KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali (Sun, 17 Aug, 2025)

KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali on Sun, 17 Aug, 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
To protecting the future of working families Teamster nineteen thirty
two dot or thank you for tuning into this special
edition of Justice Watch. I am Rosa Nunius here with
our very own host, attorneys Zuluali. We are here to

(00:20):
talk about the cost and consequences of fighting for justice.
When you talk about race and how you know, different
kind of groups have been trying to fight to be
included in this constitution and be included in this country.
As a black lawyer, what are the conflicts that you
that you've faced, you know, trying to really fight for
justice and be there for your clients and also trying

(00:42):
to be an officer of the court.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
I mean, it's really really difficult because what you're doing
is that you have a system of justice in America
that has systematically, you know, oppressed black people, yes, and
you know the system basically as an all officer of
the court, than in many ways you stand to be

(01:04):
somewhat of an instrument that assists.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
In some way of that oppression, right.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
I mean, it doesn't make any difference what position that
you have, like for example, the President of the United States,
and let's just say during the Obama administration, you had
a black man that was the president of the United States.
And even though you had a black man that was
a president of the United States, you continue to have
the same type of discrimination. And some may argue you

(01:33):
had more discrimination that was going against an oppression that
was going against people of color during his administration, because
it's not the It's a system, of course, and it's
almost like no matter. It's almost like a machine, right,
and once you build let's say you build a machine
that makes wrenches, and then you decide that now we

(01:57):
want to make screwdrivers, you know, you use the same machine.
It's still going to produce wrenches regardless. And that's kind
of what happens when you're talking about a court system
that has you know, not it's the routine that African

(02:17):
Americans are not given the same type.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Of justice as other individuals. That's the way the system works.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
And just because you have an individual that's put into
that system doesn't mean that that individual is going to
change the output, right, And so whether you're talking about
black judges, for example, you know, we know there was
a situation with the with a judge that basically brought
to light the whole idea that a prosecutor was systematically

(02:49):
excluding black jearors and actually ended up getting suspended for
six months because of that. I think his name was,
I think it's Olu Stevens, Judge Stevens, and he was
an African American. Because what was wrong with that? Because
as as a as a judge, you're not supposed to
do that because that interferes with the system of justice.

(03:13):
And then and as a result of that, he was
suspended for six months for doing that. And so, you know,
I think that when you're talking about as a black
man who who is in a situation who really wants
to change things and challenge things, then you're going to

(03:33):
have issues with.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
The system, the system because the system isn't made that way.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
So if you so, it's a very difficult situation to
be in because you're going to be subject to constant
judicial scrutiny and sanctions because if you choose to make
a difference in the lives of people, a real difference,
then you're going to have a problem. Of course, right,

(04:03):
there's no way, there's no way of avoiding it, because
you know, the system is made a particular way and
when you begin to start challenging that are saying, you
know what, I'm not going I'm going to foul emotion.
I'm going to bring to light the fact that there's
a you know there there happens to be a predominantly

(04:24):
or almost all white jury, and my defendant happens to
be African American or Mexican American.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
And he deserves a jury of his peers. And if
you bring that to their attention, then you know, uh,
there could be some pushback, right, They may they may not,
you know like that?

Speaker 2 (04:46):
So what if the judge says, you know what, I
you know, it doesn't agree with you, then are you
supposed to just shut up and allow it to happen,
or are you or if you become vocal and you're
and be an advocate for your client. So there's a
in line between being a zealous advocate and being disrespectful
to the court. Wow, right, So because that's an that's

(05:08):
a very subjective idea.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
If you tell if if the judge.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Denies your emotion, you're saying, I want to strike this
jury because it is it doesn't look like my client
and I don't believe he's going to get a fair
trial because it doesn't represent a cross section of the community,
and then the judge denies it and you and you
continue to argue the issue. Then you know you're not
supposed to be there. Bring me somebody that's going to

(05:32):
allow this system to continue to do what it normally does,
and that is to be unfair and unjust to black
and brown people, which is the way you know that
that's part of our system.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, yeah, And it makes perfect sense that you say,
you know that. It's if you're being an officer of
the court, you're literally they're trying to make you to
cater to the needs of this system. But as a
person of color, you really trying to fight for justice
for your client, and in doing so, you explain how
you run into this thin line of crossing the line

(06:08):
over to protect your client or being that officer of
the court. And I guess my question is, you know,
what is your purpose and what really kind of inspires
you to fight for justice in such a system.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
For me personally, I believe that we all have a purpose, yes,
and oftentimes, and you know, we did a documentary called
Purpose and Freedom and it was really about an experience
that I had because it is frustrating, It is frustrating
realizing that the system is not going to allow you

(06:42):
to make changes unless you're willing to get bumps, bruises, scratches,
and death, potentially death.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
That's the nature of the game.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
And sometimes you ask yourself once you go down that road,
why are you doing this?

