KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali (Sun, 7 Sep, 2025)

KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali on Sun, 7 Sep, 2025

Episode Transcript

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Speaker 4 (01:38):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Justice Watch with
Attorney Suluali. We are here with the Man the Legend,
and we're here to talk about a very important topic
regarding the state of minorities in this country and the
relationship with the state of California and the ways in
which we're seeing things pan out with it, everything that

(02:00):
we are experiencing today, Attorney Zuluali, we are here to
really try to gauge where you're at and where you're
seeing the state and this relationship between people of color
and the justice system. We know that California historically has
been categorized as a state that is fairly progressive, and

(02:20):
we want to know from your experience and from where
you sit, where do you see that relationship happening. Do
you see that benefiting people of color or not? And
where do you see the relationship between people of color
and the justice system here in California.

Speaker 5 (02:33):
First of all, thank you for those that great introduction.

Speaker 6 (02:36):
I don't think I'm.

Speaker 5 (02:37):
Deserving of it, but I appreciate that at any rate,
I think that really the way that the justice system
kind of plays its way out in the state of California,
especially with it being seen as a more liberal and
more progressive state, I don't think it really plays it
self out any much different than it does in any

(02:59):
other state, right many liberal states as well as the
progressive states. I guess you should say is that there's
this ideology that you can legislate behavior. The real issue
around the country, here in the state of California and

(03:21):
around the country, as it relates to the problems that
we're having with our criminal justice system, doesn't really start
in the courts. It doesn't really start with our criminal
justice system at all. It actually starts with our educational system.

(03:43):
And the reason why I say that is because that
we tend to put, you know, we don't really know,
or at least our politicians in large numbers seem to
really don't know how to deal with criminal justice. There's
this idea that if there's an increase in crime, then

(04:03):
there needs to be increase in laws as it relates
to criminal behavior, and an increase in police presence, as
well as an increase in sentencing, and none of that
works because as we see in this state, the crime
actually increases, like for example, the three strikes law. Although

(04:27):
we have a three strikes law in the state of
California that is supposed to actually help increase decreasing repeat offenders,
it hasn't. There's no numbers changed. It continues to increase.
Violence intends to increase because we have not really done

(04:48):
what we needed to do as a society and especially
the people who are representing us to understand what needs
to happen to decrease the numbers as it relates to
criminal behavior. Also, oftentimes things are criminalized that aren't really

(05:11):
technically criminal behavior, but oftentimes there's social crisis. A lot
of times, the best way to come back criminal behavior
is education and figure out the relationship between this country
and marginalized communities. We've actually backstep went backwards in a

(05:34):
lot of ways when it comes to the relationship between
marginalized people and the country. You know, we you know,
the same numbers still exist. You know, there's not been
a huge difference from the numbers of African Americans when
it comes to the issues of poverty and.

Speaker 6 (05:52):
Those sort of things.

Speaker 5 (05:53):
Now, I think that when we talk about trying to,
you know, figure out ways in which to address and
deal with these issues. Of Course, as I've said before,
I think that the result has to be some degree
understanding that the state is not going to help us.

(06:14):
And I think that once we understand that the state
is not going to help us, then we have to
figure out ways to try to better our communities without
getting the state involved. However, what we're dealing with in
many of the marginalized communities is the mental trauma that
much of this has been caused for centuries. So the

(06:38):
internalized racism really is a real thing where people have
basically we've seen that for example with the Hispanic community
and this last election, where they basically began to start
criticizing themselves, are seeing themselves through the eyes of of

(07:00):
the oppressor exactly, and then it creates it's almost like,
you know, it's like a survival mode. It's like they
it's like being in It's kind of funny when we
think about the Stockholm syndrome, how there's been a lot
written about the Stockholm syndrome and how a hostage would

(07:21):
ultimately begin to start acting in the interest of it
if a suppressor and against his own personal interest, right,
because we you know, we saw that with years ago
there was a case with Patty Hurst who was a
hostage and then she was taken by these individuals and
ultimately they started helping her hostage takers do bank robberies.

(07:46):
And that was just simply because of the fact that
there was this you know, Stockholm syndrome and then there
was you know, you begin to start acting against your
own interest. And the same thing has existed for the
trauma that black people have suffered as an entire community.
I went to the FBI Hostage Negotiation school back in

(08:07):
like nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one, and we talked about
you know, we would listen to audios of people being
taken hostage, like in banks and stuff, and you would
hear after so long, like they would be asking for
certain things, and then you would hear in the background

(08:30):
the hostages becoming angry at the hostage negotiator and it
would say, give him what he wants, you know, like
they're almost turning against the people who are.

Speaker 6 (08:41):
Trying to help them.

Speaker 7 (08:43):
Right.

Speaker 5 (08:44):
And once you've been taking a hostage, then there is
a debriefing stage. A hostage needs to go through some
sort of therapy and mental counseling to address the issue,
that issue of being the same way with domestic violence.
We understand that in domestic violence, people you know, suffer

(09:05):
from that same type of trauma you know, where they
have been, you know, put in situations where they have
been traumatized. It doesn't even have to be physically. It
could be mentally. And then there's they act a certain
way and they begin to turn against the people who
are trying to help them. Right, and the same thing

(09:25):
happens to you know, communities. Because you have to look
at the history. The target is not an individual. The
target of the American government was to dehumanize mentally and physically.

Speaker 6 (09:45):
Black people.

