September 30, 2025 • 53 mins
Ever wanted to start your own business? Think you have left your run too late? Well think again. This It’s All Possible podcast latest episode is with Legal Outsourcing Business Clario CEO and Co-Founder Richard Kohinga .
We discuss Richard's career journey from journalism to a long and distinguished global career at KPMG to the start up world where Richard and I first met and now his own business in the legal space. Clariois also a family based business and we discuss the upsides and challenges of family business in this episode. Good news is its worth it!
Richard is also one of the best B2B sales professionals I know and we discuss our experiences and the changes impacting B2B and Enterprise selling.
You can find more about Richard on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-kohinga/
You can find out more about Clario at https://clario.com.au/
We discuss Richard's career journey from journalism to a long and distinguished global career at KPMG to the start up world where Richard and I first met and now his own business in the legal space. Clariois also a family based business and we discuss the upsides and challenges of family business in this episode. Good news is its worth it!
Richard is also one of the best B2B sales professionals I know and we discuss our experiences and the changes impacting B2B and Enterprise selling.
You can find more about Richard on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-kohinga/
You can find out more about Clario at https://clario.com.au/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartner, and as your chief possibility officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. Today, I'm excited to have a
great friend of mine, great colleague of a very learned colleague.
He's going to take us through his professional career and
also his new business which is very exciting, which you
(00:49):
please welcome to the main stage to the podcast, mister
Richard Kohinger.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Very kind of you.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Right, great to be here, Richie. It's so fantastic. You
and I have had many conversations and many times I've
thought to myself, we should have recorded that, and I thought,
let's do it. We've got to record one of these
because I always find talking with you really insightful and
always learned something from you and our thoughts, no good
me just having this is far smarter people than me,
that you listened to this, that that would get so
(01:17):
much more out of it. Let's take it back a
little step here. So we're going to talk about your business,
so Claria a little later, but I want to go
back to where we first met. We met three professional
services and you've had a long and distinguished career in
professional services working for one of the big four. Just
take us back. How did you get into working for
one of the big four organizations? And I know you
(01:37):
work globalist, Take us back and tell us a little
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Happy to So, I had a career before KPMG.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
My first job at a Yennie was with GE and
to financial services. Worked some really smart, driven people. I
then transitioned into government and played some advisory roles there. Passionate,
really ethical people, right, and so when I joined KPMG
was bringing together the best of these two. These two
(02:07):
things I admired in government and industry, which is I
worked with people who were just so hard working, super smart.
But I also had a real sense of the diisial
of responsibility to the client base and people with great
credibility who I loved, you know, I loved working with
and so that's why, Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I did have a long career KPMG. I think I
found my home.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
You worked across the world, too, didn't you. I mean
it wasn't just one place.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well that's right.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, So I was with KPMG for seventeen years, and
people think, wow, how does that work? But it was
multiple roles, in multiplications, So I worked in twenty different countries.
I was based for the small little time in Asia,
but then you know, seventies in the Middle East, and
so there was just so much diversity. These big you know,
(02:57):
these big businesses create tremendous opportunity, you know, if you're
prepared to embrace new experiences and have a go.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. I think that's
one of the things. And I just repeat that again.
You said it was seventeen years, wasn't it. The KPMG
in title.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I was a child prodigy. I started my career when
I was twelve.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well, yeah, that's right. They were accused of a bit
like Nike, of recruiting people like you, even when you're
a twelve years old straight out of boarding school and
you raced off yeah, look a phenomenal career in it.
I think that's very true with some of the big
consulting firms, especially some of the younger audience gens edge
and things that they sometimes I like to transition and
(03:40):
get new roles and do different things. But sometimes inside
a big org like a KPMG and bw C and
Deloitte and the others, you can actually have multiple careers
under the same umbrella if you're prepared to to just
say to kind of move around or learn or change
and change roles in career inside the business. So I say,
there's still lots of exciting stuff you can do under
(04:01):
one umbrella. And I spent quite a bit you know
any of that. But even places like HP and Apple,
there was a role you died, three roles in the
HP and it was one of the great business that
you could move around if you showed interest, you had passion,
and you could keep the same suit of IP want
you to leave it then, And I met people who
have been thirty forty years in that business and they'd
(04:23):
had multiple roles through it. So really, I'm not sure
that's going to be much more of the future, but
it was certainly back then.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Well, one of the things that my government experience taught me.
You know, there are people in it had been in
certain roles for departments for ten, fifteen, twenty years and
they had organizational the organizational history and were able to
you know, you'd ask them a question and they go, well,
(04:50):
five years ago we did this, and six years ago
we did that. So powerful and so my last role,
well second last role was I was in the run
one job for seven years. But people would ask me
a question. I go, oh, you need to speak to
so and so, you need to do this. And so
there's a lot to a lot of general counselors and
heads of legal I work with have been in those roles,
(05:12):
you know, for a big chunk of time, and they
are just so valuable.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, necess because they very very much corporate knowledge.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah I p So what did you do from a
union perspective though? And tell people along and know what
did you what degree did you do? What was your
study before you got into the ge For example.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So I actually want to be a journalist, So I
studied literature and political science and Australia and the United
States and came back and I did I actually did
start my career in journalism, so freelancing before moving into
communication roles, and it was community. It was when you're
in these media management, communication roles, advisory roles. I looked
(05:53):
across I was working with marketers and they have a
really marketers have a great way of organizing themselves, like
linking a vision, objective, strategy, tactics, and so I thought,
I want to learn how to do that, and so
I completed the Masters and Marketing and it was really
the combination of communications and marketing skills which led me
(06:17):
to KPMG because I went in and was in these
pursuit roles where you run large proposals and so you're
around packaging opp ideas and vose propositions.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, that's that's incredible. I actually didn't know the background
and you did that when you're looking to do journalism
first off, so amazing what you're sometimes doing UNI and
where you actually end up. And I like your step
along the way. We went back and did the marketing
element as well, when you when you discovered some interest
in that. It's one of the things I always say
to people. You know, passion comes after action, right, so
(06:52):
or in other way, action proceeds passion. You can't actually
get passionate about something will work out something you want
to do more of unless you actually do something and
take some sort of action, which is clear example of
what you did. Then. So let's move forward. So you've done,
You're going to go on my journalist. You got into that,
got into the space, you did, G did government. Did
a long, long, stitting career started the age of twelve.
(07:14):
Of course you did your degree when you were five,
which is amazing. They're working this back in way, well,
it's very smart. Then seventeen years at KPMG and then
you went and joined essentially a business. Now is this
would be plexus where you started with them? Was it
in like a What attracted you to leave KPMG and
moved to something to do something different?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
There's always push pull factors, right. So I came back
from overseas, done lots of interesting things, and John rejoined
the Australian practice and it was a sense of going
back was not forwards, So doing the same things that
I've been doing before. And I remember bumping into someone
in the lift in Sydney and they said the KPg
(07:57):
and they said, how which have you been on leave?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I haven't seen you for a while. We've been out
of the country for seven years. Seven years.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Obsely he made a big impression in their life, but
it was the sense of, OK, I think of I.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Think I need to do something different.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
And so I caught up with a made of mine
who ran a run an equipment company and I said, listen,
I wanted I wanted to build out some technologies. I've
got some ideas around that. And he said, well, you
know you're not a technologist by trade. You know you've consulted,
but wouldn't it make sense for you to actually join
(08:34):
a technology business and understand, you know, how solutions work
from inside surrounded by smart people. I said, yeah, that
does probably make sense and he said, well, great, have.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I got the job for you? And so yeah, yeah,
I got played.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
But he was right.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I said, Plexus, there's wonderful business. And Andrew Mallett, the CEO,
focused in on improving the law, specifically in house legal
teams and providing two ways, one us through seconded resources,
so helping them manage the workflows through that flexible resource pool,
(09:15):
but also through legal technology and their gateway solution, which
I got visibility of and really understood it from an
in house legal perspective and that was super helpful. But
the thing that Andy mainly got me to focus in
on was there to common business. So I ran that
for quite a few years and we did really well,
(09:37):
and ultimately the decision was made to sell that business
to enable the technology business to flourish, and so I
was involved in that process, which is how we ended
up moving to Axiom in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Tell me a little bit about the seventeen years at KPMG.
Obviously had a lot of euro very successful there. You
decided to move to you joined Plexus though, which was
and having you know, I'm not met any maillet, but
I've read a lot of new stuff and seen the
way he operates, and I've caught up with you a
number of times when you were at Plexus. But take
it through. What was the difference in terms of the
(10:15):
way that that that and he ran that business and
being a much smaller business of course, what was the
big differences between the why you were doing things the
KPMG and the way that Plexus ran.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
So KPMG uh had so there was so much support,
so much capacity for help, right and those and beautiful
locations and buildings and the ability to travel well. But
in the startup environment you've got to be laying maine
fighting machine and so you had to as a kind
(10:52):
of seeing a person really operate independently and self manage
and self help. So that that's probably the biggest difference.
You just have to get on with it. But the
other big difference is if you can convince the CEO
to do something. In a startup environment, it gets done right,
where in a larger business often it's about creating a
(11:15):
coalition of the willing and so selling in an idea
that others can benefit from. But that's that can be
a slower process. It should be a slow process. So
it's just the speed of action. You can be super
innovative in a small startup environment for sure, and that's
exciting because you can you can get things done.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, And I think the other I think that definitely
that can work and get things done quickly if if
it's a good idea. The other thing, though, which you
don't have in that startup environment, you don't have that
KPMG brand that you go in with. You've got you
coming in with. Who are you again? Where do you get.
You know, they're kind of really going back that original
sort of sales thing of who are you, what do
you do? And why does it matter? There's three great
(11:58):
questions and I remember, I'm picking your brain a bit,
if I remember, you guys getting really good at that
and being that real value proposition about being able to
quickly get to get to the right people and be
able to give you value proposition really quickly. That was
something Andy drove. If I remember, it was quite specific
about how you did that.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So yeah, the superpower of that business was really about
engaging the client base and just getting meetings, just meeting people,
having people want to meet you, yeah, and then wanting
to meet you again because they had a really great
outcome in terms of, you know, there are conversations they're
(12:41):
having with you, and so one hundred percent correct, Rob.
It's a lot tougher when you don't have a big
brand behind you with the assumptions of the value that
that that organization is going to bring to a conversation
and you have to jump on the phone and convince
someone that it's worth catching up and you know quickly.
