Take Control of Your Finances and Start Building Wealth

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (01:51):
Welcome, Welcome to just Slant in my Business Media. I
hope you're having an amazing day and today I am
so happy to bring to you Doug Lyman and who
has a journey from marine Benedictine monk to financial expert showcases.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
He has a unique blend.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Of discipline, spirituality and financial insight. After excelling in the
Marine Corps and spending twenty years as a monk and
math teacher, he transitioned to finance in twenty seventeen, becoming
a partner at Longview Asset Manager. He has several books

(02:35):
out best selling book From Monk to Money Manager, which
bridged the gap between ethical living and financial success. His
latest book, Taming Your Money Monster. He uses the enneagram
and psychology to guide people toward healthier financial behaviors.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
I am so honored to heavy today.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
That it's great to be here. We're really honored to
be on your show.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Wow, You're gonna have to tell me bring us to
the transitions from monk to the financial because you fight
across so many different borders.

Speaker 4 (03:22):
Kind of yeah, I say, I say, my life is
like a roller coaster ride, delind By salvad or Dolly
on a sugar high. So I started off. I grew
up outside Chicago in suburbia, a little town called Naperville,
and my my my parents were relatively affluent. My father
was a I was an executive for an oil company

(03:43):
and a good man, very loving, very kind. But when
my parents divorced when I when I was about eight,
money got weaponized in my family. It kind of became
the tool that my parents used to wound each other
and control their kids. And you know, you're on the list,
you get stuff. If you're on the that naughty list,
you don't get stuff. So there was a sort of performative.

(04:05):
Everything had strings attached to it, and so I sort
of my brothers and I, in a weird way, we
all ended up taking a vow rebelling against that world
and taking a vow of poverty. In some way, shape
or form. I eventually ended up in a monastery for
twenty years. My twin brother ran off and became a
homesteader in Vermont, and my older brother went and growing

(04:26):
a moderately successful grund band up in Seattle, so we
all kind of rejected that whole world because we were
so kind of kind of revolted by it. And I
mistakenly I made this mistake of thinking that money was
the rootable evil. And you know, say Paul says that
the love of money is the rootable evil, and so
if loving money is bad, then when the good way

(04:46):
to handle something that's bad is to hate it. That
was sort of the weird logical twist in my brain.
But first I went off to the Marine Corps to
try to prove to my dad that I was a
manly man who could do manly things. And I graduated
at the top of my class from Officer can at
school and then at that when and then my dad
didn't show it for my graduation, and I realized that
it didn't work. I was trying to impress him and

(05:07):
it just didn't. It didn't land. And I also realized that,
you know, having unresolved anger issues and using high explosives
was probably a bad career choice, and try to project
all my daddy issues on bad guys and blowing people
up was probably not the best way I could be
spending my time. So I went looking for a higher calling.
I was. I had a bit of a spiritual awakening,

(05:29):
and again I still had this of anti materialistic worldview.
So I said, well, what what what could be a
higher calling than the Marines. What would give me the
same brotherhood, the same camaraderie, the aesprit de corps, the discipline,
the community. All the things I liked about the Marines
I found in a monastery and what I thought was
a higher purpose. And you know, I loved the Marines
and I had a great time with it. But so

(05:50):
I did that, and so that was there for twenty years,
and I was the head of a math department at
a prestige of school. But one of the things I
found in the monastery is that all of us hated
dealing with money. And if you're in a community where
no one like talking about it, dealing with it and
really getting into the nuance of finance, then things are

(06:11):
going to go sideways. And eventually the monastery went bankrupt
about the third year that I was there. It turns
out we all hated money, so we took the vile
poverty a little too seriously, and someone had to figure out,
how do we get us out a lot of this quagmire,
and for bizarre, whatever random reasons, it fell on my shoulders.
And a few years and I meant, I went to

(06:31):
the bookstore and I just grabbed every book on personal
finance I could find and devoured them. And then and
then I realized I had a talent and skilled And
so then what I kind of noticed is that monastery guests,
when they would come to the monastery with spiritual problems,
there was often a financial issue looking in the background,
like this financial thing was either a direct pause of

(06:53):
the problems or a secondary issue. There might be a
death in a family that it might be in a
state to probate. There might be lawsuits, credit card debt,
whatever that, you know, they'd say, they come and they
asked me to pray for them, which I did. But
I also realized that doing that and making a budget
would be much more effective. And so I really kind
of was good teaching people. I think that's my real skill.

