Discusses: Steve Weatherby and the Music Industry

Episode Transcript
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(00:17):
So you're Steve Weatherbee and you mostyour Yeah, we can talk about okay,
so you are on your linked inat least like I'm gonna beat this
too out b on your LinkedIn.I have you as the SVP of Label
and Artists Partnerships for Ingrows correct Inger'sMusic Group. What's Ingrows. Ingrow's is

(00:38):
a music an independent music distribution company. So I used to work with you
you did, or for you atwith Inger with you for you at first
when it was Sovereign, and thenwith you at Ingrows, and then Ingrow's
was bought by Universal Music Group.Yeah, so we sold Sovereign music in

(00:58):
two thousand and sixteen, leave toIngrew's music distribution. Universal always had a
share of Ingrew's music and then intwo thousand and nineteen they were fully acquired
by Universal Music Group. That itwas actually it went well. Um,
I think anybody who's been in theindustry for a long time, like you,

(01:21):
anticipate changes, attrition, layoffs,all this kind of stuff, and
none of that really happened. AndI think, well, you know,
yeah, well for the most part, I mean, it could have been
significantly, it could have been worse. Yeah, Yeah, the whole financials
decide of it. Didn't they getLego finance and ingres No. I mean
I think certain people did. Ido feel like it was an opportunity to

(01:44):
just kind of like, you know, yeah, reevaluate like the internal sort
of infrastructure, but it wasn't necessarilydue to Universal saying you had to right
go through this process. I thinkit was just more of what it's like
a housekeeping type of area where it'sjust like, look like you know,
I think Universal initially looked at justmargins salaries. You know, it just

(02:07):
kind of said, look, wehave to kind of trim it down a
little bit. But it wasn't likea typical sort of merger where it's just
like complete departments were just you know, sort of let go. It's just
kind of like more of an overview. But the reality was I think everyone
thought there was gonna be significant changesin the first year, and it really
didn't happen, like and within twoyears we started to see how we were

(02:28):
being incorporated into Universal using back endyou know, offices and services that they
already had established. So yeah,so I mean it was fine. I
think I think it went a lotbetter than people sort of anticipated, Yeah,
and they sort of let us bein Groups, which is an independent
music distribution company. That's still thecase too right now, it's it's a

(02:51):
little bit different because they also haveanother distribution company that was called Caroline Distribution
that was rebranded two years ago asVirgin Music Group, So now you know,
and then Universal went public last yearI think it was last year.
So when you do that, youkind of go through you do your due
diligence, kind of go through youryour company and see what makes sense what
doesn't make sense, And it didn'tmake sense that the two distribution companies,

(03:15):
so the idea always was to mergethe two into one offering. Virgin Music
is a much stronger brand than Ingrows. Ye. People even have trouble saying
Ingrows and we never did marketing likeit was. It was very interesting how
successful Ingrows was, But we didn'thave a marketing department. You know,
we really weren't out there putting togetherevents and like really showcasing who we were.

(03:38):
So kudos I think everybody who sortof stuck with Ingrews and just made
it a successful entity even without that. Yeah, you said you were part
of are you you were a founderof Sovereign Music. Correct, tell me
about Sovereign? What was Sovereign myfavorite company to work for the world,
Not only because like I've been inthe music business for like thirty years.

(03:58):
I've worked for every major label,multiple major publishers, independent companies, business
management, froms, etc. Yeah, and I just got to a point
in the music business where it justfelt too corporate for me. It didn't
feel like a music job, feltlike I was working for a bank.
Yeah, I might as well justgo work for a bank. And then
my business partner, Jennifer Carey,we had met, she had just had

(04:19):
a baby, I had some clients, and we were like, hey,
we could probably do this independently ifyou want to stay home. I took
her job at GELF and rendered Feldmanhandling artist royalties there, and then you
know, I started basically giving herclients and she started growing this business,
and we started growing the business together, and it was great. You know,

(04:39):
it was really fun in an industrythat is so dominated by large companies
to be able to have your ownindependent company and be successful. Yea.
You know. And we never advertised, we never marketed. Everything was the
word of mouth, so it wasalways people telling other people about us,
and that was such an amazing feeling. But you it's also a challenge to

(05:00):
scale a small independent business, particularlyin Los Angeles share and it's hard,
you know, And it's like youcan't you can't hire a colleague every time
you get a new client. Itjust doesn't work that way. Yeah,
that the financial end doesn't work thatway. Just a workload, it doesn't
really work that way, So youhave to wear multiple hats. And I
think what I also loved about Sovereignmore than anything is and it sort of

(05:24):
backs my experience, or I guessI should say my experience backs why we
started Sovereign is like I understand fromlike the second a song is written,
how it works all the way throughto the last penny is paid out.
Most people in the major music world, like they know one responsibility and they
know that response would be really well, but they don't always understand what's before

(05:45):
it, or what comes after it, or just how the whole their their
piece plays a part in the wholepuzzle. Okay, so you've kind of
had a part of that whole process, huh. Yeah, And you know,
and again, like I moved herefrom the Midwest, and you know,
when you move here, you're like, I'm gonna be an artist manager
or I'm gonna be A and Rand I'm gonna I'm gonna be this guy

(06:05):
and that guy, or I'm gonnabe a successful artist. And you know,
from the get go, I alwayshad like administration roles. I always
like licensing and you know, publishingand stuff like that. And you know,
royalties was not a department or responsibilitythat people were wanting to get into,
you know, so, uh well, Jen and I always joke it's

(06:27):
like, you know, sometimes youjust gotta embrace the suck, like you
know, if it's if it's atough department and challenging, you know,
sometimes you just have to go,why why is it this need to be
Like is it because companies aren't focusingenough attention on making that process better,
you know, more modern with royaltyaccounting, like you know, Universal still
uses a system Royal again ex systemfrom nineteen eighty four, like its the

(06:49):
DOS screen string and they're you know, they're the biggest entertainment company in the
world, and you just kind ofgo, why, you know, And
now we're starting to see because theindepend music business has grown so much that
they need these tools to be ableto do their job and creative an independent
companies generally are made up of morecreative folks. You know, you don't

(07:12):
see a really strong ADMIN person likeyou know, starting a record label.
Generally, it's usually somebody who canidentify talent and nurture talent as good at
marketing and that whole side of it. And you know, it's a left
brain right brain scenario. So thesecreative types do not want to sit for
twelve hours or twenty four hours orsix months processing royalties when they could be
out identifying creative Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, but you know, but

(07:38):
with that said, the one thingwhere we identified early on is how important
that admin side is because the businesscannot flourish without it, right, Call
it unnecessary evil? Yeah? Isuppose, Yeah, yeah, I mean
and even just again see it atthe major label scale compared to like that
independent scale, you just kind ofgo, it's interesting, it is a

(08:00):
necessity. It isn't necessary evil,But how do you how do you make
it easier and better for everybody else? So sovereign? How long did you
run sovereign? For um? Itwas it was probably like for like six
years, six years. Yeah,all right, okay, yeah, and
then I came in at with thetail end of that. Ye, that

(08:22):
was a that was fun. Yeah, it's like you were fun. I
could have gotten in trouble if you'resaying, I gotta tell you a story
that I have to not have onhere. But so so I went and
saw Nick, you know, AndI think it is interesting because sometimes those

(08:50):
people get promoted and you're just kindof like, I don't really understand that
my wife had a terrible, terribleboss like that would just be little or
at every turn, and you're justlike, how is this like working together?
Like how is this working well?You know, and then eventually that
woman was let go and it's justlike, you know, eventually it all
kind of catches up to you.But my whole philosophy always was in the

(09:13):
music business especially, it was justlike, just be good to people,
be nice to people. Yeah,you know, I have a signed frame
in my office that just does workhard and be nice. You know,
it's good. It's a good word, and you can always be nice.
Yeah. Well, and I thinkit helps, you know, for what
I do now, which is basicallybusiness development. Um, it really helps

(09:35):
when you sit and you listen topeople and you you know, you're nice
to them, and it's not justtrying to smooth, you know, for
business, it's more like, look, we're working together, Like I just
want to make this as comfortable aspossible, you know, like I'll try
and be as honest as possible aboutthe situation. Um, but the ideas
we're working together, so you know, you know, you don't push my

(09:58):
buttons. I don't want to pushthis. You've always struck me as a
kind of person who, like,as a boss, you hire for character
and training for skill. Yeah,and I think that's a good part because
it's such a like it's an activeday, it's a very busy, right.
But I mean to that point,like, I think that I like

(10:20):
that you say that because to me, I want to work with people that
I like, you know, andit's like I don't want to hire and
I have made mistakes in the pastthose people who are just negative, miserable
people. You know. It's likeI love coming in the work and I
feel like that's why I like thesmaller companies always appealed to me, where
you can just kind of come inand you know, I helped a colleague

(10:41):
move the other day and she's likea coordinator. Um, and I was,
you know, and they were like, your boss is so nice.
I'm like, I'm not doing thisas your boss. I'm doing this as
your friend. Like yeah, justlike you don't have to be there,
doesn't have to be like a superstrict like hierarchy all the time. It's
like, just be good at whatyou do and we'll all work together and
stuff. Right. You know,bigger companies generally have that that hierarchy that

(11:03):
they really of course, and Iunderstand that, but a smaller companies you
wear so many different hats. That'sjust kind of like, let's just get
this stuff, let's figure out it. Yeah. Yeah, I really enjoyed
like just having that that perspective andworking for you and Chen and being like,
you know, it's a super coolplace to be in. So long
as you get your work done,it doesn't matter the type of shit that

(11:26):
was not how it works because smallercompany function can't afford to do that.
But like a bigger company like Warnernot at all like that, And that's
something like something let's see I'll getyour kid. Yeah, right, Like
I did not turn off like noisecancelation or whatever. But I when I
was like, oh, he toldme, he was like, you know,

(11:48):
you're really great, You're fun tobe around. We appreciate your company,
but it's just not there. Butit's nothing to do with you.
We like you a lot. AndI said to him because I was upset,
and there's a reasonable I said,But I was like, you know,
but that's not keeping me my job, is it. Yeah, And
he's like, I don't want totell you, well, thank you anything
for you, you know. Andagain that was a few years ago,

(12:09):
but sometimes like honesty really is thebest way for people to understand, like
why things didn't work the way thatthey work. You know, every situation
is not perfect. Then it couldhave been a blessing in disguise for all
you know. I know, Ithink it was in every situation is a
learning Yeah, because he come awayfrom that and go gosh, like,
why didn't it work? What didI do? Like next time, I'll

(12:31):
try and be different or try andbe better, or try and not do
that, A B and C whateverit is. But you can't really like
you can't be like a fully liketype B person and be successful in the
end. Well, I, well, define success. It was successful.
I guess success isn't from what Iunderstand, It's not like it's not how

(12:54):
high you rise, but how longyou can stay in Again, I think,
well, that's interesting, right,because is I worked for Universal Priorum
early two thousands, and you know, going back to like the whole sort
of burned out on a corporate musicbusiness. It's like it was Universal that
I was just like, it justdoesn't feel like a music gigwe at Universe.

