September 2, 2025 • 44 mins
My special guest in this episode of the It's All Possible podcast is Lorraine K. Lee. San Francisco based Lorraine and I met through LinkedIn (where Lorraine as of September 2025 has over 326,000 followers) when I contacted her regarding her best-selling book "Unforgettable Presence: Get Seen, Gain Influence, and Catapult Your Career" which I thoroughly recommend to everyone, no matter what stage your career is at.
Lorraine K. Lee is also an award-winning keynote speaker and is passionate about helping ambitious professionals go from overlooked to unforgettable in the modern workplace, and her frameworks have been adopted by Fortune 500 companies and other globally recognised organisations including Zoom, Amazon, Cisco, and many others. She is recognised as a LinkedIn Top Voice in workplace communication and presence. When Lorraine isn’t speaking, she teaches popular courses at Stanford Continuing Studies and LinkedIn Learning. Before starting her own company, Lorraine spent over a decade as a founding editor at top tech firms like LinkedIn and Prezi. Her insights have been featured in media outlets including CNBC, Forbes, Bloomberg, Fast Company, and Business Insider. She received her BSJ from Northwestern’s Medill School of Journalism.
In this podcast we cover career tips, social media tips, presentation skills, being the CEO of your career and leadership skills.
You can find out more about Lorraine at her website lorraineklee.com, connect and follow her on LinkedIn and Instgram.
Lorraine K. Lee is also an award-winning keynote speaker and is passionate about helping ambitious professionals go from overlooked to unforgettable in the modern workplace, and her frameworks have been adopted by Fortune 500 companies and other globally recognised organisations including Zoom, Amazon, Cisco, and many others. She is recognised as a LinkedIn Top Voice in workplace communication and presence. When Lorraine isn’t speaking, she teaches popular courses at Stanford Continuing Studies and LinkedIn Learning. Before starting her own company, Lorraine spent over a decade as a founding editor at top tech firms like LinkedIn and Prezi. Her insights have been featured in media outlets including CNBC, Forbes, Bloomberg, Fast Company, and Business Insider. She received her BSJ from Northwestern’s Medill School of Journalism.
In this podcast we cover career tips, social media tips, presentation skills, being the CEO of your career and leadership skills.
You can find out more about Lorraine at her website lorraineklee.com, connect and follow her on LinkedIn and Instgram.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartner, and as your chief possibility officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. And I am beyond excited this morning,
beyond decided because I have with me. You've probably seen
her all over the place. I'll have a social media
(00:47):
especially over our LinkedIn. But this is the amazing Today.
Our special guest is the amazing Lorraine Haylee. Welcome, Lorraine,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
For having me.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm so excited we finally meet.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
This happen. Yeah, we finally got it to have. Now
where are you? Where are you coming from today?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I'm in San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
What about Yes, I'm actually down on the on the
Mornington Peninsula in Melbourne just a little bit.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Okay, you said morning and I said, oh, Okay, so
it's your Saturday, so thank you for the.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It's the Morning in the Mornington Peninsula. It's very good,
very smart. Now won Der you're so good. Hey, look,
I wanted to talk about the book. First of all,
I'm forgettable Presence. I love it. It's it's a great book.
I've written a few, so I know how hard this.
We're going to talk about that a bit later on.
But I love the book. It's so contemporary, it's so
for this moment. It's it doesn't matter where you are
(01:36):
in your career. You can be, you know, kind of
at a super high t directory, you could be starting out.
There is stuff in this book I cannot I just
don't think I can tell you how many people I've
recommended it too, just said.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Okay, what are you reading? What are you reading? What book?
And I go, You've got to read this, You've got
to buy this.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
And I've had people literally go right, I'm on Amazon
now I'm buying Lorraine book. So who does to you?
It's it's it's fantastic. Why did you just saut on
a book in this era of podcasts and streaming wait
for a book?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And how long did it take you to put it
all together.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
It didn't take me a crazy long amount of time.
So it took me, let's say, from when I signed
the contract with Wiley to the actual publication. So I
signed in March of last year and the book came
out late April, so just a little over a year
from start to finish, which is crazy. And writing a
book was not something that I had initially planned for myself.
(02:32):
It was not on my Bengo card. And what ended
up happening was while I was at the last company,
my last corporate company, Prezy, I had come out with
my first LinkedIn learning course and I published it.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I was super.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Excited and an old colleague from an earlier company reached
out to congratulate me, and he sort of made this
joke like, oh, when's the book coming out? And then
I thought, oh, like maybe maybe that makes sense for me,
Like that does sound pretty fun, and I think there's
something really special about having and also like what leads
to the pressure writing a book, Having all your ideas
and best practices and tips and knowledge in this really
(03:04):
physical thing organized right so people can just flip through
and find what they need. Because you know, you're writing
newsletters LinkedIn posts, et cetera. But you have to kind
of cobble all the information together, so the book. It
just felt right when he said that. And then a
few weeks later, I met another colleague. She was an
executive at Google at the time, and then she brought
it up too. She said, have you ever thought about
writing a book? And I thought, okay, you're the second
(03:26):
person who mentioned this, like, I need to do this
at some point, so I classic, yeah, exactly. I ended
up getting laid Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Good, kick gunk gun. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
So I ended up getting laid off a few months later,
and that was when I decided to start my own business.
I started trying to self publish the book and writing
and it's very generous calling it an outline, but just
some ideas, and I just thought, this is too hard.
I want to wait for a traditional publisher and just
get some guidance along the way. And then a year
(03:57):
into my business, that's when Wiley first reached down on
lind and then a few other publishers reached out, and
I took it as a sign from the universe, even
if I felt a little bit nervous, even if I
felt maybe not quite ready, that I should take advantage,
and this was the time to write.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It all on Wiley reaching out. I was going to
ask you about that. How did you get in contact
with Wiley? So it's for your LinkedIn posts and through it?
Was there a particular post that they reached out that
was the trigger?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
You never asked? I don't think so. I think generally
they like people who have a strong LinkedIn presence and
people who are posting regularly, right, because these are people
who they can tell like to get their thoughts and
get their voice out there.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So yeah, that's a really good thing. Point.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I'm going to ask a quick question slightly off topic.
When you say posting regularly, how often I are you
posting on LinkedIn?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Good question? So I actually just cut it down. I
was posting about six times a week and now it's
four to five. Uh, that's a lot for someone, especially
if they're starting off. I would not recommend four to
five to start or four to six, because it is
a lot and it can lead to burnout. So I
for anyone who's just shutting out, I would set the
bar much much lower than that and just get familiar
(05:04):
with they get used to it, and then over time
you can grow to that number.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You know, I think I'm tory posting about four times
a week. I must say, I do try and post
something that I find relevant, and I just they don't
post for posting sake. If I come across something an idea,
I'll post. So it's probably yeah, probably four. You'd be
about four times a week. Backs on the book.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
You know the guy you know, John.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Maxwell, the leadership leadership guru. He's written thirty two books.
He's one of Amazon's biggest ever sellers.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I've heard the name.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, you would have came across it. John's John's writing.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I've been a student of John's and a part of
the John Maxwell team and study under John in the
US a number of times.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I really love this stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
But John had a great way of talking, and he
talked about writing books and he's written so many. And
one of the thing questions he was asked once he
was actually doing it. He was running I'm doing a
speaking gig, but he's a speaking gig, and lady cat
up to him and said, John, I just wanted to
know the fantastic I really enjoyed it. I've actually got
your very first book you wrote, and John said to her,
(06:04):
I'm so sorry. I'm so much better now. I'm so
sorry for that book. And John said it literally had
I think it was something like maybe it was like
fifteen hundred words and had fifteen chapters. Right, so when
you talk about an outline, John said, I wasn't writing
(06:24):
very much.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I was the next chapter and he said it. So
I had to apologize because thought, oh, here, please signon and.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Go I'm so embarrassed, I think, And he said I've
come such a long way. And so the point he
was trying to make is you do the best you
can at the time, and he said that book was
the best that was in me. I couldn't have written
it any better. I didn't try to write a bad book.
But I've come on this journey. I now look back
at it and they go, oh my god, I can't
believe you're on board, Like how do I even sell that?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
But the point is, we only do what we can do,
and we only and I'm sure you're next time, or
third one or everyone you're going to do, you'll look
back and go oh yeah, and you'll write it fast.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I think that's the other thing I've learned.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
You get better at the you got the outline, you
just you know how to do it better, irrespective of AI,
but you actually get better. It's actually being able to
chunk it down. So I think a year is amazing.
But I guarantee you'll write your next one lesson a
year for sure.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
The TVD on the second book, we at to get
through this the promotion for this first one first. But yeah,
to your point, like, once you do the thing that's new,
then it's not new anymore. And then like even you know,
I'm very proud of this book, and also I'm thinking of, oh, yeah,
I could have included the story. Maybe I'll include it
in a future edition, or oh, I'm like actually brainstorming
(07:39):
a new framework that's still connected to the book. But yeah,
it's just you're you're growing and constantly learning and iterating
along the way.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, for sure. And I like the way you've done
the book there. You've done the book and really what
I call a hybrid book really well with the QR
code and the links back, because that keeps it dynamic,
it allows you to be flexible. So again, if you're
a budding author out there and just have a look
at a wail of range had written this book. It's
a fantastic the way you've actually written that. You block
it really nicely. I love the summaries in it, and
(08:09):
so you've written it for people who are like I
just be the speed reader.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I need to go back to a chapter and have
a look. And I've done that a few times.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I've gone I think you write something on that, and
so I'll go back to your book and have a look.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So yeah, krudos for that. Hey, let's talk about leadership.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Leadership in twenty twenty five, you spend a lot of
time with a lot of very good leaders and probably
some bad ones as well. Have you years, tell me
in twenty twenty five what to say the three great
traits of leaders today?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
You see, the first.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
One is someone who wants to be in that position
and understands how important it is, especially when it comes
to developing your team. There are so many people who
will take that management position because that's maybe the most
natural way to move up at a company, but they
don't actually really care about so all the people part
(09:01):
of it. So wanting to be in that position I
think is really critical and really important. I would say
connecting with your teammates on a human level, So having
that empathy and again work is important, but also we're
people first and so understanding what we're going through individually,
understanding each other as people, I think that is a
(09:22):
really important skill as well. And then communication is especially
transparency and communication. With so many changes happening in a workplace,
it's very critical that we are as vulnerable as transparent
as possible because people can can you smell out if
if something's not quite right or you're hiding something, and
so that's a hard skill but an important one. And
(09:44):
I think that when you can approach leadership with that mentality,
it leads to more trusting and happier teams. Even if
it's not good news, they're happy that they got the
actual news from you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Right. I really love that. A couple of things you said.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
First off, you kind of brushed diver, but I think
it was actually a really important point, which was one,
you want to you want to leader, so you want
to be there. But the second thing is you want
to develop your team. That's so important, and so of
the leaders are like, right, I'm going here, I'm going
to lead this team. Do you ever your teachers of developing? No,
I'm going to develop myself, you know, And so I
(10:18):
love the fact that you said that. So I think
the first one was great and the second one. So
it's probably four, isn't it. You want to do it,
but you also want to develop your team. Which you
want to develop your team, you got to go, I
haven't developed them if I don't know them, so by inference,
got to know them. I think the comms ones a
really interesting one I found.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I don't know if you saw this.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
During the pandemic, I was working with a number of leaders,
and what surprised me was there some of them were
really high performance leaders were rated quite high, started to
get rated poorly from their team. And the reason why
is because they weren't communicating and they weren't being vulnerable.