(07:13):
I think ultimately I'm a teacher more than anything else,
which is my great love. And so I was able
to teach these people how to, you know, pull themselves
out of their financial holes and really put their financial
life on solid ground and every other aspect of their
life would improve. And so we know that now that
poverty is the one of the biggest predictors of mortality

(07:35):
that we have. Like poor people get hit with everything,
you more of what you don't want to get hit
more with obesity, addiction, alcoholism, domestic violence, abuse, injury, and death.
So the more we can help people pull themselves out
of poverty, the more we can alleviate suffering of the world.
And so that's where I kind of realized that I

(07:56):
think Mark Twain was a bit more accurate when he
said that the lack of my is the root of voluble,
Like this is the thing that really gets us into trouble.
And so what I've really been exploring, and I of
course went on to go on and that when I
left the monaster, I became an investment advisor and I
was managing about two hundred fifty million dollars in assets
and love that. But then I, yeah, so that was

(08:20):
trying to teach people how do you ethically build wealth?
How do you do this in a way that's sustainable
for you, for your family, for your community, and the
world around you. And so what I'm really exploring in
my new book, Taming Your Money Monster, is this psychological
tool called the enneagram and how our personality type can
predict the kind of financial problems that we're each likely
to have and how to overcome them.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Wow, that's interesting, you know, because a lot of times
when you talk to.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Money is definitely mental. It's an emotion, emotional, it's all of.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
That wrapped up, and like you said, lack of it,
I think is the root of all because when you
don't have it, all kinds of things. I mean, we
all know things are going to happen to you.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
You know, anyway, and most times it costs something. It
costs something.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
So when you don't have money, the problem becomes even
bigger because you don't have the resources to take care.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
Of it exactly. It's like, you know, it's like walking
over a tightrope over a pool of alligators every single day.
Like it's just the stress of being poor and unbelievable,
and the stress that causes and the suffering it causes,
especially for our children, is just something that I feel
passionate that we need to help people with.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yes, absolutely, And you know, mindset around money pretty much
in your case, it's totally different, but childhood. Our childhood
has experiences, has a lot to do with what we think.

Speaker 4 (10:01):
About money, right, And so there's there's two what I
called there's this thing called the attachment theory of money,
which is based on the attachment theory of relationships, which
you might be familiar with that, but basically what it
says is that there's there's two ways we can have
an unhealthy attachment to money. We can either be anxious
anxiously attached to it, kind of like Ebenezer Scrooge, or

(10:23):
we can be fearfully avoidant of it and puts it away,
which is what I did for for much of my life.
And both of those reactions are are are unhealthy ways
in which we can we self sabotage our finances and
our own happiness. And so really what I'm exploring in
this book is we've got these nine archetypal personality patterns
in the Enneagram, and then there's, if we layer on

(10:45):
top of that this attachment theory of money, that gives
us two unhealthy ways that each of the different Enneagram
types have in relating to money in their own unique, quirky,
maybe unhealthy habits.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, yeah, So can you get into a couple of
different fellas here.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
Sure, so so mate us explain how the anagram works,
just to give you a quick eye level overview, and
then maybe there's diving into one type. Well maybe talk
about my type because it's easy, and I know we
don't have a lot of time. But like so, the
way the an anagram works is you have to imagine
what it was like for you when you were in
your mother's womb, when you when you're first, when consciousness

(11:26):
first flickers on for you, when you first kind of
spark up in this world, what was that experience like?
And so my hypothesis is that you were unconscious. You
didn't have a clear sense of self, of me and
not me, there's no ego, hasn't really formed yet, and
so you're unconscious, but you're in unity with everything that
you can experience. And it's a very limited experience, of course,

(11:49):
but that's kind of how our journey in life starts.
And then we get born and surprise, there's more to
reality than just us. And there's a physical umbilical cord
that obvious has to be cut, but then there's this
psychological umbilical cord that forms between us and our caregivers,
and so our ego becomes sort of dependent or heavily

(12:12):
enmeshed with our caregivers for the first few years of
our life because they have to do most of the
driving in life. For us, we're helpless. You know, children
don't even have a sense of object permanence yet they
don't know that exists when they're not not even looking
at them. And so over time we grow and we develop.
But that psychological umbilical cord with our caregivers has to
be cut, and it has to be cut with negative emotions,

(12:35):
because positive emotions would just reinforce our connection to our caregivers.
Did that track for you so far?

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yes? Yes, yes, And when you say negative emotions, what
does that mean?