Speaker 3 (06:58):
And I remember that I had this and in this.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
Dream, in this particular case that I was dealing with,
after one of my clients was ridiculed and completely disrespected
by a judge in her case, I had a dream
and I was just really fed up with it, and honestly,

(07:22):
you know, I felt like I was done. Never quit,
because I don't think I'll ever quit, but I just
felt like I was done. And I remember in this dream,
I saw myself in this cemetery in Lynchburg, Tennessee, uh
and I was at the gravestone of my grandfather and

(07:44):
my grandmother and they actually there were I could see them.
They were standing there, and my grandfather was sitting there.
He was very stoic, he wasn't saying anything. And my
grandmother was there and I was talking to her about
you know what or know what am I doing this for?
And you know, I remember that she began to the

(08:06):
song that she used to sing to me. It was
a Mahelia Jackson song. It was called hold On. Her
version of it was glory is coming, Keep your eye
on the prize. Glory is coming, and she says, it's
not your glory, it's their glory. So I began to

(08:26):
understand that basically, sometimes your purpose is not necessarily your prize,
but sometimes it's other people's prize. And I've never had
a situation where I went through this process where somebody
did not benefit from it. And so in other words,

(08:48):
there's other individuals that are benefiting from you know, what
I have to go through and what I'm doing, but
you know, and it kind of rejuvenated me and kind of.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Made me realize that, you know, that was really my purpose.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
My purpose was to come into this world and to
touch other people.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Wow, that's it's truly inspiring to hear that you feel
like your purpose, you know, it's in a way something
bigger than yourself. And yeah, that's truly amazing and inspiring
to hear, because I feel like you don't really hear
that often. You really hear the small talk kind of
responds off, I'm a lawyer because of the money or
I'm a lawyer because I just want to have that

(09:29):
kind of character and be known as that. But it's
truly inspiring to hear that you know you're you're working
for something bigger than yourself, and to know that you're
willing to take the punches for your clients to You're
willing to take that hit because you know it's something greater.
It's going to be something greater in the end. And

(09:50):
I feel like we've talked about a little bit about
race and how that comes into play with you know,
the system and how it's really in charge of really
oppressing it individuals in a way, and I wanted to ask,
you know, why do you think the system in itself
has been formulated in such a way to continue oppressing

(10:10):
oppressing a certain group of people, right?

Speaker 2 (10:13):
I mean I think that you know it is fear.
I mean again, it's not fear of like physical fear.
I don't think they fear that the person is going
to do anything to them. I don't really believe that.
I think there it could be the byproduct in some
circumstances as to why people feel that way, but I
think it's a bigger fear as to who you can

(10:35):
become and I think that you know, humanity is you know,
I'm I'm you know, humanity never ceases to disappoint me
because you know, you know you kind of you know,
for me personally, I was always raised from the perspective
that you know, you you, everyone is trying to get

(10:59):
the you know, when you're trying to do good or
be good, then that's you know, that's really what we
live for. But the reality of it is is that
we live in a very selfish world. And I think
that when I you know, people basically fall into five
basic types of categories. One are people who are inspired

(11:23):
or are moved by comfort. All they want to do
is just be comfortable. The second group of individuals are
people you know, we call them, I call them that
are moved by acceptance. All they want to do and
we see those people. They are very they have inferiority
complexes and they just want to be accepted.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
The third is are.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
The type of individuals that want recognition and prestige, right,
and we know those individuals where you know, prestige is
good recognition. They just want attention period, even if it's bad.
We see that on reality shows, right. And then the
fourth group of people or what I call achievers, people
who are looking for personal or financial excess. They're just

(12:04):
they're obsessed with achievement, right. And then the last is
the impact and people who come into this world and
they want to make an impact. You know, they're far
and few between the Charles Hamilton Houston's, they're the Malcolm X's,
They're the doctor Martin Luther King juniors. They're the third

(12:25):
good Marshals, you know, Avon Williams. These are these people
I call impact players. Eighty five percent of the people
in the world fall into into the first three categories
either comfort, acceptance or recognition or prestige. Ten percent are achievers,
and then the fifth are impact players, right, and you know,

(12:49):
impact players are people who come to this world who
are moved by impact. You know, are kind of at
the top of the food chain, but are far and
few between and are moved by something that typically they
can really explain, you know what I mean. And they're
the five percent of the people that are truly satisfying.

(13:12):
In other words, most you know, there's this for me,
for example, there's this level of satisfaction. On one hand,
you feel like you're a tortured soul, right, because once
you enter the arena of truly trying to make a
difference in this world, then ultimately, you know, you realize

(13:36):
that you've committed yourself to something, and you know you're
satisfied knowing that whether it's today, tomorrow, or fifty years
from now, if you leave this world and you're in
your final resting place, you've done your duty. Right, there's

(13:56):
a sense of satisfy because you understand the world you've been.
I think it's a gift that some people have that
they understand that. But the other the thing about everybody
else is we're that everybody is chasing something that they'll
never be ultimately fulfilled because they're chasing something and even

(14:17):
when they get it. I mean, we see those people
like the achievers. I mean we have people, you know,
the how many billionaires do we know that committed suicide?
Are millionaires that commit suicide? I mean, these people are
never happy regardless of what you give them. But just
to circle around to what you're saying as far as
why people you know are the way that they are,

(14:40):
as far as you know, the system and people being
you know, racist, and it is again it's not really
it's just a matter of inferiority, and they're fearful of
who you will become.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
See right, I don't believe that.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
I mean, you do have people on the low level
of the food chain that believe, you know, those sort
of things. But at the but in the final analysis,
I think that if they were, you have to you know,
I think subconsciously there's the fear that what would happen
if these individuals were actually put into a position of power. Yeah,

(15:21):
and if and and and if if the society you know, historically,
you know, if society flips, then will these people do
to us what we did to them?

