KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali (Sun, 31 Aug, 2025)

KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali on Sun, 31 Aug, 2025

Episode Transcript

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NBC News Radio, I'm Rob Bartyer. A new national poll
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(04:18):
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(04:38):
or if anyone died. The CDC says six RABI deaths
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Speaker 9 (04:52):
Oka c A A.

Speaker 10 (05:17):
I'm mad.

Speaker 11 (05:20):
About to get back. We need some gift.

Speaker 10 (05:25):
Thank you for tuning in for this edition of Justice
Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali. I am Attorney Zulu Ali
with a Justice Watch crew. ROSA New Ye's Michael Blau Clark,
doctor Kilbasher, Andrew Rohdeman, and Ryan Rose. This week, like
every week, we'll be talking about critical legal and social
justice issues that are impacting our communities. This week we

(05:47):
have our topic is black trauma and its impact on
criminal justice. And today joining us is a very very
special guest, Brother Anthony Sharif Nicks. Brother Nicks was born
December thirteenth, nineteen seventy two, in Butler County, Alabama. He
is a powerful voice for resilience, restorative justice, and community transformation.

(06:11):
The only son among four siblings, Anthony's early life was
shaped by the effects of his father's military related PTSD.
His parents divorced and then moved from rural Alabama to Riverside, California.
By age eleven, he was in he was entangled in
gain culture, leading to a turbulent adolescence of instability, incarceration,

(06:35):
and ultimately a life term prison sentence at nineteen. In
October nineteen ninety five, inspired by the Menu Man March
and his embrace of Orthodox Islam, Anthony began a profound
journey of discipline, healing, and transformation. His leadership grew through
his involvement with the Timeless Group, where he advanced from

(06:57):
participant to facilitator and body in personal accountability and restorative principles.
After serving twenty one years, he was released in twenty twelve,
committed to using his experience as a catalyst for change.
Since his release, Anthony has become a certified Trauma Recovery Coach,
Peers Support Specialists, Applied positive Psychologist, and senior facilitator with

(07:23):
ECHOS Trauma Informed Non Violent Parenting Program. He is also
the creator and facilitator of Boys Transform, a writer passage
program empowering young men to embrace character, purpose, and healthy identity.
Beyond his service direct service work, Anthony extends his impact

(07:48):
through civic engagement. He is currently a member of Crime
Survivors of Safety and Justice. He serves as a trustees
for the Lancaster Museum Art Foundation, where he helps bridge
culture and history and last but not least, today Anthony

(08:11):
Nick stands as a mentor, facilitator and advocate who transfer
personal adversity into collective empowerment, offering pathways of dignity, safety
and hope for.

Speaker 11 (08:23):
The next generation.

Speaker 10 (08:24):
So brother, I appreciate you man, Thank you so much
man for joining us man on this very very important
topic and there's nothing but an honor and privilege to
have you join us today.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
So appreciate you. No, it's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 10 (08:39):
Yeah, yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. So yeah, I
know that you also have been you know, very supportive
and have been involved in our program, which is the
Stopping Frisk Academy. Yes, and you know, we've had the
pleasure of having you to talk to the youth about
the issue of trauma. And it's something that that you

(09:01):
are very passionate about and something that you know, you're
very knowledgeable about. And I think that it's something that
we very seldom like to talk about, you know, in
our community, you know, especially as men and and and
dealing with, you know, the issues of trauma, because everybody,
you know, that's kind of like we kind of see
that somewhat of a weakness, you know when we talk

(09:23):
about you know, trauma and and some of the issues
that we that we face, you know, as as human
beings in general, but especially you know for us as
as black men, and we see a lot of that.
So I guess I want to begin by just talking about,
you know, what what is trauma? I mean, how how
how do we define that.

Speaker 12 (09:44):
Well, first of all, I want to say that you know,
I appreciate you invite me to this space to talk
about trauma, because not only do I talk about it
as far as from an expert, as far as training goes,
but through the experience. You know, I grew up in
a household of domestic violence that resulted in me seeking

(10:07):
out my identity in the streets.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
That also, UH, that was traumatic. You know, the screech
was traumatic.

Speaker 12 (10:15):
And again ultimately that when you discussed about UH in
my bio, that how I ended up in conserrations. But
getting to the question of trauma, UH, trauma has evolved
over time.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
UH.

Speaker 12 (10:28):
Initially when we talked about trauma, when trauma was introduced
to mainstream, UH, we understood it to be PTSD, which
is post traumatic stress disorder, right, and it was primarily
associated with the military. UH, the same thing that my
father in my younger years was diagnosed and was suffered
from up into his passing. But over time we come

(10:51):
to understand that PTSD or trauma just don't affect soldiers
in war.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
UH.

Speaker 12 (10:58):
It can be any event that can be catastrophic as
far as a car accident or any type of Again,
the domestic violence, it can be community violence. So it
doesn't took on many forms. So you know, it's now
described as toxic stress. Anything that produces toxicity as for

(11:21):
a stress levels, that is traumatic, right, And that's what
we as peer for sports specialists and as psychologists, you know,
we try to simplify it for the people. You know
what I mean, if you really want to know trauma,
you know, I mean, look at it in the form
of toxic stress.

Speaker 11 (11:37):
Right. Wow.