(13:03):
So that that was a skill and you know, They've
got a whole methodology around that, and it was just
a fantastic learning opportunity.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, it was really about remember you talk about again
on the phone, and be able to get get meetings.
I think that's a really great one. But then being
able to sort of almost challenge and bring insights straight
away to that person you're talking to who is probably
not hurting you, not really know what you got value
proposition is able to bring something that kind of shook
their world a little bit to go, Jesus, guys are
worth taking a meeting with. It's as really the game,
(13:33):
wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, And you know you know sales strategy as well
as anyone. You know, you're up of subject matter expert.
But I was Millerheimann trained at KPMG and it was
the challenger model at ACCESS. And what's brilliant about the
Challenger system is it's really, as you say, it's it's
going in with a hypothesis about what their big issues
(13:56):
are likely to be. You know, the challenge is opportunities
and if you do that really well, you're actually inside
that person's head. And it so fast backs the whole
process of saying, well, you know, how can I help, well,
you embed the answer is really understand their business super
(14:17):
well and then yeah, everyone's time poor, right, And so
you can fast track to that and say look, I
think these could be your areas of focus for you
and they go yeah, actually you bang on. Then you
can have brilliant follow up conversations.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah. I love that fact. You know, it's really weird
because I used to teach. I was thinking back on
my old sales strategy workshops I ran back in about
twenty ten, and they're all full of Challenger and they're
actually in Millerhearmon workshops goes because I love the challenger
model that's CB built around the five different salespeople, and
it used to shock people. I don't put the five
up and I'd say, you know, the one in a
(14:51):
tough market, the one that actually die and falls away
is the relationship builder. And people go, what has it happened?
And I'm like, well, because they're just they're not really
adding a lot of value and in a tight session
around like we hate, especially over seas. More said in
Australia around two thousand and eight thousand and nine. I
mean relationship doing it was nice, but they're actually to
get a deal over the line, and so you have
(15:12):
to bring insight and understanding. And so I've always that's
the way I've always sold anyway, because I just think,
why would you waste someone's time without if you can't
bring them some insight or some real questions. And I
think a lot of the background behind the challenging salesperson,
which then obviously became a methodology, was around just being
super curious, right, just being really curious about how do
(15:34):
you make money and why are you doing it this way?
And if it's thought about doing it that way? And
I have always done that, but I've come to realize
this lot it's just me. Not everybody actually does that.
You do it, and you do as well. We've always
gone so well, but I think when people you're super curious,
so we have to be is just make assumptions and go,
(15:54):
you know, actually, I've seen this business doing something different.
How come you guys don't do that? That's like that's going.
I know your business so well that I've looked at
another one that's similar, and you, guys, there's an opportunity
missing out on all. That's the problem that actually you
could solve that you're not solving or did you know that?
And you just bring that kind of interest interest and
sometimes it lands, and most times it does. Sometimes they're
(16:16):
ready to do something, sometimes they're they're not. And I
think I've found definitely the startup businesses that I was
involved at, even previous to you and I again together
and it was a couple of the eyes. I was
in a big ic P startup and that was it.
You just had to be able to get the kind
of you had to get to the get cut to
the quick pretty pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Great conversations. I was about great questions. I ran a
client insights program for Kpingjury across the Middle East and
South Asia, and I go out and meet a whole
lot of CEOs and managing directors, and I had a
formula of questions that I would post to them, and
primarily because I can then at the back end of
(16:58):
that extrapolate out some general observations about the market because
you can quantify it.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
But I would ask.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
These questions and often they give quite a technical answer
that I was not knowledgeable enough to unpack, and so
I would just sit there in silence, you try and
understand what they just said, and they would fill the space,
(17:29):
you know, the concept of golden silence. And then they
would keep going and I realized, oh, these people don't
they don't actually get listened to very often. They're only
isolated roles. They're deeply intellectual and being prodded that way,
can actually really think, you know, have the headspace to
(17:53):
really think about their business. And so I came out
some of those conversations where people are like, I really
appreciated what you had to say. That was fun, that
was really good, and I thought, but I didn't say.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
What I did was give them the opportunity to share.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And you know, I have a foot in two camps.
I love the Millerheim and that the ability to focus
on Montame relationships because you know, that's my inner marketing
you know, probably in a marketing soul coming through there,
which is about focus on developing your client base. That's
(18:30):
where my business is going to come from. And perhaps
that's a KPMG torurism as well. But but I blended
at with with the my basics experience, which is that's
all well and good, but you need to actually go
and meet new people. You've got to get outside the walls,
right and and and then if you're going to do that,
then you've got to have something compelling to say, and
(18:51):
you need how to close it close deals.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, no, it's exactly right. In fact, if you're telling
your book yourselves, exactly one of the points that the
authors make it is say, hey, we're not I don't,
she said, as they just have it with a point like,
can get outside and meet you people, bring some insight
to it, you know. So it's a good point to make.
In chapter one You Revived Me, there was a consultant
colleague of a colleague of mine many years ago, was
(19:13):
got introduced to another person, other CEO. So he's working
with a CEO, and the other CEO said, the guy
you should meet. He's expanding his business. Blah blah blah.
I think you guys can get on well. So he
takes this meeting with this other CEO referred in and
this CEO is just deep diving, deep diving, and my
colleague is going, I don't know why I'm here. I
actually can't respond to anything this guy's saying. He's like,
(19:37):
so deep, so so deep in the weeds. I don't
know what to say. And he's thinking to himself, God,
this was great the meeting, but I just don't think
there's anything for me here, and maybe we should wind
this up. And as he at the end of forty
five minutes, he really hasn't contributed very much at all.
He literally was about to get out of his seat
and say, hey, great to me. I'm glad we got connected,
(19:57):
but look, nothing really here. But if something comes up
around these areas, feel free to reach out to me.
He's literally about to say that you got the CEO. Guys, Hey,
great meeting. I really enjoyed the discussion. It was very valid.
It allowed me to kind of think about a few
things which I haven't had and you know, the bandwidth
to do. I sense a real connection with This is
a couple of projects I'd like you to get started
(20:18):
on in the next month. If you've got availability. Let
me introduce you a couple of my team. Would you
be okay to go? And my colleague goes absolutely ready
to start, he said if I hadn't got his word,
and he was about to exit, but and again he
said the same thing that he realized that this CEO
and again, this is very true. And you at the CERN,
your leaders, A lot of people just coming through the
(20:39):
door going sign that do this. I've got a problem here?
Can you fix that bit? Over there? Very very little
the people come in and go ask a good, insightful question,
which you clearly did at the start, and then let
them go and listen with intent. Now, you can't downplay
this thing. I didn't much to say it. I will
guarantee you that you were using great physiology in terms
(20:59):
of adding agreeing, you know, maybe taking a few notes
that allow the other person to go, hey, just someone's
genuinely listening to me, which you would have been doing
because I know you well enough. That's a real skill
in itself, even though your head might have been going, God,
I don't know where guy's going with this, or I
can't I'm not sure I can actually come back with
a really good answer. The fact that you could actually
listen with intent is an amazing skill and people it's underrated.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, we're in total agreement.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, now let's talk about so you do really well
at Plexus you exit out of that. I think it
took a small break from that and then but I
wanted to ask one question because you did the consulting
stuff and Plexus was very much about the legal profession
and your new businesses. About the legal profession, What do
you love about the legal profession?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It's boring old answer, but it's people. Of course, lawyers
can be quirky, they can be demanding, but they can
also so be just an absolute delight to work with.
And so I've loved my exposure to the law and
it goes back to maybe a bit of the KPMG thing.
(22:10):
Super smart, hard working, driven people who you know, want
to make the world a better place. And so yeah,
it's been fantastic.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I love I love what you just said. I think
that's surprising. I think people who are listening will be
surprised the way you actually said that I love the
legal profession because it's because of the people and the
people and just the things you said there. So that
would be probably revelation to what the profession kind of
puts out like it doesn't appear to be like a
real people orientated area. And also people wanting to make
the play the world a better place. I actually think
(22:41):
that's true. So I'm really it's amazing that that's one
of the reasons that you like to me, you come
across that, you come across them often like that.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I can have a bit of a you know, a
frustrating morning and then jump into a meeting with you
one of my clients and just my way just so
pumped up.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
That's right, Yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
We've been able to help them, or you know, just
listening to what they're focusing and on and what they're
trying to do.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And no, no, no, a hundred Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Maybe there is some cynicism about the law, but it's
it's totally unfounded because people who you think about what
they're training, what attracted a lawyer to go in to
go through the pain of completing their degree and going
through the training.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
For most people, they genuinely see.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
It as a pathway to making business, business world better, smarter,
more effective.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And that comes through the people I work with all
the time.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, that's brilliant. And I also think it's a great
bit like accounting in many ways, doing a law degree
this can also set you up for so many things.
I've known so many people who are doing different different
things in their lives now came off the back end
of law and the great people like the great people,
and they practiced for a while or or in corporate
or in private practice, and they've gone done different things.
(24:09):
So it's one of these great bases. Now tell me
about the startup. So you left, you had a bit
of a break, you came back. What then inspired you
to go, Hey, you know what, I want to start
my own business and you're going to start Clara, tell
me about that process.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I think I was always edging there, so meaning the
shift from KPMG to Plexus was about having the having
more freedom to do things. But even in working for
Plexus and then accidom Law, I still have bosses and
(24:48):
so you know, I thought, oh, man, if I had
my own business, I could be as super innovative and
even more helpful to my client base. Actually, how all
these amazing ideas right? And so that was really the
big driver. It was just the freedom.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I think.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
The second thing to say is just the commercial opportunity,
particularly in twenty twenty five, as we you know, transition
into an ali power world. You want to be you
want to have some sort of control over your destiny, yes,
and the best way to do that is to run
(25:29):
your own business. In my mind, particularly if you can
find a niche and you can do something that you know,
fill a gap that and do it better than everyone else.
And so and I had experienced what it looks like
to sell a business get their commercials of that. Yeah,
so you know I think they were you know, they're
(25:52):
the two reasons. It was the freedom to really create
something that the market that by clients need.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, and then the commercial upside.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, fantastic. So tell us, Yeah, elevated pitch. Now Claro
what does it do? What it exists for?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So so so Clario actually is Latin for clarity.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
It means you know, and we we see.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Ourselves bringing clarity to in house legal teams around how
they resource themselves, but also how they leverage technology to
deliver even more value to their business. So we're a
secondment business. That's what we're knowing from the market, meaning
we provide lawyers to fill gaps, you know, to special projects,
(26:43):
skill sets that they don't have on a temporary basis.
