The Dallas Action Ep.211 - H.L. Arledge & Rob Clark

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is dedicated to the homies that was down since
day one.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to drop D.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
The following is a disclaimer from drop D Podcast Productions.
Under Section one oh seven of the Copyright Act of
nineteen seventy six, allowance is made for fair use for
purposes such as criticism, comment, news, reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research.
Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that
might otherwise be infringing. Nonprofit, educational, or personal use tips

(00:33):
the balance in favor of fair use. So if you
publish some nonsense and we show it to be nonsense,
or you lie to your audience and we call you
on it, don't get mad, get better.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
Not news to choose on the basis too.

Speaker 5 (01:05):
Will y'all judgment always faim.

Speaker 6 (01:10):
Could not make good my night?

Speaker 5 (01:13):
Or what that?

Speaker 6 (01:14):
Comply behide?

Speaker 5 (01:17):
I stayed in and till fail when I said, I
just foke this in the test.

Speaker 7 (01:32):
If y'all night.

Speaker 8 (01:35):
Like to be free, I ten tes.

Speaker 6 (01:53):
Comission cool or denied?

Speaker 7 (01:56):
Do buss you put in this little.

Speaker 6 (01:59):
Bool not made too long as well?

Speaker 8 (02:06):
It dose not you.

Speaker 6 (02:08):
Boos you live in you boo about two marbles of
the lamb.

Speaker 5 (02:17):
When I said, I just don't that.

Speaker 7 (02:23):
In the channel.

Speaker 5 (02:29):
If you're like me, fight me love the adjec.

Speaker 6 (04:00):
You plans of food and the future soul like a
days of boot, till your time comes.

Speaker 8 (04:11):
To, till your time comes to, until your time comes.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
To And where I said.

Speaker 5 (04:22):
I just stop, and the chest.

Speaker 8 (04:30):
If your night.

Speaker 7 (04:33):
Rite to be free?

Speaker 8 (04:36):
I said where if I said, well, spend and the
chest your.

Speaker 5 (04:54):
Night right to be.

Speaker 9 (05:09):
Hey? Hey, Hey, what is up? What's happening? Welcome to
another edition of the Dallas Action Podcast presented by Wall
Street Window. I'm Doug Campbell. I am your host. This
podcast is an auditory exploration of the people, places, things,
events and ideas connected to related to the assassination of

(05:30):
President John F. Kennedy. We want to thank once again
Wall Street Window for their continued support of this podcast.
Wall Street Window. That's Wallstreet Window at wallstreet window dot com.
They help us keep the lights on. Right here that's
Wall Street Window at wallstreet window dot com. For your
up to date logically sound stocks and commodities, trading trends

(05:58):
and analysis, Wall Street Window at Wall Street Window dot com. Guys,
please visit often and absorb. So here we go. We're back.
Episode two eleven oh quick shout out to TDA Honor
Roll member Paul Cummings. Yo, brother, here's another Let's go tigers. Okay,
before we get to my conversation with author H. L.

(06:21):
Arledge and the big homie, my man, Rob Clark, I'm
gonna tell you a little story. Okay, Now, about two
years ago, eh, maybe more, I don't know. I was
clicking through some of my digital files. See I work
off of and keep all my podcast stuff on my
resources assassination related research materials on a fist full of

(06:44):
thumb drives, all right, big ones. They're like one hundred
and twenty eight gigs each. Well, one day, I don't know,
two years ago or so, I'm clicking through the one
that contains files, documents, tons and tons of shit, guys,
for real, Like all kinds of categories are on there,

(07:06):
and they're in different files. Well, I don't know if
I'd had too much coffee that morning or what was
going on, but I'm clicking like a gunslinger, right, And
this one huge file, one huge file called TDA research
research material poof it disappeared, I mean vanished from my

(07:28):
thumb drive. Gigs upon gigabytes, tons and tons of documents files, reports,
dozens of books on pdf, the entire twenty seventeen and
twenty eighteen document releases. Oh yeah, man, it just like
I say, it vanished and I thought I had inadvertently

(07:49):
deleted it with my gunslinger mouse play right, But it
turns out I had merely moved it, right. Who knew?
So the last week June of this year, I'm looking
for something I can't think. It was an audio file
of something. I'm not exactly sure what it was, but
I'm clicking through and I opened a different file, scroll,

(08:10):
scroll up a little bit, and I see it. Right.
I was like, what the And I clicked it open
because I was like, wait, is that is that?

Speaker 6 (08:19):
Ah?

Speaker 9 (08:20):
There it was, I thought, damn, look at that. It
was very cool. Again, I had many months before giving
it all up as deleted. So why do I tell
you this? Well, because the fifty one page document that
will be the centerpiece of our studies in this episode

(08:43):
was one of the first things I opened when I
found this file. I read about two pages of it,
and I remembered it. I remembered that this was one
of the many in there that I thought intriguing enough
to share with you guys. The audience, you know, maybe
down the road in an episode. Well, here we are,
are you guys? I'm sure you are familiar with the

(09:06):
term inside baseball, right, like the quote unquote behind the scenes,
true story type thing, the untold inner workings, you know,
the inside baseball. Well that's what we got here regarding
the legendary New Orleans investigation of the JFK hit and

(09:27):
the prosecution of one Clay Laverne Shaw, led by Da
Jim Garrison. That's what we got in this document. It
is a personal diary of the Garrison investigation covering August
of nineteen sixty seven through October of nineteen sixty eight,
recorded by a paid member of Garrison's staff, a guy

(09:50):
named Tom Bethel. And like I say, inside baseball is
exactly what he gives us. Skewed of course, with his
personal opinions on well everything, but fascinating detail of the
day to day workings of this historic investigation into the
Kennedy assassination by mister Garrison. I mean everything's in there.

(10:14):
The hours they worked, who liked who, who didn't trust who?
Where they ate leads, they chased suspects, they interrogated, their
own analysis and thinking on the way leads that they
did not pursue Bethel's first impressions and observations on and

(10:40):
of figures whose names are very familiar to people like
me and you who study this stuff, Mark Lane, Perry Russo,
May Brussel, Lauren Hall, Dick Billings, just to name.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Just a few.

Speaker 9 (10:59):
Now, to help me present this contemporaneous account of the
Garrison investigation and to give us some context, we have
two gentlemen of distinction. Like I mentioned before, the first
New Orleans journalist, author and historian H. L. Rlich. Mister
hl is an investigative reporter whose beat is the by

(11:19):
You Louisiana, specifically by you Justice dot com. That's by
you Justice dot com b A y O U j
U S T I c e dot com. Fantastic work there.
Mister hl is part investigative reporter, part historian, part true

(11:42):
crime noir writer. Excuse me. He has three count of
three awesome books available at Amazon in his by You
Justice series. You need to read these books, guys, especially
the book Dirty Phoenix, Birth of the Dixie Mafia that's

(12:02):
the newest one. And also enjoy joining us today. As
I said, the big homie Rob Clark very familiar to
listeners of this podcast. That's an understatement. My dear friend
and my co host on the other drop D assassination
research show which is called Quick Hits, a JFK assassination
research news and notes podcast, and he is also the

(12:26):
host and creator of the legendary The Lone Gunman podcast,
co hosted nowadays by our friend Joe BURRELLI now, Rob
has more knowledge and recall regarding the New Orleans investigation
and the connections to the assassination the Garrison investigation than
anybody I know, especially me. So that's why Rob's here.

(12:50):
I thought we would get these two guys very learned
on the subject together right here for you guys to
drop some knowledge and context on us as we explore
this contemporaneous inside baseball of a tumultuous and crucial time

(13:13):
for Garrison's case. So let's get into it here we go.
Hope you enjoy. First, gentleman, two things that jump out
at me reading Tom Bethel's account of the Garrison investigation
in his time in it. Number one is serious doubts
about the case against Shawl for some of Garrison staff.

(13:37):
That is a reoccurring theme. And Another reoccurring theme that
I noticed is potential leads, like potential fruitful leads not
followed up upon. And because it did devetails with your work, Hl,
when I mean by a lead is like a lead
not followed, and it seems like purposely at this point,

(14:02):
mister HL, what I want to do is I want
to read a little bit from your book. Okay, okay,
Well we're talking about leads not followed, and you have
a timeline in your book, and it's sort of the
timeline of what Garrison was told about leeds regarding bertrand right,
and when this lead about the real clay board Berchrand

(14:27):
was actually delivered to him. And I'm going to read
a little bit. And this is right around the time
also that David Ferries found dead. Right, this is in
the same like two or three days here reading now
from mister Arlige's book. According to author Edward j Epstein,
and this is February nineteenth, Garrison assigned assistant da Andrew
mumou Skiambra with questioning French quarter workers and patrons attempting

(14:52):
to locate a man named Clay Bertrand now here's what
we get into. Bill Elder whom hl K new person
and knew well.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Right, that is correct, That is correct.

Speaker 9 (15:04):
He worked for w WLTV there in New Orleans, and
he actually sought out Skiambra and Lou Ivan to let
them know that Clay Bertrand was real and he had
worked on Bourbon Street at the show Bar, but had
since graduated from Tulane and moved to Lafayette or Lafayette

(15:25):
excuse me, I pronouncing that like a tennesseean. So on
February twentieth, he tells them about Claiborne Bertran, the real
Klay Bertrand, that hey, this is a real guy, right,
and now if you go a little further, now, police
find David Ferry dead on the twenty second, but on

(15:49):
the twenty fifth. In a memo two Garrison, it says
investigator lou Ivan stated that he could not locate any
Clay Bertrand despite numerous inquiries and contacts. He also reported
that an employee of the Fountain Blue Hotel said Dean
Andrews told him that Klay Bertrand never existed. Now, they

(16:13):
never followed up on that lead. They never actually went
to find this guy Clay Bertrand at all, Right, so Elder,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
I was just gonna say the reality of the situation.
I've interviewed several people that were around during that time,
and if you really went to Bourbon Street and you
really were looking for Clay Bertrand, he wasn't hard to find.

Speaker 9 (16:42):
Not hard to find at all. And we're gonna get
into him in a minute. Now. I want to get
you to tell us this, you know, tell us the
story in a little more detailed, mister h L. But
now Elder provided this lead to Clay Bertrand, right, and
it seems to have been ignored. Now let me find

(17:07):
the other ignored lead here that I'm talking about. Once
is an anomalye twice as a pattern. Right now, let
me show you what I mean. This is Bethel's entry
for August nineteenth. All right. I talked to Alcock today.
He seemed to be the most intelligent and most communicative

(17:28):
person in the office. He said several things, some of
them astonishing. First, he told me that Gene Davis had
called Dean Andrews at the Hotel due. I asked him
how we knew that, and he said that Davis had
called him and admitted it. It now begins to look
as though Gen Davis really is Clay Bertrand, inasmuch as
anyone is. I'm not sure what he meant by that.

