March 31, 2025 • 40 mins
Are you a person who needs to influence or persuade? Are you a leader needing to influence your peers? Are you a Start Up leader who needs to persuade people to invest in your idea? May'be you need to lead a change initiative with your team and you to present to your leadership team? In this next episode we discover that presentations that persuade and influence are indeed possible for all of us. The Queen of Presentation and Communication skills is Michelle Bowden CSP (Certified Speaking Professional) and she is my special guest in this new episode.
Michelle is an authority on persuasive presenting in business. She’s a multi-million-dollar pitch coach to her client list that reads like a who’s who of international business: banking and finance, IT, pharmaceutical, retail, telecommunications plus many more. Michelle is the creator of the Persuasion Smart Profile®, a world-first psychological assessment tool that reports on your persuasive strengths and weaknesses at work.
This episode is packed with presentation and communication tips and I took some gold away from Michelle as I am sure you will too.
Michelle can be contacted on LinkedI(https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellebowdenenterprises/)
and all her details are at michellebowden.com.au
Michelle is an authority on persuasive presenting in business. She’s a multi-million-dollar pitch coach to her client list that reads like a who’s who of international business: banking and finance, IT, pharmaceutical, retail, telecommunications plus many more. Michelle is the creator of the Persuasion Smart Profile®, a world-first psychological assessment tool that reports on your persuasive strengths and weaknesses at work.
This episode is packed with presentation and communication tips and I took some gold away from Michelle as I am sure you will too.
Michelle can be contacted on LinkedI(https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellebowdenenterprises/)
and all her details are at michellebowden.com.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartnett, and as your chief Possibility Officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. And I am super pumped, super
pumped today because I've got the Godess, the Queen, the
go to authority for influence communications and presentations in Australia,
(00:50):
the wonderful Michelle Baton.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Michelle.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Welcome to the show, Queen Michelle. Michelle with you today,
well the Prince of Possibility. So I could only to
step you up to Queen Michelle.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Thank you. My kids and all their friends call me
Queen Michelle.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
So there you go. Yeah, you let the kids know
that I'm a hip with it and I definitely got
the I got the Instagram message on it. Now communication
influence persuasion, You've been doing a long time. But where
did that passion come from to help others get better
at it?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, I've always been good at it. Well, let me clarify.
I started shy. I started as a shy child, and
I was very fortunate that I had parents that weren't
into shy, so I had to come out of my
shell from a young age. I was good at debating
and public speaking when I when I was a ballet dancer,
I was in the Camber Youth Ballet Company, so I
(01:48):
was performing on the stage.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And then when I.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Got my first proper corporate job working for lend Lease,
I went to two different presentation skills course there's over
a short period of time, and on both occasions the
person offered me a job, so I realized I must
have been quite good at it. And I didn't end
up taking either of those jobs, but I did work
(02:12):
for one of the top presentation skills companies at the time,
this is like twenty seven or eight years ago, named
more of Fay Workshops, and they used actors in their training,
so I learned a lot that and then I did
set up After working for some other consultancies, I set
up my own company twenty five years ago and in
nineteen ninety nine, and the rest is history.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
The rest is history it ever since. I just believe,
don't you, that it's good to stick to your knitting.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
So I certainly from a consultant's point of view, the
fact that I've stayed in my lane.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
And I haven't really moved out.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Of persuasion and presentation skills, but that whole time, I'm
very happy to refer clients to someone like you if
they need what you offer, and not to just say
I can do everything. So I really have honed my
craft by sticking to my knitting.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I think that's a really good idea too. I do
think that you can vary a little bit a little
parts week sometimes accommodate, but you when someone's looking for
something else, it's far, far, far better credibility and say, hey,
you know what, I know somebody. It's not me, but
I know somebody. Because then when you come, is that
what we cause the broker of strength, which is you know,
I don't know who does this, but Michelle will know.
(03:25):
So I connect with Michelle and it may be you.
It maybe not you, but you at least the phone rings,
isn't it or the email comes in or get a message.
So I think that's a it's a good place to stay.
But you've also done it. But you've done it so well,
and I think, but you've also evolved clearly as well.
Let's talk about that. One of the things about evolving though,
is in the workshops. And you run really good workshops
(03:47):
plus the keynote speaker, but you talk a lot about
the power of generative learning in workshops. You wanted to
just dive into that. What do you mean by yes,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, I learned this concept from my two bosses, which
Robert Scanlon and Rod Matthews, who really showed me how
to be a consultant before I set up my own company.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So that's like twenty six years ago.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And it shocks me to this day, Rob that there
are so many corporate trainers out there that have never
heard of this concept of generative learning. We all know
what experiential learning is. That's where people have an experience.
They're not just sitting there like zombies listening to you
talk at them. They're participating in the learning. Generative learning
(04:33):
takes it that one step further, so you craft an
activity as a trainer that your delegates will participate in
that causes them to have what's known as a referential
index shift.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It's where the.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Activity becomes something that stands as a metaphor for a
moment that they will have in their workplace, in their life. So,
for example, I do an activity in my presentation skills
training course to help people manage their nerves. As you know,
nerves is one of people's biggest fears. It isn't higher
(05:10):
than death, even though that funny saying of Seinfeld is
quite famous, but it is up up there in the
top three. And so I do this generative learning activity
where I get the audience to walk with holding onto
a long stick and they have to focus on areas
of the stick. And in doing that, what they're actually
(05:30):
practicing is what they'll do with their eye contact every
time they're in an presenting to an audience, whether that's
a meeting or a big conference.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Like what we do as keynotes beakers.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
So it generates that connection with the real experience that
they will have in their actual life.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And you know, there's just as it is experiential.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Learning, I think is hard to find, certainly online with
online training, but generative learning doesn't appear to.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Be happening really at all either.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
And that's one of the reasons why people say to me,
your training course was an experience like no other. It's
because they've actually shifted in the training room, which rather
than waiting until they get back to work.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, I would say about that, if they don't shift
in the training room, they're not going to shift when
they get back to work because they've got.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
A coach like you that's helping them monitoring basis.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
That's a leader or a coach who these days generally
it's so busy and they've got their own things on.
Prompting to coach to coach is a whole different conversation.
So I love it. I love generally learning. I love
what how passionate you are. And I think it's a
good observation, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I mean, I work with the client called Salesforce, and
it's really interesting watching their experience. So sometimes in Salesforce
people come along to the training and they fully get it.
We're all different and I'm doing my best with ten
people in the room to have everyone shift the same.
But just you know, that's not always possible. Sometimes though
(07:03):
the person leaves the training and they've misunderstood and that's
a real problem.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
That's a problem, right, tell me more about that stick.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yes, So in the next sales pitch that they do,
they they're like a hand grenade going off doing what
they think is best practiced.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But that's the point of what the technique was.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And Paskforce is really aware of that, and they care
so much about their customers that they've put in systems
and processes in place to make sure that that doesn't happen.
That the people learn the training with me, they do
experience as much of a shift as possible in the
two days, but then they have a whole system that
kicks into place that further enables their people. And you know,
(07:48):
that's a sales focused, customer focused organization. And I really
believe when it comes to good training, that's what all
organizations should be doing.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So are they really are they doing a version of
seventy twenty ten?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
What's that? So?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Seventy twenty ten is is a concept. It's been around
for many, many years. Some people believe in some people
don't actually think it's it's pretty accurate, although it shifted
I think with the pandemic. But I love your view
so seventy percent says seventy percent of the training I'm
going to get my learning is on the job, twenty
percent is from my leader and manager while I'm in
(08:23):
the job, and ten percents in the classroom. Yeah, so
seventy twenty ten if you believe it, it's basically a
culture of learning, which says that it's really important your
managers a train your leaders are changed that we have
six we have coaches that are training how to coach,
how to lead, because they're that really important. Twenty I
think with online learning and the pandemic, it's probably shifted
(08:43):
to probably twenty. Well they get my numbers right now,
probably like probably fifty thirty twenty something like that is
my view, But you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Not numerous, so I'll say that up front. Communications.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But what I do know is that the conversation the
manager has with their staff before they hit the training
room is the most important thing. If the manager doesn't
talk to their team member about what they could improve
and what they think they're already quite good at, they
just don't have that felt need to be in the
training And I can be as amazing as possible, I
(09:18):
just don't quite have that ability to shift that person the.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Way I know I can. I've run my two day.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Master classes we chatting here today one thy and twenty
seven times.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I've run it nearly every.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Week for twenty five years, so I'm pretty good at
shifting people. And I see it every single week that
if the person just turned up because their boss said
you've got to go, we just can't get the outcome.