We also recruit and we are legal consultants. And the
legal consulting side is around this AI transition. And it
was you know, I spoke to over one hundred general
account and heads of legal before launching the business. Yeah,
and it was just in the spirit of you know,
(27:05):
how can I help what's you know, what's not out
there that's helping you? And it was it was this
AI journey that just popped up again and again and again,
and so they were saying, you know, where do I start?
How do I integrate it into my legacy systems? You know,
can you how can you guide my team? And so
(27:25):
that's the third element about business and probably the most
exciting part of it.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I was going to say, is that part would be
the fastest growing I imagine of your business.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I think one hundred percent it is. It's the conversations.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Nine out of ten people I speak to will want
to launch into that conversation.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yeah, what specifically are they wanting to know from it?
Is it about what is AI? Or how fast is
it going? Or where do you are? They asking questions
where do you see it being the best fit inside
their practice?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, you can't go to a conference now without there
being some section devoted to AI and that the influence
is going to have over the industry. But often those
conversations could be quite high level and motherhooding, yes, sort
of going down a level and saying, okay, great, well
but where what do you mean what specypically can this
(28:23):
do in terms of my team and our legal output.
And so it's it's it's that's really the conversation that
people are looking for help help with most you know,
if I think about most people I speak to, they
probably fit in three camps. One would be it's all
hype and don't see it playing a significant.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Role in what I do.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
I'm an advisor, you know, by bring judgment, you very
bespoken matters. I don't have, you know, millions of contracts
to turn out. Another group would be uh, yeah, no, no,
we get it. But I've got these, you know, I
already have legal technology, invested a lot of money, resource
(29:09):
and political capital to develop that. And so they're trying
to work out, well, where's the gaps and how can
I help and how do we integrate that? I mean,
the third group would be uninhibited, inhibited by legacy technologies
have been really open, right, So they're.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Trying to say, well, great, where do I start?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
And uh and so probably they're you know that that's
the cohort. Well, that that is probably the cohort where
I'm most excited about having conversations.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
It's going to be so easy for them to jump in.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, and they're also I think open to it as well.
Even in your first example you gave that I actually
think that is exactly where I am going to play
a space, you know, if you're just thinking, you're you know,
you're doing judgments and based on history, and yeah, I
think AI very quickly. Well, we're seeing how far it's
moving now. I definitely think it's a space. I think
(30:04):
one of the other areas we're going to ask you about
with the legal profession, there's been a number of cases
where we've seen AI go wrong in the legal profession,
where they've either abused the privilege a little bit, our source,
our source to some of the some things to AI
and AI have not got it right or has doubled up.
And I've seen AI and contracts not doing so well.
We've seen I think some cases in front of you
(30:25):
with judgments and the like where AI has been called
out that the firm used AI. Have you seen things
like that where they've not quite got it right.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Well, we've read, we've all read about them, so I
personally no, I haven't.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
But in terms of.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's natural for our profession to think about the risk
the downside, you know, because the responsibility of in how
legal teams is to protect the create the railguards, the
safeguards for the business operate without issues around data integrity
and privacy and misinformation.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
So it's right that we focus in on that.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Yeah, but I think the challenge with this technology is
it's just a speed off growth.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And you know it, it's mind boggling.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
So so so what you utilize six months ago compared
to today and what's likely to be available to us
in six months time, right, it's.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
It's it's very hard to get your head around that.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
So the the idea that you know that that that
AI is going to be problematic and create create all
these areas that you're going to have to check and
double check, I think is is it is not going
to be the case going forward. We're not to the
same degree, and I think that the challenge you'll always
(31:55):
need to check and double check and have processes around things.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I'm not suggesting you don't do that.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
But the upside the value, Yeah, it's just it will
it will transform the way legal services are going to
be delivered.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah. No, I agree with you, and I think that
some of the breakthrough stuff even you know that you
would have probably seen the tweet about what this about
Chuck GBT five last week when it was asked the
question and the user posted this, I think got x
and he said that he asked this question. They didn't
put the question what the question was. It would have
been interesting to know what that was, but it didn't
(32:33):
post a question and reasonable question, and it actually paused
for thirty thirty four seconds and then came back with
the answer, I'm not sure I can help you with
this one. This is probably beyond what I can do.
That's like an absolute first. It all is usually hallucination.
I'll come back with something of some description, then ask
you for more guidance. And so it got a bit
(32:53):
of attention that it actually started to think and go,
you know what, how to look around? And that question
you asked me was pretty good And no, I actually
can't help you that. That's almost getting the point about
self correction, that's what. And I think your point about
what we're seeing now, that what we're going to see
in six months is going to be vastly different. And
I couldn't agree more. And that makes it hard to plan, that,
doesn't it? Do you find some clients then go, actually,
(33:14):
it's just hold back or we're just they're just kind
of a watching brief.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I think most most people are very early on in
their journey, and so they're grappling with those fears and concerns,
but also trying and understand how it can help. But
most most people, like the vast majority, And that's a
great example you gave. We have a close working relationship
with Pathfinder, which is an organization that really helps organizations
(33:44):
in bed IIH powered technologies, and they do that by
by trying one of these amazing discovery workshops where they
get think people thinking about the problems they're trying to
solve and how A can help and educate them on.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
But yeah, there's CEO gave.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
That example recently about how previously touch BT would say yep,
his answer, where you know it's transitioning to saying, well,
he's an answer, but it could also there's some nuance
to it, yes and uh, and then you know it
will go further and say, I've got maybe that's a
very difficult question to answer, and yeah, here's some things
(34:25):
for you to explore.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
But he also said, you know, prompt it.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Yeah, so except yeah, it's almost like a dialog and
so it's okay, Ah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Go deeper. Yeah, well that's that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Explore this, yes, and it's it's that educating ourselves around
being but prompt.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Is and that's that's where the real skill is going
to be.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with you. And it's
really fascinating. I'll be running a few few workshops with
with some with some clients SUFFICI in the banking space.
It's really interesting. If I've got multi generations in my
in my group and you be familiar with this, and
we were talking about value propositions and like and actually
generating like a like a BBR you know, velid business
reason a way to kick off a meeting, things like this,
(35:08):
And we're just working out industry trends and doing that
challenge type, you know, question what would be what's one
we could use? And it's really fascinating the gens. The
first thing I do is open up the laptop and
bang onto copile perplexity and I've got the boomers on
the other side of the room and got the flip
chat up, be going. Can I recoon this one worked? Fascinate.
I'm just looking at the voter, isn't it right? And
(35:28):
so what was interesting in the gen Z that they
came up with a couple of ideas which they clearly
you they're off off copolant and I encourage that they
and I read it out to him. This is my
co pilot said what do you reckon? Ro And I go,
it's not impressive at all, right, and this is a
great by note quite well, so very open to be challenged.
I said, that doesn't impress me that one. And so
(35:51):
they literally went straight back to cope and go, this
doesn't impress at all. And then co pilot came up
with a rapper. So it's like that the promises you said,
I just took you. I just took your prompt because that, yeah,
it just impress it at all.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Like this part, we knew each other improve his lives.
But you know I used to do sales training at
one point. Yes, yes, heartners, And I don't know how
it go about it now because people were in fact
checking you in the moment and you know, be on
(36:25):
their phones and you know, cross referencing things.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It would be very difficult. It'd be very difficult.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
I think about all the different professions where yeah I
can help, but it can also undermined you in a small.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
In some ways, yes, but in some way I find it.
I find it an absolute bonus for sales training because
what it does and it should do, and it's still
not quite there yet is really take a lot of
the hack and the grindworkout. So I assuely if you're
thinking about you want to research a client, you know
you can now become a student of the industry and
a student of a client very quickly in terms of
(37:01):
the trends are affecting them, what the market's doing, what
business is doing. Really, you can get that stuff up
there now. The art is in how you translate that
into a vber like a valid business reason to kick
off a meeting, what your next line of questions will be,
or how do you get their attention in the first place,
because without attention you can't educate, right, So it's the
old I eat a thing without If you got attention,
then I've got Then I can educate and then I
(37:23):
can make it, make a change. So how do you
get their attention? How do you get them that that
stuff we talked about earlier. When you're in a startup, well,
AI allows you to do you good if you know
to use AI. You know, they use the prompts to
your point. You can get really quickly to the another
of it, which is what this team was doing. And
it was just fascinating thing the two how the two
groups went about it right, and the Boomers were like
literally writing it up. And I said, that's interesting. Let
(37:44):
us have discover this group first. And I said, how
did you go about this exercise? And they said, is
how this is how we use copile And the other
group were like, ah, god, we never thought about copile.
That's the big win in One of the wins of
that meeting that I did of sales training I did
was the fact that opening up the fact that AI
to a whole group of people whose natural first place
wasn't the go to AI, whereas the gen z is
(38:06):
their first place was to go to AI.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
What we're drilling into here is learning pathways.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
The people who are going to benefit the mast from
these technologies are going to be those who are open
and curious to use your word and can invest and
have the time to invest in themselves. So one of
the things that I was really fortunate to do when
I finished with the accident business, I took nearly twelve
(38:33):
months off travel the world and had some wonderful adventures,
but I also took time out to really tool and
to learn a lot, and so it was an incredible
luxury that I need to thank my mortgage for funding.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
But it.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Was definitely it's been a strategic advantage for me. So
I think that the challenge is how do you keep learning?
Because all the people I work with are incredibly busy, uh,
and how do they carve out time for themselves?
Speaker 2 (39:10):
That's that's that's a channel. And then I think that's
what they've got, But that's what they've got to do.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
They've got to do it, And I think that's exactly right.
So what you've got to do there. I love the
fact you did that. So you you took some time
out and you retooled, and you have a bit more
ability to go and do that and take more time
to do it. But the reality of it is everything.
If we're intentional about something, we get it done as humans.
And you just got to say, I've got to be
intentional about retooling. I've got to be intentional about unlearning
(39:38):
and relearning. If it becomes intentional, then you will carve
out time for it. And so you look at anyone
who's successful in anything they do, from sport to business,
to building businesses to being to get mastered over crafting.
As they work for a corporate, they carve out time.