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Right? That's really what it boils down to.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
It's just the whole thing of you know, you don't
let your foot off of someone's neck, if you know,
if they're gonna get up and they're gonna kill you,
you keep your foot on their neck. So I think
that basically, when you do so much dirt to people,
and you treat people so badly, the fear is that if, if,
if if I allow things to be fair and not

(15:56):
be happy with their oppression and my perceived entitlement, then
I would lose it.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
See, people aren't moved.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
By fairness, yes, you know what I mean. The only
time that people are concerned about fairness is when they
treated unfairly. Of course, do you see people marching for
fairness when they're when they are treated special? I mean,
very seldom does that happen, you know what I mean.
So the only time that people march against police brutality
is when they can identify with police brutality.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
When people, you.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Know, march against the way that the justice system is
being you know, treating people in just whether it's courts
or whatever, is they're touched by it in some way.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
So you don't see you know, people striking with union
workers unless they're family and friends of people in the union.
And that's just unfortunate that we do not have people
who care anything about justice except for themselves in the
reads and while we have such a bad society, and

(17:04):
that humanity is in the condition that it's in is
because we are selfish people. Yes, it's just it's just
outright selfishness. And it's just like, you know, I was
talking last week about the upcoming presidential elections on the
show that we just did, and I was talking about
the fact that you know, there's all kinds of buzz.

(17:25):
I listened to all kinds of talk shows about the election,
but not one conversation about who is a good person,
you know what I'm saying, Who is going who is
going to treat the lowest man on totem pole as
good as the highest man on total pole. We're talking
about strategy, you know, we're talking about you know where

(17:47):
you know, why is it that we're more interested in
the fact that someone went to yell than we are
about someone who basically, you know, fought for his country,
you know what I mean. I mean, you know, it's
just like the president of the United States. People were
not outraged about what he said about John McCain. Who

(18:08):
was He says that just because he had an issue
with Jedden McCain, he never gave him any kind of
credit for the fact that, you know, he says, my
heroes don't get captured. I mean, you just think about that,
you know, and we're cool with that. But at the
same time, we're mad at Colin Kaepernick for taking a knee,
of course, so that kind of tells you exactly what.

(18:32):
And he's critical of Colin Kaepernick for taking a knee,
right so you're going to be mad at this man
for taking a knee protesting against police brutality, but you're
going to be disrespectful to a man who spent years
in a pow camp, you know, who went through all
kinds of torture. So I think that when you begin

(18:53):
to start understanding who we are, the hardest thing to
do is to look at yourself. Don't look at ourselves
as individuals.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
And so what happens is that.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Basically, if you're able to look beyond that selfishness and
you're able to go out in the world and you
begin to start fighting for people, even when those individuals
don't even appreciate the fact that you're fighting for them,
whether they do or not, and not to mention the haters,
because the haters come out of the woodwork. Then you know,
you have to deal with the repercussions of not being

(19:28):
that eight Well, the ninety five percent of the people
who go through their day not doing anything for nobody else,
accept them, accept themselves.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
It's the same thing with our politics. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
It's interesting that you mentioned, you know, how most people
are in that ninety five percent, and how throughout you
mentioned different and important figures of individuals who have purpose
and have been attacked. And we have seen this throughout
history with you know, different civil rights advocation. It's like
Martin thu Key comes and people of color have been

(20:03):
specifically targeted because of their purpose as a public servant
and as an activist, because you're not only an attorney,
but you're also someone who's out there in the community
and very involved.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Well, I think ultimately me, ultimately, my purpose is to
touch as many people as I possibly can and make
the biggest impact that I possibly can too and somehow,
some way helped make this world a better place, you know,
than it was when I got here. You know, I
remember when my grandmother, when I was a little kid,

(20:37):
my grandmother used to have this saying and I used
to ask her, you know, Grandmama, what are you doing?
And she used to always reply, she used to say,
I'm writing my obituary. What are you going to say
about me when I'm gone? And I remember that, you know,
one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes was he says,

(20:57):
the two most important days in a man's life is
when he's born and when he knows why he's born.
And I felt like that when I remember when my
grandmother passed. I went to her funeral. Actually I had
seen her the day before, and I remember this one
particular day earlier when she had made that statement to

(21:17):
me when I was a kid, and when she would say,
what are y'all going to say about me when you
when I'm gone?

Speaker 3 (21:22):
She would smile. She had a certain type of smile.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
And I remember when she passed away, and the night
the day before, she was actually in the hospital, and
I remember we were talking.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
She seemed fine, and when.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
I left the hospital, she smiled at me, and it
seemed like, from my mind, it was the same smile
that she would say when she would say, what are
you going to say about me?

Speaker 3 (21:49):
Right?