(17:50):
Alcock suggested that Dean may have just made up the
name Bertrand. Now here's what I mean by lead. Not followed,
he said there was a rumor that there had been
a no at the Hotel do while Andrews was there
named Claire Bertrand, and that, as far as he knew,
nobody had checked this out. Alcock went on to say

(18:10):
that it was the first name, Clay that was the
initial lead as far as Clay Shaw was concerned. I
suspected that this was true, but this was not the
first time anybody in the office had admitted it. He
said that Shaw had refused to take a light detector test,
and he feared Shaw's lawyers were very soon going to
publicize the results of a test, which he believed Shaw

(18:32):
had taken in Illinois somewhere. I never heard anything about that,
was that, uh uh before the investigation or I've never
heard anything about that, you Rob, No not?

Speaker 10 (18:47):
I mean, I don't know why. And he would go
to Illinois to take a lie detective test, and that's weird. Nah.

Speaker 9 (18:53):
Yeah. Now here's how we know they ignored the lead
about a possible nurse named Claire Bertrand being around when
Andrews was in the hospital. We're going to jump ahead
to Friday, October sixth. We went with Boxley to check
out a lead that Oswald was employed by Saint Charles
Hotel in nineteen sixty three. No Oswald or high Deel

(19:16):
in employee files of hotel, though the story evidently derives
from one Fred Willis, now employed at the Pancake House
on Bourbon Street, to whom we spoke. I doubt if
there's anything to it. Apparently the FBI had already checked
into the possibility, and no doubt would have made it
known if Oswald had worked there. Now that checked this out.
As Boxley and I were driving back toward two Lane Avenue,

(19:38):
I told him about the Claire Bertrand rumor, and we
discussed going into the hotel dou and looking at their
employee files. Decided against it, though I think we both
felt it would be somewhat embarrassing to unearth such information.

(19:59):
And I'll add, at this late of a date, you
know what I'm saying right now, wouldn't you want to
confirm or to confirm that or confirm it is not
true anyway. I mean, that seems like a hell of
a lead to ignore.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
But you know, so many investigators do that, even in
the JFK realm. If it doesn't fit your story, if
it's not a piece of your puzzle, then throw it aside.
Insand the FBI did that.

Speaker 11 (20:30):
A lot when they were investigating for the Warrant Commission.

Speaker 9 (20:34):
Oh yeah. A good example is Lauren Hall in the
odio incident. You know, he uh, he was nowhere around there,
but for some reason, Jay Edgar Hoover decided to print
that he what admitted it, which I don't think did
you know? But I find that interesting? Right, Okay, So
they ignored this lead, like there may actually be a

(20:56):
nurse named Claire Bertrand that was that was treating Dean
Andrew Claire Bertrand Clay Bertrand. There's got to be a
reason they would ignore that lead. Now that leads me
back to Claiborne Bertrand. Now before we get into some
reasons why Garrison's office may have ignored that lead, because

(21:24):
when you look at who Claiborne Bertrand was and who
he was connected to that kind of gets a little deep,
I think, so what before we get into why they
may have or may have his ass completely did ignore

(21:45):
the lead of Claiborne Bertrand, mister hl, tell us a
little about that. Tell us a little about this guy,
who he was, and how you ran acrossing.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Okay Man so much so much. Clayborn, yeah, alb Born
Bertrand was born and raised in Opelousis, Louisiana, And he
was well known. He was a big football player, so
he was very very popular even when he was just
in high school. Everybody knew the guy. But he was

(22:15):
a hot head. He was very much known for a
hot being a hot head. He was constantly getting in fights,
getting in trouble. Probably the biggest headline he ever had
is when he punched the sheriff of the parish counties
over here in Opelousis, and he just he didn't think,
he didn't care about that he punched him. And then

(22:36):
that tells you something about the connections that Clayborn Bertrand
had because he didn't stay in jail but three days.

Speaker 9 (22:42):
Yeah, and the guy was connected for sure.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, he was a bitch. He was a boxer at
some point he worked as a bodyguard for Leander Perez,
who was very very powerful judge in South Louisiana. And uh,
that's it's funny because if you get into New Orleans
at the time and the people that were that end

(23:08):
up being connected with the rackets, being connected with the
uh uh so called mafia there in New Orleans. So
many of them were former boxers. So that's another way
that Clayborne Bertrand ties in. Uh. Another important thing is
a guy by the name I don't want to get
ahead of you, so I'll just you just tell me

(23:30):
when to shut up. But when we were on the
every time I think of Leander Perez, I think of
another Leandre and Leandrew Davy. Uh. He he is a
key to a lot of this because I can tell
you everything if you go back and pull up his files,

(23:51):
the times that he was interviewed with the House Select Committee,
the things that he told Garrison. I can tell you
that I have been able to corroborate everything that he
said with other people who worked on Bourbon Street at
that time. And the key thing that he doesn't mention
in all of the in that tape recording that he

(24:11):
made and all of that. The key thing that he
doesn't mention is he went to school with Claiborne Bertrand
in Apolousis, Louisiana. Claiborne Uh played for the Tigers there
and his nickname even after school was Tiger.

Speaker 12 (24:31):
HM.

Speaker 10 (24:34):
And Leander Davie, Right, he's a he's a waiter at
the Court of Seven Sisters, ran by Jeene Davis at
the time.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Right, Yeah, he's the doorman there. So basically he's opening
opening cab doors and letting people in, you know, just
kind of the greeter if you will.

Speaker 9 (24:50):
Gotcha, Leander Perez, You mentioned that name, and that's so so.
Clay Bertrand, an actual guy, lived in New Orleans in
nineteen sixty three, and that's the thing his connects. He
was embedded into hard right circles in New Orleans in

(25:10):
nineteen sixty three, and Bill Elder actually used him as
a source. He was a he was an inside source
on info on the Ku Klux Klan. You know, apparently
he was a member and he was given Bill Elder
information on the Klan. But he was also, like you said,
a bodyguard of Leander Perez. Now Rob is the Wikipedia

(25:36):
guy and the new Orleans guy, the new refresh everybody's memory, dude,
tell us who Leander Perez was. Reach back into those
your archive, bro.

Speaker 10 (25:47):
Wow, he's the king of Plaquemines Parish down there. He
was a judge da for for a very long time
down there. Very popular guy with the people. He was
a very very rich man and a very very dirty
businessman when it comes to land deals and things of

(26:09):
this nature. And that's how he accumulated much of his
wealth down there. But and if you go on YouTube,
you know, you can see I think he was being
interviewed on firing Line with with William F. Buckley, and
you can see he's a big segregationist, racist dude, and

(26:32):
very non apologetic about his views. But yeah, he's He
was definitely a character. He definitely had deep pockets.

Speaker 11 (26:42):
And he was definitely connected to the hard right in and.

Speaker 10 (26:45):
Around New Orleans down there, dude, he was huge, popular names.

Speaker 9 (26:49):
Yeah, huge in the hard right. Now, I'm gonna I'm
gonna lead you guys. Now, this is going back to
why is there a reason Garrison would ignore or or
choose to ignore this lead? Could it lead somewhere embarrassing? Right?
That's kind of where I'm.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Getting before we get away from Perez. Yeah, yeah, let
me throw let me throw something in here. So another
he was a source, as you said, to be Bill Elder,
but he wanted to kind of control the media in
many ways. He put the parts of the story out
that he wanted. Another person that he was a big
source to was a guy by the name of Ned

(27:28):
Touchstone who owned a couple of publications up in Shreeport.
And it's interesting to know that General Walker was visiting
Ned Touchstone at the time of the assassination, so that
that's key. Another thing I did not know that.

Speaker 9 (27:44):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah. Another guy, another guy who was he was real
close with was Congressman John Rerick, who was another far
right guy who was really a big segregationist. And his
home stomping ground, the place where he was judge in
nineteen sixty two nineteen sixty three was Clinton, Louisiana.

Speaker 9 (28:07):
Wow, it's a small circle, isn't it. That we studied.

Speaker 10 (28:10):
Yes, indeed, Well, when General Walker was he left New Orleans,
you know, I think the morning of the twenty second
and headed the Shreveport where he met with his dude.

Speaker 11 (28:20):
But when he was still in New.

Speaker 10 (28:23):
Orleans, he had been there for a couple of days
and had met with Leander Perez, being one one of
the people that he didn't meet with in New Orleans
before he left for Streeveport.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 10 (28:34):
So you have this big nexus of all these big
powerful right wingers meeting up right around the time of
the assassination in New Orleans and Streetport.

Speaker 9 (28:43):
And one of them happens to have a personal bodyguard
named Claire Clay Bertrand exactly. Now, all right, fellas, all right,
I tell you I got a comfy chair in this
in this new studio. So I'm gonna kick back right now.
And we're and we're still We're still with the administraight jail,

(29:04):
We're still with a Claiborne bertrand we're still with Leander Kurez. Right,
but I'm gonna kick back. Relax now, I'm starting to relax,
Rob we think, yes, subtle in I'm gonna share some
stuff with y'all already. This is cool. Why with Jim Garrison?
Oh and and look this is for all the listeners.

(29:25):
I realized that a notable Loan Nutter has recently published
a book very critical of Jim Garrison.

Speaker 13 (29:33):
Hey, he's got a second one out. Yeah, that's hit piece,
That's what I mean. And that's not what we're doing here, man.
We're we're we're getting in the weeds. We're trying to
figure this stuff out.

Speaker 9 (29:43):
Right. We got this amazing account of the Garrison investigation.
So guys, this is no kind of I can hear
the Canadian crowd now, you know. It's a concerted effort.
Dismear no, kiss my ass. I prepared this episode months
ago and I'm just now getting around to it.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
So so look, I'm sorry, Doug, I gotta throw something
else in here.

Speaker 12 (30:05):
I do it.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
I've mentioned to you recently that Edwin Lee mcgeehey down
in Clinton, Louisiana is still alive and well. And I
now after COVID who knows, But before COVID, I interviewed
him and the same lone Nutter author that you just mentioned.
I tried to hook him up with him and he
refused to even take the time to interview it. So

(30:28):
what does that tell you? If you know, again ignoring leads.

Speaker 9 (30:33):
Like dude, you hit it right right on the head earlier.
There's a hell of a whole lot of that that
goes around for sure. Yep, you know for sure, But
we're not gonna do that. We're gonna explore, guys, We're
gonna we're gonna kick back and talk about the details.
We're gonna get in the weeds, because, as Rob says,
you've got this whole nexus of these hard right, hard

(30:54):
right guys, you know, all getting around getting together around
the assassination, and and they've known each other for years.
So let me share some stuff with you, guys. Okay, Now,
what we're talking about here is Leander Perez's connection to
a man that Rob recently had as a feature topic

(31:14):
on an episode of The Long Gun But Podcast, Guy Banister.
Now you have Leander Perez who has a bodyguard named
Clay Bertrand all right, now, guys, this is not fiction.
This is not supposition, this is not assumption, this is
not speculation. This is real. Leander Perez's bodyguard was named

(31:39):
Clay Bertrand he was a real guy. You need to
you need to understand that, all right, nobody's making this
shit up. Okay, all right, right, And Perez his connections
to Banister are crazy, Okay. In nineteen sixty one, Guy
Banister ran for Councilman at Large and due to his

(32:00):
hard right positions. Perez and his organization called the Citizens
Council for a Greater New Orleans backed Banister all right,
one hundred percent. They were even photographed together. Okay, and

(32:21):
now what I'm gonna read for you now is from
jfkonline dot com. This is a great piece by a
researcher named Jerry Shenley. And don't know what year it
was published over there, but it's pretty old. It's called
Guy Banister, Leander Perez, and Jim Garrison. Jerry Shenley was
way ahead of us on this. I have no idea

(32:42):
who that was. Don't know if he was a lone
nutter or a conspiracy guy or a history writer. I
have no idea. All right, But.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
There was a time when we were just truth seekers.
There weren't. We didn't need these different camps. It's a
sad the way it's turned out.

