May 29, 2025 • 36 mins
Discover how modern marketing tactics are changing the game in recruitment. If you're looking to attract top talent, you won't want to miss this video! Learn how modern marketing tactics are changing the game for recruitment. From social media to content marketing, find out how companies are attracting top talent in this digital age.
David Revell, a trailblazer in modern recruitment marketing. With over a decade of experience in the recruitment industry, David transitioned from the traditional "churn and burn" corporate style to innovating his own way forward .After stepping away from the high-pressure environment of a large agency, he ventured into e-commerce, where he honed essential skills in video marketing, branding, and content creation. However, his journey took a pivotal turn during the pandemic, which saw him embrace recruitment anew with a fresh perspective.
David now leverages sophisticated marketing techniques to transform job roles into irresistible offers, breaking away from outdated recruitment practices. His approach has drastically improved conversion rates, bolstering both the quality and quantity of job applicants. Join us as we delve deeper into how David believes companies should treat hiring as strategically as customer acquisition, unlocking one of the highest ROI opportunities available today.
Discover how better job ads not only attract better candidates but ultimately lead to transformative business results. Stay tuned as David shares his insights and success stories, illuminating gaps in traditional hiring practices and shedding light on the power of words in the recruitment game.
CONTACT DETAILS
Website: https://chartarecruitment.com/
Emaill: david@chartarecruitment.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-revell-8b0929b6/
Remember to SUBSCRIBE so you don't miss "Information That You Can Use." Share Just Minding My Business with your family, friends, and colleagues. Engage with us by leaving a review or comment. https://g.page/r/CVKSq-IsFaY9EBM/review Your support keeps this podcast going and growing.
Visit Just Minding My Business Media™ LLC at https://jmmbmediallc.com/ to learn how we can help you get more visibility on your products and services.
David Revell, a trailblazer in modern recruitment marketing. With over a decade of experience in the recruitment industry, David transitioned from the traditional "churn and burn" corporate style to innovating his own way forward .After stepping away from the high-pressure environment of a large agency, he ventured into e-commerce, where he honed essential skills in video marketing, branding, and content creation. However, his journey took a pivotal turn during the pandemic, which saw him embrace recruitment anew with a fresh perspective.
David now leverages sophisticated marketing techniques to transform job roles into irresistible offers, breaking away from outdated recruitment practices. His approach has drastically improved conversion rates, bolstering both the quality and quantity of job applicants. Join us as we delve deeper into how David believes companies should treat hiring as strategically as customer acquisition, unlocking one of the highest ROI opportunities available today.
Discover how better job ads not only attract better candidates but ultimately lead to transformative business results. Stay tuned as David shares his insights and success stories, illuminating gaps in traditional hiring practices and shedding light on the power of words in the recruitment game.
CONTACT DETAILS
Website: https://chartarecruitment.com/
Emaill: david@chartarecruitment.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-revell-8b0929b6/
Remember to SUBSCRIBE so you don't miss "Information That You Can Use." Share Just Minding My Business with your family, friends, and colleagues. Engage with us by leaving a review or comment. https://g.page/r/CVKSq-IsFaY9EBM/review Your support keeps this podcast going and growing.
Visit Just Minding My Business Media™ LLC at https://jmmbmediallc.com/ to learn how we can help you get more visibility on your products and services.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Just Minded My Business Media LLC, where you
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(00:22):
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(00:46):
So grab a finer paper and get ready for information
that you can use.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
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Speaker 3 (01:19):
Welcome to Just Minding My Business Media.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I am so happy that you're here today and I
am excited to bring David Rebel and David is a
trailblazer in modern recruitment marketing. With over a decade of
experience in the recruitment industry, David transitioned from the traditional
churn and burn corporate style to innovating his own way forward. Wow,
(01:48):
welcome some David to the show. Appreciate having you. And
I can't wait to jump in because I already know
about that churn and burn.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
Don't you know you're telling me it's likely to be here.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, so, let me ask you, how did you even
get to where you are right now? What was the
events that happened?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Sure, well, every recruiter in the world will tell you
the same thing. We fell into this We never dreamed
of doing this job. We all fall into this thing
by accident. That's how I started. At the beginning, worked
for a big recruitment firm, one of the most well
known ones in the world, where they teach you to
churn and burn. And in churn and burn in recruitment
(02:35):
means working for thirty, forty, maybe fifty clients at one
time and essentially just throwing resumes at them until enough
of them stick. And in the US it's not so bad,
but in the UK recruitment's not got a great reputation
because of that. You often cut corners, you don't treat
(02:56):
We're dealing with people all the time, and you treat
them in a chance actional manner. I think you'd agree
treating people in a transactional way isn't the best way forward.
You can't learn about both parties, so you just got
to pray that it's going to stick, basically, and the
companies end up feeling like piggybanks, the candidates end up
(03:17):
feeling like cattle. And all you have to do is
go on LinkedIn enough to see enough complaints about recruiters
on there. It's very rife, and it's because of the
way that the majority of the industry is taught. You know,
it's churn and burn. It's a numbers game. And just
to give you a couple of numbers on that. You know,
as a business one of the biggest ones in the world,
(03:38):
we only used to fill twenty five percent of the
roles that we were given, so we would fail seventy
five percent of the time with clients. And for me,
I did not like that. I struggled with that. I
like dealing with people on a personal level. And eventually
I quit. I quit it because I didn't feel it
(03:59):
was right for me. I stepped away and started a
couple of e commerce businesses. Learned all about marketing, video content,
you know, writing a good hook, a good call to action,
all these things that I'd never been taught as a recruiter.
Even though your job is very heavily about marketing candidates
to jobs and jobs to candidates, it's a big marketing challenge,
(04:22):
we never got taught any of that. So I did
that for a couple of years. Covid kicked in my businesses.
Unfortunately didn't do very well. So I decided to go
back into recruitment. That this time learn put these two
things together of recruitment doing it my way, and I
started my own recruitment company. And the philosophy that we
took was was only going to work with one client
(04:44):
at a time. That meant we could speak to three
or four hundred people per role, spend seventy hundred hours
on each role, and we fill ninety nine percent of
the roles that we are given. The only time we
don't fill them is because a role has maybe been
pulled or the company decided to restructure or something like that.
So the companies are always happy. I'm always happy because
(05:07):
I'm winning all the time, and the candidates are always
over the moon because I get to spend a good
couple of hours with them rather than before it was
spending ten minutes with them. You can't learn about someone
in ten minutes. It was impossible. So over the last
couple of years, I've really been delving into helping companies
market their jobs better because by the time they come
(05:29):
to me, and you've probably heard this before, they come
to me when they've already tried to recruit for quite
some time and it's not worked out. If you look
online these days, if a company puts out a job posting,
only about ten percent of the time does that posting
actually end up hiring somebody. And that rate is going
(05:51):
down every year. Job postings are getting less and less
effective and companies are having to use recruiters like me.