Speaker 2 (21:50):
So, when she passed away and we went to the graveyard,
and you know, I could kind of feel that right
and the way I felt when she left this world.
And because she was an extremely giving person like her her,
you know, she would give you everything that she had,

(22:12):
you know, if you needed it, right, and so, and
the way she made me feel, and then the day
when she passed away, the way she made me feel,
and I always said that, you.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Know, that's what I want.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
I want to live my life in a way in
which when I'm in my final resting place, that my children,
my wife, and my family and my friends feel the
same way I felt on that day. And I always say,
I think my grandmother for giving me the second most

(22:47):
important day in my life. And that's what I feel
like my purpose is is from that moment on, my
entire life changed. I mean, the things that I chose
to do in life, the the you know things. It
was a pivotable, pivotable, pivotal point in my life, you know,
that particular experience being there, you know, thinking of how

(23:11):
I felt at that on that you know, that day
at the graveyard, you.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
See what I mean.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
So you know it was her legacy that changed, you know,
my life and made me realize, you know, that's really
what I want to do because I began to that
was the closest person who other than my grandfather, that's
the closest person who had passed away to me, right,
you know that, And so you know, her legacy made

(23:40):
me realize what life is all about because I never
really thought much about death, but at that moment, at
that time there, you know, I felt like I knew
what my purpose was and I don't think I was
ever scared, fearful of death from that moment on, you
know what I mean, I felt like, you know, that
I needed to get on this mad dash to make

(24:04):
a difference. And you know, that's my legacy? What what
what I mean? That's my purpose? What's going to be
my legacy? Is it going to be selfishness? And as
you know, the great comedian Paul Mooney used to say,
you've never seen a Brinks truck following a hurt because
you can't take any of those things.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
With you, you know.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
And even when you leave money, most people squander it
and fight over it. But when you leave goodness and
you change people's lives, then you leave something that's lasting
and that's going to benefit you in this world and
it's going to benefit you in the next world. And
that's really how I moved. I wish I could give

(24:46):
some sort of secular, prolific reason why I want to
do that, but in the following analysis, that's really you
know what I want to do. I want that's what
life is really all about.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Wow. And it's interesting how it all ties in because
you talk about this purpose that's greater than yourself, and
how that and it self inspired you from your grandparents,
and you can see your own purpose and you leaving
your legacy with everything that you do in the community.
You have to stop in frisk academy where you talk
to youth about you know, police encounters and all of that.

(25:23):
You touch on that youth community. You talk on the
radio to inform people about social justice issues that are
prominent in their communities. You try to bring this jury
reform initiative to light, to really expose the flaws within
the justice system.

Speaker 4 (25:38):
And it's really all it's interesting how it all ties
into that bigger purpose where you might not know it,
but you are actively kind of doing this expanding a greater.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Purpose through everything that you do on your daily life.
And that's amazing. And I'm sure that as a lawyer,
you definitely see other lawyers who kind of have that
sense of purpose as you do, but I'm sure you
also see other lawyers who really don't.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's kind of interesting when in
the profession and just quickly the way that.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
Specifically making my.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Choice to go to law become a lawyer, my grandfather,
you know his name, ad Reynolds, who as a little boy, I.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Spent a lot of time watching him.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
I grew up in a single parent household, so my
mother worked two jobs and my grandfather was a janitor
and at night he would clean law offices and he
with this.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
One attorney he cleaned his law office.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
His name was Tyrus Cobb, and when I was a kid,
maybe seven or eight years old, he took me in
the law library. He introduced me to Attorney Cobb and
he said, this is my grandson.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
He's going to be the next Avon Williams.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
And that's when Attorney Cobs started telling me about Avon
Williams and you know Third Good March, all these great
lawyers who changed the world. And so I left there thinking,
you know, that's what I wanted to do, right. And then,
of course, after my grandfather passed away when I was
he passed away when I was in the military, and

(27:09):
later on after that, I went to court, to Chanceery
Court regarding the name change petition that I had filed.
And when I walked in front of him, he was well,
he was actually the presiding judge. He went from being
Tyros Cobb to being the Chancellor judge. And he said,
ladies and gentlemen, I want you to meet the next
Avon Williams, and he started telling me about how great

(27:32):
of a man my grandfather was, and you know, I
became extremely emotional and left and went and you know,
went to Tennessee State and rolled and went embarked on
this journey to become a lawyer. But you know, the
type of lawyers that, being from the South, lawyers were
seen differently than they are today, you know, as a

(27:54):
you know, when I was growing up, lawyers were people
like Avon Williams, Ze Alexander Loubi, Third Good Marshall, all
these great men who were trying to change the world right.
And it wasn't the money, because money was not really
they were not known to be wealthy men. They were
just known to be men who were willing to fight

(28:14):
and stand up for people who could not stand up
for themselves. And that's what I was raised to understand
a lawyer to be. And Charles Hamilton Houston, who was
the dean of Howard University Law School and the mentor
to many great civil rights lawyers, one being Third Good Marshall,

(28:36):
who parroted the same statement that as a black lawyer,
you're either a social parasite or you're a social engineer.
And you know, and I believe that either you know,
you can be a lawyer and do nothing except suck
the life out of everything.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
You know.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
It's just like now, I mean, you know, I was
watching a game show where they said that you know
what professions are known to be liars?