Speaker 5 (09:46):
That was the objective. It wasn't It's not a theory,
it's not a conspiracy.

Speaker 6 (09:55):
It is a.

Speaker 5 (09:56):
Fact that the the the fabric of American society as
the as much of as the Constitution, because we say
that the Constitution is very is a very important document,
and it's that the fabric of American society with the

(10:18):
same type of intensity, the oppression of black people was
as much the same for centuries, more time was spent
trying to oppress black people than the free black people. So,
in other words, you have a situation where you have
a system, you have a government who had an objective

(10:42):
to you know, its slave individuals for centuries. You could
not read, that would have been against the law. You
couldnot write, that would have been against the law. And
you know, you could not even have a family because
there was no laws to protect you, to even prevent

(11:03):
you from a mother and a father and a child
to be together. Sometimes it was intentional to split them up.
And the Highest Court of the Land in a published case,
basically stated that a black man is not a human being.

(11:24):
So if the highest court of the land issued an
opinion that says that a black person cannot be a
human being. And even after the so called Emancipation Proclamation,
there was systematic oppression of black people in this country.
It still was an issue when it came to you know,

(11:46):
you cannot integrate into society and we are to keep
you separate because you were seen as you were treated
as a second class citizen. So the idea of the
America and government to treat black people as if they're
not human.

Speaker 6 (12:07):
Has been at the essence of America. Yeah, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 5 (12:12):
So when you talk about this, So we ignore that
and we don't address it, and so it's like anything
else that if you don't it's like a disease. If
you do not address, if you don't try to cure
the deceased disease or treated the disease, it gets worse,
you see what I mean?

Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yeah, And when you're talking about it in that way,
it seems like even nowadays, we're not even treating symptoms, right,
because we think of slavery as such a far fetched
left in the past kind of idea. But when we
talk about nowadays, right, modern day slavery is being experienced

(12:52):
through the court system, through the prison industrial complex system,
through the prison and student pipeline population that we're seeing
as well well in being incarcerated.

Speaker 6 (13:02):
Right. And when you're.

Speaker 4 (13:03):
Talking about the court system as an officer of the court, right,
as someone who is within the court, how do you
see modern day slavery plan out in that regard?

Speaker 6 (13:12):
Well, I mean it is.

Speaker 5 (13:13):
I mean I think that what happens is the agenda
is still the same. People still have the same biases,
biases that they've had before.

Speaker 6 (13:22):
I mean, it's just like, you know, it.

Speaker 5 (13:24):
Doesn't take a rocket scientist sort of speak to set
in the courtroom and see that the negotiation and the
way that certain people are addressed in court are differently
different based upon how they look. You know, I think
that when they address certain individuals, that certain individuals are

(13:44):
not given the same type of leeway, so to speak,
as it relates to getting certain plea deals or certain
charges a certain time. I mean, there's case after case
after case if you research it, where it talks about
the fact that African Americans get more time than white
people for the same type of offenses, and there is

(14:06):
a correlation between how that plays out and the way
that the way that people are prosecuted. Now, if you
ask someone who's working in a police department in a
city where all they see is the destructions that's going
on within those communities, and again a lot of that.

(14:27):
I mean, I think that we do have to there
has to be individual accountability, but at the same time,
I think that we have to address the reasons why
you're seeing those things within certain communities and you're not
seeing the me in other communities, because that self destruction
is a byproduct of the internalized racism and trauma that

(14:51):
black people have suffered, you know, over the years there's that,
you know that it's I think that if the state
is really going to be really wants to do something
that's really going to help the community, I think our
educational system has to change. But I think another thing

(15:12):
that has to change. To be honest, we are going
to have to figure out a way to not depend
on our government to help us. But then on the
other hand, and I'm talking like a lawyer, on the
other hand, they won't leave us along. Okay, there's been

(15:35):
a history of that. Whenever there's been black progression, which
one of examples is Black Wall Street and other similar
situations where the country has actually went out and burned
those cities to the ground. Whenever they see that. Whenever
there's black progression, then there's always going to be white interruption.

(15:56):
So you know, so that creates the the problem. So
whenever you're seeing that you have an African American who
is progressing, doing well, being independent, not depending on the
state as their slave master, then oftentimes they're targeted, and

(16:18):
that target creates the trauma within black people to fear
their progression and success. I'll give you an example, Like
I mean, the reality about.

Speaker 6 (16:30):
Human beings.

Speaker 5 (16:32):
Is that every human being makes mistakes. There's no exception
to that, no matter what religion you are, no matter
what your thought process is.

Speaker 6 (16:43):
Humans make mistakes.

Speaker 5 (16:45):
Yeah, if the federal government or the state government decides
that you're going to be a target, they can get
you for something.

Speaker 6 (16:58):
Nobody can go untouched.

Speaker 5 (17:00):
The President of the United States has thirty something felonies
thirty four so everybody can be touched.

Speaker 6 (17:07):
And so what happens.

Speaker 5 (17:09):
That's the problem with the criminal justice system. It can then,
at a different level, be weaponized against you, like for example,
Bill Cosby, who basically he was at the top of
the food chain when it came to black success and

(17:30):
someone who was very who did a lot for African Americans,
specifically historically black colleges and universities, and Bill Cosby became
a target. His money, his success, all the positive things
that he did, everything that Bill Cosby did that in

(17:52):
my opinion, outweighed anything that he did negatively, and that
he did you know decades ago, was used was weaponized
against him. And we see that with every you know,
every black person who becomes successful and speaks out and

(18:13):
becomes a vessel and a voice for oppression, they get targeted.