And when I spoke to these leaders, who I had
great admiration for, I said, you know what, the team's
(10:59):
kind of not in a great place right now because
they're not hearing from you. And the leaders to a
t said I know, I'm just trying to get more
my ducks in order I won't have the right story
for them. I'm challenging my leadership. I'm challenging above. So
I so when I actually talk to them.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I've got a.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Great story, and I said, you know what, keep doing
that in the background, but you've got to keep talking
them right now, tell them how you feel. So I
think they're vulnerability and empathy of just keep the communication going,
like yo, I'm in this with you.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
We're here, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And I think of the best leaders said, give it
the information we have right now, and I have, this
is what we're going to do. So I think you've
got to actually lead. Some leaders forget to lead, and
maybe it may not be right.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Do you find that?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And some leaders just they almost get too much consensus
and don't actually lead for sure.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, it's about making sometimes the hard decisions and yeah,
maybe it's it's not the popular one, but you' and
then you have to explain and still get people by
in and moving forward. And that's that's that's the hard
part of leadership. That's suited for it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I know, but isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
But you know, I think it frustrates me is a
lot of people call it soft skills, right, and like
twice already you've called them hard skills, which I love
because it is actually a hard skill.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's a hard thing to do to communicate bad news.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's a hard thing to do to say, hey, you
know what, We're not in a great place right now
and have what I call you know that that optimism
for the future, like reality of where we are, not
blind optimism, but realistic optimism. Know where we are, but here,
I think is where the future and I think they are.
I agree with you, they're super hard skills. If they
were that easy, everyone would do them right. So they
don't gen Z's. God, I've got three sons, all gen
(12:44):
Z's right, and I speak to lots of people who
are peace with gen Z and you spend a lot
of time with them. One of the things I'm coming across,
and I don't know where, it's just in Australia, but
I suspect not a lot of gen Z's are feeling inadequate.
They feel like they haven't achieved a nust. They feel
like they should be doing more, that should have more money,
have more materialistic things to be further in their careers,
(13:05):
that should have produced so much more.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
If you come across this, I can totally see that,
especially with that generation, especially in this age of social media,
blessing and a curse, right, blessing. Oh, I can see
what's possible, and there's all these ideas and there's all
this information out there. And also it really makes you
susceptible to the comparison trap, right, like, Oh, I'm seeing
(13:29):
all these people doing these amazing things, and oh, this
person's making six figures in a month and this and that,
and you know, I think being aware that the comparison
trap exists is very important. And also remembering social media.
Social media, right, so there's so much that's happening behind
the scenes, and just because someone says something doesn't mean
it's actually through right that they've had you know, they're
(13:50):
making millions and millions of dollars in a year. And
so when we can understand that the comparison trap exists,
hopefully that allows us to focus more on ourselves because
we can only control what we can control. And I
think it's really important to remember that. But totally get that.
It is very easy and it happens to me too.
Right on LinkedIn. Everyone's getting promoted in this and that.
(14:12):
But you don't want to expand all that mind space
and energy focus on someone else, right, use that and
build something great for yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I think it's good advice and a lot of them
just speak them about that, and I'll say, you do
how do you not do comparison? And it's hard because
you really don't do this ocean media, which is not
an option for a lot of us, any of us today,
especially if you're a marketing business that got a startup
or you're doing something.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
You have to be there. And yeah, a couple of
my sons to sort of the detoxes for a while.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
One of them actually, you know, he's very high profile
and he has to be on it, but he also
detoxes for a while from it. But it's very hard,
isn't it to say stop looking over there, just focus
on yourself. I find that I think it comes with maturity.
Would I be right? Do you think that's the case?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
It is super hard.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I think it's a it's part of it might be maturity, right, Like,
you're just in the business for longer, You've been working
for longer, so you just you kind of understand. You
just see more things in life and you're like, Okay,
this person seems great on the surface, and then you
build relationships, right, and then you talk to this person
you're like, oh, they're actually like struggling a lot with X,
Y and Z on the back end, and oh they
might have had a great month, but oh maybe they
(15:22):
you know, we're bankrupt so for the first three years
of their business, like you just don't always have the context,
and so, you know, it reminds me you mentioned Rob.
I got to introduce so many different leaders for my book,
and one of them was Daniel Pank who's the Seventh
Time Times Are Amazing guy. Yeah, and he talked about
imposter syndrome in the book and he said, imposter syndrome
(15:44):
is comparing our insides to someone's outside and that's just
a game you cannot win. So when you remember it
and think about it in that context, like we just
literally have just no idea what's going on, it's on
apples to apples comparison. And so hopefully that's a helpful
mindset shift if anyone's sort of feeling that that.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Way, that's a that's a really good point. I love
love that comment.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
The other when I go from I think in your
book from Daniel was around the speaking side, as you know,
supernerw your audience, keep it simple, make it shorter.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I have that banner in.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
My office now because I one to kind of get
so excited.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
At my audience.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I want to give them everything, and so I and
when you get in the subject matter you have, you
want to go, oh, there's less less but another question.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But later on you talk about one on ones. I
thought it was really helpful.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Were're talking with leaders in their people, you talk about
getting to know them and having one on ones. You
had you had a bit of a model for doing
a one on one as well in the book. But
one of the things I thought was really good when
you asked, you suggested to the employee, if you will,
that they should take charge of the one on one.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Can you take me through that because I rarely see it?
And I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, I used to think that one on ones were
a time for me to update my manager, but that
can be done asynchronous, so you can send them a
Slack message, a team's message, an email and that's something
that they can read over right. The live time that
you have with your managers is really precious, and it
should be to talk about things that can only be
solved or discussed by talking live right and updates meeting
(17:16):
that that's again that can be a sync and so
it really empowers I think as a leader and a manager,
when you tell your employee you're in charge of the
one on one, it's a form of coaching them right
and helping them step into a more leadership position. But
it really empowers them to say, Okay, these are the
questions I have, or these are the roadblocks I have,
or these are the career topics that I want to
speak on, and it's their chance to own that conversation.
(17:40):
I think that's such an important piece where it's not
again just wasting time with updates and just yeah, things
that you can just read in an email, but it's
about building those relationships, getting the feedback, going having the
back and forth. That is just such a way to
stand out and also to practice leading a meeting, practice ownership,
(18:01):
acting more like the leaders are so many good things
come from that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And also I think in there just make sure I
got that right. One of the things you suggest also
is putting the agenda up.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So we're coming up for our one on one, here's
the things that I'd like to talk about and cover. Yeah,
I think that's really really good because one of the
other things that you and I both passionate about is
building a culture of feedback. And I find that people
who want to get a question often how do I
get a growth mindset culture? And I said, the fastest
way you can do it is actually get a culture
of feedback in your organization where people are asking for
(18:33):
the feedback proactively. Because what I've found is, and I'm
sure you found this as well, is that people generally
don't like receiving feedback the word feedback, and they also
don't like giving it.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's the thing side, It's hard on both sides, isn't that? Yet?
Speaker 1 (18:48):
If you have it one where someone's requesting, hey, can
you help me? I think you use the words in
here like can you help me? Can you give me
a bit of advice on this?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So? What would you suggest?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
You know yourself, and someone ask you that, even if
it's a frame, you go, oh yeah, hey you what
I do anything now? The sidia might get a little
bit or wouldn't do that or change that you didn't
standing incaginayes right? But if I actually said to you,
what would you how can improve that bit there? Or
what would you say? Yes, we feel more God, I
feel more comfortable. Anyway to go I'll tell you what
why do you could try?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So? Is that? Has that been your experience as well? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
I I it's so important building a culture of feedback.
And I get so frustrated with companies that one only
have the annual review so once a year and then
two In the annual reviews, they have the pre made
questions that are just so broad and generic, and no
one's like, what constructive feedback do you have for me?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Okay, Like what am I?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Like?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
What am I? What am I referencing?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Like? What do you want to talk about? Like?
Speaker 3 (19:48):
So it becomes really hard for me the feedback giver.
And then if you rob were asking me for feedback,
like it's whatever I say might not be helpful to you.