Speaker 9 (32:58):
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it's like you say,
if you don't conform to one person's way of thinking,
it's like, uh, I don't know if you're if you're
if you're familiar with something that happened to Rob and
I a couple of years ago. We called we referred
to as the proudy kerf fluffele are you I am not?

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Well?

Speaker 9 (33:19):
We objectively looked at claims Prouty made in his book
and that he had inserted into Oliver Stones film, juxtaposed
with what he told the Assassination Records review board about
the same topics. Okay, and nothing was the same, and

(33:42):
that drew nothing.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
I see where you're coming from.

Speaker 9 (33:48):
And we drew some in hl is what happened. We
drew some iron. Yes, we took some fire. We took
some friendly fire.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
That's gonna happen to me one day when I published
the follow up to Dirty Phoenix, when Dirty Bourbon comes out. Uh,
there's gonna be a lot of those folks in that camp.

Speaker 10 (34:11):
You know.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
I've set down, I've set across the table from Jim
Garrison and spoken with him. Yeah, most of most of
those people who worship him have never done that. Yet
those folks are going to be attacking me in the future.
You can count on it.

Speaker 9 (34:26):
Well, you know what, this is your safe zone bro here.
And I guarantee you I appreciate that quick hits in
the Lone Gum podcast and the Dallas Action you are
you are among friends right here. I promise.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Very good, but I didn't mean to interrupt you. Doug
continue please.

Speaker 9 (34:45):
Now, man, we're chilling. All right, We're gonna get into
these amazing connections. Okay, guys, I want you to think
jfk assassination Louisiana hard right, Lee Oswald? All right, I
want you to think that the hard right walker. Okay,
Jerry Shenley, Rob, have you you've read this article.

Speaker 10 (35:07):
Before, right, I'm familiar with the darchives. I think I
went looking for the Jerry Shenley Archives a little bit
ago and found that they had been I guess the
website they were hosted on was fired recently, so I
was a little disappointed, but I'm glad you found him
somewhere else.

Speaker 9 (35:26):
Yeah, you know what I do have I do have
that bookmarked, so after the show, I'll try to send
the link to you.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Guys. I appreciate it.

Speaker 9 (35:36):
Yeah, yeah, at least where I found this article, and
that may be able to lead, you know, to where
we found the other stuff. But and we want to
thank mister Shenley. Like I say, I don't know if
he was a loan nunner or one of us, but
he put this information in here and it's good information
because he's got it footnoted to documents and other articles.
He takes a lot of his information from New Orleans articles,

(35:59):
newspaper articles, accounts of the time, contemporaneous. So check this out.
Banister's next public connection with Perez, that's Leander Perez, the
man whose bodyguard was named Clay Bertrand excuse me, you
gotta I gotta keep hammering that point home. Yeah. Banister's

(36:24):
next public connection came with his participation as a speaker
in a Fourth of July rally in nineteen sixty one,
at which Perez was presented a Patriotism award. The rally
was organized by guess who robbed.

Speaker 10 (36:39):
Delphine Roberts.

Speaker 9 (36:40):
Delphine Roberts, acting on behalf of subthing called the National
Confederation for Conservative Government. All right. They were even photographed
together at that event by the New Orleans Times picking unit.
As a matter of fact, Now here's another. During Garrison's
campaign for District Attorney in fe be Wary of nineteen

(37:01):
sixty two, that's what we're talking about here against incumbent
Richard Dowling. Again, we're reading from the Shindley archive. As
the campaign heated up, I wish I had some like
noir detective jazz from the forties to play under this.
This is gonna be great. As the campaign heated.

Speaker 11 (37:22):
Up, Rob, I'll take care of it in post production.

Speaker 9 (37:26):
Yes, yes, Mom, Momenta, the can right now. That's why
we had the echo. As the campaign heated up, an
incident occurred. Now, this is during Jim Garrison's campaign for
District's Attorney against Richard Dowling in nineteen sixty two. I
get that right. Nineteen sixty two, February, an incident occurred

(37:50):
involving the distribution of a quote unquote pornographic campaign circular unquote.
And this is from the New Orleans Times, picking you.
The targets were Richard Dowling and State Senator Adrian Duplantier,
then a candidate from Mayor opposing the incumbent Victor Siro.

(38:13):
A man named James l Arthus, sixty nine, was arrested
and charged with violation of obscenity and political campaign laws.
According to an affidavit from Glenn P. Clayson, du Plantier's
campaign manager, quote James l Arthus stated that one George Singleman,

(38:36):
executive assistant to Judge Leander H. Perez, was the one
in charge of distributing one hundred thousand copies of the
aforementioned obscene libeloust document. Okay, now, let's stop right there.

(38:58):
Leander Perez think.

Speaker 10 (39:00):
Got three copies per person in New Orleans at the time.
Problem right, good lord.

Speaker 9 (39:07):
One of the targets was Richard Dowling, Garrison's incumbent opponent
of this pornographic circular that's being passed out by Judge
Leander Perez's assistant to James Arthists. James Arthurs ratted out this.
James Arthurst ratting them out right now. House Select Committee

(39:30):
on Assassinations, Volume ten, page one, twenty four one twenty
five m H identifies one James Arthurs as the janitor
and a resident of the Newman Building at five forty
four Camp Street. So the guy who got one hundred

(39:58):
thousand copies of a Porner graphic campaign circular targeting Jim
Garrison's opponent from Leander Perez's assistant was Guy Banister's fucking janitor.

Speaker 10 (40:18):
You can't make this stuff up.

Speaker 9 (40:19):
You can't make this shit up. No, Unfortunately, So now
I'm gonna I'm gonna ask the question again. Could there
be a reason that Jim Garrison would purposely ignore the
lead of a young man named Claiborne Bertrand in the
French Quarter in nineteen sixty three.

Speaker 10 (40:43):
Yeah, well you gotta figure you know what this dude, Well,
let me put it like this. Okay, So Garrison is
DA of Orleans Parish. Leander Perez is pretty much a
d and judge and Blaquemines Parish.

Speaker 9 (41:02):
He's the political boss over there. He runs things in
that parish.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah, you know you.

Speaker 10 (41:08):
Have any certain I'm guessing professional respect for your legal counterparts.
You don't you understand what I'm saying, Like, there's certain
things that you just don't do professionally. And you know,

(41:29):
I would look at extending a professional courtesy, uh to
to you know, a fellow former DA and judge. And
of course Garrison was a DA and then also became
a judge later on. And he you know, Garrison wasn't stupid.
He knows Leander Perez is a very very powerful and

(41:49):
rich man. Not the kind of person you want to
make an enemy out of, for sure. So yeah, it
does make sense that he would ignore this lead that
could tie back to Leander Perez for sure.

Speaker 9 (42:09):
You know, if I were him, I don't know if
I'd pursue it.

Speaker 10 (42:15):
I mean, just like you know, he didn't pursue the
the you know, the Marcelo leads for a good reason,
you know, Like I said.

Speaker 9 (42:22):
The whole second wasn't man.

Speaker 10 (42:25):
Yeah, brother, you know who's powerful, you know who has
deep pockets? You know, you don't you don't tungue on
Superman's cape, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
You don't.

Speaker 10 (42:36):
You don't stick a pin in King Colmb's tone name.

Speaker 5 (42:40):
You know.

Speaker 10 (42:40):
You just there's certain things you just don't do, you know.
And the fact that this Claiborn Bertran guy was such
a popular figure in his youth, you know, and and
you know, high school football back then, of course, was
a big, big time and he seems like that it
sounds like that he was a very well known character,

(43:01):
you know, down in the French quarter at the time.
And the fact that you know, none of Garrison's informants
could come up with this guy. I mean, it seems
like anybody would have dropped a dime on this guy. Yeah,
I knew Clay bertrand he's a bouncer down to show bar,
you know, blah blah blah.

Speaker 11 (43:20):
It sounds to me like this league was intentionally not followed.

Speaker 10 (43:25):
And you know, the sites came set on a figure
that they made more sense, at least to Garrison at
the time to attribute to the Clay Bertrand name, and
that was Clay Shaw, who I personally don't believe was
was Clay Bertrand or ever used the name. He may

(43:45):
have used the name Clay Bertrand. I mean, who knows that.
I mean, this guy, the real Clay Bertrand. I don't
know if he was or do you know if he
was a homosexual or not.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Hl I don't publicly say that usually, but yeah, he was.

Speaker 10 (44:00):
Okay, so he may have been a very colorful character,
if you know what I'm saying. And in the in
the gay community in New Orleans, you know, h.

Speaker 11 (44:15):
He could have been a notorious gay character who did
flamboyant things or uh maybe.

Speaker 10 (44:24):
With somebody that that community respected, or maybe they maybe
they used his name. Two. I don't know, attribute some
kind of a mask or a moniker to someone in
the gay community. I don't know if I'm saying that right,
but you know, just the way he may have handled hisself,

(44:47):
he sounds like a pretty pretty wild character. You know,
he may have been somebody that that community looked up
to and was like, yeah, you know, you know, you
just pulled to Clay Bertrand or you know, you know
what I'm saying, Like, I don't know, it's uh, we just.

Speaker 9 (45:04):
Pull the Clay brand, you know, Yeah, I get it.

Speaker 10 (45:08):
It just seems to me like this this guy was
pretty well known and I highly doubt that that Garrison's
A team would not have known about this guy. You know,
it just doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't know
who this guy was.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Uh.

Speaker 11 (45:24):
And once they did find that out who he was
connected to, and said.

Speaker 10 (45:28):
Okay, well let's just hands off of this guy, okay.
And it seems to me like like you mentioned before,
Doug about the nurse, Yeah, Claire Bertrand, you know, and
if they're almost looking for any kind of way to
make Clay Bertrand not.

Speaker 11 (45:49):
This guy, the real Clay Bertrand, you know, yeah, well
maybe if.

Speaker 10 (45:53):
Dean Andrews was in in his fugue state and and
the nurse came in.

Speaker 14 (45:57):
And said, Hi, I'm Kay Bertrand, I'm going to be
taking care of you. To seeing it sir, you know, Oh,
it sounds like claybursing, Right, I mean maybe, yeah, maybe
that's what he heard, you know, blah blah blah.

Speaker 9 (46:11):
And it just sounds like to me it's a case
of when you read that that account by Tom Bethel,
like they're riding around and he goes, hey, well you
know we got that that one guy. You know, we
heard that there was a Claire Bertrand that worked at
the hospital. We could go check that out. And they
kind of went, nah, can you imagine, Oh Jesus, they
need us alive in the press. Fuck that. And that's

(46:31):
basically what they did. And because that would have cast
obviously doubt by anybody that was being intellectually honest about
the case, Right.