We have so many processes in place in our company
to make sure that people don't turn up just because
they got told. As you say, managers are busy, leaders
(09:54):
are busy, they sometimes just don't make the time, which
I think.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Is at stake to that's I'm always a big believer
in the exec sponsor. I'm a big believer is coming.
I've literally just come off a call with the client
where we had the exec sponsor on with the people,
people in the culture and leading leading learning team, and
it was fantastic because we're just going through, OK, let's
just confirm who's kicking it off, who's coming, the pre
work's being done, what are we going to check checking
(10:20):
on that? And you just have you just so much
look forward to the gig. You know when you know
that they're taking care and you and I have to
prompt them because they've got lots of things on. I
don't mind doing that, but I think that's, yeah, that's
a really important when I love what Salesforce are doing
and taking that seriously because you can get people haven't
come out of the training and feeling incredibly empowered, just
they're heading off in the wrong direction, which is which
(10:42):
is not great, especially if we're in customer facing sales
related roles, because then the damage is even exponentially.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I'm not kidding.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
It's like a hundred granade going on in the meeting
and everyone's going, what's That's what Michelle told me about.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And so with question on that with sales, So look,
I've always seen sales as a combination three things. Great pride, knowledge,
you've got to know your shit basically customer centricity, and
superb communication skills. And let's been able to convey that
in a way that shifts the customer because sales is
very much about change. Really are communication skills do you
(11:22):
think are essential for today's salespeople?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I think that all of what you said is it.
It's just the distinction within that.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
So when you use the adjective superb communication skills.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I think we all have a different understanding of what
SUPERB might look like.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, good point, And.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So some often people will score themselves on pre work
before they come to my course as confident or advanced
at presentation skills. And my job is not to diminish
their confidence in any way. But there's no way between
you and me and all the listeners here today.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Those people are either competent all right.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
But that's a common trait though, isn't it, Because that's
I mean, that's the dune In Kruger effect, right, Absolutely,
it's totally you know that they think and sometimes they
innocently think and need that mindset shift. There's all leaders
think their amazing leaders, All card drivers think their amazing card.
We rate ourselves much highly than actually what the truth
(12:23):
is until we find out.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yes, that's it.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
So I say, there's three strategic phases to a good
presentation in business, SUPERB to use your word, and the
phases are very simple. Analysis, design, delivery. Analysis is where
you work out what are you trying to achieve, but
importantly also what is your stakeholder, your customer and your
boss whoever you're presenting to what do they need? Yes,
(12:46):
and I teach a very fast five step model that
helps you get right into your audience to shoes and
really think about what is that current state that they're
in and what is your desired state for them. Then
the second phase is the desig phase, and it hasn't
really got much to do with the slides, even though
that's what a lot of people would do their first
(13:07):
to do with the structure of the communication and when
it comes to superb communication, I believe I invented a
model back in two thousand and six called the Persuasion Blueprint,
and it has thirteen linguistic patterns in it that all
do different jobs to make sure that you're pulling your
stakeholder along with you, building rapport with them, managing their objections,
(13:30):
dealing with the facts and the data, running Q and A,
effectively calling them to action, all of the things that
you need to do in a really good business presentation.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And then and.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Then yes, some slides to back that up. And then
the third phase is the delivery phase. So that's all
the things people can think of when you think of
a presentation skills course, stuff like your stance, your gesture,
your movement, your eye contact, your interaction with your audience,
and yes, the three phases.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
And it's so interesting, you know, often come to me.
My boss needs presentation skills.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
He's been given the deck from the comms team, and
so can you just teach him.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
How to breathe better and manage his nerves?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
No, no, because you need to follow all three phases correctly.
And without phase one, phase two and phase three, you're
really you're pushing it uphill, to be honest. But it's
once you learn how to do those three phases. I
fundamentally believe that everyone can be a great business presenter.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You've just got to know what to do and then
do it.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, and I really like that because if you don't
do phase one and someone just gives you a deck
and you've got a presenter, well, you're not going to be
confident you didn't do the deck. You might even think
it's too much. It's not your style, it's not the
way you speak. It is amazing that we still we
still put up with with you know, let me calmind
and help my boss, help my boss do this, this
and this, when we just know it's going to be
(14:56):
a train wreck.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And really I do think we could all take our
communication more seriously, because you know, I've written a book
called How to Persuade, And one of the things that
I know from my research into persuasion is that the
opposite of persuasion is not necessarily a neutral outcome where
you talk, they listen or not, everyone goes home and
(15:21):
we're all good. Actually, when you fail to persuade, when
you muck up the persuasive moment, at the least, the
person can be confused, and at the worst you might
completely have disappointed them, or they might even lose complete
respect for you. Yes, and so actually, it is so
important to make a serious decision to take our communication seriously,
(15:46):
so that even in those unconscious persuasion moments where you
don't even realize that that's what you're doing, you're always
putting your best foot forward.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah. Great, it's a great point. It reminds me of
a reminds me of pitch some clients mine had, and
they were doing this big pitch, and they were a
multinational business, and they had lots of entities and they
were going to bring they felt with this large organization, said,
you know what if you could bring all your entities together.
It could really benefit us. We could buy on scale.
You'd be good for you. Supply chain would be fantastic.
(16:17):
And this person said, look, can you bring to the seller?
Can you bring your team together and present as one? Right?
And so that's what they did, except here's where they
fell down. When they were ready for the pitch. They're
in the room, right, They've got the laptop plugged in.
The slides are awesome. In front of the customer and
(16:37):
all his stakeholders. Right, the selling team came together and
shook hands and greeted each other and said it was
great to see each other for the first time, and
sat down and then said it's great to be here
as one. And they thought they did a fantastic pitch.
(16:58):
They walked out and the by I said, if you
ever do that to me again, I'll throttle you. And
the sealer Hi, and he was telling me the story, said,
he said, what do we do wrong? I had run there.
I organized them all to fly. You know, what do
you think? And he says, you were meeting and greeting
in front of everybody else. You clearly don't know each other.
You're clearing out of line. You clearly don't know what
(17:18):
each business unit does, and you want us to buy that.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
And my.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Person I was talking, he said, oh my god, he said,
I'd never thought of it. He said, how embarrassing. Oh
my god, I cannot believe. So they got the bit
that the analysis right, they got the deck right, but
they hadn't thought through from a customer perspective what the
delivery was going to look like. And they shot themselves
in the thought literally right, you know, right at the
(17:44):
last point. So I think your great point about taking
that seriously is like you know, from soup to nuts,
take it seriously, not just the main course. It's all
what about today's leaders. You're working a lot with leaders.
You've spoken about that, but what are some of the
communication skill gaps you're seeing today? And I'm talking to
(18:06):
maybe over the last couple of years, two or three years, you've.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Noticed, Well, managing conflict is always going to be tough
for people.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Isn't it. You know.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
So there's four main ways we go about persuading that
people around us, and most of us are strong in
two of those ways and weaker in two of those ways.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And why would you care about that?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Because if the communication scenario requires what is currently your strength.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Then you're just going to talk and the person's going
to listen beautifully, and everyone's going to agree, and we're
going to high five, and we're all got we wanted,
and we all leave feeling terrific. If, on the.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Other hand, the communication scenario requires what is currently your weakness,
you simply don't have those skills in your communication toolkit
to say it in the way that the person can
hear it and appreciate it and understand it and approve it.