So to your point, there's ways to frame how you're
asking it to make it a little bit less scary destigmatized,
because it is hard to ask for it and to
hear it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Right, So asking for advice.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Giving a scaled system on a scale of one to five,
how confident did I seem in that presentation? If not
a five, what would have made it a five? What
can I try differently next time? So I'm not necessarily
saying that you did something wrong, but here's something to
experiment with next time. So there's all of these different
ways that you can reframe it, and really it boils
down to specificity. Right, we're not asking for broad strokes questions,
(20:31):
So it makes it more helpful for you the feedback asker,
and helps the feedback giver give you the right feedback,
and then it's something that you're going to want to
continue to do regularly. So in the book, I talk
about finding your feedback circle. These are people who are
invested in your success. They will be honest with you,
they want to see you win. And so anytime you
(20:51):
can have those people who can go to regularly ask
for feedback ahead of your next meeting, Oh I want
to work on this. Can you just keep an eye
out for me that it's going to be super helpful
to get some more of that continuous feedback and create
more of that culture.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, that's a really good point I think on the
culture of feedback.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
When you're wanting to get feedback or advice and help
using different words, it's really important to go who do
I want it from?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Like what am I actually trying to achieve here?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So I think that then they have that circle is
a really good way of putting it, because there are
different people for different things. You know, you might trust
someone over here, but you would but you want to
trust another person over here. I use a little acronym
I use called called true tru for feedback. I want
it to be timely, relevant and useful.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I think feedback it's given like for something and I
saw you do something last month. I'm thinking last month, right.
And also if it's not relevant to the conversation or
the client on with all those circumstances, it's hopeless and
so and the last one is the most important. So
I really really got from E don't know if you
read Arnold's watches Nagger's book, which is actually called useful,
(21:55):
and it's a wonderful book. I mean, and Arnold. I
love Arnold. I think it's fantastic that even Arnold, I
think he's one of the most optimistic people around Arnold
spends I think it's like two chapters on positivity, on
how he has to talk to himself to remain positive.
And I think, well, Arnold has to do that. We
all should be doing public three chapters. But he has
this thing like be useful, how can I be useful
(22:15):
to people?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
How can I? And how can I? So that's a
really interest that was actually father taught him that. It
was just like be useful, Arnold, right, But it was like, how.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Can I be useful to my team? I think that
if you get as a leader doing that, how can
I actually add value to them? How can I be
useful in this circumstance which might be a shoulder of
the cry on. So you're going from like you can
be a cheerleader, you can be a coach, you can
be their advisor, be a therapist.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
It's the whole thing. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
One other aspect that I like to ask people about,
especially someone who experiences you, is recommendations, suggestions source around
leading leaders versus leading followers, and the difference between the two.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Do you mean like leading managers or leading Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Correct, Yeah, so leading others? So you're a people later,
but you're leading other people leaders. And I find a
lot of leadership training factors it's just on leading followers.
But there's a big difference between leading followers versus leading
other latest of people. And I just wind if you've
had any thoughts on that insane experience where the shift
what can happen.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I know, the the things that I think is most
important to think about when you're leading leaders is just
the profile that you have within a company and realizing
that people are paying so much attention to every to
your actions, to your presence, to the little things that
(23:41):
you say so and off the cuff common in a meeting, Oh,
we might we might want to look into that.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
You know, people are can to take that really seriously
and start, you know, like study hours, like researching whatever.
You know that off and you don't even remember that
you said that, right, So I think there needs to
be sort of an extra layer of intentionality with the
way that you are showing up, whether it's in person
or virtually, because yeah, when you reach that point leaders
of leaders' that's amazing. And that also means that you're
(24:09):
probably quite high up in the organization. So there's just
a different awareness that you have to have in terms
of how others perceive you.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
That's a really great point. I think that And as
you got more and more senior, I've seen that. I mean,
people people pay.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Attention to leaders.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
They're watching leaders that they're looking at what you say
on LinkedIn, they're looking at you social media, they pay
super attention and the more scene you go.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And I think it's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I don't know if you remember saw this quote, but
it was a great one from Jamie Diamond, who's the
head of JP Morgan, and he made this great point
and he said that when he's making it change or
a transformation in.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
The business, even if it's a small one.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
If he changes his rhetoric, and he spilled between what
he says in New York and what he says in
the Hong Kong office, by the time he's falling back
to New York, chaos has broken out and he might
just change the words slightly because he got bored with it, right,
he said, But the reality is he's learned I've got
to sound like a broken record when I go on
(25:10):
talking about something that's really important for all the firm.
I've just got to stay straight to the words, because
if I shift, I've got to your point, I've got
people going googling and looking up and you know that
what do you say over there are slightly different over there?
And he said it's not intentional at all, And you say,
off the company, he might have done it the kind
of like it's a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You just can't do it.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And I was like listening to him, going, wow, he's
been in that top job for a long time. That's
a really interesting observation that you have to hold the
line because the impact is on the leaders below you,
because then the leaders below you, they have their people
coming to them going oh, well you said that, but
actually we just listened to this.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Town hall and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
So's yeah, that's a really good one, And yeah, I
think that's interesting. Another one is really you're really trying
to to your point which we started off this podcast with,
which is you're developing leaders, like you're developing your people.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
If your people are actually.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Leaders, you're they're developing them as leaders, right, not developing
the followers to become leaders, because you know, it's a
whole different it's a different ballgame. Well, I don't understand
why it's not called enough. I just I honestly don't
see a lot of focus on leading leaders that sometimes
I think sometimes I think people think it's an assumption
(26:24):
like that, like people in culture and now, and do
you think they're really smart?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
They're at this level now, they don't need more help.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yeah, but they need the most help, right, and the
most that. Yeah, that that kind of middle ish level.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And yeah, so the next level. And I think in
your book, so if you're a leader, are listening to
this and you're in that space. Honestly, I'm starting again
to go get Larrain's book because you cover off a
lot of things in there. And what I love about that, Lorange,
is you cover off things in there that maybe a
leader is in that position, but maybe just doesn't want
to go to ask for some more help. Right, there's
some great stuff in your book, but you can get
(26:56):
a kickstart or at least fine shee you actually want
to get more help to I love it. Now LinkedIn,
I'm gonna get to what are you up to now
on LinkedIn? How many followers do you have on LinkedIn?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Now? All right, I'm embarrassing.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
And yeah, over three hundred and twenty six thousand.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Now I said to people and they're like, I totally right, Yeah,
I've heard of that.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, she's got like three.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I got like she's got like three And they specically say, like,
like three thousand, I guess you got three out of
twenty see can They're like, I won't say what they
say the rank they can't swear it. But that's basically
like if what But hey, you've got and you got
that following. Tell me what do you think the three
secrets that following out? I following is not everything, but
(27:39):
but you've done that very sure, but tell me about
that following.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, so one, it took a long time, right, Like
I created my LinkedIn when I was in college, I
ended up working for LinkedIn as a founding editor, so
I was part of the team that brought content to
the platform, which of course was great, you know, getting
comfortable posting regularly. And then there was actually a little
period of time where I took a hiatus from LinkedIn.
(28:05):
After I left LinkedIn, I was like, oh, I don't
know like what I talk about outside this company. So
there was like a whole like personal brand, career, branding issue,
identity crisis that I had to come figure out. And
then it was when I joined Prezzy that I thought, Okay,
I want to start posting about me doing speaking, but
I don't want it to be all promotional, so I
need to figure out what else I like to talk about.
So I mean consistency and keeping up with it is
(28:28):
huge because LinkedIn doesn't give us those dopamine hits that
like an Instagram or TikTok does. It is harder to
build up an audience and to get that engagement, and
so it can be super easy to give up and
just say, oh, you know, this isn't working. So I
think sticking with it is really key. And you're gonna
have some posts that maybe go viral, and then you
also have some posts that don't, and that's okay, Like
(28:50):
you just keep going, right when you start posting enough,
you start caring less about the things that they do well.
I would say building connections is really powerful. So, like
you said, Rob, like follower count is great, but who
are you meeting on LinkedIn? So you and I met
their LinkedIn? Right, Like, you can be so many amazing, smart,
(29:11):
fun like cool people through LinkedIn. If you're willing to
create a strong LinkedIn presence and then willing to take
that chance and maybe send a DM and just let
the road that you'd be in chatting and through that,
then people start knowing who you are as a person.
You get more followers, and that's I think actually the
best part about LinkedIn not necessarily the content piece it's
(29:31):
the relationship piece. And then comments are really underutilized. So
if you're nervous about posting any of the listeners here,
I would start commenting first. It's a wonderful way to
develop your voice, get your insights out there. You will
still grow followers that way. Just remember with your comments,
aim for at least fifteen words, because great posts very interesting.
(29:55):
If I see a comment like that, I don't know
anything about you. But if you say great posts, and
I would add X, Y and Z or interesting posts
like have you thought about this? Oh, now I'm getting
to learn you, learn about you, and maybe I'll kick
through your profile and just see what you're about and
maybe give you a follow. So you know, obviously a
lot a lot more you can do, but those are
I think some of the highest like leverage points and
(30:17):
some of the biggest benefits to.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Being on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I come across people who you know, I write really
highly and I talk about this, and I go, I'm
just so scared of doing any so scared of doing anything,
And I say, but just my comment, surely you rate things,
And oh yeah, I said rate things. I really want
to make a comment. But they're still they're frightened to
make a comment what hen doy, what would you be
your suggestion? For people like that, A lot.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Of the times it's because, yeah, it's tied to our
professional identity. We want to sound smart. There's also sometimes
like the flip side, where people are thinking, oh, I
don't want to become like a LinkedIn influencer, a content creator.
