KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali (Sun, 3 Aug, 2025)

KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali on Sun, 3 Aug, 2025

Episode Transcript

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Particularly people say well, you know if you're gonna build.
Thank you for tuning in for this edition of Justice
Watch with Attorney's Zulu Lee. I'm Attorney's Zulu li On
behalf of the Justice Watch crew. Rosa Nunez, doctor Michael

(08:54):
I Mean MacMichael Bloo, Park Park Clark, doctor A Kilda
shared this week, like we do every Sunday, will be
discussing important and critical legal issue affecting our communities. Our
guest today is Attorney Joanne Dvale. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 7 (09:11):
Oh it's a pleasure to be here with you on
the people that listen to you every weekend. It's very
important and where we're going to be talking today and so.

Speaker 16 (09:21):
Yeah, we're definitely excited about having you here as well
as your expertise. Just to tell people a little bit
about yourself, you have been an attorney for nineteen years
and worked as a legal advisor for former governor in
Puerto Rico. You directed the Natural Resources, Environment and Energy
Committee and to sendate and practice family and criminal law
for about ten years. You also volunteered with the detainees

(09:44):
and federal detention centers in Puerto Rico and that had
no status and started to get interested in immigration law.
And then in two thousand and nine you moved to
California and continued the legal practice and immigration and you
started working with Detainment Ease and you've volunteered with different
consulates and nonprofit organizations to assist the most vulnerable population.

Speaker 7 (10:07):
UH.

Speaker 16 (10:07):
You've also been until one assisting deportees UH. And currently
you have a solo practice in immigration as an immigration attorney,
doing mostly removal defense, asylum and family based cases.

Speaker 14 (10:22):
So I mean obviously one of the the UH.

Speaker 16 (10:28):
This segment regarding immigration law. Obviously it's a very hot topic,
to say the least, both politically and it's and it's
really an interesting environment. And for me, the interesting thing
about immigration law, and every week we're talking about, you know,
different issues as far as uh, the legal system is concerned,

(10:51):
the interesting thing about the immigration law, at least from
my perspective. And and we'll we'll get more in details
about the different areas of immigration law and what immigration law,
you know, how it operates, and what it actually is.
But to me, I think that as far as the
immigration law, I believe it is actually one of the
most hypocritical aspects of our criminal justice system. And the

(11:15):
reason that I say that is because, you know, obviously,
understanding the history of our country, we realized it basically,
with the exception of the Native Americans, we're all immigrants,
you know, at some point in time in our history.
We've come from different, different countries and different backgrounds, and
that's kind of the fabric of the American society. However,

(11:39):
we've known that for many, many years, and you know,
especially in the in the most recent.

Speaker 7 (11:47):
Yes, certainly, as you previous stated and correctly stated, United States,
based on all our ancestors came from other countries. Unless
you have a Native American heritage, everyone has some one
that came here legally or illegally. They have come here
to create this great nation. One of the concerns that

(12:09):
I think most immigration attorneys has is the in stability
on depending on what administration is. And as you said,
I don't think that any administration has pinpoint what you
have to do in order to create proper immigration laws.
The immigration laws that we have right now have a

(12:29):
lot of laws, and particularly they don't have the necessary
tools to develop and keep the people that need to
be here and take out the people that should not
be here. Because I am on the belief that if
you come here to this country, do things the right way,

(12:51):
you should have the opportunity to stay. But unfortunately, our
laws right now not necessarily works like that the way
the immigration works. If you happen to come here, somebody
was nice enough to petition for you, you're going to
be able to stay here. If you were not lucky enough,
you were not able to be here. So it creates

(13:14):
a situation where I think that both major political parties
should be together to create the senses of what they
have to do in order to address the people that
are already here, and then obviously work also with the
people that want to come here, because that have been
an issue lately with the current president wants to create

(13:35):
a wall, and there are issues right now going on
the border regarding the people that are trying to ask
for asylum and they are returned back to their countries,
and all those issues are very important also to address.

Speaker 16 (13:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the issues,
or at least one of the hot topics lately, has
been the DOCOR program, which is I think what's the
what does the acronym stand for?

Speaker 7 (14:02):
That's a differ action for childhood childhood rivals. That's basically
the kids that came here to the United States as children.
Their parents bring them here, so they have no way
of deciding, oh no, I don't want to go to
the United States. I want to stay in my country,
whatever your country is. They came here, they're successful, they

(14:23):
go to school, they want to pursue careers and help
to this country that many of them came as newborn.
So for them, this is their country. And President Obama
create this given the facts that they were not creating
factors and laws to protect these kids. So he created

(14:45):
as an administrative order to allow these people to at
least be able to study or you know, prospering our country.
But now current presidents decided that that was not a priority,
so he decided to eliminated and it has been going
back and forward because right now they are accepting supposedly

(15:06):
new applications, but I am a little bit hesitant of
those new applications.

Speaker 14 (15:11):
So they're actually accepting new applications for.

Speaker 7 (15:13):
DOCTA technically yes, but since the government has ninety days
to fight that back, I am a little bit concerned,
and I have explained people that come to my office.
I'm willing to send the application, but you are aware
that something happens in those ninety days, you may lose
the money that you're investing. And this should not be
the way it should be. Like there is a decision.

