August 23, 2024 • 57 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
What else can't you see as your.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Yes, Oh, I think he was hit first. I think
the first shot fired in Dealey Plaza hit the President
in the back. We have testimony from Roy Kellerman, who
was his Secret Service agent, a man who had many
(00:27):
years experience with the Secret Service. Sitting in the right
front of the limousine. He testified that he heard that
Boston accent say my god, I'm hit. Well, according to
the Warring Commission, the first shot hit the president in
the throat. Well, we know from UH medical reports that
(00:52):
the voice box was destroyed. He never said anything if
that was the first shot. But I think the first
shot hit him down lower in the banne and he
probably did say my god, I'm hit, which caused people
to begin turning slightly to see what's happened. I think
(01:13):
the second shot was from the front. Now this, this
is who did first shot come from? You? I I
I think it's entirely possible it came from the school
of depository shake the floor. I'm not sure of that.
If it uh, I'm not even certain that Oswald was
on the sixth floor or that he shot anything. I'm
(01:35):
not certain that the man liquor car can acquired anything
that day and twelve, but it if something was fired
that day by Oswald from the sixth floor, I think
it's the The one shot is the one that hit
Kennedy in the back, and if that happened, it's my
opinion that Lee immediately or whoever handled that gun immediately
(01:59):
wiped the trans from it and hit it in that
nest of books. I think the second shot came from
the front, and it's possible that it was from the sewer.
And I'm not one of these who believes that the
joint ste chiefs of Staint were lined up in the
sewer or behind the picket fence, but I do think
(02:23):
that someone could have been in that sewer and fired
with a say a small caliber target pistol. They would
have had a direct view of the president's throat. And
I put my son in the sewer on the Thanksgiving
day of nineteen sixty seven and he took pictures as
(02:46):
my other boy drove a car around, and I would say,
get it right here, get it right here, And he
did a very good job. Now, if you can sight
with a camera and take a picture, I think it's
how well he could have pulled off a shot from
the sewer. I think this I as I say, the
second shot hit the president in the throat from the front,
(03:11):
and possibly it was from the UH sewer. Then I think, uh,
a shot went wild and hit the underpass, ricocheting down
there now not at Elm Street, but at Main Street.
Uh uh almost half a block away where Jim t
was standing, and he was slightly injured when that got ricochet.
(03:35):
That could not have been one ricochete or from the
car though, W And that means a shot hit way
down there. And Uh, I'm not sure where that came from.
It might have been from the roof of the depository,
it might have been from uh the down tax building.
I don't know where that shot came from. Then I
(03:59):
think a shot hit kindly. Kindly by this time has turned,
he's holding his hat in his and he's turning to
see what happened in the back seat, and I think
he was hit. And it came down and threw the chuck,
threw the chan well from it hit right up in here.
It came out and and uh at a hangle. And
(04:25):
then I think, almost simultaneously a shot came from the rear,
and I definitely believe this came from the Diopans building,
second or third floor. A shot hit the President in
the right rear occipital bone. And when you view the
zapruder film, you see a slight movement forward. Uh, a
(04:49):
slight jerk forward?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Is that the jerk at three twelve right?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
And then almost simultaneously from the front with a high
powered rifle and obviously a rangeable bullet. He was hit right,
he was going down, and it hit him right here
and blew the back of the head out. And you
see drawings with this part of the head blown out,
and but you never see one with the exact back
(05:17):
of the head blown out. And a young man whose
father was Marion Jenkins, a doctor at Parkland who helped
work on Kennedy, said they could lift the what was
left of the brain from that cavity in the back
of the head without even making an incision. Now, this
(05:39):
boy stood in my kitchen right here where we are now.
He stood right there and told me that that his
father came home and said that it was horrible at
the back of the head was blown out. Well, no
medical man or anyone with intelligence is going to call
this part of the head the back of the head.
(06:00):
It would say top of headside of head, front of head,
never back of head. But Marion Jenkins told his family,
we lifted what was left of the brain from that cavity.
It was so large, in fact, that she's uh Jackie
says she saw this his hair being blown off the
(06:21):
back of his head. And I think, uh, those are
in my estimation the shots I see.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Where do you think uh ce three ninety nine came from?
Was it an implant?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Oh? Right, I have two and I do not know.
I have two theories on that, and I waver between
the two. I think it might have been a plant
put on, and of course a good uh way to
have had that uh bullet planted three ninety nine, the
pristine bullet. Just prior to the arrival of the President
(07:04):
at Elman Houston, a young man named Jerry Belknap the
elk Nap, was standing in the crowd uh on uh
their own Elm Street, just uh west of Houston. They
had ambulances posted at various spots along the UH parade
(07:26):
route for emergencies in in case the President anything happening
with they certainly, I don't think we're thinking of hostibility
of assassination. They were thinking of heart attack or stroke
or anything it to someone in the presidential motor case.
And there was an ambulance very close to the underpass there.
(07:51):
But just prior to the president's arrival, a young man
named Jerry Belknap had what they called an apple electic
seizure and he he just became will He had a seizure,
and they used the ambulance, which would have ordinarily been
(08:13):
used for the president under normal circumstances, I mean, just
some illness. They used that ambulance to take Jerry Beltman
to the hospital. They took him to Parkland. They took
him into the emergency round at Parkland, and he got
up and walked away. Now, this man could have placed that.
(08:34):
I mean, now this is certainly slanderous to say this,
and I don't know, but I think they should have
questioned Jerry Beltman which question before he was not. No,
he never even made an affabated that. They never asked
him anything. So I certainly think this man should have
been asked something. His doctors should have been questioned, he
(08:57):
should have been examined. And maybe those electronencephalographic referral to
has something to determine did this man have epilepsy? Was
it Petty Mall or Grandma? Uh? Something more should have
been done about this in view of the fact that
three ninety nine showed up. Now, if that, if three
(09:20):
ninety nine showed up legitimately as a part of the
episode that day, I think it had to be the
the one that was fired from the man liquor carcano
with so little power that it wouldn't even penetrate. That
(09:42):
gun was in such poor condition, and I think the
y if you'll remember in the uh a fingerling deep now,
that old bullet wouldn't even go in, and so consequently
it was lodged in there. Caught we caught in the
(10:02):
clothing and in the wound, and in the moving and
artificial respiration and all of the things they were doing.
I don't know what they did, but what they did
to Kennedy, it would have fallen out on the stretcher
and as they moved him from one place to another.
Here was this bullet. Now, I do not think it found.
(10:22):
There is no possibility. I've held three ninety nine in
my hand, and it would be it would create a
cause poor old Marian Johnson to had a heart attack
if he knew that, but I did. I held that
in my hand in the National Archives. And on November
twenty second, nineteen sixty three, I knew very little about
(10:46):
guns and ammunition. You could have showed me a rifle
and a shotgun and I wouldn't have known which was which.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I would not have known a revolver from a machine
machine gun practically, and today and now I am fairly
expert for a woman, UH with with guns and ammunition.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And I saw that I held that billet that village had.
I don't think it had ever looked like a testability
right correct.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
It's also true that there was an unidentified CIA agent
at part from that days there.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
He certainly didn't There was an unidentified uh UH they
they did not identify, and he came in, showed his
UH credentials and said this is my friend, and never
identified him. We don't even know who the other man was.
There were two men who entered about UH between one
(11:44):
and one thirty, and we don't know who they were,
where he came from. We were not aware that the
CIA had people here at all.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Is it also true that kennedy body was literally taken
by force from Parkland Hospital.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Absolutely, that body was forcefully removed over the protest of
all of the Dallas law enforcement officials. This was in
November of sixty three. It was not a federal crime
to assassinate a president. It was a federal crime to
(12:24):
attempt to assassinate a president, but they had no federal
laws to cover assassination of a president. Therefore it became
a Texas crime. This was in November of sixty three.
This was strictly.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
A crime in under the jurisdiction of the state of Texas,
and that body should not have been removed until all
the proper procedures, the top seed and everything was done
to Satheast nine, Texas law, and the decision was made
(13:08):
immediately to remove.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
The body to to Washington. And they forcefully, I mean
it was almost fist fights, knocking people down. They wheeled
that body. You know that, right, I know that. Sorry, fact,
they forcefully removed the body. And then it is my
opinion that they, with equal disregard for the rights of
(13:32):
the state of Texas, they removed all investigatory procedures from
our Texas law.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
M okay. The morning of the assassination, Oswald and Fraser
drove to the Texas school.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Book Depository from Irving.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Texas Strait and in a bag.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
There's some question as to whether he.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Had the assassination weapon or some curtain rods.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
There's some question in my mind as to whether he
had anything except a lunch bag. But if he had
a bag that was capable of carrying either curtain rids
or a gun broken down, I'm a little bit inclined
to believe the boy's story that day that it was
curtain rids. And I know that Lee was capable of
(14:35):
stretching the truth or evading the truth, because we have
his interview in New Orleans and the fact that he
would tell Carlos bringere, I am anti castro. May I
help you train your men, and then go out on
the street with procastro signs and the hate like he did.