Speaker 11 (46:42):
Yeah, yeah, I'll go ahead, Achael.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
I was just gonna say, in all fairness, we don't
even know for a fact that they took that information
to Garrison.

Speaker 9 (46:52):
That's true, that's true. You know if you look now,
if you believe, like, well, you've proven it, you've laid
it out in your book, hil what we earlier, let
me repeat it. W w L TV commentator Bill Elder
told Sciambra that investigator Lou Ivand that Bertrand had worked

(47:13):
on Bourbon Street, at the show bar, but had since
graduated from Tulane and moved to La Faya. That's February twentieth.
February twenty fifth, lou Ivan writes a memo to Garrison
that he had no leads and could not locate anybody
named klay Bertrand despite numerous inquiries and contacts. Yeah, you

(47:36):
know that lead was was was absolutely ignored and that
could have been a case of oh shit, that leads back,
that leads back to Perez. Well, don't put that in
a report, right, you know what I'm saying, exactly right? Yeah.

Speaker 10 (47:52):
Well you also have to think too, Doug. I mean
when you when you open the show and you were
asking the question of why so many of these investigators
decide to decided to quit the Garrison investigation.

Speaker 11 (48:07):
You know, if you're in that if you're in that
miliu and you're of.

Speaker 10 (48:15):
The mindset, Okay, the Garrison is doing the right thing,
and you know you are, you're investigating or helping to
investigate this case and reporting back to him, you almost
have to put yourself in their shoes. Okay, Why would
an investigator.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Feel the need.

Speaker 10 (48:37):
If they feel like they're doing the right thing by
investigating this you know, supposed thing.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, and it you know.

Speaker 10 (48:44):
It comes back to okay, if if you're doing if
you're putting in the leg work and you're reporting things
back and nothing has ever followed up on, or they're
ignoring what you're telling them, you know, it could be very.

Speaker 9 (48:58):
Disheartening exasperation, Yeah, for.

Speaker 10 (49:02):
Somebody investigating this thing and you know, to finally just
say all right, well fuck it, I quit. Good luck
to you, buddy, uh and your future endeavors. And you
know you have a lot And that's what we're not
to talk of one, two, three, four or five people.
You're talking tens of people quitting the Gearson investigation for

(49:24):
one reason or another. And it is something that you know,
you have to address. I mean, are all these people
wrong or do they have a valid right to be
pissed and quit?

Speaker 9 (49:40):
As as I said, you know at the beginning, that's
what other than some leads that should have been followed
up that weren't, and they weren't obviously purposely not followed
up on. The other theme is doubts among the staff
about you know, are we doing the right thing, Doubts
among the staff for all these hangers on like, you know,

(50:03):
all of the people, the first generation researchers that kind
of glommed on, and the people like Himinghen Hall that
kind of showed up, and and lots of doubts. I've learned.
There's some pretty uh, pretty uh funny stuff in there too, man,
about about that kind of thing, you know, uh meetings

(50:23):
and inside baseball and that kind of thing. But Rob,
I wanted to ask you something about Jack Martin. You
and Joe BURRELLI did a presentation last year at l
answer about Jack Martin. Now, what do you think about
Jack Martin as being trustworthy when being interviewed and we're
talking about Edward scrugs here, yes or no? Or is

(50:46):
he liable to tell the truth?

Speaker 10 (50:48):
You think that's a very hard question to answer, bate
on you know, things you read, and I mean, there's
just there's just so much out there on this guy.
But his basic story has stayed the same, you know,

(51:09):
given a few variants of minor details throughout the years,
and even on the show last night. I happened to
have a copy of his HSCA interview that Buris and
Delsa did with him in nineteen seventy seven.

Speaker 9 (51:26):
Wow.

Speaker 10 (51:28):
Yeah, and he pretty much stayed with his story that
he had been telling throughout the years, and you know,
when you put it up against other things like what
Delphine Roberts had to say a little later, all the things.

(51:49):
But I came across this lawsuit.

Speaker 11 (51:54):
That Jack Martin had filed against Garrison in nineteen seventy three.

Speaker 10 (52:00):
Him and this guy John English brought this civil class
action lawsuit against Garrison and a couple other people, I
don't know who they were, and it was something about
a bribery deal having to do with the you know,

(52:21):
I guess, greasing the palms of a construction company to
get a certain contract. And a judge had witnessed this,
and I guess he had told Garrison about it, but
Garrison didn't do anything about it. Blind eye type of thing.
But he had also pulled in g Ray Gill Junior

(52:42):
as having witnessed this deal. And I actually came across
like a thirty or forty page deposition. They deposed Jack
Martin in nineteen seventy three for this lawsuit, and it
was it was really too much to go through on
the show last night. I was going to put up

(53:03):
a link to it, you know, today so at some point.
But it's a very interesting read. But again, is he
a trustworthy source? I don't know because Garrison didn't use him.
So what does that tell you?

Speaker 9 (53:20):
He was interviewed by Garrisons Stan, he.

Speaker 10 (53:22):
Was interviewed, Yeah, but he was not part of the
clay Shaw trial or the grand jury. So what that
right there tells me a lot?

Speaker 9 (53:33):
Well, you remember we were talking about James l. Arthus,
who is uh the he's the janitor of the five
point forty four Camp Street building. And he also passed
out all these flyers that that were apparently it had
some had Garrison's. It was a crude drawing apparently did

(53:55):
that Garrison's opponent and a monkey, like.

Speaker 10 (53:58):
A monkey fucking of football.

Speaker 9 (54:01):
Or a da you know doing the monkey apparently is
what it was. And this James L. Arthur's had, you know,
one hundred thousand copies of this shit. But Jack Martin
was actually interviewed by Garrison's staff Lou Ivan, as a
matter of fact. No, it was an interview of Jack

(54:27):
Martin conducted by Pershing Gervais, recorded by Lou Ivan. All right,
and this was on December thirteenth of nineteen sixty six,
and This is what Jack Martin had to say about
James Arthus. He identified him as the old man who
put out the monkey picture against Dowling. Remember that was

(54:50):
Garrison's opponent in the election. Located at Camp Street around
Lafant Square. He's retired. He does nothing. He just copies
the Nazi newspapers and fights segregation. Martin went on to
a ledge that Lee Harvey Oswald had offices right next

(55:12):
door to Arthus, and that Arthus at one time had
quote all of Oswald's paraphernalia up there.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
Yeah, oh yeah, there's some crazy pictures and from the
Times Picky youn from I guess the late sixties of
Arthur's vehicle, and he had all these posters on the
side of the cars looked like a clown car with
all these antis. Are these segregative segregation type slogans and such.

(55:45):
It's it's crazy and that's documented in the Times. Picky
you wow.

Speaker 9 (55:50):
Yeah, that guy he was something. And but according to Martin,
a lot of the Oswald paraphernalia I guess Robbie's AHL's
referring to the the fair Play for Cuba pamphlets maybe leaflets.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Yeah, and there were also those books by Corlis.

Speaker 9 (56:10):
What's his name, Corlis?

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Yeah, So I think they all originated from that building,
long before Oswald got a whole of them. I think
they were up there, so that that's probably what they're referencing.

Speaker 9 (56:25):
So we've got an office building that is, in essence
a a hard right stronghold. Suddenly there's a there's there's
an avowed Marxist running extreme liftist operations out of there,
and he's allowed to do it.

Speaker 10 (56:45):
Well, Doug, I came across this guy, right, George Hickinbotham.

Speaker 9 (56:50):
I've heard the name.

Speaker 10 (56:53):
He was an investigator for Guy Banister in the early sixties,
and I came across this, I guess an interview that
Barbara Reid and investigated for years and it had done
with him and listen to this. So the first night

(57:13):
he was here, referring to Higginbotham, he showed me a state.
He showed me copies of three letters the Banister had
wrote to him, being Higginbotham, concerning Banisters, providing him with
false credentials and a cover for infiltrating communist groups. His

(57:35):
code name was to be Dale.

Speaker 9 (57:38):
Well there you go, right, I mean, now, who does
this sound like sounds.

Speaker 10 (57:46):
Who had an alias and who was trying to infiltrate
either communists or anti communist groups.

Speaker 9 (57:53):
Oswald, right, yeah, and it works something like this. Oswald
puts on the placard. Right. He goes out with the
with the with the flyers, says, right here for info,
drop a postcard. Anybody that sends a postcard, please send
me more information on your organization and your cause. Banister

(58:14):
takes their name and they go on a file. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 (58:19):
Now he goes one to say Doug that his reason
for severing ties with Banister he attributes to a definite
nervousness upon seeing creates of obvious military supplies in the
back room. There were apparently meetings being held there as well,
and for some time he said that Banister and Kent
Courtney worked closely. However, Banister does not have a good

(58:41):
opinion of Courtney, considering him too mercenary and having loosed lips.

Speaker 10 (58:48):
He says, there's also quite a bit of radio equipment
in the back room, along with various communist literature and placards.
At Banister's office, he says, uh, George Lincoln Rockwell, who
was of course the head of the Nazi Party American
Nazi Party stayed at Mike Slader's apartment on Royal Street

(59:10):
before they moved to Plaque Mines Perish together.

Speaker 9 (59:16):
Which is, yeah, the stronghold of General Leander Perez Wow,
whose bodyguard was again.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Clay Bertrand Bertrand.

Speaker 10 (59:28):
And he says a young man named Eddie Porter, who
is now on the West Coast, told George that he
knew Oswald was a hustler on Royal Street, now hustlers
in quotes. George said, Porter did not specify the time,
or if he did, George hasn't remember, but Porter was
a homosexual. Now that's all. Harkins. Harkens back to an

(59:49):
episode I did a very long time ago entitled If
Lee Harvey.

Speaker 15 (59:53):
Oswald, in which I pulled out of I pulled out
of the Wisburg Archives, a story, an interview, a story.

Speaker 10 (01:00:08):
With a guy who claims that he met Oswald in
one of these parks, maybe Lafayette Park down there in
New Orleans, and for ten dollars, took him back to
his apartment and had a romping good time.

Speaker 9 (01:00:19):
If you know what I'm saying, I think that was Adell.

Speaker 16 (01:00:22):
Actually sorry, but he says Higgabotham used the kid Banister
about sharing a building with people passing out leaflets on
the street, and Banister said, cool it, cool it.

Speaker 10 (01:00:43):
One of them is one of mine.

Speaker 9 (01:00:46):
Yes, I've read that where he said that's one of
he's one of ours. Don't worry about him, don't worry
about him. I got him, you know, I got it.

Speaker 10 (01:00:54):
So there was a lot of this, there's a lot
of this stuff going around back then, And like I said,
I just find it so hard to believe that the
real Clay Bertrand in this unity of people that you
can draw definite connections.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Between, definitely was just not known to.

Speaker 10 (01:01:13):
The Garrison investigation. Yeah, no, that just makes no sense.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Certainly not the case.