(13:15):
Yeah, I know that's the irony. Um, it's sort of like
the lifelong you know, bad jokeor bad tricks. It's just like what
here im, But it also mightjust be the universe saying like, yo,
this is where you belong, likefigured out you know, um Universe
Universal. Um. But what's interestingis I just totally lost my train of

(13:37):
thought. Uh what we were justsaying, we were saying really being type
and lasting one the industry. Sosorry. My point was I went back
to Universal like ten years later.Yeah, um, after selling Sovereign,
we're back in sort of the Universalbuilding. And I saw literally the same

(13:58):
people that I worked with ten yearsprior, in the same jobs, the
same seats, same titles, same, everything happy, And I just remember
sitting there going like these people likeyou know what I mean, Like no
one's moved up, no one's movedon. They're still in the same jobs,
and you know, everyone's goals area little bit different. So I

(14:18):
joke about that because I tend ifyou look at my resume, I left
jobs like every two years before sovereignbecause I was like, there's no room
for promotion, like I'm out ofhere. These people sat in those jobs.
Now you know, you could say, like, oh, I can't
believe they just stayed those jobs.But every one of them there were four,
one gay is much more significant thanand they've got ten ure. And

(14:41):
there's value to that. In LA, I think people forget, like to
a lot of people, that's that'sa job. You know, that's like
being a dentist in Missouri or beingan accountant in Ohio. You know,
like where you've a universal music groupin LA can just be a job.
Like people come in and nine,they leave it six and that's what your
family. You have money for avacation, you go, you go to

(15:01):
any concert. You just kind oftickets. But it could be it could
be any industry. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's people like me,
which positive negative or how we viewit, who's always trying to push that
envelope. And you know there arechallenges to that. There's you're always looking
for that success, right, whichyou have to identify what that is for

(15:22):
you, whether it's money or titleyea or a big four oh one k
right right, you know, anexpense account, whatever it is, you
know. Yeah, And and Ijust I just got to a point where
it was just like you just youknow, you just gotta just do what
you do, be good at it. And then you know, like for
me, it was recognizing that Idon't have to push the envelope every day.

(15:43):
Sure, Like I just be goodat what I do, be nice
to people, and just let letthe world go where it needs to go.
Yeah, you know that's crazy.Yeah, And and I honestly do
feel like with the music business,I always tell people it's like a carousel.
It's it's a small enough industry.We're just all on different horses.
So if you get off one joband you get another, you're on the
same ride. Like you're gonna seethe people over and over again. And

(16:06):
you know, I think about allthe people I started with when I started
out in the mail room of BMG. Yeah, like the majority of those
people are gone, right, youknow, they left the industry, they
did whatever, and there's all youknow, there's a handful of us that
are sort of still in it.But a lot of times you just have
to stay in the race, youknow, and you'll find your way wherever
that that may be. So youyou've been it for so long, you

(16:29):
must have seen some I'm sorry,you know, just something like that.
But like my back just all ofa sudden started. Then another grade be
to bring that. But you musthave seen some pretty like significant changes happened
in the last thirty years, yousay, well, I mean, you
know, again, when I firststarted a music business, it's still a
very physical like distribution driven business,CDs, you know, vinyl, Like

(16:55):
you know, we were joking theother day just about all the promos used
to get like CD promo because everybodywould give them out. That was part
of the marketing, that's right,you know. Yeah, And then when
you think about even like royalties backthen, you know, artists got paid
once for that album by CD.You can listen to a one hundred and
fifty times artist only gets paid onceand the writers only get people once,

(17:17):
right, But nowadays, you know, seeing that evolution from like CDs to
like digital downloads to streaming, etcetera, and just how the policy is
sort of around it changed, andthe royalties and the infrastructure that happened.
What I'm definitely gonna like spin thisis like, this is what it's like
in La guys. It's busy,you know, people are talking drinking,

(17:41):
yeah, stuff going from analog todigital, yeah, and just streaming.
Like when you think to yourself,like what comes after streaming? You know?
And I will probably live long enoughto see it. I don't know
what it is, but you know, it's fascinating when you think you went
from this physical, tangible object tolike the ether, you know what I

(18:04):
mean, Like like what comes afterthat? Chips in the brain, like
artificial intelligence, which I'm just nota fan of. I'm not a fan
of for music. I'm a fanof for admin sure, but you know,
but it is one of those thingswhere it's like, would you know
the difference between a song that waswritten by human versus the song that was
written by computer? You know,way it depends on the song because you

(18:27):
can, you can see it inimages, but then your ears, how
good are we? It identified well? And you know, I always feel
like my parents, you know,because my parents like rock and roll,
like doing the industry. Even hereI'm not a puritan him and people like
AI. It's like that's not real, like you need humans to do it.

(18:48):
But but I think it just dependson the generation brought up. Like
I I like emotion, I likeinflection. I like I like notes that
aren't perfect. I like songs thatjust there, say a screech or yell
or whatever. Then you're just like, yeah, that's cool, versus like
a very strategic formulated song I liked. I like AI is like a tool

(19:11):
for creativity, you know, likethe way I write songs and you know,
I've never released a song, sowho am I right? But the
way you don't have to release asong to be a songwriter. But like
when I write songs, I taketwo images, two randomly generated images,
and then I link the two andI write about that connection before and so
it's like, Okay, maybe Idon't know where that inspiration is coming from,

(19:33):
but that's like my brain. I'mgonna write a story about this situation
or whatever, and it works.But like AI generated images, just let's
like, you know, throw insome keywords. You know, it's a
good tool for inspiration if it's likethat. Well, and you know,
to your point, I agree withyou. I think I grew up without
a cell phone. Sure, youknow, now everybody has cell phones,

(19:56):
access to computers and iPads and whatnot. And I I do think it's just
the advent of technology. It iswhat it is, and you can embrace
it. And I think it's goodto embrace it. But I also feel
like it's not good to depend onit, right, Yeah, that's fair.
And again, like I feel likeI'm sort of like the foot in,
foot out sort of generation where itwas like you grew up doing a

(20:18):
lot of physical, manual stuff whichtaught you a lot about just the world.
You know. Yeah, um,And I feel like these days kids
are truly dependent. I mean adultsare obviously too. They're like on the
technology, the technology in your car, your phone at home, your thermostat,
like everything, your WiFi, yourcameras, you're you know, my
I have chickens and my chickens havea camera. Yeah, chickens, so

(20:41):
vain chickens what can we watch yesterdayback? Okay, they live streaming.
My chickens are making money. Mightget bigger and you can buy me some
feed Yeah. Uber eats like chickensin the back. Yeah. I guess

(21:06):
it's we don't know what the nexttechnology is. We can speculate, and
I think it's I think streaming isnot going away. Yeah, and I
we had we were taking took acourse one time. Leo is in this
class with me. The John Hartman. You know John Hartman. He's Phil
Hartman's brother, but he's an artistmanager. And he came in and he
talked about like the four branches ofthe music industry. He says, there's

(21:30):
um equipment, which is the moststable. People make money off equipment.
There's touring, which was hit bythe pandemic, but really pending an economical
collapse or a pandemic, right,it's pretty much going to be there.
Uh. There's music publishing and copyright. That's the federally incentivized branch. That's
also the most stable part of theindustry. And then the weakest leg was

(21:52):
the labels and marketing because you theyhad to figure out how to make money
off of free music when everyone waspirating, you know, and this is
two ten Napster. I mean,this is like he wasn't wrong, and
it seems what the answer was makeit more affordable. Yea. And what
we're seeing, at least in stuffI've talked about Dave Kraft, my composer

(22:15):
I work coord in Florida, ishe's like, what we're seeing now is
the true value of music. Youknow, before, when you're buying albums,
you could put artists on a privatejet. You could get them their
own jet. You led Zeppelin hada cocaine budget, all this stuff like,
and now we have so much varietyand it's so easy to release music,
and in order to afford it,the price has to come down.

(22:36):
And so that's why people like,oh, micropennies and it comes down and
it's like we should. Spotify needsto pay us a dollar a stream,
and it's like, are you insanea dollar a stream? Do you know
how much money that is? You'regoing to bankrupt the industry, Like it's
micropennies for a reason, and itsucks, but that's music. It does,
But it doesn't right because I rememberI remember when streaming first came out

(22:56):
and hearing everybody's saying there's no way, like no one's ever gonna make money
on streaming, Like the music businessis doomed. And the music business right
now is thriving more than ever.And I go back to my example of
back in the day, you boughta CD. Artists got paid once,
you know, then they get moneyfrom tourist whatever. Now you listen to
that same music on that CD,the artist gets paid every single time you

(23:21):
listen to it. I listen toit. You don't just have to have
a copy of it, like afirstical copy of it. And I think
I think that has just changed.Like you know, we saw a significant
spike in revenue and catalog music becauseyou know, and every time you change
configurations, that happens. So everyonegets like, oh I only have the
vinyl al out, I gotta goget the CD, I gotta get the

(23:41):
download and so now yeah, andevery time you know, you know this
too, Like you know, wejust ate lunch, there was music playing
in the restaurant, there's music playingin your car. Every time the song
is played publicly, someone is makingmoney and somehow they are generating money.
So man, we couldn't quarter conversationwith them because if I've tried publishing it,

(24:02):
the backgroud music got a copyright flag. I mean, yes, people
don't make you, which make itright, you're protecting the rights of the
individuals who created it. Yes,there's there is a value to that.
We're still trying to figure things out, like TikTok, etc. Sure,
and you know, when TikTok hitsits stealing, which it will, there
will be something else that will comebehind it. Yeah, but it is

(24:23):
interesting to kind of watch the evolutionof music, you know, um,
yeah, and it's kind of thefun part of the industry. Frank Frank
Zappa had an interesting perspective on it, and he said, like in the
early days, in the fifties andthe sixties, early days, but like
it was men in suits running thelabels, people who were businessmen. They

(24:44):
weren't musicians, so they didn't knowwhat was gonna sell, so they took
more chances. And as time wenton, it was more musicians and more
creative types, and we're taking lesschances because they're like, well, we
know what makes money. And itwas, like he said, it just
it got worse because musicians and creativetypes took over completely. Yeah, there
was less experimentation. That is.That is interesting and it's funny to hear

(25:07):
that because to me, you know, Zapple has always been relatively outspoken on
things, and it's an interesting sortof take. But it's like it almost
it almost feels like he's defending thatera of music, right, Yeah,
which a lot of people, dependingon who you ask, could say that
they took advantage of a lot ofartists that because there was a you know,

(25:30):
even now you know this, likenot everybody understands the music business.
Who's in the music business, youknow, like we have an artists developing
us all the time that are like, you know, I've never you know,
published a song or I've never likeregistered a song, and you're just
kind of like you don't even knowwhere your money should be coming from,
right, How do you know ifyou're actually getting paid for everything that you've

(25:52):
done. And you made a commentearlier about like I've never released a song,
and it's like, you know,there are time people who have released
music, but they have no idea, you know, and technology is sort
of enhanced that, right. Sure, I could literally take my iPhone,
scream in it, you know,record it, release it as a single.
I would be an artist, alabel, a writer, and a

(26:12):
publisher in a matter of minutes.Yeah, a music concred rights. Yeah.
But I don't need to know anythingabout the music business, you know,
to do that, you know what, Man, Like, we could
do that right now and release itand that would be like our art piece,
like we're showing your NF there yougo. That's how easy it is

(26:34):
to be a musician. And youknow, and the you know, the
perspective or opinion on what is musicand what is that? Right? You
know, it's it's up to thoseit's subjective. Yeah. But that's like
Zappa's comments like painful circle, becausenow we're at a time we're like,
okay, yeah, you know what, there's a lot of musicians running the
industry. There's a lot of peoplewho not many music degrees up there.