(14:57):
He was capable of of uh a deception. But I
am a little bit inclined to beneath the curtain ride
story if he had a bag at all other than
lunch back. For this reason, M both Lenny may Randall
and your Wesley Fraser gave an example that he carried
(15:23):
the package cumped in his hand with his his the
palm of his hand, his fingers cupped around it, and
it was up under hi the arm pet. Now, of
course we have some discrepancy in the actual length of
the gun itseld. What he ordered and what he got
(15:45):
were two different things. If he actually ordered and if
he actually received that gun, we we have no receipts.
He did not sign anything to get that gun from Wa.
We never were able to determine the boring commission wasn't
who actually picked up the guy?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Did he ever say a receipt for his pistol?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Go? And this is completely I have you ever gone
and picked up a package at a post office? You
had to sign for it. They will not release it
to you unless you sign for it. Well, uh now,
if it had been five years or something like that,
(16:26):
I would have understood the disappearance of this uh receipt.
But this was less than a year. This was about
uh well, March, from March till November. I cannot believe
that the post Office, I mean today, I could accept
anything wrong with the post Office. I think we'd be
(16:47):
better off the Pony Express. But uh then we had
fairly good service from the post Office, and I think
they would have kept that receipt those receipts. But oh,
another thing, back to the curtain riding story. You have
seen in my home pictures that I know were taken
(17:09):
the afternoon, late afternoon of the twenty second are the
twenty third. Now, the people who the Black Star people
are not certain whether. I mean, we can't seem to
get a straight answer. They took pictures the afternoon of
the twenty second, they took pictures the afternoon of the
twenty third. One of those two days, Missus Roberts was
(17:30):
hanging curtains, putting up curtains in his room. Now, I
cannot believe that they would change the curtains and put
up curtain rides and change the curtains, oh to accommodate photographers.
I think they would have left that room like it was.
(17:53):
But you have seen pictures where they are putting up curtains.
I think they were trying to make that closet look
a little more habitable. I don't think there were curtains there.
I think leeve could possibly.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Have one of curtains.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, the curtains in there too, because it was you
could just look right in from the outside. It was
a closet that had been converted to a room. And
I think that is very interesting and more questions should
have been asked. Were there curtains in that room? Why
did you put up curtains? Uh? Were there curtain rise?
(18:33):
I And I think this, this makes me doubt that
he actually carried the gun. He denied it, of course,
but we can't take he he was going to deny
everything that day.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Certain in your opinion, What intelligence connections, if any, did
Oswald have?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I believe and I can't prove this. Ah, and when
when I can give you documentation for something y you know,
and most of the things that I tell you, I
can say this is in volumes on so page so on,
so this is here or there, But I can't Uh,
this afp appidated to the MBI proves this. Are certainly
(19:18):
opposing his cousin, Marilyn Dorothy Murat. They are still classifying
material about her. Uh missus Oswald. Marguerite Oswald's sister, Lidian
Clavery Murat had a daughter, Dorothy oh Marylynd Dorothya Neurrat.
(19:41):
And this girl who had a very strange and career.
She worked her way around the world teaching student. Now
I don't know how many languages she spoke and what
kind of schools she taught in, but this is never
(20:04):
made quite clear. There are some documents still with Harold
more than twelve years following the assassination regarding Maryland Dorothy Murat.
One document is Ray Maryland, Dorothy Murat and Harold R. Isaacs, Boston.
(20:27):
I believe it's April fourth of nineteen sixty four. Now,
this Harold R. Isaacs was one of the China boys
accused of being Communist, and he comes from that background
and goes into Massachusetts Institute of Technology. And I cannot
(20:47):
verify this, but I have been told that MIT is
a quote hotbed of CIA activities. Back in the thirties
and forties, we were told that the University of Chicago
was a hotbed of communism. I don't know what it
is today. It's a very fine university, but we in
the South were told, oh, don't send your children there
(21:09):
because that's a hotbed of communism. Today we are told
that m is a hot bed of CIA activity, and
Harold R. Isaacs is very prominent there. Now, what would
there be about a little school teacher from New Orleans,
A first cousin of Lee Harvey Oswald. That would make
(21:33):
her so important that at a document regarding Marylynd, Dorothy
Immat and Harold R. Isaacs would still be classifying today.
John Pick was in Japan in October of nineteen sixty three.
John Pick was Lee Harvey Oswald's half brother. He claims
(21:56):
that Maryland Dorothy of your Red came to visit him
in Japan in October and in the conversation he said,
what do you hear from Lee? And she said, oh,
he's in Russia. Didn't you know? And it had not
been made public at that time that Lee was in Russia. Now,
(22:20):
if this is true, she had some inside knowledge. Now
I have wondered if possibly, Marilyn Dorothy, you're at recruited
Lea for the CIA. You see his strange discharge. His
(22:43):
mother was injured and when I say injured, a candy
box fell on her nose on December the eighth of
nineteen fifty eight while Lee was at home.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Now you know that to be true because you've met
the mother many times.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And well, I do not take her word for it.
I would not. However, let me say I do think, uh,
she is an impossible human being. But she is intelligent.
She isn't don't believe the stories that she's insane or
she and so far I had found her to be
very truthful. Now when she accuses you of mistreating her,
(23:20):
or not properly taking care of her, not getting her
enough money, these things, of course, I'm not considering when
I say, but truthful about her relationship with her children
and the government. I think Marguerite is truthful. Oh no,
I'm going by doctor's AFFI davits in the twenty six
(23:42):
volumes and in documents that have been released since nineteen
sixty seven, Marguerite was injured. She worked in a for
King Candy Company in Cox Department store in Fort Worth
in December of nineteen fifty eight. Lee was home on
leave December eighth of nineteen fifty eight, a box, a
(24:07):
candy box fell on her nose. It did not require
treatment medical treatment. She didn't even go to a doctor.
For a month. After Lee was gone back to the Marines,
she had went to a doctor and I'm my memory
may not serve me right. I believe his name was
doctor Goldford, but that may be another doctor she consulted later.
(24:30):
But she did go to a doctor in January of
nineteen fifty nine for treatment of this UH nose injury,
and he gave her some medication, drained her sinuses or
something alright. From January until August, apparently she is in
(24:51):
fairly good health. But in August seventeenth, Lee wrote a
letter to the Marines requesting a hardship discharge to go
home and take care of his ailing mother who has
been injured by a box falling on her nose. Months
have passed and right, and I almost well. From December eighth,
(25:15):
nineteen fifty eight til August seventeenth of nineteen fifty nine,
he requested a hardship discharge. There were five letters that
passed back and forth between UH, the powers that be
in the Marine Corps. Where are we going to to
let this boar go? He had he would not ordinarily
(25:38):
have been discharged until December. That would have his enlistment
would have been up. Then he had almost four months
of of of his enlistment remaining. On September fourth, he
has not been discharged. But he goes to Santa Anna
(25:59):
and apply a passport. He listed all these countries He's
going to visit, Finland, all the Russia, all these countries,
and he uses instead of a birth certificate at the
bottom of the application, he uses the number for his
(26:20):
inactive Marine Corps reserve number. He is that certain now
that passport was issued. He got it in his hands
on September tenth, one day before he is discharged on
the eleven, and he came to Texas. Marguerite apparently knew
(26:42):
he was only even though he's coming home on hardship discharge.
To take care of her. She borrowed a rollaway bed
from her landlord to accommodate her son, who is going
to quote be here a few days. He stayed three days.
(27:06):
He withdrew two hundred dollars from a Fort Worth bank
that he had deposited in December of fifty eight. It
had drawn three dollars interest. He took that and he
left the New Orleans. Now at the same time, we
know that on March the eleventh of nineteen fifty nine,
(27:32):
a man named Flynn with the f VIENNA approached Jack
Ruby and asked him to be an informer for the FVN,
and apparently Jack agreed. They did not contact him again
throughout March, and they went till the twenty eighth of
(27:55):
April before they interviewed him again in his role as informants.
They went all drough May. They didn't talk to him
at all Dury May, but starting in June July August
they are contacting him every two weeks MM, which is
far more frequently than most FBNI informants are a question
(28:18):
that it's every forty five days normally, not less often
than forty five days, now more often than thirty days
unless something hot is going on now. In September, the
last of August, he apparently made a trip to Cuba.
In September he made he went to New Orleans and
(28:40):
made another trip to Cuba. In September, Oswald goes to
New Orleans. He uh has travel arrangements made by the
travel agency in the International trademark using Louis Hopkins, the
exact same travel agent who arranged all of clay Shaw's
trap and by the admission of the Ciamen, only knowledgeable
(29:07):
travelers went to Russia through Helsinki, but his travel arrangements
were were made by someone who was very knowledgeable. In September,
both Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald were in New Orleans,
one leaves for Russia and one for Cuba. By October tenth,
(29:31):
Oswald has reached hell Sinky. By October second, Ruby is
back in Dowland and the ATV release him for a
lack of productivity. Is that Commission document ten fifty two right?
