November 23, 2025 • 60 mins
KCAA: Justice Watch with Attorney Zulu Ali on Sun, 23 Nov, 2025
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Park, Doctor Kilbasher.
Speaker 12 (04:53):
Today, like each week, we'll be discussing critical legal issues
affecting our community. Our topic today is corporate punishment. Is
spanking a viable option for parental discipline? And does it
prevent or perpetuate criminal behavior? Joining us in our discussion
today is Arlene Banks and Linda Harveing. Arleen Banks is
the founder of the Community Center for Healthy Minds CCHM.
(05:17):
As of twenty fourteen, the Community Center for Healthy Minds
was approved as a domestic violence provider with the Riverside
County Probation Department. She is a graduate from the University
of Phoenix, where she acquired a bachelor's degree in human
services and a master's degree in Marriage Family Therapy. Arling
Banks is also a certified counselor for domestic violence, parenting,
(05:39):
child abuse, and anger management and currently advocates for domestic
violence victims in the District Attorney Victim's Office. Linda Harvey
is a retired single mother and she just happens to
be my mother, So at any rate, so today we'll
be talking about this issue of corporal punishment, which remains
(06:02):
a controversial issue here in the United States. The American
Academy of Pediatrics and numerous other professional organizations have come
down firmly against the use of physical punishment by parents,
and the laws regarding corporate punishment.
Speaker 9 (06:17):
Vary from state to state.
Speaker 12 (06:18):
I believe there's about nineteen states that currently allow the
striking of a child in any school setting, and of
the thirty one states and the district of Columbia that
banned the practice in public schools, only New Jersey and
I will also include private schools, and many schools give
the misbehaving child a choice between suspension and being beaten
(06:43):
with a paddle. So again, I mean, this actually remains
an extremely controversial issue with regards to corporal punishment.
Speaker 9 (06:53):
I think that.
Speaker 12 (06:55):
For many of us, I think generationally, I know that
in my generation, corporal punishment was something that was that
was very very common, and you know, it was not
seen to seem to have been something that is not
that is negative or would have a negative impact on
a child if it's uh, you know, done in a
(07:17):
in a particular way that's not uh, you know, overly obsessive,
I guess you would say, And so I guess the
question is what is corporal punishment?
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Right?
Speaker 12 (07:30):
And then there's a difference between what is corporal punishment
and and when is it physical abuse? I know that
there are individuals who believe that corporal punishment UH is
basically just the use of physical pain UH in response
to a behavior that has been deemed inappropriate, and then
physical abuse is something that would go beyond UH what
(07:52):
would be the norm of physical pain UH in response
to this this behavior. There are those that believe either
basically corporal punishment in and of itself is actually.
Speaker 9 (08:05):
Physical abuse.
Speaker 12 (08:06):
So I guess I'm going to begin by speaking with
UH with miss Banks and get her to get her
initial response to her position. As far as corporal punishment
is concerned.
Speaker 13 (08:21):
There's back in. Well, let's talk about the definitions first.
The definition of corporal punishment is so to call psychological
and physical pain. Discipline is to teach by teaching children's
responsibility for their own actions.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
M H.
Speaker 13 (08:44):
So we take the word punishment back in the day
as punishing your children, which is totally different from discipline.
Speaker 12 (08:53):
Okay, and so when you say punishment like corporal punishment
and discipline. When you say punishment, you're thinking that any
kind of of action against the child or any kind
of are opposing.
Speaker 9 (09:07):
Any kind of of.
Speaker 12 (09:10):
I guess, for lack of a better term, any kind
of discipline on the child that would cause any type
of pain would actually be punishment. However, something other than
causing physical or mental harm on the child would be
called discipline, right, Okay, I'm sorry, okay.
Speaker 13 (09:26):
Discipline is to teach by suing, teaching the children responsibility,
and the other one is psychological and psychological and causing
pain is punishment is punishment.
Speaker 12 (09:42):
So in essence, basically corporal punishment basically is not discipline.
Speaker 9 (09:47):
It is actually more or less of some sort of
mission or physical punishment.
Speaker 12 (09:52):
But discipline is actually considered to be something completely different.
In other words, trying to to uh impose was some
sort of action on a child other than causing mental
or physical harm in order to correct action or to
impose some sort of lesson. I guess you could say, yes, okay, yes,
(10:15):
all right, And what about you.
Speaker 9 (10:18):
Miss Harvey as far as as far as.
Speaker 12 (10:22):
The issue of the difference between corporal punishment and physical abuse.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Well, corporal punishment and physical abuse is the way you
put it like that, it's almost the same. Corporate punishment
is a major thing, which I wouldn't consider corporal punishment.
I might be mistaken, but I wouldn't consider corporal punishment
as of spanking as a corporal punishment. So from your now,
(10:55):
physical abuse is like if you take your child and
you spanking so hard that there's webs all over me.
Excuse the language, but it's a little behind is red
and and all that needs bleeding. Now, that's that's physical abuse,
(11:17):
and that's not a discipline. Spanking is to me is different.
I mean, I spanked y'all, wouldn't spank you so hard
that you would need to go to the doctor that
you couldn't sit down? And and that's the difference as
(11:37):
far as I'm concerned. So I don't see anything wrong
with spanking.
