August 3, 2025 • 49 mins
Matthew Lumsden is my special guest on this August 2025 It's All Possible Podcast. Matthew a lawyer by profession is the author of "Shibui, The Persimmon Principles" his book on the Japanese Culture of Shibui. Matthew and I met during his days as a global leader at the Australian arm of global investment firm Vanguard and we have stayed connected ever since.
Matthew has been passionate about Japanese culture and their way of life for many years which led him during his high school years to spend time living with a Japanese family as part of an exhange program and later working in Japan.
In typical Matthew style, he spent time back in Japan recently researching for this incredible book, Shibui.
Matthew is a person of possibility through and through. This means he is human and on his way to discovering his purpose he pushed the limit career wise which ended up in burn out and the internal conversation of "am I living my true purpose". It was this burn out that led to the breakthrough of Matthew going back to his passions and writing the book Shibui.
In this podcast Matthew opens up about how he has used the concepts of Shibui to shape his personal and business life. He also openly discusses his journey to burn out and how we can fall into the traps of a driven life and what to do to ensure we come out of it in a better position.
We then discuss the essential elements of Shibui which are Simplicity, Subtlety, Impermanence and Imperfection and how they can be applied to our personal and business lives.
I hope you enjoy Matthew and the concepts of Shibui. Shibui is available online and at all good bookshops and Matthew can be found on LinkedIn , Instagram and Tik Tok and at https://www.shibuiadvisory.com/
Matthew has been passionate about Japanese culture and their way of life for many years which led him during his high school years to spend time living with a Japanese family as part of an exhange program and later working in Japan.
In typical Matthew style, he spent time back in Japan recently researching for this incredible book, Shibui.
Matthew is a person of possibility through and through. This means he is human and on his way to discovering his purpose he pushed the limit career wise which ended up in burn out and the internal conversation of "am I living my true purpose". It was this burn out that led to the breakthrough of Matthew going back to his passions and writing the book Shibui.
In this podcast Matthew opens up about how he has used the concepts of Shibui to shape his personal and business life. He also openly discusses his journey to burn out and how we can fall into the traps of a driven life and what to do to ensure we come out of it in a better position.
We then discuss the essential elements of Shibui which are Simplicity, Subtlety, Impermanence and Imperfection and how they can be applied to our personal and business lives.
I hope you enjoy Matthew and the concepts of Shibui. Shibui is available online and at all good bookshops and Matthew can be found on LinkedIn , Instagram and Tik Tok and at https://www.shibuiadvisory.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartnett, and as your chief possibility officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. And once again we have an
astounding guest. I don't know where I get them from,
but they just keep coming along. And this one is unbelievable.
(00:47):
Today I have an incredible guest that author, a lawyer,
a speaker, a consultant. I don't know, there's so much
to him. Is totally one of these people that's definitely
a person of possibility, which you please welcome. Matthew loves it.
How are you, Matthew?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Very well, Thank you very much, appreciate the very kind introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Oh, no problem at all.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Currently, currently you're on your role, you're the principal of
Shability Advisory, but you know, you and I go back,
don't we, my friend, we go we go back, We
go back into your your your unbelievable days. And I
think you are one of the great definitely one of
the great clients of mine, no questions asked. But you're
also an amazing sales leader and leader and leader in
(01:30):
general sperial days at Vanguard. I mean it must be
going back, but probably nine years now, nine maybe nine
years probably coming up.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Started early days when we started at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, and I remember you challenged me, which I
always loved about you and Vanguard, by the way, it
was one of the great clients and ladies and gentlemen.
We used to have a two day workshop when I
was working Millahymon and Matthew said, yeah, I kind of
like that. I kind of like the content, but can
we do it in one? You know? And I'm like,
that's interesting. And the Mela Harman guys I spoke to
(02:05):
and there was a gap on the end of the
phone and they passed out at that point and we
came back and I said, well, I reckon, I can
do it one because I was really up for the challenge.
And we did it. When we started at seven am.
I think in Sydney that first workshop, and what I
really liked about what you did. You set the tone
from the top, and I think from a leader, I've
always reminded that by you, and you set the tone
from the top, and ladies and gentlemen, this was not
(02:26):
a small ask. Matthew said. The prereading is an entire book.
So and to my amazement I read it, went wow,
this will be interesting. To my amazement, Matthew's entire team
read the book and I only read it came to
amazing questions and I just think that was a real
to me that it was an example of your leadership
and also the respect you carried within Vanguard. So all
(02:48):
krudos to you, my friend. And so when you moved
away from Vanguard, you worked a couple of startups. You
were you did this crazy thing which I want to
get into because when you told me about God, you're amazing.
This will be a test though. When you went, you
moved away and you were working for a UK based company,
but you were doing it from Paul mccrarie. M I
(03:09):
right about that, and I think that led you to
some epiphanies in life.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And you round it out and crazy.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You were played all faith in you, but you you,
you did become a mere multel and said, hang onuy
a second, this is tough, and so a few little iterations.
But you've also basically got basically decided to become an author,
which I'm really excited about. And I know that you've
always had it in you. And the books called she Building,
(03:38):
so all got a little photo later on, but you've
got your bility out. Tell me why she building, tell
me why he came to this point. Let's let's start.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
There, starting with the big questions. Yeah, yeah, I think
I always had a book in me, and I've always
obviously loved reading, as you know, and and thrust that
onto various team members over the years. And I think
(04:07):
for me, my love for all things Japan started when
I was five years old and I went to a
small Catholic primary school in Sydney and they offered Japanese
and so I started to get exposed to the language
and the culture and the history. And I think because
(04:31):
it was just such a different set of ingredients, if
you will, I just fell in love with everything about Japan.
And I think as a small child, the mystique and
the imagery associated with the samurai in particular was very intriguing,
(04:55):
and so I think over time, I've just read a
lot about Japanese culture. Obviously lived in Japan when I
went to Japan on exchange when I was fifteen, and
I lived with the host family, went to a high
school Japanese high school, and then I went back to work,
So I've kind of always topped up my interest in
(05:18):
all things Japan. And so, as you rightly pointed out,
my crazy endeavor to work for a fintech in London,
albeit largely doing it from Australia, led to complete burnout,
(05:38):
and I just sat back and reflected on what was
most important to me in my life, and I started.
I think that started the basis for a book. And
then I thought, well, how do I talk about various
things that people find interesting? And so I came up
(06:03):
with the idea of talking about a cultural construct that
is not familiar to most people. And even even in Japan,
very little has been written about shibui. So I'm kind
of excited that I spent a bit of time figuring out, well,
(06:25):
which aspects of shibu should I write about, and then
start the conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, I'm really glad you've also written it, and I'm
quite fascinating. I was fascinated with your background and going.
Actually I didn't know. I knew you would you would
work in Japan, and you had you had a passion
for Japanese culture, but I didn't know the real background.
Didn't know from the five year old and primary school
and then going over there with the host family. And
you may not know this, but my cousin Gina actually
(06:54):
did a very similar thing, and she's went to Japan.
She I think she went there at agent. She must
have been sixteen seventeen and lived with host family, studied law.
She's actually a lawyer and she works in financial services
and she's in London. So there was quite a lot
of connection for me when I was reading your story.
(07:15):
And I know Jenna will be listening to this, So
Hi Jenna, and I hope you enjoyed this with Matthew,
and please feel free. Feel free. If there's anything he
tries to put over me, you can please correct me.
But no, she's great. I'm sure that's why I've already
had this connection with you when you were talking about it.
Why don't you think she's always been written about much
in Japan.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I think it's a concept that it is deeply ingrained
in Japanese culture, but in many respects, maybe it's something
that people kind of just know, you know, like that.
I often think about it in the context of when
(07:57):
you try and teach somebody English or you know your
own mother tongue, and you know, I've got young kids,
and my five year old in particular, is at the
moment just learning various aspects of the language, and she'll ask, well,
why is it pronounced that way or why is it
(08:18):
spelt that way? And I feel really inadequate as a
parent because you end up saying it's just because it is.