CD ten fifty two. Now it does not give the
(29:55):
different dates. That's a different document CD seven third. Wait,
let me get it for exactly it is. It's CD
seven thirty two, J one and two, and it gives
the exact dates. See d UH ten fifty two does
not give the dates. It it admits that there were
nine times that Oswald was contacted. Uh, there is another
(30:19):
document CD four, pages one fifty five to one fifty nine,
which is sort of upholds is but the important one.
The important ones are CD ten fifty two and CD
seven thirty two j pages one in two giving the dates. Now,
I told you that the first contact was March eleventh,
nineteen fifty nine. Second contact was they didn't contact him
(30:43):
anymore through March and and then they went all the
way through April two. April twenty eighth they contacted him
for the second time. They didn't contact him at all
in May, but June fifth they contact him for the
third ten then they contact him again. The reason I've
(31:07):
missed one, I just went third oh June eighteenth, June fifth,
June eighteenth, that's christing that both. Then they contact him
July seventh for the fifth time, then the twenty first
for the sixth time. Then in August they contacting the
(31:31):
seventh time August sixth, the eighth time August thirty, the
eighth time August thirty booth, and they don't tell nothing
at all. During September. I believe I told you that
August twenty eighth or so he went made to the Cuba.
(31:51):
We're uncertain of that, but we believed you did that.
There's some place in that he made by first shot
tip that one might is right that all the thirty
first they contacting to the h twent Thatchmbert is in
New Orleans and Cuba. September ihold is in New Orleans
and own his way to Rust, and October seventh they
(32:16):
contact leaders for the final towns. They don't leave him.
I think they don't leave him anymore.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Do you think the government uh these documents that state
what those contacts were about.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I oh, I k now whether or not they ever
leave the archives is a different.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Matters, but there's someone.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
See I'm aware that there are that notes that the
FBI destroyed. That'sin's the only thing that didn't leave the archives.
There were two other items that we have receipts where
the FBI took them from the Dallas Police and the
f the National Archives. I also have letters from the
National Archives, and we don't have those. We're gone.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
What do you think about her notes that we delivered
to the FBI and then subsequently destroyed.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, I have pretty firm opinions on this, and I
can't exactly document. On July sixteenth, nineteen sixty two, John
Doudge is Fain, an FBI agent, and fort Worth went
(33:29):
to Lee's home to interview him. He sat in front
of his home for over two hours interviewing Lee. Now,
when we've got the friendship of the January twenty second
or twenty seven exegetation of the wine Commission, even Alan
(33:56):
duwis I believe, he says, nobody can't believe that's always
talked about. Go over two hours. The same report was
so chorances and he said that two hours talking to him. Now,
that afternoon Lee went and paid his rent, which was
late overdue, he had no money. I believe God does
(34:17):
the same tiredly for an informant in the report, he's
gonna say he that Lee was cooperative and offered to
call him if he sold had tried to contact him
or anything. I think now, if we are to believe
that this sullen, uncooperative FBI hated Young, money was what
(34:39):
they'd changed he was, I don't believe that he would
have cooperated and said yes lad, he was given money.
I think that same gave him task that afternoon, and
he went and paid his rents now family retired from
the FBI in October of nineteen sixty and turned the
(35:01):
fowl over to James G. Hosty in and Hosty apparently
was rabidly anti communist, a rabid right winger and a
person am a right winger myself, but I think this
man respected that if you didn't stand up and chounce
(35:25):
for dooma content for George Wallace, and I'm not really
attending to compose to, but I think anyone who was
less of those who host he considered him to be
conn and he considered that same had hired a Russian
agent and it was his life's work to prove this
(35:48):
man a Russian agent he knew rarely was working. He
could go down there and talk to him and question
him and badger him. But he chose how to do that.
He considered it would be better to go out there
and badger those two women and possibly if he kept
at it long enough, one of them would break down
(36:09):
and if met old. Yes, Lee is in touch with
the Kremlin every other day, so he kept going out there. Now,
to the Wiring Commission, he testified that he did not
want to go around the man's face of business and
in barrassed him. Well, he didn't hesitate a moment to
go to Saint Mark's Students where Louis Payne worked. He
(36:31):
didn't hesitate a moment to go to bar helicopter about
Michael Payne. Why would he be so considerate of this
what he thought to be a Rushan agent. So he went.
He maybe keipts out there, and Lee got enough and
he went down when he seemed to Irving and found
(36:55):
out that these women he had their question again on
November fir By Hostess. He went down. I think he
went on the age of November he went down to
the FBI office and I think he asked for hostess,
and I think they said he's in me out in
(37:16):
the fields working. And Lee said, you tell him to
leave my wife alone. If he doesn't, I'm going to
report him to Washington to my superiors. I'm working up
for you people too. And now I don't if he
thinks that I'm behind his back trying to shut up
(37:39):
some fdccs of chapter here in dialas. I'm tired of this.
I'm doing what few people told me to do. Et Te.
Now all of this is fromagin On. My party got this, remember,
but it makes sense. It makes sense, And I think
the FBI said, oh, don't pay anytention to host you.
You you know, he's studdy. We're not interested in what
(38:03):
do you do? You just do what you're told to
do for us, and do you do anything you're The
next day he writes the letter to the Russian embassy
and he starts a parent rank with the FBI is
no longer interested in my Aevnthy. That's in the letter
of November nine that he wrote a mess at Cane House.
Now in volume one, page I believe it's either thirty
(38:29):
seven or fifty seven. In Volume one, Marina testifying to
the Whine Commission on February fourth, nineteen sixty four, that
Mindy said he went to their building to the FBI,
but I thought he was a brave rabbit. I didn't
believe it. In Volume three Thanges eighteen and nineteen and twenty,
(38:51):
Leve Came says that owns November nine, when he was
talking to her Saturday, he told her he went to
the FBI and left a note for hostees. But Ruth
Came said, I later found out that wasn't truth. Well,
who could have proven to her it wasn't true except
(39:13):
the FBN. So they had discussed that and they live
to it now. It's my opinion that even in nineteen
sixty three or today, if you went down to the
FDI office and triatened to blow the place up or
burn it or kill somebody, So if they would send
you in, let them work before dark tonight or in
(39:36):
sling till the girl well TM of me. This just
never happened. All of the testimony, no sea people who
saw the notes have agreed on what the notes said.
I think the note merely said, stray away from my life.
If you want to place to me about anything, come
down you talked to me. I don't think it said anything.
(39:59):
I think it any brand in it was a threat
to report to jegor Hoover or someone in Washington that
this man was mispreating his family, or something to that effect.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
You previously mentioned to me that in information about some
other ambush points in Dallas besides Peter Cross, Well.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
We had no absolute proof on any of it. Found
in Lee's possessions were some pictures General Walker in the
back of General Walker's home. Now, Lee they claimed tied
him in with the April ten, nineteen sixty three shooting
(40:47):
at General Walker's home. Oh, we didn't hear about this.
Marine is the one who brought his fad. But there
were also pictures of the railroad presso right down very
near General Walker's home. ID and these pictures indicate that
(41:11):
Lee was down here around Turtle Creek and Lemons right
down here taking pictures. Now, that would have been an
ideal site for ambush. You've got Turtle Creek running along
the head right and see where he turned there with
a high powered rifle from that railroad overpast underpast. I
(41:32):
never can determine whether you when you go under something.
It's called an underpast, or whether the train going over
it makes it an overpast. I never have whatever. Yeah,
but this thing down here would have been an ideal
sight for ambush. You've got Turtle Creek a lot of shrubbery. Firstly, pospulated.
(41:54):
I think that whoever plans this thing and plans to
emplay Lee Harvey Eifelow and don't misunderstand, I'm not sure
that he wasn't involved, but I am almost certain he
didn't know exactly what was going to come off, and
certainly had no idea that he would not walk away
from it a free name.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
In other words, you would by the statement that Oswald said,
I'm just a pasty when I have.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
The recordings from that night, his first radio press TiSER
and they're talking to him about Tippet and he says,
I didn't shoot anybody. And they say, well, did you
kill the president? And he says, nobody has even said
anything to me about that. Oh, I see, I am
(42:44):
just a pasty. I'm just a pasty. What if Oswell
had no idea that the president was actually going to
be killed. If you'll remember when Truman was shot at
by the Puerto Ricans and they killed one of his
guards at Blair House. Truman's popularity was that it's about
(43:07):
as low an ebb as it ever was. He had
threatened to take over the railroads to keep them from striking,
and that certainly alienated the left. He had brought MacArthur home,
which alienated the right. He just about didn't have any
friends at voting friends. And then the Puerto Rican shot
(43:30):
at him and killed one of his guards, and the
American people rallied around him, and he went in by
a landslide like the country had never seen since Roosevelt
thefore right. And what if the Bonnie Kennedy was a
shrewd young man and he certainly had contact with Discis
(43:52):
and FBI men who did not like it. Had to
be somebody planning this thing, who knew every move that
this man was going tonate every move where he was
going to be every minute. What if Bobby decided that
because of the Bay of Pigs and the mental crisis
(44:13):
and the Vedma kitchen debate, and Kennedy had not come
off too well in these things, what if Bobby decided
that that if there were a fate assassination attempts to
perform that against his brother, the American people would rally
around him and he would go in and sixty four
(44:34):
with the landslide to prove we didn't want him kill
And what if Bobby used discisonts, FBI men and government men,
But what is the CIA took real a mission behind
to pick a sense. Now we heard later that there
(45:04):
was a gunman arrested in Todd Stadium. We don't know. Oh,
that would have been an ideal sun It would have
a view of this rototate pacting on the waymarker hall.