Speaker 6 (18:21):
So then what happens is.

Speaker 5 (18:23):
That basically I can tell someone that the best way
to do it is if you happen to be an
African American and you are dealing with oppression, then the
best way to deal with this oppression is success. But
you're but the same way, they would hang a black

(18:45):
man and keep him on a noose on a tree
and let everybody look at it and observe it so
that they know this is what happens to you when
you buck the system. Then the criminal justice system is
being used and it's a news.

Speaker 6 (19:01):
So let's hang.

Speaker 5 (19:02):
Him so you will understand that you need to know
your place.

Speaker 6 (19:07):
You see what I mean, And they put.

Speaker 5 (19:10):
It out for public display, and it's always old news.
You know, it's old news until you say and you
do the wrong thing. When you say and you do
the wrong thing, then they use the system to go
after you to take you down. So if you have
someone who happens to be a very affluent African American

(19:34):
who is silent and does nothing really to help uplift
his people in a way in which it means not
necessarily being successful on the plantation, but leaving the plantation,
then you become as long as you are successful and
you try to encourage people to be successful on the plantation,

(19:58):
then there's not really any problem. But if you become
successful and you're encourage people to leave the plantation, then
you become a target and they go after you. The
answer is to get off the plantation. That's the real answer.
Is to put yourself in a position where you've created

(20:20):
generational wealth and you're bringing people along with you who
are going to actually your family, and people can see that,
and you're doing it in a way in which you
want to be completely independent, you see what I mean.
So if you're a successful African American and you partner

(20:41):
with a predominantly white business partner, right, then you're safe.
But if you say, I'm going to be successful and
I'm going to make this a successful black enterprise, and
I'm going to not you know, completely black enterprise, and

(21:03):
I'm bringing along black people and we're going to make
black millionaires and we're going to make a lot of money.
We're going to be independent and we're not going to
need to depend on this system.

Speaker 6 (21:11):
And it don't make.

Speaker 5 (21:12):
Any difference because I'm going to put myself in a
position where you know, we don't have to worry about that. Right,
you become a problem and people are watching you, and
people are going to come after you, and you have
to walk on eggshells.

Speaker 6 (21:29):
That's the way America works.

Speaker 5 (21:31):
So the reason why black people who do become successful
are very they walk carefully because they're concerned that if
they make the wrong decision that they're going to come
after me for something. And you cannot live comfortably in
this world believing that as long as you do what

(21:54):
is right, that nobody's going to come after you, because
that's not reality. They can make things, they can come
after you for anything, to the extent where you know,
we do know, I mean people have been set up,
or they'll find someone to try to set you up,

(22:15):
or they'll find your your weaknesses and set you up.
And then you have to deal with the external mindset
of those outside of your community. So it's very difficult
because you're dealing with European colonialism both inside your community

(22:35):
with your own people and outside of your community. And
that's and that's very difficult. And that's why, you know,
I mean, clearly, we have people who call themselves pantan Africanists,
and they want to do things for people they make
YouTube videos, they do all these things and talk about
the white men, but they're not really you know, they

(22:56):
are there, they don't have that kind of cloud or power.
But then, can you imagine Bill Cosby telling black people
that you need to get off the plantation, and I'm
getting ready to buy network and we're getting ready to
do some things, you know, the same thing. I mean
this is similarly. We see what happened with Deon Sanders

(23:17):
and his kids. They did not like Dion Sanders because
Dion Sanders was a confident person who Number one, he's
a black man who the stereotype black men don't take
care of their children. His two young sons, who he
wanted to do what he could to make them successful.

Speaker 6 (23:36):
He does a great job.

Speaker 5 (23:37):
I think as a coach, I think he basically raised
two great young men who basically they made mistakes, obviously,
but you know, I'm sure they did. I don't know
their mistakes, but they're humans. I'm sure they have and will.
But I think in the grand scheme of things, he
did a great job and we expected to see great
things at the next level.

Speaker 6 (23:58):
And he was.

Speaker 5 (23:59):
Very confident as a black man, unapologetically a man who
happens to be black.

Speaker 6 (24:06):
He has two young men who were confident.

Speaker 5 (24:11):
You have Shadir Sanders, who happens to be And I'm
just using this because I think this actually tells you
the mindset that was used in the NFL to blackball
his kids and him is the same mindset that goes
on in the criminal justice system. So basically, a son
who should have been at least a first round pick

(24:32):
gets picked in the second.

Speaker 6 (24:33):
Round, I mean the fifth round. Yeah, right, one hundred
and forty four.

Speaker 5 (24:37):
Overall, he's probably at least the best one or two quarterback.
And then he has another one, Shalloh, who doesn't get
drafted at all. Then it's clear that the reason why
that happened, just like them blackball and calling Kaepernick, which
is a little bit different, but still the same grand

(24:57):
scheme of things.

Speaker 6 (24:58):
You black, you don't need to speak.

Speaker 5 (24:59):
Up for yourself, right, that's a problem. You need to
play your role because this is the plantation. Then you
have Shiloh who just got waved by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
And if you see the clip, there is this tight
end who is pushing him, pushing them after the whistle
is blown, pushing them, pushing them, pushing them.

Speaker 6 (25:23):
And then he swung back and he.