And that is why sometimes even when you've got a
great idea or feed in sales, you're selling a great
(19:06):
product or service, but the person just seems very stuck
and stubborn. It's because you are using what is your
strength for communication, but actually the stakeholder needs a different approach.
So that is a classic and common problem amongst all humans.
And we did in not just our work life, we
(19:27):
do this in our home life as parents, as partners.
You know, we think again that we forget that we're
actually like your example of the people turning up to
the pitch and greeting each other in front of the client.
There's plenty of times as a parent where you just
your mouth goes without too much preparation in fans, and
(19:49):
you're going to fail in that moment if the person
has a different requirement to you. I mean, the hilarious
thing about persuasion is you're not trying to persuade yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
You are already persuaded. You're trying to to give the
other person what they need.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
So when you have things like change management programs or
a conflict situation, they're often the toughest moments because.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You're trying to say it the right way.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
You've probably got good intentions and you're trying to do
your best. But until you've really thought about what is
it that that stakeholder requires, what style of communication do
they need, and then you've adapted from what is company
for you to what they actually need, that's when you're
going to get what you want. So when I'm working
with pitch teams, we spend a lot of time thinking
(20:38):
about who the stakeholder is and which of the four
types they might be, and how are we going to
change our pitch, How are we going to change things around.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So that they get what they need?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Ye, So I don't think that's you know, you've asked for,
Like a modern day example, I don't think that's a
modern day example.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I think that's been the same forever.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I think it's been Yeah, I think so. It's been
around for a long time, and I've been using the concept.
That's where I bring disk into it. When I'm thinking
about the salespeople and I'm asking them to think about
their own style, but also who are they who are
they going to as a predominant style, because we're all
more than one. But and then think about who else
in your team is a more compatible style or who
could you run it past? Because way haven't you is
(21:20):
your You've made a great point which you're not persuading yourself.
I think that's a ripper. And I use a couple
of things. I'm about change management with people. I use
this acronym called ucop, which is, you know, do they
understand it, did they contribute to it? Do they do
they feel they own it? And can they pass it on?
So because if you don't, if they can't pass it on,
(21:41):
it means they can't get it. And you're off off
thinking well I've communicated to change, I'm now off and
they're like what was that about them? And they talking
amongst themselves. I says, you've probably seen tons of times
like me. You said, all the time where and the
leaders are often going, but everybody's still sitting around going sorry, what.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Was that about? Yeah, yeah, and even at home.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
You know, I was speaking of a lady named Jenny
the other day. He's been married for forty seven years
god and her husband every morning for forty seven years
of her marriage, has made a cup of coffee in
the kitchen and then put his used cup on the
kitchen bench and made a coffee ring on the bench.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And the good old saying of pick your fights, especially
in conflictation.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
So Jenny is every single day for forty seven years
of marriage, Jenny has wiped that coffee ring from the bench,
and on the occasions where she's not there and can't
do it, it's made a stain right the bench.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So now they've got a.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Fork out fifteen thousand dollars to get a new kitchen bench,
which is very irritating to Jenny because if he had
just put his cup straight in the dishwasher or instead
of himself.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And so, you know, you think, you think that it's
a small matter.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
You think the coffee ring on the bench is just
a silly little thing and you just deal with it.
But actually, in relationships, it's often those little things that
end up turning.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
From a snowball into an avalanche.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah, they all add together and then you just really
dislike the person because they irritate you. Great great feeling
that we shouldn't wallow in misery.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
You know, I agree. It's a concept of you've heard
about it called the emptying the cup, which is what
you're doing big key account relationships. Whereas you don't want
the cup to overflow, what happens is the cup overflows
over a simple thing like they were late. There were
ten minutes late for the meeting, and all of a
sudden the accounts now in jeopardy. And it's never about
the ten minutes late for the meeting then going up,
(23:43):
and it's one a clide mine said, you can never
fully empty the cup. If you're talking about big companies
to big companies, there's always a challenge somewhere. But you
can keep the cup about a quarter fall, right, that's it.
When it keeps coming up and up and up, and
then the most trivial thing can you just annoying, annoying, annoying,
and then all of a sudden to your point that
you've never got fifteen hours a problem or in your
kitchen because you haven't nipped it. And I think that
(24:04):
I think that's still going on. I think there's a
bit of that still going on in relationships clearly, but
also I think in large organizations we just kind of
accepted for too long until it becomes that's the norm,
like that's what that's the way, that's what's acceptable around here.
And I think that's the bit that needs needs to stop.
I want to talk about slide design. When you talked
(24:24):
about second ago about slides, I remember, I remember when
I was at HP and we were great users of PowerPoint,
and I remember talking to team members of mine. They said, Rob,
can you come over here and help us with our presentation?
And I said, sure, we are. You're up there. I said, well,
we've got we've got this, we've got that, We've got
ninety slides.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I said, okay, so wow, guys, how long you're going for? Well,
we've got we've got sixty minutes. And I'm like, hang
on a second, how you have you thought about this?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, we're going to move pretty quick and yeah, And
it was the position was they said, but I think
we're ten ten more than a showd I'm like about
forty more issue or fifty ten. Why is that the
heart to go to it?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Maybe that's not the problem, So I'm going to be
contradicial and disagree. So what's happened in the corporate world
is that most people, when they have a presentation to
put together, procrastinate for a while, and then when they
finally get over their procrastination, the first step is they
go to their PowerPoint, download all the odd slides they're
used on that subject matter, put them in some kind.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Of an order, and they work out what they're going
to say right now.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Of course, that's the opposite of the approach that I recommend,
which is do your analysis, then create your script, which
is what some people call a talk track.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And then make your slides. So that's the first point.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
The second point is that what happened was CEOs and
executives want their staff to present to them, to give
them updates and keep them in the loop of what's
going on in the organization. But what is happening is
like you say, they had ninety nine slides in in
sixty minutes, and I remember being working with a pharmaceutical
(26:07):
company some years back now where they had ninety for
investigator meetings with their uptating.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Doctors on the protocols for trials. They had ninety nine
slides in fifteen minutes. Man, it's like that would imagine
how fast you.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Were the battery and your clicker.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So my point is that then what happened was those
busy executives were being harassed by these ninety slides in
sixty minute presentations. So they made hilarious rules like you
can only have three slides. So then people did was
they put seventeen slides worth of content into three slides.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right, it's a five point font right, that's it at
five point fonts and five hundred words.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So you can't read any of it anyway. So I
think we.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Need to all step back from all okay now and
say to ourselves, okay, so what's the in the however
long you've got.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
You've got fifteen minutes, you've got twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
You've got an hour, you've got whatever you've got, what's
what do you want to say?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, first work that out. Where are you trying to
shift them to from where? And to where?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
And then once you've done that and you've got a
really good so I say, there's thirteen linguistic patterns in
a rape script, So get that sorted. And then once
you've done that, then create the slides that reinforce your
key messages for your audience. And that's the distinction. Not
so you remember what to say next. You're in your
own shoes in what we call first position when you're
(27:38):
putting slides together, so you remember what to say next.
The slides are not for you to remember what to
say next. That's what your script is, and that's what
your rehearsal's for. If you're taking this seriously and you
care about your customer, you're only showing slides that reinforce
your point for them so that to your point, they
can then pass it on yes, which is what you
(28:00):
were discussing, because they remember this.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Like I'll give you an example.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
A doctor recently was talking about finding melanoma on the skin.
It can be difficult to locate and people die of
melanoma because their skin check never showed up the melanoma.
So imagine this slide in your mind. Even though you
can't actually see it, you will see it in a minute.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
When I describe it, it was a slide that led
to the edges.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So just a picture right to the very edges of
the most beautiful colored Smarties.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
The little lolly chocolate Lolly that all.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Over, Smarty on top of Smarty, on top of Smarty,
all taking up the whole screen, and one brown Smarty right,
And that's what she was saying. It's difficult to find
that one melanoma on the skin, and you can't even
with my my verbal description of it, you can't unsee that.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
That is what slides are for. They're not for bullet points.