There was a picture published in the Thurday Evening Post
right following the assassination. It's the picture where the President's
(45:29):
body is prone and the Secret serviceman over him and
the foot is sticking out. But over on type of
a building there is what appears to be a rifleman
in the distance. And I don't know it does show
the rifleman in here it is right enough to view.
(45:52):
But I do have the third Evening Post actually showed
you that picture. We were told that there were riflemen there.
We were told that they had evidence that a rifleman
had been up on Harwood. Now these things I don't know.
In sixty seven, in Mamilla. A young man named Lewis
(46:12):
and Ui S A. N G. E. L. Castillo es
Lllo was arrested. He was put under hypnosis and admitted
that he worked in Dallas on November twenty second with
instructions and hits the man beside the woman in the
car with the red roses and before someone immediately ran
(46:36):
to him and says, they've already got it. Joe Gonni
leave and I have all the Mamilla papers from that,
and doctor Popkin has been working on this. I'm not
sure that there's anything to it, but I have all
of these papers and all of the documentation on of course,
(46:57):
they called all the president this vidit to Chicago to
the earning Navy game at Soldiers Field or November second,
because there was words that there was to be an
assassination attempt.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Because that all, I guess we should ask this question
at the beginning, But how did you get interested in
all this?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Well? I was not a Kennedy fan at all. I
am not much better Catholic than he was, but I
certainly felt that he was taking advantish of his religion,
and I felt that it was a great pretense. Even then,
they're running to Mass every morning. I do think Rose
(47:44):
Kennedy and Ethel Kennedy are good Catholics, and I admired
those two women, but I was not a Kennedy fan
at all. My husband worked where they furnished the Lincoln
continentals for the lot. That day they ran out of
carts and guard my personal car, a Colony Park station wagon,
(48:08):
and loaned it to carry part of the Washington Press.
It was in the lineup, and when I got the
car back finally it had signs on every wind windshield
and I have only two obs and left. I had
my husband's passed Welcome to Dallas and Jersey President November
twenty second and numbered on the back. I've kept that.
(48:30):
But I was downtown. I was having lunch at the
Chaperlle Club. I called my husband at approximately parted the
twelve ten minutes or twelve. I was waiting for my
sally and called him and said, did they get in
all nine? And he told me yes, they were in,
and that he'd come in and very favorably about Mizzue
(48:53):
Kennedy's appearance. He said she was a very beautiful woman,
much prettier than her pictures. And then I went by.
I finished my lunch and went down on Elm Street
at approximately twelve thirty. And as I walked down Elm
Street toward the lower end towards Houston Street, it was
(49:14):
approximately twenty five minutes till one when a tall black
man ran up to me and said, is it true
they shot our president? And it was feared on his face,
and my first impression was he had been singing. And
I stepped back, and suddenly, just the appearance of the street,
(49:39):
you knew something was wrong. There were slide cars running
down towards Elming Houston with right guns out the window,
and there was a.
Speaker 6 (49:47):
Stillness, you know, it was just you knew something was wrong.
And I ran into a place that's called New's Land
at Elm and Irby.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
And asked if I could use the bone. And I
called my husband and said, have you heard that Kennedy
had been shot? And I'll never forget the word. He said,
he's better than a dollar ail and don on of something.
And I said, what makes you say that? He said,
they had just said on radio that he was hitting
(50:24):
the head hard enough that it's sunn him around in
the corner. And you don't he had gone through the
Italian campaign in the Second World warrant. He said, you
don't hit him once in the head that card and
they left the talibant it. So I stood there and
with a little cluster of people around transistor radio, and
(50:47):
about ten minutes till one I heard the first description.
I see a sail under of the suspect over the air,
white male aprost three sixty apprissly thirty years age across me,
one hundred and sixty pounds, white shirt and tacky paint. Well,
I was horrified. I thought, they'll never catch him. If
(51:08):
this man has had a twenty minute headstart. And now
if he had been like van Gohen, had one ear gone,
or have al capone with a scar down his face
or a lamp or something, Yeah, she could not find him.
But that was a description that would set any one
or fifty thousand men in the Dollar Fort Worth area.
And I thought they'll never catch him. At one fifty one,
(51:32):
just about an hour later, they catched the nut and
say we have the man. They caught him in another
section of dollars in a theater, sitting quietly in a
theater instead.
Speaker 6 (51:46):
Of being sixty told he had either five nine.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Or five eleven, depending on whether he's in Russia or
in this country. He is not thirty years old. He
is twenty four years old. In fact, one month into
his twenty four he is now one hundred and sixty pounds.
He is closer to one hundred and thirty five to
forty pounds. He does not have on a white shirt.
(52:09):
He has on a dark reddish brown multicolored shirt. He
does not have on khaki pants. He has on brown
wool trowlers. And I said, something is wrong. This does
not make sense. And the more I started that day,
(52:30):
I placed one of my sons at both docks of
the Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Times Harold. I
used another son and my husband to relieve them. They say,
day and night. For the next few days, I kept
someone there buying newspapers. As a result, I have every
(52:51):
issue of both papers. But following Oswald's murder, the Dallas
Times Harold put out an issue of the paper with
the banner headline FBI warned Eiswald would be killed. And
I understand that about fifty if those papers were grammed
by people like my son, and they jerked them back
(53:15):
and destroyed them, those papers are extremely valuable now, but
I do have every issue of every paper.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
You were offered quite a bit of money through quite.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
A bit of money for that one paper. Oh Now.
I started that afternoon an index, column by column, every
name that was in the paper, the different witnesses, the
different people who made statements to the press. And then
in September of sixty four I got the report and
(53:50):
I did the same thing with the report. I thought
it was the dullest reading I had ever gone through
in my life. That I read every word. And then
I found out that they had twenty six volumes of
supportive documents and testimonies. I turned the volume sixteen Commission
Exhibit one, and I started studying the exhibits one at
(54:13):
a time, and I would think, what in the world
is this? And I would go by into the testimony
whereat t e one was introduced, and every place that
was introduced, I would read about it. By the time
I got through twenty six I probably knew volume about
the testimony and the documents than anybody outside the stain
(54:37):
of the Warring Commission, because I had I didn't read
the testimony straight through. I read the document, studied ex
the exhibits and went back, and of course I would
get hooked to of somebody's testimony and then read everything
concerning that, and I would say that I had completely
(54:58):
read the twenty sixth Yeah, I would say five times
in the past twelve years. Then in nineteen sixty.
Speaker 6 (55:07):
Six I found out that they had thousands of pages in.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
The National Archives that were not published. I immediately went
to Washington and tried to get in there. I did
get in there. My first experience with brother frightening, and
I'm not frightening. It was in me, I guess. I said,
I'm very much like these kids who ran to me
(55:32):
from all over the country. Send me everything you've gone.
I said, I want to see what you've gone. And
they said, well, you we don't. We've got rooms for us.
Tell us what you want. I said, well, I don't know.
You know, well, we can't do anything. Worry. You have
to circimise. I said, all right, bring me document CD
one through ten. And they came out with these glass
(55:52):
big It took me five days to go from because
maybe CD one would have five big big volumes before
would have six or seven big thing n It took
me several days. A page at the time go through those.
The next day I say, bring me eleven through twenty one,
and they come out with a little handful of stuff
(56:14):
you could so you never knew at that point, you
didn't know what you were going to get. And I
went through, Oh, I stayed several days of ten days,
I guess, and went through doctrins, and then I started ordering.
I thought, well, basically ridiculous, I will order the things
to be cheaper than plain fair and singing the hay Adams.
(56:36):
So I started ordering doctrine, and uh, I now have
everything that has been declassified either in it in xerox
copy or on micropm. And then in seventy one we
got a big psychosum And this was just about the time.
(57:00):
That's well, but the time we got so in seventy one.
It was about the time that I went to the
government's office in seventy two. But I was not three
indexing all this bunch when I went down there. But
I took my twenty sixth biume with me, and I
(57:20):
took the recently declassified documents. At my index. I have
over thirty thousand, three by five index cards or something there.
Every name that's in the twenty sixth boume every name
that is in the document. And uh then, of course
in sixty eight I found out I could get access
to the executive session, and I ordered all of the
(57:43):
executive sessions, and I got a little fact about three
inch or six. Well, I had probably five hundred pages.