Speaker 5 (25:25):
Got waved, He got ejected out of the game and waved,
and the white guy stayed in the game, of course, right,
that is a that is classically how it works.

Speaker 4 (25:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (25:38):
Right, the white.

Speaker 5 (25:39):
Guy pushes you, pushes you, pushes you, pushes you, and
when you push back, then you get ejected.

Speaker 4 (25:45):
Yeah, it's almost like you're in an abusive relationship. Right,
the person focuses on your reaction in this case. You know,
people of color, right, sometimes there's reactions that they deem
as the sole non issue when and what was what
triggered that reaction is not necessarily focused on. And that's
what we're seeing in the relationship between the state and

(26:08):
people of color, right, that there's a really unhealthy relationship
happening where there's different layers of oppression, different layers of
actions and things that are being done against people of color.
That really, what is the reaction?

Speaker 5 (26:26):
What are we expected to do? What is the solution? Yeah,
so you have to be as you know, it's like,
you know, someone pushes you, and you say, that's the
perfect example that we cannot react the same way they
react on the plantation, right, because they because you know,

(26:46):
it's their plantation. Yeah, and so what we've learned is that,
you know, it's much bigger than.

Speaker 6 (26:56):
I mean, I know, poverty.

Speaker 5 (26:58):
We talk about poverty, and clearly there are white people
who are poor who aren't treated properly as well in
many different cases. However, I think it manifests itself a
little bit differently than it does with African Americans. Poor

(27:19):
white people are pawns. Poor white people are they They're
kind of like used as overseers, right, they have no money,
They just happen to be on the plantation. But basically
they sometimes are seen basically as overseers, and sometimes when
the overseer does something wrong, they're probably going to be

(27:41):
treated a little bit different than the person who owns
the plantation, you.

Speaker 6 (27:45):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (27:46):
So oftentimes they are put in situations where they are
the byproduct of the injustice. But I think that you know,
when we you know, and it really is what it
I mean, you know, then we have now we have,
you know, people who are suffering from the trauma and
internalized racism that are doing the same things to other

(28:10):
black people. Let me give you an example.

Speaker 6 (28:14):
Let's say.

Speaker 5 (28:16):
That and I'm doing generalities here I'm not doing I'm
not saying this applies to everybody. But let's just say
there's a judge, and let's just say that.

Speaker 6 (28:32):
You happen to be.

Speaker 5 (28:35):
A black prosecutor, or you happen to be a black
attorney or defense attorney, and you're in court. Now, a
black judge may treat you differently because they do not

(29:00):
want to be perceived as favoring black people, are favoring
somebody who happens to be black, and they're overcompensating because
they're put in a position and they realize that the
consequences of being a black judge or being a black

(29:25):
prosecutor is going to be different than their white counterparts.
So they feel like, look, I'm not going to let
you come in here and mess up my position because
mass is a good, massive, right, and I'm not going
to let that good mass do something that's going to

(29:47):
allow me to get kicked out of the house. If
I'm in the house, do you think I'm going to
let somebody in the slave going to sleep on the
floor and you know, in a shock while because of you,
and I'm sleeping in the.

Speaker 6 (30:08):
House in a bed. You see what I mean? And
that's the way sometimes.

Speaker 5 (30:15):
That we we deal with each other and when we're
in those spaces, because they treat us differently, So you
want to belong. So if I'm a police officer and
I'm around my peers and they're they're they're they're checking
your oil, they want to know what type of black

(30:38):
person are you?

Speaker 6 (30:41):
Right?

Speaker 5 (30:42):
Are you a field negro? Are you a house negro?
And how one of the way you are is how
I'm going to treat you. Now, if you're a field
Negro and you're a police officer, then I'm gonna get
your reports differently. I'm going to look at how you

(31:03):
respond differently. I'm going to make you ultimately think that
something is wrong with you, right, and you can you can,
you can.

Speaker 6 (31:12):
Make that happen. So I'm going to act a.

Speaker 5 (31:16):
Certain way because if I go out here, and you know,
if I go out here as I want to become
chief of police, I want to become a captain, I
want to become a lieutenant, I want to become a sergeant.
I want to become a detective. And I realize that
how they perceive me has an impact on how I'm

(31:39):
going to move up the ranks. Now, let's say I
go out here and I tell them that. You know,
if I walk into the circle and I tell them,
you know what, I like Trump. I think Trump is
doing some really good things. And you know, I don't
think it's about black and white. I think it's about
right and wrong. And I think that you know, you know,

(32:00):
they need to get it. It's just like whatever I'm
gonna be treated, they're gonna allow me in the spaces
that you wouldn't.

Speaker 6 (32:07):
Otherwise allow me.

Speaker 5 (32:08):
Now, if I walked up there and said I think Trump,
I think he's destroyed.

Speaker 6 (32:12):
I think he's inhumane.

Speaker 5 (32:13):
I think this is you know, there's there's racism in
the street, there's racism in the department. I think we
need to do some things to improve. Then they're gonna
treat you differently because you know, they feel uncomfort You
make people feel uncomfortable when you talk like that. Of course,
you see what I'm saying. So uh, and that's the problem.

(32:36):
That's the problem. That's why there is no there is
no progression, because it's there. There has to be a
correlation of two, you know, success and being woke and
trying to do something to benefit your people right and

(32:59):
bring people along with you in that progress, in that
progress telling the truth. Those are very dangerous things, and
they see you.

Speaker 6 (33:11):
As a threat.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
Yeah yeah, right, so you know, and that and that's
the issue that we're dealing with in our society is
you know, we're going to be a target.