Maybe it's cringey, but what I'm thinking it really boils
down to just from you know, talking to a lot
of different audiences, is people have something to say, but
they put so much pressure on themselves to think that, oh,
(31:03):
it has to be this unique thought, or it has
to be so smart and so clever. And what I
tell people is nothing is really original on LinkedIn. Hopefully
that alleviates some pressure. Like everyone's talking about similar things,
but it's different in the way that, oh, here's my
story and here's how I've positioned it, or here's how
here's the acronym I created around concepts that other people
(31:24):
have talked about. Like I say, like, there's so many
people on LinkedIn talking about presence, communication, leadership, management, all
topics that I speak on, but people follow me perhaps
because they connect to me as an introvert, or they
like my background or my story like having been in
tech and starting my own business now, or they like
that the way I present information is very tactical and
(31:45):
very clear. So just yeah, it's just I think we
would just put too much pressure on ourselves to make
it perfect. But it doesn't have to be. And there's
going to be many competitors out there and people talking
about similar things, but nothing is groundbreaking. We're all just
putting our own spin on it.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah. I think that's a really big part, isn't it
Just to take the heat of a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Like the gen Z question I asked you earlier, I
think it actually applies to all generations. We get a
bit kind of nervous about it or how might I
be perceived. I think we just sort of look, think
about the contribution you're making. If it's a great comment
and you've got some thought leadership, just put it out there.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I think that you kind of I flipped the other way,
maybe said I'm older, But just like, if I think
it's valuable, I want to why should I hold it
in because then no one gets to share it and
it might spark a bigger conversation but I do understand
how people struggle sometimes to get.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Over that hunt.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
But what I do find is when they do start commenting,
and they do, they start to comment more, and it's
like they go, Okay, that wasn't so bad, Like actually
someone responded, someone liked it, or entertained the question. So
I think, if you're out there and you're not posting
just yet, someone else is already posting. You know, the
Rain's doing it five times a week. You know, you
know I'm doing it four times a week. Jump on,
(32:53):
jump on, and you touched on TikTok. Is they're going
to go on Instagram? Are they also channels that you're
focused on? Or it mainly on LinkedIn's view?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
So LinkedIn's definitely my main channel. I am starting to
be a little bit more intentional with Instagram TikTok. I
haven't even touched yet. To be honest, I'm LinkedIn has
already just so much work, and you want to go
where your audience is, right. I'm sure there's people who
would enjoy, you know, seeing me on TikTok, but LinkedIn
is really where I've spent the most of the time.
(33:23):
I might work with a lot of enterprises, so LinkedIn
makes sense for me. Maybe a little bit of Instagram,
but now who's to say in the future and not.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Opposed to it. It's interesting, isn't it. Here's one thing
some of the gen Z's have said to me this, Yeah,
we can't think LinkedIn. We're on LinkedIn, but we think
most people are there are absolutely full of it, so
don't really really hold a lot of credence in it.
We go to Instagram first to see the real them,
then we might go back to LinkedIn. It's really interesting.
(33:49):
They like their safety checks Instagram.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, which I know You've got huge presence on Instagram
as well, and so I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
And that's this is coming from people who book us,
you know.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
So because like if a leader says to gen Z
you're in marketing or in the EA, or someone like
that says, hey miss Lorraine and k Lee, can you
go and find a little bit about her and see
how it could contact her, they will go to Instagram first,
right and see there, and you've been a great presence,
so and then they might go to LinkedIn. The actually
go definitely rates like as high in that that particular
(34:22):
user group, TikTok I'm not sure. I think TikTok's stuff
for it a little bit because of the US and
where they're going to shut them down keep it going.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
So I think a lot of people went to Instagram because.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Well that wasn't And that said, I've been doing work
with professionally with TikTok recently and it's been really amazing.
And I've been working some corporates who are doing work
with the corporate team at TikTok, and so their direction
and where they go from a corporate perspective with depending
on the industry you're in, is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
It's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
The other tip I saw with a company I was
doing work with, a fantastic group called called Weller. In
the hair they do hair color is the biggest thing,
so one of the because organizations the world in terms
of salons. But they all the stuff there have a
corporate link, a corporate Instagram, so.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It might be Lorraine Lorrain at Weller Instagram and.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So you post, they post predominantly on Instagram one because
the visual medium, so that works really well from hair
color and styling and fashions awesome. But they also have
their their Instagram as well, so I just so I
say that people, where are your customers? Like where are
your who buys from you?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Like?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Where are they placed? I think that's that's a really
good answer. But I'm starting to see a little bit
on the TikTok thing, so I'm fascinating. I reckon, I'm
going to see Lorain Kaylee on TikTok smashing it next year,
I think twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
From you, You're yeah, you're more in that world, so
to get some advice, you're.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Definitely going to be doing it. And let's talk about
speaking per second.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
You had a really good point and which I loved
as always, but there was a great point you made
about speaking. A lot of people said, look, reduce your
slide down, keep it content short, and you were like, no,
increase your slides. I'm like, wow, Wow, I came back
to that, check that and I read it again. I thought,
that's actually a really good point if I'm right. Couldase
explain a little bit more about that while you should
have more slides and I think you were saying it
(36:11):
more in the context of virtuals, but I'd like to
get you to be on that.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think it would be virtual definitely virtual,
but also in person. So the reason I said to
have more slides is because what a lot of people
do is they, especially in corporate, they just put like
everything like the texas so small, laugh, and it's way
too much information on one slide. And then they're not
even like fading things in. It's just everything's just on
(36:37):
there and while you're talking, everyone just reading while you're talking.
And so in the book, I talk about movement as
one of the best ways to recapture attention to boost
some dopamine in the brain, especially in a virtual environment,
because we're just expect so much movement, go go, go
on video. And so if you can make your presentation
such that, oh, I'm constantly fading my points in, I'm
(37:00):
doing one idea per slide, and then I go to
the next side and the next side. Anytime you do
a slide change, I just think back to a presentation
that you've watched. If you're kind of tuning out, okay,
they change the slide, Oh you're paying attention again, right right,
And so it's just constantly that triggered to keep people engaged.
And so it's not more slides and a ton of
content on each side, breaking up the content so that
(37:22):
you're moving through it much faster.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, that's that's such great advice.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I heard my dayd HP where my team were putting
together a presentation. They had sixty minutes and they were like,
and I said, hey, going guys, not.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, man, we're struggling. We're struggling. I go, why is that?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And I said, well, we got sixty minutes. I said, well,
how many how many slides and what your content look like?
And I said, uh, we're up to fifty, but we
just need not a ten and they went really detailed
slide like that, we need to hand up. You're going
for one a minute here, and they gang, yeah, because
if we just keep pumping up through they went, we
(37:57):
went to speak much people just readly don't go.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I think I'm gonna have a chat about this.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
So I okay from that world, but I totally get yours,
which is like that. And I think the combination of
video think about people were so used to video and
video scening, video keeping the movement up, having the idea
per s live, keeping them big. I think that's the
other big one, and even more so on virtual to
your point, So yeah, I really encourage that the people
you have a reader that if you're presenting this and
(38:22):
fantastic stuff, Lorraine's got into the book, which comes from
a true speaking professional, I might add, so this is
stuff is tried and true, so please have a look
at it. I certainly picked up some great ones in
that made and it made so much sense. I had
a question for you, which was this. I only thought
of it this morning, so I'm stragging in without notice.
Was if you were starting this, and it's a little
(38:44):
bit about AI, if you were starting your business in
August twenty twenty five, would you do anything differently than
when you did start it.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yes, I would have brought on virtual assistance a bit
sooner to help with things like design and you know,
just kind of like the nitty gritty that you know,
I should be spending time like talking to clients and
speaking and all that. So, but it's hard because you're like, oh,
(39:15):
I'm not making any money yet. So but there's lots
of really great talent out there, like in the Philippines
for example. You know, it's not too expensive, so that
that would have been really helpful. You mentioned AI creating. Yeah,
taking the time to sort of lay the foundation, I
think with the right tools or systems or processes, which
(39:38):
I'm still you know, it's still always an iterative, iterative thing.
And like I just made my first full time hire
a few weeks ago, so like we're kind of doing
another revamp. So these things will change over time as
the company evolves.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Guess even now, like I do want to get a
little bit more knowledgeable in AI and figure out, yeah,
how can I make things more efficient? So that's constantly
a learning and process.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
It's a good point you make.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
I remember Mark Andrews when he after he sold they
stole Netscape, so he found a Netscape with Jim Clark
after I sold an Escape and he was doing his
next startup. Similar question was, so, Mark, what are you doing?
What are you doing this time round? And he said,
I've got my first two hires. What I learned my
first two highs at this time around one a lawyer
because I'm doing some of my stuff around Payton's and
(40:27):
IP and my second high is a head of HR.
And he said, because that really I didn't to your point.
Even when he started Netscape, he said, we try to
do too much our soulves we need to bring people on.
Then when we started to bring people along, we had
to bring a lot on very quickly, and I lost
all my bandwidth. And so his first two highs had
a lawyer, attorney and then head of HR.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
So, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Anything on AI you're favoring any particular aim from check
GBT to Claude the Gemini is anything that's kind of
working for.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I've been I do use a lot of chat GBT,
but and you know this is probably nothing new to
you or your audience. You need to still have the
skill set right. So it's helping me rewrite emails, it's
helping me write drafts of things. But I'll know if
something doesn't quite sound right, or if it's not the
tone that I want, or just something just sounds forced
(41:21):
or you know, just not not smooth.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
No flow.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
So you know, you grain of salt when you use
tools like that. That's the main one. Actually I use.
I do experiment every now and then with some of
the other ones, but chat Gibt has done a really
great job just knowing coo I am at this point.
So it's kind of hard once you're in one too.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
I think teach another one right, and that's where I
was getting to. Yeah, yeah, it's hard. I did hear it.
This is in the ZEITGT.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Something actually this morning before I jumped on the call
with you, is that overnight someone had posted on about
check GBT five that gave a response which no one
had seen before that even called a musk's eye, which
it said, I don't know, I don't think. I don't
I don't know, and I don't think I can help
you with this answer or this question. And that's the
(42:10):
first time. That's a really interesting breakthrough. Was it was
on that what I said. I think it might have
been on Instagram or LinkedIn. I saw it post up.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
It was over night.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yet's first time that anyone saying a chat GBT actually
come back because it's not hallucinating. I'm not giving this stuff.
It's right, it's actually come back going. I don't think
it's possible for me to answer this one. I don't
think I've got I don't think what the do.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
You remember what the topic was? I think obscure. I
don't really know.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
It was actually someone someone using it and posted it,
but it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
It wasn't. I didn't think it.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Was like two off the reservation, but it was an
interesting kind of breakthrough that that's it's saying that. So
there we go the rain where our time is almost up,
which has been excited when I could go on for
another two and a half years, not ours? Where can
people find out more about you? What's the what's the
best place to, what's to go to for Lorraine Kaylee that's.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Not on LinkedIn. Would love for all your listeners to
connect with me. Let them know you you heard me
on this podcast. That would be great. Would love to
say hi, my book, as you mentioned, thank you again
for reading and grabbing a copy. The book is sold
anywhere where books are sold. And I have a free
newsletter weekly newsletter Career Bites, bite sized tips to supercharge
(43:21):
your career in three minutes or less, So you can
find that at Lorraine Kayley dot com slash subscribe and
then any companies who are interested in working with me
you can reach.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Out on my website. Yeah beautiful, thanks to Ryan. It's
been very really great.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
And I said linkedin' is the first one Loren's all
says she mentioned before. She's on Instagram. Do you want
to you want to check her out? There, get hold
of the book. Definitely get hold of the book, have
a good read through that one. I'm going to do
a little video on the book. I've been wanting to
do if I want to finish the book first, I
was going to go web free videos or the finacebook first.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
I'm gonna do a little snippet for you. But thanks
so much for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I hope you enjoyed this episode It's All Possible podcast.