They're intentional about carving that time out. It doesn't get interrupted,
it doesn't get rolled over, it doesn't get distracted, it
(40:01):
gets done. And so as I say, what gets measure
gets done, put some goals in there. But yeah, you're
exactly right. You have to be intentional about carving that
time out. One of the leadership gurus i've worked with,
John Maxwell in the US, calls it the magic of margin,
and it's a really interesting concept. And one of these
is that you have your bau stuff you're doing all
the time, like we all do, that takes up a
(40:21):
chunk of your life, and especially if you get in
the leadership positions, you have this time you carve out
for yourself. Well you're not. Actually that's actually not margin.
That's just stuff that you need to do to get
to do your job. And you need to do it
where the buck stops with you. And it doesn't matter
if you're a u Uri or Richard Branson. There's just
some stuff that you and I have to do and
only we can do. You've got to carve out time out.
So BAU you have your own, you have personal leader.
(40:44):
Time margin is on top of that. And the difference
is that is that margin is basically is all the
areas of what you can do in your life. So
if you're doing, if your whole whole capability is full,
if your BAU is completely full to the brim, you
have no time to margin, you have no time for yourself.
That's a fast track to burnout, right. So the building
(41:06):
is to carve out his BOU his lead of time.
But he's look about ten percent at the top, which
is for retooling, for being more strategic. And it can
be as simple as you take thirty minutes in the
morning when you have your coffee on your own you're
doing some retooling. There can be some time on the
weekend you carve out yourself. It doesn't matter. It's very
personal the way people do it. Sometimes it's actually a
train trip. They carve out that particular time. We get
(41:27):
the headphones in, but it's dedicated for the retooling, which
you did but actually took it had some great chunk
of time to dedicate to it. But it's the same concept.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Are the most successful people I know invest in themselves?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, I made of mine sold to business recently for
one hundred and fifty million dollars.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Which is a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yes, nice change.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
And so I spent some time with him and his buddies,
who are also really super successful people. And it reminds
me of the quote from the entrepreneur John Hone who said,
you are the average of the five people you spend
most of your time with. So I went on a
golfing trip with these guys and they are They were
all sort of thinking the same way, which is, how
(42:16):
do I improve myself? How do I help people around me?
And there's still learning and these guys are all in
their fifties and sixties, and I found that so inspiring.
So I mean the other thing, I was caught up
with a health coach and I was saying, oh, I'm
(42:39):
not disciplined enough.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I need to work hard to get fitter.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
And he said, oh, it's not disciplined, it's that you
don't you don't value yourself enough, and so you're not
You think it's more important to run the kids to
school or you know, whatever, whatever else you're doing, rather
than spending an hour you know, in the more in getting.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I thought, yeah, that's really that's it. That's fair.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
And so prioritizing your own learning is really about saying
I am important and if I do this, I'll be
able to make a better contribution to the business.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yeah, and a bit of contribution to yourself. And I
think the other point you said your buddies made the
point was they wanted to keep learning, and also they
wanted to keep growing other people as well, growing themselves
and growing others. And I think that's also helps us.
As we get better and retool and relearn, we're actually
more used for other other people, even though even those
who are closest to us as well. So I think
it's a good point. Hey, speaking of people who are
(43:38):
close to us, you've gone into business with your wife,
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (43:43):
I have?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Now? That's now, that's now we're taking to a new
level and discussion. Tell me how that came about and
how did that and how's that working? Do you have
any ground rules? And I'm keen to understand a bit
more about that.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
So how did it happen? Uh?
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Well, we Tracy, my beautiful wife. And I walked the
commune to Santiego last year and on it she said,
we're talking about this business and she said, I'd love
to help.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Now.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
She's a heavy hitter in her own right. She was
the managing director of a market research firm. She had
senior roles with Eddie Wise, she was the Australian Trade
representative to cut her and and yeah, definitely could help
the business. And so we you know, she's come on
board to drive client insights. So we want to be
in insights driven business and be able to bring that,
(44:32):
bring great thinking to our client base. And she's so
that's her job. In terms of how it's working out, well,
it's it's it's you know, it's a journey, right, Yeah,
she's We are very collaborative in our how we raise
our four daughters and everything is absolute team orientated. But
(44:53):
we we sort of worked out early on someone has
to actually be in charge of this business.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah you can't and.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
And so I've had to It's funny, I've had to say, well,
look on I'm technically I'm the boss, and so that's
that's a different dynamic. And then we've sort of worked
our way through that and it was funny. So, for example,
I had asked I asked her to do a couple
of things, and I didn't hear back, and I thought, oh,
(45:21):
that's funny because normally when I asked someone who works
for me to do something, they report back.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
And so I.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Ended up I ended up sending you an email and saying, hey,
can you just I'm just following up that thing that
I asked her about, And she responded in really funny way,
she said, Oh, dear mister Kahinga, I'm very I'm very
sorry that.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
We immediately to you know, your request, but we've we've
worked out our democation lines and how to push things forward.
I mean, the other thing I would note if you
have and those who work with family may relate the
challenge of being able to switch off is and anyone
who runs their own business for that matter. So I'm
(46:06):
really good at switching off. And so if I go
to walk walk the dogs every day, I'm not thinking
about work and I'm not talking about work. But when
Tracy joins me, you'll often see it as an opportunity
to say, oh, I've been thinking about this idea about
you know, you've got to keep the source, the source sharp,
(46:27):
and you do that by having time out, by being
able to you know, refresh yourself. And so that's that's
a that's a discipline in itself that we're trying to
work our way through.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, fantastic. I think that's awesome. And you've you've also
run a couple of summits in Sydney and Melbourne. You
did those in person, I think a couple of luncheons
around just over in the last couple of weeks. How
did they go. What was some insights from that? Why'd
you do it? The first of all, because you could
have done it virtually, but you did it in person.
With the valuable experiences for you and your clients.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
We've had some fantastic feedback. So yeah, we had.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Two roundtable lunch and Sydney melbournd up with fifty general
counsels and heads political joined us at those And it
was really to do two things. Firstly, with AI focused
and so yeah, I can talk to you all day long,
but it's really valuable when you hear from your peers
about what they're doing, what their challenges are. And so
(47:29):
it was creating a forum to do that and there's
nothing like face to face.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
I've missed that, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
I feel like it dropped off after COVID and people
just loved it. Loved the ability to actually sit across
from someone and here, what's happening in their life and
what they're focusing in on. The CEO from Pathfinder was
our guest speaker and fabulous subject matter expert and charismatic guy,
(47:57):
and so he really set that conversation up as.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Well, why would we do it? A little bit about
getting back and so.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Helping the industry think about how to embrace these new technologies, but.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Obviously we werented be able to.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Help as well, and so you know, and lean in
and help their businesses where we can, and so you know,
this position us to do that.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, and I think it's really great and interesting. On
the ai wan I firm, I was involved with you
ran a breakfast recently and for a number of senior
leaders a bit similar to what you did, and we're
just talking about the future of work, and of course
I was a key part of that. But what was
really interesting was talking to some of the attendees and
the feedback was I felt so refreshing. I'm not as
(48:44):
far behind as I thought. I was so lifting to
my other peers and we're all kind of in the
same boat, and I was just thinking, oh my god,
everyone's going to be so far ahead of us. I'm
just I think I'm dragging. I'm slow in the business.
I realized that no, everybody's actually working out we should
put in processes. What's the most area of burgency for AI.
We're all in it. And it was just so refreshing.
(49:05):
I'm so actually empowered to go back to my LT
and go, you know what, We're on the right path.
We're doing the right thing where we're you know, we're
doing this, this and this, and I've made some more
contacts and so it was really interesting just to get that.
And I just I think you wouldn't get that in
a virtual environment as well. So doing that in person
to be able to actually talk and then let it
in the session a nice little startup at the start
(49:26):
by us, but then it really took a life of
its own and people were just literally appears to shooting
the breason where they're actually very open and collaborative as well.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, I think the same thing happened for us.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
The conversation was set up, but then it was wonderful
to just watch watch paper brass, questions, make up observations
and everyone's.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Early on in the journey.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Yeah everyone.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Yeah, right, So see the idea of being left behind.
I don't think that's the case in twenty twenty five.
I do think though there's a there's apps logic to
being an early adoptor. Yeah, and I think, yeah, change
can happen to you or you can initiate it. And
if you initiate it, then you have more control over
(50:11):
what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, and you're definitely going to learn more as well.
But this is not there's no silver ball out here,
which some people think. I've seen that. That's a couple
of things I've run into. Its people think it's the
silver ball or the panacea or a problem. It's actually not.
It's a long way to go to that yet. But
you've got to get involved, you know, as I said
to you, you've got to take action first, have a
go find out whether what's what's really urgent or where
(50:34):
you want to play with it, and then play with it.
And there's absolutely will definitely change the way you do things,
and you'll certainly come away learning more for for the
next time, because as you said earlier, it's evolving. Like
what we were, what we're working with now is nothing
like we're going to see in six masks. And I
think it was even Sam melt Wan himself from Open
Aim and he said a point that I think it
was last late last year. He said, Oh, this is
(50:55):
the dumbest a I will ever be, Like what you're
using now is so agricultural to where we'll be in
twelve months or twenty four months. This is just this
is really bad what you're seeing now, but we're all
using it. I can you know, he's the vision where
it's going to go.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
It's it's difficult for humans to get their hand around
exponential growth compared to linear growth, and so we we
we just don't know what it's going to look like, right,
but we and we can't even conceive it. Yeah, and
so it's a bit like you know when the maybile
you first got your mobile phone to what it looks
like now or any technology, and so you know, and
(51:36):
that's exciting. I'm really excited about that, and I know
that a lot of people are as well.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yeah, So absolutely absolutely, Now tell us where can we
people find out a lot more about Clario. How can
we find out more about you and Clario? Where could
people go to?
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Well, I was built out a love little website, so
you know, dump on and Clario dot com DOTU you'll
find us. And so of course we're on LinkedIn and
try and create a presence there, and we'd love to
have conversations about if there's anything we do to help
you resource your team and if you're starting your AI
(52:13):
journey and if there' anything can help you help you
help there.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah, so good, good one. We'll put all that in
the show notes. Richard, fantastic the TEP, this conversation on you.
It would be great, great insights as always, and I
love the journey you're on with your wife as well.
