KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali (Sun, 13 Jul, 2025)

KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali on Sun, 13 Jul, 2025

Episode Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to another special edition of Justice Watch.
We are here with our very own host, Attorney Zuluali,
to talk about his new with the Jury, Money.

Speaker 8 (04:15):
Votes and Pride Come Black.

Speaker 7 (04:17):
You know, you talk about the main premise and the
overarching theme being the fact that if African Americans don't
align behind a collective strategy, they will never be able
to achieve social justice in a way. Can you really
expand on those four fundamentals that you talk about and
what it is that this collective strategy entails.

Speaker 9 (04:38):
Well, the four things that I'm focused on is, of course,
the jury, money votes, and I use the word pride,
and I kind of initially was going to use the
word value, but I believe that value and pride or
can kind of be used simultaneously.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
And those four are areas.

Speaker 9 (05:00):
I believe that as a collective group that it's only
by focusing on those four areas that I believe that
we're going to be able to achieve the appropriate degree
of success in this country. I mean clearly, I mean
we've seen it for you know, four centuries of African

(05:22):
Americans actually being subjected to.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
Consistent injustice and cruel treatment.

Speaker 9 (05:33):
We've you know, I go and kind of give a
summary throughout the book the historical context as to how
we've gotten to this time period right now, and how
you're still seeing the same thing in many ways.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
And so.

Speaker 9 (05:54):
Initially when I talked about the issue, and I'll begin
by the issue of the jury system and jury which
has been something that I've been focusing on, and you know,
we've had our meetings, we talk about it all the
time on the radio about the significance of the jury
system and how the jury system is really the the

(06:19):
very underrated aspect of the criminal justice system. And that's
kind of the you know, we continue to go through
this thing year after year after year.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
You know, we saw it from.

Speaker 9 (06:34):
When we started seeing these police beatings on camera, which
we can go all the way back to the issue
of the Rodney King beating which was caught on you know,
caught on camera. And as we're going through now because
of technology and everybody having the cell phones, you know,
we're seeing these things, you know, live of people just

(06:58):
getting beat down by the police and killed, you know,
for no reason. I mean, we've had this, you know,
the recent issue that we had just just recently in
Milwaukee where the gentleman was shot seven times in the
back by police in front of his children. You know,

(07:18):
we had the George Floyd situation that just wasn't you
know what, maybe a couple of months ago. So it's
it's and everybody wants to know, what do we do,
How can we change this situation? How can we make
the system become accountable.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
A lot of the focus obviously has been on.

Speaker 9 (07:40):
Police reform, which is is important, but in the same token,
I don't believe reallocating funds to law in law enforcement
and you know, reforming the police, or even the whole
idea about the immunity issue about police officers being immune

(08:04):
oftentimes to.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Liability.

Speaker 9 (08:08):
The one thing that I think is the main key
is our jury system. And I think the reason why
you hear there's never a discussion about it because people
don't see it. You know, it's one of those things
where police officers are easy to attack. But every time
an individual is shot in the back, every time an

(08:29):
individual is is beat down, that is really not really
that officer himself. That is really just basically a reflection
of the entire system. And when I talk about the
entire system, it begins with lawmakers. You have judges, you
have prosecutors. You know, you have juries, you have all

(08:52):
these aspects of the system that leads up to that
up and to that point, as long as those other
elements of the criminal justice system are not held accountable,
officers on the street.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
Are definitely not going to be held accountable, right, And.

Speaker 9 (09:08):
So what I try to do is try to explain
the whole idea of the jury system and trying to
relate what happens on the street as far as police
officers in their contact with individuals in the street, back
to really what happens in the court. I think that

(09:28):
in most people's mind there as actually that disconnect. How
do you relate the fact you have police officers beating
down the individuals in the street, then you have an
unjust court system.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
How do they relate to each other?

Speaker 9 (09:43):
How can one have any effect on the other. And
it's all about accountability, right. In other words, police officers
do on the street what they do because they get
the wink and the nod from the criminal justice system.
That's why I mean, if the majority of the individuals

(10:03):
who are arrested end up being convicted, whether it's by
plea or by the jury system, without any question from
the police officers, then it's going to continue to happen.
The justice system has always treated police officers with kid gloves.

(10:24):
There is a presumption within our justice system with judges
and prosecutors that whatever the police officer does or whatever
he says, it's going to be taken it's true. And
so the only way that you're going to be able
to put a mechanism in place within the justice system
that's going to change that is, first of all, how

(10:44):
do you stop people from I mean, in other words,
if people are primarily taking please, then once someone arrested
is arrested, it stops there because there really is no
really judicial or court procedure that is going to overlook
what happened in the street. And so when you begin

(11:08):
to start looking at a jury system, which there's twelve
individuals who are making who make a decision if you.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
Take the matter the trial.