And so I think in some respects, shibui is a
bit like that. So there was this shorgun back in
the sixteenth century, Yoshimasa Ashikaga Yoshi Mussa, and he essentially
(08:48):
is known in history as possibly the worst shorgun in
Japanese history. And Donald Keene, who wasn't esteemed American academic
that spent a lot of time understanding the intricacies of
Japanese culture and ended up living there for most of
(09:09):
his life. He wrote a book specifically about Yoshimasa, the
Silver Pavilion in Kyoto, and the impact that he had
on the cultural life of Japan. And he in many
respects set the stage for what is shibui. You know
(09:31):
what aesthetically is considered shibui. And I think this is
the other whist about shibui. It comes from the aesthetic world,
so it's very much tied to the tea ceremony, ibana, pottery, ceramics,
(09:53):
and I've tried to then apply it to life and
business just to make it, you know, even more I
guess complicated in some respects, but that was kind of
the background. And I think sotoetsu Yanagi, just to finish
(10:13):
answering your question, he led the Mingame movement or the crafts,
the folk craft in Japan, so from kind of the
early nineteen hundreds post war. He then established the Japan
Folk Craft Museum in Tokyo, and there's a sister one
(10:35):
in Soul, which actually preceded the one in Tokyo. Anyway,
he's probably one of the few Japanese people that has
written about shibui in English, and I used a research
trip to Japan to go to the museum. I write
about that in the book, Yes, and you know, he
(11:00):
he had an incredible perspective on what was considered shibooi
and also what was considered beautiful. And he had a
view that it came from everyday of people, it didn't
come from machines or automation. So yeah, lots of lots
of really break nuggets from his books and his perspective
(11:24):
and collection.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And so as you apply it to business, what were
the Is this where you're brought in? If I get
to write the Persimon principles, did you bring those through?
Let's talk about that the Persimon principles then, and how
you connected the two. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So, I mean there's no literal translation for shibouy, but
essentially it means a refined simplicity. Yes, and you know,
for a concept that has simplicity at its core, ironically
it's quite complicated to unpack. And so I was talking
(12:02):
to my dad about all of the components, and I
was going to talk about simplicity and subtlety and imperfection
and impermanence, and he said, well, didn't you tell me
that there's a meaning that's tied to a person. So
(12:23):
an unripened person has a stringent taste and so that
in Japanese is called shibu gaki, So there is a
literal connection to persons. Hopefully I didn't extend the connection
too far, but I then wanted to use, you know,
(12:45):
the four leaves on top of a person to then
essentially summarize what shibui means essentially to me an outsider
looking in. And I use simplicity, subtlety, imperfection, and impermanence
(13:07):
as the categories for further conversation about shibui and how
it applies to life and how it applies to business.
And I leave the reader with prompts because I think
some of the most effective and enjoyable business books that
I've read in my life have never really told me
(13:29):
what to do. They've always just provided me with a framework.
Because you know, I kind of believe one that books
find you the right book finds you at the right time.
Oddly enough, yes, and then secondly, it allows you to
then figure out, Okay, at this time, these are the
(13:50):
things that I'm thinking about, either in my life or
in business, or with my team or my partner. And
I'll then take what I want from the book and
then apply it. And I think that's what I hope
to do with writing about Shibut.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
It's a really interesting concept and it just hit me
a couple of ways. The book's timing was quite amazing.
My youngest son I don't think of that, which is lucky.
He's his masters in architecture and so he's just finished
an amazing design. When you're doing your masters, you're basically
close to commercial. When he's actually working on commercial work.
But the elegant simplicity, the impermanence, the subtlety, and what's
(14:32):
really interesting about some of the work he's doing. And
he's using repurpose furniture, and he's looking at how do
you repurpose everything? How do you get stuff off the
street and put it into an apartment building? And so
we're repurposing as much as we can. And as I
look at that, the elegant simplicity has gone behind. But
there's the complexity behind. Elegant simplicity is something that people
(14:53):
often don't appreciate. I see it in I see it
in yacht design. If you actually look at the most
the most successful yachts, easy to sail, easy to do.
The complexity in the thinking that we're into the simplicity
it's fascinating when you lift the lid. I see it
in his architecture. When you look at it as a
(15:13):
as a first person, you go, oh my god, to
layout so simple, so easy. The son comes in here,
but the thinking behind that enables you to appeel back.
And there were so many things on the on the floor.
As you just mentioned, simplicity and subtled in permanent imperfection.
And I think in perfection is a really strong one
in terms of, you know, down the perfection getting the
way of progress. That's we've all heard that and that
(15:34):
makes sense. So I actually see shaubuli in so many
different forms, and more so after I read your book,
I started to see more of it that refined or
refined relegant simplicity. Difficult to do, but you know, when
you see it, that's great.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I'm so happy to hear that that's the impact that
it's had, because I think about if we go back
to soetsu Yanagi. I tried to when I entered the
Japan Folkgraft Museum to put myself in his shoes and
(16:13):
see the collection through his eyes, try and understand, right,
this was his concept of shibui, and so you know,
he was a huge supporter of okinawen linen and dying techniques,
(16:34):
and so you notice in the rooms upstairs that the
curtains are made out of that material, you know. You
notice the very simple but sturdy wooden bookcases that house
a lot of these beautiful ceramic collections. You notice the
really large but cool stone tiles at the base of
(16:57):
the building as you walk in, you know where during
summer and summer in Tokyo for those that have been
is incredibly humid and hot, and so that moment you
walk in to your point about like reuse but also sustainability.
There's no air conditioning, but was cool, right, And so
(17:18):
I think there are so many things that we over
complicate in the modern world. And so for me, if
anybody takes anything from the book, it's trying not to
go down that path, you know, Like I think even
in terms of the business career that I've had and
(17:40):
even the clients that I work with now, we try
and then pair it back to, Okay, well, what is
the core problem that we are trying to solve here? Yes,
because I think there are so many instances and you'll
see this in your world as well, where there's an
attempt one to do too much, and two there's an
(18:02):
attempt to over complicate stuff that doesn't need to be
over complicated.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
One hundred percent. I think that's more and more I
do that. You're exactly writing my world to literally asked
the question work and let me get back to that.
I know what you're looking for, and sometimes it'll even be,
you know, quite prescriptive. I remember quite a large global
role out I did a few years back, interesting with
a large career in tell CA, when we worked hard
(18:29):
to work out with who it was, and they originally
came to us with the solution. They it was our solution,
and you could have easily gone, no problem, let's do
it and you we would have all made money and
it would have been great. It wouldn't have got them
where what they wanted, though, and so we literally had
to pair it back to go, actually, what are you
trying to solve here? Like, thank you for recognizing our brand,
(18:51):
great research, well done. However, you don't know what we know.
I e. We think that's not the right solution you
because we actually have this other stuff that you wouldn't know.
So we need to know what we really peel it
back and the reality of the situation was the people
we were talking to didn't know the why they'd just
(19:13):
been asked to go and get this, and so it
literally talk quite a bit of an investment on my
part and others. What I mean by that is two
trips to solve to meet with people three or four
layers above my pay grade, actually get FaceTime with them
to actually find out the problem. When we got to
(19:35):
the nub of the problem, their solution wasn't right whenever
it worked, and we actually had some good, solid debate
and ended up going from a what was something they
wanted to do over a weekend to being a three
year engagement ten times what they thought they were going
to put in the price. But what we're trying to
(19:56):
solve was something of a magnitude of one hundred x
thousand x was actually their problem. And so when you
peel it back that simplicity, actually, what are you trying
to solve? You because we can do a lot of activity,
Activity doesn't mean solution. It feels good, you haven't got
to the core of it. And I think I like
your That's why I like this book. I think if
you get back to what are you trying to solve
(20:18):
you like, why are we talking? Yes, and so let's
let's really get to that. Let's have that conversation beforehand.
I think that's the elegance of it to come back
and say, Okay, I see what you're doing. Maybe that's impossible,
maybe it's possible. When should we do it? And you
have that kind of rabbus today? I think that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, yeah, so I think I think about, you know,
the business context. I think about the life context, right, yes, yes,
I think when you are so busy and you're doing
lots of things, so the activity is are but you're
not necessarily then having the time to sit back and go, well, actually,
(21:01):
is this leading to my goals being achieved? So, and
I know that it sounds really big and scary, but
I often try and get people to a point to
ask themselves, well, why have you been put on this planet?
What is your purpose? What's your mission, what's your why?
(21:25):
Whatever the question is, or you know, the what's your dream,
the Simon Squibb question. I think they're all really good
questions and if we take the time to sit down
and go, well, you know what this is actually why
I've been put on this planet and then go about
creating an action plan that fits into that. And the
(21:48):
same goes for business, right Like, if your mission and
you and your vision and your values are all aligned,
that's why you know, I happily spent thirteen years of
my life at Banguard because those three things core components
of any business, were all really clear. Yes, And so
(22:11):
I think when those things are in place, like the
fundamental building blocks of life and of business, when they're
all clear, then it's actually really easy to go, oh,
that's not aligned with the business objectives, so let's not
do that.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, so little people do it. So there's a
couple of things to come to my mind as I
spoke through that. A lot of times, people though, will go,
I don't know why I've been put out on this planet.
I'm sure, and I'm super busy. And what I say
to people is is you know, action precedes passion, and
so sometimes you don't know unless you try something out.
(22:50):
And you may also answer that question and go, I
know why I've been put here, it's just because of this.
And I said, well, what have you done about it? Well,
nothing yet, and I go, go do something, because you
may find out you were putting for the particular reason,
and you've had this big dream in your mind and
it might not be right, and I think it's I've
just actually had this beautiful red carpet moment. I didn't
do it, unfortunately, but I saw it with Tom Cruise,
(23:12):
who's doing the whole mission impossible thing. But he said
a really interesting point. I said, what are you doing?
