Season 1 of "In the Room Where It Happened" focuses on America's defining father, Abraham Lincoln. In the final and fourth episode of the season, former D.C Mayor, Sharon Pratt speaks with New York Times best-selling author Jennifer Chiaverini. The pair discuss Elizabeth Keckley, Mary Todd Lincoln's dressmaker, the role she played in the Lincolns' lives and how she influenced emancipation.
Jennifer Chiaverini is the New York Times bestselling author of thirty-three novels, including critically acclaimed historical fiction such as “Mrs. Lincoln’s Dressmaker,” “Mrs. Lincoln’s Sisters” and “Fates and Traitors: A Novel of John Wilkes Booth.” In 2020, Jennifer was awarded an Outstanding Achievement Award from the Wisconsin Library Association for her novel Resistance Women. In 2023, the WLA awarded her the honor of Notable Wisconsin Author for her significant contributions to the state’s literary heritage.
Jennifer Chiaverini is the New York Times bestselling author of thirty-three novels, including critically acclaimed historical fiction such as “Mrs. Lincoln’s Dressmaker,” “Mrs. Lincoln’s Sisters” and “Fates and Traitors: A Novel of John Wilkes Booth.” In 2020, Jennifer was awarded an Outstanding Achievement Award from the Wisconsin Library Association for her novel Resistance Women. In 2023, the WLA awarded her the honor of Notable Wisconsin Author for her significant contributions to the state’s literary heritage.
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(00:00):
Hi, I'm Sharing Pratt. I'mformer mayor of Washington, d C.
And also the founder of the Instituteof Politics, Policy and History. We
call it ipph IPPH is housed onthe campus of the University of the District
of Columbia, with the mission ofpreserving and celebrating the history of Washington,
(00:21):
d C, our Nation's capital.We have a variety of programs, and
one of them is the type ofprogram we have today. We're going to
have a podcast where we're in theroom with Jennifer kyiv ARENI. We're delighted
to have her because she is aNew York Times bestseller. She's written a
great many books, and some ofthose books are historically based, including Missus
(00:46):
Lincoln's Dressmaker. And this is awonderful book. I read it when it
first came out years ago. Iguess the Washington Post of the New York
Times brought it to my attention.I enjoyed it then, and then I
read it recently in anticipation of ourconversation today. It chronicles in many ways
(01:07):
the life a very interesting, uniquewoman, Elizabeth Keckley, who was a
formerly enslaved woman who becomes the dressmakerfor the first Lady and ultimately, in
many ways is her most trusted confidant. It's quite a wonderful story and beautifully
written. So it's an honor tohave you with us now. Thank you,
(01:30):
It's my pleasure. So what promptedyou to delve into the life of
Elizabeth Keckley? Because I asked thatquestion because it's tough to find any scholarship
around women of that period, muchless a woman who's formally enslaved. What
inspired you want to engage in thiskind of deep dive. Well, I
(01:53):
first heard about Elizabeth Keckley when Iwas researching an earlier novel, and many
of my novels do focus on theart of quilting, and in the course
of researching Civil War era quilts,I came upon the description of a quilt
that is now at the Kent StateUniversity Museum, and it was purported to
(02:16):
be Although the provenance of this quiltisn't one hundred percent certain, it was
said to have been made by ElizabethKeckley, who was Missus Lincoln's dressmaker and
confidant during Mary Lincoln's years as FirstLady, and this quilt was said to
have been made from scraps of allof the luxurious fabrics left over from those
(02:44):
dressmaking sessions. And although this wasn'tthe subject of that particular book, that
brief description and that photograph just immediatelycaptivated my imagination because I thought of the
intimacy between a woman of that eraand her dressmaker, the amount of time
(03:04):
they spend together in such close quarters, the confidences that are shared, And
when I thought of what that dressmakermust have overheard it and what she might
have witnessed while she was in thisrole, I just marveled at it.
I thought what might have been said, what might she have seen that has
(03:25):
been lost to the historical record,And that just stayed with me all those
years later, and then as yearswent by, because this was back in
the nineties when I first discovered this, time went by and I was researching
another novel from that era, andI was looking at the book Team of
Rivals and other historical works, andI noticed that so many of them referenced
(03:50):
this same book called Behind the ScenesThirty Years of Slave, Four Years in
the White House, and I thought, well, this is interesting. They're
all consulting one book as this sourceof important historical information, and then,
so I wanted to know more aboutthat book. And then when I saw
the name Elizabeth Keckley, the sameas the dressmaker who had made that quilt
(04:15):
that I saw so many years ago, I was just absolutely astounded, because
until then I wasn't aware that shewas also an author. And so then
of course I had to go rightout and find a reprint of her memoir.
And then all of those conversations,I imagined that the dressmaker would have
(04:36):
overheard all of the things that shewitnessed. I discovered that Elizabeth Keckley had
described them in her own words,and then I wanted to know more.