Speaker 9 (11:18):
Now, keeping in mind, as I address in the book,
most people do not take cases to trial because most
juries are white, most defendants are black and Hispanic, and
white jurors are more likely to convict black and Hispanic people,

(11:41):
whether they're guilty or not, just because of the differences
in their understanding and experiences with the system. The way
the system is supposed to work. Our system of justice
in this country, which is the most important concept of

(12:03):
the American criminal justice system is the presumption of innocence. So,
if you have a defendant that is presumed, if you're
going to presume someone is innocent, there's two other things
that you have to presume. One is you have to
presume that the police arrested the wrong person. Number two,

(12:28):
you have to presume that the prosecutor is trying to
prosecute the wrong person.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Right.

Speaker 9 (12:36):
If you don't presume those two things, then you cannot
realistically presume this person to be innocent. So most white
Americans have a completely different idea of how they see
the criminal justice system and see police. Most white people

(12:59):
trust the police. Most white people believe that it's unlikely
that police officers are going to mistreat people of color
or anybody period. And they believe that, you know, most
police officers are, if not all police officers, and the

(13:24):
court system is just a good, honest system, right.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
And so if you believe that.

Speaker 9 (13:34):
The presumption that belief and the presumption of innocence cannot
exist in the same space, it's just not even rational.
You cannot, on one hand, believe that there's almost it's
completely unlikely that they would arrest somebody who's innocent, and
it's completely unlikely that the court would try to prosecute

(13:58):
an innocent man. How can you really presume this person
to be innocent and that they just don't exist? Whereas
African Americans, on the other hand, have a completely different
ideology about police officers and the criminal justice system because
that's their reality. And oftentimes it's not a matter of

(14:20):
saying white people are necessarily bad people, but it's their reality.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
Right.

Speaker 9 (14:29):
And if it's their reality that these things happen, and
you happen to be an African American who happens to
be innocent, but you have an all white jury that
has a completely different reality than you do, then how
is it likely that you're going to be presumed innocent
by these individuals that are going to have a different

(14:49):
reality than you. Right, some may say that that's a
racist or reverse racist concept because the same presum that
you have about white people may be, you know, the
complete opposite. But we also have to recognize that we

(15:10):
do have biases. See, that's the whole point. The whole
point is that we as human beings, beings have biases. Oftentimes,
the difference between at least from my perspective people of
color and white people is that sometimes the realization that
the biases exist. See, the worst person to have in

(15:35):
the criminal justice system are people who do not acknowledge
their biases.

Speaker 3 (15:40):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 9 (15:40):
You can never work on something unless you realize don't
realize that it exists. So at least from that perspective
of the jury system. So if we're to somehow have
some sort of jury reform that allow for African Americans
and anybody Mexican, no matter who you are, to have

(16:01):
a cross section of people on the jury panel representative
of at least mandatory and African American on a jury,
then you're going.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
To see a different criminal justice system.

Speaker 9 (16:17):
You're going to see more police officers being convicted of
police brutality. You're going to see more police officers being
subject to civiliability, and you're going to see more people
taking cases to trial and less people taking plea deals.
So you're having all these innocent people who are being convicted.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
Of things that they didn't do.

Speaker 9 (16:39):
We will never get past that issue. We're not going
to get past that issue because you know, that's the
humanness of us. You will have one person who is
going to argue the issue about when you talk about
the innocence of an individual accused, then you'll have somebody
arguing then about the victim, the words of justice for

(17:03):
the victim, you see what I mean.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
So it's a never end in battle.

Speaker 9 (17:06):
And unless you're able to create that balance acknowledging that
the thing that we have to overcome is the fact
that you have people with these inherent biases will never
get past it. It's just not gonna It's just not
gonna happen. So also talk about collective economics. I think
that one of the things that we as black people

(17:30):
have not dealt with or not really focused on, its ownership.
I think that unfortunately, you know, there was always this belief,
and it was really a genuine and a righteous belief
that all we really needed to do is for as

(17:50):
black people, especially after you know, the period of Jim Crow,
after you know, Plus versus Ferguson were.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
The Supreme Court rule that separate.

Speaker 9 (18:02):
But equal was constitutional, and then you created this whole
Gym Crow system where people felt like, you know, all
we needed to do was just integrate into society, and
that once we integrate into society, then things are going
to be more fair and balanced, and that was that
came about with Brown v. Board of Education and then

(18:25):
the many years after Brown v. Board of Education where
you had the civil rights movement in trying to get
governments and you know, individuals to accept that decision and
the right for black people to integrate into mainstream society.
When we did that, for example, much of it came

(18:46):
about during you know, the famous.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
Rosa Parks bus boycott.

Speaker 9 (18:52):
So we felt like, you know what, we just boycott
and then once we get an opportunity to set at
the front of the bus, then there's gonna be equality, there's.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Gonna be movement, and there's gonna be progress.

Speaker 9 (19:06):
However, the problem is just imagine if instead of boycotting,
if they would have bought their own bus company, right
and generated their own generate wealth.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Right.