Although you dow the Boss, we made that very clear,
so hopefully.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
In the work on the workfront maybe well you did.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
You did say technically on the Boss, so I think
you gave yourself an out on that one. So yeah,
really great mate, and thanks so much for your time today.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Awesome, Rob, Thanks mate.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the It's All
Possible Podcast. You can contact me at Rob at Rob
Haardner dot com or my website, Robharder dot com, or
on LinkedIn. Remember to check the previous seasons and episodes
of the podcast and the show notes for more details
on this episode's guest. For more inspiration, remember to check
(53:08):
out the All Possibility Players on Spotify, which contains a
collection of upbeat, positive music I use for inspiration in
my live performances. Until next time, live with passion and
a perspective of possibility.
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartner, and as your chief possibility officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. Today, I'm excited to have a
great friend of mine, great colleague of a very learned colleague.
He's going to take us through his professional career and
also his new business which is very exciting, which you
(00:49):
please welcome to the main stage to the podcast, mister
Richard Kohinger.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Very kind of you.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Right, great to be here, Richie. It's so fantastic. You
and I have had many conversations and many times I've
thought to myself, we should have recorded that, and I thought,
let's do it. We've got to record one of these
because I always find talking with you really insightful and
always learned something from you and our thoughts, no good
me just having this is far smarter people than me,
that you listened to this, that that would get so
(01:17):
much more out of it. Let's take it back a
little step here. So we're going to talk about your business,
so Claria a little later, but I want to go
back to where we first met. We met three professional
services and you've had a long and distinguished career in
professional services working for one of the big four. Just
take us back. How did you get into working for
one of the big four organizations? And I know you
(01:37):
work globalist, Take us back and tell us a little
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Happy to So, I had a career before KPMG.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
My first job at a Yennie was with GE and
to financial services. Worked some really smart, driven people. I
then transitioned into government and played some advisory roles there. Passionate,
really ethical people, right, and so when I joined KPMG
was bringing together the best of these two. These two
(02:07):
things I admired in government and industry, which is I
worked with people who were just so hard working, super smart.
But I also had a real sense of the diisial
of responsibility to the client base and people with great
credibility who I loved, you know, I loved working with
and so that's why, Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I did have a long career KPMG. I think I
found my home.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
You worked across the world, too, didn't you. I mean
it wasn't just one place.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well that's right.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, So I was with KPMG for seventeen years, and
people think, wow, how does that work? But it was
multiple roles, in multiplications, So I worked in twenty different countries.
I was based for the small little time in Asia,
but then you know, seventies in the Middle East, and
so there was just so much diversity. These big you know,
(02:57):
these big businesses create tremendous opportunity, you know, if you're
prepared to embrace new experiences and have a go.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. I think that's
one of the things. And I just repeat that again.
You said it was seventeen years, wasn't it. The KPMG
in title.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I was a child prodigy. I started my career when
I was twelve.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well, yeah, that's right. They were accused of a bit
like Nike, of recruiting people like you, even when you're
a twelve years old straight out of boarding school and
you raced off yeah, look a phenomenal career in it.
I think that's very true with some of the big
consulting firms, especially some of the younger audience gens edge
and things that they sometimes I like to transition and
(03:40):
get new roles and do different things. But sometimes inside
a big org like a KPMG and bw C and
Deloitte and the others, you can actually have multiple careers
under the same umbrella if you're prepared to to just
say to kind of move around or learn or change
and change roles in career inside the business. So I say,
there's still lots of exciting stuff you can do under
(04:01):
one umbrella. And I spent quite a bit you know
any of that. But even places like HP and Apple,
there was a role you died, three roles in the
HP and it was one of the great business that
you could move around if you showed interest, you had passion,
and you could keep the same suit of IP want
you to leave it then, And I met people who
have been thirty forty years in that business and they'd
(04:23):
had multiple roles through it. So really, I'm not sure
that's going to be much more of the future, but
it was certainly back then.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Well, one of the things that my government experience taught me.
You know, there are people in it had been in
certain roles for departments for ten, fifteen, twenty years and
they had organizational the organizational history and were able to
you know, you'd ask them a question and they go, well,
(04:50):
five years ago we did this, and six years ago
we did that. So powerful and so my last role,
well second last role was I was in the run
one job for seven years. But people would ask me
a question. I go, oh, you need to speak to
so and so, you need to do this. And so
there's a lot to a lot of general counselors and
heads of legal I work with have been in those roles,
(05:12):
you know, for a big chunk of time, and they
are just so valuable.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, necess because they very very much corporate knowledge.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah I p So what did you do from a
union perspective though? And tell people along and know what
did you what degree did you do? What was your
study before you got into the ge For example.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So I actually want to be a journalist, So I
studied literature and political science and Australia and the United
States and came back and I did I actually did
start my career in journalism, so freelancing before moving into
communication roles, and it was community. It was when you're
in these media management, communication roles, advisory roles. I looked
(05:53):
across I was working with marketers and they have a
really marketers have a great way of organizing themselves, like
linking a vision, objective, strategy, tactics, and so I thought,
I want to learn how to do that, and so
I completed the Masters and Marketing and it was really
the combination of communications and marketing skills which led me
(06:17):
to KPMG because I went in and was in these
pursuit roles where you run large proposals and so you're
around packaging opp ideas and vose propositions.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, that's that's incredible. I actually didn't know the background
and you did that when you're looking to do journalism
first off, so amazing what you're sometimes doing UNI and
where you actually end up. And I like your step
along the way. We went back and did the marketing
element as well, when you when you discovered some interest
in that. It's one of the things I always say
to people. You know, passion comes after action, right, so
(06:52):
or in other way, action proceeds passion. You can't actually
get passionate about something will work out something you want
to do more of unless you actually do something and
take some sort of action, which is clear example of
what you did. Then. So let's move forward. So you've done,
You're going to go on my journalist. You got into that,
got into the space, you did, G did government. Did
a long, long, stitting career started the age of twelve.
(07:14):
Of course you did your degree when you were five,
which is amazing. They're working this back in way, well,
it's very smart. Then seventeen years at KPMG and then
you went and joined essentially a business. Now is this
would be plexus where you started with them? Was it
in like a What attracted you to leave KPMG and
moved to something to do something different?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
There's always push pull factors, right. So I came back
from overseas, done lots of interesting things, and John rejoined
the Australian practice and it was a sense of going
back was not forwards, So doing the same things that
I've been doing before. And I remember bumping into someone
in the lift in Sydney and they said the KPg
(07:57):
and they said, how which have you been on leave?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I haven't seen you for a while. We've been out
of the country for seven years. Seven years.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Obsely he made a big impression in their life, but
it was the sense of, OK, I think of I.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Think I need to do something different.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
And so I caught up with a made of mine
who ran a run an equipment company and I said, listen,
I wanted I wanted to build out some technologies. I've
got some ideas around that. And he said, well, you
know you're not a technologist by trade. You know you've consulted,
but wouldn't it make sense for you to actually join
(08:34):
a technology business and understand, you know, how solutions work
from inside surrounded by smart people. I said, yeah, that
does probably make sense and he said, well, great, have.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I got the job for you? And so yeah, yeah,
I got played.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
But he was right.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I said, Plexus, there's wonderful business. And Andrew Mallett, the CEO,
focused in on improving the law, specifically in house legal
teams and providing two ways, one us through seconded resources,
so helping them manage the workflows through that flexible resource pool,
(09:15):
but also through legal technology and their gateway solution, which
I got visibility of and really understood it from an
in house legal perspective and that was super helpful. But
the thing that Andy mainly got me to focus in
on was there to common business. So I ran that
for quite a few years and we did really well,
(09:37):
and ultimately the decision was made to sell that business
to enable the technology business to flourish, and so I
was involved in that process, which is how we ended
up moving to Axiom in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Tell me a little bit about the seventeen years at KPMG.
Obviously had a lot of euro very successful there. You
decided to move to you joined Plexus though, which was
and having you know, I'm not met any maillet, but
I've read a lot of new stuff and seen the
way he operates, and I've caught up with you a
number of times when you were at Plexus. But take
it through. What was the difference in terms of the
(10:15):
way that that that and he ran that business and
being a much smaller business of course, what was the
big differences between the why you were doing things the
KPMG and the way that Plexus ran.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
So KPMG uh had so there was so much support,
so much capacity for help, right and those and beautiful
locations and buildings and the ability to travel well. But
in the startup environment you've got to be laying maine
fighting machine and so you had to as a kind
(10:52):
of seeing a person really operate independently and self manage
and self help. So that that's probably the biggest difference.
You just have to get on with it. But the
other big difference is if you can convince the CEO
to do something. In a startup environment, it gets done right,
where in a larger business often it's about creating a
(11:15):
coalition of the willing and so selling in an idea
that others can benefit from. But that's that can be
a slower process. It should be a slow process. So
it's just the speed of action. You can be super
innovative in a small startup environment for sure, and that's
exciting because you can you can get things done.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, And I think the other I think that definitely
that can work and get things done quickly if if
it's a good idea. The other thing, though, which you
don't have in that startup environment, you don't have that
KPMG brand that you go in with. You've got you
coming in with. Who are you again? Where do you get.
You know, they're kind of really going back that original
sort of sales thing of who are you, what do
you do? And why does it matter? There's three great
(11:58):
questions and I remember, I'm picking your brain a bit,
if I remember, you guys getting really good at that
and being that real value proposition about being able to
quickly get to get to the right people and be
able to give you value proposition really quickly. That was
something Andy drove. If I remember, it was quite specific
about how you did that.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So yeah, the superpower of that business was really about
engaging the client base and just getting meetings, just meeting people,
having people want to meet you, yeah, and then wanting
to meet you again because they had a really great
outcome in terms of, you know, there are conversations they're
(12:41):
having with you, and so one hundred percent correct, Rob.
It's a lot tougher when you don't have a big
brand behind you with the assumptions of the value that
that that organization is going to bring to a conversation
and you have to jump on the phone and convince
someone that it's worth catching up and you know quickly.
(13:03):
So that that was a skill and you know, They've
got a whole methodology around that, and it was just
a fantastic learning opportunity.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, it was really about remember you talk about again
on the phone, and be able to get get meetings.
I think that's a really great one. But then being
able to sort of almost challenge and bring insights straight
away to that person you're talking to who is probably
not hurting you, not really know what you got value
proposition is able to bring something that kind of shook
their world a little bit to go, Jesus, guys are
worth taking a meeting with. It's as really the game,
(13:33):
wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, And you know you know sales strategy as well
as anyone. You know, you're up of subject matter expert.