You can contact me at Rob at Robhartner dot com
or my website robhart Do dot com, or on LinkedIn.
Remember to check out the previous seasons and episodes of
the podcast and the show notes for more details on
this episode's guest.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
For more inspiration, remember to check out the.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
All Possibility players on Spotify, which contains a collection upbeat,
positive music I use for inspiration with my live performances.
Until next time, Live with Passion had a perspective of
possibility
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartner, and as your chief possibility officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. And I am beyond excited this morning,
beyond decided because I have with me. You've probably seen
her all over the place. I'll have a social media
(00:47):
especially over our LinkedIn. But this is the amazing Today.
Our special guest is the amazing Lorraine Haylee. Welcome, Lorraine,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
For having me.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm so excited we finally meet.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
This happen. Yeah, we finally got it to have. Now
where are you? Where are you coming from today?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I'm in San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
What about Yes, I'm actually down on the on the
Mornington Peninsula in Melbourne just a little bit.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Okay, you said morning and I said, oh, Okay, so
it's your Saturday, so thank you for the.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It's the Morning in the Mornington Peninsula. It's very good,
very smart. Now won Der you're so good. Hey, look,
I wanted to talk about the book. First of all,
I'm forgettable Presence. I love it. It's it's a great book.
I've written a few, so I know how hard this.
We're going to talk about that a bit later on.
But I love the book. It's so contemporary, it's so
for this moment. It's it doesn't matter where you are
(01:36):
in your career. You can be, you know, kind of
at a super high t directory, you could be starting out.
There is stuff in this book I cannot I just
don't think I can tell you how many people I've
recommended it too, just said.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Okay, what are you reading? What are you reading? What book?
And I go, You've got to read this, You've got
to buy this.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
And I've had people literally go right, I'm on Amazon
now I'm buying Lorraine book. So who does to you?
It's it's it's fantastic. Why did you just saut on
a book in this era of podcasts and streaming wait
for a book?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And how long did it take you to put it
all together.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
It didn't take me a crazy long amount of time.
So it took me, let's say, from when I signed
the contract with Wiley to the actual publication. So I
signed in March of last year and the book came
out late April, so just a little over a year
from start to finish, which is crazy. And writing a
book was not something that I had initially planned for myself.
(02:32):
It was not on my Bengo card. And what ended
up happening was while I was at the last company,
my last corporate company, Prezy, I had come out with
my first LinkedIn learning course and I published it.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I was super.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Excited and an old colleague from an earlier company reached
out to congratulate me, and he sort of made this
joke like, oh, when's the book coming out? And then
I thought, oh, like maybe maybe that makes sense for me,
Like that does sound pretty fun, and I think there's
something really special about having and also like what leads
to the pressure writing a book, Having all your ideas
and best practices and tips and knowledge in this really
(03:04):
physical thing organized right so people can just flip through
and find what they need. Because you know, you're writing
newsletters LinkedIn posts, et cetera. But you have to kind
of cobble all the information together, so the book. It
just felt right when he said that. And then a
few weeks later, I met another colleague. She was an
executive at Google at the time, and then she brought
it up too. She said, have you ever thought about
writing a book? And I thought, okay, you're the second
(03:26):
person who mentioned this, like, I need to do this
at some point, so I classic, yeah, exactly. I ended
up getting laid Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Good, kick gunk gun. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
So I ended up getting laid off a few months later,
and that was when I decided to start my own business.
I started trying to self publish the book and writing
and it's very generous calling it an outline, but just
some ideas, and I just thought, this is too hard.
I want to wait for a traditional publisher and just
get some guidance along the way. And then a year
(03:57):
into my business, that's when Wiley first reached down on
lind and then a few other publishers reached out, and
I took it as a sign from the universe, even
if I felt a little bit nervous, even if I
felt maybe not quite ready, that I should take advantage,
and this was the time to write.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It all on Wiley reaching out. I was going to
ask you about that. How did you get in contact
with Wiley? So it's for your LinkedIn posts and through it?
Was there a particular post that they reached out that
was the trigger?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
You never asked? I don't think so. I think generally
they like people who have a strong LinkedIn presence and
people who are posting regularly, right, because these are people
who they can tell like to get their thoughts and
get their voice out there.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So yeah, that's a really good thing. Point.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I'm going to ask a quick question slightly off topic.
When you say posting regularly, how often I are you
posting on LinkedIn?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Good question? So I actually just cut it down. I
was posting about six times a week and now it's
four to five. Uh, that's a lot for someone, especially
if they're starting off. I would not recommend four to
five to start or four to six, because it is
a lot and it can lead to burnout. So I
for anyone who's just shutting out, I would set the
bar much much lower than that and just get familiar
(05:04):
with they get used to it, and then over time
you can grow to that number.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You know, I think I'm tory posting about four times
a week. I must say, I do try and post
something that I find relevant, and I just they don't
post for posting sake. If I come across something an idea,
I'll post. So it's probably yeah, probably four. You'd be
about four times a week. Backs on the book.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
You know the guy you know, John.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Maxwell, the leadership leadership guru. He's written thirty two books.
He's one of Amazon's biggest ever sellers.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I've heard the name.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, you would have came across it. John's John's writing.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I've been a student of John's and a part of
the John Maxwell team and study under John in the
US a number of times.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I really love this stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
But John had a great way of talking, and he
talked about writing books and he's written so many. And
one of the thing questions he was asked once he
was actually doing it. He was running I'm doing a
speaking gig, but he's a speaking gig, and lady cat
up to him and said, John, I just wanted to
know the fantastic I really enjoyed it. I've actually got
your very first book you wrote, and John said to her,
(06:04):
I'm so sorry. I'm so much better now. I'm so
sorry for that book. And John said it literally had
I think it was something like maybe it was like
fifteen hundred words and had fifteen chapters. Right, so when
you talk about an outline, John said, I wasn't writing
(06:24):
very much.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I was the next chapter and he said it. So
I had to apologize because thought, oh, here, please signon and.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Go I'm so embarrassed, I think, And he said I've
come such a long way. And so the point he
was trying to make is you do the best you
can at the time, and he said that book was
the best that was in me. I couldn't have written
it any better. I didn't try to write a bad book.
But I've come on this journey. I now look back
at it and they go, oh my god, I can't
believe you're on board, Like how do I even sell that?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
But the point is, we only do what we can do,
and we only and I'm sure you're next time, or
third one or everyone you're going to do, you'll look
back and go oh yeah, and you'll write it fast.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I think that's the other thing I've learned.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
You get better at the you got the outline, you
just you know how to do it better, irrespective of AI,
but you actually get better. It's actually being able to
chunk it down. So I think a year is amazing.
But I guarantee you'll write your next one lesson a
year for sure.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
The TVD on the second book, we at to get
through this the promotion for this first one first. But yeah,
to your point, like, once you do the thing that's new,
then it's not new anymore. And then like even you know,
I'm very proud of this book, and also I'm thinking of, oh, yeah,
I could have included the story. Maybe I'll include it
in a future edition, or oh, I'm like actually brainstorming
(07:39):
a new framework that's still connected to the book. But yeah,
it's just you're you're growing and constantly learning and iterating
along the way.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, for sure. And I like the way you've done
the book there. You've done the book and really what
I call a hybrid book really well with the QR
code and the links back, because that keeps it dynamic,
it allows you to be flexible. So again, if you're
a budding author out there and just have a look
at a wail of range had written this book. It's
a fantastic the way you've actually written that. You block
it really nicely. I love the summaries in it, and
(08:09):
so you've written it for people who are like I
just be the speed reader.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I need to go back to a chapter and have
a look. And I've done that a few times.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I've gone I think you write something on that, and
so I'll go back to your book and have a look.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So yeah, krudos for that. Hey, let's talk about leadership.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Leadership in twenty twenty five, you spend a lot of
time with a lot of very good leaders and probably
some bad ones as well. Have you years, tell me
in twenty twenty five what to say the three great
traits of leaders today?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
You see, the first.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
One is someone who wants to be in that position
and understands how important it is, especially when it comes
to developing your team. There are so many people who
will take that management position because that's maybe the most
natural way to move up at a company, but they
don't actually really care about so all the people part
(09:01):
of it. So wanting to be in that position I
think is really critical and really important. I would say
connecting with your teammates on a human level, So having
that empathy and again work is important, but also we're
people first and so understanding what we're going through individually,
understanding each other as people, I think that is a
(09:22):
really important skill as well. And then communication is especially
transparency and communication. With so many changes happening in a workplace,
it's very critical that we are as vulnerable as transparent
as possible because people can can you smell out if
if something's not quite right or you're hiding something, and
so that's a hard skill but an important one. And
(09:44):
I think that when you can approach leadership with that mentality,
it leads to more trusting and happier teams. Even if
it's not good news, they're happy that they got the
actual news from you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Right. I really love that. A couple of things you said.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
First off, you kind of brushed diver, but I think
it was actually a really important point, which was one,
you want to you want to leader, so you want
to be there. But the second thing is you want
to develop your team. That's so important, and so of
the leaders are like, right, I'm going here, I'm going
to lead this team. Do you ever your teachers of developing? No,
I'm going to develop myself, you know, And so I
(10:18):
love the fact that you said that. So I think
the first one was great and the second one. So
it's probably four, isn't it. You want to do it,
but you also want to develop your team. Which you
want to develop your team, you got to go, I
haven't developed them if I don't know them, so by inference,
got to know them. I think the comms ones a
really interesting one I found.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I don't know if you saw this.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
During the pandemic, I was working with a number of leaders,
and what surprised me was there some of them were
really high performance leaders were rated quite high, started to
get rated poorly from their team. And the reason why
is because they weren't communicating and they weren't being vulnerable.