It's not a word processing package. That's what Microsoft word
is for. Yes, it's a graphics package, which is why
camp has become so popular. And the whole idea of
it is that it's got to be undeniable. So I've
got a simple question, but that I'm very famous for
(29:19):
in my course, I say to everyone, for every single
slide in the deck, you've got to ask, is this
the best.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Way to visually reinforce this point?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
And if the answer is no, you need to be
tough on yourself and fix it or delete it and
go to a flip chart or a whiteboard or have
a handout or have supplementary pack like a board paper
that he to a page seventy or the append appendices seventeen.
You know, there's got to be another way if this,
If they can't read it, another one of my famous sayings.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
If you can't read it, don't show it.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So look, I think it is. It's actually common sense,
but we've completely lost the plot.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Well, I think it is in a way, Michelle, as
long as you know that. And I think sometimes it
gets if you're not taught that, you're not taught to
think like that. And asked that question, which was a
great one, which is you know, is this the best
way of explaining it? Or even better than that, is
this the best graphical image or way for them for
them to remember it as an audience man need to
(30:19):
explain it? I think is a really nice way. And
I've got a keynote.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
I'm doing a keynote tomorrow two hours and I think
there's one.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Hundred and twelve slides.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
So it's not about how many slides, it's about what's
on them. And my slides are just flourishing with beauty. Yes, luscious,
you just want to sniff them because I talk about
four birds and in the four persuasive types, and they're
in the jungle, and there'sodendrons and there's beautiful jungles. Well
(30:55):
you know ye, flora and fauna everywhere, and they're just
these beautiful, luscious looking slides. They do break one of
the rules that I set for other people, which is
keep them clean and clear, because they're very flourishing and gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Can I ask your question though, yeah, I don't know,
I know them. But do you recommend builds in slides
or you rather have a brand new slide? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
I do recommend builds. So is this the best way
to visually reinforce his points? Sometimes the answer is yes,
because the senior leader or the client has asked for
that on a slide, and you know better. You know
that that slide's awful, and you know that you're not
going to be able to direct their attention when you
show it. You're worried that the in fact, their eyeballs
(31:41):
will go to the wrong part of the slide, that
before you've even explained what you're trying to sell. So
in that case, yes, you must build it. And the
rule is that you're trying to direct their attention. So
if you just always keep remembering that what do I
want them to be looking at in this moment, and
then you you only build it when it's time for
(32:02):
them to see it. Yes, And particularly in online presentations,
it's so critical that you build it as you discuss
it rather than boomshackle lacker it's all up there, right, Yeah,
because it simply can't direct people's attention when you put
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Up in one go.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah. I think we're leading into a question I had
around emotion. I have a you might not, you might like,
this might not. But when I'm talking with people about communication,
and I said, I always refer to you for this anyway.
But one thing I do say to people is I
use an acronym. It's an acronym. I put it on
the white I put it on the white bollard because
it's easier. Which is just FKD Yes, which is which
(32:42):
is what do you want him to feel? What you
want them to know, and then what you want them
to do? Yes, So I'm getting able to think about that,
which is which is kind of around what's the emotional
kind of connection you want to make? I just use
a bit of humor with it to get the point
across what you talk about the emotional objective and being
clear and your emotional objective?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Can you talk about about that? Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yes, so in relation to that model you teach, I
have a different model, but just a simpler concept to that.
And our minds think, feel, do, which is boring compared
to everyone think it is, so think fielding. So what
are they thinking, feeling and doing and what do you
want them to be feeling and doing? So just taking
out that feel section, which is what you're talking about here,
(33:23):
I would say, what is the emotional journey that Because
good speakers, whether you're a keynote speaker, whether you're a salesperson,
whether you're a leader, whether you're just a team member
who's doing an update to everybody, so they get excited
about the project, what is the emotional journey that you
want them to go on? And good speakers do this.
So yes, For example, you might want them to be
(33:44):
comfortable that we're meeting today, and then you want them
to feel concerned that there's an issue that hasn't been
resolved yet, and then you want them to feel worried
that it hasn't been resolved yet. And then you want
them to feel hope that there could be a solution
and that maybe you can solve it for them. And
(34:05):
then you want them to feel what's an example, Then
you want them to feel convinced that, in fact, you
do have that solution, then relieved that you've got the solution,
and because of that relief, then compelled to take the
action you require, and then really.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Pleased that you had the meeting, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
So you imagine the journey that and when you want
people to go on an emotional journey, it's called the
emotional objective in presentation skills. When you want them to
go on that journey, it's very important that you use
those words at that moment in your script or your
talk track. And you can be clever about this so
you can get it into the slides, or you can
(34:47):
just remember that in that moment, you've got to use
those words, and you've also got to feel it yourself.
If you don't feel worried for them, then they can't.
They won't feel as worried and sincerely worried, not faking it,
not pretending, but being authentically concerned for the fact that
(35:10):
their issue hasn't been resolved is going to cause your
You know, often people come to me and they say,
I need body language training, and there's people other than
me that are better at that than me. But what
I often say to people is you don't need body
language training. If you're clear on your emotional objective, your
body language is.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Going to do exactly what it's meant to do in.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
An authentic way that is very believable and compelling. When
you're worried, your face grimaces, your borrowed furrows, you know,
your eyes become smaller and more direct, the eye contacts
more direct. You know, there's just things and hunt your
shoulders and you do things physically, and when you're joyful,
(35:54):
you open and your eyebrows go up, and your eyes
pop more and small comes out and your cheeks lift.
There's things that just naturally happen when so rather than
sort of fake gestures in body language that you know,
you learn from some presentation trainer that that was the
thing to do in that moment. Actually, I'm a bit
more of a fan of, well, what's your point and
(36:16):
how do you want them to feel? If you think
more about them, then it'll be more authentic.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, I really I really like that. That's a great
way thinking about it. I had a question for you.
I was thinking about your twenty five years I'm doing
this business. Tell me that have you ever I was
thinking about it. This is in the car, and I said,
can I ask you this question? Tell me about a
couple of interesting or crazy venues you've presented in that
(36:42):
were just not what you expected.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Have you ever had that? Of course I have.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I've had to work with clients all over Australia and
you know I've run courses outside.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I remember running a course at the Melbourne Zoo one
time one hundred years ago and a lion escaped and
so we were all evacuated in forty one degree heat
and I had to finish running the day on the
pavement outside the front entrance to the zoo.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
And I've worked in all sorts of rural locations where
the only venue is a very dirty pub. Because I'm
so about the prep and making sure that everything's perfect.
I have quite quite an attention to detail about the
way I open had my flip charts on the wall.
(37:37):
They're very symmetrical and perfect. So yeah, some of those
things have definitely shifted me outside of my comfort zone,
but nothing too dramatic.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, but the fact you thought you I had a
couple as exciting as the focus escaped lion. That's absolutely classic.
So look a couple of things just before we wind
up and now were short on time. Where can people
find out more about you? Where we go?
Speaker 3 (38:01):
I have a website which is my name www dot
Michellebowden dot com dot au.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Now the first part not your name, that'ss www, but
that's Michelle Baden. I just want to be clarified.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
That's it www and also LinkedIn. Love to connect on
LinkedIn fantastic. I post almost every day free content on LinkedIn.
That's a really good place for me.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Now, your website is brilliant. Can I just say that
because I love the blog, Because you're blogging as well
on there, you're blogging in there, You've got plenty of resources.
I just I think it's one of the best websites.
So if you're listening, I want to get up up
the speed on presentation skills and just understand some more
of what we've been talking about today and understand more
about Michelle. Go to Michelle Baden dot com. Do you
Michelle the two books you mentioned a couple of books.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Oh, yes, yes, I have How to Present, which has
been out since two thousand and nine. Okay, great, it's
the best went to best seller when it hit this title,
How to Present. It's been really re released in twenty
twenty two with two new chapters on virtual presenting.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
If you're really struggling to keep the engagement online. There's
some great new chapters in the new version of the book.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Fast.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
The other book is How to Persuade It, which is
also a bestseller, and this discusses the latest research into
persuasion that's been done in the whole world. My research,
the latest research on what persuades others to stop being
stubborn and say yes to you.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, Michelle, fantastic the queen. As we talked about at
the start. We're wrapping up. You just done on the
proof points for that one. Thank you so much for
coming on the show. And I think we've all what's
absolutely possible in in presentations and persuasion.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's been that honor.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the It's All
Possible Podcast. You can contact me at Rob at Robhardner
dot com or my website Robharder dot com or on LinkedIn.