Oh well, maybe
What else can't you see as your.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Yes, Oh, I think he was hit first. I think
the first shot fired in Dealey Plaza hit the President
in the back. We have testimony from Roy Kellerman, who
was his Secret Service agent, a man who had many
(00:27):
years experience with the Secret Service. Sitting in the right
front of the limousine. He testified that he heard that
Boston accent say my god, I'm hit. Well, according to
the Warring Commission, the first shot hit the president in
the throat. Well, we know from UH medical reports that
(00:52):
the voice box was destroyed. He never said anything if
that was the first shot. But I think the first
shot hit him down lower in the banne and he
probably did say my god, I'm hit, which caused people
to begin turning slightly to see what's happened. I think
(01:13):
the second shot was from the front. Now this, this
is who did first shot come from? You? I I
I think it's entirely possible it came from the school
of depository shake the floor. I'm not sure of that.
If it uh, I'm not even certain that Oswald was
on the sixth floor or that he shot anything. I'm
(01:35):
not certain that the man liquor car can acquired anything
that day and twelve, but it if something was fired
that day by Oswald from the sixth floor, I think
it's the The one shot is the one that hit
Kennedy in the back, and if that happened, it's my
opinion that Lee immediately or whoever handled that gun immediately
(01:59):
wiped the trans from it and hit it in that
nest of books. I think the second shot came from
the front, and it's possible that it was from the sewer.
And I'm not one of these who believes that the
joint ste chiefs of Staint were lined up in the
sewer or behind the picket fence, but I do think
(02:23):
that someone could have been in that sewer and fired
with a say a small caliber target pistol. They would
have had a direct view of the president's throat. And
I put my son in the sewer on the Thanksgiving
day of nineteen sixty seven and he took pictures as
(02:46):
my other boy drove a car around, and I would say,
get it right here, get it right here, And he
did a very good job. Now, if you can sight
with a camera and take a picture, I think it's
how well he could have pulled off a shot from
the sewer. I think this I as I say, the
second shot hit the president in the throat from the front,
(03:11):
and possibly it was from the UH sewer. Then I think, uh,
a shot went wild and hit the underpass, ricocheting down
there now not at Elm Street, but at Main Street.
Uh uh almost half a block away where Jim t
was standing, and he was slightly injured when that got ricochet.
(03:35):
That could not have been one ricochete or from the
car though, W And that means a shot hit way
down there. And Uh, I'm not sure where that came from.
It might have been from the roof of the depository,
it might have been from uh the down tax building.
I don't know where that shot came from. Then I
(03:59):
think a shot hit kindly. Kindly by this time has turned,
he's holding his hat in his and he's turning to
see what happened in the back seat, and I think
he was hit. And it came down and threw the chuck,
threw the chan well from it hit right up in here.
It came out and and uh at a hangle. And
(04:25):
then I think, almost simultaneously a shot came from the rear,
and I definitely believe this came from the Diopans building,
second or third floor. A shot hit the President in
the right rear occipital bone. And when you view the
zapruder film, you see a slight movement forward. Uh, a
(04:49):
slight jerk forward?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Is that the jerk at three twelve right?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
And then almost simultaneously from the front with a high
powered rifle and obviously a rangeable bullet. He was hit right,
he was going down, and it hit him right here
and blew the back of the head out. And you
see drawings with this part of the head blown out,
and but you never see one with the exact back
(05:17):
of the head blown out. And a young man whose
father was Marion Jenkins, a doctor at Parkland who helped
work on Kennedy, said they could lift the what was
left of the brain from that cavity in the back
of the head without even making an incision. Now, this
(05:39):
boy stood in my kitchen right here where we are now.
He stood right there and told me that that his
father came home and said that it was horrible at
the back of the head was blown out. Well, no
medical man or anyone with intelligence is going to call
this part of the head the back of the head.
(06:00):
It would say top of headside of head, front of head,
never back of head. But Marion Jenkins told his family,
we lifted what was left of the brain from that cavity.
It was so large, in fact, that she's uh Jackie
says she saw this his hair being blown off the
(06:21):
back of his head. And I think, uh, those are
in my estimation the shots I see.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Where do you think uh ce three ninety nine came from?
Was it an implant?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Oh? Right, I have two and I do not know.
I have two theories on that, and I waver between
the two. I think it might have been a plant
put on, and of course a good uh way to
have had that uh bullet planted three ninety nine, the
pristine bullet. Just prior to the arrival of the President
(07:04):
at Elman Houston, a young man named Jerry Belknap the
elk Nap, was standing in the crowd uh on uh
their own Elm Street, just uh west of Houston. They
had ambulances posted at various spots along the UH parade
(07:26):
route for emergencies in in case the President anything happening
with they certainly, I don't think we're thinking of hostibility
of assassination. They were thinking of heart attack or stroke
or anything it to someone in the presidential motor case.
And there was an ambulance very close to the underpass there.
(07:51):
But just prior to the president's arrival, a young man
named Jerry Belknap had what they called an apple electic
seizure and he he just became will He had a seizure,
and they used the ambulance, which would have ordinarily been
(08:13):
used for the president under normal circumstances, I mean, just
some illness. They used that ambulance to take Jerry Beltman
to the hospital. They took him to Parkland. They took
him into the emergency round at Parkland, and he got
up and walked away. Now, this man could have placed that.
(08:34):
I mean, now this is certainly slanderous to say this,
and I don't know, but I think they should have
questioned Jerry Beltman which question before he was not. No,
he never even made an affabated that. They never asked
him anything. So I certainly think this man should have
been asked something. His doctors should have been questioned, he
(08:57):
should have been examined. And maybe those electronencephalographic referral to
has something to determine did this man have epilepsy? Was
it Petty Mall or Grandma? Uh? Something more should have
been done about this in view of the fact that
three ninety nine showed up. Now, if that, if three
(09:20):
ninety nine showed up legitimately as a part of the
episode that day, I think it had to be the
the one that was fired from the man liquor carcano
with so little power that it wouldn't even penetrate. That
(09:42):
gun was in such poor condition, and I think the
y if you'll remember in the uh a fingerling deep now,
that old bullet wouldn't even go in, and so consequently
it was lodged in there. Caught we caught in the
(10:02):
clothing and in the wound, and in the moving and
artificial respiration and all of the things they were doing.
I don't know what they did, but what they did
to Kennedy, it would have fallen out on the stretcher
and as they moved him from one place to another.
Here was this bullet. Now, I do not think it found.
(10:22):
There is no possibility. I've held three ninety nine in
my hand, and it would be it would create a
cause poor old Marian Johnson to had a heart attack
if he knew that, but I did. I held that
in my hand in the National Archives. And on November
twenty second, nineteen sixty three, I knew very little about
(10:46):
guns and ammunition. You could have showed me a rifle
and a shotgun and I wouldn't have known which was which.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I would not have known a revolver from a machine
machine gun practically, and today and now I am fairly
expert for a woman, UH with with guns and ammunition.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And I saw that I held that billet that village had.
I don't think it had ever looked like a testability
right correct.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
It's also true that there was an unidentified CIA agent
at part from that days there.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
He certainly didn't There was an unidentified uh UH they
they did not identify, and he came in, showed his
UH credentials and said this is my friend, and never
identified him. We don't even know who the other man was.
There were two men who entered about UH between one
(11:44):
and one thirty, and we don't know who they were,
where he came from. We were not aware that the
CIA had people here at all.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Is it also true that kennedy body was literally taken
by force from Parkland Hospital.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Absolutely, that body was forcefully removed over the protest of
all of the Dallas law enforcement officials. This was in
November of sixty three. It was not a federal crime
to assassinate a president. It was a federal crime to
(12:24):
attempt to assassinate a president, but they had no federal
laws to cover assassination of a president. Therefore it became
a Texas crime. This was in November of sixty three.
This was strictly.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
A crime in under the jurisdiction of the state of Texas,
and that body should not have been removed until all
the proper procedures, the top seed and everything was done
to Satheast nine, Texas law, and the decision was made
(13:08):
immediately to remove.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
The body to to Washington. And they forcefully, I mean
it was almost fist fights, knocking people down. They wheeled
that body. You know that, right, I know that. Sorry, fact,
they forcefully removed the body. And then it is my
opinion that they, with equal disregard for the rights of
(13:32):
the state of Texas, they removed all investigatory procedures from
our Texas law.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
M okay. The morning of the assassination, Oswald and Fraser
drove to the Texas school.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Book Depository from Irving.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Texas Strait and in a bag.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
There's some question as to whether he.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Had the assassination weapon or some curtain rods.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
There's some question in my mind as to whether he
had anything except a lunch bag. But if he had
a bag that was capable of carrying either curtain rids
or a gun broken down, I'm a little bit inclined
to believe the boy's story that day that it was
curtain rids. And I know that Lee was capable of
(14:35):
stretching the truth or evading the truth, because we have
his interview in New Orleans and the fact that he
would tell Carlos bringere, I am anti castro. May I
help you train your men, and then go out on
the street with procastro signs and the hate like he did.