And when I spoke to these leaders, who I had
great admiration for, I said, you know what, the team's
(10:59):
kind of not in a great place right now because
they're not hearing from you. And the leaders to a
t said I know, I'm just trying to get more
my ducks in order I won't have the right story
for them. I'm challenging my leadership. I'm challenging above. So
I so when I actually talk to them.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I've got a.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Great story, and I said, you know what, keep doing
that in the background, but you've got to keep talking
them right now, tell them how you feel. So I
think they're vulnerability and empathy of just keep the communication going,
like yo, I'm in this with you.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
We're here, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And I think of the best leaders said, give it
the information we have right now, and I have, this
is what we're going to do. So I think you've
got to actually lead. Some leaders forget to lead, and
maybe it may not be right.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Do you find that?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And some leaders just they almost get too much consensus
and don't actually lead for sure.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, it's about making sometimes the hard decisions and yeah,
maybe it's it's not the popular one, but you' and
then you have to explain and still get people by
in and moving forward. And that's that's that's the hard
part of leadership. That's suited for it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I know, but isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
But you know, I think it frustrates me is a
lot of people call it soft skills, right, and like
twice already you've called them hard skills, which I love
because it is actually a hard skill.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's a hard thing to do to communicate bad news.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's a hard thing to do to say, hey, you
know what, We're not in a great place right now
and have what I call you know that that optimism
for the future, like reality of where we are, not
blind optimism, but realistic optimism. Know where we are, but here,
I think is where the future and I think they are.
I agree with you, they're super hard skills. If they
were that easy, everyone would do them right. So they
don't gen Z's. God, I've got three sons, all gen
(12:44):
Z's right, and I speak to lots of people who
are peace with gen Z and you spend a lot
of time with them. One of the things I'm coming across,
and I don't know where, it's just in Australia, but
I suspect not a lot of gen Z's are feeling inadequate.
They feel like they haven't achieved a nust. They feel
like they should be doing more, that should have more money,
have more materialistic things to be further in their careers,
(13:05):
that should have produced so much more.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
If you come across this, I can totally see that,
especially with that generation, especially in this age of social media,
blessing and a curse, right, blessing. Oh, I can see
what's possible, and there's all these ideas and there's all
this information out there. And also it really makes you
susceptible to the comparison trap, right, like, Oh, I'm seeing
(13:29):
all these people doing these amazing things, and oh, this
person's making six figures in a month and this and that,
and you know, I think being aware that the comparison
trap exists is very important. And also remembering social media.
Social media, right, so there's so much that's happening behind
the scenes, and just because someone says something doesn't mean
it's actually through right that they've had you know, they're
(13:50):
making millions and millions of dollars in a year. And
so when we can understand that the comparison trap exists,
hopefully that allows us to focus more on ourselves because
we can only control what we can control. And I
think it's really important to remember that. But totally get that.
It is very easy and it happens to me too.
Right on LinkedIn. Everyone's getting promoted in this and that.
(14:12):
But you don't want to expand all that mind space
and energy focus on someone else, right, use that and
build something great for yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I think it's good advice and a lot of them
just speak them about that, and I'll say, you do
how do you not do comparison? And it's hard because
you really don't do this ocean media, which is not
an option for a lot of us, any of us today,
especially if you're a marketing business that got a startup
or you're doing something.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
You have to be there. And yeah, a couple of
my sons to sort of the detoxes for a while.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
One of them actually, you know, he's very high profile
and he has to be on it, but he also
detoxes for a while from it. But it's very hard,
isn't it to say stop looking over there, just focus
on yourself. I find that I think it comes with maturity.
Would I be right? Do you think that's the case?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
It is super hard.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I think it's a it's part of it might be maturity, right, Like,
you're just in the business for longer, You've been working
for longer, so you just you kind of understand. You
just see more things in life and you're like, Okay,
this person seems great on the surface, and then you
build relationships, right, and then you talk to this person
you're like, oh, they're actually like struggling a lot with X,
Y and Z on the back end, and oh they
might have had a great month, but oh maybe they
(15:22):
you know, we're bankrupt so for the first three years
of their business, like you just don't always have the context,
and so, you know, it reminds me you mentioned Rob.
I got to introduce so many different leaders for my book,
and one of them was Daniel Pank who's the Seventh
Time Times Are Amazing guy. Yeah, and he talked about
imposter syndrome in the book and he said, imposter syndrome
(15:44):
is comparing our insides to someone's outside and that's just
a game you cannot win. So when you remember it
and think about it in that context, like we just
literally have just no idea what's going on, it's on
apples to apples comparison. And so hopefully that's a helpful
mindset shift if anyone's sort of feeling that that.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Way, that's a that's a really good point. I love
love that comment.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
The other when I go from I think in your
book from Daniel was around the speaking side, as you know,
supernerw your audience, keep it simple, make it shorter.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I have that banner in.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
My office now because I one to kind of get
so excited.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
At my audience.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I want to give them everything, and so I and
when you get in the subject matter you have, you
want to go, oh, there's less less but another question.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But later on you talk about one on ones. I
thought it was really helpful.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Were're talking with leaders in their people, you talk about
getting to know them and having one on ones. You
had you had a bit of a model for doing
a one on one as well in the book. But
one of the things I thought was really good when
you asked, you suggested to the employee, if you will,
that they should take charge of the one on one.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Can you take me through that because I rarely see it?
And I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, I used to think that one on ones were
a time for me to update my manager, but that
can be done asynchronous, so you can send them a
Slack message, a team's message, an email and that's something
that they can read over right. The live time that
you have with your managers is really precious, and it
should be to talk about things that can only be
solved or discussed by talking live right and updates meeting
(17:16):
that that's again that can be a sync and so
it really empowers I think as a leader and a manager,
when you tell your employee you're in charge of the
one on one, it's a form of coaching them right
and helping them step into a more leadership position. But
it really empowers them to say, Okay, these are the
questions I have, or these are the roadblocks I have,
or these are the career topics that I want to
speak on, and it's their chance to own that conversation.
(17:40):
I think that's such an important piece where it's not
again just wasting time with updates and just yeah, things
that you can just read in an email, but it's
about building those relationships, getting the feedback, going having the
back and forth. That is just such a way to
stand out and also to practice leading a meeting, practice ownership,
(18:01):
acting more like the leaders are so many good things
come from that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And also I think in there just make sure I
got that right. One of the things you suggest also
is putting the agenda up.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So we're coming up for our one on one, here's
the things that I'd like to talk about and cover. Yeah,
I think that's really really good because one of the
other things that you and I both passionate about is
building a culture of feedback. And I find that people
who want to get a question often how do I
get a growth mindset culture? And I said, the fastest
way you can do it is actually get a culture
of feedback in your organization where people are asking for
(18:33):
the feedback proactively. Because what I've found is, and I'm
sure you found this as well, is that people generally
don't like receiving feedback the word feedback, and they also
don't like giving it.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's the thing side, It's hard on both sides, isn't that? Yet?
Speaker 1 (18:48):
If you have it one where someone's requesting, hey, can
you help me? I think you use the words in
here like can you help me? Can you give me
a bit of advice on this?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So? What would you suggest?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
You know yourself, and someone ask you that, even if
it's a frame, you go, oh yeah, hey you what
I do anything now? The sidia might get a little
bit or wouldn't do that or change that you didn't
standing incaginayes right? But if I actually said to you,
what would you how can improve that bit there? Or
what would you say? Yes, we feel more God, I
feel more comfortable. Anyway to go I'll tell you what
why do you could try?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So? Is that? Has that been your experience as well? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
I I it's so important building a culture of feedback.
And I get so frustrated with companies that one only
have the annual review so once a year and then
two In the annual reviews, they have the pre made
questions that are just so broad and generic, and no
one's like, what constructive feedback do you have for me?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Okay, Like what am I?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Like?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
What am I? What am I referencing?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Like? What do you want to talk about? Like?
Speaker 3 (19:48):
So it becomes really hard for me the feedback giver.
And then if you rob were asking me for feedback,
like it's whatever I say might not be helpful to you.
So to your point, there's ways to frame how you're
asking it to make it a little bit less scary destigmatized,
because it is hard to ask for it and to
hear it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Right, So asking for advice.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Giving a scaled system on a scale of one to five,
how confident did I seem in that presentation? If not
a five, what would have made it a five? What
can I try differently next time? So I'm not necessarily
saying that you did something wrong, but here's something to
experiment with next time. So there's all of these different
ways that you can reframe it, and really it boils
down to specificity. Right, we're not asking for broad strokes questions,
(20:31):
So it makes it more helpful for you the feedback asker,
and helps the feedback giver give you the right feedback,
and then it's something that you're going to want to
continue to do regularly. So in the book, I talk
about finding your feedback circle. These are people who are
invested in your success. They will be honest with you,
they want to see you win. And so anytime you
(20:51):
can have those people who can go to regularly ask
for feedback ahead of your next meeting, Oh I want
to work on this. Can you just keep an eye
out for me that it's going to be super helpful
to get some more of that continuous feedback and create
more of that culture.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, that's a really good point I think on the
culture of feedback.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
When you're wanting to get feedback or advice and help
using different words, it's really important to go who do
I want it from?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Like what am I actually trying to achieve here?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So I think that then they have that circle is
a really good way of putting it, because there are
different people for different things. You know, you might trust
someone over here, but you would but you want to
trust another person over here. I use a little acronym
I use called called true tru for feedback. I want
it to be timely, relevant and useful.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I think feedback it's given like for something and I
saw you do something last month. I'm thinking last month, right.
And also if it's not relevant to the conversation or
the client on with all those circumstances, it's hopeless and
so and the last one is the most important. So
I really really got from E don't know if you
read Arnold's watches Nagger's book, which is actually called useful,
(21:55):
and it's a wonderful book. I mean, and Arnold. I
love Arnold. I think it's fantastic that even Arnold, I
think he's one of the most optimistic people around Arnold
spends I think it's like two chapters on positivity, on
how he has to talk to himself to remain positive.