Speaker 9 (01:01:20):
Right, I'm like you, guys, I think they knew he
was there, and they absolutely walked around him, one hundred percent.
They walked around him quietly, yep.

Speaker 10 (01:01:29):
Quiet reason to Garrison.

Speaker 9 (01:01:33):
Because of what it would lead right back to. And
unlike the Claire Bertrand nurse, it wasn't embarrassing. It was
potentially dangerous. I think. Yeah, yeah, to say the least,
To say the least, well, hey guys, we got more
to get into. But it is TDA musical interlude. Time

(01:01:55):
you guys want to take about a ten minute break
man stretch our legs come back to it. So good Sam,
Good guys. This is t d A two eleven with
h L Rldge and the big Homie Rob Clark. We
will be right back after.

Speaker 7 (01:02:10):
This Chester Chester Chest.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Put your hard hats on.

Speaker 11 (01:02:24):
We're going to work hit a little Dunn Street.

Speaker 6 (01:02:30):
This is hash man rat sprat stag.

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When this is rocking, see niggas tropping like.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
The nashtacks, fats black.

Speaker 17 (01:02:36):
Popping like a asstas bat trapping that cash on top
of that of getting ass caaf stacks high in that skide.

Speaker 6 (01:02:42):
Never sleep meaning number all night alive.

Speaker 17 (01:02:45):
But then the tribeck the streets untouchable. Whatever in your
bring strick to the bone. They called me more than
five homes that could piece yup.

Speaker 5 (01:02:52):
Be young.

Speaker 9 (01:02:52):
That other ship this is that Cuddy ship.

Speaker 6 (01:02:54):
Your team be chunk.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Ma'm just to wet stuffing clear telling.

Speaker 9 (01:02:57):
Me to hack someboddy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
So I had to hack somebody, stoopid question and I'm
even with.

Speaker 6 (01:03:01):
My hatchet bluddy rapping study and they trying.

Speaker 9 (01:03:04):
To catch the jab it from me.

Speaker 12 (01:03:05):
How your much fright so.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
My mats mo fuck me, maptists up me. He don't
go hoods mats love me all doun go to heaven,
but no cats above me.

Speaker 10 (01:03:12):
No, he's talking to me.

Speaker 18 (01:03:14):
Tompid Tilnick tombush Tom No come to Tompany screm he
Timnick Tom to me company Tom Thompson's Trimnick Tom, come
to Tom House coping Tom Tom House took me Tompsons trimm.

Speaker 6 (01:03:33):
Fly like a doll in the cake, went behind t
five o'clock in my past.

Speaker 10 (01:03:37):
Give blocked in.

Speaker 7 (01:03:38):
Your face, y'all.

Speaker 17 (01:03:39):
Oh, there's Lomas the pay okay, suspens it for my
young teas.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I don't need Colin j Just send me, Send me, y'all,
send me.

Speaker 17 (01:03:45):
Damn si me, Hey, give me the money you're wanting
to get displayed.

Speaker 6 (01:03:49):
Buring penitent to me hard, Oh my.

Speaker 7 (01:03:51):
God, damn from the Home of the month.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Just fooks the car fun patrol me these suns the
corner zone. You win, onder yold and over your campone
bull like over Jones when you're a repulse saying that
remots to moone that south cut of death and death
mindsetting orphan told smoking on the boards alone, killing them
with the gorgeous tone blow releases old and got recorded
her a bumba the water or can call wheeling.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
On y'all hooke, Sad is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
No panding on yall, copy back in the game attacking
lands and sailing on y'all Spidey scaling on balls.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
This is sad bens fucking man feanling.

Speaker 17 (01:04:19):
On your hoppy swiating like I got that he healing
on call kill cycle trading.

Speaker 6 (01:04:24):
Fresh lit a paneling on yall.

Speaker 9 (01:04:49):
Hey, we are back with the second half of the
Dallas action presented by Wall Street Window episode two eleven
with her friends Rob Clarke and h. L Arlich And guys.
You know, I was a little over ambitious when I
asked you guys to join me on the show. I
thought we could give an overview of this document in

(01:05:09):
an episode. But there's just so much here to unpack now.
And on that note, we are going to go on
a bit of a tangent for some more historical context
regarding New Orleans in the sixties and Jim Garrison's time
as DA through the window of investigator Tom Bethel's fifty

(01:05:34):
one page typed personal diary of some of his time
on Garrison's staff during the investigation of the JFK assassination
and the prosecution of Clay Shaw. So what are we
talking about? Talking about organized crime in New Orleans and

(01:05:56):
the curious way Garrison seemed to deal with it. Robin Hl, First,
I want to read from Tom Bethel's diary. This is
a say this is a Tuesday, September nineteenth, nineteen sixty seven.
Tom Bethel, paid investigator for Jim Garrison Rights effect of

(01:06:19):
the Life articles on organized crime parenthetically Life September one
and September eight, nineteen sixty seven. Garrison has instituted a
grand jury investigation of organized crime and has offered to
resign if any is found. Pause for dramatic effect and

(01:06:46):
or possible remark from Robin Hl at that point.

Speaker 10 (01:06:52):
Which didn't happen?

Speaker 5 (01:06:53):
Right?

Speaker 9 (01:06:55):
Which did not happen? Next?

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Like, I mean, who's going to come forward to with
such evidence? Someone with a death wish?

Speaker 9 (01:07:06):
Certainly? Certainly, But I mean this we're talking about nineteen
sixty seven, though you know nineteen sixty seven, correct me
if I'm wrong. But Carlos Marcello had by nineteen sixty
seven been indicted and tried on organized crime charges several
times before nineteen sixty seven. I mean, the fact that

(01:07:27):
there is organized crime and organized crime in New Orleans
was not a secret by any stretch of the imagination
at that point, was it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
No, not at all? Improving it, I guess is a
different thing. Though. It's kind of just a couple of
caveats here though. Yeah, in nineteen I want to say,
nineteen fifty seven, something like that, Carlos Marcello went straight.
He stopped the rackets and went into real estate, and

(01:07:58):
from then on, according to him, he was completely legit.
And it's kind of funny because he is. There's someone
who quoted him that I had talked to this, a
guy who's actually his nephew, said that Carlos said the
reason he got out of the rackets was because the
government was tough, tough competition. So, but the other thing

(01:08:19):
I want to mention is Carlos Marcelo's dad adopted a pseudonym.
And I'm, off the top of my head, I'm forgetting
their real name, but he had a different last name.
He got into trouble and he changed his last name
to Marcello. So even though mark Cello is the proper

(01:08:43):
Italian pronunciation, it's not it's not happening here in Louisiana. Carlos,
Marcelo's dad didn't know how to pronounce it. I guess
because it's always been Marcelo here.

Speaker 9 (01:08:55):
Well, thank you, thank you for correct You know, years
ago I actually pronounced it that way, and it seems
like sometime in the last ten years I just changed.
I can't explain it. You know, Marcello looks it's it
rolls off the tongue more naturally. But I guess everybody
else says Marcello, you know, maybe maybe that's it. It's

(01:09:16):
pure pressure. But so he said he was legit. You
believe you think he was, You think he got away
from right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
I absolutely don't.

Speaker 9 (01:09:25):
But but he was.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Also he was a different guy though. He was very adamant.
I mean that was his official story, not just to
the public, but it was also his official story to
his family. He was adamant except for his brothers everything
as far as his his kids and his grandkids. He
didn't want them in the business at all, so he

(01:09:48):
tried to keep them. He would he would fund them,
he would help them go legit if they wanted to
get into real estate or the things that he was
saying that he was a part of. But he and
his brothers they a different story. They they were old
school mafia and were until the day they died.

Speaker 9 (01:10:07):
So uh, back to the the the nineteenth of September, Uh,
they say. The guy says here Garrison his Institute of
the Grand Jury Investigation of Organized Crime. On the filing front.
It contains, uh, it says a mob quote that's in quotes.
File was instituted casually by Garrison. It contains one memo

(01:10:29):
which g just wrote. So but now, you Hl, you
know a lot. You're you're the you're the history guy.
So when you can jump in here and offer some context,
please do. But there, this is a fascinating little episode
that within within history, this history that Bethel relates to.

(01:10:52):
And I don't I don't think I was ever ever
aware of the Life magazine articles that he refers to
before I read his account here. But it's a fascinating episode.
You guys are both familiar these articles that were published
by Life Magazine, like I say, there in nineteen sixty seven,

(01:11:14):
and it caused quite a stir amongst the civic and
political leader class in New Orleans. Now, Aga, you were
all over this with stuff you were sending me before
we did this episode the first time. The gist is
that on September first, the September eighth Life magazine published
big stories on the power and influence of organized crime

(01:11:37):
in America and took particular aim at the state of
Louisiana and the administration of then Governor McKeithen and the
city of New Orleans. Now check this out. This is
from the October fifteenth, nineteen sixty seven issue of the
Washington Observer Newsletter, which curiously I've found in the archive

(01:12:01):
of CIA dot gov. Rob I don't, yeah, I found
that interesting. Imagine that. And it was marked sanitized for release,
So the Washington Observer Newsletter. Not sure what that was,
but the CIA has it partially redacted. Let's read a

(01:12:24):
little bit of this, and it has to do with
Garrison and this whole Life magazine thing. It says McKeithen
and the mafia. When Representative John Rerick, Democrat Louisiana, announced
his intention to run against Governor John McKeithen, few gave
the first term congressman much chance to beat the entrenched incumbent.

(01:12:48):
McKeithen had entrenched himself so well that some three hundred
and fifty thousand pledged contributions to Rerick suddenly dried up
after the governor learned the identities of the givers and
persuaded them to withdraw their pledges. In the last two weeks,
things have suddenly changed to the extent that many are

(01:13:09):
now giving odds that Rareck will defeat McKeithen. The press
covers every word Rareck says, and throngs are coming out
to hear him talk wherever he goes. The sudden change
is due to Life magazine's recent expose of the mafia
in Louisiana. Top mobster Carlos Marcello has been shown to

(01:13:30):
have direct connections with the McKeithen administration. McKeithen, alarmed get this,
Rob's gonna love this part, sent the Louisiana State Police
scurrying around the state to buy up all copies of
Life magazine.

Speaker 11 (01:13:50):
That is a gigantic test, requiring a.

Speaker 9 (01:13:53):
Lot of money, a lot of cruisers, Yeah, yeah, a
lot of cruisers, a lot of troopers, for sure, it
goes on. The revelations have upset McKeithen so much that
he promised to resign if Life's accusations could be proven,
and The Washington Observer has learned on good authority that

(01:14:14):
on Wednesday, September twenty second, seventh, McKeithen flew to New
York to plea for forgiveness from Life magazine, and then
and there offered the magazine an eighty thousand dollars advertising
contract from the state if they would lay off him.
But Life is playing. But Life is playing for much

(01:14:36):
bigger stakes than an advertising contract. And then it says,
note Life does not mean to help Rerick. Real target
is not McKeithen, but New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison,
whose investigation of the Kennedy assassination. Life means to stop

(01:14:56):
at all costs. The next paragraph is redacted. I don't
know what this was, man, Is this some sort of
internal CIA newsletter? The Washington Observer newsletter?