Speaker 12 (11:42):
So for you that what you're thinking is that basically
spanking is within the realm of discipline, and the other
part anything beyond spanking. And when you say spanking, spanking
in a manner in which you said that doesn't cause
physical I mean visual physical.
Speaker 7 (12:00):
Uh uh abuse.
Speaker 12 (12:04):
Or preventing someone from setting down. From your perspective, that's
that's within the realm of discipline. But if beyond that
would be not necessary.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
And like I said, you know, like you might hurt
just a little bit, but you know, you wouldn't want
to spank your child so hard and so much that
that child cannot set down, you know, So I guess
we'll go here. Do you want them to hurt? That's
(12:38):
been fearing children, So what's that? Do you want them
to hurt? Well, they can hurt just a little bit,
but not so much that you know. I know, my
mother spiked me, and you know, I felt it for
a little while and then it went away, and I
have and I don't think it affected me mentally. I
(13:03):
don't think it especially mentally. I mean, it didn't make
me want to every time I see somebody reading this
arcle to go out and fight. My mother spanked me.
And my mother now once I was grown, we were
the best of friends. My mother been dead over twenty
something years and I still miss my mother some sometime
(13:23):
at night. I even still cry cause I can't talk
to her. I mean, she didn't hurt me so bad
that that I going. The next few days I sat
down and bet and jump up cause m who that's
where Mama spank me. Like I said, it hurt a
few a little while, and that was it. And it
also taught me. That taught me that if you do
(13:47):
something wrong, there's a consequence. Consequences too when you do
something wrong. I mean, ever since I can remember going
in the store, I wouldn't dare pick up something or
try to rob somebody because I know that if I
do this and it's wrong, that I won't be punished
(14:10):
for it, one way or the other. The basic punishment
is generally is jail. Sometimes it's death, especially when you
see these kids that do things and they try to
run away and and my idea is that you know,
it teaches kids that if you do something wrong, there
(14:31):
is you have to pay for it. There's consequences, but
you don't have to dodge that child, dog that child
out and and do certain things, you know, because great
physical you know, punishment like that, but it's also but
(14:51):
it does teach the child that if they do something wrong,
there's consequences.
Speaker 12 (14:58):
Well, I think that, I guess going on the other
side those I guess the some of the organizations, especially
some of the psychologists and other individuals and other child
specialists are suggesting that it has the opposite effect. According
to people like Stacy Patent and some of these other
(15:21):
individuals have actually written and stated that the majority of
the individuals who are incarcerated actually had been.
Speaker 9 (15:34):
Subjected to some sort of you know, corporal punishment.
Speaker 12 (15:37):
Now, I don't really know when when they say corporal
punishment to what degree they're speaking of if they're talking
about a spanking, or how far it goes. But at
least that's the announcis of the of the of the
of the of those professionals that correct.
Speaker 13 (15:53):
Yes, So you have to also remember, see the definitions
are totally wrong. Discipline is to teach by assuming responsibility.
Punishment is to call psychological and physical pain. As far
as corporal punishment, it's the same thing as punishment. See
(16:14):
when we grew up, Yes, back in the day, there
was a weapon's spankings, probably severe, some severe than others. Uh,
But it does it does harm a child psychologically as
they grow up. And the reason why I say that
is because of all the experiences that I've had of
(16:35):
two hundred and sixty three p individuals a week has
called them traumatic experiences growing up because they not only
learned it, but they also became violent themselves. And so
what they do is the generation from generation you spank
your children, this generation.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
They're used to it. Now we've j Now these.
Speaker 13 (16:53):
Shouldn't have just learned what you have just gotten. And
that pattern keeps going. And now today it's totally different.
See a little bit back in the day, it was
okay to whip your to spend your children. Today is
totally different. Totally different things are happening with individuals psychologically, mentally,
mental abuse, physical abuse, uh, mental illness, and uh, it's
(17:17):
happening out here s so much and it's so dominant
in our society as far as domestic violence, child abuse.
And I mean, all you have to do right about
now is to take your your your two fingers and
pull a child by his ear.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
You have a child abuse case.
Speaker 7 (17:34):
Mm.
Speaker 13 (17:35):
Because see, there's another way of being able to communicate
with your children other than than to make them fearful
of you, Because that's exactly what's gonna happen. They gonna
become fearful, They're not even gonna wanna come talk to you.
We have to we have to be able to communicate
and allow our children to be able to communicate with us.
You have to remember children have feelings that they're and
(17:58):
they have thoughts, and their opinion is a valot and
they are to be respected. So if they don't get that,
you're going to have some kind of resentment. Not only
if you're going to have a resentment, you're going to
have a rebellious child.
Speaker 9 (18:13):
Well, Rosa, you're the youngest person yes, so would you
be in the youngest person at the table.
Speaker 12 (18:23):
I want you to give me your opinion with regards
to the issue of a corporal punishment.
Speaker 14 (18:30):
Well, I feel like growing up I was. I grew
up in a spinking culture and that really enabled me
to respect my mom and my dad and have that respect.