Speaker 4 (12:47):
Okay? So we know from the neuroscience, and this is
based on the work of an affect of neuroscientist named
Yak Kangcep, and he discovered that in the Midlympic region,
of all mammals than mice and dogs and cats and
us and apes, there's there's really just three four negative emotions.
So all of our other negative negative emotions are some

(13:08):
sort of mixture of anger, sadness, and fear. So anger
sadness and fear are the three different ways that that
psychological umbilical courts. We can hit with all three, but
one of those emotions is going to do most of
the cutting for you, and that's going to determine where
you sort of land on the enneagram. So the anagram

(13:30):
think of a pie, like a pizza pie or an
apple pie. And if you break it into three quadrants, right,
we're gonna have one quadrant is going to be the
anger quadrant, and then we're gonna have a sadness quadrant,
and then we're gonna have a fear quadrant. So how
your psychological umbilical core gets cut determine which of those
three quadrants you land into. And then there's three ways

(13:51):
to process that emotion. We can either internalize it, which
is kind of like giving yourself an emotional wedgie, or
you can us eternalize it, which is like having a
food fight with the world, or you can have both.
And so that's why there's nine personality types in the
enneagram because there's three core negative emotions in three ways
that we can process those emotions.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Okay, so how do people get the book?

Speaker 4 (14:17):
You can get it on Amazon. It comes out on
July eighth.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Oh, okay, awesome, awesome, this is I've never tried to put.

Speaker 4 (14:26):
This web huh So for example, but with my any
any Ram type, I'm what's called it type three, and
that means that my psychological umbilical cord was cut by
sadness or some shame work too. They're very similar. It's
really it's sort of what we mean by sadness is
like separation, distress or grief or sadness about how So

(14:50):
for me, what it is I have internalized sadness and
I have externalized sadness in my core emotional wound. I
call this your sacred wound. And that wound for me
means that I feel sad about how I perceive myself.
It's my internal sadness. And then I have this externalized sadness,
which means I feel shame or greed about how I

(15:11):
think people perceive me. And so what that does, and
we all have a what it does? We all have
an unconscious greatest fear. So the greatest fear for a
Type three like me is that I'm fundamentally worthless. I
feel like I don't have real value in the world
because all that sadness is like leaving me feeling like

(15:31):
I don't have real value. And so I give all
the enneagram types car nicknames because you know, think of
like cars, there's there's an infinite variety of cars, but
there's yours is a unique make and model, and so
the aneagram is like the model of car you're driving.
And so I called the Type three the race car.

(15:52):
And we're a race car because we're always gunning for
the next achievement, but we're often leaving our authentic selves
in the dust, like we were always trying to like
win the race, get the gold stars, start the business,
make a lot of money, you know, be the a student, whatever, whatever,
whatever people around us think is important for success. That's
what a Type three wants to embody. They really care

(16:14):
about success because losing in any way griggers all that
internalized grief and shame. And so threes are like export
mask changers, like we will change our persona. We will
change our mask and a heartbeat to adapt ourselves to
whatever we think the people around us will find healing
or will win approval. And so then what that means

(16:38):
is all that is all in what we call your
shadow structure. This is based on Carl Jung that we
have this shadow structure in our in our soul. And
let me just back up and say, so, your personality
actually has two parts. Right, You've got the nature part
that's your DNA, and you've got your nurture part. So
the anagram is the nurture part of your personality. So
it tells you that chassis of the car you're driving.

(16:59):
But you know your DNA will tell you whether you're
gonna have leather seats in a great sound system or
a lousy muffler. Right, those things can fit any any
kind of ego vehicle if you will. And so then
but for each type, it then creates what I call
your worst vice. So the worst vice for a Type
three is the feat And that doesn't mean that we're

(17:19):
intentionally liars. It means it's the masks we're wearing. We're
always putting these masks on. It's kind of deception, like
we're not letting our authentic selves out very easily. What
we need to learn to do. So what threes need
to do is learn to take these masks off. But
the money monsters for a type three are what I
call there's these two money monsters for the three. I

(17:41):
call them the barrier and the blinger. So the barrier
like me, that's what my type is. That if the
three who has all this shame and sadness around money,
that they want to bury their head in the sand
like an ostrich and not look at it because looking
at their finances triggers all that shame and sadness. So
they just they're they're avoidant around money and they and

(18:02):
they really just don't want to deal with it like
I did when I don't demonastery, like I thought I
was going to get away from money and materialism forever. Great,
take a file poverty, put a robot, and I don't
have to think about this thing ever. Again, wouldn't that
be great? Well? Whoops, you know, that's just not how
life works. And then on the flip side, so the three,
I have what's called the blinger. So the blinger is

(18:22):
someone who takes might earn a lot of money, but
then they tend to spend all their money on status
symbols or lay like they want the big house, the
fancy car, you know, the wat whatever whatever whatever it says.
Look at me, look at me, validate me, tell me
I'm important and so but that can really be devastating
for their financial life because they may earn a lot,

(18:45):
but if you spend everything that you make, or you're
spending beyond your means, that's just going to create all
kinds of financial issues down the road. Which is actually
my dad's story. He made a lot of money, but
by the end of his life most of it was gone.
So so those are two examples. That's one example of
the type three of how are what our money monsters
are and how they develop? And then there's a flip

(19:07):
side to that, there's a whole structure about how then
you overcome that and become a money master?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yes, yes, and and I guess it's important to know
which category you fall in. And that's some inner work
for sure, because a lot of times we are doing
but we're not necessarily paying attention to the wise.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
We're doing what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
So how do you support people to recognize this is
this is where I fit in the in the any ingram?