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
I had mentioned ned Touchstone earlier. Yeah, he produced three
different newsletters. That wasn't one of them. But just to
give you an idea, newsletters were really common at the
time for different factions. Segregations were a big part of that.
But you could get newsletters on almost any subject that
were pretty regular, and they were treated and almost respected

(01:15:35):
as much as newspapers. But within select groups.

Speaker 9 (01:15:40):
It's interesting that it's redacted. That's kind of blowing my
mind a little bit, you know, Yeah, exactly. They the
copy that the CIA got for whatever reason they saw
fit to excise text from, which is crazy. But on
that note, all right, Rob, guess what, buddy, what's that

(01:16:08):
McKeithen did go to New York to meet with Life
Magazine on September twenty seventh, nineteen sixty seven. The newsletter
has their information correct, right. This event, this visit where
he allegedly offers to bribe them with an advertising contract.

(01:16:28):
He actually went and Jim Garrison went with him. Bethel,
Mister Tom Bethel recorded it for history. I want to
read you guys this, This account says September twenty seven,
nineteen sixty seven. Garrison returns with McKeithen from New York.

(01:16:52):
Apparently they were shown additional data by Life Magazine, which
prompted McKeithen to admit that there was a wh I
was crime in Louisiana. This is Tom Bethel's words. Again.
Everybody in the DA's office is terribly upset that McKeithen
quote unquote blew his cool. As they put it, I

(01:17:14):
saw Garrison in the office later on, and a few
other people were there. He was really mad at McKeith,
and he said, he's got a wonderful face. He's got
the face of a wagon train leader traversing the continent.
But when he got back to New Orleans, this blob
stepped off the plane. He then gave the speech he

(01:17:36):
would have given if he had been governor. I wish
I had had a tape recorder because it was a
tour de force. I don't remember how it went, except
that at the first sentence was I don't have to
apologize for the state of Louisiana. After that, I was
admittedly hypnotized like everyone else in the room. I remember
thinking that he would only have to make a few

(01:17:57):
speeches like that, and he could get a elected governor anytime.

Speaker 2 (01:18:01):
He liked.

Speaker 9 (01:18:04):
Yeah, and I guess that was That's the thing for me,
Like I don't think the existence of the mafia organized
crime was at all in question in nineteen sixty seven,
And according to this now, I think we know Rob
that I think you and I agree. We've talked about

(01:18:26):
a guy named Dick Billings quite a bit who was
with Life magazine, and he certainly does come up in
this account with that Bethel wrote. But I don't think
there's any question that Life Magazine infiltrated Garrison's investigation. I
don't think you can and I don't think you could

(01:18:46):
deny that they were out to hamstring him, that they
were out to torpedo.

Speaker 10 (01:18:50):
Him, among other factions and government organizations as well. Yeah,
I mean, he was getting hit from all sizes. And
it makes another surprise, soever, given their vested interest in
their coverage of the Kennedy assassination, that they would want
some inside ears and eyes and the Garrison investigation as well.

(01:19:14):
You know what I'm saying, Because I mean they kind
of took the lead, at least in the printed media
immediately after the assassination. And of course the number one
goal here is to sell magazine, so.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
Or possible.

Speaker 10 (01:19:35):
One of the two. So if you can do both
two birds with one stone kind of deal, then why
wouldn't you.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
Yeah, And it's just to kind of throw this in
there just for the record. I interviewed over the years,
I've interviewed a lot of retired law enforcement officers, and
a lot of them when they when this subject comes up,
when the subject of the time Life are articles come
up on organized crime, they laugh because a lot of

(01:20:07):
the stuff that's in there is actually exaggerated. It's not
that it's not true. They just kind of blew some
things out of proportion, and law enforcement at the time
was very angry about those things. So they were they
were doing it. They had an extra grind that had
a goal, a specific goal beyond just getting the truth

(01:20:29):
out there.

Speaker 9 (01:20:31):
Oh amen. Now I want to ask you about a
guy that was affiliated with Life back then. HL a
guy named David Chandler. He's kind of legendary in all
this a little bit. There's a lot of cross pollination,
uh going on here with Life, a whole lot of it.

(01:20:51):
Now from you're familiar with David Chandler, Right, he was
kind of a legendary New Orleans journalist, worked for the
State's Item for a long time.

Speaker 5 (01:20:59):
Uh.

Speaker 9 (01:20:59):
Right, actually ran for governor in nineteen seventy one. But
what's interesting about this guy is that he was hired
at the beginning of nineteen sixty four, specifically to cover
the Kennedy assassination for Life magazine. Okay, now jump ahead

(01:21:20):
to sixty seven. Let me go back once shear Let's
see Oh, Yeah, we're going back. We're gonna jump forward
again to nineteen sixty seven. This is Bethel's account of
an encounter he had at dinner with this guy, this

(01:21:40):
David Chandler again, who was with the New York States
items Time Life magazine. Here we go. This is an
encounter at dinner one time. Chandler said that Life was
gonna come out with another mob story soon which would
specifically single Garrison out for attack. I'm sure all this
is off the record, right, Yeah, then probably after the

(01:22:05):
Shaw trial there would be another story about the assassination investigation.
Chandler wanted to know a what I thought of Garrison,
and b why I was working for him. No, they
weren't out the torpedo, and you know they're they're going
around the back, going after his investigators.

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:22:25):
I asked him why Life seemed to be singling out Louisiana.
Wasn't the situation bad anywhere else? He admitted the situation
was bad in New Jersey Massachusetts. He said that the
third article on Louisiana was provoked as much as anything
by the response of McKeith and Garrison of an offer
to resign if Life charges were true. This resignation offered

(01:22:47):
made it a good news story. Hey, now the next
diary entry I want to explore for you guys are
gonna jump ahead to February eighteen. And it taught me
something I learned for the first time, HL about an

(01:23:08):
organization called Truth or Consequences Incorporated. Never knew about this,
rob you ever hear about this?

Speaker 11 (01:23:17):
Well, that was I believe, a.

Speaker 10 (01:23:20):
Community funded support group for the years and investigation because
there were so many complaints that you know, he's wasting
taxpayer money looking into all this stuff. So this was
a viable alternative, you know, where he can get funding
for his investigation but not have to answer to the
quote unquote taxpayers and listen to them complain about it.

Speaker 9 (01:23:44):
So what did you what did you?

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 9 (01:23:47):
You called it like a prototype for crowdsourcing.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
Kind of yeah, yeaheah crowd Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:23:54):
Yeah, Okay, Well this next February eighteenth entry, it's really interesting.
Go fund me.

Speaker 10 (01:24:04):
The pro support the Garrison investigation. Follow this link.

Speaker 9 (01:24:08):
You know, maybe his his heirs on a file suit,
you know for the concept like we invented that whole thing,
you know, or our great grandfather did. Yeah. The February
eighteenth entry of Bethel's diary of the investigation is kind
of interesting, and it leads to a couple of interesting
things and a couple of interesting FBI documents. Now I
check this out, guys, February eighteenth. It covers a lot

(01:24:32):
of topics, but I want to read.

Speaker 7 (01:24:34):
Let's see.

Speaker 9 (01:24:36):
This part right here. Mister Bethel is recounting a conversation
with fellow investigator Lou Ivan. He says that Ivan was
more communicative than usual today. He said that three weeks
ago Governor McKeithen gave five thousand to Garrison for the investigation.
He was sort of talked into it by Willard Robertson,

(01:25:00):
Rault and Garrison. I haven't said that Willard Robertson had
practically underwritten the investigation and has personally donated twenty five
to thirty thousand dollars of his own money to Truth
or Consequences. However, I evan does not think Robertson intends
to give any more or is unlikely to. But now,

(01:25:22):
I'd never heard of this organization. But you know who had,
Clyde Tolson.

Speaker 10 (01:25:28):
That's right, Hoover's girlfriend, Hoover's.

Speaker 9 (01:25:32):
Buddy, his roommate, all right, We're gonna go back almost
one year from the Bethel Entry. Now, guys, to February
twenty third, nineteen sixty seven, one day after the untimely
death of Garrison's real investigative target, David Ferry. Okay, well,

(01:25:53):
this is a House Select Committee on Assassinations folder Lee
Harvey Adwell Oswald called dictation date two twenty three, nineteen
sixty seven, is the document we're reading from now. Apparently
Clyde Tolson is asking some folks to look into either

(01:26:17):
truth or consequences, or Jim Garrison or the people behind
him or all three. Check this out, pursue it to
mister Tolson's request, which he probably got from his boss
while in a hot tub. The following is set forth
from Bureau files regarding captioned individual millionaire Volkswagen distributor reportedly

(01:26:38):
financially backing District Attorney Jim Garrison. By communication dated ten,
eighteen sixty three, the New Orleans Office related that an informant,
won Frank Hedgeman, a public relations man with a notorious
reputation for passing bad checks and associating with various gambling figures,

(01:26:58):
was contacted on n sixteen, nineteen sixty three during During
this interview, he stated that Willard Robertson, a prominent and
wealthy New Orleans businessman, was currently supporting John McKeithen, a
Louisiana gubernatorial candidate in the state Democratic Party. Robertson reportedly
had been extremely active in New Orleans politics and had

(01:27:22):
raised large sums of money for previous political campaigns, particularly
that of Mayor Victor Schiro. Hageman attributed these political activities
to Robertson's desire for good government. Now uh jumb in anytime, guys,

(01:27:43):
here's the cool part, here's the meat. Hageman further stated
that Robertson had recently learned that McKeithen was being actively
backed by Carlos Marcello, a Jefferson Parish racketeer who was
attempting to raise campaign funds by promising contributors in fluence
in various state appointments. It was currently filed in political

(01:28:04):
circles that if Robertson were to withdraw his support, mckeithan
would stand little chance of election. Among those reportedly interested
in removing Robertson as the backer of McKeithen was United
States Senator Russell Long who supposedly was upset over Marcelo's
support of McKeithen rather than that of a candidate Speedy
long favored by guess who. Senator along Right Haygman advised

(01:28:29):
that if McKeithen were elected governor of State of Louisiana,
it was it was commonly felt in political circles that
the state would become wide open in so far as
gambling and racketeering influence was concerned. Consequently, John J. McKeithen
was elected governor in Louisiana in nineteen sixty four. New

(01:28:51):
Orleans one three to nine zero dash pc. That is
an informant Guys advised on ten twenty one, sixty six
he had learned that Carlos Marcello had, at least on
one occasion in the past, had paid a round trip
air transportation for Jim Garrison to Las Vegas, Nevada. Garrison,

(01:29:12):
while in Las Vegas, stays at the Desert End Hotel,
and his bills are paid by that hotel. Marcello is
a New Orleans gambler and Lacos Son Nostra hoodlum. He
recently attended a meeting with twelve other hoodlums in New
York City, which received widespread publicity in the New York
City area. On nine thirty sixty six, he assaulted a

(01:29:34):
special agent of the FBI and is a waiting federal
trial on this charge. Very interesting the way that kind
of came full circle there.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
Huh oh yeah, talking about full circle. In the seventies,
we had I don't remember how many terms the guy, sir,
but Edwin Edwards was our governor in the seventies and
he I want to say he was at least three terms.
He may have been four as governor, and he run

(01:30:08):
multiple times with other people in between. Ultimately he went
to prison for ten years or so and came out,
got his own reality show and on television one of
the networks, and now he's no longer with us. But
Edwin Edwards was a notorious gambler. And the same thing.