And it wasn't much of fear. It was just a
respective disappointment that I gained through the spanking when I
was younger. But then again that's just my case. But
I do see that now in our culture new parents
(18:51):
and growing up, a lot of them do not spank
their children, and a lot of them do not have
that discipline because of what they've learned or what they've
been psychologically kind of grown up with to not spank
their kids because they have that trauma in a way.
But for me, as for me, I feel like me
it helped me, Like my parents disciplined me in a
(19:13):
way where it was like spanking and it was into
the max it would hurt, but it did teach me
kind of to learn to not misbehave because I knew
I was going to get that spanking or sometimes that
pull in the ear which was weird, or those eyes
the look, yeah, the look. But I feel like in
a way it did kind of create a certain specific
(19:34):
disconnect within my parents when it came to talking about feelings. Yes,
because I was so fearful of communicating with my parents
about my feelings because I didn't want a disappointment. So
I feel like that's where that meany kind of discinet
came forward. But as far as me and the future
having children and spanking them and all of that, I
feel like I would want to incorporate a little bit
(19:55):
of it, but at the same time, I would try
to stay a little bit away from it. Fifty to
fifty on this issue, but seeing my culture and how
kids are growing up nowadays, two kind of growing up
without that guidance from their parents, and really you have
kids calling the police on their parents you know, you
have kids who are brave enough to go out there
(20:16):
and talk back to their parents, which is something that
I couldn't do. I couldn't even picture that because I
knew I was going to get that look or that speinking.
So that's where I see the disconnect of maybe it's
kind of wrong in a way sometimes to stir away
from it fully because I feel like it is in
a way necessary to create that.
Speaker 12 (20:33):
I think that basically being a grandparent, and basically you know,
obviously you know, I was, you know, there was corporal
punishment growing up for me, but it was not something
that I got very often.
Speaker 9 (20:48):
I mean, I think that probably I could count.
Speaker 12 (20:50):
On one hand how many times it happened. And I
think that once you know, once you get it, then
obviously all you have to.
Speaker 9 (21:00):
Do is showed me the belt. And I'm you know
what I'm saying, I didn't, you know, I was kind
of like I didn't do it anymore.
Speaker 12 (21:07):
And you know, one of the interesting things is that,
you know, I got a whooping from my spanking from
my my mother and my grandmother, but the person that
I feared the most was probably my grandfather. But the
irony is is he never whoops me, but I knew
that he could, right, and it kind of like I
figured that if he gave me one, it would really hurt, right,
(21:28):
So you know, it's kind of one of those things.
But then now when you see younger people doing it,
it's not really at least in my opinion, I think
that it's more than just whooping, you know what I'm saying,
Because I mean nowadays, when you know, you see someone
getting a spanking and then they hugged the child, that
(21:51):
never happened to me.
Speaker 9 (21:52):
And so in other words, what I'm saying is is
that then what.
Speaker 12 (21:55):
Happens is I believe that people believe that if I
act up, I'll get I'll get love, you.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Know what I'm saying.
Speaker 12 (22:04):
And so sometimes people don't know how to spank people,
you know what I mean, because I can't, you know,
like for example, like when I spank my children, they
couldn't run to their their mother or grandmother because you
just got in trouble. So you know, it's a rap, right.
But now younger people, you know, I think that they
do the opposite thing. It's like if one person believes
(22:26):
in that in that type of punishment and the other
person don't believe in that type of punishment. It kind
of sends mixed messages to a young child. That says,
it almost gives a complete opposite message if it's not
imposed properly.
Speaker 9 (22:39):
Right.
Speaker 12 (22:39):
So, if it's like if I'm going to get a
hug when I get a spanking, you know, I think
it might give it I'll give off the wrong things.
I think it's more to it than just the spanking itself, right,
And so I think that which complicates the whole subject
matter because now you know, like you're saying, miss thanks
that obviously there are situations where pop people who do
(23:00):
get corporate subject to the corporate punishment where it could
have a psychological a negative psychological effect if it's if
it's given, you know, obviously it's clear that I think
everybody would have would agree that if you you whip
a child too hard, that that's abuse.
Speaker 9 (23:16):
I don't think anybody disagrees with that. Number one, But.
Speaker 12 (23:19):
Number two, I think it also, uh makes it more
complicated because there's a lot if you know, we we
if you're just whooping the child and that's all you're
doing and there's nothing else that goes along with it,
then I think that basically that's also a negative thing,
is so I think it creates some more you know,
(23:39):
you kids can't whoop a child for everything that they do,
you know what I mean, there has to be a.
Speaker 9 (23:43):
Lesson behind it.
Speaker 12 (23:44):
And sometimes you know, spanking the child has you know,
some people replace spanking a child with they think that
that parenting begins with spanking, it ends with spanking, and
that's all.
Speaker 9 (23:56):
Then that's also a negative thing. So it's a.
Speaker 12 (24:00):
It's a little bit you know, complicated, and I think
how it happen generally, the way you were disciplined and
the effect that it had on you will have an
impact on how you feel about corporal punishment. Right if
you got slapped on the hand every now and then,
and you got a little spanking on the bottom every
now and then, I'm sure you will have a different
(24:20):
attitude than those who were like man, you know, like
you know, getting beat with you know objects.