(15:35):
And again, the thing is that the perception of the
community is a little bit different of what the immigration
laws calls if to qualify for DACA, a person that
just arrived yesterday does not qualify for DACA, you know.
So people think that people that are coming to the border,
they're going to apply for DAKA and that's what DKA
have to be eliminated. That's not the case. Ather thing

(15:56):
is that ACA won't be a proof to someone that
has certain crimes. So thinking that everyone gets daka, that's
also false. You know, you have to comply. You cannot
have certain misdemeanor, including a dui du it's enough. One
d ui is enough for you to be disqualified for daka,
or if you have DAKA, to get it canceled or

(16:18):
unable to be renewed.

Speaker 14 (16:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 16 (16:20):
I think that one of the interesting things about obviously
you talked about doc obviously is for people who are
children that have actually came here, are individuals who came
here at such a relatively young age.

Speaker 14 (16:33):
I believe that the year has to.

Speaker 16 (16:34):
Be what is it before two thousand and six, two seven,
two thousand and seven, Yes.

Speaker 7 (16:39):
Yes, And they have to be fifteen years or younger
at the time of two thousand and seven. So if
by the God of Day they were about turn sixteen,
sadly one gonna qualify and the brother is not gonna
qualify because the birthday was the day before. So it's unfortunate,
but that's the way it goes. And sometimes the line
has to draw somewhere, and that's how it is. So

(17:01):
people that enter into tho On eighty two sous On
nine and afterwards they don't qualify for DOC I see
this right now.

Speaker 16 (17:08):
So I mean, obviously it's not as expansive as people
might think it is. And obviously the whole idea is
you have I don't think that people understand how many
individuals actually come into the United States at such an
early age, and we're talking about as early as a
few days old and have actually been raised in the
United States pretty much their entire life. Some of them

(17:29):
have never been outside of the United States. I would
imagine most of them haven't, and they sometimes they don't
even speak the language. So if you take someone who's,
you know, twenty twenty one years old, who's been in
the United States their entire life, then all of a sudden,
they're trying to send this individual back to their country
of origin.

Speaker 14 (17:47):
They don't know any other life.

Speaker 16 (17:48):
They've went through school, and for the most part, they're
they've you know, they don't know anything else of the
United States.

Speaker 14 (17:55):
And that's the whole idea of the DOCTA.

Speaker 16 (17:57):
But what's also really important was during the Obama administration,
he was trying to implement DOPPO, which would have been
similar for parents of children of here that we're born here,
which is important because there you sending parents back for
two children who have actually lived, you know, born here,

(18:18):
are US citizens, and then you're going to send the
ship to parents off, you know. And also what's important
is under both programs, or almost any program, it's almost
uh uh never the case where these individuals are. You know,
people will talk about criminal aliens, and to qualify for

(18:39):
any of these you have to not have been committed
of any serious offenses.

Speaker 14 (18:43):
Is that correct?

Speaker 7 (18:43):
That's correct. That's that's then it doesn't make sense misunderstanding
of people and it says like, oh, you want to
keep criminals. But again for DACAD, you cannot have one
more than a significant misemeanor. And it's a very high
standard because as I said before, people say or the
UY is just the concept of the UI is that

(19:04):
is not that big of a deal, which it is, uh,
but somebody that have won the UI, it does not
qualify for DAKA. So and even if a person has
just one significant misdemeanor that can qualify him for DAKA,
they have to take overall what they expect from this kid.
If this kid has been successful and cool is this

(19:25):
kid has is gonna be a member of the society
and the community, and it is gonna contribute because they
can deny DAKA as a matter of discretion, even if
you qualify for all the other things. So it's not
as simple as all these kids that have DAKA is
everybody else. No, they have to fill out certain standards,
and a very high standard.

Speaker 16 (19:49):
And also, and I kind of want to at least
from our own personal perspective, is I believe that the
immigration debate, I think in many ways is a debate.
That's because immigration laws is extremely complicated. I mean even
for someone like yourself or me or anybody else that's

(20:09):
been practicing. I mean I think that we find yourself
something new is always coming up, and there's different in
various interpretations of the of the i NA Code or
various you know, circuit decisions, and even circuits have made
decisions that vary from circuit to circuits.

Speaker 14 (20:27):
So it's extremely complicated.

Speaker 16 (20:29):
But what I think happens with the immigration debate is
I think it's a very.

Speaker 14 (20:35):
Political.

Speaker 16 (20:36):
It's used oftentimes as a political tool, and I think
that the fact that people don't understand immigration laws. It's
easy to use it as a way to position yourself
from a political perspective to you know, use it one
where or the other. So oftentimes the narrative that they
create is like, for example, you know, building a wall, right,

(21:00):
you know, And so basically people say, well, you know,
if you're going to build the wall and you don't
understand the way that the immigration laws work, for some reason,
people think, well, you're going to build a wall and
you're going to keep all the illegal immigrants out of
the country, and then we're going to be safe, you know, because.