(26:57):
Funnily enough, I learned they're outbusiness people, but they know the industry,
they know music, they know whatsells. But now, because it
is so easy to record and release, Like I've garage band on my phone.
Man, right now, I coulddo amazing how many different programs that
are available to any right and it'sthere's just so much variety out there.

(27:18):
So now it doesn't matter really who'sin charge a businessman musician you know,
in that sense, so long asyou're not looking to get rich, you
can you can put your music outthere. No, no, Yeah,
And you know, there's a partof me that feels artists should never even
think about it from a financial perspective, and sure should always think about it
from a passion perspective, a creativeperspective, because if you're writing music to

(27:41):
make money, I feel like you'renot being true to yourself. And I
think a lot of people, youknow, Chase that that's that's that's an
interesting point you made, because there'speople who work in the industry where they
are literally writing music to make money, you know, the songwriters and people
writing jingles, et cetera. Andno, and I get that, and

(28:02):
that is an aspect, I guessmore from an artist's perspective. Um,
but they didn't learn to write musicto make money, to write music to
write Yeah. And and think aboutagain just going back to AI, like
your eye is gonna be program basedon what other people have created. Yeah,
So it's basically taking you know,one hundred years of people writing making

(28:23):
music and it's going to turn itinto a formula that and you know what,
who's going to take advantage of it? The labels are like in collection
production music, but you know what, the like I'd imagine eliminating all the
egos and there's a positive, there'sa computers coming in. Make sure it's
got some cocaine and a good placeand comfortable. I need m right.

(28:47):
It's always asking for ram over yourbudget. But yeah, oh you know
that's totally that is scary if that'sespecially like the production music world. Aim
Music took post for TV in twentyyears, Like, no one may work
for the music business like you know, and if you're not needing to go

(29:07):
out and find artists, you haveAI developing music? Like who am I
doing? Deals with? How manyhow many talent scouts are out there?
Really concerts looking for looking for musicis? It's funny because I don't feel like
it's it's concerts necessarily anymore. ButI feel like YouTube is a huge source
of A and R for people yea, yeah, because they do feel like

(29:30):
and we were talking about identifying music, you know, I remember when I
moved to LA, like I kindof did what a lot of people do
they're like, I can't you know, I can't work in a music business
in Columbus, Ohio. So I'mgonna go move to LA because that's where
all the dreams are sure, andthen you get here and it's a fight
and a struggle and a challenge.But you know, when artists reach out

(29:51):
to me and they're like, hey, I'm thinking about moving to LA,
I'm always like, don't buy it. Yeah, because for what you're doing,
like being a creative, Like ifyou're good, we will find you.
Like there's so many tools that wecan social media, you know,
YouTube, et cetera. I canfind you, and we will find you,
so you don't have to come hereand struggle, you know with the
BS part of it that generally burnspeople out and makes them not want to

(30:14):
be in the music business. Likestay where you are, you're right right,
developed your base at home. Likepeople figure that out. That's what
I tell like musicians at when Iwas in college, like how poly Pomona
like, Oh, we're gonna goto r UP in LA. I was
like, why why are you gonnago? You're gonna pay like three hundred
bucks, You're gonna pay more forno one to hear you. Yeah.
Yeah, and it's like Orange Countiesright here. You know, how many

(30:34):
cool venues are all over Orange County, go to Riverside, how many clubs
are Like there's places near where youlive. Yeah, you can be you.
The internet is everywhere. Yeah.Well and again, like I joke
about, you know, growing upand having to work Kinko's third shift and
make flyers to post and news lettersto send to people. You'd send out

(30:56):
one hundred and ninety nine would comeback because no one ever gave you their
real essure. You know. It'skind of like dating and asking for a
phone number. You're like, isthat is that really your numbers? But
it's like I feel like with themusic business, it's it's fascinating because you
know, people just don't realize,like really how good they have it.

(31:21):
But that's also part of the problem. Right we have all this technology,
all these tools, you know,social media, the Internet, et cetera.
But so does everybody. So whenI have artists that are like,
you know, I'm gonna go toInterscope and I'm gonna get a deal,
I'm I was like, don't dothat, Like, don't knock on their
door. You want them knocking onyour door. That's what the value is,
you know. Yeah, they ifyou go there and you become a
pain in their butt and they go, yeah, all right, we'll sign

(31:41):
you. It's not going to benefityou and it may even kill your career
if you sign a deal or noone cares about you. It's like yeah,
um, and it just happens waytoo often. You know, it's
it's a tough business, but youknow, I feel like it's it's definitely

(32:01):
doable. You just have to know. You to have a little bit of
knowledge and education about how it works, and you know what your role is
and what you want to actually getout of it. But it's also the
passion in the direction. You gotto know what you want to do and
you got to have the enthusiasm necessaryto do it. And they smile because
it's with anything any job. Yeah, like when kids grow up and you

(32:22):
go, oh, what do youwant to be when you grow up?
An astronaut? But then they youknow, they end up being a dentist.
Like why didn't they go be anastronaut? Just like teeth right?
No, I don't know for somereason, or you'll find like you oh,
I love this job. This isn'twhat I wanted to do, but
I love doing this. Yeah.But you know, we know people who
wanted to be the music business butidentified a different possibility or opportunity that actually

(32:45):
was more fruitful. Yeah, forthat time in your life. Yes,
and there it is. And that'sfor me. It's like, you know,
music is great, and I havekept myself in the music business for
this long, but I probably ifI ever really thought about it, I
could probably wouldn't have made more money. But I put the same energy as
as something else. Sure that wasn'tso glamorous and glitzy and whatnot. You

(33:07):
know, like I could have goneand work for an air conditioning company and
like top salesman. Who knows,you know. But you know, we
talked about this a lot about justlike, you know, what jobs people
have that actually make money, andit's you know, it's not always the
glamorous ones. And it really isthe top one percent that actually makes significant

(33:28):
money that's significant America. Yeah,So why do you why do you stay
in it? Foolish? I'm old? No, I mean I still love
it. I still love the process, I still love the challenge of it.
I still love working with people,and I think I remember literally packing
up my truck nineteen ninety seven sayingI was going to move to California the

(33:51):
next day, and everybody in Ohiowas like, la is gonna cheer you
up and spit you out, likeyou'll be back here within six months.
And it always sat in the backin my mind of like, no,
that's like I'm not you know alot of people say this, but it's
like I'm not like you, orI'm not who you think I am.
I think a lot of it stillfor me, and what drives me to
this day is that doubt that peoplehad that I could do this. So

(34:15):
I just keep swinging, keep swinging. Offensive you've done like you, like
you said, like you didn't.You got your job at Universal. You
stayed with the long enough, andthen you're like, I'm gonna start my
own company, and you started yourown company. And then that was the
California dream because it got bought outby a bigger company and I was like,
we just got Google. We're good, you know, But and then

(34:35):
that got bought by Universal and you'reat Universal again. Yeah, but yeah
that didn't end well. The titleis different and absolutely but but again,
that's that's the dedication, the commitmentof staying in the industry. Yeah,
you know. But it's funny becauseI used my my parents always as like
a measuring stick. And you know, when I tell my mom what I

(34:55):
do, she's like, oh,that's that's cute. I don't really understand
it. And I'm like, it'sa business, and she she's like,
did you have like a lemonade stand? Like you know, that's great?
Like they don't. They don't understandme. And I think I think music
business Like you know, I thinkparents of a different generation don't really believe
those are jobs. No, youknow what I mean saying I'm an actor.

(35:19):
They're sure you are, like everybodyis, you know. I like
Leo and I are talking about,like, um, music being a luxury,
and his argument is like, wellit isn't. It's a necessary part
of culture and it's a necessary partof what makes us human. And while
I don't disagree with that, Ithink I'm what I mean as luxury is
and it's like music does not.It's to the average person not working in

(35:44):
the industry, you need to feedyourself, you need to pay your bills,
and you need to keep that roofover your head. And music is
something that like flavors your experience withlife. But when it comes down to
a necessary survival and the way theeconomy is going, a lot of Americans
are struggling with it. It isabsolutely a luxury. I will agree with

(36:05):
you, But I will also saythat music is recession proof. So we
just went through a pandemic, right. Live music got hit hard like that,
There's no doubt about that, andthat was a shame. But recording
music did better than ever. Andwhy is that streaming? Well, we
had access what do you say,Like we had a captive audience, and

(36:25):
all people were doing consuming Like whenyou're happy, you listen to music.
When you're sad, you listen tomusic, right, you know, when
you want to go beat somebody up, you're listening to music when your girlfriend
breaks up with you, Like there'sa song that connects with you. So
it is a luxury, but itis also ingrained in us as like I
can almost guarantee that every single personlistens to some form of music at least

(36:52):
once a day, whether it's externallike a restaurant, right or so the
context of our conversation was like whetheror not music should be federally funded like
pop music. And you know,the National Endowment of the Arts is something
Max Allen and us we're talking aboutis you know, it funds classical music,
and it funds like orchestras, butit doesn't fund like pop music.

(37:13):
Like in Australia they fund pop music, they fund that stuff. And I
said, you Canada, really,So I was telling Leo, like if
you were going to because I guaranteethe government views pop music and all the
stuff as a luxury. Right.It's not boch it's not most art,
it's not Beethoven, it's it's it'spop music. You don't really need it.
When I said, you know what, though, it's viewed as a

(37:35):
luxury, and if you wanted tomake the case that it is necessary for
our survival, you need to leanon the fact that it's good for our
mental health. And you know what, You're right. The pandemic showed that
we needed it to help us getthrough how rough it was. I mean
it was not. It wasn't justmusic, right, it was TV shows
and movie entertainment. Yeah, entertainment, yes, because we needed something to

(37:58):
sort of preoccupy ourselves from thinking aboutyou know how being your neighboring getting COVID,
you know, like it was,it was. I mean, it's
interesting, it'll be it'll be fascinatingme to reflect back on this in like
twenty years and just be like,was it really that significant or do we
view it as like a blip onthe radar, you know, like nineteen
eighteen Spanish flu. I'm still kindof curious more about that, like how

(38:21):
it really affected the fabric of theculture, you know, and and for
us, you know, I thinkwhat it did show me is like we're
pretty resilient as a as a population. We have issues, yeah, like
and god knows, we may wipeourselves up at some point, but like
we kinda I don't want to saybreeze through the pandemic, but there was

(38:42):
some craziness, but for the mostpart, people hold it together. And
for the most part that's impressive.Hundreds of thousands died and I don't want
to be little that but any means, but I do feel like the three
hundred million people in this country.Yeah, like, you know, again,
it was it was a challenge.It was literally foreign to all of
us how to deal with it,and we did, you know, depend

(39:06):
on some guidance that maybe you canbelieve did work or did not work or
whatever. But I think for themost part, people were good about doing
the right things to try to minimizethe effects of COVID. Yeah, I'd
not to turn this into a politicalconversation, but I was talking actually to
a songwriter the other night and wewere just he was from the UK,

(39:29):
and we were talking about the US, and you know, we were talking
about vaccination, et cetera. Andhe's like, you know, we actually
needed people to say I'm going toget backs and for people to say I'm
not going to get backs, becauseif everybody got baxed, what if that
was a problem and everybody suffered,you know what I mean. It's kind
of like, you know, we'regonna say the world, everybody jump into

(39:52):
the ocean. If everybody literally jumpedinto the ocean and drowned, that could
have been the end of society whenthere could have been a glimmer of hope
or light or maybe be a bitof truth that people didn't understand. Perspective.
When he told me, I waslike, ah, like, you're
right, Like you can call itpolitics, you can call it whatever,
but we need those those people onboth sides of that. We need to

(40:13):
survive, need someone to be alitmust Like when you know, when you
know, when we can finally travelto the Moon or travel to Mars in
a regular basis. It's not agood idea to send to everybody see the
zoo to manage the nuclear power plan? Yeah, yeah, because what if
that experiment goes really wrong? Rightsideways everyone? Why is there one here?