Speaker 3 (29:04):
And they said lawyer was number.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
One, right, And so you know, the idea of being
a lawyer now is you know, I don't know if
it's you know, it's different.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
I think it's.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
More of a social parasite than the social engineer. And
I believe that every lawyer who has the opportunity every
day to actually touch other people and make a difference,
some people don't feel like that's their obligation of their duty.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
You know.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
I mean, I just think that's where the profession win.
And I don't think and you have to ask yourself
this question. There's a lot of Hispanic attorneys, there's a
lot of African American attorneys. There's a lot of attorneys
of different walks of life. But considering that many of

(29:52):
what goes on in the justice system hasn't changed, how
can so many people come from these communities and go
out there and get involved and you do not.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
See a more expansive change.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
And it's because, again, if you're not willing to put
it on the line, it doesn't really matter. If you
are a Hispanic judge and you are the son of immigrants,
are the daughter of immigrants, and you become an immigration judge,
what are you going to do to change things for

(30:31):
people who are being mistreated or an immigration system that
seems to be unjust what are you going to do?
If you're going to sit on the bench and just
be a face with a name that sounds Hispanic and
everybody gives you awards and pats you on the back,
then you really haven't done anything. If you're an African

(30:53):
American who basically have come from the inner cities and
understand what it's like in many different cases, whether it's
the Inner city or anywhere else, and you set up
there and you have a robe, and you get these
awards and everybody says he's a black judge, but you
don't see any changes.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
What does it matter? It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
It doesn't mean anything because the system is the problem,
of course. And if you go along with the system
and you don't do anything to make a change, then
you know, it's the same old thing. That's the reason why.
You know, it takes more than just being a face.
And if you're not will you can't just get into

(31:38):
the system and just do your job. If you're you know,
not making a change as a prosecutor, you know that
they're mistreating people, you know that their judicial discretion is
not really good as far as determining who's going to
be prosecuted or the type of sentence that's going out.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
What are you going to do If you're going to
get up.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Every day, get your paycheck and a face, it's really
not gonna matter. The same thing with being police officers.
There's been police officers, African American police officers who have
been involved in corruption, who've been involved in in you know,
abusing individuals and be and are present when it happens.

(32:21):
But if you're not going to do something from within
the system to make a change, then it doesn't really matter.
So that's where I say that basically, just you know,
if you're going to do it, and you're going you're
going to have to, they're gonna come after you.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
And if you're not ready for that, then you're not
going to make a change.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Nobody goes. I mean, if you're not doing anything.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
It's just like the legislators, like some of those legislators
right now who are getting a lot of backlash. You know,
why are they getting just recognition or are they really.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
Making a change? Right?

Speaker 2 (33:03):
You know, whether you're talking about what is the what
are the what do they call them now, the Big four,
right or whatever they call them? You know, they're you know,
that's that's part of it. I mean that you know
what's going to happen. Are they going to you know,
you're going to there's consequences, there's costs, there's no you know,
unless you're just going to go to your box and

(33:23):
just do what you're supposed to then whatever. I mean,
it's just like Clarence Thomas is a is a Supreme
Court judge? Yeah, now is there anything that he's done
in that position that's changed the lives of people of color?

Speaker 1 (33:38):
When we talk about costs and consequences of people, attorneys
and public officials, what are the specific kind of repercussions
that an attorney or a public defender or anyone in
the justice system can face or going outside the law
or using.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
The law yeah, well, I think that especially those who
are actually employed, like a public defender or a prosecutor,
then the issue is employment. I mean, obviously, you know,
they can put pressure on your employer to de terminate you.
You could, you could lose you know, your job if

(34:16):
you're not fil if you're not playing ball, because I mean,
you know, you can always.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
The whole idea about human.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Beings is that, you know, at my age, the one
thing that I've realized is that everybody makes mistakes, and
you know sometimes mistakes sometimes can be very subjective, you know,
just because you know. That's why they call it the
practice of law, because basically there is you know, to

(34:45):
you know, people kind of think about the law as
being this really black and white situation where you can
you know this is wrong, the law says this the law.
You know, that's that's how you would That's how most
people see. But the thing about the law is that
it's extremely ambiguous. That's why when you look at court decisions,

(35:09):
Supreme Court decisions, and they always talk about, you know,
what type of decision was it five four, was it six',
three was it seven to?

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Two because you have to ask yourself this. Question there's
a if.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
There's an issue of, law in, fact present it to
nine individuals and the ruling is not. Equal, right you
have a dissenting opinion who completely disagree with everybody, else
and you have the majority.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Opinion so that teaches you what is the?