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Okay, how do I overcome it? Well?

Speaker 4 (19:48):
Okay, so first you get to figure out what your
type is and there's actually some pretty good online tests
you can take. I can send you a link to
the one that I like and actually I have a
licensing deal with a company called i e Q nine
and I get a kick back whenever anyone takes it
through my link. But I can share that with you
if you want to put that in your show notes.
But first you to figure out what your type is,

(20:10):
and then you kind of need to read my book
to it goes into so much depth and detail into
all of this, But essentially what it is the way
to overcome there's the way to overcome it is is
your spiritual journey. It's you know, whatever your faith tradition is,
you need to go deep into it and connect with
your deepest values and really overcome some of your worst

(20:31):
vices and your worst tendencies based on your Enneagram type.
And so for a Type three like me, if I
can get over that dead seat, then what I need
to work on is modesty, Like that would be the
virtue for a type three is to be more modest
in how we present ourselves to the world, like because
the threes are always like look at me, look at me,
look at me. Look how amazing I am, Look how

(20:51):
wonderful I am. We're we're always trying to impress you.
So what a three really needs to do is learn
to just modesty. Is that isn't so much humility because
you can push them down. Then that triggers the internalized
shame and sadness. So it's finding the sort of balance
between narcissistic self agrandizement and nihilistic despair. And so you're

(21:12):
finding that modest, accurate assessment of who you are as
a Type three, that's the first thing that's that's the
first spiritual practice that A three needs to do, and
then there's a secondary virtue, and that their secondary virtue
is going to be faith, which isn't about a particular
doctrine or dogma. It's about having the faith to take

(21:33):
the masks off. It's the first you have to have
modest modesty, find the accurate self assessment, and then you
need to be able to have the faith to take
the masks off and let people see who you you
really are. And then you to the highest virtue for
a Type three, which would be authenticity, that we're really
able to present ourselves authentically, show our true selves to

(21:55):
the world and mostly to ourselves. Because three don't know
who they really are in their in their in their
or because they ever take the time for that kind
of introspectrum most of the time. But when they can,
when they can practice that modesty, modesty and faith which
leads to their authenticity, then they can become what I
call the money master, which is the builder. So the
type three is the builder who takes all of their talents,

(22:17):
all of their resources, you know, and their and their
time and treasure, and rather than using it for inflating
their ego, bringing out their life with stuff, or trying
to get people to be impressed by their status symbols,
instead they're building something of lasting value and significance in
love and service to a broken world. Which is why
I think we are put here on this planet and

(22:39):
why we were called to be wealthy, because wealth is
the best tool we have. We're healing suffering, and so
when you deploy it accurately, when you find out what
your true talents are, and then you are able to
get your financial house in order and have all the
resources that you need. Now you can go out there
and fix the crack in the world that that God

(23:00):
puts you on on the plant to heal.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Absolutely, And you said something very very important that we're
here to serve, you know, that's that's the camp key
to everything. And you know, I always say take the
money away and see how much you love it, because.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
If you can do it for free and enjoy it,
the money will come, right, the money will come. You know, Wow,
this is this is amazing.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
You know, another way to look at our mindset around money,
and it's it's a lot of layers.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
To it, a lot of layers to it.

Speaker 5 (23:47):
Now, let me ask you, do you work with people
to help them because sometimes you can read a book,
but sometimes you need that accountability to.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Help you move out of that particular mindset because you're
not used to it, so you're kind of stepping outside
of your comfort zone.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, so do you support people there?

Speaker 4 (24:12):
I do, so if people would like, they can go
to my website, which is Doug Lineum dot com. That's
d o u z l y n a M Doug
Lineum dot com and there you can get a coaching
tession with me if you'd like. I do also do
workshops and retreats, and I do keynote events for conferences.