(40:36):
Why didn't we leave somebody old stopfor breathing air is one? So
it's kind of fascinating just how itall kind of worked. But like I
said, like you know, whenyou're in it, you're just kind of
rolling with it, you know.But I'm curious to see what that sort
of post pandemic. Sure, youknow what happens out. Yeah, I
mean we're still it's still technically goingon too. But it's like, I

(41:00):
mean, you're vaccinated, I'm vaccinated. We're here in La which was like
an epicenter of it was scary fora lot of people, you know,
and we're just chat outside around otherpeople. I mean, we came but
that but that's also interesting too.You know. It's just like every territory
is gonna be a little bit differentwhen you live in a city this size.
You know, La to me,has had a much more fortunate situation

(41:22):
than like New York City. Youknow. Could you imagine being a single
individual in a studio apartment on thetwenty seventh floor of a high rise during
COVID you would want to jump everyday, like because you can't. You
couldn't really go downstairs to go outside. I could go from a supermarket,
so you kind of were just captiveand four walls. Man, that could

(41:44):
make you crazy. So I'm goinghad music and streaming and movies and TV
shows to keep us going. Imean, it's interesting because we figured out
a way throughout the work. Youknow, Uber eats all the delivery food
service has thrived. Like you know, businesses took a hit, other businesses
kind of popped up, you know, like to me and I've always kind
of said, like, there's there'san opportunity in everything, Like your worst

(42:07):
days, there's an opportunity. Yeah, they're somehow, some way something to
take away from it. There's asilver lining to every cloud. That's true.
It's a beautiful day, right andthe awful things happen, but you
know it's funny. You hear thatas a child, right, Like parents
will say that to you to keepyou positive. But the reality is sometimes
you need to hear as an adult. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you
have to just be reminded. Youneed to find a reason to you can.

(42:30):
You can still be miserable and upset, but you can also at the
same time finding a reason. Ido feel like as an adults it is
interesting because your perception of life isdifferent. I feel like like I have
I have challenging days or tough days, but I don't really have bad days.
Sure, you know what, I'msure because I just I feel like

(42:50):
I'm equipped enough to handle whatever itis, even if it's the client that
yells at me and screams at me. It's like job right, or I
just think it's your fault. Howdid you right? I just did?
How did you How did you farewith the pandemic? How did the industry

(43:12):
you and the industries you? See? It? Fair? I mean,
it didn't really affect my immediate responsibilities, so for me, like Zoom took
off. Yeah, you know,it's funny to think about that now because
before I always joke like everything fromthe Jetsons is starting to come to fruition
is like starting to come you know, become a reality. So we used

(43:34):
to use zoom like once a monthfor like a conference call, and now
we use it like a phone call. You So it's good because I think
it's sometimes like being in person andtalking to people like that personal connection relationship
is really helpful. When you don'thave that, Zoom is a kind of
good second, you know, placelike you still get to see people,
you see inflection, you see emotion, you kind of reading people. You

(44:00):
feel like you're you connect a littlebit um. So for me, like
I thought that was good. Youknow, I feel like a lot of
businesses were just trying to figure outwhat to do. Yeah, so you
know, in a in a sense, I felt a little bit more like
a guidance counselor at times where youknow, and the reality is everybody was

(44:20):
in the same boat. So whenpeople would come to me and be like
I'm dying over here, like whatdo I do? I'd be like,
you know what, the good thingis everybody's in the same boat. Like
it's not just you at a disadvantage. Everybody is, so you, along
with everybody else to figure out whatmakes sense for you, you know,
and I don't think a lot ofpeople would take a step back and go,
oh, okay, so I canstill record. Yeah, you can

(44:40):
still record. You might have todo it virtually, but you can still
do it. You know. Youcan't play live shows. You can live
stream. It's perfect, but it'ssomething they try. It's there. I
did an improv thing with some randompeople I'd never worked with before, and
it was I never did it inyeah, and I like I bombed a

(45:00):
couple areas of like it's awful feeling, but you know, it's like it
was still by and large, itwas funny. It's weird not having an
audience like where you can hear themreact. Oh my gosh. That's like
a performer's worst nightmare is dead airand that's all you get, you know,
so you gotta like find a wayto fill those gaps. One of

(45:21):
our artists on Dirty Hit did asort of live stream performance for Industry and
so everybody was on the call andyou can tell these little boxes and faces.
She's playing her heart out. Aftershe's done silence and she's like,
okay, so she tells a jokesilence. You know, people are laughing,

(45:42):
but she couldn't hear it. Shewas like, this is the most
challenging thing for me right now becauseI get nothing. But I don't know
if you guys are enjoying this ornot enjoying this. And I remember thinking,
like for an artist, that's hard. Did you have Do you ever
watch um last week Tonight with JohnAllan? So do you remember when first
transitioned into doing the virtual episode?I don't remember that because I could,

(46:04):
To be honest, I feel likeeven my television watching patterns changed. Sure,
Yeah, so he would you knowin the show when the first first
couple of seasons he would pause forlaughter, ye would laugh. So he
moves to the digital format and he'sstill pausing for laughter, but his dead
air. I remember watching them likethat's really awkward. And then like after

(46:27):
like a couple of weeks, Inoticed someone had talked talked to him.
You can't pause, and he justkept going and going and going. And
now they're live again and he's stillmaintained. They just go through and the
laugh was they had been inappropriate.We're gonna yeah. Just people had to
adapt, and artists and musicians hadto adapt. Yeah, I mean,
you know, there's a part ofme. That's like when you think about

(46:47):
your life and your career, youthink about everything that happens within it,
right, and whether it's politics changingpresidents, changing global war like pandemic,
like you know, there's always somethingthat affects your generation. And in a
weird way, it's almost like atest, right, like figuring out like
how can you I'm you don't haveto get existential, but it's like I

(47:10):
am a believer that It's like thisis just like a big an fine like
Earth, Like, hey, wecannot be the most the most inteligble former
life force like out there. There'sgot to be a higher level b It's
just like, you know, Ijust feel like we're trying to just figure
things out, you know, asa civilization as a whole. Yeah,
yeah, you know what I mean. You think about the technology that we

(47:32):
come up with here in the UnitedStates, why don't we take it and
we give it to like these thirdworld countries that struggle in our challenge?
You know, like why isn't everybodyon the same I don't know, you
know, it's just there's this constantevolution of figuring things out and people but
you know, I don't know Ifeel like music is in a good space
now because we're kind of like ina little bit of a revival post pandemic,

(47:54):
so like south By Southwest Indie Week, you know, all the stuff
music bass like are really coming back. So people are starting to come out,
starting to network again in person,have meetings. Yeah, it's it's
I think it's a good time tobe in a music business. But it's
still the same challenge that independent artistsand labels like you still have to figure

(48:16):
out that that process, right right, Yeah. How It's funny because when
I think of the music industry,I think of a purely capitalist system.
It's been based entirely on you know, what is selling supply and demand.
It's there's no socialist aspect to it. Nobody's getting any goodwill. No artists

(48:42):
are being promoted because they they're artists, you know, like you have to
show that you have something of valueto be on that market. And it's
weird because I don't feel any conflictabout that. You know, like it's
does your music make money? Cool? You can be part of this label,
you can do you have marketable skillat least the pop music world,

(49:04):
you know what I mean. Ialways try to Like I try to figure
out analogies in my life because likeI run. So it's like I run
marathons, but I don't run themvery fast. And I'm not you know,
I'm not setting lands. But Ilook at it and I go,
Okay, I'm a runner. I'msimilar to like an independent artist. Right,
if I want to be a betterrunner, I have to figure out

(49:25):
how it works. I have todo my research and I have to train.
I have to you know, takethe right supplements, like to do
all this same thing with independent artists. If you want to get better,
you have kind of look at theindustry and so, look, I can
do a lot of this stuff myself. I can do my own social media,
or I need to hire somebody,et cetera, et cetera. But
if you're you know, if youwant to be a competitive runner, you
have to hire a trainer. Yeah, right, you got to join a

(49:47):
team, right. If you wantto be a ultra competitive runner, you
have to invest money to do itright, right, and the challenges.
That's similar to the music business.It's like you have to put money in
to get money out. So you'renot gonna go win two hundred thousand dollars
in a race. If you don'tinvest one hundred thousand dollars and trainer or

(50:08):
team, it's going to help youget there. It's the same thing with
the music that. Yeah, ifyou sit back and go, wow,
why am I not making money?That's probably why you know you're not doing
anything right. The internet is freefor the most part. Social media is
free, like all these marketing toolsare there. You can record on your
phone like you have zero excuses,honestly, yeah, And how serious do

(50:31):
you want to be about it?You know? And then that's my sort
of take on it. I thinkwhat you the way you described it is
true. But you know, everyyear there's an artist that is no longer
that top one percent. Somebody elseis going to replace them, right,
you know. It just doesn't golike there's no such thing as a viral
moment. The viral moments take tenyears. Yeah, yeah, everyone talks

(50:53):
about it. I want them togo viral. Well, keep working at
it and it will go viral,right, right, So you need to
enough attention on you already, yeahfor it to be like, oh he
did some really cool this time,and you know, and I just go
back to like you taking me thirtyyears in the music business to get to
a senior vice president level. Howmany artists have put thirty years into it?

(51:13):
It's a good point. How manyactors put thirty years into it?
You know, there are some actorsthat don't find a real good role until
they're in they're older, elder years. You know. It's like, so,
if you're really passionate about it,this is your job, you will
do it forever. Yeah, ifyou're just doing it to make money,
you know, will probably struggle ayear because you're frustrating thing, didn't you

(51:35):
didn't do it? And then you'regonna bail. That's funny because like,
like this show, we're not makingany money off of this, but you
love doing it. We've been offfor three years. We made twelve dollars.
I love it, right, andyou know what, like I put
so much of my own money intoit. But but is it because you
want to make money? No,it's it's part of like, Okay,
there's selfish reasons for the show,and most of it is it's fun.

(51:58):
Yeah. I enjoy talking and interviewingpeople. I like having artists on and
I like the attention kind of youknow, but it's like I don't want
to show or it's like we havewe have our listening episodes where artists submit
songs for us to listen to,and the rule of the game is nothing
but positive feedback. You know,we're not here to bring down independent artists.