Speaker 7 (21:17):
This is a concept of safety that and that's something
that and in me particularly, I have been doing a
lot of at some point, I did a lot of
studies when I was doing criminal law about criminal activities.
And actually I met Jeffrey Dahmer, I don't know if
you remember him, which was one of the serial killers,

(21:39):
you know, and he wasn't in you know, Hispanic or immigrant.
He actually was born and raised here from parents from here.
So the concept of criminal criminalization of immigrants, that has
been one of the issues. There's a lot of people
that have commit crimes, and everybody has to pay for
the does that's not a problem, but the concept that
because somebody it's here on document, which is properly how

(22:03):
we address these people that come for different reasons. People
come because they want the better life, they want peace,
they want safety because some countries are at war, some
countries are going through a lot of political problems that
affect the people that live there. And the United States
has been recognized nations the nationwide that we are a

(22:27):
country that are open to these people that needs us.
But right now what we are focusing and like you said,
the press sometimes serves for political agendas, trying to criminalize
these people that are not criminals and that are taking
jobs from people which are not true. You know, years
ago there was rates going to the strawberry fields and

(22:52):
California I do like eighty percent of the strowberries that
are consuming all the United States. And they try to
hire people from here, but nobody wanted the jobs. So
they have to go back and they have to step back,
the immigration officials because they was like, Okay, you're gonna
have to pay ten dollars fifteen dollars for a box
of strawberries if that's what you want, because no one

(23:13):
wants those jobs, so saying that, you know, the press
goes and criminalize that if you have somebody that is undocumented,
you're not going to be safe. And that's what you
need the walls so these people don't came like they're
monsters and they're not.

Speaker 16 (23:28):
Yeah, I know, I think that one of the things
that kind of, you know is you know, that's kind
of like the the uh looking through the lens of
you know, like you know, having blinders on sort of
speak when it comes to trying to address the immigration
issue and the immigration debate. But I think the bigger

(23:48):
issue with the immigration debate is that basically, as the
United statess as being the superpower and that's being kind
of the leader in the world on humanity and other issue,
use that you know, you cannot on one hand be
the leader in the world on issues of human rights

(24:10):
and other issues and basically you know, get your hand
involved in the international community, but then on the other
hand kind of be closed minded and say you're going
to close your borders. It really doesn't operate that way.
And I think that ultimately what happens is that, you know,
the reason why America is the nation it is is

(24:34):
because it does openness borders, and it does invites the
best and the brightest in the world to come here
and contribute to our society. And some of the most
significant individuals that we've had our in our society, and
some of the best citizens that we had in our society,
some of the best soldiers, some of the best marines,

(24:55):
some of the best airmens, some of the best sellers,
some of the best people who have been involved than medicine,
involved in law, involved in all aspects of society, have
actually been individuals that have come to this country from
other places. So sometimes I think that we kind of
like lose our identity and kind of like not really

(25:15):
look at it from a practical perspective. I don't think
that we don't we really don't look at the fact
that what makes them if it wasn't for our immigration laws,
if it wasn't for the fact that we basically, you know,
we think about what you see when you come to
America from Ellis Island, you know, and what it says

(25:35):
that is who we are, and that's our identity. So
in other words, when you begin to start changing who
you are as society, you actually make yourself a lot
a more dangerous society. I think that sometimes, you know,
when you begin to start trying to be you know,

(25:57):
put yourself in a situation where you operate rating this
vacuum and you don't want anybody else to come into
the country. Actually you become more you know, it becomes
more dangerous than it does anything else. Because and I'm
gonna and I want you definitely to chime in on this,
but I think that what happens is that when you

(26:17):
begin to start studying the history of great nations or
empires and superpowers, most superpowers do not fall at the
hands of an enemy. It isn't through military power military might. Generally,
societies or great empires fall from within, right, And what

(26:41):
is happening is is that we don't understand how dangerous
we're making things for ourselves. It's just like the former
Soviet Union. I mean, I went into the Marine Corps
during the Cold War, during the time that it was
you know, it was Russia, right, you know, and everybody
thought that, you know, they used to make movies about

(27:02):
how Russia was going to come to America, and you know,
they were so powerful and then overnight they fell. There
was no issue of someone going to Russia and taking
over the country and you know doing it are some
terrorist organization.

Speaker 14 (27:17):
None of that happened.

Speaker 16 (27:18):
It just one day you woke up and the former
Soviet Union failed from within. And oftentimes that is that's
the fear that I have for our country. When we
begin to start hating each other for the values in
which we were built to become a nation, we're slowly
but surely going to begin to start eating ourselves up

(27:42):
from within. And I don't think that we truly understand that.
I think that basically we Number one, we don't understand
how young of a nation that we really are. We're
a very young nation in comparison to some of the
other so called great nations or superpowers.

Speaker 14 (27:57):
That's number one.

Speaker 16 (27:58):
And then when we write the world history books in
a century from now, what are they going to say
about our country. Are they going to look at us
as one of those nations that could have been because
we never really progressed and developed and basically became the nation.

Speaker 14 (28:15):
That we could have been.

Speaker 16 (28:17):
Or are we going to be a country that's finally
going to wake up and try and try to be
the leader and the example of humanity that we're supposed
to be.