My imagination was just humming at thatpoint. I wanted to know, well,
what happened outside the scope of thisbook, and what happened during just
(05:00):
everyday life in Washington, d C. Because those are some things that miss
Keckley did not cover in her book, because everyday life in Washington, D
C. During those years would havebeen well known to her audiences, but
not to a writer in the twentyfirst century curious to know more, so,
I wanted to know everything that shedidn't put into her memoir. Hard
(05:24):
to interrupt your train of thought becauseit's such an interesting journey that you have
taken. And she is an unusualwoman. I mean, how she managed
to move to this position having beenformally enslaved and then finding having the resolve
and fortitude to work her way towardsfreedom, by her freedom and the freedom
(05:46):
of her son. But she cameto Mary Todd Lincoln's attention, as I
understand it, and based of whenyou're writing and some others that she worked
previously for Jefferson davis wife, right, and even Robert E. Lee's wife,
Is that correct? She worked forVerena Davis, and she also worked
(06:09):
for Missus Douglas, who was Lincoln'spresident Lincoln's rival on the campaign trail for
so many years. But Elizabeth Keckleywas in DC before the Lincolns arrived,
before Abraham Lincoln was elected, andthrough her own innate skills, her training,
(06:30):
her gifts as an entrepreneur, shequickly established herself as the dressmaker for
Washington's elite. So when Mary Lincolncame to town and needed a dressmaker,
because she had come from the frontierof Illinois, and she knew that to
make her place in Washington, shehad to look the part while one of
(06:54):
her friends recommended Elizabeth Keckley. ElizabethKeckley went to an interview and imediately won
her over by making sort of atest dress by remodeling or refurbishing one that
she had already had, and shesoon became very, very busy handling all
the dressmaking orders from Missus Lincoln,while also continuing her dressmaking business with other
(07:21):
women in Washington who just absolutely reliedupon her for all of the dresses that
they would need for important society events. And you, since you have such
a focus on quilting, when yousaw what she had done, do you
think that you know that did yousee a skill a quality that set her
(07:44):
apart? There were certainly so muchextraordinary artistry that went into that quilt.
It was sort of in the crazyquilt style, which was very popular at
the time when the quilt was saidto have been made, and it incorporated
not only find stitching, but alsoincredible embroidery. Important dates and things were
(08:07):
inscribed and memorialized in that quilt,as was the custom for that style.
But I think people in DC cansee examples of Elizabeth Keckley's work for themselves.
One of the gowns that she sewedfor Mary Lincoln is on display at
in the Smithsonian right now, andI certainly made a trip to see that
(08:30):
for myself. And it's one thingto read descriptions of her beautiful artistry,
because it really is a work ofart. The elaborate sewing and fitting every
dress had to be precisely custom madeto the individual wearer, and seeing her
work in the Smithsonian on display,given this place of honor, was certainly
(08:54):
very moving, and it absolutely confirmedall of the testimonials to her extraordinary skill
as a dressmaker. To see iton how long would it take, let's
say, to make one of thesegowns, Well, for someone like miss
Keckley, who not only did thework herself but had apprentices and other dreams
(09:16):
working for her, it could takeanywhere from several weeks to several months.
And that process involved measuring the client, discussing the client's need needs, what
sort of fabric they desired, andthen any number of fittings and then you
know, tailoring to make the dressfit exactly right. You also not only
(09:39):
tell us about I mean, youdon't focus as much on her skills as
a seamstress as a court tour,so to speak, at that time.
But her inner feelings, I mean, how she navigated this complicated space.
Complicated in the sense that you know, she formally and slipped a woman working
(10:01):
for somebody who herself was the childof enslavers, living at a time of
such tension. But I think youreally do capture and authenticity about what she
probably thought. Some of it youmay have garnered from her own writings,
But how was that journey of tryingto really get a grasp of her thinking
(10:22):
and sentiments. That is one ofthe most challenging aspects of writing historical fiction.
And with a character like Elizabeth Keckleywho is based upon a historical figure,
someone that I read about and havecome to admire so much, it's
especially important to me to get itright. So when you're reading historical fiction
(10:46):
and you were reading about the character'sthoughts and personal feelings and conversations with other
characters that could not possibly have beenpart of the historical record, then you
do have to know that a lotof that is the product of the novelist's
imagination. What I always try todo in my historical fiction is to learn
(11:09):
as much about the historical figure Ican both from their own writing, if
as in the case of Elizabeth Keckley, I'm fortunate enough that something exists,
but also upon what other contemporaries mighthave written about that person, perhaps what
was written in a newspaper interview orin someone else's letters, or in that
(11:31):
person's own letters, And then Itry to get all that together to get
a good idea of what that personwas like, and what they might have
done in a certain situation, andwhat they might have felt when confronted with
a particular problem or new experience.And then, knowing what I know of
(11:54):
the historical figure, then I tryto hold as truly as I can and
to what they have said and whatis known about them when I am creating
their imagined life. Now another tomanage, I think, to pick up
on the subtleties of those all complicatedrelationships, and how she may have reacted
(12:18):
to something Mary or Todd Lincoln said, which I gather from your novel.
You perceived her as being very fondof the first lady. She was,
and I think that they had aninteresting relationship, and it was of course
complicated by fact that there was thispower imbalance. You know, there was
(12:39):
someone who's not really an employee,but you know, because of matters of
race and class, they were thesame genders, so they had that in
common. But Mary Lincoln was thefirst Lady, so there it was never
really a friendship of equals, butthey both did benefit from this relationship.