Speaker 9 (19:23):
So in other words, what we've done is we've had
two two primary things that have happened for black people
economically in this country. From a broad perspective, one is
we had slavery, right, uncompensated labor developed the country into

(19:48):
the most the richist nation on earth. Right uncompensated labor
and unpurchased land.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Obviously, if you're in business.

Speaker 9 (20:00):
You'll know that you're the biggest expense that a business
has is labor.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
Right.

Speaker 9 (20:08):
I mean, we'd all be rich if we if we
were able to run businesses without labor, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
So that that put us in that situation. That was
the first thing.

Speaker 9 (20:17):
Then the second is then we moved into the sharecropper aspect.
We became sharecroppers where we were able to stay on
the plantation and make money for the for the for
the plantation owners, but we were able to keep a
little bit for ourselves and have a little bit of freedom.
It's pretty much we live in We're living in a

(20:38):
sharecropping uh aspect right now. In other words, we're still
modern day sharecrops, sharecroppers. If you look at at at
at our biggest businesses, at the black some of the
you know, whether you're talking about black television, some of
our biggest black entertainment, all these things they're generally for

(21:00):
black people, were subsidiaries generally of a larger company where
we're making money, but we're giving money to other people,
right and you know, so I think that we have
to get out of this mindset of being sharecroppers. The
reason why people are in a sharecropper mindset is because

(21:22):
there is the fear of independence that.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
We may not make it.

Speaker 9 (21:25):
The same mindset where you were, you know, required to
depend on your slave master is the same mindset.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
That we have now.

Speaker 9 (21:35):
We believe we have to have these people in order
for us to be successful. People do not come to
America to struggle. People come to America because of money.
If you were broke and didn't have any money in
America and you lived out on the street, but you
still had the ideas of America, you would not say

(21:56):
it's the greatest nation. The only reason that we say
as the greatest nation is because there is an issue
of the opportunity to make money and to live comfortably
right and to have some degree of freedom.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
That's it.

Speaker 9 (22:14):
And you're going to find very few people who are
extremely poor who.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
Are going to think that America is the best nation
in the world.

Speaker 9 (22:22):
It's only the you know, most of the working class
and the upper class that have that ideology. The reason
why the America was created was not so that we
could be free. The European powers sent people here to
this colony to do one thing is to generate wealth

(22:46):
for the ruling class. That's how it was made, right,
It was only obviously through the whole idea of the
American Revolution. But the American Revolution was about money, right, right.
We're making all this money and now I'm getting taxed,
you know by the king and the queen. We want

(23:09):
to keep all our money. So that wasn't because they
wanted freedom. It's because they wanted They don't want to
be pimped. They wanted their money.

Speaker 7 (23:17):
We ought to have some sort of economic freedom in
order to achieve political freedom.

Speaker 8 (23:22):
Would you say that they go hand in hand.

Speaker 7 (23:24):
I know you mentioned a little bit about politics, and
that's another element in your book.

Speaker 8 (23:28):
Do you think that goes hand in hand?

Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, politicians are for sale.

Speaker 9 (23:31):
Why would somebody spend a billion dollars to run for
an office and they're going to make two hundred and
fifty thousand dollars a year, and why do they you know,
it's all about money. In other words, you know, it's
kind of like disingenuous to believe that someone gives money
to a campaign contribution because they're doing their civic duty. Yeah, right,
I mean, give it to the Boys and Girls Club

(23:52):
if you really want to do your civic duty. The
reason why you give a politician money is because you
want to call in a favor.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 9 (24:02):
So I think that if you want to understand America,
money and race is Lyndon B.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Johnson was quoted as saying that.

Speaker 9 (24:12):
If you want to as long as you can make
the lowest white man believe he's better than the highest
black man, you can keep your hand in his pocket
all day long, you know, and he you know, that's
what the President of the United States said. So it
kind of gives you an idea of how it goes
hand in hand. And that's why I say that America
is really, you know, it's a pimp game.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Yeah right.

Speaker 7 (24:35):
I think it's interesting that you mentioned it in that
aspect because usually they're seen as dynasty so points. You
definitely make a lot of points that are very simple
to understand it, and that's really appreciated. And so I
wanted to ask, you know, I know you're an attorney,
you're a black man yourself, and you've been through America.

Speaker 8 (24:54):
What is the American dream in this context?

Speaker 7 (24:56):
I know that in your book you do mention that
in a way that the American dream has been stolen
from the black population.

Speaker 8 (25:04):
Can you expand on that.

Speaker 9 (25:06):
I mean, I think that sometimes what's interesting about slavery.
I think the first thing that when you think about
slavery is that it's a very interesting thing, especially as
it relates to the American system of slavery, which in
many ways is oftentimes different than I believe other forms

(25:28):
of slavery in many ways, for example, when you think
about early world history and slavery, slavery which comes from
actually a European term, but if you look put it
in context slavery, other Africans had enslaved other Africans. Europeans

(25:53):
had actually been enslaved, you know, in.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Certain parts of you know, times and in history.

