KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali (Sun, 28 Sep, 2025)

KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali on Sun, 28 Sep, 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Michigan. In a post on truth Social Trump called the
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Okay, c A A.

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Speaker 10 (04:56):
You're listening to an encore presentation of this program KA
the Express.

Speaker 11 (05:09):
M hm, m hm.

Speaker 6 (05:24):
H m hm.

Speaker 11 (05:28):
I'm mad to get back.

Speaker 12 (05:34):
Some gift.

Speaker 13 (05:36):
Thank you for tuning in for this edition of Justice
Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali. I am Attorney Zulu Ali
with the Justice Watch Crew Rosa New Year's Michael blaud Clark,
doctor Kilbasher, Andrew Rohdeman, and Ryan Rose. This week, like
every week, we'll be talking about critical legal and social
justice issues that are impacting our communities.

Speaker 14 (05:57):
This week we.

Speaker 13 (05:58):
Have our top is black trauma and this impact on
criminal justice. And today joining us is a very very
special guest, Brother Anthony Sharif Nicks Brother NIX, was born
December thirteenth, nineteen seventy two in Butler County, Alabama. He
is a powerful voice for resilience, restorative justice, and community transformation.

Speaker 14 (06:22):
The only son among siblings, Anthony's early.

Speaker 13 (06:24):
Life was shaped by the effects of his father's military
related PTSD. His parents divorced and then moved from rural
Alabama to Riverside, California.

Speaker 14 (06:34):
By age eleven, he was in.

Speaker 13 (06:39):
He was entangled in gang culture, leading to a turbulent
adolescence of instability, incarceration, and ultimately a life term prison
sentence at nineteen. In October nineteen ninety five, inspired by
the Menu Man March and his embrace of Orthodox Islam,
Anthony began a profound journy of discipline, healing, and transformation.

(07:03):
His leadership grew through his involvement with the Timeless Group,
where he advanced from participant to facilitator, embodying personal accountability
and restorative principles. After serving twenty one years, he was
released in twenty twelve, committed to using his experience as
a catalyst for change. Since his release, Anthony has become

(07:25):
a certified Trauma Recovery coach, Peers support Specialists, Applied positive Psychologists,
and senior facilitator with ECHOS Trauma Informed Non Violent Parenting Program.
He is also the creator and facilitator of Boys Transform,
a writer passage program empowering young men to embrace character, purpose,

(07:48):
and healthy identity. Beyond his service direct service work, Anthony
extends his impact through civic engagement. He is currently a
member of Crime Survivors of Safety and Justice.

Speaker 14 (08:06):
He serves.

Speaker 13 (08:09):
As a board of Trustees for the Lancaster Museum Art Foundation,
where he helps bridge culture and history and last, but
not least, today, Anthony Nick stands as a mentor, facilitator
and advocate who transfer personal adversity into collective empowerment, offering

(08:31):
pathways of dignity, safety, and hope for.

Speaker 14 (08:34):
The next generation. So, brother, I appreciate you man.

Speaker 13 (08:37):
Thank you so much man for joining us man on
this very very important topic. And there's nothing but an
honor and privilege to have you join us today.

Speaker 14 (08:47):
So appreciate you.

Speaker 5 (08:49):
It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 14 (08:50):
Yeah, yeah, thank you. I appreciate that.

Speaker 13 (08:52):
So yeah, I know that you also have been you know,
very supportive and have been involved in our program, which
is the Stopping Frisk Academy. Yes, and and you know,
we've had the pleasure of having you to talk to
the youth about the issue of trauma. And it's something
that you are very passionate about and something that you know,

(09:15):
you're very knowledgeable about. And I think that it's something
that we very seldom like to talk about, you know,
in our community, you know, especially as men and and
and dealing with, you know, the issues of trauma, because everybody,
you know, that's kind of like we kind of see
that somewhat of a weakness, you know when we talk
about you know, trauma and and some of the issues

(09:37):
that we that we face, you know, as as human
beings in general, but especially you know for us as
as black men, and we see a lot of that.
So I guess I want to begin by just talking
about you know, what what is trauma?

Speaker 14 (09:52):
I mean, how how how do we define that?

Speaker 12 (09:55):
Well, first of all, I want to say that you know,
our appreciate you invite me to this space to talk
about trauma, because not only do I talk about it
as far as from an expert, as far as training goes,
but through lived experience. You know, I grew up in
a household of domestic violence that resulted in me seeking

(10:18):
out my identity in the streets. That also that was traumatic,
you know, the screets was traumatic. And again ultimately that
when you discussed about UH in my bio, that how
I ended up in consperrations. But getting to the question
of trauma, UH, trauma has evolved over time. Initially, when

(10:40):
we talked about trauma, when trauma was introduced to mainstream UH,
we understood it to be PTSD, which is post traumatic
stress disorder, right, and it was primarily associated with the military,
the same thing that my father in my younger years
was diagnosed and was suffered from up into his past.

(11:00):
But over time we come to understand that PTSD or
trauma just don't affect soldiers in war. It can be
any event that can be catastrophic as far as a
car accident or any type of again the domestic violence,
it can be community violence. So it doesn't took on

(11:23):
many forms. So you know, it's now described as toxic stress.
Anything that produces toxicity as for as stress levels, that
is traumatic, right, And that's what we as peer for
sports specialists and as psychologists, you know, we try to
simplify it for the people. You know what I mean,
if you really want to know trauma, you know when

(11:44):
you look at it in the form of toxic stress.

Speaker 5 (11:48):
Right.

Speaker 14 (11:49):
Wow.