Speaker 10 (11:39):
So so now that we talked about a little bit
about the idea of trauma, Now, how does that when
we talk about trauma, how does that kind of you know,
manifest itself specifically as it relates to the Black community,
or does it you know, manifest them of relations specifically

(12:01):
to our community.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yes, and by many ways.

Speaker 12 (12:07):
First and foremost, I want to say that in most cases,
based on statistics, trauma you know, is based on and
it can be found in childhood, you know, I mean,
based on your upbringing, based on your environment, right, property, uh,
social economic uh, and political circumstances uh. Dealing with again

(12:29):
you know by you know, bigotry, prejudice, all of that
stuff has a profound effect about what shapes the young
mind that altomely turns into adults, you know, to where
we're helped really accountable, you know. But that's what it's
primarily found, is based in your younger experiences. And then

(12:50):
it spans out now as far as Black people.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Uh, coming from.

Speaker 12 (12:57):
A history where we can describe it as a travesty,
you know, when we talk about people of slaves, when
we're talking about Jim Crow, when we're talking about community
policing and its abuses, all that has shaped the black trauma,

(13:18):
All that has shaped Black trauma. And the end results
is that is again it's the symptoms in which we
have criminalized, you know, a lot of things. When it
comes to the criminal justice system and Blacks acting out
based on their experiences, it's crimes, you know. They they

(13:39):
they're they're acting out or expressing themselves in a way
in which society has deemed as a nuisance and not
viewed as.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
A cry for help. But it's really our cry for help.

Speaker 12 (13:51):
But but but on a larger scale of society, we
look at it as people who need to be detained
and removed from society for safety reasons. Right, So black
trauma is rooted and just that though when I talk
about safety, it's a lack of safety.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
That's the root. Root calls a black trauma is a
lack of safety.

Speaker 10 (14:15):
You know something that's really interesting yesterday, in fact, we
did a we did a video yesterday with Rosa and
Anthony uh Okay, and you know, one of the things
that we It's interesting because the you know, sometimes we
do these videos that we produce and we use them

(14:35):
for the radio and also we use them sometimes just
to put them on social media to talk about particular subjects.
And the actual initial topic for the video was supposed
to be the state versus the black, the brown and
the poor that I was going to Actually that's how
it actually started. Ironically, I began to start talking about

(14:59):
you using, because I was having a difficult time articulating
the mindset, and so I began to start It became
easier for me when I started talking about the plantation system.
And you know, and the more you think about the
issue of the plantation system, or even when you think
about being incarcerated, right, I mean, although I've never been incarcerated,

(15:26):
I've worked in law enforcement and I've been around a
lot of people who have been incarcerated, and you know,
One of the things that you notice about people who
are incarcerated incarcerated is you know, you can tell a
person who has maintained an incarcerated mindset, right, how it

(15:49):
You know, it's just like going to boot camp, right
when you go into the military. And you know, there
were some effects of me being in boot camp. You know,
when I came home, I was I was a little crazy, right,
I mean, because it got it got into my head.
And I think that we underestimate the significance of the

(16:10):
generational aspect of how the plantation was the foundation of
Black America for three centuries or more, right, yes, And
so you think about the the thes and the psychosis
of how our ancestors were on the plantation and how

(16:32):
they socialize with each other, and and it's it's almost
the same. The way that they socialized with us, and
the way we socialize with them in many ways is
very much still related to the plantation system, right, and
in a mindset. And then I think, I think I
do believe, and you can correct me if if I'm wrong.

(16:54):
I believe that trauma can be generational.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
We knew it to be.

Speaker 12 (17:00):
We know it to be, you know, And I just
want to interject something in there, based on you talking
about the plantation and that whole relationship in that experience,
is that trauma is three hundred and sixty degree impactful.
What I mean by that trauma is not just centralized
with just black people being abused, their abusers too. If

(17:21):
you track it down, if you research it, if you
can study it, you will realize that the perpetrators also
have been traumatized. Right, So there's a perpetual effect here.
In peer work, we say that hurt.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
People, hurt people, hurt people.

Speaker 12 (17:38):
So even though we can see the acts of the
harm and the loss and all of that, but we
never consider our give pause to on what's the motivation,
you know, mean of the perpetrator. And sometimes that's where
you got to start because that explains a lot that
comes right after, as for as a ripper effect on

(17:59):
how it going down through that generational effect like that.
But there's a source, right and again that have to
be included in the discussion when we talk about black
trauma is the very people that inflicted upon us the
traumatic events is also people of trauma.

Speaker 10 (18:16):
You know, what I always think about is that in
nineteen ninety one I went to Houston's Negotiations School and
part of and you know, at the time, it really
didn't you know, I didn't really think much about it.
But you know, part of what we would do is
we would listen to the audios of people who were

(18:36):
taking hostage and it was kind of it was interesting
because what they would do is they would kind of
give you the you know, like how the guys asking
for certain things with the negotiator and then they start
and as it goes, you will hear people in the
background and initially those people seem terrified and eventually, you know,

(19:00):
we would hear them saying, come on, give him what
he wants, and it was almost like they were turning
on the people the negotiator, and you could tell that
they were sympathizing and empathizing with the hostage taker. Right,
And you know, I take that is that over And

(19:20):
the thing is is that if you take someone as
a hostage, then there is I mean, like an hour.
If you were taken as a hostage for an hour,
it is it is a recognized fact that you need
to be debriefed for one hour. Being taken as an
hostage for one hour, you need to be debriefed because

(19:40):
the middle the psychological impact of correct. So can you
can you imagine living that twenty four hours without it
without being debriefed?