But I was Millerheimann trained at KPMG and it was
the challenger model at ACCESS. And what's brilliant about the
Challenger system is it's really, as you say, it's it's
going in with a hypothesis about what their big issues
(13:56):
are likely to be. You know, the challenge is opportunities
and if you do that really well, you're actually inside
that person's head. And it so fast backs the whole
process of saying, well, you know, how can I help, well,
you embed the answer is really understand their business super
(14:17):
well and then yeah, everyone's time poor, right, And so
you can fast track to that and say look, I
think these could be your areas of focus for you
and they go yeah, actually you bang on. Then you
can have brilliant follow up conversations.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah. I love that fact. You know, it's really weird
because I used to teach. I was thinking back on
my old sales strategy workshops I ran back in about
twenty ten, and they're all full of Challenger and they're
actually in Millerhearmon workshops goes because I love the challenger
model that's CB built around the five different salespeople, and
it used to shock people. I don't put the five
up and I'd say, you know, the one in a
(14:51):
tough market, the one that actually die and falls away
is the relationship builder. And people go, what has it happened?
And I'm like, well, because they're just they're not really
adding a lot of value and in a tight session
around like we hate, especially over seas. More said in
Australia around two thousand and eight thousand and nine. I
mean relationship doing it was nice, but they're actually to
get a deal over the line, and so you have
(15:12):
to bring insight and understanding. And so I've always that's
the way I've always sold anyway, because I just think,
why would you waste someone's time without if you can't
bring them some insight or some real questions. And I
think a lot of the background behind the challenging salesperson,
which then obviously became a methodology, was around just being
super curious, right, just being really curious about how do
(15:34):
you make money and why are you doing it this way?
And if it's thought about doing it that way? And
I have always done that, but I've come to realize
this lot it's just me. Not everybody actually does that.
You do it, and you do as well. We've always
gone so well, but I think when people you're super curious,
so we have to be is just make assumptions and go,
(15:54):
you know, actually, I've seen this business doing something different.
How come you guys don't do that? That's like that's going.
I know your business so well that I've looked at
another one that's similar, and you, guys, there's an opportunity
missing out on all. That's the problem that actually you
could solve that you're not solving or did you know that?
And you just bring that kind of interest interest and
sometimes it lands, and most times it does. Sometimes they're
(16:16):
ready to do something, sometimes they're they're not. And I
think I've found definitely the startup businesses that I was
involved at, even previous to you and I again together
and it was a couple of the eyes. I was
in a big ic P startup and that was it.
You just had to be able to get the kind
of you had to get to the get cut to
the quick pretty pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Great conversations. I was about great questions. I ran a
client insights program for Kpingjury across the Middle East and
South Asia, and I go out and meet a whole
lot of CEOs and managing directors, and I had a
formula of questions that I would post to them, and
primarily because I can then at the back end of
(16:58):
that extrapolate out some general observations about the market because
you can quantify it.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
But I would ask.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
These questions and often they give quite a technical answer
that I was not knowledgeable enough to unpack, and so
I would just sit there in silence, you try and
understand what they just said, and they would fill the space,
(17:29):
you know, the concept of golden silence. And then they
would keep going and I realized, oh, these people don't
they don't actually get listened to very often. They're only
isolated roles. They're deeply intellectual and being prodded that way,
can actually really think, you know, have the headspace to
(17:53):
really think about their business. And so I came out
some of those conversations where people are like, I really
appreciated what you had to say. That was fun, that
was really good, and I thought, but I didn't say.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
What I did was give them the opportunity to share.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And you know, I have a foot in two camps.
I love the Millerheim and that the ability to focus
on Montame relationships because you know, that's my inner marketing
you know, probably in a marketing soul coming through there,
which is about focus on developing your client base. That's
(18:30):
where my business is going to come from. And perhaps
that's a KPMG torurism as well. But but I blended
at with with the my basics experience, which is that's
all well and good, but you need to actually go
and meet new people. You've got to get outside the walls,
right and and and then if you're going to do that,
then you've got to have something compelling to say, and
(18:51):
you need how to close it close deals.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, no, it's exactly right. In fact, if you're telling
your book yourselves, exactly one of the points that the
authors make it is say, hey, we're not I don't,
she said, as they just have it with a point like,
can get outside and meet you people, bring some insight
to it, you know. So it's a good point to make.
In chapter one You Revived Me, there was a consultant
colleague of a colleague of mine many years ago, was
(19:13):
got introduced to another person, other CEO. So he's working
with a CEO, and the other CEO said, the guy
you should meet. He's expanding his business. Blah blah blah.
I think you guys can get on well. So he
takes this meeting with this other CEO referred in and
this CEO is just deep diving, deep diving, and my
colleague is going, I don't know why I'm here. I
actually can't respond to anything this guy's saying. He's like,
(19:37):
so deep, so so deep in the weeds. I don't
know what to say. And he's thinking to himself, God,
this was great the meeting, but I just don't think
there's anything for me here, and maybe we should wind
this up. And as he at the end of forty
five minutes, he really hasn't contributed very much at all.
He literally was about to get out of his seat
and say, hey, great to me. I'm glad we got connected,
(19:57):
but look, nothing really here. But if something comes up
around these areas, feel free to reach out to me.
He's literally about to say that you got the CEO. Guys, Hey,
great meeting. I really enjoyed the discussion. It was very valid.
It allowed me to kind of think about a few
things which I haven't had and you know, the bandwidth
to do. I sense a real connection with This is
a couple of projects I'd like you to get started
(20:18):
on in the next month. If you've got availability. Let
me introduce you a couple of my team. Would you
be okay to go? And my colleague goes absolutely ready
to start, he said if I hadn't got his word,
and he was about to exit, but and again he
said the same thing that he realized that this CEO
and again, this is very true. And you at the CERN,
your leaders, A lot of people just coming through the
(20:39):
door going sign that do this. I've got a problem here?
Can you fix that bit? Over there? Very very little
the people come in and go ask a good, insightful question,
which you clearly did at the start, and then let
them go and listen with intent. Now, you can't downplay
this thing. I didn't much to say it. I will
guarantee you that you were using great physiology in terms
(20:59):
of adding agreeing, you know, maybe taking a few notes
that allow the other person to go, hey, just someone's
genuinely listening to me, which you would have been doing
because I know you well enough. That's a real skill
in itself, even though your head might have been going, God,
I don't know where guy's going with this, or I
can't I'm not sure I can actually come back with
a really good answer. The fact that you could actually
listen with intent is an amazing skill and people it's underrated.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, we're in total agreement.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, now let's talk about so you do really well
at Plexus you exit out of that. I think it
took a small break from that and then but I
wanted to ask one question because you did the consulting
stuff and Plexus was very much about the legal profession
and your new businesses. About the legal profession, What do
you love about the legal profession?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It's boring old answer, but it's people. Of course, lawyers
can be quirky, they can be demanding, but they can
also so be just an absolute delight to work with.
And so I've loved my exposure to the law and
it goes back to maybe a bit of the KPMG thing.
(22:10):
Super smart, hard working, driven people who you know, want
to make the world a better place. And so yeah,
it's been fantastic.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I love I love what you just said. I think
that's surprising. I think people who are listening will be
surprised the way you actually said that I love the
legal profession because it's because of the people and the
people and just the things you said there. So that
would be probably revelation to what the profession kind of
puts out like it doesn't appear to be like a
real people orientated area. And also people wanting to make
the play the world a better place. I actually think
(22:41):
that's true. So I'm really it's amazing that that's one
of the reasons that you like to me, you come
across that, you come across them often like that.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I can have a bit of a you know, a
frustrating morning and then jump into a meeting with you
one of my clients and just my way just so
pumped up.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
That's right, Yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
We've been able to help them, or you know, just
listening to what they're focusing and on and what they're
trying to do.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And no, no, no, a hundred Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Maybe there is some cynicism about the law, but it's
it's totally unfounded because people who you think about what
they're training, what attracted a lawyer to go in to
go through the pain of completing their degree and going
through the training.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
For most people, they genuinely see.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
It as a pathway to making business, business world better, smarter,
more effective.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And that comes through the people I work with all
the time.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, that's brilliant. And I also think it's a great
bit like accounting in many ways, doing a law degree
this can also set you up for so many things.
I've known so many people who are doing different different
things in their lives now came off the back end
of law and the great people like the great people,
and they practiced for a while or or in corporate
or in private practice, and they've gone done different things.
(24:09):
So it's one of these great bases. Now tell me
about the startup. So you left, you had a bit
of a break, you came back. What then inspired you
to go, Hey, you know what, I want to start
my own business and you're going to start Clara, tell
me about that process.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I think I was always edging there, so meaning the
shift from KPMG to Plexus was about having the having
more freedom to do things. But even in working for
Plexus and then accidom Law, I still have bosses and
(24:48):
so you know, I thought, oh, man, if I had
my own business, I could be as super innovative and
even more helpful to my client base. Actually, how all
these amazing ideas right? And so that was really the
big driver. It was just the freedom.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I think.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
The second thing to say is just the commercial opportunity,
particularly in twenty twenty five, as we you know, transition
into an ali power world. You want to be you
want to have some sort of control over your destiny, yes,
and the best way to do that is to run
(25:29):
your own business. In my mind, particularly if you can
find a niche and you can do something that you know,
fill a gap that and do it better than everyone else.
And so and I had experienced what it looks like
to sell a business get their commercials of that. Yeah,
so you know I think they were you know, they're
(25:52):
the two reasons. It was the freedom to really create
something that the market that by clients need.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, and then the commercial upside.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, fantastic. So tell us, Yeah, elevated pitch. Now Claro
what does it do? What it exists for?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So so so Clario actually is Latin for clarity.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
It means you know, and we we see.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Ourselves bringing clarity to in house legal teams around how
they resource themselves, but also how they leverage technology to
deliver even more value to their business. So we're a
secondment business. That's what we're knowing from the market, meaning
we provide lawyers to fill gaps, you know, to special projects,
(26:43):
skill sets that they don't have on a temporary basis.
We also recruit and we are legal consultants. And the
legal consulting side is around this AI transition. And it
was you know, I spoke to over one hundred general
account and heads of legal before launching the business. Yeah,
and it was just in the spirit of you know,
(27:05):
how can I help what's you know, what's not out
there that's helping you? And it was it was this
AI journey that just popped up again and again and again,
and so they were saying, you know, where do I start?