What are you doing these big, big task what do
you do? And he really answered it well, he said,
I write them down. And I'm not afraid to be afraid.
But the most immediate thing I do is get out
of my own head, take action, and I ring somebody,
(23:33):
I call somebody, I do something, I find out. If
I stay in my own head, it'll never happen, and
I'll walk away. But I'm not afraid to be afraid,
and I'm not afraid not to know, and I'm not
afraid to say to any of my team, I don't
know how we're going to do this, and I don't
know whether you know this. But the reason why they didn't.
They've got Dead Reckoning one and two is because the
end of Dead Reckoning one, what they wanted to do
(23:55):
in the submarine sequence is they hadn't invented the apparatus
to do it. That's what they did a part too.
It took them fifteen months to do the underwater scenes.
We've been an apparatus because of what they wanted to do.
Is the answer was, we are now had to film it.
We're going to need to do to the last movie
in two parts. And if you look back, he held
explains it quite well. But getting out of your own here.
(24:17):
So taking action I think in the direction is important.
That's the first one. Second one, we're like on the
business side, and I did a workshop with a company
recently and they had their values up and I said,
you know what, I'm going to kind of just challenge
on the values a couple of them. I don't understand
now that maybe I'm not that smart, but I didn't
quite get them. I think the valguies aren't easy to understand.
(24:38):
Then you've got to question that. And so we did
this values exercise and a number of their personal values
were not aligned to their company values. This is an LT, right,
And then one of the guys in the LT said, look,
I don't think that really matters. We have around personal
values and we have company values. And I just let
it hang, which is hard for me. I've learned something
(25:01):
back you. I let it hang. And while the other
team members said, hang on a second, did we not
say that personal relationships and what's going to differentiate that's
in a call to our business? They went, yeah, yeah,
personal relationships to everything. He said, well, personal relationships to everything.
How on earth can we have personal values different than
our company values? And then there was a silence that
I went, oh, god, that's right, Okay, back to work,
(25:23):
and they got them aligned. But it was a really
interesting debate with people who respected each other, which was
really great. So they felt there was definitely zychological safety
and they can say, you know what, we're misaligned here,
and they just essentially what they did was rescript what
they had, so it was just easier to get it
and they were all aligned. So they felt very comfortable
going forth into the market. Once again, simplicity, but sometimes
(25:44):
there's a little bit of complexity behind the simplicity.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, And I think to your point, right, you've got
to have the tough conversations, and so it's not just
a matter of getting alignment, it's also having the courage
to broach what could be a robust discussion and then
all saying okay, yep, we've had the debate, we've all
(26:10):
put our views forward, and we've now agreed this is
the path forward, no disagreement. Let's let's get this done.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fantastic. Now let's talk about
the book a little more. Now we're going to talk
about the book. That was a big question. You know,
I'm coming from this. You decided to do you wrote
the book backwards, now, lady and Jong Wye, you do
get the books you will is written backwards. Now, Matthew,
to take us through why? I mean, I know why,
(26:39):
but take us through why you decided to write it backwards.
So it starts at the back and goes goes the
way forward.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right it does. Yeah, And you know, I think this
is one of those things that's abart perspective. So if
you go to a Japanese bookstore, every book starts from
the back and finishes at the front. Right.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Well, that's it was. I did not know that first
of all. So that was fantastic you decided to do
it that way? Was I really applaud you for And
as it was that the main reason is because that's
how I think.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
As a result, like, I wanted people to think differently.
So yes, typically an English book is not written from
the back to the front, but I wanted people to
think about their life and about their business differently. Well,
if I want to shock somebody out of the status
(27:32):
quo thinking or the way things that have always been done,
I actually want them to go, what what do you
mean I have to read this from the back? Why
are you thanking the people that helped you get this
book done right at the beginning of the book, you know.
And I've had a couple of people say that it
(27:53):
took them a while even though they knew that you yes,
started from the back, and you know, they can't constantly
kept checking themselves. But I actually that's success in my mind,
because it started a process where people one, you know,
may not have been aware that there are other parts
in the world, you know, I know, you know Asia
(28:17):
in particular, but also many other parts in the Arab
world Muslim world read that way too. So that was
one and then two. It's a great conversation because you know,
if I'm going in and I'm sitting down with a
fifth generation manufacturing business and they've always done it a
(28:39):
certain way, Will I say, well, there are there are
other ways that you could do this, and there might
be simpler, more cost effective ways using technology or using
people in a different way to get different outcomes. So yeah, no,
I think it was worth the that I put everybody
(29:01):
through to get it to the point where it was
back to front.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And I have to ask you a question, how does
you go with the print? It's it's a lovely printed book.
It's a hard hard copy, and yes, and it's a
really well printed did your printers firstly go what that?
And have you said it's the wrong screen?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Doy? So their credit they were, they were really good.
And you know, I you knows, as you've experienced firsthand,
I like to push the envelope on what's possible. So
I actually wanted a slightly different finish. So I didn't
want to have a dust jacket, and so I wanted
(29:37):
the person printed on foil on cloth. And after you know,
various back and forth discussions, they ultimately said, look, it's
not going to end up with the quality finish that
you're after. So then they suggested this Ahlan finish, which
actually has come up really nicely. So all of the
(30:00):
bookshops that I've spoken to and stopped the book with
that they love the finish, and they love the vibrancy
of the orange of the person and on the back
of the white and that's also kind of in keeping
with Shibili, right, Yes, But you know, I think the
designer was also really accommodating and understood, so like right
(30:25):
from the get go, everybody that I worked with was
on the same page, and I think that that helped.
But it certainly would have been easier if I'd just
done what everybody else.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
No, I'm glad you pushed it because I think it's
a really good but you do have to remind yourself
when you're reading it sometimes if I pick it up
or haven't like a couple of days went by, and
pick it up again and go, now, I'm doing that
page first, or that one. But that's even a good
thing because it gets you in the moment of a book.
The other thing I liked about starting at the end
was something that you and I've done in business together
is we've also to say, well, what do we want
(30:56):
to get out of this meeting? What do we want
to get out of this strategy? Let's let's start, let's
begin at the end. Let's you know, what does success
look like, what does a good meeting look like, what
does a good strategy look like? What's a good outcome
for the client? If you think about that, that's exactly
what you've done here. You've gone let's start here and
let's go backwards. So I really like that that consistency
(31:17):
of framework. The question I had for you with when
you're at Vanguard. When you were, you said the principles
were aligned with a great organization for thirteen years you
were there because of that tital line, did you bring
any of did you bring any of shability into your
leadership at Vanguard, even though you might have called shability?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah? Absolutely. I think it's one of those things that
I now have this really neat label, but at the
time I certainly didn't recognize it. You know, I think
if I take the impermanent element of shabui, so nothing
lasts forever. I think there's probably two key facets of
(31:58):
that that I applied both, you know, when I was
a leader of leaders at Vanguard, but also in other
roles where I've led teams or people. So one is
about succession planning and also setting other people up for success.
(32:19):
You know. I think Richard Branson put it well that
his first job whenever he's the CEO of a company
is to find his replacement. And so I've always been
a really firm believer in finding your success at early
and giving them every opportunity to experience what it is
(32:40):
like to do the job that you're doing, so that
it's not a shock when you're asking them to step up.
And I think that's a mistake that a lot of
leaders make. It's like, well, no, this is my seat,
so now I've got to protect the seat. No, You've
got to give yourself the opportunity to do other things,
(33:00):
provide the opportunity for others to step up. So I
think that's one aspect of it. I think the other
really important one, and this kind of is innate in
my personality. So I can never really sit in any circumstance,
whether it be sitting in a coffee shop and seeing
(33:22):
things being done inefficiently or ineffectively, or in a business
broader business context, so it's like, how do you continually
improve and adapt to the changing needs of your customers
or the market. And so I think if you have
this concept in your mind that nothing lasts forever. You're
(33:47):
always thinking, okay, well what's next, and you're never ever
resting on your laurels. And to Vanguard's credit, I think
that was something that was built into the culture. So
even though we got bigger and bigger and there are
trillions and trillions of dollars being managed, I think the
leadership team was always very good at reminding everybody that, hey,
(34:10):
hang on, we're still the scrappy competitor, and so we
don't want larger competitors to eat our lunch, or we
don't want even smaller competitors to think that we're in
any way complacent. So I think they're probably the two
(34:32):
aspects that I applied.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, I think that's I really like that one too.
There's a couple of ones that I'm using in here.