Remember to check out the previous seasons and episodes of
the podcast and the show notes for more details on
this episode's guest. For more inspiration, remember to check out
(40:02):
the All Possibility Players on Spotify, which contains a collection upbeat,
positive music I use for inspiration in my live performances.
Until next time. Live with Passion had a perspective of possibility.
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartnett, and as your chief Possibility Officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. And I am super pumped, super
pumped today because I've got the Godess, the Queen, the
go to authority for influence communications and presentations in Australia,
(00:50):
the wonderful Michelle Baton.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Michelle.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Welcome to the show, Queen Michelle. Michelle with you today,
well the Prince of Possibility. So I could only to
step you up to Queen Michelle.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Thank you. My kids and all their friends call me
Queen Michelle.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
So there you go. Yeah, you let the kids know
that I'm a hip with it and I definitely got
the I got the Instagram message on it. Now communication
influence persuasion, You've been doing a long time. But where
did that passion come from to help others get better
at it?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, I've always been good at it. Well, let me clarify.
I started shy. I started as a shy child, and
I was very fortunate that I had parents that weren't
into shy, so I had to come out of my
shell from a young age. I was good at debating
and public speaking when I when I was a ballet dancer,
I was in the Camber Youth Ballet Company, so I
(01:48):
was performing on the stage.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And then when I.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Got my first proper corporate job working for lend Lease,
I went to two different presentation skills course there's over
a short period of time, and on both occasions the
person offered me a job, so I realized I must
have been quite good at it. And I didn't end
up taking either of those jobs, but I did work
(02:12):
for one of the top presentation skills companies at the time,
this is like twenty seven or eight years ago, named
more of Fay Workshops, and they used actors in their training,
so I learned a lot that and then I did
set up After working for some other consultancies, I set
up my own company twenty five years ago and in
nineteen ninety nine, and the rest is history.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
The rest is history it ever since. I just believe,
don't you, that it's good to stick to your knitting.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
So I certainly from a consultant's point of view, the
fact that I've stayed in my lane.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
And I haven't really moved out.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Of persuasion and presentation skills, but that whole time, I'm
very happy to refer clients to someone like you if
they need what you offer, and not to just say
I can do everything. So I really have honed my
craft by sticking to my knitting.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I think that's a really good idea too. I do
think that you can vary a little bit a little
parts week sometimes accommodate, but you when someone's looking for
something else, it's far, far, far better credibility and say, hey,
you know what, I know somebody. It's not me, but
I know somebody. Because then when you come, is that
what we cause the broker of strength, which is you know,
I don't know who does this, but Michelle will know.
(03:25):
So I connect with Michelle and it may be you.
It maybe not you, but you at least the phone rings,
isn't it or the email comes in or get a message.
So I think that's a it's a good place to stay.
But you've also done it. But you've done it so well,
and I think, but you've also evolved clearly as well.
Let's talk about that. One of the things about evolving though,
is in the workshops. And you run really good workshops
(03:47):
plus the keynote speaker, but you talk a lot about
the power of generative learning in workshops. You wanted to
just dive into that. What do you mean by yes,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, I learned this concept from my two bosses, which
Robert Scanlon and Rod Matthews, who really showed me how
to be a consultant before I set up my own company.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So that's like twenty six years ago.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And it shocks me to this day, Rob that there
are so many corporate trainers out there that have never
heard of this concept of generative learning. We all know
what experiential learning is. That's where people have an experience.
They're not just sitting there like zombies listening to you
talk at them. They're participating in the learning. Generative learning
(04:33):
takes it that one step further, so you craft an
activity as a trainer that your delegates will participate in
that causes them to have what's known as a referential
index shift.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It's where the.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Activity becomes something that stands as a metaphor for a
moment that they will have in their workplace, in their life. So,
for example, I do an activity in my presentation skills
training course to help people manage their nerves. As you know,
nerves is one of people's biggest fears. It isn't higher
(05:10):
than death, even though that funny saying of Seinfeld is
quite famous, but it is up up there in the
top three. And so I do this generative learning activity
where I get the audience to walk with holding onto
a long stick and they have to focus on areas
of the stick. And in doing that, what they're actually
(05:30):
practicing is what they'll do with their eye contact every
time they're in an presenting to an audience, whether that's
a meeting or a big conference.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Like what we do as keynotes beakers.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
So it generates that connection with the real experience that
they will have in their actual life.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And you know, there's just as it is experiential.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Learning, I think is hard to find, certainly online with
online training, but generative learning doesn't appear to.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Be happening really at all either.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
And that's one of the reasons why people say to me,
your training course was an experience like no other. It's
because they've actually shifted in the training room, which rather
than waiting until they get back to work.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, I would say about that, if they don't shift
in the training room, they're not going to shift when
they get back to work because they've got.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
A coach like you that's helping them monitoring basis.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
That's a leader or a coach who these days generally
it's so busy and they've got their own things on.
Prompting to coach to coach is a whole different conversation.
So I love it. I love generally learning. I love
what how passionate you are. And I think it's a
good observation, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I mean, I work with the client called Salesforce, and
it's really interesting watching their experience. So sometimes in Salesforce
people come along to the training and they fully get it.
We're all different and I'm doing my best with ten
people in the room to have everyone shift the same.
But just you know, that's not always possible. Sometimes though
(07:03):
the person leaves the training and they've misunderstood and that's
a real problem.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
That's a problem, right, tell me more about that stick.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yes, So in the next sales pitch that they do,
they they're like a hand grenade going off doing what
they think is best practiced.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But that's the point of what the technique was.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And Paskforce is really aware of that, and they care
so much about their customers that they've put in systems
and processes in place to make sure that that doesn't happen.
That the people learn the training with me, they do
experience as much of a shift as possible in the
two days, but then they have a whole system that
kicks into place that further enables their people. And you know,
(07:48):
that's a sales focused, customer focused organization. And I really
believe when it comes to good training, that's what all
organizations should be doing.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So are they really are they doing a version of
seventy twenty ten?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
What's that? So?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Seventy twenty ten is is a concept. It's been around
for many, many years. Some people believe in some people
don't actually think it's it's pretty accurate, although it shifted
I think with the pandemic. But I love your view
so seventy percent says seventy percent of the training I'm
going to get my learning is on the job, twenty
percent is from my leader and manager while I'm in
(08:23):
the job, and ten percents in the classroom. Yeah, so
seventy twenty ten if you believe it, it's basically a
culture of learning, which says that it's really important your
managers a train your leaders are changed that we have
six we have coaches that are training how to coach,
how to lead, because they're that really important. Twenty I
think with online learning and the pandemic, it's probably shifted
(08:43):
to probably twenty. Well they get my numbers right now,
probably like probably fifty thirty twenty something like that is
my view, But you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Not numerous, so I'll say that up front. Communications.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But what I do know is that the conversation the
manager has with their staff before they hit the training
room is the most important thing. If the manager doesn't
talk to their team member about what they could improve
and what they think they're already quite good at, they
just don't have that felt need to be in the
training And I can be as amazing as possible, I
(09:18):
just don't quite have that ability to shift that person the.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Way I know I can. I've run my two day.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Master classes we chatting here today one thy and twenty
seven times.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I've run it nearly every.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Week for twenty five years, so I'm pretty good at
shifting people. And I see it every single week that
if the person just turned up because their boss said
you've got to go, we just can't get the outcome.
We have so many processes in place in our company
to make sure that people don't turn up just because
they got told. As you say, managers are busy, leaders
(09:54):
are busy, they sometimes just don't make the time, which
I think.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Is at stake to that's I'm always a big believer
in the exec sponsor. I'm a big believer is coming.