Speaker 7 (28:29):
Yeah, and the problem is on this, like you said,
we are supposed to be one of the examples of
how human rights have been developed and how we at
some point can criticize other governments because they do this
or that to their own people. But we are treating
our own people because as we were talking before the

(28:50):
Daka kids, maybe we're not born here, but there are
our people. Those are people that have been in our school,
that are doctors, that are attorneys, that are hard worker,
teachers that want to stay here, that want to help
to this nation. But the factors that are affecting now
is that creating chaos inside the United States, creating the

(29:14):
facts that these people that are not the same as us,
and that include the broad of what many communities are doing.
Like you said, you have seen before that this person
calls on the university, she calls security because she thought
these two people didn't belong because they look different. And

(29:35):
we are a nation created by different nations. We are
a nation created by people that have their own culture
and grab our culture and create what we are right now.
And it's very serious because, as you said, immigration is
very complex, and instead of thinking about creating a wall
and separating us from the rest of the world. What

(29:56):
we have to create is a more common sense immigration
law that allows to process these people that need to
come to the United States for whatever reason, whether they
are asking for asylum, whether they want to have an
opportunity to work. There are people that will work here
for a little bit and go back to their countries.
Nobody is stealing anyone's jobs, like the perception, and I

(30:20):
hate every time that I hear it that, because no
one is stealing the jobs. You go inside and you
see how many times there are a lot of employment
and people don't want to do it. People want to
be and other things. That is very important, and I
wanted to bring it out because I hate every time
that says, oh, they come and they take all the
a system from the government. Immigrants don't take a system

(30:41):
from the government. They are not allowed to. The immigrants
and people that are on documents, doesn't qualify for food stamps,
doesn't qualify for medical services unless it's an emergency. They
don't qualify for many things that they think that they do.
So they are coming here to work. Art in your majority,
they're good and there are broad but in the majority

(31:04):
these people that are here and that are trying to
come to the United States looking for a better life.
They just want what everybody wants, a better life, the
pursue of happiness, the pursue of happiness, whatever in the
world that will be in the United States is a
good place to look for that happiness, you know.

Speaker 17 (31:21):
And I think that I think that that's the false
perception that is often given out to the majority of
the public is that you know, you have criminals, and
you have people going to come in and going to
create some type of chaos or blow something up, you know,
And that's what that's what a lot of the campaigns,
you know, basically you know, put out to the public

(31:43):
to make them it's more of a scare tactic, so
to speak, you know, to kind of pass these laws.
And so the statistics on how many people who comes
here and works and are successful is not giving out
to the public. You know, we hear about the criminal
side of it, you know, we hear about you know,
we hear about, oh, somebody's gonna come across the board
and they're gonna blow something up. But then when you

(32:05):
look at the great majority of the imagency that come
over here, they're hardworking citizens, they become hard working citizens
and stuff like that. But also a good point that
you brought up was the fact that you know, they
don't qualify for certain types of you know, benefits that's offered,
you know, because they work, you know, And so that's
the false perception that is given.

Speaker 7 (32:25):
So yeah, and not only because they work, the people
that come here. If you don't have a real social
security you are unable to receive any assistant from the government.
You can't even if you want to, you can't. That's
the fact. People that receive foodstems is because the foot
stems are for their children that are born here that
are you a citizen exactly. But the person that is

(32:45):
on documented doesn't qualify for those things. And that's what
they are trying to make people believe. I read sometimes
hate emails on Facebook, and I'm like, white people are
believing this because they hear someone and they can't create it.
And if you go to statistics that you were saying,
look at all the mass murderer here in the United States,

(33:07):
the majority more than ninety percent, which is a high percentage,
are born and raised here with no like they said,
oh my family was born here and here and here. No,
they're mostly here. Yeah, there have been I'm not saying
that undocumented people have not com in crime, that's not correct.
But the thing is that they are criminalizing all of

(33:29):
them when the fact is that, yeah, there have been
criminals between them, but that's not the majority of them.

Speaker 16 (33:36):
I mean, I believe that most of your well learned
politicians and leaders and those in power who aren't do
not have good intentions know that. I don't think it's
really a secret. I think that a lot of times,
you know, it's kind of like a code word when
you start talking about immigration. So in other words, I

(33:57):
think that the fear is that, you know, the demographics
of the world is changing, or the demographics of the
country is changing. As the demographics of the country change,
the political power changes, the voting power changes, and you're
going to see different individuals who would normally not become,

(34:21):
you know, in nationwide elections, who may be voted in
the office, would otherwise not be voted in the office.

Speaker 14 (34:27):
Has it if it's not for the.

Speaker 16 (34:31):
Immigrant community, are those we proceed to be immigrant community,
whether you're talking about first or second generation, Because obviously
these individuals when they come to the country, they have
children who are born in this country and they're US citizens.
And I think that when you began to start seeing
a shift in the political land, the politics, at least
in the last presidential election, really Trump did not really

(34:55):
become president.

Speaker 14 (34:56):
Trump did not become a.