I think way Google does it because some people go, yeah,
I get the concept, but I don't know how to
do it, and if you don't. If you don't, you
don't have an innate ability or that innate drive inside you,
like like I do what you do. I think the
Google way I thought was quite good. And so there's
(34:58):
is this principal seventy twenty ten, which is basically at
all times it's seventy percent working on core, twenty percent
working on stuff with Jason Decor, and ten percent on
off the reservation you know, out there ideas and if
you actually follow that for loss, I've said, eighty twenty
is well, eat twenty works, well, it's only twenty ten
is really interesting. One of the more complex business You
basically you make it part of the DNA of the business.
(35:22):
You know, are we truly we've got a little bit
loose and forgotten about the ten percent? You know, what
are we doing on that ten percent? We've got teams
on that, I think, and that also pair that with
your succession planning one, which I love and I totally
agree with you. It's so rare for me when I
asked the question, so tell me about your emerging leaders program,
(35:43):
and I get sis, I've got we've got leadership pregnant. No,
I said, how's your emerging leaders program? Your high persers,
your high potentials? What are you doing about that? And
so often it's just it's just like it's crickets, it's crickets.
And then they go, God, that makes sense, Like everyone's
so caught up. Yeah, so caught up on things. It's
(36:04):
interesting question for you. For shibui and AI.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
That's a tricky one. You know. Look, I, as you
can see from behind me, I am a traditionalist in
the sense that I still read books in paper. I
do occasionally listen to an audio book if I've got
a long drive. But I think on AI. So if
(36:35):
we pick up on the imperfection element of shibui, it
is strongly grounded in humans being involved in the process. Right,
So a teacup is actually beautiful if it has the
imperfections of somebody's fingers around the bowl. It's not considered
(37:03):
any less beautiful because of those imperfections. And I think
there are many aspects where highly manufactured processes lead to
a perfect teacup, but it's not necessarily considered shibui. Yes,
And so like my sense on the AI thing is
(37:27):
it's a bit like anything in life that everything's on
a spectrum. And to me, it's a bit like the
debate that we had around remote working. You know, there
was those that said everybody had to go back to
the office, and then there's those that said all remote
is fine. You know, nothing in between, and we settle
(37:49):
on something in between, right, and so I think with AI,
we've got two very similar positions. You know, those that
are saying it's going to save everything, you know, save
our future generations, save the world, and then there's people
that say it's the worst thing that we could ever
(38:09):
have been invented. I think it's an incredibly powerful tool,
but I think we've got to be careful. I reflect
on the research trip that I did to Turkyo and
Kyoto for Shibui, and I spent many a day in
(38:29):
Kyoto walking around temples, and many were far away from
the center of town, and on those walks, largely alone,
I contemplated so many aspects of shibui from a historical
and cultural perspective, but also spiritual. And I think, you know,
(38:55):
talking about AI, I don't even think we've got a
good handle on our own brains as human beings. I
don't think we've we've really scratched the surface in terms
of the research. So I kind of feel a little
uncomfortable venturing down a path where we're embracing artificial intelligence
(39:21):
when we haven't, necessarily, in my view, got a full
handle on human intelligence.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Such a great point. I really like that point. I
think there's also a couple of angles on it as well,
which I from a business perspective, I think, I think
there's some connections to shebility. And one was I heard
from a conference just the other week at Matt Coleman
at CBA made the point he said, this is the quote,
(39:51):
I'll try and get it right, which is every task,
every person, every day. Let's consider whether that can be
done with AI or not.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I like the simplicity of that because there is a
lot of Again, is there is there a place for it?
Which is really the question?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And and in the ceo I forgot his name there,
he's the CEO of Shopify came out a similar one
and said, before you ask me for any resources, can
I can I AI do it? And again it's again
it's not saying and there was. And again of course
that quote was taken out of context to your point
was like, oh, he's trying to replace everybody. Well no,
(40:31):
he actually wasn't. He was just simply saying, at the
speed it's evolving, can we focus our human intelligence in
a place where where they're more human intelligence is more
warranted as opposed to it. So I think where the
spectrum is a nice one to look at it, but
I think we'll get down that path because there is
there is, there's no question there's some things that I
(40:51):
use the Forum'm sure you use the form what I've
been what's really fascinating. No one's really picked up in
the media, but my colleague Ross Cameron, who does a
lot of research in small businesses e runs a small
business research company, is finding the take up of AI
and small business is unbelievably high, right because you've got costs,
and you've got people, and you've got on a small
business level, it's really high and it makes complete sense
(41:14):
why it's like that, But no one's really picked that
up in the media yet. So it's it's an interesting space.
But I actually do think there's some connections to shability
with it, and whereas most people would say, oh, there's
not it's more complex, it's more this. Well, actually, if
you go back to your principles before you mentioned and
you stay with those four, I think there's there's more connection.
But will any time will tell daily habits for shability?
(41:37):
What can we do? What can people do it to
introduce SHABII and the principles into their daily lives more.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, I think on that front, there's quite a lot actually,
So if you go through each of the components, you
know there's there's questions that I ask the reader that
will lead to pe people thinking through, well, hang on,
how can I incorporate this into my daily life? And
(42:07):
there's really simple ways. So I kind of think about
that comment that map common have made around the use
of AI. If we can use technology to make our
lives easier and better, and I think most importantly from that,
(42:27):
we can get more human qualities. So if your doctor
is spending more time with you empathizing with your situation,
or if it's your financial planner that's sitting down with
you and helping you discover your why, you know there
are there uniquely human things. And so I think about
(42:53):
it in the context of daily rituals like post COVID,
never really felt like I needed to get out and
have a walk or anything like that, but COVID certainly
left that mark on me and our family and that
every day I have to get out and I'm very
(43:14):
fortunate to live close to the beach, so I always
go to the beach, and that for me is a
daily ritual that feels very SUBI because it's a simple
thing I can do, but it has a massive impact
and huge benefits to mental health the other things. And
this kind of forces you to change your mindset. So
(43:37):
a bit like reading a book from back to front.
So mundane tasks, So i'ming school uniforms for the kids
or washing the dishes rather than thinking of them as chores.
Use it as an opportunity to almost treated as a
(43:59):
meditation and don't think about anything else. Right, So there's
a quote that I use in the book about washing up.
Just think about washing up, and it's I know it
sounds really simple and stupid in some respects, but it
(44:20):
is incredibly powerful. And so for me, I know you're
the same. How do you create a new habit? It
has to be simple and you have to repeat it
over and over again, and if you don't do it
really early on, the likelihood is that you won't change
(44:40):
your habits. And so there in my mind the simple
things that I take from Shibui that I that I
do and enjoy as a result.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, I think that's a really good one and a
great one to think about just enjoying that but also
taking the time to really enjoy the moment, and then
that's something there. It sounds easy, but it's really hard
to do. And I was doing some sailing, but I
hadn't done for a long time because of an injury.
But I was out there sailing on the weekend. I
just really enjoyed the moment. I wasn't thinking too much
(45:12):
about the trim or my arm or the issue at hand.
I actually was like, God, this is actually a really
nice day and I'm actually really enjoying being present.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yes, right now. It's massive.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
If you can do it, and if you can do
it on it, if you can make it a habit
to do that, try and get a bit of joy
and the everyday thing you're doing, it is actually a
big shift. I know that might seem crazy for some people,
but the great thing about it is you said you
can apply us to hoover out. What what are you're doing?
You're washing up, doing the ironing, you're going for a
cycling game, for a run, and walking the dog. And
one of my good friends says that when he's walking
(45:45):
his dog, he never wears Zip's air pods or anything
like that because that's his dog's time. And he says,
I want to be at one with my dogg it's
unfair to him that I put in my headphone sees
dog goes are good and I was going to have
to chat, you know, and so he goes, it's my
dog's time. And I love that thinking because that's that's
that's the kind of example, isn't it that we take
the moment to be the person you're with or the
(46:06):
animal you're with to really get the joy out of it. Now,
tell me how can we find how can people find shability?
So where where where is it? Is it? Yes?
Speaker 2 (46:14):
So they can get them directly from my from my website.
So shibuy is s h I b u I Advisory
dot com. Or there's three great independent bookstores that have
kindly added it to the shelves, so Avenue Books in Melbourne,
Betty Loves Books in Newcastle and book Face in Port Macquarie.
(46:38):
I'm having discussions with some other bookstores as well, but
they're for the moment, moment available because.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Okay, and we find out more about you. So you're
on LinkedIn, we can find out for the Matthew on
linked in.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Yeah, there's a bit more information on the website and
you know, just direct message, and if you're interested in
becoming and spending some time with your team or speaking
in an event, I'm more than happy to do so.