I've literally just come off a call with the client
where we had the exec sponsor on with the people,
people in the culture and leading leading learning team, and
it was fantastic because we're just going through, OK, let's
just confirm who's kicking it off, who's coming, the pre
work's being done, what are we going to check checking
(10:20):
on that? And you just have you just so much
look forward to the gig. You know when you know
that they're taking care and you and I have to
prompt them because they've got lots of things on. I
don't mind doing that, but I think that's, yeah, that's
a really important when I love what Salesforce are doing
and taking that seriously because you can get people haven't
come out of the training and feeling incredibly empowered, just
they're heading off in the wrong direction, which is which
(10:42):
is not great, especially if we're in customer facing sales
related roles, because then the damage is even exponentially.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I'm not kidding.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
It's like a hundred granade going on in the meeting
and everyone's going, what's That's what Michelle told me about.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And so with question on that with sales, So look,
I've always seen sales as a combination three things. Great pride, knowledge,
you've got to know your shit basically customer centricity, and
superb communication skills. And let's been able to convey that
in a way that shifts the customer because sales is
very much about change. Really are communication skills do you
(11:22):
think are essential for today's salespeople?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I think that all of what you said is it.
It's just the distinction within that.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
So when you use the adjective superb communication skills.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I think we all have a different understanding of what
SUPERB might look like.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, good point, And.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So some often people will score themselves on pre work
before they come to my course as confident or advanced
at presentation skills. And my job is not to diminish
their confidence in any way. But there's no way between
you and me and all the listeners here today.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Those people are either competent all right.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
But that's a common trait though, isn't it, Because that's
I mean, that's the dune In Kruger effect, right, Absolutely,
it's totally you know that they think and sometimes they
innocently think and need that mindset shift. There's all leaders
think their amazing leaders, All card drivers think their amazing card.
We rate ourselves much highly than actually what the truth
(12:23):
is until we find out.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yes, that's it.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
So I say, there's three strategic phases to a good
presentation in business, SUPERB to use your word, and the
phases are very simple. Analysis, design, delivery. Analysis is where
you work out what are you trying to achieve, but
importantly also what is your stakeholder, your customer and your
boss whoever you're presenting to what do they need? Yes,
(12:46):
and I teach a very fast five step model that
helps you get right into your audience to shoes and
really think about what is that current state that they're
in and what is your desired state for them. Then
the second phase is the desig phase, and it hasn't
really got much to do with the slides, even though
that's what a lot of people would do their first
(13:07):
to do with the structure of the communication and when
it comes to superb communication, I believe I invented a
model back in two thousand and six called the Persuasion Blueprint,
and it has thirteen linguistic patterns in it that all
do different jobs to make sure that you're pulling your
stakeholder along with you, building rapport with them, managing their objections,
(13:30):
dealing with the facts and the data, running Q and A,
effectively calling them to action, all of the things that
you need to do in a really good business presentation.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And then and.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Then yes, some slides to back that up. And then
the third phase is the delivery phase. So that's all
the things people can think of when you think of
a presentation skills course, stuff like your stance, your gesture,
your movement, your eye contact, your interaction with your audience,
and yes, the three phases.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
And it's so interesting, you know, often come to me.
My boss needs presentation skills.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
He's been given the deck from the comms team, and
so can you just teach him.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
How to breathe better and manage his nerves?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
No, no, because you need to follow all three phases correctly.
And without phase one, phase two and phase three, you're
really you're pushing it uphill, to be honest. But it's
once you learn how to do those three phases. I
fundamentally believe that everyone can be a great business presenter.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You've just got to know what to do and then
do it.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, and I really like that because if you don't
do phase one and someone just gives you a deck
and you've got a presenter, well, you're not going to be
confident you didn't do the deck. You might even think
it's too much. It's not your style, it's not the
way you speak. It is amazing that we still we
still put up with with you know, let me calmind
and help my boss, help my boss do this, this
and this, when we just know it's going to be
(14:56):
a train wreck.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And really I do think we could all take our
communication more seriously, because you know, I've written a book
called How to Persuade, And one of the things that
I know from my research into persuasion is that the
opposite of persuasion is not necessarily a neutral outcome where
you talk, they listen or not, everyone goes home and
(15:21):
we're all good. Actually, when you fail to persuade, when
you muck up the persuasive moment, at the least, the
person can be confused, and at the worst you might
completely have disappointed them, or they might even lose complete
respect for you. Yes, and so actually, it is so
important to make a serious decision to take our communication seriously,
(15:46):
so that even in those unconscious persuasion moments where you
don't even realize that that's what you're doing, you're always
putting your best foot forward.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah. Great, it's a great point. It reminds me of
a reminds me of pitch some clients mine had, and
they were doing this big pitch, and they were a
multinational business, and they had lots of entities and they
were going to bring they felt with this large organization, said,
you know what if you could bring all your entities together.
It could really benefit us. We could buy on scale.
You'd be good for you. Supply chain would be fantastic.
(16:17):
And this person said, look, can you bring to the seller?
Can you bring your team together and present as one? Right?
And so that's what they did, except here's where they
fell down. When they were ready for the pitch. They're
in the room, right, They've got the laptop plugged in.
The slides are awesome. In front of the customer and
(16:37):
all his stakeholders. Right, the selling team came together and
shook hands and greeted each other and said it was
great to see each other for the first time, and
sat down and then said it's great to be here
as one. And they thought they did a fantastic pitch.
(16:58):
They walked out and the by I said, if you
ever do that to me again, I'll throttle you. And
the sealer Hi, and he was telling me the story, said,
he said, what do we do wrong? I had run there.
I organized them all to fly. You know, what do
you think? And he says, you were meeting and greeting
in front of everybody else. You clearly don't know each other.
You're clearing out of line. You clearly don't know what
(17:18):
each business unit does, and you want us to buy that.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
And my.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Person I was talking, he said, oh my god, he said,
I'd never thought of it. He said, how embarrassing. Oh
my god, I cannot believe. So they got the bit
that the analysis right, they got the deck right, but
they hadn't thought through from a customer perspective what the
delivery was going to look like. And they shot themselves
in the thought literally right, you know, right at the
(17:44):
last point. So I think your great point about taking
that seriously is like you know, from soup to nuts,
take it seriously, not just the main course. It's all
what about today's leaders. You're working a lot with leaders.
You've spoken about that, but what are some of the
communication skill gaps you're seeing today? And I'm talking to
(18:06):
maybe over the last couple of years, two or three years, you've.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Noticed, Well, managing conflict is always going to be tough
for people.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Isn't it. You know.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
So there's four main ways we go about persuading that
people around us, and most of us are strong in
two of those ways and weaker in two of those ways.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And why would you care about that?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Because if the communication scenario requires what is currently your strength.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Then you're just going to talk and the person's going
to listen beautifully, and everyone's going to agree, and we're
going to high five, and we're all got we wanted,
and we all leave feeling terrific. If, on the.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Other hand, the communication scenario requires what is currently your weakness,
you simply don't have those skills in your communication toolkit
to say it in the way that the person can
hear it and appreciate it and understand it and approve it.
And that is why sometimes even when you've got a
great idea or feed in sales, you're selling a great
(19:06):
product or service, but the person just seems very stuck
and stubborn. It's because you are using what is your
strength for communication, but actually the stakeholder needs a different approach.
So that is a classic and common problem amongst all humans.
And we did in not just our work life, we
(19:27):
do this in our home life as parents, as partners.
You know, we think again that we forget that we're
actually like your example of the people turning up to
the pitch and greeting each other in front of the client.