Speaker 13 (11:50):
So so now that we talked about a little bit
about the idea of trauma, Now, how does that when
we talk about trauma, how does that kind of you know, uh,
manifest itself specifically as it relates to the Black community,
or does it you know, manifest some sort of relations

(12:11):
specifically to our community.

Speaker 5 (12:14):
Yes, by many ways.

Speaker 12 (12:18):
First and foremost, I want to say that in most cases,
based on statistics, trauma you know is based on and
it can be found in childhood, you know what I mean,
based on your upbringing, based on your environment, right, property, uh,
social economic uh, and political circumstances uh. Dealing with again

(12:40):
you know by you know, bigotry, prejudice, all of that
stuff has a profound effect about what shapes the young
mind that altomely turns into adults, you know, to where
we're helped really accountable, you know. But but that's what
it's primarily found, is based in your younger experiences. And

(13:01):
then it spans out now as far as Black people
coming from a history where we can describe it as
a travesty, you know, when we talk about people of slaves,
when we talking about Jim Crow, when we're talking about

(13:23):
community policing and its abuses, all that has shaped the
black trauma, All that has shaped Black trauma. And the
end results is that is again it's the symptoms in
which we have criminalized, you know, a lot of things.
When it comes to the criminal justice system and Blacks

(13:44):
acting out based on their experiences, it's crimes, you know.
They they they're they're acting out or expressing themselves in
a way in which Saudi has deemed as a nuisance
and not viewed as a cry for help. But it's
really our crime for help. But on a larger scale

(14:04):
of society, we look at it as people who need
to be detained and removed from society for safety reasons. Right,
So black trauma is rooted in and just that though
when I talk about safety, it's a lack of safety.
That's the root root calls of black trauma is a

(14:24):
lack of safety.

Speaker 13 (14:26):
You know something that's really interesting yesterday, in fact, we
did a we did a video yesterday with Rosa and
Anthony Okay, and you know, one of the things that
we It's interesting because the you know, sometimes we do
these videos that we produce and we use them for

(14:46):
the radio and also we use them sometimes just to
put them on social media to talk about particular subjects.
And the actual initial topic for the video was supposed
to be the state versus the black, the brown, and
the poor that I was going to Actually that's how
it actually started. Ironically, I began to start talking about

(15:10):
using because I was having a difficult time articulating the mindset,
and so I began to start. It became easier for
me when I started talking about the plantation system. And
you know, and the more you think about the issue
of the plantation system, or even when you think about.

Speaker 14 (15:32):
Being incarcerated, right.

Speaker 13 (15:34):
I mean, although I've never been incarcerated, I've worked in
law enforcement and I've been around a lot of people
who have been incarcerated. And you know, one of the
things that you notice about people who are incarcerated incarcerated
is you know, you can tell a person who has

(15:55):
maintained an incarcerated mindset, right, how it You know, it's
just like going to boot camp, right when you go
into the military. And you know, there were some effects
of me being in boot camp. You know, when I
came home, I was maria. I was a little crazy, right,
I mean, because it got it got into my head.

(16:17):
And I think that we underestimate the significance of the
generational aspect of how the plantation was the foundation of
Black America for three centuries or more.

Speaker 14 (16:33):
Right, yes, And so you think.

Speaker 13 (16:34):
About the the the and the psychosis of how our
ancestors were on the plantation and how they socialized with
each other, and and it's it's almost the same the
way that they socialized with us and the way we
socialize with them. In many ways, it's very much still
related to the plantation system, right, And in a mindset.

(17:00):
And then I think, I think I do believe, and
you can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that
trauma can be generational.

Speaker 12 (17:09):
No, we know it to be if we know it
to be, you know, and I just want to interject
something in there, based on you talking about the plantation
and that whole relationship in that experience, is that trauma
is three hundred and sixty degree impactful. What I mean
by that trauma is not just centralized with just black
people being abused, the abusers too. If you track it down,

(17:33):
if you research it, if you can study it, you
will realize that the perpetrators also have been traumatized. Right,
So there's a perpetual effect here in peer work, we
say that hurt.

Speaker 11 (17:47):
People, hurt people, hurt people.

Speaker 12 (17:49):
So even though we can see the acts of the
harm and the and the loss all of that, but
we never consider or give pause to on what's the motivation,
you know, mean of the perpetrator. And sometimes that's where
you got to start because that explains a lot that
comes right after as for as a ripper effect on

(18:10):
how it's going down through that generational effect like that.

Speaker 5 (18:13):
But there's a source, right.

Speaker 12 (18:16):
And again that have to be included in the discussion
when we talk about black trauma is the very people
that inflicted upon us these traumatic events is also people
of trumpa.

Speaker 13 (18:27):
You know what I always think about is that In
nineteen ninety one, I went to Houston's negotiations School and
part of and you know, at the time, it really
didn't you know, I didn't really think much about it,
but you know, part of what we would do is
we would listen to the audios of people who were

(18:47):
taking hostage and it was kind of it was interesting
because what they would do is they would kind of
give you the you know, like how the guys asking
for certain things with the negotiator, and then they start
and as it goes, you will hear people in the background,
and initially those people seem terrifying, and eventually, you know,

(19:10):
we would hear them saying, come on, give him what
he wants, and it was almost like they were turning
on the people the negotiator, and you could tell that
they were sympathizing and empathizing with the with the hostage taker. Right,
And you know, I take that is that over And

(19:31):
the thing is is that if you take someone as
a hostage.

Speaker 14 (19:35):
Then there is I mean, like an hour.

Speaker 13 (19:38):
If you were taken as a hostage for an hour,
it is it is a recognized fact that you need
to be debriefed for one hour being taken as an
hostage for one hour, you need to be debriefed because
the middle the the the psychological impact of correct. So
can you can you imagine living that twenty four hours

(20:02):
without it without being debriefed?