And you know, I think this is a really this
(47:14):
book distills a lot of lessons from you know, a
corporate corporate life, but also you know, me being in
business for myself and working with smaller medium sized businesses,
where interestingly enough, a lot of the lessons apply across
(47:34):
the board. And to your point about you know, small
businesses using AI, I mean the ability for small businesses
to benefit from technology but also changes in the way
they think about their business is huge and I personally
have found it incredibly rewarding being able to sit down
(47:59):
with owners of the business, look at what they're doing,
and then provide some advice that then gets very quickly
implemented so that they can see the results.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
That's the difference, isn't it. It's the ability that they
can execute so quickly. On your outside, this is really
rewarding is that when when that that can happen. So
I totally agree. I think you've been absolutely I set
to any business and I love the book, and the
book can easily blow out to an easy two day retreat,
workshop or a keynote. It's it's got so much in it,
and you've got so much experience from the big, large,
(48:32):
corporate global businesses and also right down to the small
to mediums. So Matthew's been fantastic to pray to catch
up again, it's been between catch ups, but really enjoyed
it and best of luck with the book.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Glad you liked it.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the It's All
Possible Podcast. You can contact me at Rob at Robhardner
dot com or my website or on LinkedIn. Remember to
check out the previous seasons and episodes of the podcast
and the show notes for more details on this episode's guest.
For more inspiration, remember to check out the All Possibility
(49:13):
Players on Spotted By, which contains a collection upbeat, positive
music I use for inspiration through my live performances. Until
next time, Live with passion and a perspective of possibility.
The most successful people in the world all have one
thing in common. They've learned how to think big by
developing a perspective of possibility. And the good news is
we all have the potential to apply the same strategies
to achieve amazing things in our work and lives. Hi,
I'm Rob Hartnett, and as your chief possibility officer and host,
(00:27):
I'm here to inspire you to become the star of
your world as a person of possibility through learning how
people from all areas of life are thinking big and
chasing down their dreams. And once again we have an
astounding guest. I don't know where I get them from,
but they just keep coming along. And this one is unbelievable.
(00:47):
Today I have an incredible guest that author, a lawyer,
a speaker, a consultant. I don't know, there's so much
to him. Is totally one of these people that's definitely
a person of possibility, which you please welcome. Matthew loves it.
How are you, Matthew?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Very well, Thank you very much, appreciate the very kind introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Oh, no problem at all.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Currently, currently you're on your role, you're the principal of
Shability Advisory, but you know, you and I go back,
don't we, my friend, we go we go back, We
go back into your your your unbelievable days. And I
think you are one of the great definitely one of
the great clients of mine, no questions asked. But you're
also an amazing sales leader and leader and leader in
(01:30):
general sperial days at Vanguard. I mean it must be
going back, but probably nine years now, nine maybe nine
years probably coming up.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Started early days when we started at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, and I remember you challenged me, which I
always loved about you and Vanguard, by the way, it
was one of the great clients and ladies and gentlemen.
We used to have a two day workshop when I
was working Millahymon and Matthew said, yeah, I kind of
like that. I kind of like the content, but can
we do it in one? You know? And I'm like,
that's interesting. And the Mela Harman guys I spoke to
(02:05):
and there was a gap on the end of the
phone and they passed out at that point and we
came back and I said, well, I reckon, I can
do it one because I was really up for the challenge.
And we did it. When we started at seven am.
I think in Sydney that first workshop, and what I
really liked about what you did. You set the tone
from the top, and I think from a leader, I've
always reminded that by you, and you set the tone
from the top, and ladies and gentlemen, this was not
(02:26):
a small ask. Matthew said. The prereading is an entire book.
So and to my amazement I read it, went wow,
this will be interesting. To my amazement, Matthew's entire team
read the book and I only read it came to
amazing questions and I just think that was a real
to me that it was an example of your leadership
and also the respect you carried within Vanguard. So all
(02:48):
krudos to you, my friend. And so when you moved
away from Vanguard, you worked a couple of startups. You
were you did this crazy thing which I want to
get into because when you told me about God, you're amazing.
This will be a test though. When you went, you
moved away and you were working for a UK based company,
but you were doing it from Paul mccrarie. M I
(03:09):
right about that, and I think that led you to
some epiphanies in life.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And you round it out and crazy.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You were played all faith in you, but you you,
you did become a mere multel and said, hang onuy
a second, this is tough, and so a few little iterations.
But you've also basically got basically decided to become an author,
which I'm really excited about. And I know that you've
always had it in you. And the books called she Building,
(03:38):
so all got a little photo later on, but you've
got your bility out. Tell me why she building, tell
me why he came to this point. Let's let's start.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
There, starting with the big questions. Yeah, yeah, I think
I always had a book in me, and I've always
obviously loved reading, as you know, and and thrust that
onto various team members over the years. And I think
(04:07):
for me, my love for all things Japan started when
I was five years old and I went to a
small Catholic primary school in Sydney and they offered Japanese
and so I started to get exposed to the language
and the culture and the history. And I think because
(04:31):
it was just such a different set of ingredients, if
you will, I just fell in love with everything about Japan.
And I think as a small child, the mystique and
the imagery associated with the samurai in particular was very intriguing,
(04:55):
and so I think over time, I've just read a
lot about Japanese culture. Obviously lived in Japan when I
went to Japan on exchange when I was fifteen, and
I lived with the host family, went to a high
school Japanese high school, and then I went back to work,
So I've kind of always topped up my interest in
(05:18):
all things Japan. And so, as you rightly pointed out,
my crazy endeavor to work for a fintech in London,
albeit largely doing it from Australia, led to complete burnout,
(05:38):
and I just sat back and reflected on what was
most important to me in my life, and I started.
I think that started the basis for a book. And
then I thought, well, how do I talk about various
things that people find interesting? And so I came up
(06:03):
with the idea of talking about a cultural construct that
is not familiar to most people. And even even in Japan,
very little has been written about shibui. So I'm kind
of excited that I spent a bit of time figuring out, well,
(06:25):
which aspects of shibu should I write about, and then
start the conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, I'm really glad you've also written it, and I'm
quite fascinating. I was fascinated with your background and going.
Actually I didn't know. I knew you would you would
work in Japan, and you had you had a passion
for Japanese culture, but I didn't know the real background.
Didn't know from the five year old and primary school
and then going over there with the host family. And
you may not know this, but my cousin Gina actually
(06:54):
did a very similar thing, and she's went to Japan.
She I think she went there at agent. She must
have been sixteen seventeen and lived with host family, studied law.
She's actually a lawyer and she works in financial services
and she's in London. So there was quite a lot
of connection for me when I was reading your story.
(07:15):
And I know Jenna will be listening to this, So
Hi Jenna, and I hope you enjoyed this with Matthew,
and please feel free. Feel free. If there's anything he
tries to put over me, you can please correct me.
But no, she's great. I'm sure that's why I've already
had this connection with you when you were talking about it.
Why don't you think she's always been written about much
in Japan.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I think it's a concept that it is deeply ingrained
in Japanese culture, but in many respects, maybe it's something
that people kind of just know, you know, like that.
I often think about it in the context of when
(07:57):
you try and teach somebody English or you know your
own mother tongue, and you know, I've got young kids,
and my five year old in particular, is at the
moment just learning various aspects of the language, and she'll ask, well,
why is it pronounced that way or why is it
(08:18):
spelt that way? And I feel really inadequate as a
parent because you end up saying it's just because it is.
And so I think in some respects, shibui is a
bit like that. So there was this shorgun back in
the sixteenth century, Yoshimasa Ashikaga Yoshi Mussa, and he essentially
(08:48):
is known in history as possibly the worst shorgun in
Japanese history. And Donald Keene, who wasn't esteemed American academic
that spent a lot of time understanding the intricacies of
Japanese culture and ended up living there for most of
(09:09):
his life. He wrote a book specifically about Yoshimasa, the
Silver Pavilion in Kyoto, and the impact that he had
on the cultural life of Japan. And he in many
respects set the stage for what is shibui. You know
(09:31):
what aesthetically is considered shibui. And I think this is
the other whist about shibui. It comes from the aesthetic world,
so it's very much tied to the tea ceremony, ibana, pottery, ceramics,
(09:53):
and I've tried to then apply it to life and
business just to make it, you know, even more I
guess complicated in some respects, but that was kind of
the background. And I think sotoetsu Yanagi, just to finish
(10:13):
answering your question, he led the Mingame movement or the crafts,
the folk craft in Japan, so from kind of the
early nineteen hundreds post war. He then established the Japan
Folk Craft Museum in Tokyo, and there's a sister one
(10:35):
in Soul, which actually preceded the one in Tokyo. Anyway,
he's probably one of the few Japanese people that has
written about shibui in English, and I used a research
trip to Japan to go to the museum. I write
about that in the book, Yes, and you know, he
(11:00):
he had an incredible perspective on what was considered shibooi
and also what was considered beautiful. And he had a
view that it came from everyday of people, it didn't
come from machines or automation. So yeah, lots of lots
of really break nuggets from his books and his perspective
(11:24):
and collection.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And so as you apply it to business, what were
the Is this where you're brought in? If I get
to write the Persimon principles, did you bring those through?