Speaker 9 (26:01):
But oftentimes it's interchanged with any time that someone worked
outside of their community. Because the African economy prior to
European colonization was based upon tribal economy.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
So in other words, if I.

Speaker 9 (26:17):
Lived, you know, close to the water, and I had
fish and some other tribe had yams, then we would barter.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
However, if.

Speaker 9 (26:30):
I was to work outside of my tribe for somebody else,
for even for compensation, that would be considered to be
a slave because there was no employer employee relation, you know,
in that context as well.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
As prisoners of war.

Speaker 9 (26:46):
Prisoners of war were oftentimes seen as slave and they
were you know, you know, sold or or exchanged or whatever. Right,
So in America, you have to think this, this is
the thing in your mind.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
This is what I like people to think of.

Speaker 9 (27:06):
Imagine what it took to take an individual who does
not want to be a slave, put them on a
plantation to work for you. There's no way that you
could physically make someone do that, right, You could not physically.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
Do that.

Speaker 9 (27:34):
The only way that you could do that is that
you would have to mentally destroy that individual.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
You're going to leave this.

Speaker 9 (27:43):
And not only do you have to mentally destroy that individual,
you also have to mentally manipulate everybody around them. So,
in other words, you have a slave, you can't just
beat them. Well, you can beat them, but you have
to beat him enough to make sure that he understands
he's not a human being and he's not even worthy
of it.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Then you have to have overseers, white overseers.

Speaker 9 (28:09):
You have to make sure that the white overseer who
was less than you, understand that he's better than the slave,
because how could the white over seer beat the slave unless.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
He believed that the slave was less than human.

Speaker 9 (28:25):
How could you, as a human being have any dignity
and respect in your community or by your neighbors or
by your family for doing such a diabolical thing to
another human being unless you can convince them that what
you were doing was righteous and that the people that

(28:46):
you are beating it into were less than.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
So it took an entire It took them.

Speaker 9 (28:52):
They had to manipulate everybody in order to accept that institution.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Right.

Speaker 9 (29:00):
Yeah, So now what you've done is you've taken individuals
and you've done the You committed the worst.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Crime known to humanity against someone, and.

Speaker 9 (29:10):
Now you've sent them through almost three centuries of enslavement.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
You've literally built a nation.

Speaker 9 (29:22):
And the only reason that America was sek has been
successful is because of slavery. If America had not been
engaged in slavery, let's just assume that it was they
had white workers, right that just worked.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
And tore the sen the land themselves.

Speaker 9 (29:44):
I don't believe for one bit that America would have
been the nation that has become right. Uh, it would
have never made that way because there would have been
an the Civil War would not have been fought over slavery.
The Civil War would have been fought over somewhat something else.
So the whole idea is that we're only here today

(30:07):
primarily because of the institution of slavery. If you take
the institution of slavery, that's the most constant thing in
American history is this slavement and the mistreatment of black people.
From the day from the day before that a European
set foot in on this continent till today, there's only

(30:27):
been one thing that's being consistent, and that is the
mistreatment of black people.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
Period. There's nothing else that you can even compare it to.

Speaker 9 (30:37):
I know that people tend to people love to try
to justify things in their head.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Right.

Speaker 9 (30:43):
My grandfather once told me that there's two sides to everybody.
Who you are and who you want to be. And
most people are not think they are who they want
to be. But they're not these people. They they're not that.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
I mean, it's just it's un believable to me.

Speaker 9 (31:01):
When I was a kid, I was never blown away
by the fact that there were people who owned slaves.
I was blown away by the fact that you had
a people who allowed it to happen, right, you know,
what I'm saying. You might not have been personally involved,

(31:21):
but you was an accessory. Yeah right, you could say,
you know what I didn't, I didn't do anything to slaves,
I didn't own any slaves, But you're benefiting from it.
Anytime you benefit from a from a crime, you're going
to go to prison. So if you're living in this
country and you're benefiting from a crime such as slavery,

(31:45):
and you say, I never owned any slaves, I've never
done anything bad to a black person, I didn't live
during slavery, But you don't acknowledge that you're benefiting from it.
You're a neccessory.

Speaker 7 (32:00):
People in this country have been oppressed for over four
hundred years, you know, four hundred years centurions, and we're
still seeing these issues kind of be present in our societies.
And in that, you know, I like that you mentioned
in a way that it's in this American nightmare, the
identity of the African American individual has been deconstructed so

(32:23):
much so that they are not prideful in their identity.
And I guess we can delve into your last pillar,
the last pillar of this book where you talk about pride,
is that how.

Speaker 9 (32:34):
You connected in a way it encompassed the issue of values.
The one thing that I'm also very concerned about in
our community is that I always tell people that I
grew up. I'm from a place called Shelbyville, Tennessee. And
you know, I was born in a single parent household,

(32:57):
and my mother worked to jobs and I lived. I
spent a lot of time with my grandparents and being there.
We lived on this street. There was probably no less
than maybe fifteen twenty homes, and in every house on

(33:18):
that street, which we're all African American, there was a
man and a woman in that house taking.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Care of their children. Right. So the future of our
people is going to heavily weigh on.