(24:34):
So all those resources are available and you can get
the book there as well. So that would be a
way that people can learn more, can get more educated.
And can find all the tools that they need to
really tame their money monsters.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yes, yes, and Doug, I am so happy that you
are being authentic, you know, and telling your story about
your why you and that's a that's a huge thing. Thanks,
thank you, because you know, a lot of times we
hear about the glory, but we never hear the pain,

(25:10):
right and the reason why the pain was there, So
thank you for that.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
So welcome.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Talk a little bit about From Monk to Money Manager.
Tell us a little bit about what that book contails.

Speaker 4 (25:25):
Well, I would say that's really a how to guide.
So from Monk to Money Manager. The subtitle is a
former Monk's Financial Guide to becoming a little bit wealthy
and why that's okay. So really it's just I'm using
my personal journey, my life story, all the things I
learned in the monastery to teach people the basics of finance,

(25:48):
like earning, saving, investing, and giving. How do you do
all those things? The nuts and bolts of like budgeting, inscurrence, taxes.
So it's really kind of a very everything I wish
someone would have taught me about money before I left
college or high school. So it's really written for like
a high school college someone. You know, it's for anybody really,

(26:10):
but it's really all the all the simple but essentials
that I think everyone needs to know in order to
be financially literate, to have the tools necessary to navigate
their financial life in a healthy and successful way. So
it's really that how to book. And then my new book,
Team and Your Money Monster is more of a why

(26:30):
do book, like why do you do stupid things with money?
So that one's more about the psychology of money, where
the first book is really about the nuts and bolts.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Okay okay, And that's that's definitely needed because you know,
like you said, some people make a lot of money
and spend it all, you know what I'm saying, and
then when the rainy day come, they don't have anything, right,
So you have to you have to have that balance.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
You have to know how to balance.

Speaker 4 (27:04):
Finally, Yeah, that's what I got to call it, call
it four pillars of finance. So the four pillars of
finance are earning, You got to make enough money. Second
pillar is saving, right, so if you spend everything that
you earn, you're going to be broke. Then the third
one is investing, so then you have to take your
savings for you need a good emergency fund. And beyond that,

(27:25):
you need to start investing in the stock market. You
need to figure out or you know whatever. Stock market
is really the easiest place I think for most people
begin their investing journey, and I recommend index funds, by
the way, if anyone's curious about that. And then in
capturing the power of compound growth from the long term
growth of the market, and that's really how all wealth

(27:45):
is developed in this country. So then once you have
that wealth, then the fourth pillar then, of course, is giving.
How do you give back? What do you Why did
you amass all this fortune if it wasn't to use
it in service to others? So for that, so that's
kind of the basic overview.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yes, well you're definitely gonna have to come back here
because this is a lot to absorb and we definitely
need to break it down into you know, manageable pieces,
and people need to hear this again, yeah, so that
they can get that understanding that they need to sort through.

(28:28):
And I'm so happy that you have resources to help
people because most people need Like children, we like kids,
I don't care how old we are.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
When it's new and it's foreign. We need our hands help.

Speaker 4 (28:45):
Well, you know what might be fun if you want
to do a show is for another episode? Is here?
Come on and walk you through your Enneagram type. We
can figure out what your type is and then what
your money monsters are.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Wow, that'd be interesting. Yeah, so we could do that.
That'll put me in a more in a vulnerable place.
But I need to know, I mean, I.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Can't to know how I think about money. You know,
I'm very strategic with money. You know, I saved.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
Coins, you name it.

Speaker 4 (29:22):
You know.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
I believe in having not putting everything in one cookie jarar,
but spreading in and around.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
So and I learned that over the years.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
It wasn't anything that from childhood because my childhood was
survival mode, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
So I had to learn that. I document every nickel.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
Well got you here, it worked here. So so you congratulations.
You're sound like you're in a good spot now.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah. Well, it was trial and error and it was learning,
you know along the way. What what what makes more
comfort and peace? Because I'm all about being comfortable and
at peace.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Those are my two things that drive me.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
All right, Oh, you might be a type nine. That
might be a quick guess okay, so well, because type
times are called the peacemakers. They like everything peaceful, so
that might be your type. But put a pin in
that we can dive into that in the in the
next show.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
Absolutely absolutely, Doug, Well, I don't want to thank you
for joining us today and dropping all of these nuggets
on us.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I hope everybody was writing.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
It down and you know, because it's a lot to
absorb and it's one of the inner work. It's not
out of work, is inner work, and inner work is
always much more difficult.

Speaker 4 (31:04):
Yeah, always, always.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
So until the next time, Doug, all right, a great
chot with you. So thank you so much for joining us,
and thank you audience as well for being a part
of this show. Thank you to our guests and you
our value audience.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Let's stop you by. We truly appreciate you. Many blessing.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
It's to you and yours.

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