Speaker 9 (24:28):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 12 (24:29):
Yeah, And when I'm talking about objects, is anything that
they can get their hands on.
Speaker 13 (24:33):
Yeah, that used to be back in the day, anything
you get your hands on. But today you're going to
have a child of these skates and you know, today
it's easier to be able to allow your children to
communicate with you firstus having to get us spanking, because.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
We all make mistakes. Children make mistakes too, but yet we.
Speaker 13 (24:49):
Want to punish them for making a mistake when they
learned it from us. That's the part that I have
an issue with. And then you know, and then they
become rebellious. Well who are you in the back that
might be subconsciously.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Unaware of who are you? Yeah, well, I agree with
you on that point. You know, if the if the
adult's doing bad in the house and different things, yep,
I would say they you know, they they shouldn't be
trying to punish their kids. But I would like to say,
is that Okay, I did speak you. Did you ever
(25:23):
feel like you couldn't communicate with me?
Speaker 7 (25:26):
No?
Speaker 4 (25:26):
No, I think, But I always felt that I could
talk to my mother. And another thing is now I've
tried some of the know, the standing in the corner stuff,
because before we left Tennessee, I used to keep children,
and but I did at the time. I did tell
(25:48):
the parents, I said, now I would keep your child.
I said, if I expect your child to mind me
and do what I say. If your child cannot mind me,
I said, I will them. I would not beat them,
but I will spank them. And so if you have
a problem with that, I cannot keep your child. And
(26:08):
there's only one person I know that didn't let me
keep their child. Everybody else kept their child. And the children,
you know, they seemed to love me. Every time I
go home, they won't everybody wanna see me? Take me
out to eat. Here's Miss Linda's back. Are you back
to stay? Miss Linda? That before they got grown and you.
(26:28):
I tried the c you know, standing in the corner,
and I was sitting there one day. One of the
first one that got in trouble was one of my granddaughters.
When he's done, I said, go stand in the corner.
Then here come this other little girl. You standing in
that corner, Then here come this little boy. And what
I found out they were doing. They were standing in
(26:49):
the corner and they were making little signs with each
other and laughing it and going up and and they
loved standing in the corner. That wasn't a punishment for them.
That was like a game. So I said, oh, you
can't stand at the card hu. But you know, like
if I spank somebody. I I let them know why
(27:12):
they're getting or speaking. I just don't spank 'em and
say go set down. I go there. I said, now
you got this little spanking you did X, Y and Z.
Do you understand? And they will let me know yes,
ma'am A no, And I would you know, go over
(27:34):
with her, you know and stuff. But like I say, uh, like,
now okay, they've taken chastisement out of school. The teachers
can't say nothing to the kids. Basically almost the parents
can barely say something to the kids, you know, depending
on or do anything to kids. And since that's happening,
(27:58):
you see all these shootings. I mean before I guess
nineteen eighty something, you didn't see kids going to school
shooting up kids because somebody called them a a dope
or or funny you look funny. You didn't see that stuff.
And I in need, like no, like going in the stores.
(28:19):
It was this little boy. He was showing that, falling
out in the floor, throwing stuff off the shields and
going up and his mother said, well, I guess she
finally got tired. She said, if you don't stop, I
won't spank you. And he looked at it. He said,
and put his hands on his little hips.
Speaker 7 (28:36):
He was a s.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
A small child. I don't think you know who you
talking to. Mm. You know, if I said that to
my mama, like I said, she just paying that home.
And I think if I said that to her, she
right woulda knocked me out. But you know, like you
talking about spanking somebody with anything you can get your
hands on. You hear candians say that out time. Man,
(29:02):
I don't understand it because I don't remember my mama
taking which color were in plugs, those cars, if sentier
cards and whipping me with it, or taking anything I
taking her big shoe up and whipping me with it,
or taking her hand. And I don't I don't remember
my mother. My mother didn't do that. I think maybe
(29:25):
they did it this way. I don't know.
Speaker 9 (29:27):
They probably did it all over the place.
Speaker 12 (29:28):
It's just basically different individuals have probably different you know, experiences.
Speaker 15 (29:34):
With the Yeah, And I think it's just a culture shift,
you know, because I can remember when I was coming up.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
You know, the neighbors were allowed to do it.
Speaker 15 (29:42):
My mother gave a neighbor if you see my child
doing something wrong, you know, give that spankash even when
I went to school, if I did something wrong, they
sent me to the principle. I can remember getting that paddle,
and believe me, I thought twice about it. I wouldn't
say that it now that I look back on it,
you know, I thought twice about doing anything, even when
my grandmother whooped me. My mother whopped me, you know,
(30:04):
I thought about that. You know, I thought about doing
something wrong, you know. And I wouldn't say it allowed
this disconnect between me and me and me and my parents.
Speaker 7 (30:14):
You know.
Speaker 15 (30:15):
I think what it did was it put me in
a place. Now that didn't mean that I didn't go
go off and start doing things on my own, but
it wasn't. I can't equate it to the whoopings. I
can't say I did this or I acted out this
way because the whoopings. But I firmly believe that there
has to be some form of consequences. And now that
I have my own children, you know, and trying to
(30:37):
discipline them, you know, when I've tried almost everything in
the book, and sometimes I let them choose what they
want to do, I say, hey, you know, because at
some point in time, I say, look, this is what
you did. Now you know you did this wrong. What
do you think your punishment should be? And I allowed
them to give me some feedback. They might say, well
(30:58):
that I'm gonna go out here, I'm gonna clean up,
I'm gonna do this, or Dad, I want to go
in the corner.