(14:57):
He was capable of of uh a deception. But I
am a little bit inclined to beneath the curtain ride
story if he had a bag at all other than
lunch back. For this reason, M both Lenny may Randall
and your Wesley Fraser gave an example that he carried
(15:23):
the package cumped in his hand with his his the
palm of his hand, his fingers cupped around it, and
it was up under hi the arm pet. Now, of
course we have some discrepancy in the actual length of
the gun itseld. What he ordered and what he got
(15:45):
were two different things. If he actually ordered and if
he actually received that gun, we we have no receipts.
He did not sign anything to get that gun from Wa.
We never were able to determine the boring commission wasn't
who actually picked up the guy?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Did he ever say a receipt for his pistol?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Go? And this is completely I have you ever gone
and picked up a package at a post office? You
had to sign for it. They will not release it
to you unless you sign for it. Well, uh now,
if it had been five years or something like that,
(16:26):
I would have understood the disappearance of this uh receipt.
But this was less than a year. This was about
uh well, March, from March till November. I cannot believe
that the post Office, I mean today, I could accept
anything wrong with the post Office. I think we'd be
(16:47):
better off the Pony Express. But uh then we had
fairly good service from the post Office, and I think
they would have kept that receipt those receipts. But oh,
another thing, back to the curtain riding story. You have
seen in my home pictures that I know were taken
(17:09):
the afternoon, late afternoon of the twenty second are the
twenty third. Now, the people who the Black Star people
are not certain whether. I mean, we can't seem to
get a straight answer. They took pictures the afternoon of
the twenty second, they took pictures the afternoon of the
twenty third. One of those two days, Missus Roberts was
(17:30):
hanging curtains, putting up curtains in his room. Now, I
cannot believe that they would change the curtains and put
up curtain rides and change the curtains, oh to accommodate photographers.
I think they would have left that room like it was.
(17:53):
But you have seen pictures where they are putting up curtains.
I think they were trying to make that closet look
a little more habitable. I don't think there were curtains there.
I think leeve could possibly.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Have one of curtains.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, the curtains in there too, because it was you
could just look right in from the outside. It was
a closet that had been converted to a room. And
I think that is very interesting and more questions should
have been asked. Were there curtains in that room? Why
did you put up curtains? Uh? Were there curtain rise?
(18:33):
I And I think this, this makes me doubt that
he actually carried the gun. He denied it, of course,
but we can't take he he was going to deny
everything that day.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Certain in your opinion, What intelligence connections, if any, did
Oswald have?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I believe and I can't prove this. Ah, and when
when I can give you documentation for something y you know,
and most of the things that I tell you, I
can say this is in volumes on so page so on,
so this is here or there, But I can't Uh,
this afp appidated to the MBI proves this. Are certainly
(19:18):
opposing his cousin, Marilyn Dorothy Murat. They are still classifying
material about her. Uh missus Oswald. Marguerite Oswald's sister, Lidian
Clavery Murat had a daughter, Dorothy oh Marylynd Dorothya Neurrat.
(19:41):
And this girl who had a very strange and career.
She worked her way around the world teaching student. Now
I don't know how many languages she spoke and what
kind of schools she taught in, but this is never
(20:04):
made quite clear. There are some documents still with Harold
more than twelve years following the assassination regarding Maryland Dorothy Murat.
One document is Ray Maryland, Dorothy Murat and Harold R. Isaacs, Boston.
(20:27):
I believe it's April fourth of nineteen sixty four. Now,
this Harold R. Isaacs was one of the China boys
accused of being Communist, and he comes from that background
and goes into Massachusetts Institute of Technology. And I cannot
(20:47):
verify this, but I have been told that MIT is
a quote hotbed of CIA activities. Back in the thirties
and forties, we were told that the University of Chicago
was a hotbed of communism. I don't know what it
is today. It's a very fine university, but we in
the South were told, oh, don't send your children there
(21:09):
because that's a hotbed of communism. Today we are told
that m is a hot bed of CIA activity, and
Harold R. Isaacs is very prominent there. Now, what would
there be about a little school teacher from New Orleans,
A first cousin of Lee Harvey Oswald. That would make
(21:33):
her so important that at a document regarding Marylynd, Dorothy
Immat and Harold R. Isaacs would still be classifying today.
John Pick was in Japan in October of nineteen sixty three.
John Pick was Lee Harvey Oswald's half brother. He claims
(21:56):
that Maryland Dorothy of your Red came to visit him
in Japan in October and in the conversation he said,
what do you hear from Lee? And she said, oh,
he's in Russia. Didn't you know? And it had not
been made public at that time that Lee was in Russia. Now,
(22:20):
if this is true, she had some inside knowledge. Now
I have wondered if possibly, Marilyn Dorothy, you're at recruited
Lea for the CIA. You see his strange discharge. His
(22:43):
mother was injured and when I say injured, a candy
box fell on her nose on December the eighth of
nineteen fifty eight while Lee was at home.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Now you know that to be true because you've met
the mother many times.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And well, I do not take her word for it.
I would not. However, let me say I do think, uh,
she is an impossible human being. But she is intelligent.
She isn't don't believe the stories that she's insane or
she and so far I had found her to be
very truthful. Now when she accuses you of mistreating her,
(23:20):
or not properly taking care of her, not getting her
enough money, these things, of course, I'm not considering when
I say, but truthful about her relationship with her children
and the government. I think Marguerite is truthful. Oh no,
I'm going by doctor's AFFI davits in the twenty six
(23:42):
volumes and in documents that have been released since nineteen
sixty seven, Marguerite was injured. She worked in a for
King Candy Company in Cox Department store in Fort Worth
in December of nineteen fifty eight. Lee was home on
leave December eighth of nineteen fifty eight, a box, a
(24:07):
candy box fell on her nose. It did not require
treatment medical treatment. She didn't even go to a doctor.
For a month. After Lee was gone back to the Marines,
she had went to a doctor and I'm my memory
may not serve me right. I believe his name was
doctor Goldford, but that may be another doctor she consulted later.
(24:30):
But she did go to a doctor in January of
nineteen fifty nine for treatment of this UH nose injury,
and he gave her some medication, drained her sinuses or
something alright. From January until August, apparently she is in
(24:51):
fairly good health. But in August seventeenth, Lee wrote a
letter to the Marines requesting a hardship discharge to go
home and take care of his ailing mother who has
been injured by a box falling on her nose. Months
have passed and right, and I almost well. From December eighth,
(25:15):
nineteen fifty eight til August seventeenth of nineteen fifty nine,
he requested a hardship discharge. There were five letters that
passed back and forth between UH, the powers that be
in the Marine Corps. Where are we going to to
let this boar go? He had he would not ordinarily
(25:38):
have been discharged until December. That would have his enlistment
would have been up. Then he had almost four months
of of of his enlistment remaining. On September fourth, he
has not been discharged. But he goes to Santa Anna
(25:59):
and apply a passport. He listed all these countries He's
going to visit, Finland, all the Russia, all these countries,
and he uses instead of a birth certificate at the
bottom of the application, he uses the number for his
(26:20):
inactive Marine Corps reserve number. He is that certain now
that passport was issued. He got it in his hands
on September tenth, one day before he is discharged on
the eleven, and he came to Texas. Marguerite apparently knew
(26:42):
he was only even though he's coming home on hardship discharge.
To take care of her. She borrowed a rollaway bed
from her landlord to accommodate her son, who is going
to quote be here a few days. He stayed three days.
(27:06):
He withdrew two hundred dollars from a Fort Worth bank
that he had deposited in December of fifty eight. It
had drawn three dollars interest. He took that and he
left the New Orleans. Now at the same time, we
know that on March the eleventh of nineteen fifty nine,
(27:32):
a man named Flynn with the f VIENNA approached Jack
Ruby and asked him to be an informer for the FVN,
and apparently Jack agreed. They did not contact him again
throughout March, and they went till the twenty eighth of
(27:55):
April before they interviewed him again in his role as informants.
They went all drough May. They didn't talk to him
at all Dury May, but starting in June July August
they are contacting him every two weeks MM, which is
far more frequently than most FBNI informants are a question
(28:18):
that it's every forty five days normally, not less often
than forty five days, now more often than thirty days
unless something hot is going on now. In September, the
last of August, he apparently made a trip to Cuba.
In September he made he went to New Orleans and
(28:40):
made another trip to Cuba. In September, Oswald goes to
New Orleans. He uh has travel arrangements made by the
travel agency in the International trademark using Louis Hopkins, the
exact same travel agent who arranged all of clay Shaw's
trap and by the admission of the Ciamen, only knowledgeable
(29:07):
travelers went to Russia through Helsinki, but his travel arrangements
were were made by someone who was very knowledgeable. In September,
both Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald were in New Orleans,
one leaves for Russia and one for Cuba. By October tenth,
(29:31):
Oswald has reached hell Sinky. By October second, Ruby is
back in Dowland and the ATV release him for a
lack of productivity. Is that Commission document ten fifty two right?