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Law who is to say that the dissenting opinion is
better than the? Majority you see WHAT i? Mean and
the reason why that that that's the. Law so what
if you're what if you file or pursue something that
is seen by the justices as the minority, view, right

(36:09):
then as an, attorney someone can say you made the wrong,
decision that wasn't the right, decision and you know everything
that you do because because the way that they the
law uses words like, reasonable, right, intentional and obviously you

(36:30):
can't go inside someone's mind to make a determination as
to what's reasonable or, intentional or when we talk about
the issue of due, process or when we talk about
the issue of. Juries, Right i'm of the opinion that
if you have an individual who happens to Be African
american and the entire jury pool is, white you got

(36:54):
a problem with whether that is a fair. Jury BUT
i Think i'm, right, RIGHT i think That i'm right about.
That but you have someone else and apparently just about
everyone else that will not hasn't. Flown you can't say

(37:16):
because there's no white people on the jury that this
black man cannot get affair and impartial. Jury there's people
who believe, that and so you, know when you talk
about the issue of, consequences then it goes back to
the whole idea that as an attorney and you're practicing
law and you're fighting for certain, things your, decisions you,

(37:41):
know everything is a risk because every time you pursue,
something there's going to be some you're gonna, lose somebody's gonna.
Lose and if you, lose Like Johnny cochrane Lost geronimo price.
Trial of, course twenty years later he won the. Appeal

(38:03):
but does that make him a bad, lawyer you know
WHAT i? Mean or if he tries to do or
let's just, say his his aggressive manner in whish to
try to get that appeal or get that conviction, overturned
could that be seen as someone who is doing something?
Frivolous you see WHAT i? Mean, uh you, know everything

(38:25):
in the law is open for you, know scrutiny in
a way based upon how you see. It you, know
you can do something in a way in which you,
know you could do something that you think in your mind.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
Is okay and could be completely against the.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Law so the point is is that when you're that
the you're it's easy to get it to fall into a,
trap even when you're doing things the way you're supposed
to and even within the, system once they want to
come after, you then they can come after. You and
now oftentimes it could be something and as simple as
saying you know your, honor like for, example the way

(39:04):
That barry shak talked To Judge edough in THE. L.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
J simpson. Case someone could, say you, KNOW i don't
like the way you're talking to.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Me i'm gonna sanction. YOU i think that you're being.
Disrespectful or you may have someone who pursues an action
based upon their interpretation of the, law and the courts
could uh could sanction that, person you, know or you,
know any of any of those, things any you, know you,

(39:32):
know the filings that you do or mistakes that YOU i,
mean it's just one of those things are like even
for your you, know in some of these immigration cases
where someone is seeking, asylum there's been people who are
found to Have they could say you filed a frivolous
claim because he's From peru and nobody From peru is

(39:53):
scared to go back To, peru.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Or nobody is scared to go you.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Know it's it's it's so vast and one one person
ruling can make that. Difference or you could be, like for,
example With brown. V board Of, education the mere filing
Of brown. V board Of education could have been seen as. Frivolous.
Right let's think about Dread, scott where The United States

(40:19):
Supreme court said that you could not file a lawsuit
because An African american is not a human. Being The
Supreme court said, that so any time that you filed
a lawsuit on behalf of An African american after the
ruling In brown and after the ruling in Dread scott

(40:41):
could have been a frivolous right and he could have been,
sanctioned he could have been, suspended you could have been
disbarred because you're fighting for something that the court got, wrong,
right you. Know so that's the thing is that you
when you, know if the courts get it right all the,

(41:02):
time there's no need for, lawyers, right you don't need
a lawyer if the courts got it. Right the only
reason you need lawyers is because the courts get it
wrong all the, time, Right and so if the courts
are getting things, wrong then you got to say that
the court's, wrong or you might have to tell the
judge that he's making a bad, decision you know WHAT i.

(41:23):
Mean and so that is you, know it's almost like
saying slavery was, legal.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Not allowing black people to vote was. Legal Jim crow was.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Legal you, know all of these things that, people you
know that our country has done had been co signed
by the judicial, branch meaning that it was.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
Legal and so what are you supposed to?

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Then just imagine if we lived in a society where
we accepted what the court said with you, know plus Versus,
ferguson that's the law of the. Land that meant separate but.
Equal Jim crow was, okay you could do, that and
so if you don't challenge, it then you're you're up

(42:11):
against Something it could you, know and the only reason
is is the politics of the.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Day, yeah you see WHAT i.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Mean so in other, words there could have been time
where someone would have, said, no that's that's not a righteous.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Claim your. Argument we've already said. That we've already.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Said, that you, know you, know like for, example even
the people fighting that want to Overturn roe. V, wade
is that? FRIVOLOUS i, MEAN i think that the court
got it, right but the mere argument against. It and
if they, are if the course are always, right why
are you fighting? It you see WHAT i? Mean so

(42:50):
that's what makes the law this whole thing where it's about.
Politics so if you're going against the grain and you
have to go against the grain because the courts get
it wrong all the, time you, know and when you do,
that that's what. HAPPENS i, mean if you're if you're
making this big, splash they have to get rid of.