Speaker 7 (31:02):
I'll do this at the corner.
Speaker 15 (31:04):
But sometimes when you take the toys and you give
them that, and you take the toys and put them
in the corner, they know that in ten minutes they'll
be out the corner, so they can repeat this behavior again.
But sometimes I know that, look, if I give them
that little pack, they don't think about it, you know.
So I think that that communication between that parent and
(31:25):
that child should always be open where you discuss with
them like this is what you did, you knew what
was wrong, and then even afterwards you embrace them and
you talk to them, I love you and this and that.
It's just that I think that over a period of
time there's culture shift. You have people that has been
abused in their lives and they write these books and
they totally against this because they suffer disabuse. You got
(31:47):
people that ain't never got a whooping a day in
their life, and they feel that they can write this
long biography or long book on this subject matter and
they never had a spanking in their life. But they
only going on statistics that come from a totally different
arena where you grew up in, you know. So I
think that it has this, you know, it has this,
you know, fifty to fifty you know, had like Rosa says,
(32:08):
you know, sometimes it have those effects on children and
sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 12 (32:12):
So yeah, So anyway, so I think that we've got
a call her. But at any rate, now with regards
to the issue of the of now, with regards to
the issue of the corporal punishment, I think that goes
(32:34):
beyond the what we consider to be because it's it's
really as you're looking at it and you're seeing that,
you're seeing all these states that are outlawing the whole
issue of corporal punishment.
Speaker 9 (32:48):
And I think we got.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
A call her.
Speaker 10 (32:56):
That I'm just because I understand child abuse. I was
a foster plants, but you know they took out the discipline.
You cannot discipline your kid at all. I mean, I'm
all false the kids on anything. The kids, the kids
parents kid was try to discipline the kids from stealing,
(33:18):
and they took them away from him because they grabbed
him back warm and curse them didn't put their hands
on him. But when you go out and uh, when
that kid goes out in the street, uh, the tops
don't look at him like either a kid or they
don't worry about the corporal punks. That kid does something,
you don't even have them a gun or knight the
(33:41):
blow his brains out. The kid does something, the parents
are libel. I'm not saying you suposed to just beat
the crab. I remember when my father they would be
charging my father with a saw where the tent to
kill the way I used to get it when I
was young. But I would I would like say I
would bring home these or f that was unacceptable. When
(34:04):
he finished with me, the ntric book card was aid
and beings I'm serious. You would you you would think
I heard belife that he would think about stuff. If
you didn't have no bad attitude for his father or
his mother or his grandmother because they disciplined, we would
turn out. It would be a lot more in the
(34:25):
world if they would not say him, but you know,
you shouldn't whip your kids, put whips all over them
and all that but pop your kid on the foot
for doing something wrong and let them know this repercussion,
the consequences for your actions. They didn't took that away
(34:45):
from so we have to like, we have to like
accept it. They call the cops on you, I mean
the teachers and that the systemat tell of kids and
if your parents do anything to you, call let us know.
And they call and take a good kid away from
(35:06):
a good home. A lot of these foss agency just
got these kids this big money. Uh just like hergy.
They make it over I think two three million dollars
a month just placing kids. And it's almost like just
like a temp agency. They get the kids, take them
(35:28):
out of a good home, put them in a bad home.
The people ain't worrying about nothing but a paycheck. They
don't care, you know. I mean, you got some that
care about the kids, but the majority of them looking
at a paycheck. So you really, you honestly gave that
kid some serious or mental issues just by taking them
(35:49):
away from a good room waiting them. And you know,
I just I've seen both ends of it, you know,
I just uh, I would think that it's a better way.
You know, they should let parents discipline the kids. I mean,
in school, I would get it from my teacher. Back
(36:11):
to that, Like, but I said, your neighbors saw you
doing something, clamming in somebody's window, they would tag you behind.
Now your neighbors. Everybody's scared of the kids. They're scared.
The neighbor is the teachers, they're scared of the kids,
and the kids running around ain't scared of nobody. So
(36:34):
you know, I know it's a double ed sword, but
you know it's something to think about anyway. Yeah, yeah,
but anyway I can teach you guys, accept from my call.
Speaker 9 (36:50):
Okay, well, thank you for calling. I appreciate that.
Speaker 10 (36:52):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 9 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (36:54):
So, I know that.
Speaker 12 (36:54):
Basically one of the things that that when we talk
about and there's there's a significant studies and writings and
literature out there when it comes to the African American
communities that would suggest that the the the act of
discipline children by whipping them actually came from slavery before
(37:19):
and that basically you've heard that, haven't you done. Yeah,
I mean, now I know that basically, and the only
continent it would be true if you didn't think on
the continent that never happened I think that obviously on
the continent that it does. But there are those who
believe that basically we incorporated that in punishing our kids
because it was learned behavior from the slave master.
Speaker 9 (37:43):
That's that was the that's.