Speaker 14 (20:04):
Yes, you know what I mean.

Speaker 13 (20:06):
And it's to say it's like you clearly recognize the
impact of that psychological but you know, psychological impact of
being taken hostage. So it's the same thing and same
thing with domestic violence. Yes, you know, they recognize it.
Even they got specialists when you charge with domestic violence,

(20:27):
they have specially the state brings specialists to testify about
the impact of domestic violence. Correct, even when it's not
physical or human trafficking or pimping. Right, they have all
these these specialists that talk about it. But when it
comes to our trauma, then it's like get over it, right, Yeah,
But I just want to kind of interject on that

(20:49):
when you begin to talk about that trauma, but also
the question that I had, you have something you want
to input behind it?

Speaker 12 (20:57):
Yes, miss, I mean I also want to say this too,
when it comes down to how our experiences are being
minimized even among ourselves. We uh, you know, when you
have started you say, how we like shy away from
that whole discussion, and we really don't like to try to,
you know, to addressing in the sense of therapy or

(21:19):
even just in open groups. But we also look at
it as far as we need to get over it.

Speaker 5 (21:25):
I'm talking about black people.

Speaker 12 (21:26):
Black people that we know for show they done went
through some stuff and need some healing, not just some healing,
need a professional person that help them navigate it. Will
dismiss it, will minimize it, saying that that was something
of the past, that that that ain't.

Speaker 5 (21:44):
You know, why why that ain't relevant?

Speaker 2 (21:45):
No more.

Speaker 5 (21:46):
I'm trying to be in the prison. I'm trying to
be progressive.

Speaker 12 (21:48):
So you got our own people that don't went through
the most also does not want to address the experience
in it's full contacts in the context I wanted to
share that with you.

Speaker 5 (21:59):
It ain't just other people, it's us.

Speaker 12 (22:01):
Also is again dismissing it, minimizing you know what I mean,
don't want to see it for what its full effects are.

Speaker 5 (22:09):
We don't. Yeah, that's my one of my biggest.

Speaker 12 (22:12):
Struggles in peer work with our people is is trying
to justify therapy. Yeah, why do I have to justify
therapy when you already admit that you're in pain.

Speaker 11 (22:22):
Yeah, you know, I wanted to say something.

Speaker 15 (22:25):
You know, on the onset, you was talking about how
a lot of your experience is growing up, you know,
and a home with domestic violence that kind of shape you, right,
that was that trauma that you experienced. Does trauma come
from like social media news?

Speaker 11 (22:42):
You know?

Speaker 15 (22:42):
How in other words, how we're brought up in our
household and our children, we express to them certain things
that happen in society, how to be careful, Like we
go through the stopping fists, Oh, you got to be
careful with the police, soth and so on.

Speaker 11 (22:58):
And it's like we tell him about it. Do you
believe that actually.

Speaker 15 (23:05):
Keeps them in the mold of being traumatized by what
they see on the news media with police being you know,
black people being harassed, so forth and so on. And
the reason I bring it up is because my son
got put over for the first time in his life
just from running down the street this past week and
he said he came home and he said, Dad, and
he was kind of shook up, but he kind of

(23:26):
laughed it off. But I can tell you know, him
being my son. I can tell that he was shook
because this was the first time he experienced it, and
he been to stopping fiscal He knows what to say
and what not to say, but he felt so nervous
that he like, he felt inclined. Okay, I gotta give
him my name. I got to tell him where I'm

(23:47):
going because he was nervous. But then when they start
asking him his address, he was like, well, I don't
feel comfortable with telling you that, you know, but he
was shook. And so he was shook because of what
he learned to stop and fish what he's seeing through
the media that look, if I don't corroperate, I could
be end up, you know, laying on the street dead.
And I believe that that aspect of it is trauma

(24:10):
within itself.

Speaker 5 (24:12):
Yes, what you.

Speaker 12 (24:14):
Highlight is is across the board, that incident of your
son is how the majority of us is responding to
those type of encounters, not just encounters of the law enforcement,
but anything when where we feel uncomfortable, but yet we
feel compelled to comply. Right, you know, I mean, even
if it's wrong as for what I'm saying, it's someone

(24:34):
infringing upon your rights. One of the components of trauma
is is fear.

Speaker 5 (24:40):
Fearself.

Speaker 12 (24:41):
You know what I mean is what's driving that whole
traumatic experience is that fear. What we need to understand
is trauma is not what's happening to us outside of ourselves.
Trauma is an actual and internal experience. Is our internal
perception of what's happening to us. That's what's traumatic. It
ain't actually being in a car accident or getting hit
in the head or being shot.

Speaker 5 (25:03):
That ain't it. It's how you.

Speaker 12 (25:05):
Internally is responding and experiencing that whole thing.

Speaker 14 (25:09):
That's what they.

Speaker 5 (25:09):
Said trauma really is.

Speaker 12 (25:11):
It's an internal act or emotion or again sensation that's
going on.

Speaker 14 (25:17):
Right.

Speaker 12 (25:17):
Yeah, so all of us experienced this though. It's what
I'm trying to say. It ain't just your son dealing
with a situation I can. I can guarantee you that
we could all look back in our lives, be it
in the workplace, be it dealing with our neighbor when
we you know, we felt we were doing something wrong
and they and they was improperly in questing us about
some things about our household.

Speaker 5 (25:36):
They need to be talking to our parents about.

Speaker 12 (25:38):
You mean, all of that, you know what I mean,
all of that stuff right there is based on these
these that internal workings on us that compels us to
cooperate when we feel nervous.