There's plenty of times as a parent where you just
your mouth goes without too much preparation in fans, and
(19:49):
you're going to fail in that moment if the person
has a different requirement to you. I mean, the hilarious
thing about persuasion is you're not trying to persuade yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
You are already persuaded. You're trying to to give the
other person what they need.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
So when you have things like change management programs or
a conflict situation, they're often the toughest moments because.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You're trying to say it the right way.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
You've probably got good intentions and you're trying to do
your best. But until you've really thought about what is
it that that stakeholder requires, what style of communication do
they need, and then you've adapted from what is company
for you to what they actually need, that's when you're
going to get what you want. So when I'm working
with pitch teams, we spend a lot of time thinking
(20:38):
about who the stakeholder is and which of the four
types they might be, and how are we going to
change our pitch, How are we going to change things around.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So that they get what they need?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Ye, So I don't think that's you know, you've asked for,
Like a modern day example, I don't think that's a
modern day example.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I think that's been the same forever.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I think it's been Yeah, I think so. It's been
around for a long time, and I've been using the concept.
That's where I bring disk into it. When I'm thinking
about the salespeople and I'm asking them to think about
their own style, but also who are they who are
they going to as a predominant style, because we're all
more than one. But and then think about who else
in your team is a more compatible style or who
could you run it past? Because way haven't you is
(21:20):
your You've made a great point which you're not persuading yourself.
I think that's a ripper. And I use a couple
of things. I'm about change management with people. I use
this acronym called ucop, which is, you know, do they
understand it, did they contribute to it? Do they do
they feel they own it? And can they pass it on?
So because if you don't, if they can't pass it on,
(21:41):
it means they can't get it. And you're off off
thinking well I've communicated to change, I'm now off and
they're like what was that about them? And they talking
amongst themselves. I says, you've probably seen tons of times
like me. You said, all the time where and the
leaders are often going, but everybody's still sitting around going sorry, what.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Was that about? Yeah, yeah, and even at home.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
You know, I was speaking of a lady named Jenny
the other day. He's been married for forty seven years
god and her husband every morning for forty seven years
of her marriage, has made a cup of coffee in
the kitchen and then put his used cup on the
kitchen bench and made a coffee ring on the bench.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And the good old saying of pick your fights, especially
in conflictation.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
So Jenny is every single day for forty seven years
of marriage, Jenny has wiped that coffee ring from the bench,
and on the occasions where she's not there and can't
do it, it's made a stain right the bench.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So now they've got a.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Fork out fifteen thousand dollars to get a new kitchen bench,
which is very irritating to Jenny because if he had
just put his cup straight in the dishwasher or instead
of himself.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And so, you know, you think, you think that it's
a small matter.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
You think the coffee ring on the bench is just
a silly little thing and you just deal with it.
But actually, in relationships, it's often those little things that
end up turning.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
From a snowball into an avalanche.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah, they all add together and then you just really
dislike the person because they irritate you. Great great feeling
that we shouldn't wallow in misery.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
You know, I agree. It's a concept of you've heard
about it called the emptying the cup, which is what
you're doing big key account relationships. Whereas you don't want
the cup to overflow, what happens is the cup overflows
over a simple thing like they were late. There were
ten minutes late for the meeting, and all of a
sudden the accounts now in jeopardy. And it's never about
the ten minutes late for the meeting then going up,
(23:43):
and it's one a clide mine said, you can never
fully empty the cup. If you're talking about big companies
to big companies, there's always a challenge somewhere. But you
can keep the cup about a quarter fall, right, that's it.
When it keeps coming up and up and up, and
then the most trivial thing can you just annoying, annoying, annoying,
and then all of a sudden to your point that
you've never got fifteen hours a problem or in your
kitchen because you haven't nipped it. And I think that
(24:04):
I think that's still going on. I think there's a
bit of that still going on in relationships clearly, but
also I think in large organizations we just kind of
accepted for too long until it becomes that's the norm,
like that's what that's the way, that's what's acceptable around here.
And I think that's the bit that needs needs to stop.
I want to talk about slide design. When you talked
(24:24):
about second ago about slides, I remember, I remember when
I was at HP and we were great users of PowerPoint,
and I remember talking to team members of mine. They said, Rob,
can you come over here and help us with our presentation?
And I said, sure, we are. You're up there. I said, well,
we've got we've got this, we've got that, We've got
ninety slides.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I said, okay, so wow, guys, how long you're going for? Well,
we've got we've got sixty minutes. And I'm like, hang
on a second, how you have you thought about this?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, we're going to move pretty quick and yeah, And
it was the position was they said, but I think
we're ten ten more than a showd I'm like about
forty more issue or fifty ten. Why is that the
heart to go to it?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Maybe that's not the problem, So I'm going to be
contradicial and disagree. So what's happened in the corporate world
is that most people, when they have a presentation to
put together, procrastinate for a while, and then when they
finally get over their procrastination, the first step is they
go to their PowerPoint, download all the odd slides they're
used on that subject matter, put them in some kind.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Of an order, and they work out what they're going
to say right now.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Of course, that's the opposite of the approach that I recommend,
which is do your analysis, then create your script, which
is what some people call a talk track.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And then make your slides. So that's the first point.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
The second point is that what happened was CEOs and
executives want their staff to present to them, to give
them updates and keep them in the loop of what's
going on in the organization. But what is happening is
like you say, they had ninety nine slides in in
sixty minutes, and I remember being working with a pharmaceutical
(26:07):
company some years back now where they had ninety for
investigator meetings with their uptating.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Doctors on the protocols for trials. They had ninety nine
slides in fifteen minutes. Man, it's like that would imagine
how fast you.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Were the battery and your clicker.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So my point is that then what happened was those
busy executives were being harassed by these ninety slides in
sixty minute presentations. So they made hilarious rules like you
can only have three slides. So then people did was
they put seventeen slides worth of content into three slides.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right, it's a five point font right, that's it at
five point fonts and five hundred words.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So you can't read any of it anyway. So I
think we.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Need to all step back from all okay now and
say to ourselves, okay, so what's the in the however
long you've got.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
You've got fifteen minutes, you've got twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
You've got an hour, you've got whatever you've got, what's
what do you want to say?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, first work that out. Where are you trying to
shift them to from where? And to where?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
And then once you've done that and you've got a
really good so I say, there's thirteen linguistic patterns in
a rape script, So get that sorted. And then once
you've done that, then create the slides that reinforce your
key messages for your audience. And that's the distinction. Not
so you remember what to say next. You're in your
own shoes in what we call first position when you're
(27:38):
putting slides together, so you remember what to say next.
The slides are not for you to remember what to
say next. That's what your script is, and that's what
your rehearsal's for. If you're taking this seriously and you
care about your customer, you're only showing slides that reinforce
your point for them so that to your point, they
can then pass it on yes, which is what you
(28:00):
were discussing, because they remember this.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Like I'll give you an example.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
A doctor recently was talking about finding melanoma on the skin.
It can be difficult to locate and people die of
melanoma because their skin check never showed up the melanoma.
So imagine this slide in your mind. Even though you
can't actually see it, you will see it in a minute.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
When I describe it, it was a slide that led
to the edges.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So just a picture right to the very edges of
the most beautiful colored Smarties.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
The little lolly chocolate Lolly that all.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Over, Smarty on top of Smarty, on top of Smarty,
all taking up the whole screen, and one brown Smarty right,
And that's what she was saying. It's difficult to find
that one melanoma on the skin, and you can't even
with my my verbal description of it, you can't unsee that.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
That is what slides are for. They're not for bullet points.
It's not a word processing package. That's what Microsoft word
is for. Yes, it's a graphics package, which is why
camp has become so popular. And the whole idea of
it is that it's got to be undeniable. So I've
got a simple question, but that I'm very famous for
(29:19):
in my course, I say to everyone, for every single
slide in the deck, you've got to ask, is this
the best.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Way to visually reinforce this point?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
And if the answer is no, you need to be
tough on yourself and fix it or delete it and
go to a flip chart or a whiteboard or have
a handout or have supplementary pack like a board paper
that he to a page seventy or the append appendices seventeen.