And I think, well, Arnold has to do that. We
all should be doing public three chapters. But he has
this thing like be useful, how can I be useful
(22:15):
to people?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
How can I? And how can I? So that's a
really interest that was actually father taught him that. It
was just like be useful, Arnold, right, But it was like, how.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Can I be useful to my team? I think that
if you get as a leader doing that, how can
I actually add value to them? How can I be
useful in this circumstance which might be a shoulder of
the cry on. So you're going from like you can
be a cheerleader, you can be a coach, you can
be their advisor, be a therapist.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
It's the whole thing. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
One other aspect that I like to ask people about,
especially someone who experiences you, is recommendations, suggestions source around
leading leaders versus leading followers, and the difference between the two.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Do you mean like leading managers or leading Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Correct, Yeah, so leading others? So you're a people later,
but you're leading other people leaders. And I find a
lot of leadership training factors it's just on leading followers.
But there's a big difference between leading followers versus leading
other latest of people. And I just wind if you've
had any thoughts on that insane experience where the shift
what can happen.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I know, the the things that I think is most
important to think about when you're leading leaders is just
the profile that you have within a company and realizing
that people are paying so much attention to every to
your actions, to your presence, to the little things that
(23:41):
you say so and off the cuff common in a meeting, Oh,
we might we might want to look into that.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
You know, people are can to take that really seriously
and start, you know, like study hours, like researching whatever.
You know that off and you don't even remember that
you said that, right, So I think there needs to
be sort of an extra layer of intentionality with the
way that you are showing up, whether it's in person
or virtually, because yeah, when you reach that point leaders
of leaders' that's amazing. And that also means that you're
(24:09):
probably quite high up in the organization. So there's just
a different awareness that you have to have in terms
of how others perceive you.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
That's a really great point. I think that And as
you got more and more senior, I've seen that. I mean,
people people pay.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Attention to leaders.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
They're watching leaders that they're looking at what you say
on LinkedIn, they're looking at you social media, they pay
super attention and the more scene you go.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And I think it's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I don't know if you remember saw this quote, but
it was a great one from Jamie Diamond, who's the
head of JP Morgan, and he made this great point
and he said that when he's making it change or
a transformation in.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
The business, even if it's a small one.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
If he changes his rhetoric, and he spilled between what
he says in New York and what he says in
the Hong Kong office, by the time he's falling back
to New York, chaos has broken out and he might
just change the words slightly because he got bored with it, right,
he said, But the reality is he's learned I've got
to sound like a broken record when I go on
(25:10):
talking about something that's really important for all the firm.
I've just got to stay straight to the words, because
if I shift, I've got to your point, I've got
people going googling and looking up and you know that
what do you say over there are slightly different over there?
And he said it's not intentional at all, And you say,
off the company, he might have done it the kind
of like it's a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You just can't do it.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And I was like listening to him, going, wow, he's
been in that top job for a long time. That's
a really interesting observation that you have to hold the
line because the impact is on the leaders below you,
because then the leaders below you, they have their people
coming to them going oh, well you said that, but
actually we just listened to this.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Town hall and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
So's yeah, that's a really good one, And yeah, I
think that's interesting. Another one is really you're really trying
to to your point which we started off this podcast with,
which is you're developing leaders, like you're developing your people.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
If your people are actually.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Leaders, you're they're developing them as leaders, right, not developing
the followers to become leaders, because you know, it's a
whole different it's a different ballgame. Well, I don't understand
why it's not called enough. I just I honestly don't
see a lot of focus on leading leaders that sometimes
I think sometimes I think people think it's an assumption
(26:24):
like that, like people in culture and now, and do
you think they're really smart?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
They're at this level now, they don't need more help.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yeah, but they need the most help, right, and the
most that. Yeah, that that kind of middle ish level.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And yeah, so the next level. And I think in
your book, so if you're a leader, are listening to
this and you're in that space. Honestly, I'm starting again
to go get Larrain's book because you cover off a
lot of things in there. And what I love about that, Lorange,
is you cover off things in there that maybe a
leader is in that position, but maybe just doesn't want
to go to ask for some more help. Right, there's
some great stuff in your book, but you can get
(26:56):
a kickstart or at least fine shee you actually want
to get more help to I love it. Now LinkedIn,
I'm gonna get to what are you up to now
on LinkedIn? How many followers do you have on LinkedIn?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Now? All right, I'm embarrassing.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
And yeah, over three hundred and twenty six thousand.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Now I said to people and they're like, I totally right, Yeah,
I've heard of that.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, she's got like three.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I got like she's got like three And they specically say, like,
like three thousand, I guess you got three out of
twenty see can They're like, I won't say what they
say the rank they can't swear it. But that's basically
like if what But hey, you've got and you got
that following. Tell me what do you think the three
secrets that following out? I following is not everything, but
(27:39):
but you've done that very sure, but tell me about
that following.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, so one, it took a long time, right, Like
I created my LinkedIn when I was in college, I
ended up working for LinkedIn as a founding editor, so
I was part of the team that brought content to
the platform, which of course was great, you know, getting
comfortable posting regularly. And then there was actually a little
period of time where I took a hiatus from LinkedIn.
(28:05):
After I left LinkedIn, I was like, oh, I don't
know like what I talk about outside this company. So
there was like a whole like personal brand, career, branding issue,
identity crisis that I had to come figure out. And
then it was when I joined Prezzy that I thought, Okay,
I want to start posting about me doing speaking, but
I don't want it to be all promotional, so I
need to figure out what else I like to talk about.
So I mean consistency and keeping up with it is
(28:28):
huge because LinkedIn doesn't give us those dopamine hits that
like an Instagram or TikTok does. It is harder to
build up an audience and to get that engagement, and
so it can be super easy to give up and
just say, oh, you know, this isn't working. So I
think sticking with it is really key. And you're gonna
have some posts that maybe go viral, and then you
also have some posts that don't, and that's okay, Like
(28:50):
you just keep going, right when you start posting enough,
you start caring less about the things that they do well.
I would say building connections is really powerful. So, like
you said, Rob, like follower count is great, but who
are you meeting on LinkedIn? So you and I met
their LinkedIn? Right, Like, you can be so many amazing, smart,
(29:11):
fun like cool people through LinkedIn. If you're willing to
create a strong LinkedIn presence and then willing to take
that chance and maybe send a DM and just let
the road that you'd be in chatting and through that,
then people start knowing who you are as a person.
You get more followers, and that's I think actually the
best part about LinkedIn not necessarily the content piece it's
(29:31):
the relationship piece. And then comments are really underutilized. So
if you're nervous about posting any of the listeners here,
I would start commenting first. It's a wonderful way to
develop your voice, get your insights out there. You will
still grow followers that way. Just remember with your comments,
aim for at least fifteen words, because great posts very interesting.
(29:55):
If I see a comment like that, I don't know
anything about you. But if you say great posts, and
I would add X, Y and Z or interesting posts
like have you thought about this? Oh, now I'm getting
to learn you, learn about you, and maybe I'll kick
through your profile and just see what you're about and
maybe give you a follow. So you know, obviously a
lot a lot more you can do, but those are
I think some of the highest like leverage points and
(30:17):
some of the biggest benefits to.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Being on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I come across people who you know, I write really
highly and I talk about this, and I go, I'm
just so scared of doing any so scared of doing anything,
And I say, but just my comment, surely you rate things,
And oh yeah, I said rate things. I really want
to make a comment. But they're still they're frightened to
make a comment what hen doy, what would you be
your suggestion? For people like that, A lot.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Of the times it's because, yeah, it's tied to our
professional identity. We want to sound smart. There's also sometimes
like the flip side, where people are thinking, oh, I
don't want to become like a LinkedIn influencer, a content creator.
Maybe it's cringey, but what I'm thinking it really boils
down to just from you know, talking to a lot
of different audiences, is people have something to say, but
they put so much pressure on themselves to think that, oh,
(31:03):
it has to be this unique thought, or it has
to be so smart and so clever. And what I
tell people is nothing is really original on LinkedIn. Hopefully
that alleviates some pressure. Like everyone's talking about similar things,
but it's different in the way that, oh, here's my
story and here's how I've positioned it, or here's how
here's the acronym I created around concepts that other people
(31:24):
have talked about. Like I say, like, there's so many
people on LinkedIn talking about presence, communication, leadership, management, all
topics that I speak on, but people follow me perhaps
because they connect to me as an introvert, or they
like my background or my story like having been in
tech and starting my own business now, or they like
that the way I present information is very tactical and
(31:45):
very clear. So just yeah, it's just I think we
would just put too much pressure on ourselves to make
it perfect. But it doesn't have to be. And there's
going to be many competitors out there and people talking
about similar things, but nothing is groundbreaking. We're all just
putting our own spin on it.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah. I think that's a really big part, isn't it
Just to take the heat of a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Like the gen Z question I asked you earlier, I
think it actually applies to all generations. We get a
bit kind of nervous about it or how might I
be perceived. I think we just sort of look, think
about the contribution you're making. If it's a great comment
and you've got some thought leadership, just put it out there.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I think that you kind of I flipped the other way,
maybe said I'm older, But just like, if I think
it's valuable, I want to why should I hold it
in because then no one gets to share it and
it might spark a bigger conversation but I do understand
how people struggle sometimes to get.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Over that hunt.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
But what I do find is when they do start commenting,
and they do, they start to comment more, and it's
like they go, Okay, that wasn't so bad, Like actually
someone responded, someone liked it, or entertained the question. So
I think, if you're out there and you're not posting
just yet, someone else is already posting. You know, the
Rain's doing it five times a week. You know, you
know I'm doing it four times a week. Jump on,
(32:53):
jump on, and you touched on TikTok. Is they're going
to go on Instagram? Are they also channels that you're
focused on? Or it mainly on LinkedIn's view?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
So LinkedIn's definitely my main channel. I am starting to
be a little bit more intentional with Instagram TikTok. I
haven't even touched yet. To be honest, I'm LinkedIn has
already just so much work, and you want to go
where your audience is, right. I'm sure there's people who
would enjoy, you know, seeing me on TikTok, but LinkedIn
is really where I've spent the most of the time.