Let's talk about that the Persimon principles then, and how
you connected the two. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So, I mean there's no literal translation for shibouy, but
essentially it means a refined simplicity. Yes, and you know,
for a concept that has simplicity at its core, ironically
it's quite complicated to unpack. And so I was talking
(12:02):
to my dad about all of the components, and I
was going to talk about simplicity and subtlety and imperfection
and impermanence, and he said, well, didn't you tell me
that there's a meaning that's tied to a person. So
(12:23):
an unripened person has a stringent taste and so that
in Japanese is called shibu gaki, So there is a
literal connection to persons. Hopefully I didn't extend the connection
too far, but I then wanted to use, you know,
(12:45):
the four leaves on top of a person to then
essentially summarize what shibui means essentially to me an outsider
looking in. And I use simplicity, subtlety, imperfection, and impermanence
(13:07):
as the categories for further conversation about shibui and how
it applies to life and how it applies to business.
And I leave the reader with prompts because I think
some of the most effective and enjoyable business books that
I've read in my life have never really told me
(13:29):
what to do. They've always just provided me with a framework.
Because you know, I kind of believe one that books
find you the right book finds you at the right time.
Oddly enough, yes, and then secondly, it allows you to
then figure out, Okay, at this time, these are the
(13:50):
things that I'm thinking about, either in my life or
in business, or with my team or my partner. And
I'll then take what I want from the book and
then apply it. And I think that's what I hope
to do with writing about Shibut.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
It's a really interesting concept and it just hit me
a couple of ways. The book's timing was quite amazing.
My youngest son I don't think of that, which is lucky.
He's his masters in architecture and so he's just finished
an amazing design. When you're doing your masters, you're basically
close to commercial. When he's actually working on commercial work.
But the elegant simplicity, the impermanence, the subtlety, and what's
(14:32):
really interesting about some of the work he's doing. And
he's using repurpose furniture, and he's looking at how do
you repurpose everything? How do you get stuff off the
street and put it into an apartment building? And so
we're repurposing as much as we can. And as I
look at that, the elegant simplicity has gone behind. But
there's the complexity behind. Elegant simplicity is something that people
(14:53):
often don't appreciate. I see it in I see it
in yacht design. If you actually look at the most
the most successful yachts, easy to sail, easy to do.
The complexity in the thinking that we're into the simplicity
it's fascinating when you lift the lid. I see it
in his architecture. When you look at it as a
(15:13):
as a first person, you go, oh my god, to
layout so simple, so easy. The son comes in here,
but the thinking behind that enables you to appeel back.
And there were so many things on the on the floor.
As you just mentioned, simplicity and subtled in permanent imperfection.
And I think in perfection is a really strong one
in terms of, you know, down the perfection getting the
way of progress. That's we've all heard that and that
(15:34):
makes sense. So I actually see shaubuli in so many
different forms, and more so after I read your book,
I started to see more of it that refined or
refined relegant simplicity. Difficult to do, but you know, when
you see it, that's great.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I'm so happy to hear that that's the impact that
it's had, because I think about if we go back
to soetsu Yanagi. I tried to when I entered the
Japan Folkgraft Museum to put myself in his shoes and
(16:13):
see the collection through his eyes, try and understand, right,
this was his concept of shibui, and so you know,
he was a huge supporter of okinawen linen and dying techniques,
(16:34):
and so you notice in the rooms upstairs that the
curtains are made out of that material, you know. You
notice the very simple but sturdy wooden bookcases that house
a lot of these beautiful ceramic collections. You notice the
really large but cool stone tiles at the base of
(16:57):
the building as you walk in, you know where during
summer and summer in Tokyo for those that have been
is incredibly humid and hot, and so that moment you
walk in to your point about like reuse but also sustainability.
There's no air conditioning, but was cool, right, And so
(17:18):
I think there are so many things that we over
complicate in the modern world. And so for me, if
anybody takes anything from the book, it's trying not to
go down that path, you know, Like I think even
in terms of the business career that I've had and
(17:40):
even the clients that I work with now, we try
and then pair it back to, Okay, well, what is
the core problem that we are trying to solve here? Yes,
because I think there are so many instances and you'll
see this in your world as well, where there's an
attempt one to do too much, and two there's an
(18:02):
attempt to over complicate stuff that doesn't need to be
over complicated.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
One hundred percent. I think that's more and more I
do that. You're exactly writing my world to literally asked
the question work and let me get back to that.
I know what you're looking for, and sometimes it'll even be,
you know, quite prescriptive. I remember quite a large global
role out I did a few years back, interesting with
a large career in tell CA, when we worked hard
(18:29):
to work out with who it was, and they originally
came to us with the solution. They it was our solution,
and you could have easily gone, no problem, let's do
it and you we would have all made money and
it would have been great. It wouldn't have got them
where what they wanted, though, and so we literally had
to pair it back to go, actually, what are you
trying to solve here? Like, thank you for recognizing our brand,
(18:51):
great research, well done. However, you don't know what we know.
I e. We think that's not the right solution you
because we actually have this other stuff that you wouldn't know.
So we need to know what we really peel it
back and the reality of the situation was the people
we were talking to didn't know the why they'd just
(19:13):
been asked to go and get this, and so it
literally talk quite a bit of an investment on my
part and others. What I mean by that is two
trips to solve to meet with people three or four
layers above my pay grade, actually get FaceTime with them
to actually find out the problem. When we got to
(19:35):
the nub of the problem, their solution wasn't right whenever
it worked, and we actually had some good, solid debate
and ended up going from a what was something they
wanted to do over a weekend to being a three
year engagement ten times what they thought they were going
to put in the price. But what we're trying to
(19:56):
solve was something of a magnitude of one hundred x
thousand x was actually their problem. And so when you
peel it back that simplicity, actually, what are you trying
to solve? You because we can do a lot of activity,
Activity doesn't mean solution. It feels good, you haven't got
to the core of it. And I think I like
your That's why I like this book. I think if
you get back to what are you trying to solve
(20:18):
you like, why are we talking? Yes, and so let's
let's really get to that. Let's have that conversation beforehand.
I think that's the elegance of it to come back
and say, Okay, I see what you're doing. Maybe that's impossible,
maybe it's possible. When should we do it? And you
have that kind of rabbus today? I think that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, yeah, so I think I think about, you know,
the business context. I think about the life context, right, yes, yes,
I think when you are so busy and you're doing
lots of things, so the activity is are but you're
not necessarily then having the time to sit back and go, well, actually,
(21:01):
is this leading to my goals being achieved? So, and
I know that it sounds really big and scary, but
I often try and get people to a point to
ask themselves, well, why have you been put on this planet?
What is your purpose? What's your mission, what's your why?
(21:25):
Whatever the question is, or you know, the what's your dream,
the Simon Squibb question. I think they're all really good
questions and if we take the time to sit down
and go, well, you know what this is actually why
I've been put on this planet and then go about
creating an action plan that fits into that. And the
(21:48):
same goes for business, right Like, if your mission and
you and your vision and your values are all aligned,
that's why you know, I happily spent thirteen years of
my life at Banguard because those three things core components
of any business, were all really clear. Yes, And so
(22:11):
I think when those things are in place, like the
fundamental building blocks of life and of business, when they're
all clear, then it's actually really easy to go, oh,
that's not aligned with the business objectives, so let's not
do that.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, so little people do it. So there's a
couple of things to come to my mind as I
spoke through that. A lot of times, people though, will go,
I don't know why I've been put out on this planet.
I'm sure, and I'm super busy. And what I say
to people is is you know, action precedes passion, and
so sometimes you don't know unless you try something out.
(22:50):
And you may also answer that question and go, I
know why I've been put here, it's just because of this.
And I said, well, what have you done about it? Well,
nothing yet, and I go, go do something, because you
may find out you were putting for the particular reason,
and you've had this big dream in your mind and
it might not be right, and I think it's I've
just actually had this beautiful red carpet moment. I didn't
do it, unfortunately, but I saw it with Tom Cruise,
(23:12):
who's doing the whole mission impossible thing. But he said
a really interesting point. I said, what are you doing?
What are you doing these big, big task what do
you do? And he really answered it well, he said,
I write them down. And I'm not afraid to be afraid.
But the most immediate thing I do is get out
of my own head, take action, and I ring somebody,
(23:33):
I call somebody, I do something, I find out. If
I stay in my own head, it'll never happen, and
I'll walk away. But I'm not afraid to be afraid,
and I'm not afraid not to know, and I'm not
afraid to say to any of my team, I don't
know how we're going to do this, and I don't
know whether you know this. But the reason why they didn't.
They've got Dead Reckoning one and two is because the
end of Dead Reckoning one, what they wanted to do
(23:55):
in the submarine sequence is they hadn't invented the apparatus
to do it. That's what they did a part too.
It took them fifteen months to do the underwater scenes.
We've been an apparatus because of what they wanted to do.
Is the answer was, we are now had to film it.
We're going to need to do to the last movie
in two parts. And if you look back, he held
explains it quite well. But getting out of your own here.