Speaker 16 (34:59):
Lead or start showing some promise in upolling until he
began to start making statements about immigrations. When he says
his whole idea of saying America, We're going to make
America great again, building the wall, and even going as
far as saying that I believe that someone who's not
legal and is born has a child born in this country,

(35:21):
he wants to make a law. At one time he
had made the statement that that individual would not be
considered to be a citizen. It was really like cold
words because I think that we don't understand the significance
of Barack Obama's presidency. Whether you like Barack Obama or not,
it was really significant from a nationwide perspective because no.

Speaker 14 (35:41):
One, at least for me. I'm a child of the sixties.

Speaker 16 (35:44):
I was born in the sixties, and you know, having
an African American president was like a pipe dream. And
I believe that when you began to start seeing someone
like that become the president of the United States primarily
based in large part on a immigrant population. And when
I say immigrant population, I'm talking about US citizens who

(36:04):
are not considered necessarily to be like the Asian community
or the Hispanic community who voted heavily for Barack Obama.
Then now what we're seeing is that is that going
to happen again. Are we going to start seeing a
power shift that is related to the fact that we're
allowing more immigrants to come into this country. The voting

(36:28):
demographics is going to change, and we're going to see
a different America, right, And so I think that what's
happening is that it's not really people aren't sincerely concerned
that immigrants are going to be nobody can. I mean,
maybe you have people who are not intelligent, but we
know that that's absolutely not true. And it's hard to

(36:49):
believe that individuals really believe that, especially those who are
in power and those who are responsible for creating that narrative,
they do not believe that. There's no way that you
can make me believed that someone is not intelligent enough
to know that these individuals who are coming to this
country are all coming to be rapist and murderers. That's

(37:10):
just not true. So what's happening is is that we're
just seeing the immigration politics are using immigration as a
political way of trying to get people to vote for
certain individuals so that they can kind of change the
demographics of the way they see things going. They're fearful
of what's happening in our country, and maybe we're beginning

(37:32):
to start seeing we have a if I'm not mistaking
the most recent Supreme Court justice, it's Hispanic, correct. You know,
those are things that you never saw. I mean, what
was the likelihood of those things happening. We're starting to
see things changing and starting to see people becoming more
representative and becoming more of a global community and actually

(37:55):
moving forward as far as being a part of the
global community and maybe being a leader in the global community.
And that's what I believe the reality of it is.
And really, as we're talking about the details, I believe
that it's kind of like, you know, over and over
and over again, we know that we talk about the
same thing, but we know that that's not really the

(38:15):
basis of why these individuals are attacking the immigration policy.
It is just a political move and people that are
fearful of what's going to happen to the political landscape
escape of this country. And if we are not willing
to become more aggressive in becoming involved in the global society,
we're going to find ourselves in a very bad position

(38:37):
because someone is going to start taking I mean, we
have individuals who are leaving this country to work abroad
as well. We have a lot of Americans go abroad
to start working, you know what I mean. And if
we want to begin to start taking the position that
we don't want to be involved in this global landscape,
then it is going to make us much more much

(39:00):
more dangerous, or things much more dangerous than it would
be of our fear of people coming across the border
that are going to do all these bad things to us.

Speaker 7 (39:10):
I agree.

Speaker 17 (39:11):
You know, one of the things that you were saying
earlier about you know, here in the United States, we
basically pride ourselves on, you know, human rights, you know,
protecting people's rights and you know, protecting life. And you know,
recently we heard about the caravan that came over from
you know, El Salvador, Honduras, and you know they're at

(39:32):
the at the border who's actually seeking the political asylum,
you know. And the thing about it is they have
no chance of going back because if they go back,
they know they're going to suffer some consequences for going back.
And so they're here trying to I mean trying to
do the legal life, you know, and to have them
to sit and wait for such a law. And I
know it's a process, but the processes can be very

(39:53):
long and gruelly, you know.

Speaker 7 (39:55):
Yeah, And the worst part is where you're bringing it
out for the people that are seeking asylum is not
that they have to wait. I mean, if the meantime
that they're waiting and they're outside, there's fine. But the
problem is that they come. And one of the things
that I did like a year and a half ago
a volunteer in Delhi in Texas, which is a housing project,

(40:16):
not a housing project, it's actually a detention center for
children and mothers that come here and then they go
through hell and back. But you know, they're putting in
a situation that is kind of a torture because they
come here to the United States mother with kids that
are running the violence of countries like Honduras, Salvador, Guatemala,

(40:39):
Honduras is one of the deadliest countries to live in
the world. And instead of you, they're doing the right thing. Hey,
I'm here to the United States. I need asylum. Okay, sure,
I'm gonna put you out here, and I'm gonna fresh
you almost to death because the temperature is very degrees
with your baby, and I give you a bottle of
water is ounces and try to manage that with your

(41:00):
kid for the whole day. So what's gonna happen. Many
people are gonna say, Oh, I'm not gonna continue risking.
I'm gonna go back and I die on my country.
And then transfer them to another praise that is like
a dog pound that they treat them like their dogs.
They look like a cage. And if you're good and
strong enough, then that pass you to this other facility