Speaker 6 (33:28):
So so so this.

Speaker 5 (33:29):
Is the thing is like putting putting, putting.

Speaker 6 (33:31):
Us in spaces.

Speaker 5 (33:32):
It's like I can easily say, well, you know, it's
not racism anymore, because you got Oprah, you got all
these very successful African American men and women doing great things.
They're in Congress, they're incentive, they're lawyers, their doctors, they're PhDs,
they're you know, they're very successful people that are going

(33:54):
to college.

Speaker 6 (33:55):
You see them every day.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
Then where is the racism at nobody's coming out and
dragging you the house and hanging you.

Speaker 6 (34:03):
Right.

Speaker 5 (34:03):
Are there individual success stories? Of course they are, But
you know what about the village?

Speaker 6 (34:14):
You know what I mean? So that's the problem.

Speaker 5 (34:16):
And so the problem, of course is that we don't
have people who are able to correlate success both with
the village and with themselves.

Speaker 6 (34:32):
Like I'm going to use.

Speaker 5 (34:33):
This as a tool and a resource to bring people
along with me, you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (34:39):
Yeah, And so that becomes problem.

Speaker 5 (34:44):
Look at some of these people who you got people
who have fifty million dollars, a billion dollars, and you're
an African American and you're scared to say something that
would blackball you. Now, how rich are are you? If
you got a billion dollars and you cannot get up

(35:05):
there and say talk about the oppression and how we
need to go into our communities and change this situation.
Right then you know, you know, like if I have
a if we if we call a billionaire to sit

(35:26):
down and talk about the oppression of black people and
how we can figure out a way to basically own,
you know, become independent and own our own stuff. There's
consequences to that. Now, if I ask them to come
over here and say, hey, let me talk to me
about this new film that you've got and how does it?

(35:47):
How do you think it? You know, then you know
there's a problem. They're not going to come because because
they're going.

Speaker 6 (35:56):
To be cut off, they may not allow me.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
You know, I might be black balled in my industry,
I might lose my job, and in some cases they
might put me in prison. Yeah, there's absolutely no reason
that Bill Cosby should have went to prison, Absolutely no reason. Now,
what I can say is this, you know, the hypocrisy

(36:19):
of America as it relates to forgiveness and redemption is
absolutely terrible in the worst way.

Speaker 6 (36:32):
America.

Speaker 5 (36:35):
The only way you can love America is have a
spirit of redemption and forgiveness. A black man in America
or a black woman in America has every reason to
hate America, every reason to hate this country in the
worst way, but we end up being the most patriotic people. Yea, right,

(37:04):
America has never apologized for what it's done, It's never
asked for redemption for what it's done, and in many
ways continue to say people should be held accountable for
what they do. But America has never been held accountable

(37:24):
for what it's done. Yeah, if America did not have
the most powerful military force in the world, it should
be go to the International Criminal Court and be held
liable for genocide like some of these other people. There's
nothing let's see talk about Saddam Hussein taking people out

(37:50):
and executing them for no reason at all. America did
that to black people, right, I mean, you could tell
you you could go to a black man's home where
he's doing nothing but taking care of his his.

Speaker 6 (38:08):
Wife and his children.

Speaker 5 (38:11):
A black man goes home, a group of white men
could walk into your home, say your son looked at
a white woman, snatch him up, take him away, and
as a black man, there's nothing you could do about it.
And that went on for centuries, for centuries, right.

Speaker 6 (38:37):
But then if a black man goes to a home.

Speaker 5 (38:43):
And snatches a kid out of the home and kill him, they're.

Speaker 6 (38:48):
Going to say he's a monster.

Speaker 5 (38:50):
He should go to prison for the rest of his life.
And that was a systematic process in America. And they
still do it, but in a different way. They were
killing our kids, you know, for nothing, and in many

(39:13):
ways killing them unjustly at the very least. And now,
you know, we want to know how they you know,
like they make you feel like you're stupid, like.

Speaker 6 (39:24):
You can't articulate.

Speaker 5 (39:25):
Well, you can't articulate it because you can't speak truth.
If I stand in front of a group of people
and I'm trying to make them understand what's going on,
and I said, well, you know, America's racist. They did
this in the past, they did that in the past.
It doesn't touch them it doesn't touch them. You know,
this is a strong word, but the devil is a

(39:46):
hell of a thing.

Speaker 6 (39:49):
The devil is a hell of a thing. And there's
no scholarship.

Speaker 5 (39:55):
There's no degree, there's nothing that you can teach someone
to let the understand the importance of our creator and
those who hate our Creator. And I'm definitely one hundred
and ten percent convinced that the devil is very active

(40:18):
in America right now in the same way that he
was in the seventeenth century, the eighteenth century, in the
nineteenth century, the same way that we normalized the actions
of our government and the actions of people in our
society was normal then you know, it was you know

(40:40):
they did. We look back now and realize, some people
do how terrible it was.

Speaker 6 (40:46):
Yeah, we'll look back.

Speaker 5 (40:49):
Another one hundred years, if God gives us that long,
and we'll say how terrible that was that they were doing.

Speaker 6 (40:56):
That to people exactly.

Speaker 5 (40:58):
And the fact that no body can you know, I
could just say, in my practice and as an attorney,
I represent people of all colors with the same intensity
that I represent anybody else. The reason why I do
that is because my heart won't allow me to do

(41:19):
anything different. You know, you think about these militias and
these individuals that go out and try to overthrow the
government and just you know, lose their mind.