Speaker 13 (25:52):
It kind of reminds me of when you talk about
you know, the you know, the things that we say
on television and some of the things that we see
in social media, you know, and we often talk about
this thing about internalized racism that I think internalized racism
is like the and that's what happened really in when

(26:13):
you think about the plantation situation. And I was kind
of talking about the fear right, so in other words,
I mean, we've gone through a you know, this whole
decades of using our men to make examples of them, right,

(26:34):
so you know, from you know, whipping them in front
of the other slaves, right the trump the trauma that
does until hanging them right so that you leave them
hanging there, castrating them so that everybody.

Speaker 11 (26:49):
Can see them.

Speaker 13 (26:52):
The leaders that we had, and they've all been you know,
crucified or killed right to let you know what's going
and we know through coin taelpro that they had an
incentive to let you see what would happen to the Messiah.

Speaker 14 (27:10):
Right.

Speaker 13 (27:11):
Then, what we've seen as far as the police, the
policing and how they come into the communities and you know,
do certain things in front of certain people so that
everybody knows. This is kind of what happens, right if
you do the wrong thing, like you know, like showing
everybody like you know.

Speaker 14 (27:31):
I'm King Kong, you know, shoe programs.

Speaker 13 (27:36):
Then then you start seeing our successful men who one
by one by one are being somehow, some way put
into the criminal justice system, those who are getting ready
to do big things, yes, right, and.

Speaker 14 (27:53):
Then we've seen.

Speaker 13 (27:54):
Them some of the most the ones we've seen as heroes,
the one that we see that you know, financially and otherwise,
they've you know, taken the criminal justice system to do
a public lenchon of them, you know what I mean.
It's making it so much that when you do get
a level of success, you're fearful that they're going to

(28:15):
come after you, so you can't speak out for your
own people.

Speaker 14 (28:20):
Right.

Speaker 13 (28:21):
For what we saw even in sports with Deon Sanders
and his kids right right, that what they were doing
is a public lyncheon exactly, and all that is internalized
and it's a degree of trauma you know what I
mean when you look at Dion Sanders and then you

(28:41):
look at the Manning kids, you know, Archie Manning was
very much involved in his kids life and made it
very clear what dictated what his kids were not going
to do and what they were going to do, no question.
When di undid it, it's like, no, wait a minute,
you need to know your place. Maybe you worth fifty
million dollars, but you know what I mean, this is

(29:02):
what we're going to do to you.

Speaker 12 (29:03):
So I want to want to add to that as
far as genetic memory when we talk about you know
what she was highlighting, as far as public mentions, as
far as our so.

Speaker 5 (29:15):
You know, our leaders, I won't even don't even want
to say so called.

Speaker 12 (29:17):
Anyone that's put out front, you know, I mean that
we are viewed of that churldren have attention to look
up to and to model is a leader, right regardless
we agree or disagree on if that's a leader for
ourselves or for our children.

Speaker 5 (29:30):
But still that's a leader because they're out front.

Speaker 12 (29:32):
But that can trigger from a hidden memory in our
mind and our genetic about that fear that we're trying
to describe to people trying to get the artists to
understand and and and how to stay safe in that circumstances.
As far as our silence, our lack of advocating for
ourselves or for our community, or standing up for our

(29:54):
leaders right, one of the things too that that I
come to learn through my recent search and through things
that I've been exposed.

Speaker 14 (30:02):
To, is.

Speaker 12 (30:04):
Part of the inactivity of the black community, and for
it to change in our condition is a freeze response.
I really do want people to understand that this is
not a conscious act.

Speaker 5 (30:16):
And that's one thing.

Speaker 12 (30:17):
Another thing about the reactions or responses of trauma that
ain't something thought out. You know what I mean, When
you accepted to something that costs you to be afraid
and you want to fight back, or you want to run,
or you freeze up, that's a response that don't take thoughts.

Speaker 5 (30:32):
We have been programming.

Speaker 12 (30:34):
Genetically as far as through they say from the cave
man through evolution that that's automatic thing, just like when
you get hit your knee and to kick out. That's
what trauma does. As far as response, our inactivity to
respond appropriately most times to our circumstances to improve our
condition is a freeze response.

Speaker 5 (30:52):
It really is.

Speaker 12 (30:53):
We lock up and don't even know why until it's
explained to them because once it's has been identified, now
a dressing stuff, but they have to be identified. People
don't even know why they're any responsible, like they can't move,
or they can't think, or they're not like, why, man,
you ain't doing nothing about your situation? You know, we asked,

(31:14):
I said ourselves that, but we're not. We don't consider it,
not for a second though. Sometimes we just don't think
about what internally that person is experiencing. That's why they say,
don't ask what you're doing or what's wrong with you?
What happened to you. That's one of the things that
we have to get back to is being concerned about
what the person is going through to try to figure

(31:36):
out why they behaving and responding the way they are.

Speaker 5 (31:39):
We need to know this.

Speaker 13 (31:43):
Yeah, and it's and it's you know, there's a lot
of you know, self hate that goes along with I mean,
you know again, it's almost like.

Speaker 14 (31:56):
You it's it's a defense mechanism.

Speaker 13 (31:59):
Yes, And so you know from the perspective that I
think that a lot of people when you're in a
certain space, for example, and I know I'm going to
go back to how that manifests itself in the criminal acts.
But you know, I was when we were talking about
this yesterday. The one thing I was thinking about is,

(32:21):
you know, being put in a situation, for example, like
you're in the house.

Speaker 14 (32:27):
And let's just say that.

Speaker 13 (32:29):
You know, you're in the house and you living good,
and you got the bed and you know they're giving
you something, right, and then you got those who are
actually in the in the slave quarters or in the shacks,
sleeping on the floor. Yes, And you know what happens
when you're sleeping in the house is you know, what

(32:52):
are the consequences if you do something?