Speaker 12 (37:44):
The that's not an anomaly. That is a very common
among black psychologists who are against corporal punishment. That tends
to be where they believe that that is kind of
like the catalyst of it. So what do you think
about that?
Speaker 7 (38:01):
Dog, Well, just.
Speaker 16 (38:05):
Let me make a few other quick points. I'll addressed
that good conversation. I think three points. Fundamentally, we have
to have balance, and you know, we go to these
extremes nonspanking, spanking, etc.
Speaker 7 (38:19):
We need balance. When you stop and.
Speaker 16 (38:21):
Think about the nature of the child, the young adult
wants boundary set. So by nature, the young child is
going to challenge authority and what we do in the
moment is going to define what that child does from
that point on. So we have to look at is
it youthful defiance or is it just arbitrary neglance on
the child's part that's going to determine our action at
(38:42):
the end of the day. Secondly, when we look at
the concept of violence. Individuals are driven by pain and pleasure.
It's been psychologically proven for decades across the board those
two things drive, and so we have to look at
certain communities and its perception. In Black communities, I think
(39:04):
the physical discipline is more inherent because.
Speaker 7 (39:08):
Of the circumstances.
Speaker 16 (39:09):
You lose your life a lot easier in a black
community or a community of color if you don't immediately
respond and have certain boundaries in place, whether that be
on the street, whether that be with the police engagements, etc.
Speaker 7 (39:21):
So a lot of the parents.
Speaker 16 (39:22):
Will use that initial physical pain to get that instant
response and let that child know you cannot cross these lines. Now,
a balance parent would come back and say, I'm going
to use other forms of discipline to get my child
in place. When we stop and think about discipline, let's
be clear, discipline and self control. You're teaching that child
(39:43):
to control himself for herself. The other thing is I
remember in my day with my father. You know, if
I hadn't got the physical discipline, what was more impactful.
Speaker 7 (39:57):
For me was a psychological discipline.
Speaker 16 (39:59):
So when my father discipline, which was very rare, if
that physical discipline did not proceed, the psychological discipline, I
would have been a confused individual because I wouldn't have
understood why psychologically I was being put in this nexus.
Whereas the physical discipline allowed me to understand the psychological discipline,
(40:20):
and so I was able to embrace it and get
through it much better. True to answer your question when
you talk about what we picked up in.
Speaker 7 (40:27):
Slavery, but let's be real clear.
Speaker 16 (40:29):
In the African culture, we had five components of manhood
and womanhood development, and there was paying throughout that whole
process through the rights of passage. When a young boy
would have to step into that manhood, he was put
into venues where physical pain was dominant, even though it
didn't come from the actual elders. It came from the experience.
(40:50):
He had to go out and fight the lion, he
had to go out and fight the warrior tribe. So
we had that end, but it was the understanding of
the necessity.
Speaker 7 (41:01):
Of why that was important.
Speaker 16 (41:03):
And I think what we see today is we lack
that and somebody said it so well, we lack that
understanding of what that.
Speaker 7 (41:10):
Tool is used for.
Speaker 16 (41:12):
I think it's going to take a holistic approach when
we discipline the child to have a thorough understanding of
what is happening in the process. But I'll say this,
I wouldn't blame anybody who did not or who did
use discipline because their personal circumstances has to dictate what's
going on. And at the end of the day, let
me tell you something, nobody's going to tell me what
(41:32):
to do with my children. To get my children to
the point of where they need to be, You're going
to look up and at the end of the day,
they're going to be looking at a life sentence or
something else because you did not put the boundaries on board.
So I had to do my all my children or grown,
but I had to do whatever I had to do
to make sure that those boundaries were clear because I
knew what my children were going to have to face
(41:52):
had they come up and at the end of the
day if they didn't, or if they got caught up
in a situation where either they lost their lives or
got in prison or got physically harmed. And I didn't
set those boundaries, that was on me. And I clearly
understood that, my wife clearly understood that. So I want
to just be clear. Going back, I think Rosa said
it well. I think, but Law said it so well
and I think it was echoed. I think you have
(42:13):
to have some semblance of balance, and I think that's
in everything we do in our society.
Speaker 7 (42:18):
We need that balance.
Speaker 13 (42:21):
And that balance is communication as well, because if you
don't allow your children to be able to communicate with you,
you're gonna have a power struggle because they're going to
go right out there to society and they're gonna start
listening to somebody out there on the streets because we're
not paying attention.
Speaker 16 (42:39):
See, I would agree with you, But in adding to that,
I would say this, your children are gonna never communicate
with you if they don't respect you. Yes, and if
we don't put those defining mechanisms in place to dictate
what the child can't expect from us or what the
child should not expect from us, the child should be
crystal clear, as elders, as parents, as those that are
(43:02):
leading the child in the process, what we expect from
that child. How can you condemn a child when that
child does not know the boundaries of where they can
and cannot go. So whatever it takes to establish that
my children don't have a problem whatsoever in respecting and
communicating committed when me, they come to me first, but
(43:22):
they know I'll give them a certain look and they
know at the end of the day, I've got to
back up.
Speaker 7 (43:27):
Okay, So those kinds of things have to be built.