(13:00):
Mary Todd Lincoln's friendship gave Elizabeth financialincentives of financial security and also gave her
an entree into another level of Washingtonsociety, which was very good for her
business. And then, of courseElizabeth provided not only her extraordinary skill,
(13:20):
but she was wise and she wasunderstanding. She could be patient with Mary's
very difficult personality in a way thatother people often became too exasperated with her
to tolerate for long. And Ithink that there were moments when Elizabeth did
(13:43):
lose patience with her. Sometimes Marydid demand too much, But Elizabeth just
was able to understand Mary and sympathizewith her and empathize with her in a
way that Mary desperately needed in asituation where she was not popular in Washington,
(14:07):
and she of course had all theseburdens with being the first Lady at
a time of war. And thenof course when she when Abraham Lincoln was
assassinated. Elizabeth was there for herin her time of extraordinary grief and helped
her get through that in part becauseof her loyalty to Mary and her friendship
(14:30):
with Mary, but also because ofher respect and admiration for the late president,
whom she admired very much. Andyou think she had influence over the
president. I know that people speakof how Frederick Douglass pushed Lincoln around the
issue of emancipation, and then ofcourse Lincoln contemplated it, having previously recently
(14:54):
emancipated ship to other countries. Doyou think Keckley played role in changing his
thinking on that? I do believeshe did not, perhaps as an advisor
in the way Frederick Douglas served andworked with Lincoln, but I think by
being in the household and by engagingin conversations and learning about Elizabeth's needs and
(15:22):
about you know, what her lifewas like as a self emancipated woman in
Washington, d C. Especially whenthere was still slavery in Washington, d
C. And learning about Elizabeth's commitmentto other slaves, former formerly enslaved people
who came to DC and were calledcontraband her founding of the Contraband Relief Association,
(15:48):
to see these needs of people whoyou know, were now free,
but had no skills, had nomoney, had no place to live.
I think hearing Elizabeth talk about theseish shoes and seeing her commitment to making
not only her own life better,but the lives of other people better,
(16:08):
I think that had to have hadsome kind of influence on him, not
perhaps as an official advisor, butjust daily interaction or nearly daily interaction and
learning from her lift experiences that therewas a lot more going on that perhaps
he was not aware of, andother complications that he needed to take into
(16:30):
account when formulating some of his actualpolicies, and that initiative of hers had
quite a profound impact. I getit did, And you know, when
talking about what her legacy was,I think it really is immeasurable. We
do have her memoir and the waythat it gives insight into this extraordinary experience
(16:55):
she had and also the innermost workingof the White House during the Lincoln era,
but we will never be able toknow the vast extent of her influence
as a teacher in her in foundingthe Contrabandi Relief Association, seeing and personally
participating in the education of all ofthese newly emancipated people who came to DC.
(17:22):
She personally taught sewing and cooking andbasic household skills to help people as
they were making their way in freedomfor the first time. And then the
number of young black women that shetook on as apprentices and gave them skills
as dressmakers so that they could becomeentrepreneurs as well and establish their own lives.
(17:49):
We will never know extent of that. And of course she was also
a teacher at Wilberforce University. Herextent is a teacher and helping other black
women, especially make their way inthis wholly transformed United States, must have
been profound. And you know thatthat is something that I hope she is
(18:11):
also remembered. Yeah, and youknow, we're trying to and what we
do is we call it also rediscoveringthe history of Washington, d C.
It's amazing lack of scholarship around thiscapital, which it's help only became a
capital because a few founding fathers decidingthey wanted the capital and the south because
(18:36):
they didn't want it in that abolitionistleading state of Pennsylvania. So but understanding
what is unique about this place ithas produced. It still is not a
completely fully participate, full participant inthe American experience. We still don't have
voting representation, but it has producedan awful lot of lead. And you're
(19:00):
wondering where did that come from andhow did that happen? And you want
to go back and say, well, someone like Elizabeth Keckley must have helped
also establish some of the contours forwhat became a very important power center,
not only for all of America,but especially when you think of a recently
(19:21):
emancipated community for black ben her memoirhelps establish you know, she was really
seizing control of literature and of memoiras a way to establish herself as a
member of this new United States.Newly United States. Taking authorship is really
(19:44):
something that it's in a way,it's claiming power for herself. And I
think that we remember her because ofher book that she wrote, and we
know her because of her association withMissus Lincoln. And that makes me wonder
what other stories don't we know becausedidn't have this particular connection to these historical
(20:10):
figures. And I think we canget insights into that by probing more deeply
into primary resources. And just foran example, one of the families that
she boarded with, the Walkers,they were black free people in DC,
and they ran a thriving catering business, and so how many other There is
(20:34):
a strong thriving black middle class inWashington, d C. Before emancipation and
onward. And I think that wewould all be enriched, not just people
in DC and not just Black Americans, but all Americans would be enriched by
(20:56):
knowing more about the lives of allof these Americans. And I hope that
that scholarship is ongoing, and Ihope that with new resources that we have
for digitizing archives and the wonderful commitmentthat our librarians have to archive and preserving
(21:18):
these documents, I hope that moreand more of that will will come out,
and I hope to see more andmore of that in the public schools.
I wish that I had learned aboutElizabeth Keckley in my history classes and
so many other people like her,and I would really like to see that
happen. And I try to domy part in the fiction that I write,
(21:41):
but the work of historians that's ongoing, I think is so absolutely crucial
to all of us to understanding thereal and full story of the United States,
and of course Washington, d c. In particular. Well, you
know, there's such a confluence ofsort of a newly front of citizenship that
(22:02):
occurs in the country as we're approachingthe Civil War. So it would seem
to me one with obviously the abolitionistmovement, because we the people had had
a rather narrow definition with the foundingFathers, but also with the suffragette movement
that is also developing at this time. It's interesting that both are happening,
(22:22):
and Frederick Douglas is trying to,you know, be in both camps,
and both camps are also you know, Elizabeth Katie Stanton and others are working
with Frederick Douglas as a way toget the benefit of the abolitionist movement.
But I'm not certain why we suddenlysee this kind of energy happening, and
(22:44):
clearly it plays itself out rather dramatically. It certainly does. And as Frederick
Douglass was, he was one ofthe few men, he might have been
the only man at Seneca Falls atthe convention. But yes, there is
a very has traditionally been a kinshipbetween the abolitionist movement and the suffrage movement.
(23:06):
Unfortunately, white suffragists have not alwaysdone right by their black sisters.