Speaker 14 (32:55):
Are you going to go?

Speaker 13 (32:56):
Are they going to put you back out in the field.
And what happens is when we are in those spaces
that would potentially allow us to do something for our people,
then oftentimes the people who are in the field aren't
going to do anything. If you put yourself on the
line when you're in the house. I'm saying, it's like

(33:19):
if I if I come out here and i'm you know,
you say you're going to run away, So I'm like, okay,
let's run away. You want me to rebel if I
go out here and I rebel, then are you going to.

Speaker 14 (33:33):
You know, are you going to participate? You know what
I mean?

Speaker 13 (33:38):
And then we ultimately it's a crowd and a barrel
type of mentality where we always you know, the whole
h and I c because we think that there's only
so many of us that are going to be allowed
to do certain things. And the only power that you
have on the plantation is the power over your own people. Yes,
and so whenever you know, when you take a man

(34:00):
needs power. A man basically by nature, you know, wants
to be a man, right and whatever space you're going
to allow me to be a man in, I'm going
to take advantage of that. And so if I'm in
the street, you know what I mean, working, I mean,
so when the police come by, then why why I'm

(34:22):
not ra rab you know, the monster that I am
with everybody else. Yes, I can't be the you know,
I can't go and be that monster when the police come,
because when the police come, I'm acting weak. But when
it comes to my own people, because I'm giving the
space to be a man, I'm taking out the fact.

Speaker 14 (34:44):
That you have.

Speaker 13 (34:46):
You know, like when you look at the civil rights posters.
There's so many of them says I'm a man. Yeah,
you know what I mean? Yeah, and you have to
be that. That's just like when you in relationship, you
know what I mean. You know, a man, a man
that's in a relationship with a woman that minimizes his

(35:07):
impact to be a man.

Speaker 14 (35:09):
It's a terrible relationship to be in, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 13 (35:13):
A man is looking for a woman that's going to
allow him to be a man that might not be
There's probably some views that don't want to hear that
that's true.

Speaker 14 (35:20):
You know, let me be a man.

Speaker 13 (35:22):
And then if you you know someone's pushing back on
you and allowing you not to be a man, there's.

Speaker 14 (35:27):
You know, it impacts you.

Speaker 5 (35:29):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 13 (35:29):
It's like, let me be a man, stand behind me,
let me you know what I mean. Then you want
to be in the space. Now you're going to put
me in a situation where you know, you're gonna embarrass
me in front of my wife, my kids, and let
me look like I'm not a man. You know that's
a problem. And so I think that a lot of
times and correct me if I'm wrong. When we are
in these situations at least. I'm sure there's other things too,

(35:54):
but part of what I see in the community where
you have people who are able to exert their power
over other people, you know, when it comes to the
street politics, it's a necessity of us as human beings
to be able to have some sort.

Speaker 12 (36:12):
Of power, correct, right, No, I absolutely agree because one
of the things us as children, if we didn't have
a cultivating environment, we have a lot of insecurities, a
lot of self doubt, image issues. So if I'm a
person that already feel inadequate, you know, if I feel

(36:34):
challenged or have a way to assert myself to make
myself feel strong, I'm gonna do just that. You can
believe that because I said our nature to do that,
to be assertive. But it's the conditioning though, I'm saying.
If my environment have me docile, but yet I know
that goes against my nature. Anytime I have an opportunity
to exert myself in that way, even be through aggression,

(36:57):
I'm going to do that, you know. And that's one
the unfortunate issue with our at risk youth, what we
call that promise, is that the biggest issue with our
kids is a lack of autominy, atomany and meaning of
their independence. You know what I mean, lack of power,
you know, I mean not being given a voice. That's
what's driving that rebellion. Not just because they're menaced, they're not.

(37:21):
They not literally waking up in the morning thinking I'm
going to be a menace, a terrorist, I'm an evil person.
That ain't what's happening with these young people. They're they're
trying to exist. They're trying, even I even heard be seen.
So if they have to act terribly to get their attention,
even though it might be at first it ain't, it
ain't healthy. But again, they're doing something in response to

(37:45):
a basic need. They just want to be see me
and hear me. So imagine you get to the point
of a grown adult though all his life, he'd been
suppressed all his life, he's been ignored all this life.
Have you been made to feel insignificant? That's a beast,
I'm telling you. When he finally get out of that

(38:06):
mold and say, elfet, you know what I mean, the
well want to see me one way or other, that's
a beast. This is what we're dealing with with the
criminals justice system at that time when we say, man,
that was a heinus act.

Speaker 5 (38:19):
Man that was wild stuff.

Speaker 12 (38:22):
When you talk to his mama and his grandmama and
the family, they said, no, you know what.

Speaker 5 (38:27):
I mean, we didn't know.

Speaker 12 (38:28):
You know, he ain't an evil person like that.

Speaker 5 (38:30):
We don't know why he did that.

Speaker 12 (38:33):
But I'm saying that his needs wasn't being met even
among that same family that loved him, and trying to
justify why. You know they their the loved one is
not that evil. But still you did not equip him
as through a cultivation to to to to shine with
his good qualities. I promise you the majority of people

(38:55):
incost rated today, based on statistics, have what they call
adverse childhood experiences and based on these social markets, as
far as psychology goes, if you have five or more,
you're more prone to be a criminal. And I promise you,
if you, if you we can survey it as far
as get the data, we can show that the majority

(39:16):
of people in cost rated, if they use those markers,
they have five or more.

Speaker 14 (39:21):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's way, it's way. I mean,
I tried. It's a very.

Speaker 13 (39:25):
Difficult, it's very difficult to explain and and and articulate.