How do I integrate it into my legacy systems? You know,
can you how can you guide my team? And so
(27:25):
that's the third element about business and probably the most
exciting part of it.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I was going to say, is that part would be
the fastest growing I imagine of your business.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I think one hundred percent it is. It's the conversations.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Nine out of ten people I speak to will want
to launch into that conversation.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yeah, what specifically are they wanting to know from it?
Is it about what is AI? Or how fast is
it going? Or where do you are? They asking questions
where do you see it being the best fit inside
their practice?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, you can't go to a conference now without there
being some section devoted to AI and that the influence
is going to have over the industry. But often those
conversations could be quite high level and motherhooding, yes, sort
of going down a level and saying, okay, great, well
but where what do you mean what specypically can this
(28:23):
do in terms of my team and our legal output.
And so it's it's it's that's really the conversation that
people are looking for help help with most you know,
if I think about most people I speak to, they
probably fit in three camps. One would be it's all
hype and don't see it playing a significant.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Role in what I do.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
I'm an advisor, you know, by bring judgment, you very
bespoken matters. I don't have, you know, millions of contracts
to turn out. Another group would be uh, yeah, no, no,
we get it. But I've got these, you know, I
already have legal technology, invested a lot of money, resource
(29:09):
and political capital to develop that. And so they're trying
to work out, well, where's the gaps and how can
I help and how do we integrate that? I mean,
the third group would be uninhibited, inhibited by legacy technologies
have been really open, right, So they're.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Trying to say, well, great, where do I start?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
And uh and so probably they're you know that that's
the cohort. Well, that that is probably the cohort where
I'm most excited about having conversations.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
It's going to be so easy for them to jump in.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, and they're also I think open to it as well.
Even in your first example you gave that I actually
think that is exactly where I am going to play
a space, you know, if you're just thinking, you're you know,
you're doing judgments and based on history, and yeah, I
think AI very quickly. Well, we're seeing how far it's
moving now. I definitely think it's a space. I think
(30:04):
one of the other areas we're going to ask you about
with the legal profession, there's been a number of cases
where we've seen AI go wrong in the legal profession,
where they've either abused the privilege a little bit, our source,
our source to some of the some things to AI
and AI have not got it right or has doubled up.
And I've seen AI and contracts not doing so well.
We've seen I think some cases in front of you
(30:25):
with judgments and the like where AI has been called
out that the firm used AI. Have you seen things
like that where they've not quite got it right.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Well, we've read, we've all read about them, so I
personally no, I haven't.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
But in terms of.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's natural for our profession to think about the risk
the downside, you know, because the responsibility of in how
legal teams is to protect the create the railguards, the
safeguards for the business operate without issues around data integrity
and privacy and misinformation.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
So it's right that we focus in on that.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Yeah, but I think the challenge with this technology is
it's just a speed off growth.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And you know it, it's mind boggling.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
So so so what you utilize six months ago compared
to today and what's likely to be available to us
in six months time, right, it's.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
It's it's very hard to get your head around that.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
So the the idea that you know that that that
AI is going to be problematic and create create all
these areas that you're going to have to check and
double check, I think is is it is not going
to be the case going forward. We're not to the
same degree, and I think that the challenge you'll always
(31:55):
need to check and double check and have processes around things.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I'm not suggesting you don't do that.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
But the upside the value, Yeah, it's just it will
it will transform the way legal services are going to
be delivered.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah. No, I agree with you, and I think that
some of the breakthrough stuff even you know that you
would have probably seen the tweet about what this about
Chuck GBT five last week when it was asked the
question and the user posted this, I think got x
and he said that he asked this question. They didn't
put the question what the question was. It would have
been interesting to know what that was, but it didn't
(32:33):
post a question and reasonable question, and it actually paused
for thirty thirty four seconds and then came back with
the answer, I'm not sure I can help you with
this one. This is probably beyond what I can do.
That's like an absolute first. It all is usually hallucination.
I'll come back with something of some description, then ask
you for more guidance. And so it got a bit
(32:53):
of attention that it actually started to think and go,
you know what, how to look around? And that question
you asked me was pretty good And no, I actually
can't help you that. That's almost getting the point about
self correction, that's what. And I think your point about
what we're seeing now, that what we're going to see
in six months is going to be vastly different. And
I couldn't agree more. And that makes it hard to plan, that,
doesn't it? Do you find some clients then go, actually,
(33:14):
it's just hold back or we're just they're just kind
of a watching brief.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I think most most people are very early on in
their journey, and so they're grappling with those fears and concerns,
but also trying and understand how it can help. But
most most people, like the vast majority, And that's a
great example you gave. We have a close working relationship
with Pathfinder, which is an organization that really helps organizations
(33:44):
in bed IIH powered technologies, and they do that by
by trying one of these amazing discovery workshops where they
get think people thinking about the problems they're trying to
solve and how A can help and educate them on.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
But yeah, there's CEO gave.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
That example recently about how previously touch BT would say yep,
his answer, where you know it's transitioning to saying, well,
he's an answer, but it could also there's some nuance
to it, yes and uh, and then you know it
will go further and say, I've got maybe that's a
very difficult question to answer, and yeah, here's some things
(34:25):
for you to explore.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
But he also said, you know, prompt it.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Yeah, so except yeah, it's almost like a dialog and
so it's okay, Ah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Go deeper. Yeah, well that's that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Explore this, yes, and it's it's that educating ourselves around
being but prompt.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Is and that's that's where the real skill is going
to be.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with you. And it's
really fascinating. I'll be running a few few workshops with
with some with some clients SUFFICI in the banking space.
It's really interesting. If I've got multi generations in my
in my group and you be familiar with this, and
we were talking about value propositions and like and actually
generating like a like a BBR you know, velid business
reason a way to kick off a meeting, things like this,
(35:08):
And we're just working out industry trends and doing that
challenge type, you know, question what would be what's one
we could use? And it's really fascinating the gens. The
first thing I do is open up the laptop and
bang onto copile perplexity and I've got the boomers on
the other side of the room and got the flip
chat up, be going. Can I recoon this one worked? Fascinate.
I'm just looking at the voter, isn't it right? And
(35:28):
so what was interesting in the gen Z that they
came up with a couple of ideas which they clearly
you they're off off copolant and I encourage that they
and I read it out to him. This is my
co pilot said what do you reckon? Ro And I go,
it's not impressive at all, right, and this is a
great by note quite well, so very open to be challenged.
I said, that doesn't impress me that one. And so
(35:51):
they literally went straight back to cope and go, this
doesn't impress at all. And then co pilot came up
with a rapper. So it's like that the promises you said,
I just took you. I just took your prompt because that, yeah,
it just impress it at all.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Like this part, we knew each other improve his lives.
But you know I used to do sales training at
one point. Yes, yes, heartners, And I don't know how
it go about it now because people were in fact
checking you in the moment and you know, be on
(36:25):
their phones and you know, cross referencing things.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It would be very difficult. It'd be very difficult.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
I think about all the different professions where yeah I
can help, but it can also undermined you in a small.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
In some ways, yes, but in some way I find it.
I find it an absolute bonus for sales training because
what it does and it should do, and it's still
not quite there yet is really take a lot of
the hack and the grindworkout. So I assuely if you're
thinking about you want to research a client, you know
you can now become a student of the industry and
a student of a client very quickly in terms of
(37:01):
the trends are affecting them, what the market's doing, what
business is doing. Really, you can get that stuff up
there now. The art is in how you translate that
into a vber like a valid business reason to kick
off a meeting, what your next line of questions will be,
or how do you get their attention in the first place,
because without attention you can't educate, right, So it's the
old I eat a thing without If you got attention,
then I've got Then I can educate and then I
(37:23):
can make it, make a change. So how do you
get their attention? How do you get them that that
stuff we talked about earlier. When you're in a startup, well,
AI allows you to do you good if you know
to use AI. You know, they use the prompts to
your point. You can get really quickly to the another
of it, which is what this team was doing. And
it was just fascinating thing the two how the two
groups went about it right, and the Boomers were like
literally writing it up. And I said, that's interesting. Let
(37:44):
us have discover this group first. And I said, how
did you go about this exercise? And they said, is
how this is how we use copile And the other
group were like, ah, god, we never thought about copile.
That's the big win in One of the wins of
that meeting that I did of sales training I did
was the fact that opening up the fact that AI
to a whole group of people whose natural first place
wasn't the go to AI, whereas the gen z is
(38:06):
their first place was to go to AI.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
What we're drilling into here is learning pathways.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
The people who are going to benefit the mast from
these technologies are going to be those who are open
and curious to use your word and can invest and
have the time to invest in themselves. So one of
the things that I was really fortunate to do when
I finished with the accident business, I took nearly twelve
(38:33):
months off travel the world and had some wonderful adventures,
but I also took time out to really tool and
to learn a lot, and so it was an incredible
luxury that I need to thank my mortgage for funding.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
But it.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Was definitely it's been a strategic advantage for me. So
I think that the challenge is how do you keep learning?
Because all the people I work with are incredibly busy, uh,
and how do they carve out time for themselves?
Speaker 2 (39:10):
That's that's that's a channel. And then I think that's
what they've got, But that's what they've got to do.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
They've got to do it, And I think that's exactly right.
So what you've got to do there. I love the
fact you did that. So you you took some time
out and you retooled, and you have a bit more
ability to go and do that and take more time
to do it. But the reality of it is everything.
If we're intentional about something, we get it done as humans.
And you just got to say, I've got to be
intentional about retooling. I've got to be intentional about unlearning
(39:38):
and relearning. If it becomes intentional, then you will carve
out time for it. And so you look at anyone
who's successful in anything they do, from sport to business,
to building businesses to being to get mastered over crafting.
As they work for a corporate, they carve out time.
They're intentional about carving that time out. It doesn't get interrupted,
it doesn't get rolled over, it doesn't get distracted, it
(40:01):
gets done. And so as I say, what gets measure
gets done, put some goals in there. But yeah, you're
exactly right. You have to be intentional about carving that
time out. One of the leadership gurus i've worked with,
John Maxwell in the US, calls it the magic of margin,
and it's a really interesting concept. And one of these
is that you have your bau stuff you're doing all
the time, like we all do, that takes up a
(40:21):
chunk of your life, and especially if you get in
the leadership positions, you have this time you carve out
for yourself. Well you're not. Actually that's actually not margin.