CD ten fifty two. Now it does not give the
(29:55):
different dates. That's a different document CD seven third. Wait,
let me get it for exactly it is. It's CD
seven thirty two, J one and two, and it gives
the exact dates. See d UH ten fifty two does
not give the dates. It it admits that there were
nine times that Oswald was contacted. Uh, there is another
(30:19):
document CD four, pages one fifty five to one fifty nine,
which is sort of upholds is but the important one.
The important ones are CD ten fifty two and CD
seven thirty two j pages one in two giving the dates. Now,
I told you that the first contact was March eleventh,
nineteen fifty nine. Second contact was they didn't contact him
(30:43):
anymore through March and and then they went all the
way through April two. April twenty eighth they contacted him
for the second time. They didn't contact him at all
in May, but June fifth they contact him for the
third ten then they contact him again. The reason I've
(31:07):
missed one, I just went third oh June eighteenth, June fifth,
June eighteenth, that's christing that both. Then they contact him
July seventh for the fifth time, then the twenty first
for the sixth time. Then in August they contacting the
(31:31):
seventh time August sixth, the eighth time August thirty, the
eighth time August thirty booth, and they don't tell nothing
at all. During September. I believe I told you that
August twenty eighth or so he went made to the Cuba.
(31:51):
We're uncertain of that, but we believed you did that.
There's some place in that he made by first shot
tip that one might is right that all the thirty
first they contacting to the h twent Thatchmbert is in
New Orleans and Cuba. September ihold is in New Orleans
and own his way to Rust, and October seventh they
(32:16):
contact leaders for the final towns. They don't leave him.
I think they don't leave him anymore.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Do you think the government uh these documents that state
what those contacts were about.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I oh, I k now whether or not they ever
leave the archives is a different.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Matters, but there's someone.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
See I'm aware that there are that notes that the
FBI destroyed. That'sin's the only thing that didn't leave the archives.
There were two other items that we have receipts where
the FBI took them from the Dallas Police and the
f the National Archives. I also have letters from the
National Archives, and we don't have those. We're gone.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
What do you think about her notes that we delivered
to the FBI and then subsequently destroyed.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, I have pretty firm opinions on this, and I
can't exactly document. On July sixteenth, nineteen sixty two, John
Doudge is Fain, an FBI agent, and fort Worth went
(33:29):
to Lee's home to interview him. He sat in front
of his home for over two hours interviewing Lee. Now,
when we've got the friendship of the January twenty second
or twenty seven exegetation of the wine Commission, even Alan
(33:56):
duwis I believe, he says, nobody can't believe that's always
talked about. Go over two hours. The same report was
so chorances and he said that two hours talking to him. Now,
that afternoon Lee went and paid his rent, which was
late overdue, he had no money. I believe God does
(34:17):
the same tiredly for an informant in the report, he's
gonna say he that Lee was cooperative and offered to
call him if he sold had tried to contact him
or anything. I think now, if we are to believe
that this sullen, uncooperative FBI hated Young, money was what
(34:39):
they'd changed he was, I don't believe that he would
have cooperated and said yes lad, he was given money.
I think that same gave him task that afternoon, and
he went and paid his rents now family retired from
the FBI in October of nineteen sixty and turned the
(35:01):
fowl over to James G. Hosty in and Hosty apparently
was rabidly anti communist, a rabid right winger and a
person am a right winger myself, but I think this
man respected that if you didn't stand up and chounce
(35:25):
for dooma content for George Wallace, and I'm not really
attending to compose to, but I think anyone who was
less of those who host he considered him to be
conn and he considered that same had hired a Russian
agent and it was his life's work to prove this
(35:48):
man a Russian agent he knew rarely was working. He
could go down there and talk to him and question
him and badger him. But he chose how to do that.
He considered it would be better to go out there
and badger those two women and possibly if he kept
at it long enough, one of them would break down
(36:09):
and if met old. Yes, Lee is in touch with
the Kremlin every other day, so he kept going out there. Now,
to the Wiring Commission, he testified that he did not
want to go around the man's face of business and
in barrassed him. Well, he didn't hesitate a moment to
go to Saint Mark's Students where Louis Payne worked. He
(36:31):
didn't hesitate a moment to go to bar helicopter about
Michael Payne. Why would he be so considerate of this
what he thought to be a Rushan agent. So he went.
He maybe keipts out there, and Lee got enough and
he went down when he seemed to Irving and found
(36:55):
out that these women he had their question again on
November fir By Hostess. He went down. I think he
went on the age of November he went down to
the FBI office and I think he asked for hostess,
and I think they said he's in me out in
(37:16):
the fields working. And Lee said, you tell him to
leave my wife alone. If he doesn't, I'm going to
report him to Washington to my superiors. I'm working up
for you people too. And now I don't if he
thinks that I'm behind his back trying to shut up
(37:39):
some fdccs of chapter here in dialas. I'm tired of this.
I'm doing what few people told me to do. Et Te.
Now all of this is fromagin On. My party got this, remember,
but it makes sense. It makes sense, And I think
the FBI said, oh, don't pay anytention to host you.
You you know, he's studdy. We're not interested in what
(38:03):
do you do? You just do what you're told to
do for us, and do you do anything you're The
next day he writes the letter to the Russian embassy
and he starts a parent rank with the FBI is
no longer interested in my Aevnthy. That's in the letter
of November nine that he wrote a mess at Cane House.
Now in volume one, page I believe it's either thirty
(38:29):
seven or fifty seven. In Volume one, Marina testifying to
the Whine Commission on February fourth, nineteen sixty four, that
Mindy said he went to their building to the FBI,
but I thought he was a brave rabbit. I didn't
believe it. In Volume three Thanges eighteen and nineteen and twenty,
(38:51):
Leve Came says that owns November nine, when he was
talking to her Saturday, he told her he went to
the FBI and left a note for hostees. But Ruth
Came said, I later found out that wasn't truth. Well,
who could have proven to her it wasn't true except
(39:13):
the FBN. So they had discussed that and they live
to it now. It's my opinion that even in nineteen
sixty three or today, if you went down to the
FDI office and triatened to blow the place up or
burn it or kill somebody, So if they would send
you in, let them work before dark tonight or in
(39:36):
sling till the girl well TM of me. This just
never happened. All of the testimony, no sea people who
saw the notes have agreed on what the notes said.
I think the note merely said, stray away from my life.
If you want to place to me about anything, come
down you talked to me. I don't think it said anything.
(39:59):
I think it any brand in it was a threat
to report to jegor Hoover or someone in Washington that
this man was mispreating his family, or something to that effect.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
You previously mentioned to me that in information about some
other ambush points in Dallas besides Peter Cross, Well.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
We had no absolute proof on any of it. Found
in Lee's possessions were some pictures General Walker in the
back of General Walker's home. Now, Lee they claimed tied
him in with the April ten, nineteen sixty three shooting
(40:47):
at General Walker's home. Oh, we didn't hear about this.
Marine is the one who brought his fad. But there
were also pictures of the railroad presso right down very
near General Walker's home. ID and these pictures indicate that
(41:11):
Lee was down here around Turtle Creek and Lemons right
down here taking pictures. Now, that would have been an
ideal site for ambush. You've got Turtle Creek running along
the head right and see where he turned there with
a high powered rifle from that railroad overpast underpast. I
(41:32):
never can determine whether you when you go under something.
It's called an underpast, or whether the train going over
it makes it an overpast. I never have whatever. Yeah,
but this thing down here would have been an ideal
sight for ambush. You've got Turtle Creek a lot of shrubbery. Firstly, pospulated.
(41:54):
I think that whoever plans this thing and plans to
emplay Lee Harvey Eifelow and don't misunderstand, I'm not sure
that he wasn't involved, but I am almost certain he
didn't know exactly what was going to come off, and
certainly had no idea that he would not walk away
from it a free name.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
In other words, you would by the statement that Oswald said,
I'm just a pasty when I have.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
The recordings from that night, his first radio press TiSER
and they're talking to him about Tippet and he says,
I didn't shoot anybody. And they say, well, did you
kill the president? And he says, nobody has even said
anything to me about that. Oh, I see, I am
(42:44):
just a pasty. I'm just a pasty. What if Oswell
had no idea that the president was actually going to
be killed. If you'll remember when Truman was shot at
by the Puerto Ricans and they killed one of his
guards at Blair House. Truman's popularity was that it's about
(43:07):
as low an ebb as it ever was. He had
threatened to take over the railroads to keep them from striking,
and that certainly alienated the left. He had brought MacArthur home,
which alienated the right. He just about didn't have any
friends at voting friends. And then the Puerto Rican shot
(43:30):
at him and killed one of his guards, and the
American people rallied around him, and he went in by
a landslide like the country had never seen since Roosevelt
thefore right. And what if the Bonnie Kennedy was a
shrewd young man and he certainly had contact with Discis
(43:52):
and FBI men who did not like it. Had to
be somebody planning this thing, who knew every move that
this man was going tonate every move where he was
going to be every minute. What if Bobby decided that
because of the Bay of Pigs and the mental crisis
(44:13):
and the Vedma kitchen debate, and Kennedy had not come
off too well in these things, what if Bobby decided
that that if there were a fate assassination attempts to
perform that against his brother, the American people would rally
around him and he would go in and sixty four
(44:34):
with the landslide to prove we didn't want him kill
And what if Bobby used discisonts, FBI men and government men,
But what is the CIA took real a mission behind
to pick a sense. Now we heard later that there
(45:04):
was a gunman arrested in Todd Stadium. We don't know. Oh,
that would have been an ideal sun It would have
a view of this rototate pacting on the waymarker hall.
