespected her wish the stat of the army.
He did. However, at somepoint, when things began to look
really bad for the South, hebegan to intrigue a little bit. He
(17:30):
began to think of this idea ofabducting Licoln you know, and taking him
as a personal award to the South. And although that sounds really fantastical by
modern standards, that really was perhapsdoable in eighteen sixty five. I mean
he went out one time with theseven armed men, there were eight of
(17:51):
them. That was probably enough tograb lacoln who also went around practically unaccompanied.
Yeah, some heavily come in,sometimes not so. But both of
them in some ways had a providentialoutlook on life, both Abraham Lincoln and
John Wilkes Booth. Now we're movingmore towards spiritualism with the Lincoln household.
(18:17):
After the death of Willie, hewas only eleven years old, and that's
when Mary Todd Lincoln, who manypeople now say is bipolar and so forth,
I don't know, became inconsolable,and we found it fulcinating that she
turned to psychics. The lorries inGeorgetown at home still exists, and had
(18:41):
seances right in the east in thein the east room was it the Red
room room? When did she havethese seances? I think them right?
Okay, you're right about about this. We were know the death of Willy
in eighteen sixty two, and thenbefore they came to Washington, they lost
a little boy, Eddie. Soshe had two sons and Willie. You
(19:03):
can't say the death of one childis worse than the other. But he
was the most attractive child, themost loving child, the most the one
with the most promised And then thisI think is a critical point. He
said she she said he was theone when he was older that would take
care of her. He was theone that she felt she would be able
(19:26):
to count on when she reached heryou know, old age. And because
we all know the death of achild is a theft from the future.
It really is just no other wayto say it. The death of a
child is at theft from from yourfuture, you know. And she just
wanted to be with him, soshe begins to host They sayns isn't even
(19:48):
attend them at other places like thehouse in Georgetown. You mintioned and and
and the president joyed her, didhe not? I mean some said to
uh, you know, just tomake her feel better, but I'm not
so certain. Did he lock himselfin a room every Thursday and you know,
sot to commemorate the death of Willie? He too, found it was
(20:12):
inconsolable with I'm glad you brought thatup. That's an interesting and little known
point. Will he died on Thursday, so he would spend part of that
day alone, you know, inGreece, and various people tried to counsel
with them, ministers and so forth, and they had some success. But
(20:36):
I think his mind, according tohis law partner William Herndon, his mind
was very kind of rational. Andyou know, anything that you he couldn't
prove, he wasn't inclined to believe. And then, don't forget as a
public official, you know, therelentless demands upon your time. There's not
(20:56):
enough you to go around for everythingthat needs to be done. And these
necessarily dragged him back, dragged hisattention back to the present. And so
you know he was able maybe toadjust the loss more than Mary to some
extent, by the understandings of thistime. Taking care of Willie was her
(21:18):
job, and you know, hadshe failed at it, you know,
you might well ask. So I'msure she felt on a lass. She
felt guilt, grief, everything youcould feel. Well, she seems to
have been a bright woman, youknow, whatever her idiosyncrasies. And she
didn't have enough to do. Imean, he had plenty to do.
(21:41):
He was in the middle of thecivil war. He had to hold the
country together, I mean, notto that had to help him with his
grief, like you're suggesting, hehad to stay busy, he had to
put his mind on his mission.And here was a man who'd always thought
he was destined to do something significant. Otherwise, what was the point of
(22:03):
life. In the meantime, wehave John Wilkes Booth, who is I
don't know if he's turned to anymore fortune Telly, maybe a little nervous
about them becoming inconsolable about the directionof the war. He's meeting regularly down
at Mary Surat's boarding house with herson John Sarat and others, as she
(22:27):
pointed out, with originally the intentionto kidnap Lincoln and the vice president and
et cetera. And then when atsome juncture decides no, I won't,
And all of those efforts were abortedor not aborted. But I think it
was Campbell's house as a place theywere supposed to where they had hoped to
(22:48):
kidnap him, and Lincoln decided togo take a different, you know direction
that evening, so they couldn't doit, but with appomatics and you know
what was happening in the war,that's when he decided he was going to
killing not that this is about spiritualism, but there's an extraordinary set of I
(23:15):
don't know, coincidences around this wholeweek appomatics occurs on Palm Sunday. Then
you know, Lincoln speaks obviously toeveryone at the North Portico in the White
House April eleventh, two days afterthe fall of this you know, the
appomatics rather and then chills. Sheerhappenstance that John Wilkes Books goes to the
(23:44):
Fourth Theater for no purpose of theneglector's mail, right on the fourtheenth of
April, which is Good Friday,when he discovers, just by sheer coincidence,
that the Lincoln's will be there thatevening. Just think of that,
and that's the night that he managesto get this derringer and kill him.