(41:20):
home facility, which again is still a prison because you
cannot get out, you know, and you instead of giving
the humanity that these people need go through the process
to the interviews, given the opportunity, but no, you put
them in detention centers like criminals. When they are not.
They are just trying to get a better life, to
scave from persecution, to escave from domestic violence, to escape

(41:44):
from so many horror stories that you hear every day.
You could put them in detention like criminals, you know,
And that's the problem. My first contact with immigrants was
precisely into the detainee context, and it's very sad. It's
very sad seeing a person that has his newborn in
the coreroom and not being able to touch it, and

(42:07):
he hasn't done anything wrong, but he cannot touch it.
So it's just the humanity. We are losing that part.
The United States are losing the perspective and seeing these
people as they are aliens like they call, but you
are treating them as not humans, and that's very sad.
I see people that comments, all, we have to save

(42:29):
the dog, which I love dogs, but then you criticize
and you agree on having human beings in these deplorable situations,
which is wrong, completely wrong. So I mean, we as
society has to work in the meantime that they do
a real immigration reform. We have to work around and

(42:53):
and being trying to I'm trying to help these people
and not seeing them as criminals and not seeing them
as a threat because they're not a threat. Is any
person that is bad. It doesn't matter if he was
born here, was raised here, his grandparents came in the
Mayflower or whatever. A bad person is a bad person,
and it's not has to do where they come from.

(43:15):
That's the most important part.

Speaker 17 (43:17):
Yeah, you know, I was I had read earlier about
just a different the different things that that individuals that
can apply for you know, upon you know, coming into
the United States and one of one's family reunification, political asylum,
but also one with job skills or work skills that
can help or benefit the United States. And I think

(43:41):
that's one of the things that's very big here in
the United States as far as like he was talking
about the strawberry fields and stuff like that. The population
of workers, I mean in hard workers you know that's
been working for for years. And I think that when
you you know, create something to okay, let's say we're
going to deport them, I think you know, like you say,
a lot of stuff is going to you know, increase

(44:03):
in price wise, you know, because the workers you know
are immigrants, you know, right, Yeah.

Speaker 14 (44:09):
I mean that's you know that, it's crazy. One of
the things that kind of struck a chord with me.

Speaker 16 (44:14):
Of course when you start talking about detention, you know,
how they take individuals, and I think people probably don't
know how the immigration detention system work. I mean, it's
very complicated as to whether an individual has to stay
in immigration detention or or not. But in many of
these cases, what happens is that you're taking like she

(44:37):
was talking about, someone who may be a father or
a mother who's never you know, been involved in any
criminal activity a day in their life, and they might
be actually in the same facility that an individual who
might have just got out of prison for murderers, and
they treat I mean that they are in these detention
facilities and you know, I know, you know personally from

(45:01):
my law enforcement experience and also being a criminal lawyer,
how you know, you got this prison politic things going,
and they do the same. And these people are actually
put in situations like that, and you know, held in
these detention facilities with individuals who have actually maybe even
in some cases, you know, when they have the contracts

(45:23):
with county jails where they're in the same facilities that
people who are serving time for committing criminal offenses. I mean,
so it's really horrific the way in which they kind
of treat these individuals who are basically coming to the
United States for nothing other than just seeking some sort
of freedom, which is the history of our nation. And

(45:46):
to allow someone to have to stay in the detention
facility away from their family just for that reason, seems
to be anything other than humane.

Speaker 7 (45:57):
You know. One of the worst things is that people
don't know that somebody that comes to the United States
seeking asylum, this is just my luck situation, because it's
just your luck. Who's gonna be the officer that's gonna
see you. Because if you have this compassionate officer, they
may put you an ankle praiselet. They can put you
in alternative to detention programs that you report, or they

(46:18):
busy your to your house, and you're gonna be at least,
you know, free in the society. But if your luck
is not good, you're gonna be put on detention. And
people that come with no criminal record, with no issues,
many of them has never been in the United States,
has no contact. They are just trying to get freedom

(46:38):
that they don't have in their countries, has to wait
at least six months detained for nothing, for doing nothing.
Just for us to be safe from the barbarians that
is going on in their country, and that's awful that
we are in that position. And then obviously they have
a parole where the ice officer that is assigned to
you can't give you a reasonable bond, well, a reasonable

(47:03):
bond of twenty five thousand dollars for someone that just
came to the United States from a Salvador, from Nigeria,
from whatever country. It's not gonna happen. People come in
here because they want to have freedom, because they want
to ask for asylum, and instead they are being put

(47:23):
in a situation, as mister Ely was saying, they're putting
in a situation as worse than a person that is criminal,
because somebody that is accused of murder has a reasonable bond.
And one thing that people don't know when they give
you twenty five thousand dollars is twenty five thousand dollars.
There's no ten percent like in criminal matters. So in

(47:44):
criminal matter, somebody that is accused of murder can get
out with less money than a person that just came
to the border asking for asylum, when they are alternatives
to do that. And that's one of the things that
are broken in our system. Because there should be regulations
on how you manage that type of situation. But economics

(48:05):
goes here. You know, the money that they pay to
these companies that are in charge of the detention facilities
for immigrants is it's out of control. So ice officer,
they have orders to pick up people that are doing nothing.
I have now right now, a person that she was

(48:26):
doing nothing. She was following everything, she was a witness
against a smuggler, She was following all the rules, and
they decide, oh, we want you on detention. Now. I
guess what, after a year and a half doing everything
that they told her, they put her in detention for what.
There's no reasoning when you ask, there's no reasoning. I said,

(48:46):
the money that they're paying almost three hundred dollars a
day for a person, So imagine the money that that
So they see them also as an economic factor. Okay,
I'm gonna put them on detention. Two things are going
to happen. My friend or the owner of this contribute
to me, is gonna make a lot of money with
deep people. And at the end, some of them are
gonna be so broken that they're going to ask to leave.