Speaker 11 (19:53):
Yes, you know what I mean.

Speaker 10 (19:55):
And it's to say it's like you clearly recognize the
impact of that psychle logical but you know psychological impact
of being taken hostage. So it's the same thing and
same thing with domestic violence. Yes, you know, they recognize it.
Even they got specialists when you charge with domestic violence,

(20:16):
they have specially the state brings specialists to testify about
the impact of domestic violence. Correct, even when it's not
physical or human trafficking or pimping. Right, they have all
these these specialists that talk about it. But when it
comes to our trauma, then it's like get over it, right.
But I just want to kind of interject on that

(20:38):
when you begin to talk about that trauma, but also
the question that I had, you have something you want
to input behind it?

Speaker 12 (20:46):
Yes, miss, I mean I also want to say this too,
when it comes down to how our experiences are being
minimized even among ourselves. We you know, when you have
started you say, how we shy away from that whole
discussion and we really don't like to try to, you know,
to addressing in the sense of therapy or even just

(21:09):
in open groups. But we also look at it as
far as we need to get over it.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
I'm talking about black people.

Speaker 12 (21:15):
Black people that we know for show they done went
through some stuff and need some healing. Not just some healing,
need a professional person that help them navigate it. Will
dismiss it, will minimize it, saying that that was something
of the past. That ain't that ain't you know why
that ain't relevant?

Speaker 9 (21:35):
No more.

Speaker 12 (21:35):
I'm trying to be in the prison. I'm trying to
be progressive, so you got our own. People that don't
went through the most also does not want to address
the experience in its full contacts, in the context I
wanted to share that with you.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
It ain't just other people, it's us.

Speaker 12 (21:51):
Also is again dismissing it, minimizing you know what I mean,
don't want to see it for what its full effects are.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
We don't. That's one of my biggest.

Speaker 12 (22:01):
Struggles in peer work with our people is is trying
to justify therapy. Yeah, why do I have to justify
therapy when you already admit that you're in pain?

Speaker 13 (22:12):
Yeah, you know I wanted to say something. You know,
on the onset you was talking about how a lot
of your experience is growing up, you know, and a
home with domestic violence that kind of shape you, right,
that was that trauma that you experienced. Does trauma come
from like social media news? You know? How in other words,

(22:34):
how we're brought up in our household and our children.
We express to them certain things that happen in society,
how to be careful, Like we go through the stopping fists, Oh,
you got to be careful with the police, so forth,
and so on, and it's like we.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Tell them about it. Do you believe that actually.

Speaker 13 (22:54):
Keeps them in the mold of being traumatized by what
they see on the news media with police being you know, uh,
black people being harassed, so forth, and so on. And
the reason I bring it up is because my son
got put over for the first time in his life
just from running down the street this past week and
he said that he came home and he said Dad,
and he was kind of shook up, but he kind

(23:15):
of laughed it off. But I can tell, you know,
him being my son, I can tell that he was
shook because this was the first time he experienced it,
and he been to stopping fists, so he knows what
to say and what not to say. But he felt
so nervous that he like, he felt inclined. Okay, I
gotta give him my name, I gotta tell him where

(23:36):
I'm going, because he was nervous. But then when they
start asking him his address, he was like, well, I
don't feel comfortable with telling you that, you know, but
he was shook. And so he was shook because of
what he learned through stop and fists, of what he's
seeing through the media that look, if I don't corroberate,
I can I could be end up, you know, laying
on his street dead. And I believe that that aspect

(23:58):
of it is trauma within hisself.

Speaker 12 (24:01):
Yes, what do you highlight is is across the board
that incident of your son is how the majority of
us is responding to those type of encounters, not just
encounters of the law enforcement, but anything when where we
feel uncomfortable, but yet we feel compelled to comply right,
you know, I mean, even if it's wrong as far

(24:22):
as what I'm saying, it's someone infringing upon your rights.
One of the components of trauma is fear, fear self.
You know what I mean, is what's driving that whole
traumatic experience is that fear. What we need to understand
is trauma is not what's happening to us outside of ourselves.
Trauma is an actual and internal experience. Is our internal

(24:44):
perception of what's happening to us. That's what's traumatic. It
ain't actually being in a car accident or getting hit
in the head.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Or being shot. That ain't it. It's how you.

Speaker 12 (24:54):
Internally is responding and experiencing that whole thing. That's what
they say. And trauma really is it's an internal act
or emotion or again sensation that's going on.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Right, So all of us experienced this though. It's what
I'm trying to say.

Speaker 12 (25:11):
It ain't just your son dealing with a situation I
can I can guarantee you that we could all look
back in our lives, be it in the workplace, be
it dealing with our neighbor when we you know, we
felt we were doing something wrong and they and they
was improperly in questing to us about some things about
our household. They need be talking to our parents about
You mean all of that, You know what I mean?
All of that stuff right there is based on these

(25:34):
that internal workings on us that compels us to cooperate
when we feel nervous.

Speaker 10 (25:42):
It kind of reminds me of when you talk about
you know, the you know, the things that we say
on television and some of the things that we see
in social media, you know, and we often talk about
this thing about internalized racism. I think internalized racism is
like the and that's what happened really in when you

(26:02):
think about the plantation situation. And I was kind of
talking about the fear right, so in other words, I
mean we've gone through a you know, this whole decades
of using our men to make examples of them. Yes, right,

(26:24):
so you know, from you know, whipping them in front
of the other slaves, right the trump the trauma that does,
until hanging them right so that they leave them hanging there,
castrating them so that everybody.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Can see them.