Speaker 6 (41:29):
Why didn't black people do that?

Speaker 5 (41:32):
I just don't think it was in in in our
in our spirit, and then a lot of people who
are oppressed in their spirit.

Speaker 6 (41:40):
Yeah, you know, that's that's what I think.

Speaker 4 (41:44):
And I think we've definitely believed the lie, you know,
of who we are and what we stand for, but
also see the repercussions that might come from any sort
of reaction. And I think that where we're at it
seems like what you're saying is we can't really legislate
the condition of the heart. We can't really legislate our

(42:06):
way to being seen as decent human beings.

Speaker 5 (42:10):
And that's the bigger that's the biggest problem when you
go into these spaces, you know, in whether you're talking
about you know.

Speaker 6 (42:17):
They spend they spend so much.

Speaker 5 (42:19):
Time debating over the basic human rights issues.

Speaker 6 (42:25):
And we also are vary.

Speaker 5 (42:26):
And that's another thing is that we've become, you know,
whenever we put people in these spaces in our communities,
whether it's you know, she's the first Mexican x Y
and z or he's the first African American whatever. Then
you have people with what is he doing for black people?
You know, some of these people making those comments aren't
doing anything either, and they're doing sometimes they're doing as

(42:49):
much as they feel like they can without losing their positions.
It's like those two state legislatures states black legislators in
Tennessee when they was spend it. There was three people
that did something. They suspended the two black men and
then the white lady was not suspended, and they did
the same thing. So when you see this over and

(43:10):
over and over again, you know, you begin to start
like using your common sense and realize that really what's
going on is what's at the fact, are we going
to Is America going to change?

Speaker 6 (43:25):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (43:25):
So America if somebody is you know, we're in a
bat it's like being in a back We're married to
an abusive spouse, and America is an abusive spouse, and
we can we are are trying to figure out whether
they're going to change or not, you know, and then

(43:46):
what do we do? So when you're abuse, you know,
when a person's in an abusive relationship, you.

Speaker 6 (43:50):
Know they have nowhere to go? Like, what are you
going to do?

Speaker 5 (43:54):
Either I play this game out and get along or
I have nowhere to go. My whole survival, my whole
being is based upon this person that I'm married to.
And then if I leave this person, then you know,
how do I survive? How do I take care of
my children? How do I take care of myself?

Speaker 6 (44:16):
You know? How am I going to? Look? How is
this going to? You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (44:20):
So you're that's the marriage between black America and between
Black Americans and our government in America.

Speaker 6 (44:27):
You know, like, what are your choices? It's like you
ain't got no choice but to to like me or
for the behavior and exactly.

Speaker 5 (44:36):
And then if you if you speak up and you
and you know, well, look, do you want to get
slapped again? Right because I'll slap you or you know,
I can say it, but I know that when I
say it that We're going to get in a fight
and I'm going to get my nose broke or I'm going.

Speaker 6 (44:52):
To get a black eye.

Speaker 5 (44:53):
I'm going to get beat up, I'm going to get pushed,
I'm going to get punished.

Speaker 6 (44:57):
Something's going to happen to me. So how do I
deal with that, you know what I.

Speaker 5 (45:03):
Mean, And the actors within the criminal justice system.

Speaker 6 (45:06):
Act that way, so you can't. It's built that way.

Speaker 5 (45:10):
When you stand in front of the judge, you have
to stand there and you got to act a certain way.
You can't put your hands in your pocket, you can't
roll your eyes, you can't look around. You have to
stay there and talk to the person who is overcompensating
for their shortcomings and using it against you. Yeah, definitely,

(45:31):
because there's certain ways. There's certain things that I would
never say to a person. If I'm speaking to someone
and you know, unless you are being abusive to me,
if you're standing there and I don't like the way
you're acting, there's a limit as to what.

Speaker 6 (45:47):
I'm going to say to you.

Speaker 5 (45:49):
Because if I'm really the judge and I really got the.

Speaker 6 (45:51):
Power, I don't need to say that.

Speaker 5 (45:53):
But I'm saying it because it's not like you're disrespecting
the bench.

Speaker 6 (45:57):
You're just I need your respect.

Speaker 5 (46:00):
Yeah, you're projecting same way when you're talking about a prosecutor,
same way you're talking about a police officer with a gun.
What's the difference between a security guard without a gun
and a police officer with a gun.

Speaker 6 (46:11):
His authority.

Speaker 5 (46:12):
He thinks he's better than you because he has the
right to enforce the rules of.

Speaker 6 (46:17):
The state with a gun and a badge.

Speaker 5 (46:21):
Right, And so, just like Eddie Murphy said in forty
eight Hours, I'm your worst nightmare. I'm an end with
a badge, and I got a permission to kick your
ass anytime I feel like it. Right, that's the authority,
you know what I mean. And imposing your authority on
authority means nothing if you can't impose it on no body.

(46:43):
So how do you flex? And that's what happens. That's
what you're dealing with, is people you know who are
who are flexing. Just like when you put somebody on
the plantation and he lives in the house. Living in
the house means nothing unless you can look at the
people who live in the field.

Speaker 6 (47:05):
A million dollars mean.

Speaker 5 (47:06):
Nothing unless if everybody else had a million dollars, You
see what I mean.

Speaker 6 (47:12):
And that's that's kind.