(01:30:30):
Carlos funded a lot of his trips to Vegas as well,
So I guess that was a pattern.

Speaker 9 (01:30:35):
Hey man, I happen to know that here in the South.
You know, you can call him racketeers or not, but
like in the construction industry, they're not, you know, they
don't they don't wear Italian suits and you know, Bruno
Magley's shoes. You know, most they drive pickup trucks and

(01:30:56):
they play golf and they have Southern accents. But man
politicians and big wigs like that take a lot of
trips to a lot of NASCAR races to stay in
a lot of suites for free from the construction industry
in twenty twenty four, and it's the same thing, really,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
And Wells when Carlos used to say he was no
longer in the rackets, he was a businessman. That's exactly
what he was talking about. From his perspective. He was
doing what the rest of them were doing.

Speaker 11 (01:31:27):
He wasn't breaking ankles and you know, plugging dudes. He
was you know, shaking hands and greats of poems.

Speaker 2 (01:31:35):
That's right, That's the way he did business.

Speaker 11 (01:31:37):
You know, that's the same thing, just a different facade.

Speaker 10 (01:31:41):
You know.

Speaker 9 (01:31:42):
I read an account when we went prepared for the
episode about McKeithen and Robertson and Marcello in a land
development deal together like a third and a third and
a third around the same time. It was like they
Marcelo had the land right and Robertson had the contacts

(01:32:09):
in the construction industry. And McKeithen had the governorship and
there was some kind of bypass or a highway and
it ended up being developed, you know, but they made
sure to make sure that the highway went by Carlos's
land right, and then they all kind of jumped in
on the deal together.

Speaker 1 (01:32:27):
There.

Speaker 9 (01:32:29):
It was a pretty interesting account. Now, guys, once again,
I want to thank you fellas for joining me. And
I don't know if the listeners are aware, but we
tried to do this about a month ago or so
and Momo and I were in technical hell. It was bad, guys.
It was not a not a good day to be

(01:32:50):
a podcaster in Nashville that day. But mister hl this
this episode should have been out six weeks ago. But
I want to end on a little bit of a
lot or note fellas today, and real quick before.

Speaker 10 (01:33:06):
You get there, let me add this one thing, real quick.

Speaker 9 (01:33:08):
Dude, add all you want to rip my show is
your show, brother.

Speaker 11 (01:33:14):
And this is for this is for Rachel since we
got him here so.

Speaker 10 (01:33:21):
So you know, and and of course looking at all
this stuff and then investigating into these different characters in
New Orleans. Of course, Jack Martin is one of the
big ones, you know, to check into, right, and I
came across this document and it starts explaining how Jack
Martin's grandfather, this guy, Charles Martin, yeh, was involved in

(01:33:47):
snitching on.

Speaker 11 (01:33:50):
Bonnie and Clyde.

Speaker 9 (01:33:54):
Right, and and you're talking about you're talking about Edward Suggs. H.

Speaker 2 (01:34:00):
Well, no, not Jet, not that Jack Martin, not that
Jack Martin.

Speaker 11 (01:34:07):
So so I'm reading it and I'm like, well, how
you know, if if Jack Martin's an alias, how how
does he have a grandfather named Charles Martin?

Speaker 10 (01:34:15):
Right? So I came to realize that this is a
different Jack Martin. Right, but apparently this Jack Martin, this
is the Jack W. Martin, not Jack Ed's Martin. Jack W.

Speaker 11 (01:34:28):
Martin grandfather Charles Martin, uh, basically ratted.

Speaker 10 (01:34:34):
Him out to the FBI so that they knew where
they were going to be, set him up when they
when they got killed in the in the in the gunfight,
which I think went down in Louisiana, if I'm not mistaken, right.

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
Yeah, exactly right? Yeah, Okay, So then this.

Speaker 10 (01:34:50):
Guy, uh, Charles Martin, like a year after, you know,
Bonnie and Clyde get killed and the Bonnie and Clyde gang.

Speaker 11 (01:34:58):
Go down and get arrested and all that. He ends
up cutting half on a railroad track.

Speaker 9 (01:35:05):
Oh wow, right, yeah, Rob, I actually heard this on
the lung gunan Yeah, yeah, all the way. I heard
it in the truck dude on the way here to
do this today. I was listening to this, but please
go ahead. Fascinating story. Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:35:18):
So I'm thinking, all right, man, this is crazy, you know,
because you read about Banister's possible involvement when he was
at the FBI and the Bonnie and Clyde thing.

Speaker 9 (01:35:31):
And so then.

Speaker 11 (01:35:34):
I come across another document about this Jack W.

Speaker 10 (01:35:37):
Martin now HL it was a secret service document, Treasury Department,
and they dispatched agent John Rice, who was based in
New Orleans. I think he was at Barksdale Air Force
Base that day on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three.

(01:35:57):
This is his report. They said. They dispatched me to
go to you know, bumpfuck Egypt, Louisiana, to find this
guy Jack Martin and run him down investigating. They called
him at two o'clock on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three,

(01:36:20):
to go investigate Jack Martin.

Speaker 11 (01:36:22):
This is before Oswalda had even been arrested.

Speaker 2 (01:36:26):
MM hmm.

Speaker 10 (01:36:28):
They they're sending this guy out to investigate Jack Martin
in Louisiana. Now my my thinking is they got the
wrong Jack Martin.

Speaker 9 (01:36:39):
Well, they were on the ferry at that point, you know,
pretty early, because it wasn't it. Yeah, oh this is
even like, well that makes me wonder how it like,
you know, you got the Jack Martin and the ferry connection, right,
is impossible they heard about I don't know how early

(01:37:01):
they may have heard about Fairy and his uh and
his ride. But yeah, that is crazy that even before
Oswald's arrested, they're calling Louisiana going go pick go, go
pick up a guy named Jack Martin. Actually basically yeah, yeah,
I've never heard of this before.

Speaker 10 (01:37:18):
So the reason the FBI went and talked to Jack
Martin on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, No, it
was November twenty third, the day after, and that's when
Martin basically threw Ferry under the bus and told.

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):
Him all about Ferry, okay, okay, was because it.

Speaker 10 (01:37:39):
Was because Martin had talked to this other guy named
uh it was a w Hardy remember his last name,
but anyway, this guy was an FBI station. He told
the FBI that that Martin had told him about Ferry
being involved in the assassination. So I'm guessing not too

(01:38:02):
long after the assassination, somebody dropped a dime uh to
the FBI or secret servers about Jack Martin having knowledge
about the assassination, and that's what sent him in this
wild goose chase in the middle Louisiana and where Oswald
was even arrested, and.

Speaker 9 (01:38:21):
They immediately went they went looking for the wrong Jack
Martin basically, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:38:28):
This guy was of course named Jack Martin as well,
and he basically didn't have like a real nine to
five joe job either. They said he was possibly involved
in a religious cult and wanted to become a preacher,
which of course you can throw that back on Jack

(01:38:48):
s Martins will and you know, or ordained.

Speaker 9 (01:38:54):
Yeah, this Greek Orthodox Catholic secked sort of thing did
he seemed to be involved in. The David Ferry was
involved in as well. That seemed to be some sort
of you know, I don't even know what it was,
some kind of opus day for weirdos, you know, that's
that's a good way to put it, uh. But that's
at the parallel something it's a parallel though, for sure.

Speaker 10 (01:39:15):
Yeah, somebody knew something before Oswald was even arrested, and
it comes out of New Orleans.

Speaker 11 (01:39:21):
Yeah, which is fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
You know, it's interesting how they they've kind of combined
those two Jack Martin's, and somehow they've they've conflated them
because the other Jack Martin, Jack W. Martin, I can
tell you about him. He in the later sixties, around
sixty seven through sixty nine that area. He was big
in state government in Texas. So it's yeah, it's got

(01:39:45):
to be the same guy, because that's his name, Jack W. Martin,
that's his real.

Speaker 9 (01:39:49):
Name, the one they were they were they were by
name looking for before Oswald was arrested, Jack W.

Speaker 2 (01:39:56):
Martin. Yeah, So somehow they've confused the two. But it's
interesting that the other guy. I know that the first
guy was most likely not a you know, a vagrant,
jobless guy, because eventually he was huge in state government, big.
And how I found out is, you know, on on eBay,
I have all these ticklers set up for when photos

(01:40:17):
pop up that people are selling him hard to find
New Orleans related assassination folks, and of course one of
them is Jack Martin and this guy comes up all
the time. He was just huge.

Speaker 9 (01:40:29):
Wow, Wow, we're gonna blow Joe's mind with this one.

Speaker 11 (01:40:32):
Rob, I know you got another damn Jack Martin.

Speaker 9 (01:40:37):
Yeah, who could be tied to the New Orleans aspect
of the assassination and Texas politics. Come on, man, wow,
that's worthy of another lantern reresitation. I mean, for real though,
I mean to think that they were looking for this
guy and he ends up in Texas politics, that's a
what'd you say? Well, ago, you can't make this stuff

(01:40:59):
up exactly? Yeah. Now, speaking of you can't make it up,
we're gonna go out on a little bit of a
lighter note. Guys, I thought this was humorous. I thought
this little story from I believe it's now. This is
an Associated Press story. Actually, I may have it in
my notes here where the story came from. But we're

(01:41:21):
talking about probably the man who is the entire reason
that Clay Shaw was ever charged to begin with, Dean Andrews.
Din O. That's right, Ah, here we go. Let's see
nineteen sixty seven. Let me figure out where Okay, here

(01:41:43):
are I Dean Andrews. Dean Andrews, he is the new
Orleans attorney that says that, or he says and then
denied that someone named Clay Bertrand called him to try
to solicit his attorney attorney skills from mister Oswald in
Dallas on the night of the assassination. Then he denied it. Well,

(01:42:07):
Dean Andrews was a character, was he not? Guys?

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
Yes, indeed, all right, one of my favorites.

Speaker 9 (01:42:14):
One of our Yeah, we're gonna call this go ahead, sir.
I'm sorry, I was gonna say.

Speaker 2 (01:42:20):
Talking about the photos that I picked up on eBay
over the years, I've got several of Dean Andrews in
court with Carlos Marcello as one of his attorneys. Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:42:32):
Nice, Like what year? What years are we talking about here?

Speaker 10 (01:42:35):
For that?

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
That was I would say late sixties, early seventies.

Speaker 9 (01:42:40):
Oh wow, So same sort of time frame. Yeah, one
or two degrees of separation out there.

Speaker 2 (01:42:47):
Make this stuff up, dude, No matter which.