Speaker 9 (33:44):
Our commitment to being parents and taking care of our children.
If you really look I mean, I'll be the first
one to tell you I'm hard on.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
People that don't take care of their children. I'm hard.
You're not going to get a lot of that's my bias.
You're not going to get.

Speaker 9 (34:06):
A lot of sympathy or empathy out of me if
you're not taking care of your children.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
I get it. Everybody is not going.

Speaker 9 (34:16):
To be able to be in a relationship that's going
to work you know, mom and dad may not make it,
but that does not change the fact that you have
to make taking care of your children a priority. In
every reliable study, a person who has both parents in

(34:40):
their life will have a much better chance of succeeding
and less likely to get involved in many of the
ills that we have going on in our community. Granted,
you know, if you look at prior to the Civil

(35:02):
Rights Act, the UH being born out of wedlock was
a whole less likely than today. And you know what
happened prior to that time, that's different, you know what
I mean. I mean, I mean, obviously one of them
is the UH, the expansion of the prison industrial complex

(35:27):
and mass incarceration, which are generally you know, black men
getting very long sentences. And if you're doing that, if
you if you have this area during the Reagan.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
Area era where you saw.

Speaker 9 (35:43):
The explosion of the crack epidemic, which was in many
ways part and partial of a policy as well as
the CIA funneling drugs into the black community. UH, and
you know, and and the the the the people who
are getting getting hooked on crack, and because of situations

(36:06):
with regards to the economics, people are selling crack and
people getting much much longer, larger sentences for possessing or
selling crack as opposed to cocaine, because crack was really
a black and brown drug, Make no mistake about it,
it was just cheap cocaine.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Uh.

Speaker 9 (36:25):
You don't see that time going out for prescription drugs
or methamphetamine either. So the policy and the ways that
the law the sentencings were different.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
So people were.

Speaker 9 (36:39):
Getting these long sentences going away, and the community was
just you pulled the you pulled the productive African Americans
out of the community during the after the Civil Rights Act,
you left the weakest in the commune unity and out

(37:00):
of the weakest out of the community. Then you're taking
those individuals out and it just weakened. So, you know,
we do have to start focusing on parenting and you know,
men being in the home, because although I grew up
in a single parent household, I had those examples, you

(37:24):
know what I mean. I mean, I had people that
were there. I knew exactly what I wanted, and I
knew from my grandparents and other individuals exactly who I want.
And another thing too, is that we also have to change.
When I talk about the issue of values. Is that
money is important and that make no mistake about it.
But there's a difference between money and economics, you know

(37:48):
what I mean. I mean you can have money and
be have no power, you know what I mean, or
have no value. I mean, if you sell your souls
to the devil then and you know there's nothing there.
So we have to begin to start understanding the whole
idea of.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
You know, we have to.

Speaker 9 (38:11):
Look were Sometimes we're short sighted and we don't think collectively,
and so when you're doing the type of economics where
you're not really thinking about the bigger picture, then what
happens is that, you know, sometimes the two conflict with
each other. It's more important to have to be poor and.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Have values than to be rich and don't have values.

Speaker 9 (38:38):
Because if money in and of itself was to be
the end all, to be all, then you would not
see the things that are happening to people who do
have money, right. I mean, it's like there's a large
number of billionaires that I've said this in our last time,
that kill themselves.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Right, So if money is bunny, doesn't change that.

Speaker 9 (39:03):
You know, So we have to focus on our values
and the pride in.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
What we were able to accomplish.

Speaker 9 (39:10):
And part of what we were able to accomplish as
black people is the fact that you know, we're not
just people of African descent.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
We're the strongest of the Africans because.

Speaker 9 (39:22):
We survived the Middle Passage, we survived slavery, we survived
you know, the convict lease system, we survived Jim Crow,
the civil rights we survived all of that. So there's
much to be said about that because nobody else can
do that. And I think that in essence comes where

(39:45):
we have to deal with the fact that people do
not hate us. They fear us. They fear who you
will become. That's what they're fearful of. And we have
to understand in that, Yeah, you.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
See what I mean.

Speaker 9 (40:02):
You know, I've never seen nobody throw shade at nobody,
you know what I mean, people throw shade at somebody.
And so I think that oftentimes what they're fearful of is.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
That, you know, they understand.

Speaker 9 (40:19):
That if we were to ever get in a position
where we build up our economic base, we begin to
start focusing on the family, we began to start voting collectively,
and we begin to start dealing and packing these juries.
They got a problem. Yeah, that's that's the whole thing.

(40:41):
Is not necessarily that black people are going to take
you out of powers, that there's going to be a
paradigm shift in this country and social order is going
to change.

Speaker 8 (40:51):
True, true, And like you say, it's it's I think
it's it's.