Our industry is booming in recruitment even in a recession
because companies cannot attract people, and the problem is is
that they do not know how to connect with their
audience of candidates, their talent pool to stand out amongst
(06:15):
the noise. I did a little bit of research before
our call today, and I thought I've got the area
wrong because you're not based there at the moment. But
I had a look at Baltimore. Okay, Baltimore forty kilometer
radius of Baltimore. How many I've just looked at sales
just for this conversation. How many sales jobs do you
think we're posted in Baltimore in the last thirty days?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Probably are lot.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
Twenty five thousand, five thousand, and that won't even be
all of them. So the problem that companies have is
that they cannot stand out from the noise at all.
They cannot do it, and as a result, they often
and you might hear this from business leaders, have to
settle for who they maybe thought weren't as good as
(07:01):
they were, but they had to hire somebody or it
takes them months, if not sometimes a year or so
to sometimes hire for certain roles, and the you know,
the cost to a business is absolutely massive if you
have to do that. And if they can't hire it,
who do they come to. They call not the ghostbusters,
they call me. They call me to fix it for them.
(07:24):
And we're not cheap. Any recruiter, as you know, is
very expensive. So I'm hoping to show your audience a
couple of things today. One how to get three to
five more that three to five times more highly qualified
people to apply to their job postings and reduce their
recruitment spend by over fifty percent just by doing one
small thing, which is changing the way that they write
(07:47):
the words on their job adverts.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah, yes, because more more times than that, you know,
I look at the job postings and it's a laundry list.
Speaker 6 (08:00):
Some note we call it, and I'm thinking of myself,
good lord, And then you go down to the salary
and it.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Doesn't match, and I'm like, next, right right, yes, indeed.
So what's the name in your company, David?
Speaker 5 (08:25):
My company is called Charter Recruitment Charter is It means
paper in Latin because the industry that we started recruiting
in was the paper industry. It's not what we do anymore,
but that's where we started. And my late mother named
the businesses. She always named the businesses that our family started,
so she gave it that name.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Okay, okay, alrighty, now, so let's talk about what's going
you know, how you can make things better?
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Okay. So I've got a few tips for people here,
and I honestly believe this is probably one of the
biggest rois business owner can have getting better talent for
a much lower cost to the business. If I asked
you a simple obvious question, what is a company's most
important asset?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
They are people?
Speaker 5 (09:13):
The people? Right, how much time of the business owners
you've ever worked with, or any business owner I've ever
worked with, how much time do they ever put into
attracting those people? In terms of thought? How much time
do they think about attracting the right people? Do you
think over the years?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I think they just go by duties. They're not looking
at people. They're looking more at what they want the
person to do.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Yep, and what they want what the company wants right, Yes,
and so people are the company's most important asset. We
know that companies. What I try to tell companies is
think about your candidate attraction process the same as you
think of your customer acquisition process. Because we're selling not
a widget, not a a box. We're selling a change
(10:01):
in someone's life. One of the most important things a
person will do, a change of their job. That is
a huge thing to sell. It's much harder to sell
than most products. But that process of selling to that
person is exactly the same as selling a product. It's
no different. It's the psychology is exactly the same. You're
trying to hack into the amigdala, the emotional part of
(10:24):
the brain, and the prefrontal cortex, the logical part of
the brain. And that's what we're trying to do with
our marketing or sales or anything else. It's the same
when it comes to attracting people. All right. So all
we're doing and you touched upon it already, ninety nine
point nine percent of companies when they put a job
posting up, what do they talk about the company? Guess what?
(10:45):
Nobody cares about the company? What do people care about themselves? Right?
So imagine if I went to your to a sales
team and said, when your next cold call, don't talk
about the customer, only talk about yourself. How do you
think that cold call is going to go? Not very well?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Right?
Speaker 5 (11:05):
If all your marketing was based on you rather than
your customer, how well would it do? Not good? Right?
So we know this abc basic stuff. We're just applying
it to Then the opportunities that you're putting out there
for people to work for your business that's all we're doing.
So there's a couple of things that we can do.
(11:25):
First of all, the first problem is, and you mentioned
to a lot of HR people. I speak to a
lot of HR people. The big reason why this happens
is because business owners outsource this attraction process to people
who they think know what they're doing, which is HR
people and recruiters like me. Now, unfortunately, HR people they're
(11:50):
not trained marketeers and they're not trained salespeople. They are
good at HR, but they're not good at writing copy
to attract people to buy anything from you. Imagine if
you've got your HR team to do all of your marketing.
I'm pretty sure the conversions would suffer a little bit,
but we trust them to attract your most important asset.
(12:13):
Something's wrong here. Now. It's not any you know, not
throwing shade at HR people. They just simply aren't taught that.
They approach HR like an admin task getting people to attract.
If you're selling a company, that's a marketing skill or
a sales skill, they simply aren't trained in it. So
a lot of HR people I speak to and I
feel very sorry for them. They get a lot of
(12:37):
they get a lot of grief from their business owners
or managers that they're not bringing in quality candidates. Well,
they don't have the skill set to sell the job
to the candidate poor. That's why they're experiencing that problem.
So the first thing is to notice that outsourcing it
to people who don't know what they're doing is not
the right way to go. Have a little bit of
(12:57):
a look at what they're putting out there in the
world world, have a look what they're writing, and you'll
see why you're not getting the candidates that you're looking for.
The second thing I like to say to people is
what we're creating is job adverts, not job descriptions. And
what you said before there is exactly right. A job
description is just a list of duties, Okay, a list
(13:21):
of duties and twenty things about what you must have
to apply Okay? Is that attractive?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Not?
Speaker 5 (13:32):
And if you've got twenty five other things, twenty five
thousand other ones to read today, are you going to
are you going to care about that? No, you're not
going to care at all. So what I like to
say is is think of it in this way, like
kind of like a serial box. Okay, the job advert
needs to be like the front of a cereal box
a a in a store. Like it's the attractive, colorful
(13:54):
thing at the front that hooks somebody in to want
to buy it. The job description is like the nutritional
information on the back of the cereal box. Okay, that's
the more information if they want to find out more. Now,
imagine if all the serial companies turned all their boxes
around in the stores. How would it hurt their sales? Okay,
(14:15):
probably quite a lot. Ye, it's going to help them
quite a bit. So we're talking about job adverts here.
And when we're talking about adverts, what does that mean?
To advertise, it means we're trying to sell something. Okay,
to sell something, it has to be about them, not
about you. That's the key to this entire process, making
(14:38):
it about them. So that's listing as many reasons why
they should quit their current job and come and join you.
And you're just listing as many of these benefits as possible.
This is where people tend to struggle on the benefits
side of things because they think of benefits, they just
think salary, bonus, healthcare, those things. Those are hard benefits, yes,
(15:03):
but as you know, there's much bigger other benefits to somebody. So,
for example, the ability to create something from scratch is
a huge benefit for some people. People love creating things.