And we see that, you know, in the nineteenth century. We see
that all the way into the twentiethcentury, and I've written about that in
some other books. But we seethat with the with iw Wells Barnett and
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how her work for suffrage, herwork with the anti lynching movement, and
you know how she wanted to participatein the nineteenth thirteen Women's Suffrage March,
and she was told she could participatein a segregated group rather than marching with
the other women in from Illinois,from her home state. So I think
(23:52):
that in many ways we do seecollaboration between those two parties, but unfortunately
it was not always wholehearted. Therewere plenty of women who wanted suffrage for
themselves, but not for black women. And I think that all of these
issues are so fraught and so entangled, and I think we we do no
(24:17):
one any good by pretending those problemsweren't there. We don't do ourselves any
good if we pretend they aren't goingon today. I think that part of
looking at history and celebrating the heroinesand the heroes of the past, we
also have to look at their failings. We also have to look at where
they went wrong and where as acountry we haven't always lived up to the
(24:42):
promises that we made ourselves in theDeclaration of Independence. You brought up one
thing, Lincoln. I admire Lincolngreatly. I certainly do not think that
taking all of the newly emancipated slavesformer slaves and sh being them off to
Africa was in any way a verygood idea, And I think Frederick Douglass
(25:06):
rightly set him straight on that wedo have to accept, you know,
we have to look and we haveto reckon with where these people we admire
from the past went where they didwell, while also accepting that they also
had some you know, moral grayareas, and look, turning away is
(25:26):
not the answer. Dealing with themcivilly, I think, and with integrity
and with an honest the honest questions, I think is the way to go.
Well. One of the sort ofsort of to close it out that
one of the purposes we see inuh examining history one is just to share
(25:48):
it. It's important, like youcan point out, but you know,
we learned from it informs us aboutwhat we may be struggling with today.
Uh, and possibly only because ofwhat were strutted with today, At least
for me, I'm a political scientist, not a historian, but when I
read this history now, I appreciatethat this was not to overdo this term
(26:14):
an inflection point in American history.When Lincoln came into office. He Now
you almost seem it almost seems preordainedall of the events that unfolded in terms
of you know Lincoln, so Ibelieve you know, he always had a
premonition about his purpose in life.He was a man who spoke aggressively about
(26:37):
thinking slavery was immoral, but certainlywas not prepared to be an abolitionist.
And how all of the events thatunfolded, from my advantage point, occurred
during Holy Week, I mean theappomatics Palm Sunday is a fatal blow good
Friday, and the country convenes tomourn him on Easter and booth He also
(27:03):
had sort of almost preordained. Howdid he happen to show up on April
fourteen just to pick up his mail? I mean, it's not like at
the Ford Theater. And then say, oh, yeah, this is my
chance. It was the country movingin a certain direction, and as the
world was exploding with new definitions ofwho gets to be with the people right
(27:29):
and the situation of slavery, itwas untenable. It was never going to
last. It couldn't because it's inhumane, and it wasn't going to be able
to endure. But there were somepeople who were willing to just well,
you know what, eventually it's goingto die out. Well, you just
have to be patient. And it'seasy to say if you are in a
position of safety and you're not theone who's suffering. One of the things
(27:53):
that I love about writing historical fictionis that it gives me the opportunity to
explore all these different issues and answerthe questions that I know, kind of
explore issues that pique my curiosity.But I'm often asked why why not focus
on why not write biography? Whynot write history from a nonfiction point of
(28:18):
view? I turned to fiction andmy writing because one of the things that
I think fiction does is that itputs you into the perspective of that narrator,
of that fictional character, and itnot only gives you a description of
what happened. It's not only anarrative of what happened, but it also
gives you a strong sense of howit felt. So you're put into that
(28:45):
person's point of view and you vicariouslythrough the reading experience through their eyes.
And I think that that helps developyour empathy, if you can understand more
why a fictional character is making thesechoices or confronting this issue in this particular
way. I like to believe thatnot only will that give you a better
(29:08):
understanding of the story itself, ofthe historical era it covers, and the
people it describes, but I alsohope that it will give us the skills
to use that empathy in our reallives. You know, if we're asked
to understand how if we're kind ofgiving ourselves the training to understand how fictional
(29:29):
characters behave, we might use thosethat empathetic impulse to understand what's going on
in the world now. And Ialso think that reading history and reading historical
fiction can inspire us. We cansee that people very much like us went
through very difficult challenges in the past, and they drew upon their resources,
(29:52):
they joined together, and they overcamethem, or they at least did the
thing and try to overcome those challenges. And I think that can tell us
that if they did it, thenwe can marshal those same strengths and that
same community organizing to overcome the strugglesthat we face today. Sometimes their struggles
(30:18):
are very different, sometimes they areremarkably similar, but looking back to the
past and taking those lessons from historycan inspire us to empower us to fight
the challenges that we face. Now, you're a wonderful writer, and you
know, you really are, andyou know, I said it will close
(30:40):
it up, but still i'd haveto say what you said when you did
about having empathy. You know,her visit to her formerly and slave,
where they were also relatives. Youknow, yes, yep, that that
you know, there's such a complicatedhistory that we never want to address that
they were relatives, and so Imean some she didn't like it, hated
(31:03):
didn't, you know, And thesewere ones with whom in spite of it
all, there was some some personalemotional connection and stayed with them several weeks.