(43:14):
You are they going to try to get rid of
you or you, know discourage? You you do you want
to be the big bad guy that's able to go
into courts and be able to argue things for people
who are being. Mistreated that's not what they. Want they
want you to be quiet and. Conform so if you're
being quiet and you, conform then they don't have to

(43:38):
worry about. You that means that they get to rule
and do things the way that they want. To and
then when you begin to start not being, Quiet i'm
going to fight against. It you, know they, don't they
don't like. THAT i, mean who who who goes out
fighting for things and nobody comes after? Them you see
WHAT i? Mean you, Know so that's that's the. THING i,

(43:59):
mean when you make.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
Noise so most people go in and they tuck.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Their tail and they bow their, head and you, know
they treat the you, KNOW i mean Sometimes i've represented
veterans of that have got injured in.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
War, right and he's being.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Judged he is being scrutinized by a judge who never
fought in a, war a prosecutor who's never fought in a. War,
everybody the, clerk nobody in the in that courtroom has sacrificed.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
More than the guy that's been accused of the.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Crime but yet and still he has to give respect
to the judge because he wires a.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
Robe.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Right that means if you go to An Ivy league,
school you get a law, degree you go N. G
it doesn't matter whether you do court work litigation, work
but you know the right.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
People you're appointed to the bench.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
And you wear a robe that means that you have
the right to make decisions over people's lives no matter
who you. Are, now you don't think that that's going
to bump heads with somebody. ELSE i, mean that's typically
how people get. APPOINTED i, mean they run for office

(45:31):
in some, places but you, know oftentimes they get appointed as.
Well so that's another. Thing BECAUSE i ran for office
AND i got appointed to this, judgeship that that gives
me the right to you know, it it's, Politics, yeah
that's really what it. Is so you have the right
to make these laws and determine fairness when the way

(45:52):
you got into, office does that mean that you're qualified
to do, that that to make those kind of decisions
over somebody's. Life so you, know we don't question, that
you see WHAT i. Mean and there's consequences when you,
do and there's dire. Consequences and that's the reason why
our judicial, system in our system is.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
You, know.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
Ineffective that's why so many innocent people are convicted for
things that they didn't.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Do that's why the people are.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Overcharged that's why you see these prosecutors who are being
caught hiding. Evidence i've seen an interpreter in court the
other day who was telling me a story about when
they started and they.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
Happened it asked the, prosecutor.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Do you think this guy is? Guilty and the response,
was are you kidding? Me this Is Orange. County it
don't matter whether it's he's guilty or. Not ALL i
had the jury's going to convict him. Regardless and so
you have people who.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Are twenty, five twenty, six twenty, seven twenty.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
Eight years old or older who have given that type
of power over other, individuals and you, know they don't
care about. Humanity, yeah they. Don't there's not a discussion about.
Humanity i've had situations where victims have come and said

(47:19):
they lied and and and literally have prosecutors, say, well
in light of the fact that you, know the victim
had actually he's done something, BEFORE i THINK i can
still get a. Conviction you see WHAT i. Mean so
that's what you're dealing with, That and when you're fighting

(47:40):
against something like, that you're going to you, know make
enemies and people are going to try to try, to you,
know take you.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Out.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Yeah, wow that's it's almost exasperating to hear. That as
a lawyer and as an attorney who's trying to fight for,
justice you are still on the line of you, know being,
unemployed or being, sanctioned or being, yeah upheld to these
unfair consequences by the courts because you're not being that

(48:11):
officer that caters to the needs of that, system, Right
AND i guess my question, is as somebody who is
really willing to, take you, know the the consequences and
what comes with fighting for, justice what is your advice
what is your hope for the, future especially with this

(48:31):
current you, know, administration in this current political.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
System, WELL i, mean, MAN i, mean my, my my
hope is that, people you, know, somehow some way become
a little bit more not a little bit, more but
a whole lot less. Selfish, YEAH i think that, basically you,
know we're entering a time period, where you, know SOMETIMES

(48:58):
i feel like our time is running, out you, know
AND i feel like that, basically you, know we've become
so complacent that we feel like that there's not going
to be any consequences to all the dirt that we've. Done,

(49:19):
yeah and we've been given ample opportunity to address the
dirt that we've, done and, ultimately you, know we can
pay for, that you know WHAT i. MEAN i, MEAN
i truly believe that one, day, somehow some. Way you,

(49:40):
know it's just like it's not like we're the first.
Nation it felt that we were powerful than everybody, else
and you, know history teaches us, that you, know every
powerful superpower.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Has ultimately you, know you, know lost their.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
Title AND i think that now we're we've been given
chance after chance after chance to make amends for the
things that we've. Done and if we continue to, avoid you,
know our opportunity to you, know be a better nation
and make.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
UP i, mean you look at it like.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
This we charge people and hold people to standards that
we don't hold.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
Our own nation.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
To we will not allow people to do things and
make amends for things that we've done. Ourselves we talk
about you, know even prosecutors or you, know we are
very that's how we feel like we can solve every

(50:57):
problem is make a law and prosecute people and. Whole you,
know we're always we're always trying to prosecute people for making.
Mistakes AND i think that we're, so but we don't
look at ourselves as a, nation.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
You see WHAT i.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Mean so it's just, like how can you tell me
that somebody you have to pay for?