Speaker 9 (01:42:51):
Way you go, man, it's like pick a name, throw
a dart through Rafiel, David Morales and Carlos Marcello. You
can get there in two degrees. These three degrees of separation.
It's amazing, you know, it's amazing. We're gonna call this
last segment, guys, the final item, Dean Andrews gets some
get back. That's what we're gonna call.

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
All right, sounds good, All.

Speaker 9 (01:43:16):
Right, sounds good. This is New Orleans Associated Press. Truth
and Consequences Incorporated, the group of businessmen privately financing District
Attorney Jim Garrison's probe with the Kennedy assassination has lost
its name. The Secretary of State's office reported Saturday that

(01:43:38):
Attorney Dean Andrews called their office on May nineteen and
reserved the corporate name of Truth and Consequences, inc. A
paid money guys. Andrews is under indictment for perjury as
a result of the Garrison of Garrison's contention that he
lied before the Grand jury and aforementioned the Volkswagen Millionaire

(01:44:03):
importer Willard Robinson of He says, it looks like we
have to change our name, said Willard Robinson, one of
the three businessmen who organized the group. It includes fifty
men who pledged one hundred dollars monthly. However, Robertson said
loss of the name won't hamper the investigation in any way.
We still support Jim Garrison. Besides, he added, even if

(01:44:26):
Andrews has the name, what can he do with it?
Sit on it? Andrews said later.

Speaker 10 (01:44:37):
And with an ask that big it ain't going nowhere.

Speaker 9 (01:44:39):
They going no damn where. Andrew said his reason for
the move was that quote, an ounce of prevention is
worth a pound of cure. It's just a defensive measure.
Truth and consequence is organized after the New Orleans States
Items check the public records learned of the probe and
disclosed of the name's destinations and amounts spent agents Garrison

(01:45:01):
had sent around the country. So Dean Andrews I feel
like he was just any little way he could get
a little get back. And somebody clued him in that
the trademark on their name or whatever down at city
Hall was about to expire. So he calls up and
pays the I don't know what could it have been

(01:45:23):
in nineteen sixty seven, like twenty bucks at the most.
It just stole their damn name. Yeah, yeah, you know.
It was just it's like any kind of small victory,
a little fuck you Dean Andrews could get. He was
trying to get, you know. But I thought that was
humorous that he would grown man of his stature and

(01:45:47):
his you know place in the community would take the
time to do that something just like that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:52):
Indeed, just.

Speaker 9 (01:45:54):
Love it. Little pitpricking on him there, oh, Dean Andrews, man,
I think he may have been a little miss a
line through history, just a little. I don't know that
for sure, but it's a it's just a feeling. Hey, guys,
hl Rob, thank you so much, many many, many thanks
guys for joining me today and doing this for me

(01:46:15):
again and giving and giving me the grace through the
problems and donating your time again to the Dallas Action
for this fantastic conversation on this document. Thank you so much, guys,
I really appreciate it. And so to the listeners, the
you know few that remember and we'll come back around.

(01:46:36):
I shouldn't say that, mister hl rliche tell everybody where
they can find your awesome work, read your stuff, buy
your books, and learn lots of cool things. My man.

Speaker 2 (01:46:48):
All right, you guys, buy you Justice dot com is
the sight of my newspaper column. It's just true crime
stuff and we occasionally touch on the assassination. I've got
several books, said Amazon or really wherever you can buy
a book, you can buy them. But the fourth book
I want to mention, Dirty Phoenix, is part of a
series involving the assassination. It starts with the Dixie Mafia

(01:47:13):
of all things, but it starts slowly tying into New
Orleans and what happened there is very interesting. This real quick.
The story of the lady who gave me a lot
of the background for that book. She fled Phoenix City,
which was mafia territory before there was a mafia, you know,

(01:47:36):
and it was all organized crime, and she fled there
for her life after witnessing a murder, becoming a burlesque
dancer in New Orleans. And in time what's interesting is
she becomes friend with a fourteen year old boy who
swept up in the club, a guy by the name
of Lee Harvey Oswall. So yeah, that's that's dirty vote. Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:48:03):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
So she had a lot of interesting things to say,
and she was introduced to me by another guy you
might know named Jim Garrison.

Speaker 9 (01:48:14):
Oh wow, yeah, totally new to me, dude. I will
have that book. I will have that book elected the
electronic version before the end of the day. Absolutely, man, Yeah,
I need to read that for sure.

Speaker 5 (01:48:32):
Uh.

Speaker 9 (01:48:33):
The Dirty Phoenix guys by h L rldge again, You're
gonna you're gonna learn things that you're not gonna learn
anywhere else. This guy is, as I said in the intro,
he's part investigative reporter, he's part true crime historian, part
detective noir writer. I mean it's fantastic stuff, dude. I
really enjoy your work and uh you dude, glad to

(01:48:57):
call you a friend and a friend of the show
man for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:49:01):
Yeah, Doug, Rob, it's been a pleasure anytime I can
help you guys with anything. Just give me a yell awesome.

Speaker 9 (01:49:08):
Hell yeah, Rob, my man remind everybody how where why
they can enjoy the Loan Guming Podcast.

Speaker 10 (01:49:19):
Yes, thank you Doug for having me on, and thank
you to HL for being my coo rider on this
episode of the Dallas Action I always love coming on here.

Speaker 11 (01:49:28):
It's been a while and it's good to be back
in the saddle.

Speaker 10 (01:49:31):
You can check out everything the Lone Guming Podcast Let's
see on YouTube every Friday night at seven o'clock Eastern
live and in video format. If you want to come
hang out, just look for the channel on YouTube and
make sure you subscribe and you'll get notified every time
we go live, so check it out. And if you

(01:49:54):
can't watch us live, you can always check out the
audio stream anywhere. Good podcasts or listen to you can
find on the Loan Guming podcast. You can find this
show here, the Dallas Action, and you can find Quick
Hits show that me and Doug do together.

Speaker 2 (01:50:13):
And Real Quick Doug, Yeah, I got some breaking news,
breaking news.

Speaker 9 (01:50:17):
Oh man, dude, I don't have the trackloaded the Quick
Hits special report theme. Dang it, it's the old Monday
night football theme A jail. That's our breaking news music
on the other show. But go ahead, Robi, you caught
me off guard, but dude, throw it on me.

Speaker 10 (01:50:35):
Did I caught myself off guard? So yesterday apparently Jefferson
Morley tweeted out and I quote, I've got some news.

Speaker 19 (01:50:45):
I've been reporting on the JFK assassination story for three
decades now. Next week I'll be publishing a relevatory story
that penetrates and disrupts the government sixty year old account
of the assassination. The story I will tell adds more
detail to what I reported in my December twenty twenty
two quote smoking gun revelation at the National Press Club

(01:51:08):
the existence of a top secret CIA psychological warfare operation
involving Lee Harvey Oswald from January to November sixty three
that the CIA still conceals via overclassification. I will also
be conducting an invitation only press conference next week with
select members of the media to provide pre publication context

(01:51:30):
for why I think this is the most important JFK
story that I've ever done. If you're interested in participating,
DM me or get in touch via signal, so be
on the lookout next week. That's a great story from
Jefferson Morley that he claims is going to be a

(01:51:50):
smoking gun relevatory information concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and the CIA,
and if he's holding press conference about it, it sounds
like it might be a big deal.

Speaker 7 (01:52:02):
Rob.

Speaker 9 (01:52:02):
Do we need to we need to get a Loose
Moose Productions, the Quick Hit side of Loose Moose to
send a request to be involved.

Speaker 10 (01:52:14):
I don't know, I don't know. I don't know if
Jefferson likes us very much, but.

Speaker 9 (01:52:19):
Hey, he might not. Hey, how about how about I
just you know what? How about I just don't? How
about we just wait? Yeah? How about we just wait
and see what happens.

Speaker 10 (01:52:29):
Yeah, we can just wait and I write some commentary
on these new relative relative relevatory significant events or whatever
he's going to be talking about.

Speaker 9 (01:52:41):
I have a feeling. How about this. We pledge to
discuss and react on the next episode of Quick Hits,
which should be dropping within the next say, fifteen days. Yes, okay,
we'll do that. Yeah. Absolutely. But I did see a
little bit of a little bit of a something. Somebody
sent me something like look at this, and I was like, oh,

(01:53:03):
big revelatory. I clicked on it, and it didn't say anything. Now,
I wonder if that is in relate It's not in
relation to Oh, what was the document I did a
show on it, the crash investigation. It's not about that.
So I guess I need to go back and read
what he did in twenty twenty two.

Speaker 11 (01:53:24):
Here psychological warfare.

Speaker 10 (01:53:28):
And the dates January to November sixty three, which does
include a lot of time in New Orleans.

Speaker 9 (01:53:35):
So let's see now, now they usually kick off operations,
the operations will have a lot of facets in a
few moving parts. You know, another thing that happened in
January sixty three? What else happened in January of sixty three,
Himming and Hall took that rifle to La and dropped
it off right off the top of my head. That's

(01:53:57):
the only thing I could think of. Sore more to come?

Speaker 10 (01:54:01):
Hey, Rob, Yeah, I mean I think you have De
Moor and Shield meeting Oba for the first time in January.
I think as well, you know so, yeah, lots of
tangential things going on early that year. But when you're
talking about psyops.

Speaker 11 (01:54:23):
Connected with the c i A and Lee Harvey Oswald,
I mean, who knows what?

Speaker 10 (01:54:27):
Who knows what this is gonna be, But I'm interested interested,
color me bad and uh we will see.

Speaker 9 (01:54:35):
Well, we'll check it out, We'll we will react, and
hopefully by this time next week we'll all have an
idea of what's up. You know what I'm saying. So,
Jefferson Morley, we, despite your eagerness to jump the gun
on a couple of things earlier this year, we eagerly
await your yes, your thing there? All right, Well, guys, hey,

(01:54:59):
there's the music. Okay, what a great time. Wow. I'm
proud of this one and proud that you guys the
listeners hung out with us today. Mister H. L Arledge
and the big homie Rob Clark. Thank you for studying
this important subject with us. That's all we got on
behalf of Rob Clark, H L. Rlde and Momo Scara Nucci.

(01:55:22):
And look it's a new room, guys, new console. Please
forgive the echo. Momo ain't figured out this new setup yet.
It'll get better in the future. Hey, thanks for hanging out.
Thanks for playing along. I'm done, I'm out.

Speaker 12 (01:55:36):
Yet in Blue mean long girls, lean in my mind

(01:56:05):
and no trigle.

Speaker 5 (01:56:07):
And my way, that's what I say. I'm cumpling all
around in.

Speaker 6 (01:56:16):
My wrangle, sweati.

Speaker 7 (01:56:21):
Sweat, sweat, you love me, love my heartach game blue,

(01:56:53):
Oh man, you're feeling hair still No I b d dog.

Speaker 4 (01:57:03):
Tag Chi.

Speaker 7 (01:57:06):
It's just a fine.

Speaker 12 (01:57:10):
Telling him to keep the testing to live gone, sweet sweet, you.

Speaker 7 (01:57:20):
Love me, love my heartache.

Speaker 2 (01:57:22):
And blue.

Speaker 8 (01:58:04):
Past the setting a set passion