I want to create something. I want to leave my
stamp on this, my legacy on this project. Or it
(15:24):
could be progression. I want to progress to X or
Y level in X or y amount of years. Or
it could be development. I want to learn this particular
skill because then that's going to help me later on
down the road. Maybe it's the culture of the business.
Maybe being in a really energetic, vibrant, crazy place is
exactly where you want to work. Maybe it's not so.
(15:46):
There's so many soft benefits that are in there. Really,
anything about a job is a benefit if you frame
it as a benefit. So the key to it is
is let one benefit after the next, Okay, and then
at the end a little bit about the company a
little bit. So I like to say to people, make
(16:06):
it ninety percent about them and ten percent about you.
Once they've hit that apply button, then you can tell
them all about you and what you really want an X,
Y and Z and all that sort of stuff. Does
that mean you don't put what you want from that
person in there? No, you still put the requirements to apply,
but you just don't list two hundred of them. You
(16:28):
just you only need any job in the world have
been recruiting for ten years only has three or five
non negotiables. The rest is just rubbish, quite frankly, right,
If you need to have good communication skills or has
experienced with MS office, come on, you're just everyone uses
that by now, like, come on, it's just silly. So
(16:51):
all we're doing is listening as many benefits as possible,
giving the requirements to apply three to five max, a
little bit about the company, and then a call to
action to call the company. It's a very simple hook,
story offer. That's all we're doing at the moment. There's
no hook, there's no story, and there's down write, no
(17:12):
offer on any of those things. It's just it's just
like we say, a professional ransom note. So there's some
of the key things that you can look for. Another
key thing is the language that you're using. Most job
adverts are very demanding in their language. You must do this,
you must do that. Now. If I turn around to
(17:34):
you I do in real life and said you must
do this, it's going to turn you off. Right, You
don't speak to people like that. It's very demanded.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I'm like dictator this year.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Dictay to me. Yeah, like you're of me, right, I'm
above you if I speak to you like that. Right.
We don't like that. Well, everyone puts that in the adverts.
So what you want to do is make it more
supportive in the language. You know, you'll be happy to
do this. You all enjoy doing this. You'll be the
type of person who has this, that or the other
(18:03):
in just a more of a supportive way. One of
the quick tips for anyone listening would be takeout every
time you say the word I, we, us, or our
and replace them with you, your as many of those
as possible, because that's going to engage the reader. Science
tells us that the thing that people love reading the
(18:24):
most is their own name or hearing is their own name.
The second thing is the word you or your. That's
how you keep people engaged in writing. If all I'm
saying is I'm so great, I'm great, I'm brilliant. Here's
why I'm great, You're going to switch off.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Oh yeah, absolutely, because greatness is in the hours of
the beholder.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Companies debt both great. Once you get in they're now.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
So great totally, and it's and no one at the
beginning cares about what year you were established, Okay, no
one cares about what round of funding you've just had.
No one cares about those things. They care about them. Later,
when you've got them to apply, then they'll care about
(19:13):
those things. But the beginning that they want to have
to apply to your business because they want to change
their life in some way, so you have to show
them how their life is going to change working for
your company. Then you can talk about yourself as much
as you want, you.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Know, yes, indeed, wow, that's that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And it's simple things.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Simple that people overlook, you know, because they're so involved
with me, me, me, me me, instead of looking at
the other person as a human, as a person, as
an asset. Yep, all of that, and that's not They
(19:56):
make you feel like you're gonna you lucky.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
We allow you to, don't you know who we are?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Right?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
You see that name above the board come on right.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Exactly, And people don't really care about that. And it
goes back to the old saying. People want to know
that you care first.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Mm hmm, yep. They want to know what's what do
they call it with them. What's in it for them? Right?
That's what they want to know exactly's what they wan't know.
And when you're coming up against twenty five thousand other
companies doing the exact same thing as you are, that's
why the rates of these application job placements through adverts plummeting.
Because the saturation is going up, the quality of the
(20:42):
ads are going down. People aren't reading them. I sent
you an example of an advert that a little while ago.
That person who we placed in that role, he turned
around to me when I first spoke with him and
he said, is this advert for this company? I was like, yeah, yeah,
he goes, I read this advert six months ago. I
(21:04):
was that interesting. I was like, why didn't you apply
to it? That's a back when they wrote it is
it sounded boring as hell? And all we'd done the
roles the same. We just changed the way that we
put the words on the paper. That's all it was.
And then they managed to get the biggest player in
(21:25):
their industry, a company that had no right getting the
biggest player in their industry. They managed to get him
because they did something which I call the bat signal.
You put the bat signal in the sky. Right if
your advert is all about, for example, that one there
was all about creating a team from scratch. You get
to lead this company and create this function from scratch,
(21:48):
and you'll be managing director of this business within the
next five years. The bat signal that that advert was
putting out was somebody who wants to build something from
scratch and become a managing director in five years? Is right.
That guy actually took a pay cut to join that
role because he felt stuck in his current role. He
couldn't build anything. He was in a very corporate company,
(22:11):
couldn't create. He was creatively stunted. They managed to get
him because he wants to create and build something. It
put the bat signal in the sky, and that's the
person who applied to it. The same thing will happen
if you're talking about progression or development or any of
those things. If you're talking about remote working, for example,
if remote working is a huge benefit for some people,
(22:33):
for other people, it's not. If you put that bat
signal in the sky. We believe in remote remote working
you get to spend more time with your family and
your loved ones and all these things. Guess who's going to.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Apply the people there there.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Exactly exactly same thing happens if it's five days in
the office, right, because some people really value being in
the office five days. Now, if you make that clear,
guess who's not going to apply to that people who
want to be remote. So you just got to make
it and it helps it. Not only does it attract
better people, but it also helps filter out the people
who may not be correct because you're being very honest
(23:08):
with what it is that you're looking for.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
So, if employers and applicants want to connect with you,
how did.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
They do so?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Yeah, So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn.
My my name is David Revel, my surname is R. E.
Vebl and my company's Charter recruitment. So Charter is h
A R T A recruitment. Best places connect with me there.
I'm happy to have a look at any job adverts.
If someone goes, hey, I was ain't working, just go look,
(23:40):
this is what you need to change. So send me
any job adverts over and I'll give you some some
free free feedback on it.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
So one of the things you mentioned early on is
working with one person at a time, spending some time
with the applicants, and that's huge thing because they don't
do that at all ever. Ever, And to me, that's
a very important thing because you get a field for
(24:11):
the person's values, what matters to them. Yeah, they get
to feel new. Yeah, and it's important, Yeah, very important.