I thought that was a very richmoment because it deal makes us deal
with those contradictions, those complicated moments, you know, and you certainly have
(31:23):
it all over the place with TomasJefferson and people like that. You know,
uh, what a complicated history.Uh. And we and and and
because we're so not honest about it, we we we struggle with all of
that still today. When you area magnificent writer, it's a pleasure to
read your work, it really is. And you bring that passion and insight
(31:47):
uh to your to your work.And you've been a great asset to us
here uh in the room with Jenniferkia Verini and I. You know,
I'm so self conscious of my abilityto pronounce any name other than something from
the South, and I always stumbleover. That's why I'm totally empathetic with
(32:07):
people who do this in the public, Areda. But thank you very much.
You've been a wonderful asset to us. And I encourage everybody to read
of Missus Lincoln's Dressmaker, as wellas any number of other wonderful works,
including all of your works in thearea of puilting. And for those who
(32:28):
want to learn more about what we'redoing here, it's at ipph dot org.
Thank you so very much. Thankyou
Hi, I'm Sharing Pratt. I'mformer mayor of Washington, d C.
And also the founder of the Instituteof Politics, Policy and History. We
call it ipph IPPH is housed onthe campus of the University of the District
of Columbia, with the mission ofpreserving and celebrating the history of Washington,
(00:21):
d C, our Nation's capital.We have a variety of programs, and
one of them is the type ofprogram we have today. We're going to
have a podcast where we're in theroom with Jennifer kyiv ARENI. We're delighted
to have her because she is aNew York Times bestseller. She's written a
great many books, and some ofthose books are historically based, including Missus
(00:46):
Lincoln's Dressmaker. And this is awonderful book. I read it when it
first came out years ago. Iguess the Washington Post of the New York
Times brought it to my attention.I enjoyed it then, and then I
read it recently in anticipation of ourconversation today. It chronicles in many ways
(01:07):
the life a very interesting, uniquewoman, Elizabeth Keckley, who was a
formerly enslaved woman who becomes the dressmakerfor the first Lady and ultimately, in
many ways is her most trusted confidant. It's quite a wonderful story and beautifully
written. So it's an honor tohave you with us now. Thank you,
(01:30):
It's my pleasure. So what promptedyou to delve into the life of
Elizabeth Keckley? Because I asked thatquestion because it's tough to find any scholarship
around women of that period, muchless a woman who's formally enslaved. What
inspired you want to engage in thiskind of deep dive. Well, I
(01:53):
first heard about Elizabeth Keckley when Iwas researching an earlier novel, and many
of my novels do focus on theart of quilting, and in the course
of researching Civil War era quilts,I came upon the description of a quilt
that is now at the Kent StateUniversity Museum, and it was purported to
(02:16):
be Although the provenance of this quiltisn't one hundred percent certain, it was
said to have been made by ElizabethKeckley, who was Missus Lincoln's dressmaker and
confidant during Mary Lincoln's years as FirstLady, and this quilt was said to
have been made from scraps of allof the luxurious fabrics left over from those
(02:44):
dressmaking sessions. And although this wasn'tthe subject of that particular book, that
brief description and that photograph just immediatelycaptivated my imagination because I thought of the
intimacy between a woman of that eraand her dressmaker, the amount of time
(03:04):
they spend together in such close quarters, the confidences that are shared, And
when I thought of what that dressmakermust have overheard it and what she might
have witnessed while she was in thisrole, I just marveled at it.
I thought what might have been said, what might she have seen that has
(03:25):
been lost to the historical record,And that just stayed with me all those
years later, and then as yearswent by, because this was back in
the nineties when I first discovered this, time went by and I was researching
another novel from that era, andI was looking at the book Team of
Rivals and other historical works, andI noticed that so many of them referenced
(03:50):
this same book called Behind the ScenesThirty Years of Slave, Four Years in
the White House, and I thought, well, this is interesting. They're
all consulting one book as this sourceof important historical information, and then,
so I wanted to know more aboutthat book. And then when I saw
the name Elizabeth Keckley, the sameas the dressmaker who had made that quilt
(04:15):
that I saw so many years ago, I was just absolutely astounded, because
until then I wasn't aware that shewas also an author. And so then
of course I had to go rightout and find a reprint of her memoir.
And then all of those conversations,I imagined that the dressmaker would have
(04:36):
overheard all of the things that shewitnessed. I discovered that Elizabeth Keckley had
described them in her own words,and then I wanted to know more.
My imagination was just humming at thatpoint. I wanted to know, well,
what happened outside the scope of thisbook, and what happened during just
(05:00):
everyday life in Washington, d C. Because those are some things that miss
Keckley did not cover in her book, because everyday life in Washington, D
C. During those years would havebeen well known to her audiences, but
not to a writer in the twentyfirst century curious to know more, so,
I wanted to know everything that shedidn't put into her memoir. Hard
(05:24):
to interrupt your train of thought becauseit's such an interesting journey that you have
taken. And she is an unusualwoman. I mean, how she managed
to move to this position having beenformally enslaved and then finding having the resolve
and fortitude to work her way towardsfreedom, by her freedom and the freedom
(05:46):
of her son. But she cameto Mary Todd Lincoln's attention, as I
understand it, and based of whenyou're writing and some others that she worked
previously for Jefferson davis wife, right, and even Robert E. Lee's wife,
Is that correct? She worked forVerena Davis, and she also worked
(06:09):
for Missus Douglas, who was Lincoln'spresident Lincoln's rival on the campaign trail for
so many years. But Elizabeth Keckleywas in DC before the Lincolns arrived,
before Abraham Lincoln was elected, andthrough her own innate skills, her training,
(06:30):
her gifts as an entrepreneur, shequickly established herself as the dressmaker for
Washington's elite. So when Mary Lincolncame to town and needed a dressmaker,
because she had come from the frontierof Illinois, and she knew that to
make her place in Washington, shehad to look the part while one of
(06:54):
her friends recommended Elizabeth Keckley. ElizabethKeckley went to an interview and imediately won
her over by making sort of atest dress by remodeling or refurbishing one that
she had already had, and shesoon became very, very busy handling all
the dressmaking orders from Missus Lincoln,while also continuing her dressmaking business with other
(07:21):
women in Washington who just absolutely reliedupon her for all of the dresses that
they would need for important society events. And you, since you have such
a focus on quilting, when yousaw what she had done, do you
think that you know that did yousee a skill a quality that set her
(07:44):
apart? There were certainly so muchextraordinary artistry that went into that quilt.