(49:08):
Because for someone that has never been in prison, getting
to a detention facility broke down, and many people says,
I want to go tomorrow, I want to go now
because I can't stand this. Why I haven't done anything
wrong in my life.

Speaker 16 (49:23):
And there's there's no uniformity either as far as the
way in which they do. The bonding system is just
out of control because you can have there's no like
in criminal court. Obviously there's a bell schedule, so if
you are accused of a particular crime, then this is
what your beil and bond is going to be.

Speaker 14 (49:41):
But you can have.

Speaker 16 (49:42):
Two entirely two people with entirely similar or the same situation.
One could have a twenty five hundred dollars bond and
the other one could have a two hundred and fifty
thousand dollars bond, and there's really no filter, no oversight
with that. I mean, it's just whatever that person feels
like that day. There's there's a standard, but the standard

(50:02):
isn't necessarily there's no bond specifically set for. You know,
a person could have no criminal record and they say, well,
I believe you're a flight risk be cause you don't
know anybody here in the United States, And then it
could be a half a million dollars.

Speaker 14 (50:14):
I mean, it's just it's just completely ridiculous.

Speaker 16 (50:18):
And what is always crazy for me about people who
are fleeing persecution is that, you know, just imagine that
you left your country fleeing persecution with nothing except the
shirt on your back, and you come to the United
States right then, imagining that you have to go through

(50:39):
a court process to prove that you're fearful of going back.
How do you how easy do you think it's going
to be to prove that it's hard, that it's going
to be dangerous for you to go back?

Speaker 14 (50:51):
You see what I mean?

Speaker 16 (50:52):
I mean to me, it just seems like, I mean
what you mean, if you're if you know, it's like
they expect you to give Like if you say that
you have been a victim of some sort of brutality,
they might ask you for police reports. You just left
El Salvador with nothing but your shirt on your back.
You don't know anybody else. You just made your way here.
What is the likelihood that you're going to have proof
of any of those things?

Speaker 7 (51:12):
Who in Salvadore are gonna be you know, in the
right mind to try to go you know, you have
police brutality, and you're gonna go to the police war.
You just want the evidence, you know that there was
police brutality on my cousin or my brother or my dad,
so I can send it back to the US. Sure
that you're gonna get it. That's not gonna happen, you know.
And that's very unfortunate, because again it's just your I

(51:33):
always says, this is like press your luck. Let's see
who's your jodge, Let's see who your ice officer is.
Let's see in what mood they are, because I have
seen in my a core room waiting where one person
with forty hys get a bond just because the government
doesn't have the file on that. And we know because
I have in listening to them discussing their case while

(51:55):
I'm waiting. And then the other person that has no
crime has zero bone on because they don't have tied
to the community. And then you said, okay, which one
deserves the bone? But then that one that got the
for the uys and got bone, what's gonna happen. He's
gonna tell everyone that you can get out with for
the uys, which is not right. They're not gonna be
able to get out, and I don't think that someone

(52:16):
with for the UY should be out either, But that's regardless,
you know, it's just you're not so in the moment
the government didn't have the file, they decide to agree
on the bone and you got a ten thousand dollars bond,
and then the other person that goes with everything. And
this is the proof that I have been a hard work.
It happens to be that none of my kids was

(52:37):
born because I decided not to have children, So you're
not gonna give me a.

Speaker 14 (52:40):
Bone and eligibility.

Speaker 16 (52:43):
And that also was interesting about the eligibility for relief.
A person with for the uys has a better chance
of staying in the United States and getting a green
card than a person that has one arrest for a
possession of a controlled substance.

Speaker 14 (52:58):
Right, I'm saying, so that's.

Speaker 16 (53:01):
Even a crazy thing when they you know, so, I mean,
the it's way out of control as far as what
the immigrant what's the jurisdiction of the court. I mean,
it's just it's it doesn't there's no rhyme or reason,
and it's it's really just so unorganized and just completely crazy.
The way that that the immigration system works in a

(53:21):
way that we go about dealing with with the people
who are undocumented.

Speaker 17 (53:26):
And in regards to the immigration laws, I'm not very
versed on that, but I was wondering whether or not
I heard that they're hypocritical. I heard that they're you know,
they're not, you know, that contradictory. But what in regards
to other immigrants, maybe from Haiti, maybe from Saudi, I mean,
does it apply, does those those rules apply across the board?