Speaker 14 (39:32):
That issue to two people. I was in court the
other day and and I was there was.

Speaker 13 (39:41):
Ah, a so called gang expert that said that if
you're a member of a certain street gang, you would
have a tattoo of a particular baseball team on your
arm or or you know, wearing a hat. And so
I said, well, what if somebody that happens to be
black walking in a particular neighborhood is wearing that tattoo,

(40:03):
would he be automatically considered to be a gang member?
Of course, he said no, But the reality of it is,
it's true, you know, they would just assume that you're
going to be part of that particular, you know gang.
And so what happens is that when you are constantly
harassed by police and stopped for no reason because of

(40:25):
their you know, stereotypes, then eventually it triggers something in you, right,
especially when you're young. Yes, And then other people And
then on the other hand, a deputy says, well, you know, yeah,
if you are out there like that, if you had
a father in a home, you would not be walking

(40:45):
around with that particular hat on or that particular tattoo,
or maybe hanging around in that particular park. Yes, and
so now what you're doing, you're getting it from both sides.
You're going to get stopped, you know, because they may
stereotype you.

Speaker 14 (41:01):
To be a gang member.

Speaker 13 (41:03):
But then you're also having your parents that are telling
you there's certain things you can't do, which you know
it's true. But at the same time, there is some
psychosis that goes along with telling someone that the world
is different and treats you different and you and you
have to mentally prepare someone to be you know, different

(41:29):
and expect those things.

Speaker 14 (41:31):
It does and it can trigger something in certain people.

Speaker 13 (41:35):
And so that's the reason why I think that you know,
the trauma that that we're dealing with as as people,
that's the reason why. And you know the sometimes you
need a large dose of something to counteract that type
of of conditioning. That's why I'll have you know, people

(42:00):
always say, and I remember and your mom says, have
you ever noticed that the people that did the most
dirt and the dunia are the most religious people?

Speaker 14 (42:10):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 13 (42:11):
Because you almost need that to counteract that trauma. You
need that such a heavy dose of it is that
you know there's no room for you've gone so far
right that the only way to deal with is go
all the way to the left, you know what I mean.
That's why the nation was always so successful at transforming

(42:33):
people who came out of the criminal justice system. They
that psychosis of No matter what you think about the theology,
it was a program that made you believe that you
were You needed to believe.

Speaker 14 (42:49):
That you were a king?

Speaker 13 (42:52):
Yes, right, So how can you know that's you needed
that such a big dose of that to change your mind?

Speaker 11 (42:58):
Correct? You know?

Speaker 13 (43:00):
And they and he understood I had to do something
to their mind and get them to come back.

Speaker 14 (43:05):
I can't just you know, I have to you know.

Speaker 12 (43:07):
Yeah, yeah, Well when I want to add to that too,
because I who hardly agree, but I want to package
it like this, when our community is being under attack,
which by removing the males out the home, the black
males at the home, introducing you know, substance in the
in our communities as for as drugs, alcoholism and all

(43:30):
of that. Also what was removed from us, not just
the male got removed out of home. But I write
a passage I can't emphasize enough that when you're talking
about children and shaping minds and ultimately predicting outcome as
far as behaviors kids based on tradition, based on if

(43:52):
you look at our conditioners, practices have to be initiated
into this adult that we expect them to be. We
can't leave it up to them, and we all lost
that when we have our own issues based on that
toxic stress I talked about, when we have our own
issues by being so overly distracted with trying to make
a living or that fear of what's going on in

(44:14):
the world, and we start neglecting our kids as far
as training goes, as far as home meg.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
Or you know whatever.

Speaker 12 (44:21):
But the whole point of letting a child know at
an appropriate age that you're no longer a child, that
you're growing into a young adult or adulthood, that is
so relevant. I'm talking about relevant beyond what I can
express to you how relevant is and I believe as
far as our community when it comes to the black
trauma and the criminal justice system, that's what we're feeling
the most. We're feeling by initiating these boys and girls

(44:45):
into adulthood just like other any other culture, if you
look at the world as a whole and really examine
why they're successful for those who stands out. You know,
the age is the abs and cercinlations in Africa and
all that that there's an initiation that takes place in
that culture at some point in age for boys and

(45:05):
girls where they realize that they're accountable, not just accountable
for their self, but as a society as a whole.
We as African American people or indigenous people here in America.
It's the only ones can't agree as a rite of passage.
We cannot find some uniformity or some commonality or how
we going to initiate our boys and girls into these

(45:26):
men and women. We do it on our own, and
some people are successful, but your success don't transfer to me.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
We need a program.

Speaker 12 (45:35):
Or system or culture that can be as transferable to
all of us of the same similar experience to where
we can predict outcome that these boys and girls be
men and women that we desire.

Speaker 11 (45:47):
But do you think we ignore a lot of that trauma?

Speaker 15 (45:50):
In other words, in other words, we every day I
believe that we experience some form of trauma, whether it
be driving down the street and looking over your shoulder
because you're seeing the police.

Speaker 11 (46:01):
Pass by, whether it be.

Speaker 15 (46:05):
You know, all of these things come into play to
me when I think about trauma as you talk, and
I'm thinking about all of these things that I experience
in life just daily, you know, about just the response
I have to have and the things that I internalize.
And then once I internalize it, because I don't realize it,
I take it home to the family and then it
comes out in me and the family, whether it be

(46:27):
the job every day grind trying to make it. You know,
all of this stuff is a combination. But then when
you tell me like you said, when you tell me, nah, man,
you're doing too much. You need a little bit therapy.
Now I want to get big headed because I don't think, no, no, no,
I don't need know therapy, and so we bag away
from it. But in all reality, as long as we

(46:49):
continue to deny it, that trauma continued to exist and
we continue to pass it down.