Speaker 3 (51:17):
This all these, people all these you, know whether.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
You're talking about, children uh you, know, uh sex trafficking
or trafficking children or you, know it amazes me because
we're we feel you, know people are outraged with that
type of a. Crime but to think that that's how

(51:40):
we became a nation trafficking human, beings, right and and
but nobody looks at it that.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
Way or families.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
That were split split, up, uh you know people that
were raping you, know women on these plantations who were probably,
children you, know crimes like like crimes to humanity that
would that we that that could not be met by

(52:11):
any other. Place but to my this that's that is
what it. IS i believe in forgiveness and. Redemption but
and we are a nation that we're always talking about
people taking responsibility for their. Actions AND i think until
we begin to start taking responsibilities for our own, actions

(52:35):
THEN i think that ultimately it could be our. Undoing
that's my. Fear AND i think that people aren't. Listening
there there Were i've never you, know we feel, like
you know, what nothing could ever go. Wrong you, know
we have a strong, military we have a greater common,
economy we're the strongest nation in the, world but we

(53:01):
are oppressing people and separate and still, today separating children
from their parents in two thousand and, nineteen and putting
children in cages and mentally destroying and in some cases
physically destroying, children and not one, peep not one thing

(53:22):
you you don't hear any you don't hear a country
outraged that should be literally impossible in two thousand and,
nineteen that there's no, WAY i mean it when it
comes to a child at being separated from their parents
at the disc at the you, know sanctioned by the

(53:43):
government should be something that you and and that kind
of that kind of sets if you want to know
where we are as s as a, society that you
go to the border and you go to the prisons
and you'll know what type of society that you're.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
In you see WHAT i?

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Mean AND i think that until we began to start
looking at ourselves and caring about other people other than,
ourselves then until before it's too, late THEN i think
THAT i believe that we're going to, perish, literally that
we will, lose because it's just you, know that's the

(54:22):
way the world. Works and then we've been blessed by
giving an opportunity to make amends and we didn't do.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
It it's interesting that you mentioned, that you, know we're
at this point in history where it's kind of scary
to think about everything that's going on in how people
are still being. Oppressed and with that in, mind how
can the average person contribute to this?

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Change, WELL i think, that you, know we need to
AND i keep going back to this whole idea about
not being. Selfish, YEAH i think that we have to
begin to start the average individual has to begin to
start trying to understand.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
They're fellow.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
MAN i, mean we're so you, know we're so quick
to judge other, people you, know without really truly trying to.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Understand you, know.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Some of the people with some of the highest degrees
that some of the you, know the most prestigious, institutions you,
know tend to be some of the most ignorant people
that we, know just simply because they castigate and think
certain things are you, know a certain. WAY i, mean
they're very, stereotypical and we throw people into certain groups

(55:37):
and you know that's just you, know that's our form
of training in our. Country BUT i think that my,
question my advice is to stop being trained and focus
on being.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
Educated, Right, so these.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Institutions you, know the perfect word is when someone says
that they've been trained at An Ivy league. School for,
example Ample i've Been I'm harvard, trained OR i was
trained At, Berkeley and training is a perfect. Thing BUT
i think that we have to begin to start thinking
beyond these you, know, social, economic political paradigms that we

(56:17):
kind of box ourselves. Into and because we do, that
we don't think for.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Ourselves.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Right so it's just, like for, example when we think
about the you, know AND i KEEP i hate to
keep going about going back to our commander in, chief
but let's just, say you, know when we talk about you,
know the president And trump and some of the things

(56:45):
that he, says and that many of his followers are
going to you, know blindly do what he says or
follow him, regardless AND i think that we have to
begin to, start you, know and you have to ask
yourself this question. Too and again this is this is
kind of again AND i don't want to be so completely,

(57:05):
negative but you, know he tapped into a sentiment in
this country that was.

Speaker 3 (57:15):
You, know you, know was.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Brewing you, know he did not create, It he just you,
know recognized, it exploited, it and now you, know he
kind of gives give those people are are you, know.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
You, know kind of motivate.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Those individuals to come out and do some of the
things that they would normally potentially would not, do because that,
is you, know a degree of hatred for your fellow.
Man AND i think that when you have a degree
of hatred for another human, being when you have absolutely
don't know anything about them.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Based upon the color of their.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Skin and one of the things THAT i do want
to be clear about is that it's not just white. People,
yeah you, know hatred and and and you know this whole.
Thing you, know the question IS i when we see
other individuals that come into this country from other places
that harness that same type of. Sentiment but you, know

(58:20):
even Towards African americans and and you, know you ask,
yourself you, know it's a human, problem but clearly in
this country it's it's driven by this whole idea Of european.
Supremacy and, basically you, know The european supremacy is a

(58:41):
misnomer because it isn't because they feel they. Superior it,
is you, know a degree of of of, inferiority a
significant degree of. Inferiority why someone would mistreat another person
that they deem in their head incapable, of.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
You, know being able to do.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Anything so you would not have to go out of
your way to oppress people unless you were fearful that
they may. Rise AND i think that what happens is
is that there's a sense of entitlement that we have
as human beings and anything that would in order for
you to be entitled in The United, states you have
to in some way align yourself with that supremacy. Ideology,

(59:29):
Right so in other, words when people come to The
United states and supremacy is somewhat in their mind seeing
as a matter of, entitlement you, know then when people
get relate.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
To that particular, group then it's a more of an.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Avoidance you, know they have to act this way because
IF i can identify with these, people then they will
not look at me and see WHO i, really if
that makes any. Sense and, so BUT i think until

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
We begin to change the way we are as human,
beings