You know, there's got to be another way if this,
If they can't read it, another one of my famous sayings.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
If you can't read it, don't show it.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So look, I think it is. It's actually common sense,
but we've completely lost the plot.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Well, I think it is in a way, Michelle, as
long as you know that. And I think sometimes it
gets if you're not taught that, you're not taught to
think like that. And asked that question, which was a
great one, which is you know, is this the best
way of explaining it? Or even better than that, is
this the best graphical image or way for them for
them to remember it as an audience man need to
(30:19):
explain it? I think is a really nice way. And
I've got a keynote.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
I'm doing a keynote tomorrow two hours and I think
there's one.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Hundred and twelve slides.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
So it's not about how many slides, it's about what's
on them. And my slides are just flourishing with beauty. Yes, luscious,
you just want to sniff them because I talk about
four birds and in the four persuasive types, and they're
in the jungle, and there'sodendrons and there's beautiful jungles. Well
(30:55):
you know ye, flora and fauna everywhere, and they're just
these beautiful, luscious looking slides. They do break one of
the rules that I set for other people, which is
keep them clean and clear, because they're very flourishing and gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Can I ask your question though, yeah, I don't know,
I know them. But do you recommend builds in slides
or you rather have a brand new slide? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
I do recommend builds. So is this the best way
to visually reinforce his points? Sometimes the answer is yes,
because the senior leader or the client has asked for
that on a slide, and you know better. You know
that that slide's awful, and you know that you're not
going to be able to direct their attention when you
show it. You're worried that the in fact, their eyeballs
(31:41):
will go to the wrong part of the slide, that
before you've even explained what you're trying to sell. So
in that case, yes, you must build it. And the
rule is that you're trying to direct their attention. So
if you just always keep remembering that what do I
want them to be looking at in this moment, and
then you you only build it when it's time for
(32:02):
them to see it. Yes, And particularly in online presentations,
it's so critical that you build it as you discuss
it rather than boomshackle lacker it's all up there, right, Yeah,
because it simply can't direct people's attention when you put
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Up in one go.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah. I think we're leading into a question I had
around emotion. I have a you might not, you might like,
this might not. But when I'm talking with people about communication,
and I said, I always refer to you for this anyway.
But one thing I do say to people is I
use an acronym. It's an acronym. I put it on
the white I put it on the white bollard because
it's easier. Which is just FKD Yes, which is which
(32:42):
is what do you want him to feel? What you
want them to know, and then what you want them
to do? Yes, So I'm getting able to think about that,
which is which is kind of around what's the emotional
kind of connection you want to make? I just use
a bit of humor with it to get the point
across what you talk about the emotional objective and being
clear and your emotional objective?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Can you talk about about that? Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yes, so in relation to that model you teach, I
have a different model, but just a simpler concept to that.
And our minds think, feel, do, which is boring compared
to everyone think it is, so think fielding. So what
are they thinking, feeling and doing and what do you
want them to be feeling and doing? So just taking
out that feel section, which is what you're talking about here,
(33:23):
I would say, what is the emotional journey that Because
good speakers, whether you're a keynote speaker, whether you're a salesperson,
whether you're a leader, whether you're just a team member
who's doing an update to everybody, so they get excited
about the project, what is the emotional journey that you
want them to go on? And good speakers do this.
So yes, For example, you might want them to be
(33:44):
comfortable that we're meeting today, and then you want them
to feel concerned that there's an issue that hasn't been
resolved yet, and then you want them to feel worried
that it hasn't been resolved yet. And then you want
them to feel hope that there could be a solution
and that maybe you can solve it for them. And
(34:05):
then you want them to feel what's an example, Then
you want them to feel convinced that, in fact, you
do have that solution, then relieved that you've got the solution,
and because of that relief, then compelled to take the
action you require, and then really.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Pleased that you had the meeting, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
So you imagine the journey that and when you want
people to go on an emotional journey, it's called the
emotional objective in presentation skills. When you want them to
go on that journey, it's very important that you use
those words at that moment in your script or your
talk track. And you can be clever about this so
you can get it into the slides, or you can
(34:47):
just remember that in that moment, you've got to use
those words, and you've also got to feel it yourself.
If you don't feel worried for them, then they can't.
They won't feel as worried and sincerely worried, not faking it,
not pretending, but being authentically concerned for the fact that
(35:10):
their issue hasn't been resolved is going to cause your
You know, often people come to me and they say,
I need body language training, and there's people other than
me that are better at that than me. But what
I often say to people is you don't need body
language training. If you're clear on your emotional objective, your
body language is.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Going to do exactly what it's meant to do in.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
An authentic way that is very believable and compelling. When
you're worried, your face grimaces, your borrowed furrows, you know,
your eyes become smaller and more direct, the eye contacts
more direct. You know, there's just things and hunt your
shoulders and you do things physically, and when you're joyful,
(35:54):
you open and your eyebrows go up, and your eyes
pop more and small comes out and your cheeks lift.
There's things that just naturally happen when so rather than
sort of fake gestures in body language that you know,
you learn from some presentation trainer that that was the
thing to do in that moment. Actually, I'm a bit
more of a fan of, well, what's your point and
(36:16):
how do you want them to feel? If you think
more about them, then it'll be more authentic.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, I really I really like that. That's a great
way thinking about it. I had a question for you.
I was thinking about your twenty five years I'm doing
this business. Tell me that have you ever I was
thinking about it. This is in the car, and I said,
can I ask you this question? Tell me about a
couple of interesting or crazy venues you've presented in that
(36:42):
were just not what you expected.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Have you ever had that? Of course I have.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I've had to work with clients all over Australia and
you know I've run courses outside.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I remember running a course at the Melbourne Zoo one
time one hundred years ago and a lion escaped and
so we were all evacuated in forty one degree heat
and I had to finish running the day on the
pavement outside the front entrance to the zoo.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
And I've worked in all sorts of rural locations where
the only venue is a very dirty pub. Because I'm
so about the prep and making sure that everything's perfect.
I have quite quite an attention to detail about the
way I open had my flip charts on the wall.
(37:37):
They're very symmetrical and perfect. So yeah, some of those
things have definitely shifted me outside of my comfort zone,
but nothing too dramatic.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, but the fact you thought you I had a
couple as exciting as the focus escaped lion. That's absolutely classic.
So look a couple of things just before we wind
up and now were short on time. Where can people
find out more about you? Where we go?
Speaker 3 (38:01):
I have a website which is my name www dot
Michellebowden dot com dot au.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Now the first part not your name, that'ss www, but
that's Michelle Baden. I just want to be clarified.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
That's it www and also LinkedIn. Love to connect on
LinkedIn fantastic. I post almost every day free content on LinkedIn.
That's a really good place for me.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Now, your website is brilliant. Can I just say that
because I love the blog, Because you're blogging as well
on there, you're blogging in there, You've got plenty of resources.
I just I think it's one of the best websites.
So if you're listening, I want to get up up
the speed on presentation skills and just understand some more
of what we've been talking about today and understand more
about Michelle. Go to Michelle Baden dot com. Do you
Michelle the two books you mentioned a couple of books.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Oh, yes, yes, I have How to Present, which has
been out since two thousand and nine. Okay, great, it's
the best went to best seller when it hit this title,
How to Present. It's been really re released in twenty
twenty two with two new chapters on virtual presenting.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
If you're really struggling to keep the engagement online. There's
some great new chapters in the new version of the book.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Fast.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
The other book is How to Persuade It, which is
also a bestseller, and this discusses the latest research into
persuasion that's been done in the whole world. My research,
the latest research on what persuades others to stop being
stubborn and say yes to you.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, Michelle, fantastic the queen. As we talked about at
the start. We're wrapping up. You just done on the
proof points for that one. Thank you so much for
coming on the show. And I think we've all what's
absolutely possible in in presentations and persuasion.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's been that honor.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the It's All
Possible Podcast. You can contact me at Rob at Robhardner
dot com or my website Robharder dot com or on LinkedIn.
Remember to check out the previous seasons and episodes of
the podcast and the show notes for more details on
this episode's guest. For more inspiration, remember to check out
(40:02):
the All Possibility Players on Spotify, which contains a collection upbeat,
positive music I use for inspiration in my live performances.
Until next time. Live with Passion had a perspective of possibility.
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