Speaker 7 (53:49):
Well, the reality is that, for example, when you're asking asylum,
do you hear a lot in the street, Oh, if
you're from Mexico, you don't qualify for asylum. I was like,
uh no, that's not right. I mean, you qualify for asylum.
Any country won't qualify for asylum. You just have to
follow what the rule says. If you're going to be
persecuted because of your race, yourical opinion, your nationality, or

(54:12):
because you're a member of a particular social biom, which
is a old story, but it doesn't the problem is
that also I have to say that in that area,
some people don't know what to do. There are other
people that advise them to file asylum when they are
not clear where they are requesting, but when they go

(54:35):
in front of a judge, and I have to say
that we are blessed in Los Angeles at least, that's
my main opinion, because we have in general fair judges.
There are one or two that you know, you are like,
oh my god, that's the one that I have, But
in general they are. But if you see across the nation,

(54:55):
if you are from Mexico, you're from certain countries, you
are in no deny. They don't even care to read.
And sometimes it's like, oh, but what it is and
you can hear judges that says, but it's from Mexico
and it's from Selva. There's no war anymore. I was like, yeah, sure,
there's no war anymore, but you'd have to read the
reasoning and why these person qualify. So certainly unfortunate. Yeah,

(55:19):
depending on what country you are, you are already in
this advantage because there are some perceptions that if you
are from certain countries you are not gonna qualify for
US silm, which is not true.

Speaker 16 (55:31):
Well, I mean, what's crazy about you know the way
that you have to you know, going through immigration courts,
and a lot of it has to do with and
it's similar to really to be quietness with you in
many other areas of law, but especially when it comes
to immigration, sometimes it's not necessarily the person who is

(55:52):
able to be the most successful may not necessarily be
the person who is the most deserving. So in other words,
you know, as I say, I mean the possibility of
someone like, for example, I used to, especially early in
my career, represent individuals that were from Somalia, you know,
and you know there's a lot of you know, you

(56:14):
can't get anything from Samaria at least I don't know
if it's changed, but when I was doing it, you know,
it was really just a country that was completely just ruined, right,
And the individuals, I mean, even their personal information. I mean,
they all would have the same they don't know really
because of the calendar year, they don't really know their birthdays,
and you know, sometimes language barriers. I mean, these guys

(56:39):
would come here and they would not have anything really
to support their claims. However, you know, it doesn't take
a rocket scientist to know what is the chances and
likelihood of someone from Samaya at least, you know, especially
in the in the in the nineties and early two thousands,
to have a problem if they went back to their

(57:00):
country of origin.

Speaker 14 (57:01):
But people were you know, it was difficult.

Speaker 16 (57:04):
Those were very difficult cases because all you had was
the individual's testimony and it's an adversarial proceeding where the
government is looking for any kind of discrepancy to discredit
the individual. So it could be you know, like for example,
when they got here, they would say that their birthday
was January the first, nineteen, you know, seventy eight, and

(57:29):
then they would change it because they can't remember because
they don't have the birthdays.

Speaker 14 (57:33):
Like we do.

Speaker 7 (57:34):
And the last thing that, Yeah, that happens a lot,
and it's unfortunate because the other things that we have
issues is with interpreters. You know, even though the court
offers interpreters, not necessarily are the the best interpreters that
we have. There's some that are wonderful. I have to
say that there are some that are wonderful, but lately

(57:55):
they have new ones which are great because you're practicing,
and I'm cool that you practice while you're in a
master hearing. I don't want somebody practicing on the meriti
hearing because the merit hearing is a trial. It's where
the person is giving the whole testimony, and if you
change one word, that will change the whole story, and
then your credibility is gonna go down. And for example,

(58:17):
I speak Spanish, so I can catch when somebody is
speaking Spanish that that's not what she said. But what
if I didn't speak Spanish like many many attorneys won't
speak Spanish and have Spanish tempreats. What if, for example,
I have a Mandarin case. Recently, I was like giving
the face that that's a good interpreter because I have

(58:39):
no clue what my client is saying, so I don't
I can't catch whether that person is changing what the
story is. So it's very complicated and the extreme. Like
mister l was saying that requesting documents, the documents don't
appear as simple, even if they are close by, even

(58:59):
from Mexico, they're not that simple. I had a case
from Nigeria where the only evidence was him and he
was about to be denied and the luckiest person in
some ways, the dad Church got burned because he was
a Christian. And that was when all the issues with
the Bokaharan and you know when the kidnapping of the
girls and everything, the Godad's church got burned and it

(59:23):
was coveraging all the news with his name, and I
was like, oh, at least I can screenshot and bring
it over to court, and that was granted. But it
was very hard to prove something when you only have
a testimony and most of the cases that's the only
thing that you're gonna get.

Speaker 16 (59:41):
Yeah, and that's very unfortunate, you know that. That's how
unfortunately a lot of these cases end up.

Speaker 14 (59:47):
Man.

Speaker 16 (59:47):
I could go on for another hour about about the immigrations,
but I mean, I think that it's very very important
that we understand what's happening. But again, Joanna, I really
appreciate you. You're coming in and speaking with you. Hopefully
you can come.

Speaker 7 (01:00:02):
In again, and of course that will be more than
happy too.

Speaker 16 (01:00:05):
So more about about immigration law and UH and and
kind of