So you want to elaborate a little bit on how
your company does it differently.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
You know, when I said to you before about the
churn and burn, the churn and burn when I spoke
to a client would be I've got half an hour
to speak with a client and I've got ten minutes
to speak to a candidate. How on earth am I
supposed to feel where the fit's going to be in
such a short amount of time. You're basically just leaving
(24:49):
up to luck. Now, humans are complicated, right, You're never
going to know exactly how someone is, and people can
lie to you, obviously. But we spend two hours with
each client before we do anything, and we spend two
hours with any candidate before we put them forward. After
that two hour period, we go through everything their work history,
(25:11):
their personal life, their ambitions, their fears, what their partner thinks,
because the partner is sometimes the thing that gets in
the way but you don't find that out until the
very end. You want to find that out at the beginning.
So one of my best mentors told me that all
we're doing is maximizing opportunity and minimizing risk, and the
(25:33):
only way you can do that is by spending sufficient
time with both parties. Can you get it right every time? No,
we're dealing with people. But can you get it right
most of the time. Absolutely, But you just got to
invest the time into both parties. And that means companies
also investing it with their recruiters as well. I have
a lot of clients who initially I reach out to
(25:53):
them and they say, hey, I've only got ten minutes
to speak to you. I was like, my response is, well,
could you sell my company in ten minutes? Because I
sure as hell can't sell your us. You know they can't.
You know, you need to give me more time. Right
when it's done right, you know you can sell your
own company in ten minutes. You need more time to
do that. So it's it's not just the recruiters, it's
(26:13):
the companies also like to deal with it in a
transactional way and then wonder why they don't get the
quality of people, or it's taking too long, or we're
spending too much on the process.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yes, yes, indeed, and I like that.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
I like talking to the people hmm, you know, and
getting a feel for where they are, what matters to them.
And for me, one of the things I've had people
want to negotiate business over email.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
No no, no, no, no, that doesn't work for me. No,
it doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
And I tell them that, Yeah, they want to keep
pushing the email. So it's like, okay, I reready told
you how a role want to push this email? Huh
so now you get.
Speaker 5 (27:02):
Nothing, absolutely, especially when it comes to numbers or figures
or in my world, salaries or decisions. Yes, yeah, yeah,
it's weird people. Yeah, and we we use it as
a crutch, don't we, because we're afraid of the conversation.
So uh, it's but it's it's what we we what
(27:25):
we talk about here with the with the adverts and
with with dealing with people. To me, it seems like obvious, simple,
basic logic. But for some reason, again, one of my
mentors told me that recruitment is a completely irrational, completely
irrational process run by completely irrational people. And that's exactly
(27:45):
how it is.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
And that's a lot of things, you know, customer service,
they talk to.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
These bats talking about Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Gonna talk to a real person, or they solve the
problems through emails. Nope, I want to talk to you
right now. I got a problem. I'm upset. We need
to talk.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
And they're forcing these things on people. Yeah, you know,
and no boy license, no body.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
No.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
Well, but can't empathize with you, can it. It can't
understand truly what you're going through.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
So it's and then as soon as you put something
in they don't get, then they started the process all over.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Its horrible. It's horrible.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Yeah, I mean we're finding it in our in the
recruitment industry. There's obviously a big push for AI, like
in everything else, and I do believe in it a
hell of a lot. But when it comes to important,
complex problems that only humans can really deal with, it's
not to say that a machine can't do it, it's
that people don't want to do it with the machine,
(29:00):
right exactly, it's a machine. In my world where your
product is essentially a person. I don't like to put
it in that way, but my product essentially is a
human being with their own emotions, problems, you know, everything else,
and then your your customer is a person and you're
trying to put them together. Well, it's a recipe from
(29:23):
you know, chaos if a machine is doing nothing, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yes, indeed.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
And then sometimes you know with the seniors they have
all the time with that automation stuff they have.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I can I remember vividly this day.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
You know, my aunt was trying to pay her cable
bill and all they had was this automated stuff, and
they asked for her address.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
But she wants to say my address is.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
It doesn't want to hear my address is. It just
wants you to say your address. And I could not
get that through her head. So every time we had
the call back, I was telling, don't say my address is,
just say your addressed, just my address is.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
So it was almost trying to pay the bill.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
Absolute chaos, it is.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
And then when those systems break, Yeah, I did not understand.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I did not understand.
Speaker 5 (30:33):
Yeah, it's funny because just a very quick story. I
used to work in a bank before I was in recruitment.
I worked for a big bank called Barclay's Bank. I
think it's in America. Barklays Bank. Yeah, I used to
work in the branch, okay, a very busy one. People
come in all day. And it wasn't an AI system
(30:53):
we had there. We had a system which was like
a person on a screen and it had been programmed
with like every single question that anyone could answer, and
it was absolutely perfect, Like, it was really good what
it did. It was fun. This was like twelve years ago,
so it was really ahead of its time. It was great.
It was better than me at what I did, and
(31:14):
it was quicker, and we trialed it and customers universally
hated it. They hated it and they always asked to
speak with me no matter what, even though I was
way dumber and slower than the machine. But at the
same time that we were doing that, we were also
moving away from the tellers counting cash were being replaced
(31:38):
by the automated tellers. Okay, I used to do that
job as a teller. I was really bad at it
and really really bad. I lost a lot of money
for people counting incorrectly. What we found with that was
that customers really liked that. So we found from that
process is that transactional things people are quite happy dealing
(32:00):
with the machines, but complex problems. They didn't want to
use the machine for that. They needed a human to
understand on an emotional level. And we're talking about people's
money here, so it's obviously quite a it's an emotive
thing for people. They wanted to deal with a person
on that doesn't matter how good the machine was. They
wanted to deal with the person.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, And that's just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
We're humans that that emotional piece is a part of.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
All of us, absolutely, and.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Were just like and fall for the you know, just
any old thing when it comes to something that's making
us upset.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
We need like, we need a live.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Human being that can can can can actually put themselves
in your shoe, in our shoes, understand.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
What you're going through.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
We're here to help you, and we're going to do
everything in our power to get this issue resolved.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
For sure. And you have to have something opposite, some
one opposite you that you respect. The problem with the
AI or anything else is. And the way I talk
to my chat GPT is horrible. I'm an abuser to
my chat GPT because it's no matter what happens, I
can never hurt its feelings. I've got no respect for
it because it's not real. So on a human level,
(33:21):
even if someone's making mistake or maybe they're doing a
bad job in customer service or whatever. You know, there's
certain things you can't do or say. They're a human
being and you have to respect them on a human level. Yes,
no machine, no matter how good it is, you're ever
going to have that respect for them. You're still gonna
you know, give them the finger or whatever. You know.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Well, David, this has been amazing. We've covered a lot
of ground here we have.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
So again, how do people How do employers and applicants
connect with you?
Speaker 5 (33:58):
Yeah, like I said, Linin's the best place for me,
David ravel Chartter recruitment. Send your bad adverts in, we'll
get them fixed. We'll show you what you need to do.