(52:21):
There's something great about this song,and let's talk about what makes this
song great. This artist put workinto it. And our last artists,
the last guy we had on DonnieBrandon Hart. Donnie Hart is at the
title of the episode, but hewas talking about like he we've known him
for years, Leo and Donnie andLeo Brandon, I've been friends for a
long time. Leo and Brandon goway back and call it like friend.

(52:44):
Like it's becoming clear we're just burningthrough our networks. People we know.
A few, people like Max thinkwas one of the first, like people
we've never met before we have onthe show. But he was talking about
like when we're talking about releasing music, you know, he's like, I
know how to record an album,I know how to mix, I how
to master. I never do allthis stuff, and I did all this

(53:04):
and his album is fantastic. It'scalled Pink Cloud. So I'm going to
promote it, because of course Iam. But he was like the hardest
part that he had to learn asa solo artist now is the marketing.
He's like, no one will listento it if you don't talk about it.
And that's like, you're right,these things have to be But you
just fulfilled his mission exactly. Youjust talked about it. Yeah. But

(53:27):
it's worth that's the thing too.His work is worth promoting. Yeah.
And the reasons why you did itor didn't do it could have been because
your friend with them. It couldhave been because you really do like the
music, yeah, or it couldbe you know that he was just I
don't make this to sound negative,but it's like he was the loudest one
in the room, right, Likehe was the one that was talking about

(53:49):
his music. Sure, you can'tpromote people that you don't know about,
right, you know. And that'swhy I always go back to I have
independent labels that are like, howcan my songs aren't our playlists? And
I'm like, well, what doyou like? How are you promoting it?
I like, what kind of moneyare you investing? Well, we're
not. That's that's why that's right, you know what I mean, like
and even for you doing this,which I like, I tickle pink,

(54:09):
you're doing this because I just thinkit's great. But my whole feeling is
if you do this for three episodes, you're like, it's not really working
out. Yeah, it's not gonnawork out. If you do this for
ten years and you have one hundredepisodes, it's eventually going to grow,
sure because people want to hear eventhe other person you're you're talking to or
trying rum and eventually it's going tobe something that people are just you know,

(54:30):
Joe Rogan, it didn't. Hehas a whole career ahead of him
or behind him if you will,before his podcast, Yeah what I mean,
Yeah, it wasn't like it wasyou see fear factor. Yeah,
it's something new like he had alreadybuilt like a following, and that that's
what you have to do, Like, yeah, you have to be visible
enough that people know who you arefor something. And that's the thing too.

(54:52):
Like I was, I'll be honest, I was like nervous about interviewing
you because I did not want youto feel like I was wasting your time,
do you know what I mean?But we're not. But it's funny
that you say that, And nowI'm gonna be honest with you, like
I wanted to do this to behonest, because I need to do more
of it. Okay, I don'tlike talking interview interview type situations, like

(55:16):
I get uncomfortable and nervous, andyou know, my company wants me to
be on bigger panels and all thiskind of stuff, and I'm always insecure
about what I know in the business, and i always feel like I'm going
to be put on a stage witha bright light and a loud mike and
I'm not going to know the answerand I'm going to freak out and what
I what I might and what I'velearned, Yeah I might, But what

(55:38):
I've learned is no one knows everything, generally, not these types of interviews.
But when you get on panels,nobody says anything that's that groundbreaking that
you're just like, WHOA, Ihave no idea how to respond to that.
You know, a lot of timesyou can just go yeah, I
agree with that, but it's likethe last the last couple of panels I

(55:58):
was on, I was like,like, no one actually said anything,
sure, you know, and youjust kind of walk away from it going
what was that? Yeah? Whatwhat did what did we learn? And
then I've also seen um it wasa music Tectonics event and I just promoted
them. But it's like I wentand watched the panel on NFTs and Royalties.
Oh yeah, and there was acompany I will not name them,

(56:22):
but they had no idea what theywere talking about, and everybody in the
room was looking at each other likehow did these guys get on this panel?
Like don't they vet the people they'reputting on the panel? And it's
so sometimes it's not it's a youknow, sometimes it's just a mismatch,
right oh man. So yeah,there's some insecurity there, and I just
think it's good. Sometimes you justsaid and just talk about music, and

(56:44):
I think it's the comfort. It'sthe company too, Like when I asked
you if you wanted to be onthis, You're like it has to be
in person. Yeah, I'm likecool with that. It was only gonna
be me. Well yeah yeah,but and that's why I like, you
know, even I wasn't sure ifyou're gonna bring somebody else, But that
like, to me, it's likeit's awkward sometimes doing it over like zoom
or something like that. Like Iwas rather just sit and like you said,

(57:05):
it's almost like a fireside chat.You edit it, you take whatever
you need to take out, we'lljust talk. We'll have you on again.
Yeah, if you want, youknow, I'm gonna I'm gonna put.
I've been getting better about pushing andpromoting and Leo kind of helps on
that too, But like, I'mnot even worried about that. Like,
I think what's fun for me isthat you're doing it. You also you
interview Max, which I truly appreciatebecause I think Max has a story to

(57:25):
tell and I feel like he's ontosomething that's kind of really cool. Um,
and he loved it, you know. And it's like when you start
interviewing people again who are passionate aboutsomething or who've been in the business for
a long time, like people willwant to listen. Yeah. I was
on a CCC panel and and Ijust got random people afterwards like reaching out
to me, going, hey,what you said? It was really great.

(57:46):
I was like I was last,and I had like two seconds to
say what I was doing. Butyou know, people just appreciate the insight
and I you know, you talkabout the music business all the time,
you don't realize that some people justhaven't heard you say some of these things
before, or some people don't understandwhat a distributor does, or you know,
what our role is supposed to be, right, I think a lot

(58:07):
of people think we are a recordlabel, which we are not sure and
that's a big difference the services thatwe offer. There's a branch of the
parent company that is a record label, but that's not that's not department you
are, you know. But again, at the end of the day,
it's all about hustle. It's it'shustle for the artist, it's hustle for
the songwriter, it's hustle for you, it's hustle for me. Yeah,

(58:28):
Like I could easily just sit backand have a very lax of days ago
life at my job, but Iwouldn't go anywhere, you know, I
wouldn't feel like I was being accomplished. So that's good, and that's how
you kind of want to that's whatyou want out of it, to feel
like you want to be satisfied,like you want to feel like you're fulfilled.
And then to take it back tothe beginning when you said, you

(58:51):
know, we were talking about success, like you know, you want to
be successful, Like that's different toevery person. Sure, yeah, r
I'm like, well, there's howI measure. I don't know, you
know, I think about all thetime and I'm I always say to myself,
like, I want to have enoughmoney to forget about money, Like
I don't want to have to worryabout bills or paying my house. I

(59:12):
don't. I don't want a bighouse. I just I just want a
house, yeah, you know,and I want to I want to be
at afford it. You know.I'm not out there going like, oh,
I need to get a bigger house, because that's that's the illusion or
the image I want to create.It's like I live in a very small,
modest house. But it's Mike,right, and I'm happy about that,
right and my wife do you know? The worst part about me in

(59:37):
the music industry now, I don'tlike it, but it's part of our
business is we can look at analyticsimmediately, you know, and I can
say, oh, you're the bestthing in the world. You get two
followers like what do you gonna doabout that? You know something? Yeah?
Well, and and my point isit's just like, you know,
and that's what it's like. Iwant to say that we always listen to

(59:59):
music and we always identify like thebest talented artists, But I think talent
is objective. Um, but youcan sit there and go this independent artist
actually went out there and hustled themselvesand got these numbers and these analytics like
they did it without us. Thoseare the people we want to work.
But yeah, so when you seethese younger, smaller artists that are like
ab Stock, like you know,I need help, it's like figured out,

(01:00:22):
You figured out, and then we'llcome help you. That will make
you yea worth marketing. And thephrase that we use a lot is gassing
on a fire, Like we arethe gassing on the fire, but we
have to have that fire. Ifwe don't have that fire, it doesn't
work. It's interesting. Yeah,we're not. Our job as a distributors
not to break bands, to breakartists. Yeah right, exactly, Steve.

(01:00:46):
But you know, but a lotof times you can listen to a
song and just be like, yeah, it sounds good, but it sounds
like right, you know, Likethat's that's the challenge is just we consume
so much music that it's just thelines are getting blurry. And you're just
like everything kind of sounds insane.You know, it was a little bit
different, you know, twenty thirtyyears ago, when it's like you knew

(01:01:09):
every single band in the top forty. Now people send me links and I'm
like, who is this? AndI go eight hundred million streams, like
I don't know who this is becausethe people are figuring it out. Yeah,
they're doing it themselves. Well,it's niche too, It's like that.
It's it's the Samorgan spoard. Infact, there's so much variety and
we have access to so much,and we are listening to music all the

(01:01:32):
time that you could listen to likeeight different genres in two hours from artists
that have nothing to do with eachother. And people's like identities used to
be like and still our kind ofBut it makes me think like, oh,
I was a metal head and Ilistened to his metal in high school
and then they carry that their wholeflipping lives the way and it's like,

(01:01:52):
but try do you like I don'tknow classical music. I hate classical music.
Have you heard good classical music?No, it's suck. Your opinion
means nothing. Well, you know, and that's a great point like,
I mean, I I even whensongwriters, when I touch songwriters, it's
like, well my genre is I'mlike, don't, I don't know.
I don't want to know your genre. Just do you know, let me
hear your songs. Like it goesback to like Dolly Parton writing I Will

(01:02:15):
Always Love You that Whitney Houston madefamous The Whole Thing's Whitney wrote that whit
he didn't write anything, yeah,you know, and it was a song
by Dolly. And a good songwill transcend all genres. You know.
You can sing a country version ofa pop version of it, a metal
version of it, like it's stillthe same song, you know. Or
I think a good example too isLeonard Cohen's Hallelujah. His version was on

(01:02:39):
the B side of some random Itwas like, you know the story how
that song got fact, I don'tso when he it took him like three
years to write that song. Yeah, and he had like he had to
I forget who it was. Buthe had this friend who was like,
hey, dude, I hear you'reworking on this song, Like, send
send me some pages. And hesent him twelve pages of lyrics. Well,
and the guy was like what isthis, So he like cut it

(01:03:00):
down. He took like six orwhatever, in six six verses, and
then he recorded a cover of thissong. Leonard Cohen had never even recorded
it, and it ended up onthis B side of some album that wasn't
even Leonard Cohen playing it. Andso Jeff Buckley was going through his buddy's
record shop and he found the recordand he saw on the back, oh,

(01:03:22):
Leonard Cohen, like some B sideof his cover, and he listened
to it, and so then JeffBuckley covered it and that's the version that
went famous. And then Leonard Cohenwas like, oh, shoot, which
is funny because it's Leonard Cohen right. Well, but Cohen like he's still
a prolific writer, but he wasalways kind of under the surface, ye
like. And that's really a goodexample of saying, like what was what

(01:03:43):
was successful Leonard Cohen? He didn'tsell out, like, he didn't try
to get people to like him.He just did what he did. But
he was he was not a musicianfirst. He was a poet. And
his friends are like pressured him torecord his music. Anything happened to John
Bryan, John Priyan was a songwriter. He did not want to perform live
in this and obviously now like artiststhat are like I don't want to be
an artialist with a songwriter, andI think there's value in that even identifying

(01:04:08):
that. But I love that storyabout Hallelujah because to me, you hear
the Jeff Buckley version and you're justlike, oh my god, like it's
an angel singing, you know,in a sense. And then when you
go back and listen to Leonard Cohen, like it's a very rough, like
but emotional and like justifferent version.Yeah, you know what I mean.