Speaker 10 (26:41):
The leaders that we had, and they've all been you know,
crucified or killed right to let you know what's going
and we know through coin tailpro that they had an
incentive to let you see what would happen to the messiahs.
Right then, what we've seen as far as the police,

(27:03):
the policing and how they come into the communities and
you know, do certain things in front of certain people
so that everybody knows. This is kind of what happens,
right if you do the wrong thing, like you know,
like showing everybody like you know, I'm King Kong, you know,
shoe program. Then then you start seeing our successful men

(27:31):
who one by one by one are being somehow some
way put into the criminal justice system, those who are
getting ready to do big things, yes, right, and then
we've seen them some of the most the ones we've
seen as heroes, the one that we've seen that you know,
financially and otherwise, they've you know, taken the criminal justice

(27:53):
system to do a public lenchon of them, you know
what I mean, making it so much that when you
do get a level of success, you're fearful that they're
going to come after you, so you can't speak out
for your own people.

Speaker 11 (28:09):
Right.

Speaker 10 (28:10):
For what we saw even in sports with Dion Sanders
and his kids right right, that what they were doing
is a public lenchen exactly, and all that is internalized
and it's a degree of trauma, you know what I mean.
When you look at Dion Sanders and then you look

(28:31):
at the Manning kids. You know, Archie Manning was very
much involved in his kids life and made it very
clear what dictated what his kids were not going to
do and what they were going to do, no question.
When Di undid it, it's like, no, wait a minute,
you need to know your place.

Speaker 11 (28:47):
Maybe you're worth.

Speaker 10 (28:48):
Fifty million dollars, but you know what I mean, this
is what we're going to do to you.

Speaker 12 (28:52):
So I want to add to that as far as
genetic memory when we talked about you know what you
was high lighting, as far as public mentions, as far
as our so you know, our leaders, I won't even
don't even want to say so called. Anyone that's put
out front, you know, I mean that we are viewed of,
that children have attention to look up to and to model,

(29:13):
is a leader, right regardless we agree or disagree on
if that's a leader for ourselves or for our children.
But still that's a leader because they are out front.
But that can trigger from a hidden memory in our
mind and our genetic about that fear that we're trying
to describe to people, trying to get the artists to
understand and how to stay safe in that circumstances as

(29:37):
far as our silence, our lack of advocating for ourselves
or for our community, or standing up for our leaders right.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
One of the things.

Speaker 12 (29:45):
Too that that I come to learn through my research
and through things that I've been exposed.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
To is.

Speaker 12 (29:53):
Part of the inactivity of the black community as for
it to change in our condition is a freeze response.
I really do want people to understand that this is
not a conscious act. And that's one thing. Another thing
about the reactions or responses of trauma that ain't something
thought out, You know what I mean, When you accepted

(30:13):
to something that costs you to be afraid and you
want to fight back, or you want to run, or
you freeze up, that's a response that don't take thoughts.
We have been programmed genetically as far us through they
say from the ca man through evolution that it's automatic
things just like when you get hit your knee and
the kick out. That's what trauma does. That's for us
in response are inactivity to respond appropriately most times to

(30:37):
our circumstances to improve our conditions is a free response.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
It really is.

Speaker 12 (30:42):
We lock up and don't even know why until it's
explained to them. Because once it's been identified. Now we
addressing stuff, but it has to be identified. People don't
even know why they're in the responsible like they can't move,
or they can't think, or they're not like a right man.
And you ain't doing nothing about your situation. You know,

(31:03):
we asked our said ourselves that, but we're not We
don't consider it, not for a second though.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Sometimes we just.

Speaker 12 (31:08):
Don't think about what internally that person is experiencing. That's
why they say, don't ask what you're doing or what's
wrong with you?

Speaker 1 (31:17):
What happened to you.

Speaker 12 (31:19):
That's one of the things that we have to get
back to is being concerned about what the person is
going through to try to figure out why they behaving
and responding the way they are. We need to know this.

Speaker 10 (31:32):
Yeah, and it's and it's you know, there's a lot
of you know, self hate that goes along with I mean,
you know again, it's almost like you it's it's a
defense mechanism, yes, And so you know from the perspective
that I think that a lot of people when you're

(31:54):
in a certain space, for example, and I know I'm
going to go back to how that manifest itself in
the criminal acts, but you know, I was when we
were talking about this yesterday. The one thing I was
thinking about is, you know, being put in a situation,
for example, like you're in the house and let's just

(32:17):
say that, you know, you're in the house and you
living good, and you got the bed and you know
they're giving you something, right, and then you got those
who are actually in the in the slave quarters or
in the shacks, sleeping on the floor. Yes, And you
know what happens when you're sleeping in the house is

(32:40):
you know, what are the consequences if you do something?

Speaker 11 (32:45):
Are you gonna go?

Speaker 10 (32:45):
Are they gonna put you back out in the field.
And what happens is when we are in those spaces
that would potentially allow us to do something for our people,
then oftentimes the people who are in the field aren't
going to do anything. If you put yourself on the
line when you're in the house. It's like if I

(33:09):
come out here and i'm you know, you say you're
going to run away, So I'm like, okay, let's run away.
You want me to rebel. If I go out here
and I rebel, then are you going.