That's just stuff that you need to do to get
to do your job. And you need to do it
where the buck stops with you. And it doesn't matter
if you're a u Uri or Richard Branson. There's just
some stuff that you and I have to do and
only we can do. You've got to carve out time out.
So BAU you have your own, you have personal leader.
(40:44):
Time margin is on top of that. And the difference
is that is that margin is basically is all the
areas of what you can do in your life. So
if you're doing, if your whole whole capability is full,
if your BAU is completely full to the brim, you
have no time to margin, you have no time for yourself.
That's a fast track to burnout, right. So the building
(41:06):
is to carve out his BOU his lead of time.
But he's look about ten percent at the top, which
is for retooling, for being more strategic. And it can
be as simple as you take thirty minutes in the
morning when you have your coffee on your own you're
doing some retooling. There can be some time on the
weekend you carve out yourself. It doesn't matter. It's very
personal the way people do it. Sometimes it's actually a
train trip. They carve out that particular time. We get
(41:27):
the headphones in, but it's dedicated for the retooling, which
you did but actually took it had some great chunk
of time to dedicate to it. But it's the same concept.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Are the most successful people I know invest in themselves?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, I made of mine sold to business recently for
one hundred and fifty million dollars.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Which is a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yes, nice change.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
And so I spent some time with him and his buddies,
who are also really super successful people. And it reminds
me of the quote from the entrepreneur John Hone who said,
you are the average of the five people you spend
most of your time with. So I went on a
golfing trip with these guys and they are They were
all sort of thinking the same way, which is, how
(42:16):
do I improve myself? How do I help people around me?
And there's still learning and these guys are all in
their fifties and sixties, and I found that so inspiring.
So I mean the other thing, I was caught up
with a health coach and I was saying, oh, I'm
(42:39):
not disciplined enough.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I need to work hard to get fitter.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
And he said, oh, it's not disciplined, it's that you
don't you don't value yourself enough, and so you're not
You think it's more important to run the kids to
school or you know, whatever, whatever else you're doing, rather
than spending an hour you know, in the more in getting.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I thought, yeah, that's really that's it. That's fair.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
And so prioritizing your own learning is really about saying
I am important and if I do this, I'll be
able to make a better contribution to the business.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yeah, and a bit of contribution to yourself. And I
think the other point you said your buddies made the
point was they wanted to keep learning, and also they
wanted to keep growing other people as well, growing themselves
and growing others. And I think that's also helps us.
As we get better and retool and relearn, we're actually
more used for other other people, even though even those
who are closest to us as well. So I think
it's a good point. Hey, speaking of people who are
(43:38):
close to us, you've gone into business with your wife,
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (43:43):
I have?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Now? That's now, that's now we're taking to a new
level and discussion. Tell me how that came about and
how did that and how's that working? Do you have
any ground rules? And I'm keen to understand a bit
more about that.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
So how did it happen? Uh?
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Well, we Tracy, my beautiful wife. And I walked the
commune to Santiego last year and on it she said,
we're talking about this business and she said, I'd love
to help.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Now.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
She's a heavy hitter in her own right. She was
the managing director of a market research firm. She had
senior roles with Eddie Wise, she was the Australian Trade
representative to cut her and and yeah, definitely could help
the business. And so we you know, she's come on
board to drive client insights. So we want to be
in insights driven business and be able to bring that,
(44:32):
bring great thinking to our client base. And she's so
that's her job. In terms of how it's working out, well,
it's it's it's you know, it's a journey, right, Yeah,
she's We are very collaborative in our how we raise
our four daughters and everything is absolute team orientated. But
(44:53):
we we sort of worked out early on someone has
to actually be in charge of this business.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah you can't and.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
And so I've had to It's funny, I've had to say, well,
look on I'm technically I'm the boss, and so that's
that's a different dynamic. And then we've sort of worked
our way through that and it was funny. So, for example,
I had asked I asked her to do a couple
of things, and I didn't hear back, and I thought, oh,
(45:21):
that's funny because normally when I asked someone who works
for me to do something, they report back.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
And so I.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Ended up I ended up sending you an email and saying, hey,
can you just I'm just following up that thing that
I asked her about, And she responded in really funny way,
she said, Oh, dear mister Kahinga, I'm very I'm very
sorry that.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
We immediately to you know, your request, but we've we've
worked out our democation lines and how to push things forward.
I mean, the other thing I would note if you
have and those who work with family may relate the
challenge of being able to switch off is and anyone
who runs their own business for that matter. So I'm
(46:06):
really good at switching off. And so if I go
to walk walk the dogs every day, I'm not thinking
about work and I'm not talking about work. But when
Tracy joins me, you'll often see it as an opportunity
to say, oh, I've been thinking about this idea about
you know, you've got to keep the source, the source sharp,
(46:27):
and you do that by having time out, by being
able to you know, refresh yourself. And so that's that's
a that's a discipline in itself that we're trying to
work our way through.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, fantastic. I think that's awesome. And you've you've also
run a couple of summits in Sydney and Melbourne. You
did those in person, I think a couple of luncheons
around just over in the last couple of weeks. How
did they go. What was some insights from that? Why'd
you do it? The first of all, because you could
have done it virtually, but you did it in person.
With the valuable experiences for you and your clients.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
We've had some fantastic feedback. So yeah, we had.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Two roundtable lunch and Sydney melbournd up with fifty general
counsels and heads political joined us at those And it
was really to do two things. Firstly, with AI focused
and so yeah, I can talk to you all day long,
but it's really valuable when you hear from your peers
about what they're doing, what their challenges are. And so
(47:29):
it was creating a forum to do that and there's
nothing like face to face.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
I've missed that, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
I feel like it dropped off after COVID and people
just loved it. Loved the ability to actually sit across
from someone and here, what's happening in their life and
what they're focusing in on. The CEO from Pathfinder was
our guest speaker and fabulous subject matter expert and charismatic guy,
(47:57):
and so he really set that conversation up as.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Well, why would we do it? A little bit about
getting back and so.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Helping the industry think about how to embrace these new technologies, but.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Obviously we werented be able to.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Help as well, and so you know, and lean in
and help their businesses where we can, and so you know,
this position us to do that.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, and I think it's really great and interesting. On
the ai wan I firm, I was involved with you
ran a breakfast recently and for a number of senior
leaders a bit similar to what you did, and we're
just talking about the future of work, and of course
I was a key part of that. But what was
really interesting was talking to some of the attendees and
the feedback was I felt so refreshing. I'm not as
(48:44):
far behind as I thought. I was so lifting to
my other peers and we're all kind of in the
same boat, and I was just thinking, oh my god,
everyone's going to be so far ahead of us. I'm
just I think I'm dragging. I'm slow in the business.
I realized that no, everybody's actually working out we should
put in processes. What's the most area of burgency for AI.
We're all in it. And it was just so refreshing.
(49:05):
I'm so actually empowered to go back to my LT
and go, you know what, We're on the right path.
We're doing the right thing where we're you know, we're
doing this, this and this, and I've made some more
contacts and so it was really interesting just to get that.
And I just I think you wouldn't get that in
a virtual environment as well. So doing that in person
to be able to actually talk and then let it
in the session a nice little startup at the start
(49:26):
by us, but then it really took a life of
its own and people were just literally appears to shooting
the breason where they're actually very open and collaborative as well.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, I think the same thing happened for us.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
The conversation was set up, but then it was wonderful
to just watch watch paper brass, questions, make up observations
and everyone's.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Early on in the journey.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Yeah everyone.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Yeah, right, So see the idea of being left behind.
I don't think that's the case in twenty twenty five.
I do think though there's a there's apps logic to
being an early adoptor. Yeah, and I think, yeah, change
can happen to you or you can initiate it. And
if you initiate it, then you have more control over
(50:11):
what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, and you're definitely going to learn more as well.
But this is not there's no silver ball out here,
which some people think. I've seen that. That's a couple
of things I've run into. Its people think it's the
silver ball or the panacea or a problem. It's actually not.
It's a long way to go to that yet. But
you've got to get involved, you know, as I said
to you, you've got to take action first, have a
go find out whether what's what's really urgent or where
(50:34):
you want to play with it, and then play with it.
And there's absolutely will definitely change the way you do things,
and you'll certainly come away learning more for for the
next time, because as you said earlier, it's evolving. Like
what we were, what we're working with now is nothing
like we're going to see in six masks. And I
think it was even Sam melt Wan himself from Open
Aim and he said a point that I think it
was last late last year. He said, Oh, this is
(50:55):
the dumbest a I will ever be, Like what you're
using now is so agricultural to where we'll be in
twelve months or twenty four months. This is just this
is really bad what you're seeing now, but we're all
using it. I can you know, he's the vision where
it's going to go.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
It's it's difficult for humans to get their hand around
exponential growth compared to linear growth, and so we we
we just don't know what it's going to look like, right,
but we and we can't even conceive it. Yeah, and
so it's a bit like you know when the maybile
you first got your mobile phone to what it looks
like now or any technology, and so you know, and
(51:36):
that's exciting. I'm really excited about that, and I know
that a lot of people are as well.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yeah, So absolutely absolutely, Now tell us where can we
people find out a lot more about Clario. How can
we find out more about you and Clario? Where could
people go to?
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Well, I was built out a love little website, so
you know, dump on and Clario dot com DOTU you'll
find us. And so of course we're on LinkedIn and
try and create a presence there, and we'd love to
have conversations about if there's anything we do to help
you resource your team and if you're starting your AI
(52:13):
journey and if there' anything can help you help you
help there.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah, so good, good one. We'll put all that in
the show notes. Richard, fantastic the TEP, this conversation on you.
It would be great, great insights as always, and I
love the journey you're on with your wife as well.
Although you dow the Boss, we made that very clear,
so hopefully.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
In the work on the workfront maybe well you did.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
You did say technically on the Boss, so I think
you gave yourself an out on that one. So yeah,
really great mate, and thanks so much for your time today.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Awesome, Rob, Thanks mate.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the It's All
Possible Podcast. You can contact me at Rob at Rob
Haardner dot com or my website, Robharder dot com, or
on LinkedIn. Remember to check the previous seasons and episodes
of the podcast and the show notes for more details
on this episode's guest. For more inspiration, remember to check
(53:08):
out the All Possibility Players on Spotify, which contains a
collection of upbeat, positive music I use for inspiration in
my live performances. Until next time, live with passion and
a perspective of possibility.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com