Speaker 5 (47:13):
Of what's happening with the same way with the Hispanic community.
If you have someone who you know finally gets on
and they're treated like, you know, like they're not really
you know what I mean, And then they can Basically
they're put in spaces and they want to know why
can't you get your papers? Why can't you come over

(47:33):
there without being inspected? We came over here the right way, right,
You see what I mean? Well, don't talk to me.
I mean I had a guy I was in paddle
zone when a guy walked up to a guy and
was speaking to him in Spanish, and he basically admonished
him for speaking to him in Spanish.

Speaker 6 (47:53):
You know, I mean, you see what I mean?

Speaker 5 (47:56):
So are people who speak Spanish who refuse to speak
and that like they don't know how to speak it
when like they come to you, like they come to
work for you, like.

Speaker 6 (48:05):
Do you know how to speak Spanish?

Speaker 4 (48:06):
Now?

Speaker 5 (48:06):
I don't know how to speak Spanish. Then they go
back in the back and they talk in Spanish to
their mom.

Speaker 6 (48:10):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (48:11):
I mean, you know, it's like when you get it
in space, in these particular spaces, you know, you want
to feel privileged and you don't want to feel like
those people because you begin.

Speaker 6 (48:21):
To look down on people who are like you and
they remind you of that.

Speaker 5 (48:30):
It's like I hate the way they treated me so
bad that I hate you. Yeah, you see what I mean,
And that's that's a common situation.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
You know, we're projecting security through areas right denial exactly.

Speaker 6 (48:48):
You know, it's like, I'm not like you.

Speaker 5 (48:49):
It's just like you know, and you know there's actually
I've heard people say that tell black people, well, you know,
you're not like them, you see what I mean, And
it makes you feel better. You're not like them kind
of you know, you're not like the lower class blacks,
You're in the higher class blacks.

Speaker 6 (49:11):
Right. I know that we've had a lot of on
carnival cruises.

Speaker 5 (49:16):
Have you seen what they have been very critical and
the black ghetto behavior.

Speaker 6 (49:21):
Yeah, you know what I mean. You know, that's another story.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
But you know, we've been talking about all of these
issues here in this country and just wanting to ask you,
you know, what are the additional solutions that you see
for us as minorities and people of color to really
have agency.

Speaker 5 (49:39):
I think that the primary solution that I have is
our additional solution is again, we talked about the fact
that we have to, you know, begin to start getting
off the plantation, and I think that they get but
I want to be clear about getting off the plantation
now getting off the plantation does not include black people

(50:04):
who aren't doing anything and are criticizing people who are
in the house. The problem is is that the reason
why some black people won't come out of the house
is when the heat is on, the people who are
in the field don't help. So criticizing the guy, criticizing

(50:29):
the guy in the house doesn't help if the people
in the field aren't going to come to his aid
and help him. And that's the problem is that when
we see that's the other side of it, when we
see these individuals who come out and try to assist
or try to do something to help people, then where
is everybody at the same people that criticize the person

(50:55):
when he was in the house are going to make
light of it fact and criticize them when they get
kicked out of the house.

Speaker 6 (51:04):
Like I see you know, you see what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (51:07):
So a lot of people, it's like you're on an
island by yourself. Everybody wants you to carry them on
their back. All the slaves want you to carry them
on their back, but they don't want to help you.

Speaker 6 (51:19):
If I'm going to have a slave.

Speaker 5 (51:20):
Rebellion and it's just me and two people.

Speaker 6 (51:23):
That's a problem.

Speaker 5 (51:25):
But if I'm going to come, if I'm going to
take Master's gun and have a rebellion, you know, maybe
that's not a good analogy. But if I'm going to
have a rebellion and I come out of the house,
then we all need to be in this together. And
that's the problem. I think that there's a mindset that, Okay,
they're going to do something against me, but are my

(51:47):
people going.

Speaker 6 (51:47):
To follow me when I move exactly?

Speaker 5 (51:50):
And oftentimes the people who are in the field aren't
going to help you in the process, and that is
another issue.

Speaker 6 (51:58):
I think that you know, everybody's.

Speaker 5 (52:00):
Going to have to stand up and just because you
in the field don't mean you're gonna help.

Speaker 6 (52:06):
Right.

Speaker 5 (52:07):
So, if I'm in the house and I'm deciding I'm
gonna give this up for you and you, then what
you're gonna do is not what am I going to
do in the house, It's what you're gonna do to
help me if I get in the house. The same
thing with Barack Obama. See, well Barack Obama didn't do
nothing for black people. Well, if Barack Obama would have
done more for black people, what are black people?

Speaker 4 (52:29):
Are?

Speaker 5 (52:29):
Those same black people gonna ride with him if something happens,
because they were gonna get him. Right, if Barack Obama
as a president of the United States would have did anything.

Speaker 6 (52:43):
That and they went.

Speaker 5 (52:44):
After for everything he did and his family, you know,
he did any of the stuff that Trump did, he
would have never survived one term. Oh yeah, you see
what I mean. So you know that's the issues. Yeah,
he might not. What did he do? What did he
do for black people? The question is what did you do?

(53:08):
That's the question. If I'm setting here on my couch
and I get up every day and go to work,
I know you got a job. You're talking a lot
of stuff, right, What did you do when you went
to IBM that day? You didn't do anything. It starts
with you.

Speaker 6 (53:29):
What are you doing? I ain't going to vote?