Speaker 7 (40:57):
Truly informational that you suggest a collective strategy for such
an intersectional issue in our system. It's a systematic issue,
and you're not only coming with a single solution, but
rather a set of solutions that have for so long
not been implemented. And you with your expertise as an attorney,

(41:17):
as a past police officer, somebody who served in the military.
So with that, Ms Trelie, thank you so much for
lending us your time. We really appreciate it, and we're
truly honored to have had this interview with you with
regards to your new book called With the Jury, Money, Votes,
and Pride Come Black. Thank you so much for this
instructive and really informative discussion, and for all of.

Speaker 8 (41:41):
Those of you, thank you so much for tuning in.

Speaker 7 (41:43):
We look forward to seeing you tune in as well
to our Sunday segments with Justice Watch Radio.

Speaker 8 (41:47):
With Attorney Zuluwali.

Speaker 7 (41:49):
For more information, you can log onto justicewatchradio dot com.
Thank you so much for everything.

Speaker 6 (42:20):
Over the past twenty five years, I've had the privilege
of interviewing and highlighting some truly interesting people. I mean
everyone who is anyone, both the famous and the infamous,
from presidents and their first ladies, to kings and queens,
movies stars and pop stars, captains of industry, heads of state,
sports personalities, innovative entrepreneurs. Has some pretty fascinating everyday people. Today,

(42:43):
I am proud to introduce you to Zulu Ali, an
attorney and activist who hopes to build a legal legacy
that he can pass on to his children and grandchildren,
but also a legacy that will go beyond and inspire
and motivate others. Mister Lee, or should I say colleague,
it's such a pleasure to meet you.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Thank you. This is definitely a pleasure to meet you
and to be here as well.

Speaker 6 (43:10):
So Counselor. Clearly, you have devoted your entire life to
law enforcement, serving as a police officer first turned attorney.
What made you choose this past for yourself?

Speaker 9 (43:22):
Well, actually becoming an attorney was actually my original passion
has always been a passion of mine. I'm originally from Shelbyville, Tennessee,
which is about sixty miles south of Nashville.

Speaker 6 (43:36):
You know, I loved boy. I'm a girl. I'm from
North Carolina.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
Oh wow, yeah.

Speaker 9 (43:42):
So, and I was raised in a single parent home,
and so I spent a lot of time with my
grand grandparents.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
And my grandfather, ad Reynolds. He was a janitor. He
actually cleaned law offices.

Speaker 9 (43:58):
And one day, when I was probably maybe about seven
or eight years old, he took me to work with him,
and he the name of the of the law office
that he was cleaning. It was an attorney by the
name of Tyrus Cobb, and he took me into the
law library and he introduced me to Attorney Cobb. He said,
this is my grandson. He's going to be the next

(44:20):
Avon Williams. And Avon Williams is a really great civil
rights law lawyer out of Nashville. And in fact, he's
me cousin of third Good Marshall and then Attorney Cobb
you know, told me about how you know how great of.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
An attorney Avon Williams was. And c Alexander Lulli.

Speaker 9 (44:39):
And they're good, Marshall, and you know how they changed
the world. And I left there that day thinking, you
know what, that that's what I wanted to do.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
But life takes his course.

Speaker 9 (44:51):
I've become a police officer and one day I'm in
probate court and the and the judge in probate court
was actually the attorney that my grandfather had introduced me
to twenty years earlier.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
And when he.

Speaker 9 (45:05):
Called my case, he says, ladies and gentlemen, I want
you to meet the next Avon Williams. And he, you know,
told me how great of a man my grandfather was,
and how proud my grandfather actually had passed away when
I was in the military. So told me about how
great a man my grandfather was, and I got extremely
emotional and decided that I was going to go back

(45:29):
to school and pursue, you know, my original dream of
becoming an attorney.

Speaker 6 (45:35):
And I did that, just as your grandfather had predicted.
And speaking of your work in the military, I understand
that you actually served in the United States Marine Corps.
So what was that experience?

Speaker 7 (45:48):
Like?

Speaker 3 (45:49):
It was a very I learned a lot.

Speaker 9 (45:52):
Being in the Marine Corps is actually something I'm extremely
proud of, you know, my service in.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
The Marine Corps.

Speaker 9 (46:00):
I my MOS, I was an infantry money infantryman, but
I spent the majority of my career in the Marine
Security Forces, serving at guard you know, at Pearl Harbor
and the Marine barracks there, and it was a great experience.
I learned a lot about myself, a lot about discipline,

(46:23):
met some really great men and women that I served with,
colleagues that I still have contacts with today, and it
also inspired me. I have actually here in California Veterans
Legal Clinic where we assist military veterans as well as
active duty military personnel with legal matters, you know, at

(46:45):
no cost here at the office.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
So you know, the.

Speaker 9 (46:50):
Marine Corps and military definitely has a very special place
in my heart.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
So definitely it was it was a great experience.