(24:07):
I mean, he doesn't kill himimmediately, but it's a fatals womb and
manages as well to get a coupleof his cohorts to come after seward,
and the one who was supposed tocome after, Vice President Johnson, ultimately
drops the ball. And then thinkof it, when the nation is assembling
(24:29):
to deal with the devastation of thismoment. I mean, whatever won sentiments
may have been regarding Abraham lacoln ofyou the north of South, everybody's depleted
by the war, and this nowhappens. You know, it's Holy Week.
You know, people are gathering insynagogues on Saturday, and they're gathering
(24:49):
through on't the country with Easter Sunday. I mean, you have to wonder
whether there was something providential all ofthis with both of these men. Were
they the instruments of destiny? Thatwas certainly the opinion of a lot of
ministers, you know, and andthey felt that that this was very unusual
(25:17):
timing. There were very few whosaid, like it should not have gone
to the theater on a good Friday, But you know, there were only
one or two of those. Andthat was kind of funny because the sight
of Ford's Theater used to be thefirst Baptist Church of Washington. That was
originally where the first Baptist church wasin the old days. So a lot
of people said, well, somethingbad will happen there, you know,
(25:37):
But but it is it is quiteprovidential, isn't it that that that that
happened? It certainly is, andit I think that Booth probably Booth was
impulsive, and one person said,very very reckless as an individual. Again,
I'd like to show he wasn't likemean spirited, you know, and
(26:03):
a lot of people would say hewasn't, but you know, he he
would jump into things sometimes about thinkingahead, and he he he might have
attacked Lincoln even sooner if he hadhad a proper opportunity. But that particular
day, that good Friday, likeyou said, he went to the theater
to collect his mail. The Fordfamily were from Baltimore, and he was
(26:26):
from Baltimore, Booth, so youknow, he was very familiar with the
theater. He knew the ins andouts. He was respected and welcomed.
He didn't need a pass, ofcourse, he could just walk in and
wander around. And as a star, people were glad to see him,
Like a lot of the junior actors, up and coming actors, you know,
they thought, whoa, there's misterBooth, you know, and for
(26:48):
most people it was just I mean, he was as popular as you named
the movie star, you know,Matt Damion. I mean, anybody would
let yeah, he was a thiswas family. I mean, now you
collect your mail there, you knowhow much you're a part of the furniture
as it were, of that place, and I don't know that anyone would
(27:11):
have thwarted him, even if theone security guard they said, had gone
out for a train. But it'sso interesting also that that was the morning
Abraham Lincoln signed into law the legislationfor secret Service. What a co incidence,
Like you said, it's just amother see it is it is,
(27:32):
it does seem. And you know, you Lincoln enjoys almost semi deity status
in the collective consciousness of the country. And you have to think with all
those messages that were poured out inthe wake of his death, you know,
on on Easter Sunday, it hadto elevate him thinking about him to
(27:59):
a semi did he did he status? My dad? You tell me what
you think about this. Several ofhis acquaintances said he couldn't never, he
could not have died at a pointmore greater for his fame. In other
words, he didn't have to livethrough reconstruction. He didn't have to figure
out what to do right he gotas far as his reputation, you know,
(28:23):
he could not have died at abetter time than he did at the
very apex of his successes. No, I mean no, I think that
is true. It's terrible to say, but there is truth to it.
I think that he set it inmotion. He pulled off marshaling the boots,
as we know from Spielberg's Lincoln forthe thirteenth Amendment. And I don't
(28:48):
know that the reconstruction could have eventaken life with ulyssess great because it didn't
happen until he happened, were itnot for the enormous lost the country experience,
you know with Abraham Lincoln. ButLincoln himself kept having dreams that all
of this was going to happen.I mean, he kept envisioning this casket,
(29:15):
was it not in the White House, going in there, asking people
who had died, and they wouldtell him it was the President. I
don't know. Did Booth have itsother types of premonitions that are comparable to
what Lincoln had? One thing thata project I'm working on right now,
(29:37):
and this probably fits in psychologically.One thing. You've been kind of enough
to refer to our books several times, and you know, I'll describe things,
but I won't put a modern dynasticlabel on it, because Number one,
I don't know enough to do it. And number two, it may
not be fair to these people tosay you're this or you're that. Right,
I just kind of put the symptomsout there and that everybody can draw
(30:00):
their judgments. But one thing thatI noticed about him that spring is he
just could not sleep. He couldnot go to sleep. You know,
he must have been running on theday of assassination on fumes, I guess.
I don't know. I kept onhis feet, but he was just
having a great deal of the time. And he you know, when he
when he did dream, it wasalways about this. It was always about
(30:23):
you know, dealing with Lincoln andkidnapping Lincoln, being a hero and shooting
Lincoln. He was he was obsessedwith this. I'm surprisingly, I'm not
surprised link he didn't have those dreamsof because you know, he he he
had a fatalistic attitude, as Isaid, and he told a number of
people, well, you know Iknow that people threatened me. Well what
(30:45):
can I do about it. Ican't live in a cage to be president.
I've got to go out. I'vegot to be among the people.
And you know, I think,you know, I'm not surprised. At
the same time, he'd be lessthan human if it didn't occur to him.