Speaker 11 (33:21):
To you know, are you going to participate?

Speaker 10 (33:26):
You know what I mean, and then we ultimately it's
a crowd and a barrel type of mentality where we
always you know, the whole h N I C because
we think that there's only so many of us that
are going to be allowed to do certain things. And
the only power that you have on the plantation is
the power over your own people. And so whenever you know,

(33:48):
when you take a man needs power. A man basically
by nature, you know, wants to be a man, right,
and whatever space you're going to allow me to be
a man in, I'm going to take advantage of that.
And so if I'm in the street, you know what
I mean, working, I mean, so when the police come by,

(34:10):
then why why I'm not ra Rah you know the
monster that I am with everybody else? Yes, I can't
be the you know, I can't go and be that
monster with the police come because when the police come,
I'm acting weak. But when it comes to my own people,
because I'm giving the space to be a man, I'm

(34:33):
taking out the fact that you have. You know, like
when you look at the civil rights posters, there's so.

Speaker 11 (34:41):
Many of them that says I'm a man.

Speaker 13 (34:43):
Yeah, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, And you have to be that.

Speaker 10 (34:47):
That's just like when you in relationships, you know what
I mean. You know, a man, a man that's in
a relationship with a woman that minimizes his impact to
be a man.

Speaker 11 (34:59):
It's a terrible relations ship to be in correct, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 10 (35:02):
A man is looking for a woman that's going to
allow him to be a man that might not be
There's probably some views.

Speaker 11 (35:07):
That don't want to hear that that's true. You know,
let me be a man.

Speaker 10 (35:11):
And then if you you know someone's pushing back on
you and allowing you not to be a man, there's you.

Speaker 11 (35:16):
Know, it impacts you. You know what I mean. It's like,
let me be a man, stand behind me, let me
you know what I mean. Then you want to be
in a space.

Speaker 10 (35:25):
Now you're going to put me in a situation where
you know, you're going to embarrass me in front of
my wife, my kids, and let me look like I'm
not a man. You know, that's a problem. And so
I think that a lot of times and correct me
if I'm wrong when we are in these situations. At
least I'm sure there's other things too. But part of
what I see in the community where you have people

(35:48):
who are able to exert their power over other people,
you know, when it comes to the street politics. It's
a necessity of us as human beings to be able
to to have some sort of.

Speaker 12 (36:02):
Power, correct, right, No, I absolutely agree because one of
the things us as children, if we didn't have a
cultivating environment, we have a lot of insecurities, a lot
of self doubt, image issues. So if I'm a person
that already feel inadequate, you know, if I feel challenged

(36:24):
or have a way to assert myself to get my
makeingsels feel.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Strong, I'm gonna do just that.

Speaker 12 (36:29):
You can believe that, because that's in our nature to
do that, to be assertive. But it's the conditioning though.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
I'm saying.

Speaker 12 (36:35):
If my environment have me docile, but yet I know
that goes against my nature. Anytime I have an opportunity
to exert myself in that way, even be through aggression, I'm.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Gonna do that, you know.

Speaker 12 (36:48):
And that's one of the unfortunate issues with are at
risk hues, what we call at promise is that the
biggest issue with our kids is a lack of automony.
Automany it meaning of their independence, you know what I mean,
lack a power you know what I mean, not being
given a voice. That's what's driving that rebellion. Not just

(37:09):
because they're menaced, they're not. They not literally waking up
in the morning thinking I'm gonna be a menace, a terrorist,
I'm an evil person. That ain't what's happening with these
young people. They're they're trying to exist. They're trying, even
I even heard be seen. So if they have to
act terribly to get their attention, even though it might
be at first it ain't, it ain't healthy. But again,

(37:31):
they're doing something in response to a basic need. They
just want to be see me and hear me. So
imagine you get to the point of a grown adult
though all his life, he's been suppressed all his life,
he's been ignored all his life, He's been made to
feel insignificant.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
That's a beast, I'm telling you.

Speaker 12 (37:54):
When he finally get out of that muddle and say, elfet,
you know what I mean, the world gonna see me
one way or other, that's a beast. This is what
we're dealing with with the criminals justice system at that time.
When we say, man, that was a Hainus act. Man,
that was wild stuff. When you talk to his mama
and his grandmama and the family. They said, no, you

(38:16):
know what I mean, we didn't know. You know, he
ain't an evil person like that. We don't know why
he did that. But I'm saying that his needs wasn't
being met even among that same family that loved him,
and trying to justify why.

Speaker 11 (38:30):
You know, the.

Speaker 12 (38:32):
Loved one is not that evil, but still you did
not equip him as through with cultivation to shine with
his good qualities. I promise you, the majority of people
incost rated today, based on statistics, have what they call
adverse childhood experiences and based on these social markets, as

(38:53):
far as psychology goes, if you have five or more,
you're more prone to be a criminal. And I promise you,
if you, if you, we can survey it. As far
as get the data, we can show that the majority
of people in costrated, if they use those markers, they
have five or more.