Speaker 11 (46:55):
And it's just like what Zulu said, the nation was
able to take people out.

Speaker 15 (46:58):
And once you're not say, you can't correct the problem
until you first recognize that you have with us. And
I think that it goes on in a cycle. It
continues on because we fail to we don't want to
recognize it.

Speaker 11 (47:11):
We don't feel We don't want to feel.

Speaker 15 (47:12):
Like you said we you know, but once we do,
then we can grass hold on it, and then we
can teach, you know, our youth, and we can teach
the people that's coming under us that this is how
you have to cope with this, or this is how
you have to deal with this, you know. And I
think that's a callus for all of the disunity that
we see amongst each other.

Speaker 11 (47:31):
It's because we've.

Speaker 15 (47:32):
Been so traumatized, so we can't trust each other, right true,
so we we no, no, give me this for.

Speaker 11 (47:39):
A dollar ninety nine. No, we don't. You know, it's
it's it's a whole, it's a whole gamut to this man.

Speaker 12 (47:45):
Man, well, mss, I leave you if I may. You
know what he just said. You know, I have a
few other men that I deal with, and we have
a men's group called the Men's Group Collaborative because we
go to other men's group and we try to see
if we can unify as far as identify with men
issues and come up with applicable solutions. There's three things

(48:08):
that we have identified as far as why men is
not showing up in spaces correctly. Be it in their home,
in their community, and as far as advocacy. Those are
the three things that we concentrate on. Why men it's
not there, I'm saying, it's those spaces like over eighty
five percent women. When I say as far as showing up,
I'm talking about literally showing up in these spaces of family, community,

(48:29):
and advocacy. And we're trying to change that because my
dialogue with women is that they want the men to
show up. It ain't like they don't want the men
to show up because they do something you know, no woman,
you know, live type of thing. No, no, no, no,
men are just not showing up. So what we have
identified is three things. First thing is mental health as
far as depression. That is crippling the black man in

(48:52):
our in our community based on trauma, but it's depression.
The second thing is a lack of respect. They don't
feel that their voice is respected in spaces that we're
asking them to show up, be a they family, be
a day, community, are to advocate. They feel that nobody
want to hear what they're saying anyway, right. And the
third is distrust of other men. So it goes back

(49:12):
to what you're saying, I mean, that's the third prominent
reason that we have identified and I can say that
based on research on why we're not showing up, you
know what I mean, And that where we have to
find solutions and remedies to that and to regain back
that resiliency that that's necessary in those spaces.

Speaker 5 (49:28):
Right.

Speaker 12 (49:30):
So going back to that, the last one is for
us to distrust one another. Wow, you don't even understand
how crucial that is because us by ourselves based on
the heavy lift that we have to deal with as
for as the world and this problems and all of
that we are faced that's threatening our existence, that's overbearing

(49:50):
I'm talking about. That is so way for an individual.
We need each other. I mean, we absolutely the men
need other men to support them as far as the
lift that we have, you know what I mean, in
the mission that we have, you know that's ahead of us.

Speaker 11 (50:02):
Right.

Speaker 12 (50:03):
So if we don't, I'll tell you, if we don't
find a way to repair the damage that we have
called amongst each other, learned how to apologize, hellever, how
to forgive and to set boundaries. If we don't try
to get that right or perfect that we're gonna get
it's gonna get worse. It's what I'm saying, because right now,

(50:23):
if you look at our worth, our youth, our youth
right now is being targeted. They was targeting us as
far as the ones that what Miss Ali always points out,
the civil rights you know what I mean, even through
the nation and all that. That's when we had a
lot of strength going on, you know what I mean,
the forties to fifties, the sixties, right, it was powerful
the seventies. So they targeted the men, you know what

(50:44):
I mean, and the women adults, is what I'm saying.
But now that you get down into twenty twenty five,
it's our youth, I'm telling you, through the imastry through
social media of reducing them down to kids states as
far as these games, you know what I mean, and
not taking other key essentials of life important.

Speaker 5 (51:02):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 12 (51:03):
You know it for as ownership and and and and
again you know, a generational wealth. We hear that talk,
but if you look at what's being portrayed on what
we need to imitate, that ain't what.

Speaker 5 (51:15):
You see, right, So we have to.

Speaker 12 (51:19):
Repair what's been uh made wrong or win a win
a win a stray offline, right, as far as that trust,
I don't want you. We know mental health is necessary.
We got to rectify that. We also know that or
that misconception. We got to erase that misconception that our
voice is is not relevant or is not needed. But
I believe it needs to start with us again shaking

(51:42):
hands one more time.

Speaker 14 (51:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (51:45):
Again.

Speaker 13 (51:45):
I go back and I think that when we look
at the history of of of of Black America and
we think, I think that not to I think everybody
had good intentions, and I think that all of the
movements were very powerful and the objectives were very noble, right.

(52:09):
But I'm of the opinion that as I look back
and I think of all the you know, the civil
rights movement, which was focused on allowing them to.

Speaker 14 (52:20):
Give us a seat at the table. That was basically
most of the movements.

Speaker 13 (52:27):
Then you had some of the you know, Pan Africanist movements,
which was you know, the Marcus Garvey and that, you
know type of movement, which I think in I'll probably
get a lot of flak for this, but I don't
think it was a practical.

Speaker 14 (52:47):
But the movement and.

Speaker 13 (52:50):
I'm going to say this, I mean I'm not in
the nation. In fact, I've never been in the nation temple,
so I'm saying this objectively.

Speaker 14 (52:57):
I'm just looking at the movements. What happened that the
idea that you're going to build a nation? And you know,
obviously they.