Speaker 6 (46:59):
For me, and I have to imagine that helped you
with team building because together with your daughter, you now
run the largest black owned law firm in California's Inland empire.
So thinking about your variety of experiences, what are the
benefits of having such strong business partnerships with a family

(47:21):
member Because you have been working under the auspices of
your grandfather's prediction all these years.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 9 (47:32):
I mean, you know, having my daughter, her name is
Whitney Ali, and she's been with me for a few
years now, working, you know, alongside. I mean, that's very
special to have my daughter here with me. I mean
she actually, you know, with law being a second career
for me, she was able to see me go through

(47:52):
my undergraduate education, graduate education and building the firm. So
she was able to see that and so that's you know,
you know, she she talks about that a lot, and it's.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
Very special, you know, for her.

Speaker 9 (48:07):
But it's it's just great having a daughter and someone
who can you know, you know, carry on, you.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
Know, that legacy.

Speaker 9 (48:15):
We you know, I'm an old Southern boy, so you know,
the being a lawyer is it's something special and something great,
something that you can do to you know, change things,
you know, the challenge things.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
And that's what we focus on, is trying to.

Speaker 9 (48:33):
Challenge the course when we feel that it's necessary, and
strive to make changes in the law when the law
is unjust. And to have a team of people with
you that share that same passion, it's just it's a
great thing.

Speaker 6 (48:48):
And speaking of making those kinds of incremental changes. Obviously,
the culture in our country, uh manifests itself sometimes in
that change. As a matter of fact, I know that
what was going on within our black and brown communities
stopping frisk amongst law enforcement, really inspired you to create

(49:12):
the Stop and Frisk Academy. Why don't you talk me
through what its purpose is and how did you come
to start it?

Speaker 9 (49:19):
So back in I believe it was maybe two thousand
and fourteen is when we initially started to Stop and Frisk.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Academy, And.

Speaker 9 (49:29):
It's always just been something that I've you know, definitely
been inspired to do.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
And one of the things I remember that I was.

Speaker 9 (49:40):
Concerned with a lot of the things that we've already
known as far as black and brown people, the experiences
that we were, you know, that we were dealing with
when it comes to law enforcement.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
I was just frustrated. I remember one night and.

Speaker 9 (49:56):
I had a dream, you know, about my grandmother, and
I was just frustrated, I mean, just frustrated about dealing
with the system and dealing with you know, the problems
of course that you have not only in the streets,
but oftentimes that you that you have in the courts,
and so anyway, so I have this dream and I

(50:17):
get up and I just woke up with this disdesire
and a passion to really do something to help make
a difference for both young men and women.

Speaker 5 (50:26):
You know.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
That's kind of the things that I like to focus
on as mentor and young men and women.

Speaker 9 (50:30):
And a friend of mine who actually had a mentoring program,
I touched bases.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
With him, and we.

Speaker 9 (50:39):
Got together and we put together this program called Stop
at Frisk, where we h at least on a monthly basis,
we bring in young men and women primarily from the
inner city and from at risk communities.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
We just bring them in and we teach them.

Speaker 9 (50:56):
You know, we spent a lot of time talking about
how to deal with police encounter, is, how to deal
with issues of the criminal justice system, how to avoid
falling into the traps of the criminal justice system.

Speaker 3 (51:08):
And we teach them other things.

Speaker 9 (51:09):
Such as, you know, we we provide them with information
about career educational leadership skills, time management skills, whatever we
can do to what I often say is to kind
of stay out of the way and to be progressive.
But it's it's a very and we've been doing this

(51:30):
every month except during the pandemic. Of course, we we stopped,
but a couple of months we started again with the
program and we and we also take the kids out
to you know, see movies, will bring them to just
different places for them to see that anything is possible,
you know, despite you know, the issues and the problems,

(51:54):
and it's just you know.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Something that I love to do and and you know.

Speaker 9 (51:58):
It's it's just a a program that is near again,
it's really near and dear to me.

Speaker 6 (52:03):
I see that your work has taken you not just
for community activism and changes in the laws and then
also teaching people how to navigate around the justice system,
but I also understand you do some work in international law.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Tell me about that I do. Right before the pandemic,
actually I was.

Speaker 9 (52:29):
On the list of Council at the International Criminal Court
at the Hague and started to get.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Involved in doing a little work with.

Speaker 9 (52:38):
Representing witnesses as well as individuals who are involved are
accused of crimes at the International Criminal Court. We actually
had opened up an office actually in the Netherlands. Unfortunately,
like I said, this was probably right before the pandemic,
and so we're trying to get back into that.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
But that's kind of what the.

Speaker 9 (53:00):
Primarily my international practice is focusing on the International Criminal Court,
and we also do a lot of international work with
individuals who are seeking asylum because I do immigration work
as well, so a lot of people who are trying
to come to the country as refugees as well as
individuals who are in the country and fearful of going

(53:21):
back to their countries of origin. We do asylum cases
and we as well as relief fund the Convention against
Torture as well.