Speaker 10 (39:11):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's way, it's way. I mean,
I tried. It's a very difficult. It's very difficult to
explain and and and articulate that issue to two people.
I was in court the other day and and I
was there was a so called gang expert that said

(39:34):
that if you're a member of a certain street gang,
you would have a tattoo of a particular baseball team
on your arm or or you know, wearing a hat.
And so I said, well, what if somebody that happens
to be black, that's walking in a particular neighborhood is
wearing that tattoo, would he be automatically considered to be

(39:55):
a gang member? Of course, he said no, But the
reality of it is, it's true, you know, they just
assume that you're going to be part of that particular
you know gang. And so what happens is that when
you are constantly harassed by police and stop for no
reason because of their you know, stereotypes, then eventually it

(40:19):
triggers something in you, right, especially when you're young.

Speaker 11 (40:24):
And then other people.

Speaker 10 (40:26):
And then on the other hand, a deputy says, well,
you know, yeah, if you are out there like that,
if you had a father in a home, you would
not be walking around with that particular hat on or
that particular tattoo, or maybe hanging around in that particular park. Yes,
And so now what you're doing, you're getting it from
both sides. You're going to get stopped. You know, because

(40:49):
they may stereotype you.

Speaker 11 (40:50):
To be a gang member.

Speaker 10 (40:53):
But then you're also having your parents that are telling
you there's certain things you can't do, which you know
it's true. But at the same time, there is some
psychosis that goes along with telling someone that the world
is different and treats you different and you and you
have to mentally prepare someone to be you know, different

(41:19):
and expect those things. It does, and it can trigger
something in certain people. And so that's the reason why
I think that you know, the trauma that that we're
dealing with as as people, that's the reason why. And
you know the sometimes you need a large dose of

(41:41):
something to counteract that type of of conditioning. That's why
I you know, you people always say, and I remember
and your mom says, have you ever noticed that the
people that did the most dirt and the dunia are
the most.

Speaker 11 (41:58):
Religious people, you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 (42:00):
Because you almost need that to counteract that trauma. You
need that such a heavy dose of it that you
know there's no room for You've gone so far right
that the only way to deal with is go all
the way to the.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Left, you know what I mean.

Speaker 10 (42:19):
That's why the nation was always so successful at transforming
people who came out of the criminal justice system. They
they that psychosis of No matter what you think about
the theology, it was a program that made you believe
that you were you needed to believe.

Speaker 11 (42:38):
That you were a king?

Speaker 10 (42:41):
Yes, right, So how can you know that's you needed
that such a big dose of that to change your mind? Correct?

Speaker 11 (42:48):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 10 (42:49):
And they and he understood I had to do something
to their mind to get them to come back.

Speaker 11 (42:54):
I can't just you know, I had to you know.

Speaker 12 (42:56):
Yeah, Well, when I want to add to that too,
because I who hardly agree, but I want to package
it like this, when our community is being under attack,
which by removing the males out the home, the black
males at the home, introducing you know, substance in our

(43:17):
communities as for a drugs, alcoholism and all of that.
Also what was removed from us, not just the male
got removed out of home. But I write a passage.
I can't emphasize enough that when you're talking about children
and shaping minds and ultimately predicting outcome as far as
behaviors kids based on tradition, based on if you look

(43:41):
at our conditioners practices have to be initiated into this
adult that we expect them to be. We can't leave
it up to them, and we'll lost that when we
have our own issues based on that toxic stress I
talked about, when we have our own issues by being
so overly distracted with trying to make living or that

(44:02):
fear of what's going on in the world, and we
start neglecting our kids as far as training goes, as
far as home meg.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Or you know whatever.

Speaker 12 (44:10):
But the whole point of letting a child know at
an appropriate age that you're no longer a child, that
you're growing into a young adult or adulthood. That is
so relevant. I'm talking about relevant beyond what I can
express to you how relevant is and I believe as
far as our community when it comes to the black
trauma and the criminal justice system, that's what we're feeling
the most. We're feeling by initiating these boys and girls

(44:34):
into adulthood. Just like any other culture, if you look
at the world as a whole and really examine why
they're successful. For those who stands out, you know, the Asians,
the Airs and cercculations in Africa and all of that,
there's an initiation that takes place in that culture at
some point in age for boys and girls where they

(44:55):
realize that they're accountable, not just accountable for their self,
but as a societ as a whole. We as African
American people or indigenous people here in America, as the
only ones, can't agree as a rite of passage. We
cannot find some uniformity or some commonality or how we
going to initiate our boys and girls into these men
and women. We do it on our own, and some

(45:17):
people as successful, but your success don't transfer to me.
We need a program or system or culture that can
be as transferable to all of us of the same
similar experience to where we can predict outcome that these
boys and girls be men and women that we desire.

Speaker 13 (45:36):
But do you think we ignore a lot of that trauma?
In other words? In other words, every day I believe
that we experience some form of trauma, whether it be
driving down the street and looking over your shoulder because
you're seeing the police pass by, whether it be you know,
all of these things come into play to me when

(45:57):
I think about trauma. As you talk, and I'm thinking
about all of these things that I experience in life
just daily, you know, about just the response I have
to have and the things that I internalize. And then
once I internalize it because I don't realize it, I
take it home to the family and then it comes
out in me and the family, whether it be the job,
every day grind, trying to make it. You know, all

(46:19):
of this stuff is a combination. But then when you
tell me like you said, when you tell me, nah, man,
you're doing too much. You need a little bit therapy.
Now I want to get big headed because I don't think, no, no, nah,
I don't need know therapy, and so we bag away
from it. But in all reality, as long as we
continue to deny it, that trauma continued to exist and

(46:42):
we continue to pass it down. And it's just like
what Zulu said, the nation was able to take people
out and once you know how they say, you can't
correct the problem until you first recognize that you have
with us, and I think that it goes on in
a cycle. It continues on because we fail to We
don't want to reconni we don't feel, we don't want
to feel like you said we you know, but once

(47:03):
we do, then we can grabs hold on it and
then we can teach, you know, our youth, and we
can teach the people that's coming under us that this
is how you have to cope with this, or this
is how you have to deal with this, you know.
And I think that's accoutus for all of the disunity
that we see amongst each other. It's because we've been
so traumatized, so we can't trust each other, right true,

(47:26):
so we no, no, give me this for a dollar
ninety nine. No, you know, it's it's a whole it's
a whole gamut to this man.