Speaker 5 (53:33):
You know. Did you give a dollar to his campaign?
Did you give two dollars to his campaign? Did you
go to his rally? Did you go and write your
counag did you go out and do anything other than
just talk? No, you didn't do anything. So that is
the issue, is that we want to set back and
sit on the couch and complain about the man and

(53:57):
complain about the people in the house, but we aren't
really going out. Did you get up today if there's
a rally or you're going to go to it, Well,
they don't do nothing.

Speaker 6 (54:05):
Rallies don't do anything. Nothing. You know, there's nothing, nothing
does nothing. So the answer is.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
Get up and become part of that, make the difference
and help make the change. And you know you have to.
You know there's fear there. But you cannot expect everybody
to give up their life and give up what they
work for when you're not willing.

Speaker 6 (54:29):
To do the same thing. You know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (54:32):
So, and that's what I'm saying is that basically, just
because you're in the field don't mean you can't do anything.

Speaker 6 (54:39):
Go out and help them.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
You're going to be a target too, But why would
you be reluctant to give up your position? And you
want that person to give up their position. And that's
where the stalemate is. Like if I'm going to I'm
going to I'm sitting on the bench. If I get
up here and go on television and say that the
system is racist, I'm going to get they suspended. I'm
gonna get in trouble. They gonna come after me. But

(55:04):
what are you going to do like Judge o'leu Stevens
in Missouri who brought out the fact.

Speaker 6 (55:10):
That there was racism in the jury.

Speaker 5 (55:13):
System and he got suspended.

Speaker 6 (55:16):
Nobody even know who he is.

Speaker 5 (55:19):
But what if he just didn't say anything, he wouldn't
have got suspended. But he said something, he got suspended,
and then nobody went on the courthouse steps and said,
give that man his job back. I'm with you. I'm
gonna make sure you get back in office.

Speaker 6 (55:37):
Go vote.

Speaker 5 (55:38):
If Obama would have done something and they went after him,
those same people that criticized him would have condemned him
from doing whatever they said he did wrong. I'm not
here one way or the other. I'm just being objective
about I believe Obama's administration could Obama did more. He
could have did more for every in many different ways.

Speaker 6 (55:56):
But the question is there's certain.

Speaker 5 (55:58):
Things you have to understand about the presidency. You can't
do everything. Sometimes the people think you can do.

Speaker 6 (56:03):
Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. So it's not
like you're the president and everything.

Speaker 5 (56:06):
Of course, we got a president now that obviously can
do whatever he wants to, but a black president couldn't
do that.

Speaker 6 (56:13):
When you put in.

Speaker 5 (56:13):
Certain spaces, then you have to act a certain way.
You cannot act like Trump, because Trump is the epitome
of if you want to say that, basically, you can
get away with anything. You can get away with anything.
You can commit thirty four felonies and he ain't still ain't.

Speaker 6 (56:30):
Got sentenced yet.

Speaker 5 (56:32):
White privilege, right, You can violate all kinds of laws,
take away people's rights, you know, ignore the court rulings,
say whatever you want to say, and there's no repercussions
for it. And they like it because they know that's
what because they think that's the way it's.

Speaker 6 (56:52):
Supposed to be in this country.

Speaker 5 (56:54):
I think social marketing would help, meaning that I believe
that there should be campaigns that address that psychosis and trauma.
And I think that whenever we you know, social marketing
and nowadays we live in you know, social media and
internet and whatever, so there should be public service announcements

(57:18):
about these issues and what you need to do and
the fact that you're suffering from it, like they have
these commercial where it said, are you suffering from sleepless.

Speaker 6 (57:28):
Nights or you know what I mean. I'm telling you
it is a theme.

Speaker 5 (57:34):
Yeah, Internalized racism is a theme, and it is one
of the biggest problems that we have as African Americans
and other minority of marginalized people is they have internalized
this racism and they begin to start acting against their interest,

(57:58):
right the same way that you know, we give people
a pass when they get kidnapped, and then they begin
to start acting a certain way. It's because there is
a proven psychosis to people when they're being oppressed. The
same way when you say, well, why can't they just
walk away from this abusive relationship? You should just leave.

(58:19):
That's not your fault. Take responsibility, right, Yeah, but you're
to say from the outside exactly, you know, people don't
want to empathize with the fact that when you're in
a situation like that. You know, there's even men that
stay in relationships that are being abused, you know, because
it may not be necessarily physical, but there's other ways.

(58:40):
In our education system, we have to begin to start
educating people in that understanding that this is more of
an issue of their shortcoming than it is of yours.

Speaker 6 (58:51):
You're being targeted for a reason.

Speaker 5 (58:53):
You don't have to learn how to deal the way
we had to learn how to how to navigate the
plantation in the seventeenth and nineteenth century. We have to
learn how to navigate the plantation.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
Love today, Well, thank you for that very important reminder,
Attorney Zuluali of you know, just knowing that the relationship
between the justice system and this system overall and people
of color and minorities and people living in undermined communities
is an unhealthy one and that the future really depends

(59:29):
on us and the agency will really attribute to our
own selves. So with that, thank you so much for
all of you that are tuning in for watching this episode,
and stay tuned with more information about Attorney Zuluwali, what
he's out there doing in the world, all the change
that he's creating. There's a stop in Frisk Academy, there's
a Justice Watch Radio. Stay tuned for more. Thank you

(59:52):
for tuning in today, all right, Thank.

Speaker 7 (59:53):
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