(01:04:29):
And it's but but I feel likeif you didn't have the Jeff Buckley version,
you wouldn't identify the talent or thevalue of Leonard clu version, right,
And it's like going backward saying theJeff Flip Buckley version is better,
to which I would agree, well, and it's it's hard to say about
taking anything but away from Yeah,yeah for me, because I feel like
they all hold a value. Sure, I love the story of it because

(01:04:55):
you know, and I always saythat to other artists too. I'm like,
man, somebody might cover your songand might take off. Like it's
all about visibility, it's all aboutright exactly. That guy knows that,
you know, having a lot ofLatin artists, like it's so difficult to
get them to do like simple thingslike registering songs and copyrette office and you

(01:05:17):
know, and there's a lot ofmoney lost. You know, so many
artists don't know their rights well.And that's why I go back to It's
like like if I said to myself, I'm gonna be a race car driver,
I would learn like the business aroundrace car driving, right, Like
you just want to understand that bus. Sure. Sure, I feel like
music needs to be the same way. So if you just wrote a song

(01:05:38):
and you're like the cares like I'mgonna put it out, you know,
it's like you have to understand thebusiness around it. And I think with
what I always liked about Regional Mexicanin particular is they kind of broke the
rules a bit and it worked,but I don't think they understood the repercussion
of the rules they broke. Sothey do they would do like a lot
of non exclusive pub agreements. Surethat's it's great for one or two songs

(01:06:00):
or whatever, but when you doa non exclusive public agreement for like every
one of your songs. Who's managingall of that administration of those twenty five
other administrators have so many writers thatare like, I'm not getting paid signed
the agreement. Go go back tothem and say, why aren't you paying
me? Yeah, and you know, and again in the regional Mexican world,

(01:06:23):
a lot of the publishers thought thatall they had to do with signed
agreement and that they would collect theirright their pro share, their performing right
share, like directly and that wasit. They didn't know they had to
actually pass through like streaming mechanicals andgoals are syncing, so a lot of
money, you know, like I'mworking with the clan right now, thirty
years old. They never paid outany of the mechanicals. They just thought

(01:06:46):
they were supposed to just get theirBMI asked, keptasy writers share and that's
it. And it's like, okay, here we go. That's something I'm
gonna fall victim too, because likeI know the pro side pretty well,
but all that other stuff. Iwas like, that's but it's like the
MLC, you know what I mean, like the very least register with your
PRRO and the MLC like yeah,that well, you know, but the

(01:07:09):
flip side of that too is youknow, the publishing business in the United
States is so much different than therest of the world. Yeah, in
real or territory, there's one societythat you just kind of had to affiliate
with and they'll collect it all here. Because we like to be different about
everything. It's like we have multiplecompanies that yeah, I mean you technically
four pros. You have HFA ofmusic reports that you should register with.

(01:07:32):
Now you have the MLC, whichis great, but the MLC only collect
streaming mechanicals. They don't collect digitaldownloads, so the label is still responsible
for that. Everyone depends on theirdistributors to handle the mechanical licensing of the
digital download. Nobody wants to doit because it doesn't make the same money.
Hell of a lot of work,and most independent publishers don't even understand
the process. So you've you've startedmultiple companies, yes, and they all

(01:07:58):
kind of tackle this in some wayyeah, some yes. So it's the
music business from four different angles,you will. Let's let's this is a
good sick. Let's discuss. Let'sdiscuss. Sure, Okay, Well,
one of the businesses that I haveis because of our experience of history,
like working in royalties. We knowthat's a responsibility that lacks development like development,

(01:08:21):
So we started a company called Paction, which is the art of an
agreement, which basically takes a contract. It's a contract asset management software where
you can negotiate in draft contact contractsand agreements for independence. We have a
legal advisory board, so all thelanguage is vetted, but you can do
it digitally, and then once yousign digitally, it's actually save digitally.

(01:08:45):
One of the other benefits is,like you know, a lot of major
labels, they have agreements for differentperiods of time, certain albums that are
affiliated. We can attach those assetsto the agreement, and we're also creating
from that perspective, we're creating asmall art contract out of these contracts.
Now, an NFT is a nonfuncible token, but it's it's all it's

(01:09:06):
been marketed lately as this piece ofartwork and an exclusive audio file monkey right
whatever. But the reality is isa recording digital recording contract that's a smart
contract is an NFT. So ouridea is actually creating these these true NFTs.
And then what that does once you'vecreated that is you can actually expedite

(01:09:29):
royalties by paying people on the blockchain. So okay, you know, I
feel like we're like five years aheadright now, Like no one's going to
do that today, but they're goingto eventually get there. So we're kind
of ahead of the game, Ithink on that. Um, so that's
fine. We're working with a biggerconsulting company to kind of finesse that idea.
Then there's The Best Music Company,which is a publishing administration company.

(01:09:55):
We have a lot of good clients, if I should say them or not.
Um, yeah, so publishing adminfor the Best Music Company. That's
a fun company for us. Wehave Royalty Partners, which is a third
party royalty downstream royalty accounting service companybecause people still do not like doing royalties
themselves, so there's value there that'sfair. And then I have my own

(01:10:18):
label called UVT Entertainment, which ismore just like a little vanity thing that
I do for friends. But it'sstarting to pick up, like we're starting
to find or have artists actually reachout to us like, hey, can
you put up my music at Soyou know it's fun. I want to
set up your own podcast. Wellyeah, that's funny. My wife,
it's like you need to do apodcast, and I'm always like I'm not

(01:10:40):
interested, Like it just seems ina lot of work, like I like
doing this, sure, but Idon't like organizing. Okay, that's fair,
That's totally fair. Yeah. Yeah, but it is good because I
do think when you have your ownbusiness. One thing I always said about
having my own label, it's likeit gives you a perspective of the client.
So at Ingrews, which is wheremy labels sits, um, I

(01:11:01):
like no one helps me, like, you know, like one of our
tier one labels, um, SoI have to figure stuff out myself.
So it gives me a good perspectiveof how a good number of our clients
struggle on the day to day orI have a question, how to find
the answer to that question? Youknow a lot of times I can just
easily ask a colleague, but forthem, they don't know. So they

(01:11:23):
send a general email to our youknow, music support team and you know,
and and it just helps me kindof trying to figure out how to
make those processes a little bit moreefficient. Right. So it's like here
you have all this experience, youhave the background, and now you're like
that basically the head of your ownlabel now and all those little dark areas

(01:11:43):
you didn't you didn't see. You'relike, oh, is my flash like
big enough to light up this areathrough? And it's to me, it's
all about like connecting dots, whetherit's networking and human dots or its process
and deficiency process. You know,like the the bigger music industry is not
known for like massive technology advancements.It's usually an independent that comes up with

(01:12:09):
the idea and then the major goes, oh, thank you, that's right,
you know. So for us,it's always like, well, if
you have an idea, and youknow, our companies always tell us like,
you know, we love entrepreneurial ofcolleagues, and it's like, do
you really, because you know thisis what's going to happen. We're gonna
go outside and they should and theyshould support it because it takes someone thinking

(01:12:30):
outside of the box, which generallya major label infrastructure doesn't really want you
to do. They want you inthe box, yeah, because that's they
want you to sit in your seatfrom nine to six and do your job.
But you know, just sort offind new technology or finding ways of
doing then you have to you haveto challenge that. So that's the way
we do it. We do iton an independent perspective and just be like,

(01:12:54):
look, we'll start these businesses,these companies, and if they work,
then we'll take them back and say, look, this is this interest
you. Yeah. So I youknow, it's hard because you have what
you consider sort of conflict of interest, but it's not. We don't do
it to challenge our companies to takebusiness away from them. It's to figure

(01:13:15):
out solutions that we can bring backto them. Okay, I see,
you know that's what you're gonna say. That's why I see you don't get
in trouble put it out. I'mdoing independent research, right, It's assume
it's my own internship. And Ithink myself credic because I actually sounded pretty
good son to Roll. There's thatgroundbreaking about respond to it, you know,

(01:13:38):
But I mean I do think there'struth to it. I really do,
because again, like you have ajob from nine to five, and
during that job, you're not reallypushed to come up with better ways of
doing things. It's kind of likejust do the job, sure, Sure,
And I feel like you you know, and that's why it's like probably
autom mechanics they have their own carsbecause they want to try different stuff on
that, you know, to seewhat works before they go. And that's

(01:13:59):
somebody else's You're not going to usethe dudes like Cutson Hornet that they brought
in. It's like, oh,I won't know how this new hydraulic system
would work in nineteen forties classics youknow, yeah, I mean put a
semi truck horn in a BW Beetlelike or it could be cool. I

(01:14:23):
was when I worked at the autobody shop. We had a client billionaire,
you know how like if you're poor, you're a hoarder. If you're
rich, you're eccentric. Right.This guy collected cars and like he collected,
he had warehouses filled with like classiccars and just cars. You're like,
what the fuck is this? Andso we went in because we had

(01:14:44):
to go move them from one warehouseto another. It was really cool that
it's to drive some pretty as faras man. But we were looking at
the engines and I was not amechanic. I would just there to move
cars and whatever, charge batteries.And one of our mechanics opens up the
the Chevy suburban because I have aChevy suburban and he looks in and he
goes, this is not a suburbanengine. Yea. And the guy's like,

(01:15:06):
yeah, no it's not. Orhis man and his assistant was there.
She goes nope, and he goes, this engine it's illegal to be
in. This car is from atotally different vehicle. There was no like
insurance, no registration on this car. I mean, he just collected weird
shit. And it's like, wegotta be careful how he moved this one,
you know, like veh pulled over. I have a friend who put
an outboard what do you call it, like a racing boat engine in his

(01:15:32):
sub what? And I was like, I can you do that? And
he was like yeah, it's thesame size. I had to do some
modifications, but I was like,that's Fascinat's insane. Yeah, just to
know like they functioned the same soillegal though, yeah, of course the
emission standards. But that was oneof those things where I was like,

(01:15:53):
oh, like it just made methink, like and it's funny because he
was a machinist for a Fisher orif you hear what they call it,
but it's like fisher fisher price.No, No, it's like Fisher dollies
and stands like they do. Theydo basically they work for the entertainment industry,
creating like camera dollies and stuff,and it's all like very like um

(01:16:15):
had driven like everything is a customjob, dada the purposes. So I
was like, oh, that's interesting, Like you kind of have to think
out of the box in that scenario. Yeah, I was so impressed with
him. That's pretty cool. YeahI didn't know that. Again, you
can do that, you know,but you wouldn't know it until you tried,
right, So you kind of hadto have the world fall to be
like huh kind of same size,like makes sense, good word. It's

(01:16:40):
like it just depends on what youwant out of life, you know,
like kind of help steer you inthe direction of how you do things.
You know, Like you know,if just hear you talking about this billionaire,
like, gosh, I think aboutit, man, it would be
great to be a billionaire. ButI'm not one. Um odds are I
probably won't be one, but I'llkeep trying. You know. It's not
all it's a dregue, yeah,you know, but but my point is

(01:17:02):
I think a lot of people,you know, and I just even thinking
about like the friends I had inOhio that were like, you're gonna get
cheat up and spit out in LaLike they just didn't have the belief themselves
that they could do it. That'sfunny though, because they're not wrong.
That's part of it. It's gettingchewed out and yeah, and like everybody's

(01:17:25):
different, but but you're right,Like, you know, I had this
conversation actually where my trainer is,yeah, and we were just saying,
like if everything were easy, youreally wouldn't learn anything, and you really
wouldn't have the motivation to like overcomeanything. So you know, it's gonna
sound like too much personal information,but I take hold showers everything God Steve.