It was sort of in the crazyquilt style, which was very popular at
the time when the quilt was saidto have been made, and it incorporated
not only find stitching, but alsoincredible embroidery. Important dates and things were
(08:07):
inscribed and memorialized in that quilt,as was the custom for that style.
But I think people in DC cansee examples of Elizabeth Keckley's work for themselves.
One of the gowns that she sewedfor Mary Lincoln is on display at
in the Smithsonian right now, andI certainly made a trip to see that
(08:30):
for myself. And it's one thingto read descriptions of her beautiful artistry,
because it really is a work ofart. The elaborate sewing and fitting every
dress had to be precisely custom madeto the individual wearer, and seeing her
work in the Smithsonian on display,given this place of honor, was certainly
(08:54):
very moving, and it absolutely confirmedall of the testimonials to her extraordinary skill
as a dressmaker. To see iton how long would it take, let's
say, to make one of thesegowns, Well, for someone like miss
Keckley, who not only did thework herself but had apprentices and other dreams
(09:16):
working for her, it could takeanywhere from several weeks to several months.
And that process involved measuring the client, discussing the client's need needs, what
sort of fabric they desired, andthen any number of fittings and then you
know, tailoring to make the dressfit exactly right. You also not only
(09:39):
tell us about I mean, youdon't focus as much on her skills as
a seamstress as a court tour,so to speak, at that time.
But her inner feelings, I mean, how she navigated this complicated space.
Complicated in the sense that you know, she formally and slipped a woman working
(10:01):
for somebody who herself was the childof enslavers, living at a time of
such tension. But I think youreally do capture and authenticity about what she
probably thought. Some of it youmay have garnered from her own writings,
But how was that journey of tryingto really get a grasp of her thinking
(10:22):
and sentiments. That is one ofthe most challenging aspects of writing historical fiction.
And with a character like Elizabeth Keckleywho is based upon a historical figure,
someone that I read about and havecome to admire so much, it's
especially important to me to get itright. So when you're reading historical fiction
(10:46):
and you were reading about the character'sthoughts and personal feelings and conversations with other
characters that could not possibly have beenpart of the historical record, then you
do have to know that a lotof that is the product of the novelist's
imagination. What I always try todo in my historical fiction is to learn
(11:09):
as much about the historical figure Ican both from their own writing, if
as in the case of Elizabeth Keckley, I'm fortunate enough that something exists,
but also upon what other contemporaries mighthave written about that person, perhaps what
was written in a newspaper interview orin someone else's letters, or in that
(11:31):
person's own letters, And then Itry to get all that together to get
a good idea of what that personwas like, and what they might have
done in a certain situation, andwhat they might have felt when confronted with
a particular problem or new experience.And then, knowing what I know of
(11:54):
the historical figure, then I tryto hold as truly as I can and
to what they have said and whatis known about them when I am creating
their imagined life. Now another tomanage, I think, to pick up
on the subtleties of those all complicatedrelationships, and how she may have reacted
(12:18):
to something Mary or Todd Lincoln said, which I gather from your novel.
You perceived her as being very fondof the first lady. She was,
and I think that they had aninteresting relationship, and it was of course
complicated by fact that there was thispower imbalance. You know, there was
(12:39):
someone who's not really an employee,but you know, because of matters of
race and class, they were thesame genders, so they had that in
common. But Mary Lincoln was thefirst Lady, so there it was never
really a friendship of equals, butthey both did benefit from this relationship.
(13:00):
Mary Todd Lincoln's friendship gave Elizabeth financialincentives of financial security and also gave her
an entree into another level of Washingtonsociety, which was very good for her
business. And then, of courseElizabeth provided not only her extraordinary skill,
(13:20):
but she was wise and she wasunderstanding. She could be patient with Mary's
very difficult personality in a way thatother people often became too exasperated with her
to tolerate for long. And Ithink that there were moments when Elizabeth did
(13:43):
lose patience with her. Sometimes Marydid demand too much, But Elizabeth just
was able to understand Mary and sympathizewith her and empathize with her in a
way that Mary desperately needed in asituation where she was not popular in Washington,
(14:07):
and she of course had all theseburdens with being the first Lady at
a time of war. And thenof course when she when Abraham Lincoln was
assassinated. Elizabeth was there for herin her time of extraordinary grief and helped
her get through that in part becauseof her loyalty to Mary and her friendship
(14:30):
with Mary, but also because ofher respect and admiration for the late president,
whom she admired very much. Andyou think she had influence over the
president. I know that people speakof how Frederick Douglass pushed Lincoln around the
issue of emancipation, and then ofcourse Lincoln contemplated it, having previously recently
(14:54):
emancipated ship to other countries. Doyou think Keckley played role in changing his
thinking on that? I do believeshe did not, perhaps as an advisor
in the way Frederick Douglas served andworked with Lincoln, but I think by
being in the household and by engagingin conversations and learning about Elizabeth's needs and
(15:22):
about you know, what her lifewas like as a self emancipated woman in
Washington, d C. Especially whenthere was still slavery in Washington, d
C. And learning about Elizabeth's commitmentto other slaves, former formerly enslaved people
who came to DC and were calledcontraband her founding of the Contraband Relief Association,
(15:48):
to see these needs of people whoyou know, were now free,
but had no skills, had nomoney, had no place to live.