And obviously we do recruitment as well. But as you
can tell, I'm based in the UK, so I'm not
sure where most of your audience is based. But most
of the recruitment we do is obviously in the UK.
(34:19):
But the adverts work no matter where you're from. If
you're selling to a human being and you want a
person to work for you, not an AI, you need
to put an advert up and you know we can
help you get those better.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
So absolutely, well, David, we are definitely going to do
this again. You're a fun guy to talk to and
you know you're in the right space because people need
the type of emotions and concern that you relay, especially
you know they're talking about changing their lives.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
To another position.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
They don't want to jump out the frome pain into
the failure. You know, they want somebody that makes them
understand what they may be getting into, also helping the
employer be more.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You know, mindful that we're dealing with humans here, We're not.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
How would you no, that thing on the other side
that's reading your words has got ambitions, goals, fears, beliefs.
If you write it in with no emotion or no
reason to join your business, guess what people aren't going
to apply to it. It's not rocket science. Like if
(35:40):
you applied that same thinking to you how you do
with your customers, you'd never sell one dollar of any product.
So you're just applying the same principles to your customers
you do with people who want to join your business.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
That's all absolutely wow. Thank you so much, David.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Thank you and sharing and dropping so much information on
us today. It's like you recovered a mile for sure.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Well, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity.
You're a wonderful host, and I've listened to quite a
few of your podcasts and always love the conversations that
you have, So I appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Thank you, thank you, and audience.
Speaker 5 (36:23):
Thank you, yeah, thank you audience.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Thank you to our guests, and you our value audience.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
Let's stop doing about it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
We truly appreciate you. Many blessings to you and yours.
Welcome to Just Minded My Business Media LLC, where you
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(00:46):
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Speaker 2 (00:56):
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Speaker 3 (01:19):
Welcome to Just Minding My Business Media.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I am so happy that you're here today and I
am excited to bring David Rebel and David is a
trailblazer in modern recruitment marketing. With over a decade of
experience in the recruitment industry, David transitioned from the traditional
churn and burn corporate style to innovating his own way forward. Wow,
(01:48):
welcome some David to the show. Appreciate having you. And
I can't wait to jump in because I already know
about that churn and burn.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
Don't you know you're telling me it's likely to be here.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, so, let me ask you, how did you even
get to where you are right now? What was the
events that happened?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Sure, well, every recruiter in the world will tell you
the same thing. We fell into this We never dreamed
of doing this job. We all fall into this thing
by accident. That's how I started. At the beginning, worked
for a big recruitment firm, one of the most well
known ones in the world, where they teach you to
churn and burn. And in churn and burn in recruitment
(02:35):
means working for thirty, forty, maybe fifty clients at one
time and essentially just throwing resumes at them until enough
of them stick. And in the US it's not so bad,
but in the UK recruitment's not got a great reputation
because of that. You often cut corners, you don't treat
(02:56):
We're dealing with people all the time, and you treat
them in a chance actional manner. I think you'd agree
treating people in a transactional way isn't the best way forward.
You can't learn about both parties, so you just got
to pray that it's going to stick, basically, and the
companies end up feeling like piggybanks, the candidates end up
(03:17):
feeling like cattle. And all you have to do is
go on LinkedIn enough to see enough complaints about recruiters
on there. It's very rife, and it's because of the
way that the majority of the industry is taught. You know,
it's churn and burn. It's a numbers game. And just
to give you a couple of numbers on that. You know,
as a business one of the biggest ones in the world,
(03:38):
we only used to fill twenty five percent of the
roles that we were given, so we would fail seventy
five percent of the time with clients. And for me,
I did not like that. I struggled with that. I
like dealing with people on a personal level. And eventually
I quit. I quit it because I didn't feel it
(03:59):
was right for me. I stepped away and started a
couple of e commerce businesses. Learned all about marketing, video content,
you know, writing a good hook, a good call to action,
all these things that I'd never been taught as a recruiter.
Even though your job is very heavily about marketing candidates
to jobs and jobs to candidates, it's a big marketing challenge,
(04:22):
we never got taught any of that. So I did
that for a couple of years. Covid kicked in my businesses.
Unfortunately didn't do very well. So I decided to go
back into recruitment. That this time learn put these two
things together of recruitment doing it my way, and I
started my own recruitment company. And the philosophy that we
took was was only going to work with one client
(04:44):
at a time. That meant we could speak to three
or four hundred people per role, spend seventy hundred hours
on each role, and we fill ninety nine percent of
the roles that we are given. The only time we
don't fill them is because a role has maybe been
pulled or the company decided to restructure or something like that.
So the companies are always happy. I'm always happy because
(05:07):
I'm winning all the time, and the candidates are always
over the moon because I get to spend a good
couple of hours with them rather than before it was
spending ten minutes with them. You can't learn about someone
in ten minutes. It was impossible. So over the last
couple of years, I've really been delving into helping companies
market their jobs better because by the time they come
(05:29):
to me, and you've probably heard this before, they come
to me when they've already tried to recruit for quite
some time and it's not worked out. If you look
online these days, if a company puts out a job posting,
only about ten percent of the time does that posting
actually end up hiring somebody. And that rate is going
(05:51):
down every year. Job postings are getting less and less
effective and companies are having to use recruiters like me.
Our industry is booming in recruitment even in a recession
because companies cannot attract people, and the problem is is
that they do not know how to connect with their
audience of candidates, their talent pool to stand out amongst
(06:15):
the noise. I did a little bit of research before
our call today, and I thought I've got the area
wrong because you're not based there at the moment. But
I had a look at Baltimore. Okay, Baltimore forty kilometer
radius of Baltimore. How many I've just looked at sales
just for this conversation. How many sales jobs do you
think we're posted in Baltimore in the last thirty days?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Probably are lot.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
Twenty five thousand, five thousand, and that won't even be
all of them. So the problem that companies have is
that they cannot stand out from the noise at all.
They cannot do it, and as a result, they often
and you might hear this from business leaders, have to
settle for who they maybe thought weren't as good as
(07:01):
they were, but they had to hire somebody or it
takes them months, if not sometimes a year or so
to sometimes hire for certain roles, and the you know,
the cost to a business is absolutely massive if you
have to do that. And if they can't hire it,
who do they come to. They call not the ghostbusters,
they call me. They call me to fix it for them.
(07:24):
And we're not cheap. Any recruiter, as you know, is
very expensive. So I'm hoping to show your audience a
couple of things today. One how to get three to
five more that three to five times more highly qualified
people to apply to their job postings and reduce their
recruitment spend by over fifty percent just by doing one
small thing, which is changing the way that they write
(07:47):
the words on their job adverts.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah, yes, because more more times than that, you know,
I look at the job postings and it's a laundry list.