You know that there were a feweavily minded people out there who might
want to do something to him.You know, there's not much you can
(31:07):
do. Really, all you cando is hope. Not with the Secret
Service, you hope they can findthe killer. And of course with Stanton
they had this, you know,this massive manhunt. It's a fascinating tiime
in the history of the country andthese two men. I'm glad that you
have provided more texture to who weunderstand. Regarding John Wilkes Booth, he
(31:36):
was no as you pointed out,he wouldn't have been such a success on
the stage. I guess if hehadn't been somewhat likable. He was charming,
a very handsome guy, and youwould think he didn't wouldn't have reason
to engage in behavior of this sortin order to have significance. But he
wanted greater significance than what he had, and all he did was ultimately patapault
(32:04):
Lincoln and that he thought wanted tobe a king. He's the one that
catapultared him into a semi d eightystatus. That's a very good point.
I mean, you know it asunderstand Lincoln was given an assistment John Lukes
Booth and the terrible act that hecommed me. It is true Booth was
a really fine actor, but heat some point, you know, that
(32:29):
was an awfully a lot of wearingand tearing. I mean, you know,
those plays could be a couple ofhours long. They ended with an
exhausting sword fight, most of them, and he would say something that's when
the curtain would go down after thesword fight, and the curtain felt he
might lay on the stage for fiveor even ten minutes before he got up.
(32:49):
He was just physically exhausted. Andthen next week you have to go
to Chicago and do it all overagain. I mean, so he at
some point late as the war wenton, he didn't find any satisfactor or
he was making good money, hedidn't find any satisfaction, and it began
to fret again about the course ofthe war. And then now we see
(33:13):
why it was unfortunate that he didn'tgo into the Confederate army and get himself
shot about halfway through. Well,he would never have been able to at
least he now lives in infamy.Unfortunately, on the first assassination of an
American president. Tough times. Imean, you know, tough times in
America. I'm sorry to interject.I don't mean to rug at all,
(33:37):
but not at all. Again,you made me think of a good point.
And this was indeed the first one, the first assassination. It had
never happened before. Many people couldn'teven conceive it. Today, I think
if the president was shot, wewould be horrified, but not necessarily surprised,
because we know things like that canhappen. I think in this time
(34:00):
they were both horrified and surprised.They didn't just didn't believe anything like that
was ever going to happen. Likeit, well, I mean to think
that you lived to a war,I mean an awful boy. That was
a tough war, because that's somethinghand to hand, and it was neighbor
to neighbor, cousin brother, Imean, it was rough and a lot
(34:21):
of death. And so to thinkthat you finally are bringing it to closure,
whether you like the outcome or not, and then for this to happen
was just a bit more. Iremember when they shot Kennedy, I mean
we would transfix. Part of itwas television. He was so young and
(34:42):
just so he you know, herepresented a new generation. He was full
of promise, so young and handsomecouple, and then for this to happen.
It's always unsecondly for us to bereminded of our mortality. And as
you pointed out with Mary Todd Lincoln, you lose a child, you lose
(35:06):
something of your future, and thatcertainly the case was with Kennedy as such
a young president. But with Lincolnthe notion that finally we reached a point
of some closure, and there itwas all up ended with this brutal assassination.
(35:27):
So I guess i'd ask you asort of a footnote to all of
it. Is there some special takeawaythat we should that exists regarding this moment,
regarding this experience, people who areso grieving so much that they turned
to spiritual It's not that there's anythingwrong with that. That a lesson or
(35:52):
an understanding that you would want toshare with us. And all my looking
at this topic and the other thingsI've written, you know, I've always
tried to just understand these people aspeople. And I see, you know,
(36:12):
their clothes change and their hairstyles change, and that we travel faster,
we eat better, you know,we live in more comfort generally, But
you know, they are people,right, and there's a lot to be
learned. You know, it's notnot the dates, and it's not you
know what happened, What's what yeardid this happen? I mean even I
have to look those things up everynow and then. But the human understandings
(36:37):
you gain, you know, theproblems they face that they can't No president,
no mayor can go in snapper fingers, and you know, I mean
you have to deal with people.You have to you know, understand like
Lincoln did, you know, workwith divergent parties. Lincoln was great,
I think, you know, becausehe was a little bit more progressive than
(36:58):
the country was. So he keptyou know, he went forward, but
he didn't go so far forward thathe lost you know, the public.
You know, they always went withit, and they never regretted it.
No I and as you pointed out, I don't know if he would be
held in such high regard if hehadn't paid the ultimate sacrifice. But it's
(37:20):
miraculous the country was still standing givenall that transpired, and it's edifying to
understand how they all had this connectionmany times over with the booths and the
Lincolns, but to include spiritualism.Doctor Alfred, you've been wonderful. It
really appreciate your insights and you certainlyhave enriched our series on the Defining Fathers.
(37:45):
Thank you so much. Thank youfor this wonderful program. I appreciate
it. Okay, look forward toseeing you again.
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