Speaker 12 (47:34):
Man well, msster ALEI you if I may, you know
what he just said. You know, I have a few
other men that I deal with, and we have a
men's group called the Men's Group Collaborative because we go
to other men's group and we try to see if
we can unify as far as identify with men issues
and come up with applicable solutions. There's three things that

(47:58):
we have identified as far as why men it's not
showing up in spaces correctly, be it in their home,
in their community, and as far as advocacy. Those are
the three things that we concentrate on why men it
is not there? I'm saying those spaces like over eighty
five percent women. When I say as far as showing up,
I'm talking about literally showing up in these spaces of family, community,

(48:19):
and advocacy. And we're trying to change that because my
dialogue with women is that they want the men to
show up. It ain't like they don't want the men
to show up because they do something. You know, no woman,
you know, live type of thing. No, no, no, no,
men are just not showing up. So what we have
identified is three things. First thing is mental health as
far as depression. That is crippling the black men in

(48:41):
our community based on trauma, but it's depression. The second
thing is a lack of respect. They don't feel that
their voice is respected in the spaces that we're asking
them to show up, be it they family, be at
they community, to advocate. They feel that nobody want to
hear what they're saying anyway, right. And the third is
of other men. So it go back to what you're saying.

(49:02):
I mean, that's the third prominent reason that we have
identified and I can say that based on research on
why we're not showing up, you know what I mean,
And that where we have to find solutions and remedies
to that and to regain back that resiliency that that
that's necessary those spaces, right, So going back to that,
the last one is for us to distrust one another. Wow,

(49:25):
you don't even understand how crucial that is because us
by ourselves, based on the heavy lift that we have
to deal with as far as the world and this
problems and all of that we are faced, that's threatening
our existence. That's overbearing I'm talking about. That is so
way for an individual.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
We need each other.

Speaker 12 (49:43):
I mean, we absolutely the men need other men to
support them as far as the lift that we have,
you know what I mean, and in the mission that
we have, you know that's.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Ahead of us. Right.

Speaker 12 (49:52):
So if we don't, I'll tell you, if we don't
find a way to repair the damage that we have
caused amongst each other, learn how to apologize, hellever, how
to forgive and to set boundaries. If we don't try
to get that right or perfect that we're gonna get,
it's gonna get worse. It's what I'm saying because right now,

(50:13):
if you look at our worth, our youth, our youth
right now is being targeted. They was targeting us as
far as the ones that what Miss Ali always points out,
the civil rights you know what I mean, even through
the nation and all that. That's when we had a
lot of strength going on, you know what I mean,
the forties to fifties, sixties, right, it was powerful the seventies.
So they targeted the men, you know what I mean,

(50:33):
and the women adults, is what I'm saying. But now
that you get down into twenty twenty five, it's our youth,
I'm telling you, through the imastry, through social media, reducing
them down to kids states. As far as these games,
you know what I mean, and not taking other key
essentials of life important, you know what I mean. You know,
as far as ownership and again you know, generational wealth.

Speaker 5 (50:57):
We hear that.

Speaker 12 (50:58):
Talk, but if you lose it was being portrayed on
what we need to imitate. That ain't what you've see, right,
So we have to repair what's been made wrong or
win a win, a win, a straight offline.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Right.

Speaker 12 (51:15):
As far as that trust, I don't want you. We
know mental health is necessary. We got to rectify that.
We also know that or that misconception. We got to
erase that misconception that our voices is not relevant or
is not needed, but I believe it needs to start
with us again shaking hands one more time.

Speaker 11 (51:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (51:34):
Again, I go back and I think that when we
look at the history of of of of Black America
and we think, I think that not to. I think
everybody had good intentions, and I think that all of
the movements were very powerful and the objectives were very noble.

Speaker 11 (51:57):
Right.

Speaker 10 (51:58):
But I'm of the opinion that as I look back
and I think of all the you know, the Civil
rights movement, which was focused on allowing them to give
us a seat at the table. That was basically most
of the movements. Then you had some of the you know,

(52:18):
Pan Africanist movements, which was you know, the Marcus Garvey
and that, you know type of movement, which I think
in I'll probably get a lot of flak for this,
but I don't think it was as practical.

Speaker 11 (52:36):
But the movement.

Speaker 10 (52:39):
And I'm going to say this, I mean, I'm not
in the nation in fact, I've never been in the
Nation temple, So I'm saying this objectively. I'm just looking
at the movements and what happened that the idea that
you're going to build a nation, and you know, obviously
they had their issues. We know the issues that they

(52:59):
had with the individuals, but the blueprint was was a
good blueprint because now when we see ourselves going forward
and really looking at how we're really going to correct
the problem, all the things that you're talking about, like
what we're doing right now is we're talking about, you know,

(53:23):
getting into politics and being involved in your local government.