Speaker 6 (53:30):
Black Man's religion Islam or Christianity. When I read that title,
I immediately said, let me say if I'm going to
Amazon and get this because I know my nephews would
love to read that. So talk me through what this
book is about.

Speaker 9 (53:47):
Well, this book is a book that I wrote after
I had went to Mecca. This was back in nineteen
ninety seven and I had taken the Heights of Pilgrimage,
and so when I came back, I actually wrote the
you know, wrote the book. Primarily the book is focused
more on the Unitarianism, you know, of the of God,

(54:14):
and I kind of like compared the two. But what
was really special about that that was the first book
that that I wrote and It actually is in the
Library of Congress, and it was one of the books
that it was owned by one of my favorite people
and the civil rights icon.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
Rose A Parks, as part of Rosa Parks Papers.

Speaker 9 (54:38):
And that's the reason why I really, you know, the
fact that someone that I hold in such you know,
high esteem and have so much respect for it would
even consider even on in a book that that I wrote.
That's the reason honestly that I that I really, you know,
I'm very proud of that. That's very proud, proud moment

(54:58):
for me to notice that was something she owned as well.

Speaker 6 (55:02):
You should be counselor as well. You should be. As
I hear you talk me through your story professionally and personally,
it is very clear that family has been the foundation
of who you are as a man and as a professional.
So what role do you think family has played in
your personal and professional career?

Speaker 3 (55:24):
Everything?

Speaker 9 (55:25):
I mean, my family basically part of it, beginning with
my mother, who I said was a single parent who
you know, raised me.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
She worked two jobs, she.

Speaker 9 (55:37):
Gave me everything that I wanted and everything that I needed,
and you know, she was mom and dad to me,
and you know she's you know, just just a hero,
you know, watching her and what she had to go
through and what she gave me.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
My mother is, you know, is responsible whatever I have.

Speaker 9 (55:58):
I mean, that's the face you have to see because
she's the one that's responsible for all of it. So
you know, I give everything, you know to my mother,
my wife. I've been married for you know, thirty five
years and you know, since I was nineteen years old,
and so she's always been there with me and supported

(56:19):
me and everything.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
That you know that I did. And then you know,
we have.

Speaker 9 (56:23):
Four daughters that are grown now, but you know, they
also you know, are very proud of me. And you know,
having children that are proud of you is also important.
So they continue to inspire me. And you know, being
you know, a grandfather now as well. I have actually

(56:43):
four grandchildren, so that's also inspiration. And even going back
to you know, my grandparents. My my grandfather, who you
know was was a janitor and you know that's you know,
just to think that, you know, my grandfather was cleaning
law offices and today I own a law office, and

(57:05):
so you know that's, uh, it just speaks volumes to
you know, what happens when you have people who inspire you,
and you know, and he inspired me as a man.
You know, he was a great family man. He you know,
took care of his family and so you know, he
you know, he touched me in that way as well.

(57:27):
I knew what it took to be a man because
I was able to watch a man, you know, be
a man. So that's that's really important to me. So yeah, family,
family is everything.

Speaker 6 (57:37):
Well, it's so very clear you had that strong mother,
that wonderful, strong wife, and you've become the ultimate girl
dad because those women have showed you exactly how whom
and are supposed to be treated because they have raised
an amazing man. Counselor has been a pleasure to chat

(57:58):
with you. I want to make sure that you convey
what's the one thing you'd like the viewer of this
video feature to walk away with, because the work that
you have done will last for an extremely long time,
much past your life and my life, and I do
think will inspire others.

Speaker 9 (58:19):
Unfortunately, we still live in a time that you know,
the way that you look, you know, sometimes you know
people are going to you know, I guess, as they
say in the streets. I mean, there's a lot of haters, right,
and people who you know, you know, hate your success, uh,
and people who may not want you to be successful.

(58:40):
But I just want to inspire people that to to
go out and to fight and struggle to do, you know,
to be the best you that you possibly can be,
and to not allow anyone to stand in your way
or try to prevent you from you know, what's.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Yours and and and to realize the greatness is you know.

Speaker 9 (59:02):
And that's what I hope people take away from it,
is that you can still regardless.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
I mean, you're gonna run into.

Speaker 9 (59:08):
Challenges, people are gonna hate on you, and people are
going to try to hold you down, but you know,
keep fighting and.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
You know you will be successful ultimately.

Speaker 6 (59:19):
And since you brought up what is a saying in
the streets, let me go ahead and add to that,
you are telling folks to let your haters be your motivators.
That's right, absolutely, you know, that's what That's what our
mamas would say to us. Motor sir, you have just
been a delight.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (59:40):
There's nothing I like more than talking to my colleagues
and finding out what inspired them to find their purpose.
And the law, the law has always been the great
equalizer for me. The possibility exists for justice, and I
just admire those who work tirelessly every single day to

(01:00:02):
make that happen for others. Thank you, sir,