Speaker 6 (08:00):
Some note we call it, and I'm thinking of myself,
good lord, And then you go down to the salary
and it.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Doesn't match, and I'm like, next, right right, yes, indeed.
So what's the name in your company, David?
Speaker 5 (08:25):
My company is called Charter Recruitment Charter is It means
paper in Latin because the industry that we started recruiting
in was the paper industry. It's not what we do anymore,
but that's where we started. And my late mother named
the businesses. She always named the businesses that our family started,
so she gave it that name.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Okay, okay, alrighty, now, so let's talk about what's going
you know, how you can make things better?
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Okay. So I've got a few tips for people here,
and I honestly believe this is probably one of the
biggest rois business owner can have getting better talent for
a much lower cost to the business. If I asked
you a simple obvious question, what is a company's most
important asset?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
They are people?
Speaker 5 (09:13):
The people? Right, how much time of the business owners
you've ever worked with, or any business owner I've ever
worked with, how much time do they ever put into
attracting those people? In terms of thought? How much time
do they think about attracting the right people? Do you
think over the years?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I think they just go by duties. They're not looking
at people. They're looking more at what they want the
person to do.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Yep, and what they want what the company wants right, Yes,
and so people are the company's most important asset. We
know that companies. What I try to tell companies is
think about your candidate attraction process the same as you
think of your customer acquisition process. Because we're selling not
a widget, not a a box. We're selling a change
(10:01):
in someone's life. One of the most important things a
person will do, a change of their job. That is
a huge thing to sell. It's much harder to sell
than most products. But that process of selling to that
person is exactly the same as selling a product. It's
no different. It's the psychology is exactly the same. You're
trying to hack into the amigdala, the emotional part of
(10:24):
the brain, and the prefrontal cortex, the logical part of
the brain. And that's what we're trying to do with
our marketing or sales or anything else. It's the same
when it comes to attracting people. All right. So all
we're doing and you touched upon it already, ninety nine
point nine percent of companies when they put a job
posting up, what do they talk about the company? Guess what?
(10:45):
Nobody cares about the company? What do people care about themselves? Right?
So imagine if I went to your to a sales
team and said, when your next cold call, don't talk
about the customer, only talk about yourself. How do you
think that cold call is going to go? Not very well?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Right?
Speaker 5 (11:05):
If all your marketing was based on you rather than
your customer, how well would it do? Not good? Right?
So we know this abc basic stuff. We're just applying
it to Then the opportunities that you're putting out there
for people to work for your business that's all we're doing.
So there's a couple of things that we can do.
(11:25):
First of all, the first problem is, and you mentioned
to a lot of HR people. I speak to a
lot of HR people. The big reason why this happens
is because business owners outsource this attraction process to people
who they think know what they're doing, which is HR
people and recruiters like me. Now, unfortunately, HR people they're
(11:50):
not trained marketeers and they're not trained salespeople. They are
good at HR, but they're not good at writing copy
to attract people to buy anything from you. Imagine if
you've got your HR team to do all of your marketing.
I'm pretty sure the conversions would suffer a little bit,
but we trust them to attract your most important asset.
(12:13):
Something's wrong here. Now. It's not any you know, not
throwing shade at HR people. They just simply aren't taught that.
They approach HR like an admin task getting people to attract.
If you're selling a company, that's a marketing skill or
a sales skill, they simply aren't trained in it. So
a lot of HR people I speak to and I
feel very sorry for them. They get a lot of
(12:37):
they get a lot of grief from their business owners
or managers that they're not bringing in quality candidates. Well,
they don't have the skill set to sell the job
to the candidate poor. That's why they're experiencing that problem.
So the first thing is to notice that outsourcing it
to people who don't know what they're doing is not
the right way to go. Have a little bit of
(12:57):
a look at what they're putting out there in the
world world, have a look what they're writing, and you'll
see why you're not getting the candidates that you're looking for.
The second thing I like to say to people is
what we're creating is job adverts, not job descriptions. And
what you said before there is exactly right. A job
description is just a list of duties, Okay, a list
(13:21):
of duties and twenty things about what you must have
to apply Okay? Is that attractive?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Not?
Speaker 5 (13:32):
And if you've got twenty five other things, twenty five
thousand other ones to read today, are you going to
are you going to care about that? No, you're not
going to care at all. So what I like to
say is is think of it in this way, like
kind of like a serial box. Okay, the job advert
needs to be like the front of a cereal box
a a in a store. Like it's the attractive, colorful
(13:54):
thing at the front that hooks somebody in to want
to buy it. The job description is like the nutritional
information on the back of the cereal box. Okay, that's
the more information if they want to find out more. Now,
imagine if all the serial companies turned all their boxes
around in the stores. How would it hurt their sales? Okay,
(14:15):
probably quite a lot. Ye, it's going to help them
quite a bit. So we're talking about job adverts here.
And when we're talking about adverts, what does that mean?
To advertise, it means we're trying to sell something. Okay,
to sell something, it has to be about them, not
about you. That's the key to this entire process, making
(14:38):
it about them. So that's listing as many reasons why
they should quit their current job and come and join you.
And you're just listing as many of these benefits as possible.
This is where people tend to struggle on the benefits
side of things because they think of benefits, they just
think salary, bonus, healthcare, those things. Those are hard benefits, yes,
(15:03):
but as you know, there's much bigger other benefits to somebody. So,
for example, the ability to create something from scratch is
a huge benefit for some people. People love creating things.
I want to create something. I want to leave my
stamp on this, my legacy on this project. Or it
(15:24):
could be progression. I want to progress to X or
Y level in X or y amount of years. Or
it could be development. I want to learn this particular
skill because then that's going to help me later on
down the road. Maybe it's the culture of the business.
Maybe being in a really energetic, vibrant, crazy place is
exactly where you want to work. Maybe it's not so.
(15:46):
There's so many soft benefits that are in there. Really,
anything about a job is a benefit if you frame
it as a benefit. So the key to it is
is let one benefit after the next, Okay, and then
at the end a little bit about the company a
little bit. So I like to say to people, make
(16:06):
it ninety percent about them and ten percent about you.
Once they've hit that apply button, then you can tell
them all about you and what you really want an X,
Y and Z and all that sort of stuff. Does
that mean you don't put what you want from that
person in there? No, you still put the requirements to apply,
but you just don't list two hundred of them. You
(16:28):
just you only need any job in the world have
been recruiting for ten years only has three or five
non negotiables. The rest is just rubbish, quite frankly, right,
If you need to have good communication skills or has
experienced with MS office, come on, you're just everyone uses
that by now, like, come on, it's just silly. So
(16:51):
all we're doing is listening as many benefits as possible,
giving the requirements to apply three to five max, a
little bit about the company, and then a call to
action to call the company. It's a very simple hook,
story offer. That's all we're doing at the moment. There's
no hook, there's no story, and there's down write, no
(17:12):
offer on any of those things. It's just it's just
like we say, a professional ransom note. So there's some
of the key things that you can look for. Another
key thing is the language that you're using. Most job
adverts are very demanding in their language. You must do this,
you must do that. Now. If I turn around to
(17:34):
you I do in real life and said you must
do this, it's going to turn you off. Right, You
don't speak to people like that. It's very demanded.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I'm like dictator this year.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Dictay to me. Yeah, like you're of me, right, I'm
above you if I speak to you like that. Right.