There was a picture published in the Thurday Evening Post
right following the assassination. It's the picture where the President's
(45:29):
body is prone and the Secret serviceman over him and
the foot is sticking out. But over on type of
a building there is what appears to be a rifleman
in the distance. And I don't know it does show
the rifleman in here it is right enough to view.
(45:52):
But I do have the third Evening Post actually showed
you that picture. We were told that there were riflemen there.
We were told that they had evidence that a rifleman
had been up on Harwood. Now these things I don't know.
In sixty seven, in Mamilla. A young man named Lewis
(46:12):
and Ui S A. N G. E. L. Castillo es
Lllo was arrested. He was put under hypnosis and admitted
that he worked in Dallas on November twenty second with
instructions and hits the man beside the woman in the
car with the red roses and before someone immediately ran
(46:36):
to him and says, they've already got it. Joe Gonni
leave and I have all the Mamilla papers from that,
and doctor Popkin has been working on this. I'm not
sure that there's anything to it, but I have all
of these papers and all of the documentation on of course,
(46:57):
they called all the president this vidit to Chicago to
the earning Navy game at Soldiers Field or November second,
because there was words that there was to be an
assassination attempt.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Because that all, I guess we should ask this question
at the beginning, But how did you get interested in
all this?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Well? I was not a Kennedy fan at all. I
am not much better Catholic than he was, but I
certainly felt that he was taking advantish of his religion,
and I felt that it was a great pretense. Even then,
they're running to Mass every morning. I do think Rose
(47:44):
Kennedy and Ethel Kennedy are good Catholics, and I admired
those two women, but I was not a Kennedy fan
at all. My husband worked where they furnished the Lincoln
continentals for the lot. That day they ran out of
carts and guard my personal car, a Colony Park station wagon,
(48:08):
and loaned it to carry part of the Washington Press.
It was in the lineup, and when I got the
car back finally it had signs on every wind windshield
and I have only two obs and left. I had
my husband's passed Welcome to Dallas and Jersey President November
twenty second and numbered on the back. I've kept that.
(48:30):
But I was downtown. I was having lunch at the
Chaperlle Club. I called my husband at approximately parted the
twelve ten minutes or twelve. I was waiting for my
sally and called him and said, did they get in
all nine? And he told me yes, they were in,
and that he'd come in and very favorably about Mizzue
(48:53):
Kennedy's appearance. He said she was a very beautiful woman,
much prettier than her pictures. And then I went by.
I finished my lunch and went down on Elm Street
at approximately twelve thirty. And as I walked down Elm
Street toward the lower end towards Houston Street, it was
(49:14):
approximately twenty five minutes till one when a tall black
man ran up to me and said, is it true
they shot our president? And it was feared on his face,
and my first impression was he had been singing. And
I stepped back, and suddenly, just the appearance of the street,
(49:39):
you knew something was wrong. There were slide cars running
down towards Elming Houston with right guns out the window,
and there was a.
Speaker 6 (49:47):
Stillness, you know, it was just you knew something was wrong.
And I ran into a place that's called New's Land
at Elm and Irby.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
And asked if I could use the bone. And I
called my husband and said, have you heard that Kennedy
had been shot? And I'll never forget the word. He said,
he's better than a dollar ail and don on of something.
And I said, what makes you say that? He said,
they had just said on radio that he was hitting
(50:24):
the head hard enough that it's sunn him around in
the corner. And you don't he had gone through the
Italian campaign in the Second World warrant. He said, you
don't hit him once in the head that card and
they left the talibant it. So I stood there and
with a little cluster of people around transistor radio, and
(50:47):
about ten minutes till one I heard the first description.
I see a sail under of the suspect over the air,
white male aprost three sixty apprissly thirty years age across me,
one hundred and sixty pounds, white shirt and tacky paint. Well,
I was horrified. I thought, they'll never catch him. If
(51:08):
this man has had a twenty minute headstart. And now
if he had been like van Gohen, had one ear gone,
or have al capone with a scar down his face
or a lamp or something, Yeah, she could not find him.
But that was a description that would set any one
or fifty thousand men in the Dollar Fort Worth area.
And I thought they'll never catch him. At one fifty one,
(51:32):
just about an hour later, they catched the nut and
say we have the man. They caught him in another
section of dollars in a theater, sitting quietly in a
theater instead.
Speaker 6 (51:46):
Of being sixty told he had either five nine.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Or five eleven, depending on whether he's in Russia or
in this country. He is not thirty years old. He
is twenty four years old. In fact, one month into
his twenty four he is now one hundred and sixty pounds.
He is closer to one hundred and thirty five to
forty pounds. He does not have on a white shirt.
(52:09):
He has on a dark reddish brown multicolored shirt. He
does not have on khaki pants. He has on brown
wool trowlers. And I said, something is wrong. This does
not make sense. And the more I started that day,
(52:30):
I placed one of my sons at both docks of
the Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Times Harold. I
used another son and my husband to relieve them. They say,
day and night. For the next few days, I kept
someone there buying newspapers. As a result, I have every
(52:51):
issue of both papers. But following Oswald's murder, the Dallas
Times Harold put out an issue of the paper with
the banner headline FBI warned Eiswald would be killed. And
I understand that about fifty if those papers were grammed
by people like my son, and they jerked them back
(53:15):
and destroyed them, those papers are extremely valuable now, but
I do have every issue of every paper.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
You were offered quite a bit of money through quite.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
A bit of money for that one paper. Oh Now.
I started that afternoon an index, column by column, every
name that was in the paper, the different witnesses, the
different people who made statements to the press. And then
in September of sixty four I got the report and
(53:50):
I did the same thing with the report. I thought
it was the dullest reading I had ever gone through
in my life. That I read every word. And then
I found out that they had twenty six volumes of
supportive documents and testimonies. I turned the volume sixteen Commission
Exhibit one, and I started studying the exhibits one at
(54:13):
a time, and I would think, what in the world
is this? And I would go by into the testimony
whereat t e one was introduced, and every place that
was introduced, I would read about it. By the time
I got through twenty six I probably knew volume about
the testimony and the documents than anybody outside the stain
(54:37):
of the Warring Commission, because I had I didn't read
the testimony straight through. I read the document, studied ex
the exhibits and went back, and of course I would
get hooked to of somebody's testimony and then read everything
concerning that, and I would say that I had completely
(54:58):
read the twenty sixth Yeah, I would say five times
in the past twelve years. Then in nineteen sixty.
Speaker 6 (55:07):
Six I found out that they had thousands of pages in.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
The National Archives that were not published. I immediately went
to Washington and tried to get in there. I did
get in there. My first experience with brother frightening, and
I'm not frightening. It was in me, I guess. I said,
I'm very much like these kids who ran to me
(55:32):
from all over the country. Send me everything you've gone.
I said, I want to see what you've gone. And
they said, well, you we don't. We've got rooms for us.
Tell us what you want. I said, well, I don't know.
You know, well, we can't do anything. Worry. You have
to circimise. I said, all right, bring me document CD
one through ten. And they came out with these glass
(55:52):
big It took me five days to go from because
maybe CD one would have five big big volumes before
would have six or seven big thing n It took
me several days. A page at the time go through those.
The next day I say, bring me eleven through twenty one,
and they come out with a little handful of stuff
(56:14):
you could so you never knew at that point, you
didn't know what you were going to get. And I
went through, Oh, I stayed several days of ten days,
I guess, and went through doctrins, and then I started ordering.
I thought, well, basically ridiculous, I will order the things
to be cheaper than plain fair and singing the hay Adams.
(56:36):
So I started ordering doctrine, and uh, I now have
everything that has been declassified either in it in xerox
copy or on micropm. And then in seventy one we
got a big psychosum And this was just about the time.
(57:00):
That's well, but the time we got so in seventy one.
It was about the time that I went to the
government's office in seventy two. But I was not three
indexing all this bunch when I went down there. But
I took my twenty sixth biume with me, and I
(57:20):
took the recently declassified documents. At my index. I have
over thirty thousand, three by five index cards or something there.
Every name that's in the twenty sixth boume every name
that is in the document. And uh then, of course
in sixty eight I found out I could get access
to the executive session, and I ordered all of the
(57:43):
executive sessions, and I got a little fact about three
inch or six. Well, I had probably five hundred pages.
Oh well, maybe
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