I think hearing Elizabeth talk about theseish shoes and seeing her commitment to making
not only her own life better,but the lives of other people better,
(16:08):
I think that had to have hadsome kind of influence on him, not
perhaps as an official advisor, butjust daily interaction or nearly daily interaction and
learning from her lift experiences that therewas a lot more going on that perhaps
he was not aware of, andother complications that he needed to take into
(16:30):
account when formulating some of his actualpolicies, and that initiative of hers had
quite a profound impact. I getit did, And you know, when
talking about what her legacy was,I think it really is immeasurable. We
do have her memoir and the waythat it gives insight into this extraordinary experience
(16:55):
she had and also the innermost workingof the White House during the Lincoln era,
but we will never be able toknow the vast extent of her influence
as a teacher in her in foundingthe Contrabandi Relief Association, seeing and personally
participating in the education of all ofthese newly emancipated people who came to DC.
(17:22):
She personally taught sewing and cooking andbasic household skills to help people as
they were making their way in freedomfor the first time. And then the
number of young black women that shetook on as apprentices and gave them skills
as dressmakers so that they could becomeentrepreneurs as well and establish their own lives.
(17:49):
We will never know extent of that. And of course she was also
a teacher at Wilberforce University. Herextent is a teacher and helping other black
women, especially make their way inthis wholly transformed United States, must have
been profound. And you know thatthat is something that I hope she is
(18:11):
also remembered. Yeah, and youknow, we're trying to and what we
do is we call it also rediscoveringthe history of Washington, d C.
It's amazing lack of scholarship around thiscapital, which it's help only became a
capital because a few founding fathers decidingthey wanted the capital and the south because
(18:36):
they didn't want it in that abolitionistleading state of Pennsylvania. So but understanding
what is unique about this place ithas produced. It still is not a
completely fully participate, full participant inthe American experience. We still don't have
voting representation, but it has producedan awful lot of lead. And you're
(19:00):
wondering where did that come from andhow did that happen? And you want
to go back and say, well, someone like Elizabeth Keckley must have helped
also establish some of the contours forwhat became a very important power center,
not only for all of America,but especially when you think of a recently
(19:21):
emancipated community for black ben her memoirhelps establish you know, she was really
seizing control of literature and of memoiras a way to establish herself as a
member of this new United States.Newly United States. Taking authorship is really
(19:44):
something that it's in a way,it's claiming power for herself. And I
think that we remember her because ofher book that she wrote, and we
know her because of her association withMissus Lincoln. And that makes me wonder
what other stories don't we know becausedidn't have this particular connection to these historical
(20:10):
figures. And I think we canget insights into that by probing more deeply
into primary resources. And just foran example, one of the families that
she boarded with, the Walkers,they were black free people in DC,
and they ran a thriving catering business, and so how many other There is
(20:34):
a strong thriving black middle class inWashington, d C. Before emancipation and
onward. And I think that wewould all be enriched, not just people
in DC and not just Black Americans, but all Americans would be enriched by
(20:56):
knowing more about the lives of allof these Americans. And I hope that
that scholarship is ongoing, and Ihope that with new resources that we have
for digitizing archives and the wonderful commitmentthat our librarians have to archive and preserving
(21:18):
these documents, I hope that moreand more of that will will come out,
and I hope to see more andmore of that in the public schools.
I wish that I had learned aboutElizabeth Keckley in my history classes and
so many other people like her,and I would really like to see that
happen. And I try to domy part in the fiction that I write,
(21:41):
but the work of historians that's ongoing, I think is so absolutely crucial
to all of us to understanding thereal and full story of the United States,
and of course Washington, d c. In particular. Well, you
know, there's such a confluence ofsort of a newly front of citizenship that
(22:02):
occurs in the country as we're approachingthe Civil War. So it would seem
to me one with obviously the abolitionistmovement, because we the people had had
a rather narrow definition with the foundingFathers, but also with the suffragette movement
that is also developing at this time. It's interesting that both are happening,
(22:22):
and Frederick Douglas is trying to,you know, be in both camps,
and both camps are also you know, Elizabeth Katie Stanton and others are working
with Frederick Douglas as a way toget the benefit of the abolitionist movement.
But I'm not certain why we suddenlysee this kind of energy happening, and
(22:44):
clearly it plays itself out rather dramatically. It certainly does. And as Frederick
Douglass was, he was one ofthe few men, he might have been
the only man at Seneca Falls atthe convention. But yes, there is
a very has traditionally been a kinshipbetween the abolitionist movement and the suffrage movement.
(23:06):
Unfortunately, white suffragists have not alwaysdone right by their black sisters.