We don't like that. Well, everyone puts that in the adverts.
So what you want to do is make it more
supportive in the language. You know, you'll be happy to
do this. You all enjoy doing this. You'll be the
type of person who has this, that or the other
(18:03):
in just a more of a supportive way. One of
the quick tips for anyone listening would be takeout every
time you say the word I, we, us, or our
and replace them with you, your as many of those
as possible, because that's going to engage the reader. Science
tells us that the thing that people love reading the
(18:24):
most is their own name or hearing is their own name.
The second thing is the word you or your. That's
how you keep people engaged in writing. If all I'm
saying is I'm so great, I'm great, I'm brilliant. Here's
why I'm great, You're going to switch off.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Oh yeah, absolutely, because greatness is in the hours of
the beholder.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Companies debt both great. Once you get in they're now.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
So great totally, and it's and no one at the
beginning cares about what year you were established, Okay, no
one cares about what round of funding you've just had.
No one cares about those things. They care about them. Later,
when you've got them to apply, then they'll care about
(19:13):
those things. But the beginning that they want to have
to apply to your business because they want to change
their life in some way, so you have to show
them how their life is going to change working for
your company. Then you can talk about yourself as much
as you want, you.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Know, yes, indeed, wow, that's that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And it's simple things.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Simple that people overlook, you know, because they're so involved
with me, me, me, me me, instead of looking at
the other person as a human, as a person, as
an asset. Yep, all of that, and that's not They
(19:56):
make you feel like you're gonna you lucky.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
We allow you to, don't you know who we are?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Right?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
You see that name above the board come on right.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Exactly, And people don't really care about that. And it
goes back to the old saying. People want to know
that you care first.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Mm hmm, yep. They want to know what's what do
they call it with them. What's in it for them? Right?
That's what they want to know exactly's what they wan't know.
And when you're coming up against twenty five thousand other
companies doing the exact same thing as you are, that's
why the rates of these application job placements through adverts plummeting.
Because the saturation is going up, the quality of the
(20:42):
ads are going down. People aren't reading them. I sent
you an example of an advert that a little while ago.
That person who we placed in that role, he turned
around to me when I first spoke with him and
he said, is this advert for this company? I was like, yeah, yeah,
he goes, I read this advert six months ago. I
(21:04):
was that interesting. I was like, why didn't you apply
to it? That's a back when they wrote it is
it sounded boring as hell? And all we'd done the
roles the same. We just changed the way that we
put the words on the paper. That's all it was.
And then they managed to get the biggest player in
(21:25):
their industry, a company that had no right getting the
biggest player in their industry. They managed to get him
because they did something which I call the bat signal.
You put the bat signal in the sky. Right if
your advert is all about, for example, that one there
was all about creating a team from scratch. You get
to lead this company and create this function from scratch,
(21:48):
and you'll be managing director of this business within the
next five years. The bat signal that that advert was
putting out was somebody who wants to build something from
scratch and become a managing director in five years? Is right.
That guy actually took a pay cut to join that
role because he felt stuck in his current role. He
couldn't build anything. He was in a very corporate company,
(22:11):
couldn't create. He was creatively stunted. They managed to get
him because he wants to create and build something. It
put the bat signal in the sky, and that's the
person who applied to it. The same thing will happen
if you're talking about progression or development or any of
those things. If you're talking about remote working, for example,
if remote working is a huge benefit for some people,
(22:33):
for other people, it's not. If you put that bat
signal in the sky. We believe in remote remote working
you get to spend more time with your family and
your loved ones and all these things. Guess who's going to.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Apply the people there there.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Exactly exactly same thing happens if it's five days in
the office, right, because some people really value being in
the office five days. Now, if you make that clear,
guess who's not going to apply to that people who
want to be remote. So you just got to make
it and it helps it. Not only does it attract
better people, but it also helps filter out the people
who may not be correct because you're being very honest
(23:08):
with what it is that you're looking for.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
So, if employers and applicants want to connect with you,
how did.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
They do so?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Yeah, So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn.
My my name is David Revel, my surname is R. E.
Vebl and my company's Charter recruitment. So Charter is h
A R T A recruitment. Best places connect with me there.
I'm happy to have a look at any job adverts.
If someone goes, hey, I was ain't working, just go look,
(23:40):
this is what you need to change. So send me
any job adverts over and I'll give you some some
free free feedback on it.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
So one of the things you mentioned early on is
working with one person at a time, spending some time
with the applicants, and that's huge thing because they don't
do that at all ever. Ever, And to me, that's
a very important thing because you get a field for
(24:11):
the person's values, what matters to them. Yeah, they get
to feel new. Yeah, and it's important, Yeah, very important.
So you want to elaborate a little bit on how
your company does it differently.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
You know, when I said to you before about the
churn and burn, the churn and burn when I spoke
to a client would be I've got half an hour
to speak with a client and I've got ten minutes
to speak to a candidate. How on earth am I
supposed to feel where the fit's going to be in
such a short amount of time. You're basically just leaving
(24:49):
up to luck. Now, humans are complicated, right, You're never
going to know exactly how someone is, and people can
lie to you, obviously. But we spend two hours with
each client before we do anything, and we spend two
hours with any candidate before we put them forward. After
that two hour period, we go through everything their work history,
(25:11):
their personal life, their ambitions, their fears, what their partner thinks,
because the partner is sometimes the thing that gets in
the way but you don't find that out until the
very end. You want to find that out at the beginning.
So one of my best mentors told me that all
we're doing is maximizing opportunity and minimizing risk, and the
(25:33):
only way you can do that is by spending sufficient
time with both parties. Can you get it right every time? No,
we're dealing with people. But can you get it right
most of the time. Absolutely, But you just got to
invest the time into both parties. And that means companies
also investing it with their recruiters as well. I have
a lot of clients who initially I reach out to
(25:53):
them and they say, hey, I've only got ten minutes
to speak to you. I was like, my response is, well,
could you sell my company in ten minutes? Because I
sure as hell can't sell your us. You know they can't.
You know, you need to give me more time. Right
when it's done right, you know you can sell your
own company in ten minutes. You need more time to
do that. So it's it's not just the recruiters, it's
(26:13):
the companies also like to deal with it in a
transactional way and then wonder why they don't get the
quality of people, or it's taking too long, or we're
spending too much on the process.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yes, yes, indeed, and I like that.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
I like talking to the people hmm, you know, and
getting a feel for where they are, what matters to them.