Speaker 13 (53:08):
Had their issues, we know the issues that they had
with the individuals, but the blueprint was was a good
blueprint because now when we see ourselves going forward and
really looking at how we're really going to correct the problem,
all the things that you're talking about, like what we're

(53:31):
doing right now is we're talking about, you know, getting
into politics.

Speaker 14 (53:35):
And being involved in your local government, and that's cool.

Speaker 13 (53:39):
We're talking about you know certain you know, local initiatives
and protesting, and you know, the economic development and you know,
generational wealth.

Speaker 14 (53:52):
That's cool.

Speaker 13 (53:54):
But what we need is to build a nation, correct
And if we don't when you talk about trusting each other,
when you talk about the issue of what you think
of yourself, right, what you think of someone who looks
like you, building yourself up, the discipline, those sort of things,

(54:19):
we you know, we have to have a blueprint and
if we don't, and I think that they were the
closest to kind of what we really needed to do
in order to truly correct ourselves. But because of the
theology and because of a lot of what the government
was doing at the time, I don't think that we

(54:42):
truly really understood the significance of that movement and the
fact that they really they were onto something right when
you when you when you look at us, because I mean,
you know, I mean clearly you know, as Muslims, and
when we all all of us here a mus I
mean obviously we believe in the Dean, we believe in

(55:02):
the Los Bona Walla, we believe in God, I mean
we we all of that is important. But I think
that for us as as African American Americans especially, you know,
a lot of this, a lot of those spaces when
it comes to even our own the typical monotheistic religions,

(55:26):
being Christian, Judaism, and Islam, hasn't always given us the
type of attention that we give.

Speaker 14 (55:36):
To them, you know what I mean.

Speaker 13 (55:39):
And so I think that we I think that as
as I I'm thinking about what we need to do,
is I think that we need to get to that uh,
to get to that space in order to basically, as
if we're talking about somehow correcting an issue.

Speaker 12 (55:56):
No, we who mister O Lee agree with you, but
we can't get nowhere without safety, nation building or nothing else.
We cannot respectfully cooperate in a way for real change,
collective change without safety. I need to know that I'm

(56:16):
safe with you for me to really, you know, perform
my best, you know, without having worried about looking at
or peniteni what you got going on. You know, I
mean to focus on my task as hand. I got
to know that I'm protected, right, And we can't say that.
I mean, I'm just going to tell the truth. We
cannot say that amongst ourselves. And it ain't because again,

(56:38):
like I say, what we talk about as far as
to self hate, caunse, we talk a lot about self hate. Yeah,
we're not safe.

Speaker 11 (56:48):
You walk down the street. You walk down the street.

Speaker 13 (56:51):
Although although I don't like the joke Chris Rock what
he says, he's at the ATM.

Speaker 14 (56:58):
He said he ain't looking for the looking for who.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 13 (57:03):
So, I mean, you know, although I didn't like it,
I mean there's some truth about that.

Speaker 14 (57:08):
We are we fear the same thing.

Speaker 13 (57:11):
And you know at that moment you're thinking about you
and yours.

Speaker 11 (57:15):
Yeah, you know, what I mean, and you.

Speaker 13 (57:17):
And your safety as opposed to trying to, you know,
go somewhere where, like you said, I mean.

Speaker 15 (57:24):
You can't, you know, And that goes back to what
she said, because the trauma of it all. It's just
like my wife told me the other day. What was
it was different withes Today we was coming through La.
She looked at the tank and she said, maybe the
tank is low. She said, let's go to the gas station.
I said, no, We're getting back to.

Speaker 11 (57:43):
My end of town.

Speaker 15 (57:44):
And that was you know, she understand that I'm getting
back to my side of town, you know, because I
don't like the area. And that's and it's trauma. That's
just the way it is when you and the thing
about it what comes to my mind is that I
don't know what neighborhood I mean, you know, I don't
know how they're going to respond out here. But I'm
not thinking about the police at that moment. I'm thinking

(58:05):
about my own kind doing something to me in this neighborhood.
And it's a sad reality. But that's the way I
roll every single day. And that's a that's another aspect
of that trauma that I was talking about every day.

Speaker 13 (58:16):
You know what's interesting when you say that, when you
said that, that kind of that that reminded me when
we think about the gang culture.

Speaker 14 (58:23):
Yes, and it's safety.

Speaker 13 (58:25):
Yeah, you're drawn to that that life do the same
safety actually draws you sometimes to criminal behavior. Yes, your
desire to be safe and that's the irony, right, yeah,
it is.

Speaker 14 (58:39):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 13 (58:39):
Yes, I mean you you know, you know, if I'm
not part of this gang or even sometimes even our own,
you know, survival depends on who you're rolling with.

Speaker 14 (58:51):
So everybody is I mean, you know, is uh is
a desire to be safe, sir.

Speaker 12 (59:00):
That's the whole again, that's the solution to trauma. It's safety,
that's the solution.

Speaker 5 (59:06):
Wow.

Speaker 14 (59:07):
Interesting what come on? Man? Wow? Boy? I definitely definitely
appreciate you joining us today. Man, it was very very
h impactful. It is very very informative, and man, I'd.

Speaker 13 (59:22):
Love to have you back so so we continue because
there's so much more to talk about, you know, and
we didn't have that time. But again, man, thank you
for blessing us, you know, with your presence and to
all everybody who tended tuned in. We'll appreciate it and
we'll see you next week, same time, same place, same channel,
and until that time, stay blessed.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
Extress k c A lubland a Prisitution. Thats notice her behind.

Speaker 10 (01:00:00):
You're listening to an encore presentation of this program KCAA
the Inland Talk Express

Speaker 14 (01:00:08):
M