Speaker 11 (53:27):
And that's cool.

Speaker 10 (53:28):
We're talking about you know certain you know, local initiatives
and protesting, and you know the economic development and you know,
generational wealth.

Speaker 11 (53:41):
That's cool.

Speaker 10 (53:43):
But what we need is to build a nation correct
and if we don't when you talk about trusting each other,
when you talk about the issue of what you think
of yourself, right, what you think of someone who looks
like you, building yourself up, the discipline, those sort of things,

(54:08):
we you know, we have to have a blueprint and
if we don't, and I think that they were the
closest to kind of what we really needed to do
in order to truly correct ourselves. But because of the
theology and because of a lot of what the government
was doing at the time, I don't think that we

(54:31):
truly really understood the significance of that movement and the
fact that they really they were onto something right when
you when you when you look at us, because I mean,
you know, I mean clearly you know, as Muslims, and
when we all, all of us here are Muslim, I
mean obviously we believe in the Dean, we believe in

(54:52):
the Los Bonawatchalla, we believe in God. I mean we
we all of that is important. But I think that
for us as as African American Americans especially, you know
a lot of this, a lot of those spaces when
it comes to even our own the typical monotheistic religions,

(55:15):
being Christian, Judaism and Islam, hasn't always given us the
type of attention that we give to them, you know.

Speaker 11 (55:27):
What I mean.

Speaker 10 (55:28):
And so I think that we I think that as
as I'm thinking about what we need to do is
I think that we need to get to that, to
get to that space in order to basically as if
we're talking about somehow correcting an issue.

Speaker 12 (55:45):
No, we whole hardly, mister O Lee agree with you,
but we can't get nowhere without safety, nation building and
nothing else. We cannot respectfully cooperate in a way for
real change, collective change without safety. I need to know
that I'm safe with you for me to really, you know,

(56:10):
perform my best, you know, without having worried about looking
at or paying attention to what you got going on,
you know, I mean, the focus on my task as hand.
I got to know that I'm protected, right, And we
can't say that. I mean, I'm just going to tell
the truth. We cannot say that amongst ourselves. And it
ain't because again, like I say, what we talk about
as far as to self hate. Can we talk a

(56:31):
lot about self hate?

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 10 (56:33):
Yeah, we're not safe.

Speaker 13 (56:37):
You walk down the street. You walk down the street.

Speaker 10 (56:40):
Although although I don't like the joke Chris Rock when
he says he's at the ATM, he said, he ain't
looking for the police, looking for who. You know what
I'm saying, So, I mean, you know, although I didn't
like it, I mean there's some truth about that.

Speaker 11 (56:57):
We are.

Speaker 10 (56:57):
We fear the same thing. And you know, at that moment,
you're thinking about you and yours. Yeah, you know what
I mean, and you and your safety as opposed to
trying to you know, go somewhere where, like you said,
I mean, you can't.

Speaker 13 (57:15):
You know, And that goes back to what you said
because the trauma of it all. It's just like my
wife told me the other day, what was it was
Withes Today, we was coming through La. She looked at
the tank and she said, maybe the tank is low.
She said, let's go to the gas station. I said, no,
We're getting back to my end of town. And that
was you know, she understand that I'm getting back to

(57:36):
my side of town, you know, because I don't like
the area and it's and it's trauma. That's just the
way it is when you and the thing about it,
what comes to my mind is that I don't know
what neighborhood I'm in, you know, I don't know how
they're going to respond out here. But I'm not thinking
about the police at that moment. I'm thinking about my
own kind doing something to me in this neighborhood. And

(57:57):
it's a sad reality. But that's the way I wrote
every single day. And that's a that's another aspect of
that trauma that I was talking about every day.

Speaker 11 (58:05):
You know what's interesting when you say that, When you
said that that kind.

Speaker 10 (58:08):
Of that that reminded me. When we think about the
gang culture and it's safety, Yeah, you're drawn to that
that life do the same that safety actually draws you
sometimes to criminal behavior. Yes, your desire to be safe,
and that's the irony.

Speaker 11 (58:27):
Right, you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 (58:28):
Yes, I mean you you know, you know, if I'm
not part of this gang or even sometimes even our
own you know, survival depends on who you're rolling with.

Speaker 11 (58:40):
So everybody is.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
I mean, you know, is.

Speaker 10 (58:45):
Uh is a desire to be safe, sir.

Speaker 12 (58:50):
That's the whole again, that's the solution to trauma. It
is safety, that's the solution.

Speaker 10 (58:55):
Right, Wow, interesting, what come on?

Speaker 11 (59:00):
Man? Wow? Boy?

Speaker 10 (59:02):
I definitely definitely appreciate you joining us today. Man, it
was very very impactful. It is very very informative, and man,
I'd love to have you back soon. So we continue
because there's so much more to talk about, you know,
and we didn't have that time. But again, man, thank
you for blessing us, you know, with your presence and
to all everybody who tended tuned in. We appreciate it.

(59:26):
And we'll see you next week, same time, same place,
same channel, and until that time, stay blessed.

Speaker 11 (59:38):
Get down.

Speaker 8 (59:45):
Wow on board k C Express, k C A land
n t A m fristution that you noticed her behind.

Speaker 7 (01:00:00):
M NBC News Radio I'm rob Martyr. President Trump is
in a war of words with