And for me, one of the things I've had people
want to negotiate business over email.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
No no, no, no, no, that doesn't work for me. No,
it doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
And I tell them that, Yeah, they want to keep
pushing the email. So it's like, okay, I reready told
you how a role want to push this email? Huh
so now you get.
Speaker 5 (27:02):
Nothing, absolutely, especially when it comes to numbers or figures
or in my world, salaries or decisions. Yes, yeah, yeah,
it's weird people. Yeah, and we we use it as
a crutch, don't we, because we're afraid of the conversation.
So uh, it's but it's it's what we we what
(27:25):
we talk about here with the with the adverts and
with with dealing with people. To me, it seems like obvious, simple,
basic logic. But for some reason, again, one of my
mentors told me that recruitment is a completely irrational, completely
irrational process run by completely irrational people. And that's exactly
(27:45):
how it is.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
And that's a lot of things, you know, customer service,
they talk to.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
These bats talking about Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Gonna talk to a real person, or they solve the
problems through emails. Nope, I want to talk to you
right now. I got a problem. I'm upset. We need
to talk.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
And they're forcing these things on people. Yeah, you know,
and no boy license, no body.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
No.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
Well, but can't empathize with you, can it. It can't
understand truly what you're going through.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
So it's and then as soon as you put something
in they don't get, then they started the process all over.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Its horrible. It's horrible.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Yeah, I mean we're finding it in our in the
recruitment industry. There's obviously a big push for AI, like
in everything else, and I do believe in it a
hell of a lot. But when it comes to important,
complex problems that only humans can really deal with, it's
not to say that a machine can't do it, it's
that people don't want to do it with the machine,
(29:00):
right exactly, it's a machine. In my world where your
product is essentially a person. I don't like to put
it in that way, but my product essentially is a
human being with their own emotions, problems, you know, everything else,
and then your your customer is a person and you're
trying to put them together. Well, it's a recipe from
(29:23):
you know, chaos if a machine is doing nothing, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yes, indeed.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
And then sometimes you know with the seniors they have
all the time with that automation stuff they have.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I can I remember vividly this day.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
You know, my aunt was trying to pay her cable
bill and all they had was this automated stuff, and
they asked for her address.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
But she wants to say my address is.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
It doesn't want to hear my address is. It just
wants you to say your address. And I could not
get that through her head. So every time we had
the call back, I was telling, don't say my address is,
just say your addressed, just my address is.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
So it was almost trying to pay the bill.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
Absolute chaos, it is.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
And then when those systems break, Yeah, I did not understand.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I did not understand.
Speaker 5 (30:33):
Yeah, it's funny because just a very quick story. I
used to work in a bank before I was in recruitment.
I worked for a big bank called Barclay's Bank. I
think it's in America. Barklays Bank. Yeah, I used to
work in the branch, okay, a very busy one. People
come in all day. And it wasn't an AI system
(30:53):
we had there. We had a system which was like
a person on a screen and it had been programmed
with like every single question that anyone could answer, and
it was absolutely perfect, Like, it was really good what
it did. It was fun. This was like twelve years ago,
so it was really ahead of its time. It was great.
It was better than me at what I did, and
(31:14):
it was quicker, and we trialed it and customers universally
hated it. They hated it and they always asked to
speak with me no matter what, even though I was
way dumber and slower than the machine. But at the
same time that we were doing that, we were also
moving away from the tellers counting cash were being replaced
(31:38):
by the automated tellers. Okay, I used to do that
job as a teller. I was really bad at it
and really really bad. I lost a lot of money
for people counting incorrectly. What we found with that was
that customers really liked that. So we found from that
process is that transactional things people are quite happy dealing
(32:00):
with the machines, but complex problems. They didn't want to
use the machine for that. They needed a human to
understand on an emotional level. And we're talking about people's
money here, so it's obviously quite a it's an emotive
thing for people. They wanted to deal with a person
on that doesn't matter how good the machine was. They
wanted to deal with the person.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, And that's just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
We're humans that that emotional piece is a part of.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
All of us, absolutely, and.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Were just like and fall for the you know, just
any old thing when it comes to something that's making
us upset.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
We need like, we need a live.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Human being that can can can can actually put themselves
in your shoe, in our shoes, understand.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
What you're going through.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
We're here to help you, and we're going to do
everything in our power to get this issue resolved.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
For sure. And you have to have something opposite, some
one opposite you that you respect. The problem with the
AI or anything else is. And the way I talk
to my chat GPT is horrible. I'm an abuser to
my chat GPT because it's no matter what happens, I
can never hurt its feelings. I've got no respect for
it because it's not real. So on a human level,
(33:21):
even if someone's making mistake or maybe they're doing a
bad job in customer service or whatever. You know, there's
certain things you can't do or say. They're a human
being and you have to respect them on a human level. Yes,
no machine, no matter how good it is, you're ever
going to have that respect for them. You're still gonna
you know, give them the finger or whatever. You know.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Well, David, this has been amazing. We've covered a lot
of ground here we have.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
So again, how do people How do employers and applicants
connect with you?
Speaker 5 (33:58):
Yeah, like I said, Linin's the best place for me,
David ravel Chartter recruitment. Send your bad adverts in, we'll
get them fixed. We'll show you what you need to do.
And obviously we do recruitment as well. But as you
can tell, I'm based in the UK, so I'm not
sure where most of your audience is based. But most
of the recruitment we do is obviously in the UK.
(34:19):
But the adverts work no matter where you're from. If
you're selling to a human being and you want a
person to work for you, not an AI, you need
to put an advert up and you know we can
help you get those better.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
So absolutely, well, David, we are definitely going to do
this again. You're a fun guy to talk to and
you know you're in the right space because people need
the type of emotions and concern that you relay, especially
you know they're talking about changing their lives.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
To another position.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
They don't want to jump out the frome pain into
the failure. You know, they want somebody that makes them
understand what they may be getting into, also helping the
employer be more.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You know, mindful that we're dealing with humans here, We're not.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
How would you no, that thing on the other side
that's reading your words has got ambitions, goals, fears, beliefs.
If you write it in with no emotion or no
reason to join your business, guess what people aren't going
to apply to it. It's not rocket science. Like if
(35:40):
you applied that same thinking to you how you do
with your customers, you'd never sell one dollar of any product.
So you're just applying the same principles to your customers
you do with people who want to join your business.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
That's all absolutely wow. Thank you so much, David.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Thank you and sharing and dropping so much information on
us today. It's like you recovered a mile for sure.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Well, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity.
You're a wonderful host, and I've listened to quite a
few of your podcasts and always love the conversations that
you have, So I appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Thank you, thank you, and audience.
Speaker 5 (36:23):
Thank you, yeah, thank you audience.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Thank you to our guests, and you our value audience.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
Let's stop doing about it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
We truly appreciate you. Many blessings to you and yours.
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