(33:23):
I might work with a lot of enterprises, so LinkedIn
makes sense for me. Maybe a little bit of Instagram,
but now who's to say in the future and not.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Opposed to it. It's interesting, isn't it. Here's one thing
some of the gen Z's have said to me this, Yeah,
we can't think LinkedIn. We're on LinkedIn, but we think
most people are there are absolutely full of it, so
don't really really hold a lot of credence in it.
We go to Instagram first to see the real them,
then we might go back to LinkedIn. It's really interesting.
(33:49):
They like their safety checks Instagram.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, which I know You've got huge presence on Instagram
as well, and so I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
And that's this is coming from people who book us,
you know.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
So because like if a leader says to gen Z
you're in marketing or in the EA, or someone like
that says, hey miss Lorraine and k Lee, can you
go and find a little bit about her and see
how it could contact her, they will go to Instagram first,
right and see there, and you've been a great presence,
so and then they might go to LinkedIn. The actually
go definitely rates like as high in that that particular
(34:22):
user group, TikTok I'm not sure. I think TikTok's stuff
for it a little bit because of the US and
where they're going to shut them down keep it going.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
So I think a lot of people went to Instagram because.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Well that wasn't And that said, I've been doing work
with professionally with TikTok recently and it's been really amazing.
And I've been working some corporates who are doing work
with the corporate team at TikTok, and so their direction
and where they go from a corporate perspective with depending
on the industry you're in, is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
It's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
The other tip I saw with a company I was
doing work with, a fantastic group called called Weller. In
the hair they do hair color is the biggest thing,
so one of the because organizations the world in terms
of salons. But they all the stuff there have a
corporate link, a corporate Instagram, so.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It might be Lorraine Lorrain at Weller Instagram and.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So you post, they post predominantly on Instagram one because
the visual medium, so that works really well from hair
color and styling and fashions awesome. But they also have
their their Instagram as well, so I just so I
say that people, where are your customers? Like where are
your who buys from you?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Like?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Where are they placed? I think that's that's a really
good answer. But I'm starting to see a little bit
on the TikTok thing, so I'm fascinating. I reckon, I'm
going to see Lorain Kaylee on TikTok smashing it next year,
I think twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
From you, You're yeah, you're more in that world, so
to get some advice, you're.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Definitely going to be doing it. And let's talk about
speaking per second.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
You had a really good point and which I loved
as always, but there was a great point you made
about speaking. A lot of people said, look, reduce your
slide down, keep it content short, and you were like, no,
increase your slides. I'm like, wow, Wow, I came back
to that, check that and I read it again. I thought,
that's actually a really good point if I'm right. Couldase
explain a little bit more about that while you should
have more slides and I think you were saying it
(36:11):
more in the context of virtuals, but I'd like to
get you to be on that.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think it would be virtual definitely virtual,
but also in person. So the reason I said to
have more slides is because what a lot of people
do is they, especially in corporate, they just put like
everything like the texas so small, laugh, and it's way
too much information on one slide. And then they're not
even like fading things in. It's just everything's just on
(36:37):
there and while you're talking, everyone just reading while you're talking.
And so in the book, I talk about movement as
one of the best ways to recapture attention to boost
some dopamine in the brain, especially in a virtual environment,
because we're just expect so much movement, go go, go
on video. And so if you can make your presentation
such that, oh, I'm constantly fading my points in, I'm
(37:00):
doing one idea per slide, and then I go to
the next side and the next side. Anytime you do
a slide change, I just think back to a presentation
that you've watched. If you're kind of tuning out, okay,
they change the slide, Oh you're paying attention again, right right,
And so it's just constantly that triggered to keep people engaged.
And so it's not more slides and a ton of
content on each side, breaking up the content so that
(37:22):
you're moving through it much faster.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, that's that's such great advice.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I heard my dayd HP where my team were putting
together a presentation. They had sixty minutes and they were like,
and I said, hey, going guys, not.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, man, we're struggling. We're struggling. I go, why is that?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And I said, well, we got sixty minutes. I said, well,
how many how many slides and what your content look like?
And I said, uh, we're up to fifty, but we
just need not a ten and they went really detailed
slide like that, we need to hand up. You're going
for one a minute here, and they gang, yeah, because
if we just keep pumping up through they went, we
(37:57):
went to speak much people just readly don't go.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I think I'm gonna have a chat about this.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
So I okay from that world, but I totally get yours,
which is like that. And I think the combination of
video think about people were so used to video and
video scening, video keeping the movement up, having the idea
per s live, keeping them big. I think that's the
other big one, and even more so on virtual to
your point, So yeah, I really encourage that the people
you have a reader that if you're presenting this and
(38:22):
fantastic stuff, Lorraine's got into the book, which comes from
a true speaking professional, I might add, so this is
stuff is tried and true, so please have a look
at it. I certainly picked up some great ones in
that made and it made so much sense. I had
a question for you, which was this. I only thought
of it this morning, so I'm stragging in without notice.
Was if you were starting this, and it's a little
(38:44):
bit about AI, if you were starting your business in
August twenty twenty five, would you do anything differently than
when you did start it.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yes, I would have brought on virtual assistance a bit
sooner to help with things like design and you know,
just kind of like the nitty gritty that you know,
I should be spending time like talking to clients and
speaking and all that. So, but it's hard because you're like, oh,
(39:15):
I'm not making any money yet. So but there's lots
of really great talent out there, like in the Philippines
for example. You know, it's not too expensive, so that
that would have been really helpful. You mentioned AI creating. Yeah,
taking the time to sort of lay the foundation, I
think with the right tools or systems or processes, which
(39:38):
I'm still you know, it's still always an iterative, iterative thing.
And like I just made my first full time hire
a few weeks ago, so like we're kind of doing
another revamp. So these things will change over time as
the company evolves.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Guess even now, like I do want to get a
little bit more knowledgeable in AI and figure out, yeah,
how can I make things more efficient? So that's constantly
a learning and process.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
It's a good point you make.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
I remember Mark Andrews when he after he sold they
stole Netscape, so he found a Netscape with Jim Clark
after I sold an Escape and he was doing his
next startup. Similar question was, so, Mark, what are you doing?
What are you doing this time round? And he said,
I've got my first two hires. What I learned my
first two highs at this time around one a lawyer
because I'm doing some of my stuff around Payton's and
(40:27):
IP and my second high is a head of HR.
And he said, because that really I didn't to your point.
Even when he started Netscape, he said, we try to
do too much our soulves we need to bring people on.
Then when we started to bring people along, we had
to bring a lot on very quickly, and I lost
all my bandwidth. And so his first two highs had
a lawyer, attorney and then head of HR.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
So, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Anything on AI you're favoring any particular aim from check
GBT to Claude the Gemini is anything that's kind of
working for.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I've been I do use a lot of chat GBT,
but and you know this is probably nothing new to
you or your audience. You need to still have the
skill set right. So it's helping me rewrite emails, it's
helping me write drafts of things. But I'll know if
something doesn't quite sound right, or if it's not the
tone that I want, or just something just sounds forced
(41:21):
or you know, just not not smooth.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
No flow.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
So you know, you grain of salt when you use
tools like that. That's the main one. Actually I use.
I do experiment every now and then with some of
the other ones, but chat Gibt has done a really
great job just knowing coo I am at this point.
So it's kind of hard once you're in one too.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
I think teach another one right, and that's where I
was getting to. Yeah, yeah, it's hard. I did hear it.
This is in the ZEITGT.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Something actually this morning before I jumped on the call
with you, is that overnight someone had posted on about
check GBT five that gave a response which no one
had seen before that even called a musk's eye, which
it said, I don't know, I don't think. I don't
I don't know, and I don't think I can help
you with this answer or this question. And that's the
(42:10):
first time. That's a really interesting breakthrough. Was it was
on that what I said. I think it might have
been on Instagram or LinkedIn. I saw it post up.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
It was over night.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yet's first time that anyone saying a chat GBT actually
come back because it's not hallucinating. I'm not giving this stuff.
It's right, it's actually come back going. I don't think
it's possible for me to answer this one. I don't
think I've got I don't think what the do.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
You remember what the topic was? I think obscure. I
don't really know.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
It was actually someone someone using it and posted it,
but it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
It wasn't. I didn't think it.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Was like two off the reservation, but it was an
interesting kind of breakthrough that that's it's saying that. So
there we go the rain where our time is almost up,
which has been excited when I could go on for
another two and a half years, not ours? Where can
people find out more about you? What's the what's the
best place to, what's to go to for Lorraine Kaylee that's.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Not on LinkedIn. Would love for all your listeners to
connect with me. Let them know you you heard me
on this podcast. That would be great. Would love to
say hi, my book, as you mentioned, thank you again
for reading and grabbing a copy. The book is sold
anywhere where books are sold. And I have a free
newsletter weekly newsletter Career Bites, bite sized tips to supercharge
(43:21):
your career in three minutes or less, So you can
find that at Lorraine Kayley dot com slash subscribe and
then any companies who are interested in working with me
you can reach.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Out on my website. Yeah beautiful, thanks to Ryan. It's
been very really great.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
And I said linkedin' is the first one Loren's all
says she mentioned before. She's on Instagram. Do you want
to you want to check her out? There, get hold
of the book. Definitely get hold of the book, have
a good read through that one. I'm going to do
a little video on the book. I've been wanting to
do if I want to finish the book first, I
was going to go web free videos or the finacebook first.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
I'm gonna do a little snippet for you. But thanks
so much for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I hope you enjoyed this episode It's All Possible podcast.
You can contact me at Rob at Robhartner dot com
or my website robhart Do dot com, or on LinkedIn.
Remember to check out the previous seasons and episodes of
the podcast and the show notes for more details on
this episode's guest.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
For more inspiration, remember to check out the.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
All Possibility players on Spotify, which contains a collection upbeat,
positive music I use for inspiration with my live performances.
Until next time, Live with Passion had a perspective of
possibility
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