(01:17:45):
And I read an article, right, I know, And I read
an article and they said, youknow, studies have shown that it it.
It helps you to do that becauseit creates a stressful moment for you.
And if you do it early inthe morning, it's sort of like
if I can endure this, likeI can endure the rest of the day.
You know. It's not exactly likethat, but it's the idea of

(01:18:10):
preparing your body for stressful situation.I guess I gotta start trying to take
cold showers in the morning. It'shard, man, I'll tell you what.
Like the first couple times I waslike, oh no, oh no,
like this is not gonna work.I'll start with not as hot as
I like it. Well, youknow, right exactly. But it's funny
because I did. You might goto at my office, like during the

(01:18:30):
COVID they shut it down and thenwhen they opened it up, no one
was using it. So I thinkthey were like, we don't need the
water heater on, like we'll justturn it off, like it was coming
from like the bottom of the ocean. I swear to god, I was
like, what like it, likeis this ice? Like what is happening?
And then they recently fixed it andI was like, why is this
warm? Like how did I needit colder? It's colder, Yeah,

(01:18:54):
showers ain't colder. And I waslike, but but but I think in
that regard, though, I've groomedmyself to be prepared for stressful, for
that situation, you know, Andyou know, I think I said earlier
too. It's just like it's allhow you deal with those stressful situations.
Like you're gonna have difficult people,you're gonna make mistakes, but you gotta

(01:19:15):
keep moving. I want to ask, and we let's sleep a wind down
here. But like, what's thehardest lesson you had to learn in your
experience with the industry? Um thatit's not about me? Yeah, because
like I said, you know,I started out in the mail room at
BMG UM and I didn't carried itat any ego. But I was always

(01:19:40):
like, two years, gonna geta new job. It's gonna be a
better job. But I did thatfor like ten years, and then after
a while, I'm like tired,Like it's like find a job. But
it's like, you know, youcan prepare yourself all day long, every
day and just maybe not get theopportunity that you think you're gonna get.
So I think sometimes times the waiting, the patience to sit there and go,

(01:20:02):
I'm gonna work thirty years in thisbusiness and I'm gonna be fine with
the process doing it. It's easyto say now because I've done it.
Yeah, But if you would askme twenty years ago, would have been
like, she sucks about it.But you know, if I could give
advice to my old old me,it's like, just be patient and just

(01:20:24):
learn as much as you can.Be cool to people and just you know,
take a day by day and hard. Yeah. Man, I'm telling
you it's such a simple like ethic, but it's like it just it rings
so true. You know. Ihave people work that just are difficult because
I just feel like they feel likeit's necessary to be difficult. But I

(01:20:45):
always look at them and go,it's not me, it's you. You
know, like you're being challenging becauseyou're you've got an insecurity about something,
or you don't feel good about something, or somebody's hurt or not feeling well,
so they're gonna take it out oneverybody else. A good rational,
mature person will just go, yeah, I don't, I don't, I
don't agree with you, but youknow, maybe we come up with a

(01:21:05):
solution together and figure it out.Yeah, at the very least, Okay,
how can we fix this? Whatare we working on? You know?
And that's my thing. It's justlike there's no there's just no reason
to get crazy about anything, youknow, And I think the most level
headed people I know are honestly themost successful people I know. So it's

(01:21:30):
um, it's it's trying to likemaintain a positive attitude at work. It's
like it takes a real walking thatfine line between your personal issues and your
professional issues. And like when Iwas working for nursing, all the nursing
faculty, they were always like buttingheads. And that's someone who's like I
was the front desk person song.You see all of that. You just

(01:21:54):
see it and you hear it andyou know what's going on. And I've
every day and to this day,even I'm a coordinator for this new department,
it's a beautiful day. How arewe doing today? Those people?
To day, I just have thisattitude because I'm like I feel good and
even if it's a bad day,I still feel good, you know,
and I'm at work and it's like, how are you someone? How are
you so positive? I was like, it's a it's a job. I'm

(01:22:16):
not let losing sleep over this.But that is contagious, right, Yeah,
I do feel like because I was, as I was talking earlier,
like I was thinking about people likethat, Like there are some people And
Jed made a comment to me theother day because whenever I go into the
office, as soon as I walkand I'm like wandering everybody, and I'll
say it to every single person onthe way to my office and one woman

(01:22:38):
before, like right when Kovid kickedin, she's like, I miss you,
yea, like saying good morning toeverybody, you know. And it's
a little things like that where you'relike, oh, like people actually listen
to me, Like I was justdoing what I do. But it does
rub off, and it's it's that'sbeen my approach and this approach of work
that's worked is like, there's goingto be disagreeable people wherever you go.

(01:22:59):
And it's also I should say itis okay to be disagreeable yourself. If
you feel like someone's going to takeadvantage of you, it's okay to say
no. But like there's someone oncampus who has been giving students a hard
time about something they need to getdone, and it's like, okay,
this person's like consistently getting frustrated withthe students in my program. Yeah,
I'm gonna call them. I wantto call them, not mean. I'm

(01:23:19):
not vindictive, I'm polite and I'mhappy and my goals. I want you
to laugh, I want you tohear we're warm over here. I want
to work with you and I wantyou to work with me, you know,
And it's it's also maintaining restoring goodwilland then maintaining it. And it's
even just simple as saying dumb thingson the phone, like I call it
an advisor at school there, toy, Hey, how are you doing?
Rachel's you like Kurt? It's yourbest friend Kurt up and you know military

(01:23:42):
science. What's happening? If youlaughing? You know, like it's doesn't
even have to be serious and shewill remember you. Ye. Do you
feel like you get that from yoursort of religious upbringing or a connection?
No, No, I think it'snot religious for me. It's like faith,

(01:24:05):
like faith, yeah, my faitheither way, No, it comes
from I guess just I always wantedto be like someone who had a positive
interaction with people or had a positiveimpact and if at least surface level and

(01:24:30):
things happen and I'm I'm I'm verynaive and my friendliness sometimes like I have
been taken advantage of. But likethere have been times where I said something
or I've done something that hurt anotherperson, whether or not I'm meant to
or I thought it was what Isaid was funny and it was just hurtful,
and I just like over time,like we were talking about this coworker

(01:24:53):
before and like how I felt thatnight at the concerts. It is different,
But in my heart, I've alwaysfelt like I could have been nice,
compassionate. I could have been akinder person, and I can't.
You know, I have friends orwas like I was not a good friend
to this person, and it's likeI could call them sure an apolitic Hayman
when I was really awful fifteen yearsago, and they'd be like, oh,

(01:25:14):
yeah, I guess you're good,you know, or whatever. But
it's like, going forward, maybeI can give people the grace that I
can give to myself. So maybeit is spiritual because I think it is
grace. I think they are lessons. It's funny because I probably wasn't always
this way either, And I wasgoing to ask you just kind of about
your upbringing. But I had aguy that I worked at the Universal first

(01:25:40):
time and he it wasn't my fault, but the woman who hired me was
fired like three days later, soeveryone kind of looked at me, is
like, who are you, Like, you know, you must have been
a bad judgment because you know,the lady got fired. But everybody was
really mean to me Universal because everyonethought the jobs should have been hired internally

(01:26:00):
and they hired externally, so Icouldn't walked in and I was like,
what is happening? And it wascrazy, but I this one guy in
particular, we went by Bill backthen, was just like I could not
break through to that guy at allhere. And I would try every day.
I'd walk in and sit down andbe like, are we gonna be
good today, like like, let'sjust work through this one problem. You

(01:26:21):
don't have to be nice to me, and he would just be like huck,
like you know, and like wewould get through it, you know.
Ten years later he reaches out tome and he goes and I don't
know what happened in his life,but he goes, I just wanted to
reach out to you and say howsorry I am for treating you the way

(01:26:44):
that I treated you when you wereat Universal, and he was like,
I was in a different time inmy life, like I was going through
these challenges, but I took itspecifically out on you, and I wanted
that job. You got the job, and I was just like okay,
like thanks man, and he waslike and it actually came up again because
he was working for another business managementfirm and a guy that I mentored a

(01:27:09):
while ago ended up working with him, and my name came up and he
just said Steve was the nicest guyever that I worked with, and he's
he's he just said all these positivethings, and I was like, what,
like what happened? You know?But I was so grateful for that
because I tried not to let itbother me. I mean, I ended

(01:27:30):
up obviously leaving that job, butI just in that moment, I was
like, why, Like how doeseverybody hate me? Like I didn't do
anything, Like I just got here, Like this is ridiculous. And it
was just a nice little sort ofreward, you know, later, to
to kind of give you faith backin humanity that people really are bad people.
They just have stuff, you know, they're dealing with stuff at home

(01:27:54):
or whatever, you know, andyou just might catch them when they're in
that faith. Yeah. So youknow, everybody's different. But you know,
growing up, I feel like myparents are always like, you gotta
go to church, you gotta goto church. So we went to church
all the time. We were Methodists, but as soon as I turned the
team, my parents put going tochurch. Oh, And I was always

(01:28:15):
like, I don't understand. Youused to tell me how important it was,
and they're like, well, itwas important for you guys to get
like that foundation of like faith.And I was like, oh, that's
interesting, but we shouldn't have stopped. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like it was almost like it wasin the parental handbook, like yeah,
get your kids involved in, youknow, in the church, but

(01:28:35):
just long enough until they you know, they can make their own decisions right
and let go. But I feellike my parents' relationship actually took a turn
after that, and I was like, maybe you guys should go back to
church. It's it's, you know, people get spiritual fulfillment in one way.
Sometimes it's going to church. Sometimesit's surfing or riding a bike or
running. You know, they havetheir own connection to whatever doing taxes maybe

(01:28:58):
for some people, I don't knowwhat it whatever it is not, but
it's like, but it's it's weirdhow that like can be. Is it
is a term a lynch pin?Yeah, in someone's relationship like a Lana
and I, Yeah we met ata church gamp, but you know what
nowadays she and I, Okay,is it gonna be on the show but

(01:29:19):
like we're we're more agnostic than weare religious. And I'd say, I'm
not to talk about religion, butI guess there there are some values I
took. I took a lot ofpractical value out of church, a lot
of like approach to humanity. Ithink, I think everything's changed, to

(01:29:41):
be honest, but I still thinkthere's good core values there, you know,
I think. And I don't thinkyou have to be a religious person
to see that, but I dothink you have to be exposed to a
little bit. And I do.I do feel like technology is kind of
ruined a lot of things, likesocial media in general, because it's like
it gives people a platform to talknegatively about things or say more than they