(24:17):
So taking action I think in the direction is important.
That's the first one. Second one, we're like on the
business side, and I did a workshop with a company
recently and they had their values up and I said,
you know what, I'm going to kind of just challenge
on the values a couple of them. I don't understand
now that maybe I'm not that smart, but I didn't
quite get them. I think the valguies aren't easy to understand.
(24:38):
Then you've got to question that. And so we did
this values exercise and a number of their personal values
were not aligned to their company values. This is an LT, right,
And then one of the guys in the LT said, look,
I don't think that really matters. We have around personal
values and we have company values. And I just let
it hang, which is hard for me. I've learned something
(25:01):
back you. I let it hang. And while the other
team members said, hang on a second, did we not
say that personal relationships and what's going to differentiate that's
in a call to our business? They went, yeah, yeah,
personal relationships to everything. He said, well, personal relationships to everything.
How on earth can we have personal values different than
our company values? And then there was a silence that
I went, oh, god, that's right, Okay, back to work,
(25:23):
and they got them aligned. But it was a really
interesting debate with people who respected each other, which was
really great. So they felt there was definitely zychological safety
and they can say, you know what, we're misaligned here,
and they just essentially what they did was rescript what
they had, so it was just easier to get it
and they were all aligned. So they felt very comfortable
going forth into the market. Once again, simplicity, but sometimes
(25:44):
there's a little bit of complexity behind the simplicity.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, And I think to your point, right, you've got
to have the tough conversations, and so it's not just
a matter of getting alignment, it's also having the courage
to broach what could be a robust discussion and then
all saying okay, yep, we've had the debate, we've all
(26:10):
put our views forward, and we've now agreed this is
the path forward, no disagreement. Let's let's get this done.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fantastic. Now let's talk about
the book a little more. Now we're going to talk
about the book. That was a big question. You know,
I'm coming from this. You decided to do you wrote
the book backwards, now, lady and Jong Wye, you do
get the books you will is written backwards. Now, Matthew,
to take us through why? I mean, I know why,
(26:39):
but take us through why you decided to write it backwards.
So it starts at the back and goes goes the
way forward.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right it does. Yeah, And you know, I think this
is one of those things that's abart perspective. So if
you go to a Japanese bookstore, every book starts from
the back and finishes at the front. Right.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Well, that's it was. I did not know that first
of all. So that was fantastic you decided to do
it that way? Was I really applaud you for And
as it was that the main reason is because that's
how I think.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
As a result, like, I wanted people to think differently.
So yes, typically an English book is not written from
the back to the front, but I wanted people to
think about their life and about their business differently. Well,
if I want to shock somebody out of the status
(27:32):
quo thinking or the way things that have always been done,
I actually want them to go, what what do you
mean I have to read this from the back? Why
are you thanking the people that helped you get this
book done right at the beginning of the book, you know.
And I've had a couple of people say that it
(27:53):
took them a while even though they knew that you yes,
started from the back, and you know, they can't constantly
kept checking themselves. But I actually that's success in my mind,
because it started a process where people one, you know,
may not have been aware that there are other parts
in the world, you know, I know, you know Asia
(28:17):
in particular, but also many other parts in the Arab
world Muslim world read that way too. So that was
one and then two. It's a great conversation because you know,
if I'm going in and I'm sitting down with a
fifth generation manufacturing business and they've always done it a
(28:39):
certain way, Will I say, well, there are there are
other ways that you could do this, and there might
be simpler, more cost effective ways using technology or using
people in a different way to get different outcomes. So yeah, no,
I think it was worth the that I put everybody
(29:01):
through to get it to the point where it was
back to front.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And I have to ask you a question, how does
you go with the print? It's it's a lovely printed book.
It's a hard hard copy, and yes, and it's a
really well printed did your printers firstly go what that?
And have you said it's the wrong screen?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Doy? So their credit they were, they were really good.
And you know, I you knows, as you've experienced firsthand,
I like to push the envelope on what's possible. So
I actually wanted a slightly different finish. So I didn't
want to have a dust jacket, and so I wanted
(29:37):
the person printed on foil on cloth. And after you know,
various back and forth discussions, they ultimately said, look, it's
not going to end up with the quality finish that
you're after. So then they suggested this Ahlan finish, which
actually has come up really nicely. So all of the
(30:00):
bookshops that I've spoken to and stopped the book with
that they love the finish, and they love the vibrancy
of the orange of the person and on the back
of the white and that's also kind of in keeping
with Shibili, right, Yes, But you know, I think the
designer was also really accommodating and understood, so like right
(30:25):
from the get go, everybody that I worked with was
on the same page, and I think that that helped.
But it certainly would have been easier if I'd just
done what everybody else.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
No, I'm glad you pushed it because I think it's
a really good but you do have to remind yourself
when you're reading it sometimes if I pick it up
or haven't like a couple of days went by, and
pick it up again and go, now, I'm doing that
page first, or that one. But that's even a good
thing because it gets you in the moment of a book.
The other thing I liked about starting at the end
was something that you and I've done in business together
is we've also to say, well, what do we want
(30:56):
to get out of this meeting? What do we want
to get out of this strategy? Let's let's start, let's
begin at the end. Let's you know, what does success
look like, what does a good meeting look like, what
does a good strategy look like? What's a good outcome
for the client? If you think about that, that's exactly
what you've done here. You've gone let's start here and
let's go backwards. So I really like that that consistency
(31:17):
of framework. The question I had for you with when
you're at Vanguard. When you were, you said the principles
were aligned with a great organization for thirteen years you
were there because of that tital line, did you bring
any of did you bring any of shability into your
leadership at Vanguard, even though you might have called shability?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah? Absolutely. I think it's one of those things that
I now have this really neat label, but at the
time I certainly didn't recognize it. You know, I think
if I take the impermanent element of shabui, so nothing
lasts forever. I think there's probably two key facets of
(31:58):
that that I applied both, you know, when I was
a leader of leaders at Vanguard, but also in other
roles where I've led teams or people. So one is
about succession planning and also setting other people up for success.
(32:19):
You know. I think Richard Branson put it well that
his first job whenever he's the CEO of a company
is to find his replacement. And so I've always been
a really firm believer in finding your success at early
and giving them every opportunity to experience what it is
(32:40):
like to do the job that you're doing, so that
it's not a shock when you're asking them to step up.
And I think that's a mistake that a lot of
leaders make. It's like, well, no, this is my seat,
so now I've got to protect the seat. No, You've
got to give yourself the opportunity to do other things,
(33:00):
provide the opportunity for others to step up. So I
think that's one aspect of it. I think the other
really important one, and this kind of is innate in
my personality. So I can never really sit in any circumstance,
whether it be sitting in a coffee shop and seeing
(33:22):
things being done inefficiently or ineffectively, or in a business
broader business context, so it's like, how do you continually
improve and adapt to the changing needs of your customers
or the market. And so I think if you have
this concept in your mind that nothing lasts forever. You're
(33:47):
always thinking, okay, well what's next, and you're never ever
resting on your laurels. And to Vanguard's credit, I think
that was something that was built into the culture. So
even though we got bigger and bigger and there are
trillions and trillions of dollars being managed, I think the
leadership team was always very good at reminding everybody that, hey,
(34:10):
hang on, we're still the scrappy competitor, and so we
don't want larger competitors to eat our lunch, or we
don't want even smaller competitors to think that we're in
any way complacent. So I think they're probably the two
(34:32):
aspects that I applied.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, I think that's I really like that one too.
There's a couple of ones that I'm using in here.
I think way Google does it because some people go, yeah,
I get the concept, but I don't know how to
do it, and if you don't. If you don't, you
don't have an innate ability or that innate drive inside you,
like like I do what you do. I think the
Google way I thought was quite good. And so there's
(34:58):
is this principal seventy twenty ten, which is basically at
all times it's seventy percent working on core, twenty percent
working on stuff with Jason Decor, and ten percent on
off the reservation you know, out there ideas and if
you actually follow that for loss, I've said, eighty twenty
is well, eat twenty works, well, it's only twenty ten
is really interesting. One of the more complex business You
basically you make it part of the DNA of the business.
(35:22):
You know, are we truly we've got a little bit
loose and forgotten about the ten percent? You know, what
are we doing on that ten percent? We've got teams
on that, I think, and that also pair that with
your succession planning one, which I love and I totally
agree with you. It's so rare for me when I
asked the question, so tell me about your emerging leaders program,
(35:43):
and I get sis, I've got we've got leadership pregnant. No,
I said, how's your emerging leaders program? Your high persers,
your high potentials? What are you doing about that? And
so often it's just it's just like it's crickets, it's crickets.