I agree with you.
Speaker 16 (43:29):
Communication is important, but most importantly, inclusion and respect that
the child needs to be given should lead the process.
Speaker 13 (43:38):
Okay, so respect, let's talk about that word respect.
Speaker 7 (43:43):
We have a lot of.
Speaker 13 (43:43):
People at our general and the way things are today, respect,
the way children are being brought up today, the way
we're being brought up, alcohol, drugs, technology, all of this,
and then we have parents because none of us come
to up parentee manual not none of us come in
a parenting MANUALM. So if we didn't come with a
(44:05):
parenting manual, our parents didn't come with one. Their parents
didn't come with one. So to say this is that
when children are in substance abuse, alcohol workaholics are left behind.
They have that no one to be able to communicate with.
You can't talk to an addict. So you got both
parents off your own drugs and alcohol. Now they're being
(44:29):
raised by themselves and they're thrown out there because if
they even get with someone to say, oh I care
about you, it's over.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
It's over.
Speaker 13 (44:38):
And now you might be in the hands of somebody
that has what the best of violence issue, physical physical abuse,
someone that has been traumatized themselves. Because now the prayers
pray on the vulnerable, and when the prayers pray on
the vulnerable.
Speaker 7 (44:55):
Well, that's why you have to go tool so quickly.
I don't want to, but again, that's why you have
to go to the root cause. And addic.
Speaker 16 (45:04):
Somebody out there slaying drugs, somebody's out there doing violence extremely,
somebody's representing in the set and the gang set. Those
are symptoms of root causes that have not been dealt with,
and far too often in our communities, we don't deal
with the root cause because it's a lot easier to
deal with the symptom. It takes some discipline, as we
talked about, to deal with that root cause. So when
(45:25):
we look at that, if you come in and telling
me to stop this.
Speaker 7 (45:28):
Don't do that, etc.
Speaker 16 (45:29):
But don't get to the real psychological trauma that caused
me to do it in the first place.
Speaker 7 (45:34):
I'm gonna look at you like you're crazy and tell
you to get up out of my face.
Speaker 16 (45:37):
That's where and respect comes when I can see that
you can meet my needs? Are you even under hav
an understanding of them? I mean, far too often we
step into these situations and we don't understand the person's normality,
and they look at how the heck you gonna help
me when you don't even know what I've been through?
Real quickly, when it came through the spanking component, I'll
(45:58):
tell you, the spanking component from me was probably one
of the best things that I got because it gave
me the ability to have a an equilibrium as it
related to my own children. I probably would have been
far more abusive to my children had I not gotten
this thanking because I understood the degree of pain, I
understood how I felt, and I understood what I.
Speaker 7 (46:18):
Didn't want them to fill in the process.
Speaker 16 (46:20):
So it gave me a reference points and a gauge
to really say, Okay, how can I use this this
component to deal with my actual children? But that was
only me, and that's why I said, and I qualified
I would not go in any individ in situation and
tell somebody what they should or should not do. They
have to use their own common sense, their own upbringing,
and their own reference points to decide what's best for them,
(46:42):
and then if it's against a societal norm, they've got
to ask themselves. Am I willing to face the consequence.
So you know, that's a personal situation, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 12 (46:52):
I was just gonna say real quick, I mean, as
far as the issue of respect, I think that's really
one of the things that I see most and I'm
that bothers me obviously with children is that I'm not really.
Speaker 9 (47:11):
I'm bothered by bad kids, by bad kids.
Speaker 12 (47:15):
And when I say that, when I say bothered by
bad kids, this is what I'm talking about. If I
go to a movie theater, or if I go to
a store, or if I go to a certain place
and I see a child that's unruly and talking back
to their parents, it bothers me because I'm not used
(47:39):
to that.
Speaker 9 (47:40):
I did not allow my children to do it, and
I could not do that.
Speaker 12 (47:47):
And you know, the thing about it is is that
I cannot really see anything productive coming out of a
child that basically is an unruly child, right, and they
learned it early on, right, And so the problem, of course,
(48:07):
when it comes to dealing with and people say, well,
there's not really bad children.
Speaker 9 (48:12):
But the reality of.
Speaker 12 (48:13):
It is is that if you cannot take your child
out to a place and allow that, and that child
disrespects you and will not do what you're telling them
to do, that's a problem, man, that is a big problem.
Speaker 9 (48:28):
I don't understand. And like I said, I'm not a specialist.
I'm just a parent.
Speaker 12 (48:34):
And the reason why the problem is because I don't
understand that.
Speaker 9 (48:37):
I don't understand how.
Speaker 12 (48:40):
You know, I never got in my mother's face, I
never cussed my mother. I could not do any of
those things right because I always knew that it was wrong.
I didn't run around stores. I didn't act up in restaurants.
I didn't act up in public places. My children didn't
(49:04):
run around stores. They didn't act up in public places.
If I said you need to set down, you need
to set down, and that was kind of it. And
and basically what happens is that, you know, the reality
of it is is that I went out in the world. See,
I wasn't under you know, the the the thing about
(49:24):
it is being raised as a by a single mother,
is that when I went out into the world, I
knew I had a lot of discipline right my career
path was was paramilitary things, going into the Marine Corps,
you know, being a police officer. I was disciplined playing sports,
(49:44):
playing football. I was an extremely disciplined person. I don't
know why, but I'm assuming it's because I was raised
in a in a culture and in a situation where you.