(01:30:01):
you know, not more than theyshould, but just things maybe they don't
understand or don't fully believe. Andand I just feel like sometimes churches get
bad raps for one reason or another. It's like politicians, like, you
know, whatever, they're making money. It's still a business like right,
But I do feel like the intentof church h is good, The main

(01:30:26):
idea is good. You know,Um, it's funny you had touched something
earlier about just like people in theirlives, and I was thinking about COVID
listening about Jed Carrie, who youknow, it's just two kids, young
kids, right, and you knowwe'd be on zoom calls and you would
just hear like utter a chaos likea house. And I remember her like
looking right at me like uh huhhuh, And I was like, how

(01:30:47):
how are you not hearing? Ican hear it. How are you not
like tuning that out? It's justnot a problem. Yeah, well but
it is. Though. She wasjust trying to like play get herself and
kind of wock it out. AndI was just like I knew that would
create a lot of stress for her, you know, because she'd be like,
I gotta two the kids, likeI need to finish this, but

(01:31:08):
I gotta take him to hockey andI gotta do this. Yeah. It's
like, oh, man, Likeso everybody's life has stuff that you have
to deal with, right, Jenand I we're talking about for it seems
like forever, but it's really beenlike the last couple of months because we
have all these things going at once. Yeah, And I said, you
know, Jen, I I've alwaysforced things to happen. And I said,

(01:31:32):
I'm just gonna I'm just gonna takemy hands off the wheel, Like,
let's just roll and just see whatthe universe kind of brings to us,
like, yeah, don't push,just keep doing what we're doing,
but don't force anything. Yeah,and just see what happens. And it's
interesting. I think we both thoughtthe opposite of what is actually gonna happen,
what was gonna happen that way wewould bail and you know, all

(01:31:54):
these jobs, we end up makingless money and struggling trying to get these
going. But uh, this week, our boss was just like, but
I look at a raise for youguys. You know, we want to
keep you around. And so jenerare like, maybe maybe there's something that
you said about that. So yeah, So it's like my philosophy right now,
it's like, look, just rollwith everything, don't try and force

(01:32:15):
anything, and just gonna let theworld. You know. It's kind of
like, you know, what isit? God has a plan. It's
like, just let it go.Man, It's okay to be type B.
Yeah, it did not be likeI gotta make it, let it
happen. Well, and I goback to think, just be good at
what you do, you know,or try to be good at what you
do. Like that goes so farwith people. Um, you know,
and be nice if you're if you'regood at what you're doing, you're nice

(01:32:36):
to people. I just feel likeit's hard for for people not to notice.
You know, that's gonna tile theepisode there you got to be interview
with Steve leather Me, work hardand be nice. I like it.
Thank you so much. This wasIt was really nice and I'm glad it
wasn't a waste of your time.I don't know. I mean for me,

(01:32:58):
it's good to catch up with you. I feel like you've always been
good about supporting stuff that we've done. Yeah. I tried. Julie and
I did laugh about you yesterday becausewe reminisced about the holiday party. Oh
my god, which one had abroken leg? Yeah? Because yeah,
because I think I said I was. I told her I was doing this
with you because I was like,do you remember Kurt, And she was
like Kurt, and she goes Kurtand I went holiday party. She's like,

(01:33:20):
Kurt, I'm glad we were like. I was like, I think
he was either in the leg breaksor a castle. He had crutches and
he was passed on the man.That was That was a night I've not
ashamed of myself for that night.And I remember being over the toilet and
Jen was in there laughing everywhere alllike yeah because yeah, I mean that

(01:33:43):
should have been an HR moment,like we had like tend people to bathroom
looking at you and go okay,and I'm like a little gay. It
was all sovereign people, like therewere no like ingroove people. It was
like vegging Jen Rochelle. Oh god. But again, like I remember thinking
like that fucking arty, Oh that'sgreat. Oh man, the holiday parties

(01:34:03):
that kelsos and they're fun delete thispart, but yeah, it's all go.
But they like it's like the deanof the college is there and like
ivery a million people are in thisroom, and then the president of the
university is like booze is free toshoot your ID and I'm just like that's
a bad idea. Educators, You'relike, yeah, I'm gonna grab my
food and leave. Well, youknow, and it is funny because it's

(01:34:25):
like it's hard to promote stuff likethat and not expect someone to take advantage
of it. Sure it's like freefood and then getting mad at somebody for
eating. It's like I don't evenI don't honestly, I don't drink anymore.
Yeah, actually I don't either havea beer a month. Maybe I
have a cier a month. That'show it's crazy. I am. Yeah,
um, but but you know,I get it, like I go

(01:34:48):
out to shows and I like,I just don't. I'm like, I
go out for the show and Iturn around, like I go home.
When I saw Nick Cave, though, I did my buddy and I did
take an edible and I'm telling that'sthe only time I ever have and ever,
like I'll only ever do it atconcert right, no other time when
I'm gonna do it. But itwas like, do you listen to Nick
Cave, I don't say. Hada new album come out, and there's

(01:35:10):
a song called White Elephant, andthere's a point in the song where it
could goes from like the digital drumsand everything to like actual instruments, actual
drums, and it comes in withlike the crash symbol and like it brings
it in. So it was likethe third song they're playing and we were
like, he hasn't hit yet,and so listened to the song they're going
through and Warren else is playing onhis synth and they're like doing all this

(01:35:30):
stuff like Nick Cave is in andhe's a force to be reckoned with.
When he's on stage, he's amazing. And then they get to the point
where he says the line and thenthe drums kick in the second that the
symbol hits BE and I'm like,this is They was like it was so
good. I will say that ediblesare probably my thing at night, like
I right before you go to bed. It's just you know, I always

(01:35:54):
saw my wife like I just can'tdisconnect from work, Like I just constantly
think about it. Yeah, soI tried it and I was like,
oh my god, this is actuallyreally nice because it's like what I like
to do is like work, weeat dinner and then I'll just turn the
TV of my wife and I'll justsit and watching a show or something.
Yeah. But what I don't likeis when I'm watching the show, no
all I'm just thinking about work.Like even this morning, I woke up,

(01:36:15):
I was like I need to dothese three things today and I'm like
it's Saturday. I'm like yeah,but I just keep get done. But
when I when I take a littlelittle gummy. Um. It just separates
my mind, Like I just Idon't think about work, you know,
And to your point, like theshows are better, you know, cookies
taste amazing. Yeah, and Iknow it sounds silly, but there are

(01:36:36):
times when I'm like, why isthis so good? Yeah, chocolate is
amazing. It's it's we overdid it. We took too much. And so
the show ended and we were likehoping to take enough tour. Like by
the time the show's over, we'regood. Yeah, yeah, you're not
so much. We were like weneed to eat, and we're like we're
like walking out of the restaurant orthe vinue worth the shrine or just like

(01:37:00):
waking food. And so we werelike crossing the street of the in front
of the parking structure and like Ilike, you know me, I'm like
whacking, like you know. Peopleare like I'm like, oh, you're
going too fast, right, So, like this car's coming out and they
have to like slow down. They'regoing to kind of fast. And I'm
in front of my friend who's justas high as I am, and I'm
might I mean to do this,I go, oh, you're going too

(01:37:21):
fast. Instead I went but hewas like, Kurt show the fuck out.
I'm like, I'm like I'm fine, and he goes, no,
you're just you just freaked out atthey are not cool right now. I'm
like, let's go get food.And we went to this Hawaiian barbecue and

(01:37:42):
we're like trying to eat, likeyou know, you have to like to
will your body to do things whenyou're that park on the whole time.
We're like, this was a mistake, and then like four cops walk in
to get dinner. We're like,Chris, Chris, We're screw. He's
like, chill out. That's whyI only do it at home because I
do not, like I do nottrust myself. Well. Her friend who

(01:38:04):
gave us and she's like, it'slike, okay, you guys want to
take you know, this whole thingfor Eacho's gonna be a lot, so
let's split up one. Yeah,I said, we'll do each We'll do
a quarter and she goes, youmight want to do an eighth. I
said, now I'll do a quarter. Fine, right, oh man,
So Lesson learned. Yeah. Itreminds me of when I when I worked
at em I like twenty years ago. Uh. A lot of people like

(01:38:26):
to smoke pot and I've never likedto smoke classes it was my thing.
Yeah, And then we were outand they're like, oh, you should
hit this, and I was likeall right, and I hit it and
God only knows what was in there, but I just remember going, I
have to go, like now Ihave to go up. And I walked
outside and fell flat on my face. And then and then it's like that
that feeling you're like, I reallyhave bucked up, Like and I tried

(01:38:47):
to scurry and I was walking downthe street and I I don't know how
I did it, but I wastrying to text my wife to come pick
me up. And I turned thecorner on the side street and I I
landed. I lost my balance.I landed in a shrub and I just
didn't stay there, and so mywife is like, where are you.
I'm like, look, She's likewhat do you What the fuck are you

(01:39:10):
doing? In she something fun ofme. She's like, you know how
you know how like you know Iknow that you love me? And I
was like, pick me up outof the bush, shrubby Steve. But
to your point, though, it'slike you it's like your your body's like
one hundred and twenty five thousand poundsand you're like, I just to game.

(01:39:33):
It was just like, oh,this happening, and you know,
like you're in there, but it'slike you've just lost control. Like the
spaceship. Your vision is like youonly exist a frame at a day,
Like if you move fast like itjust you know, your vision keeps going
and you're like the focus on thechair. Oh my god, that's funny.

(01:39:55):
Ship. Oh I'm glad. I'malmost thirty. Yeah. Almost.
Do you get your whole life?Eddie? You man, I know it's
amazing. I got time not worried, and that's I don't feel like you're
young. You're like I have todo this by the time I'm this age,
I gotta do this. She's twentytwo. She's like, twenty two,
I gotta get my career started.And I started laughing at her on

(01:40:16):
the photo. I was like,no, you don't girl, you know
idea. Yeah, I mean,but it's a stressful time because especially for
me in LA, like you feellike you're you have to compete with everybody.
Yeah, and that sucks because it'slike I remember thinking, I was
like I just need to make myage like my salary needs to match my
age. And I remember I thinkabout that now and I'm like, you

(01:40:40):
were making thirty thousand dollars when youwere thirty, Like that's ridiculous. Yeah,
you know when you think about likeminimum wage now was like sixty.
I think if it's like fifty dollarsan hour. But I was just like,
how did I How did I survive? How did they do it?
So you know you have to gothrough all that. Yeah, I have
three, I'm drinking pans bananas.I have four four. Well, yeah,

(01:41:03):
but it's not it's not the same. It's it's truly not the same.
It's not a comparison by any means, but it does. It does
make life harder when you have multiplethings to worry about. Yeah, the
kids on top of it. Inever like it. Never. You know,
parents were like you that you shouldlike kids, You're gonna be so

(01:41:24):
hard, Like, no, I'mshut up. I love being a dad.
I would not take this away.But yeah, man, that that's
just another thing that makes life challenge. You know, it's just not easy.
So I gotta get going. Yeah, I was gonna say thank you,
Steve, thank you. This isjust one sid

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