And we see that, you know, in the nineteenth century. We see
that all the way into the twentiethcentury, and I've written about that in
some other books. But we seethat with the with iw Wells Barnett and
(23:29):
how her work for suffrage, herwork with the anti lynching movement, and
you know how she wanted to participatein the nineteenth thirteen Women's Suffrage March,
and she was told she could participatein a segregated group rather than marching with
the other women in from Illinois,from her home state. So I think
(23:52):
that in many ways we do seecollaboration between those two parties, but unfortunately
it was not always wholehearted. Therewere plenty of women who wanted suffrage for
themselves, but not for black women. And I think that all of these
issues are so fraught and so entangled, and I think we we do no
(24:17):
one any good by pretending those problemsweren't there. We don't do ourselves any
good if we pretend they aren't goingon today. I think that part of
looking at history and celebrating the heroinesand the heroes of the past, we
also have to look at their failings. We also have to look at where
they went wrong and where as acountry we haven't always lived up to the
(24:42):
promises that we made ourselves in theDeclaration of Independence. You brought up one
thing, Lincoln. I admire Lincolngreatly. I certainly do not think that
taking all of the newly emancipated slavesformer slaves and sh being them off to
Africa was in any way a verygood idea, And I think Frederick Douglass
(25:06):
rightly set him straight on that wedo have to accept, you know,
we have to look and we haveto reckon with where these people we admire
from the past went where they didwell, while also accepting that they also
had some you know, moral grayareas, and look, turning away is
(25:26):
not the answer. Dealing with themcivilly, I think, and with integrity
and with an honest the honest questions, I think is the way to go.
Well. One of the sort ofsort of to close it out that
one of the purposes we see inuh examining history one is just to share
(25:48):
it. It's important, like youcan point out, but you know,
we learned from it informs us aboutwhat we may be struggling with today.
Uh, and possibly only because ofwhat were strutted with today, At least
for me, I'm a political scientist, not a historian, but when I
read this history now, I appreciatethat this was not to overdo this term
(26:14):
an inflection point in American history.When Lincoln came into office. He Now
you almost seem it almost seems preordainedall of the events that unfolded in terms
of you know Lincoln, so Ibelieve you know, he always had a
premonition about his purpose in life.He was a man who spoke aggressively about
(26:37):
thinking slavery was immoral, but certainlywas not prepared to be an abolitionist.
And how all of the events thatunfolded, from my advantage point, occurred
during Holy Week, I mean theappomatics Palm Sunday is a fatal blow good
Friday, and the country convenes tomourn him on Easter and booth He also
(27:03):
had sort of almost preordained. Howdid he happen to show up on April
fourteen just to pick up his mail? I mean, it's not like at
the Ford Theater. And then say, oh, yeah, this is my
chance. It was the country movingin a certain direction, and as the
world was exploding with new definitions ofwho gets to be with the people right
(27:29):
and the situation of slavery, itwas untenable. It was never going to
last. It couldn't because it's inhumane, and it wasn't going to be able
to endure. But there were somepeople who were willing to just well,
you know what, eventually it's goingto die out. Well, you just
have to be patient. And it'seasy to say if you are in a
position of safety and you're not theone who's suffering. One of the things
(27:53):
that I love about writing historical fictionis that it gives me the opportunity to
explore all these different issues and answerthe questions that I know, kind of
explore issues that pique my curiosity.But I'm often asked why why not focus
on why not write biography? Whynot write history from a nonfiction point of
(28:18):
view? I turned to fiction andmy writing because one of the things that
I think fiction does is that itputs you into the perspective of that narrator,
of that fictional character, and itnot only gives you a description of
what happened. It's not only anarrative of what happened, but it also
gives you a strong sense of howit felt. So you're put into that
(28:45):
person's point of view and you vicariouslythrough the reading experience through their eyes.
And I think that that helps developyour empathy, if you can understand more
why a fictional character is making thesechoices or confronting this issue in this particular
way. I like to believe thatnot only will that give you a better
(29:08):
understanding of the story itself, ofthe historical era it covers, and the
people it describes, but I alsohope that it will give us the skills
to use that empathy in our reallives. You know, if we're asked
to understand how if we're kind ofgiving ourselves the training to understand how fictional
(29:29):
characters behave, we might use thosethat empathetic impulse to understand what's going on
in the world now. And Ialso think that reading history and reading historical
fiction can inspire us. We cansee that people very much like us went
through very difficult challenges in the past, and they drew upon their resources,
(29:52):
they joined together, and they overcamethem, or they at least did the
thing and try to overcome those challenges. And I think that can tell us
that if they did it, thenwe can marshal those same strengths and that
same community organizing to overcome the strugglesthat we face today. Sometimes their struggles
(30:18):
are very different, sometimes they areremarkably similar, but looking back to the
past and taking those lessons from historycan inspire us to empower us to fight
the challenges that we face. Now, you're a wonderful writer, and you
know, you really are, andyou know, I said it will close
(30:40):
it up, but still i'd haveto say what you said when you did
about having empathy. You know,her visit to her formerly and slave,
where they were also relatives. Youknow, yes, yep, that that
you know, there's such a complicatedhistory that we never want to address that
they were relatives, and so Imean some she didn't like it, hated
(31:03):
didn't, you know, And thesewere ones with whom in spite of it
all, there was some some personalemotional connection and stayed with them several weeks.
I thought that was a very richmoment because it deal makes us deal
with those contradictions, those complicated moments, you know, and you certainly have
(31:23):
it all over the place with TomasJefferson and people like that. You know,
uh, what a complicated history.Uh. And we and and and
because we're so not honest about it, we we we struggle with all of
that still today. When you area magnificent writer, it's a pleasure to
read your work, it really is. And you bring that passion and insight
(31:47):
uh to your to your work.And you've been a great asset to us
here uh in the room with Jenniferkia Verini and I. You know,
I'm so self conscious of my abilityto pronounce any name other than something from
the South, and I always stumbleover. That's why I'm totally empathetic with
(32:07):
people who do this in the public, Areda. But thank you very much.
You've been a wonderful asset to us. And I encourage everybody to read
of Missus Lincoln's Dressmaker, as wellas any number of other wonderful works,
including all of your works in thearea of puilting. And for those who
(32:28):
want to learn more about what we'redoing here, it's at ipph dot org.
Thank you so very much. Thankyou
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