And then they go, God, that makes sense, Like everyone's
so caught up. Yeah, so caught up on things. It's
(36:04):
interesting question for you. For shibui and AI.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
That's a tricky one. You know. Look, I, as you
can see from behind me, I am a traditionalist in
the sense that I still read books in paper. I
do occasionally listen to an audio book if I've got
a long drive. But I think on AI. So if
(36:35):
we pick up on the imperfection element of shibui, it
is strongly grounded in humans being involved in the process. Right,
So a teacup is actually beautiful if it has the
imperfections of somebody's fingers around the bowl. It's not considered
(37:03):
any less beautiful because of those imperfections. And I think
there are many aspects where highly manufactured processes lead to
a perfect teacup, but it's not necessarily considered shibui. Yes,
And so like my sense on the AI thing is
(37:27):
it's a bit like anything in life that everything's on
a spectrum. And to me, it's a bit like the
debate that we had around remote working. You know, there
was those that said everybody had to go back to
the office, and then there's those that said all remote
is fine. You know, nothing in between, and we settle
(37:49):
on something in between, right, and so I think with AI,
we've got two very similar positions. You know, those that
are saying it's going to save everything, you know, save
our future generations, save the world, and then there's people
that say it's the worst thing that we could ever
(38:09):
have been invented. I think it's an incredibly powerful tool,
but I think we've got to be careful. I reflect
on the research trip that I did to Turkyo and
Kyoto for Shibui, and I spent many a day in
(38:29):
Kyoto walking around temples, and many were far away from
the center of town, and on those walks, largely alone,
I contemplated so many aspects of shibui from a historical
and cultural perspective, but also spiritual. And I think, you know,
(38:55):
talking about AI, I don't even think we've got a
good handle on our own brains as human beings. I
don't think we've we've really scratched the surface in terms
of the research. So I kind of feel a little
uncomfortable venturing down a path where we're embracing artificial intelligence
(39:21):
when we haven't, necessarily, in my view, got a full
handle on human intelligence.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Such a great point. I really like that point. I
think there's also a couple of angles on it as well,
which I from a business perspective, I think, I think
there's some connections to shebility. And one was I heard
from a conference just the other week at Matt Coleman
at CBA made the point he said, this is the quote,
(39:51):
I'll try and get it right, which is every task,
every person, every day. Let's consider whether that can be
done with AI or not.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I like the simplicity of that because there is a
lot of Again, is there is there a place for it?
Which is really the question?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And and in the ceo I forgot his name there,
he's the CEO of Shopify came out a similar one
and said, before you ask me for any resources, can
I can I AI do it? And again it's again
it's not saying and there was. And again of course
that quote was taken out of context to your point
was like, oh, he's trying to replace everybody. Well no,
(40:31):
he actually wasn't. He was just simply saying, at the
speed it's evolving, can we focus our human intelligence in
a place where where they're more human intelligence is more
warranted as opposed to it. So I think where the
spectrum is a nice one to look at it, but
I think we'll get down that path because there is
there is, there's no question there's some things that I
(40:51):
use the Forum'm sure you use the form what I've
been what's really fascinating. No one's really picked up in
the media, but my colleague Ross Cameron, who does a
lot of research in small businesses e runs a small
business research company, is finding the take up of AI
and small business is unbelievably high, right because you've got costs,
and you've got people, and you've got on a small
business level, it's really high and it makes complete sense
(41:14):
why it's like that, But no one's really picked that
up in the media yet. So it's it's an interesting space.
But I actually do think there's some connections to shability
with it, and whereas most people would say, oh, there's
not it's more complex, it's more this. Well, actually, if
you go back to your principles before you mentioned and
you stay with those four, I think there's there's more connection.
But will any time will tell daily habits for shability?
(41:37):
What can we do? What can people do it to
introduce SHABII and the principles into their daily lives more.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, I think on that front, there's quite a lot actually,
So if you go through each of the components, you
know there's there's questions that I ask the reader that
will lead to pe people thinking through, well, hang on,
how can I incorporate this into my daily life? And
(42:07):
there's really simple ways. So I kind of think about
that comment that map common have made around the use
of AI. If we can use technology to make our
lives easier and better, and I think most importantly from that,
(42:27):
we can get more human qualities. So if your doctor
is spending more time with you empathizing with your situation,
or if it's your financial planner that's sitting down with
you and helping you discover your why, you know there
are there uniquely human things. And so I think about
(42:53):
it in the context of daily rituals like post COVID,
never really felt like I needed to get out and
have a walk or anything like that, but COVID certainly
left that mark on me and our family and that
every day I have to get out and I'm very
(43:14):
fortunate to live close to the beach, so I always
go to the beach, and that for me is a
daily ritual that feels very SUBI because it's a simple
thing I can do, but it has a massive impact
and huge benefits to mental health the other things. And
this kind of forces you to change your mindset. So
(43:37):
a bit like reading a book from back to front.
So mundane tasks, So i'ming school uniforms for the kids
or washing the dishes rather than thinking of them as chores.
Use it as an opportunity to almost treated as a
(43:59):
meditation and don't think about anything else. Right, So there's
a quote that I use in the book about washing up.
Just think about washing up, and it's I know it
sounds really simple and stupid in some respects, but it
(44:20):
is incredibly powerful. And so for me, I know you're
the same. How do you create a new habit? It
has to be simple and you have to repeat it
over and over again, and if you don't do it
really early on, the likelihood is that you won't change
(44:40):
your habits. And so there in my mind the simple
things that I take from Shibui that I that I
do and enjoy as a result.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, I think that's a really good one and a
great one to think about just enjoying that but also
taking the time to really enjoy the moment, and then
that's something there. It sounds easy, but it's really hard
to do. And I was doing some sailing, but I
hadn't done for a long time because of an injury.
But I was out there sailing on the weekend. I
just really enjoyed the moment. I wasn't thinking too much
(45:12):
about the trim or my arm or the issue at hand.
I actually was like, God, this is actually a really
nice day and I'm actually really enjoying being present.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yes, right now. It's massive.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
If you can do it, and if you can do
it on it, if you can make it a habit
to do that, try and get a bit of joy
and the everyday thing you're doing, it is actually a
big shift. I know that might seem crazy for some people,
but the great thing about it is you said you
can apply us to hoover out. What what are you're doing?
You're washing up, doing the ironing, you're going for a
cycling game, for a run, and walking the dog. And
one of my good friends says that when he's walking
(45:45):
his dog, he never wears Zip's air pods or anything
like that because that's his dog's time. And he says,
I want to be at one with my dogg it's
unfair to him that I put in my headphone sees
dog goes are good and I was going to have
to chat, you know, and so he goes, it's my
dog's time. And I love that thinking because that's that's
that's the kind of example, isn't it that we take
the moment to be the person you're with or the
(46:06):
animal you're with to really get the joy out of it. Now,
tell me how can we find how can people find shability?
So where where where is it? Is it? Yes?
Speaker 2 (46:14):
So they can get them directly from my from my website.
So shibuy is s h I b u I Advisory
dot com. Or there's three great independent bookstores that have
kindly added it to the shelves, so Avenue Books in Melbourne,
Betty Loves Books in Newcastle and book Face in Port Macquarie.
(46:38):
I'm having discussions with some other bookstores as well, but
they're for the moment, moment available because.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Okay, and we find out more about you. So you're
on LinkedIn, we can find out for the Matthew on
linked in.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Yeah, there's a bit more information on the website and
you know, just direct message, and if you're interested in
becoming and spending some time with your team or speaking
in an event, I'm more than happy to do so.
And you know, I think this is a really this
(47:14):
book distills a lot of lessons from you know, a
corporate corporate life, but also you know, me being in
business for myself and working with smaller medium sized businesses,
where interestingly enough, a lot of the lessons apply across
(47:34):
the board. And to your point about you know, small
businesses using AI, I mean the ability for small businesses
to benefit from technology but also changes in the way
they think about their business is huge and I personally
have found it incredibly rewarding being able to sit down
(47:59):
with owners of the business, look at what they're doing,
and then provide some advice that then gets very quickly
implemented so that they can see the results.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
That's the difference, isn't it. It's the ability that they
can execute so quickly. On your outside, this is really
rewarding is that when when that that can happen. So
I totally agree. I think you've been absolutely I set
to any business and I love the book, and the
book can easily blow out to an easy two day retreat,
workshop or a keynote. It's it's got so much in it,
and you've got so much experience from the big, large,
(48:32):
corporate global businesses and also right down to the small
to mediums. So Matthew's been fantastic to pray to catch
up again, it's been between catch ups, but really enjoyed
it and best of luck with the book.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Glad you liked it.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the It's All
Possible Podcast. You can contact me at Rob at Robhardner
dot com or my website or on LinkedIn. Remember to
check out the previous seasons and episodes of the podcast
and the show notes for more details on this episode's guest.
For more inspiration, remember to check out the All Possibility
(49:13):
Players on Spotted By, which contains a collection upbeat, positive
music I use for inspiration through my live performances. Until
next time, Live with passion and a perspective of possibility.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.