Speaker 9 (49:59):
You had discipline.
Speaker 12 (50:00):
There's a certain way you carried yourself as a man, right,
And nowadays we're very lacking on people carrying themselves not
necessarily disrespecting the parents or other people, but also having
respect for yourself.
Speaker 7 (50:21):
Right.
Speaker 9 (50:21):
You don't do that that.
Speaker 12 (50:23):
You don't walk around looking this way, you don't dress
this way, you don't do these things. And until the
one important thing we talked about this last week, Miss
Banks and Miss Harvey, the main thing that we have
in our community that we're lacking is discipline.
Speaker 9 (50:42):
If we do.
Speaker 12 (50:43):
Not, and I'm not outside of Spain, I'm not suggesting
that spanking is I don't know the answer, but I'm
saying that if you don't have discipline, you will never
be able to accomplish anything in this world, especially as
a black person or a minority, because you don't get
those same chances.
Speaker 9 (51:03):
You see what I'm saying so when you go out there.
Speaker 12 (51:06):
And mom and Daddy's not around and you act up, Oh,
they got something for you, exactly. And what they got
for you is a whole lot worse than what I'm
going to get at home or what you're gonna get.
Speaker 9 (51:19):
And that's what I told my kids.
Speaker 12 (51:21):
Whether it's I'm taking something away from you, you can't
play with this, you can't watch TV, you're grounded. Whatever
the discipline is, that's very minor to the way that
the world is going to treat you. Because my job
is not to be your friend. I'm not your friend,
you know what I'm saying. That's not my job. My
(51:42):
job is to be your parents, right, And you know what,
there's some things I don't really want you to tell me.
I don't want to hear that. And don't think you
can come to me and you can tell me everything.
You know what I'm saying, because that's the way it is.
But I'm saying that when you're talking about discipline, Miss Banks,
and I know you, and I know your kids, and
I know that respectful and I know that they are disciplined.
(52:02):
What that discipline is is, as you say, Doc, people
have their own way of discipline, and you know what,
a whooping is not always the answer to everything, because
I don't think that's really what any of us have suggested,
because there's other ways of discipline. But you know what,
I think some people don't discipline their kids at all.
Speaker 13 (52:20):
You know, it's called permissive parenting. Permissive parenting and authoritarian
parenting are totally different. We have permissive parenting. It's where
pearance is that the children just do without doing the discipline.
We have authoritarian parenting. It's also you better do as
I say it, not as I do. But yet and
(52:42):
still they're doing something totally totally different and not being
that mentor for the children.
Speaker 4 (52:47):
So now there's no respect.
Speaker 7 (52:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 15 (52:52):
Yeah, And I think that there's a different I think
that there's a different way of going about each each
thing your child, you know, encounters or as far as
your disciplinary measures, whatever you decide to do, whether it
be spanking, putting them in the corner, give him the
time out, so forth, and so on. I think, you know,
it just depends. You know, you know, I can remember,
(53:13):
you know, my personal experience with my son. You know,
he had this thing with his video games with his phone,
and he kept playing I told him, don't download no
games on his phone, just to give you a mite.
He kept doing it and kept doing it, and at
one point in time he turned back around when I
told him, I mean, he literally turned back around and
walked away. And as he walking away, he pushed the
download button and started downloading thesle. I walked up behind him,
(53:36):
and I actually saw this. I took the phone from me. Now,
I pursed the phone with my money and I destroyed
the phone on the spot. Well, I heard that that
was abuse. Yeah, I was told that there was abuse.
But here's the thing. When I set him down and
I talked to him, I explained to him, it's not
about the money factor. It's about you respecting me. That's
(53:57):
what it's about. And I think that sometime when we're
taking when stuff is taken away from Essa's parents, then
these kids are left to go out inside of society
and let allow somebody else to do the disciplinary factor
for them. And sometimes it's more graver than what you
gonna give them at home. You know, I just dealt
with the eleven year old girl ran up in my building
just last week and told me. She told me that
(54:20):
her father or her her mother boyfriend had whipped her.
Now I'm sitting there as a youth counselor, I'm sitting
there like, okay, what is my response? Okay, now she's
under age, so my response is okay to call authority.
But because I have been through a similar situation, I
can understand that these kids nowadays, they do anything. And
I'm gonna tell you. The first thing that came out
(54:41):
of her mouth is this, I don't want to go
to a foster home. This is what she said. These
kids are intelligent, they know what they're doing. But then
once the police came, I realized that they had done
with this young lady.
Speaker 7 (54:54):
They looked at them, they knew her.
Speaker 15 (54:57):
So they had dealt with this case several different times
and walk the right back down to the house. And
then a young lady come back and the next day
and say, I just want to thank you for allowing
me and talking to me.
Speaker 7 (55:08):
But they just want to be heard.
Speaker 15 (55:09):
But they will lie.
Speaker 4 (55:12):
Where do they get there?
Speaker 13 (55:13):
Where do they learn to lie?
Speaker 4 (55:17):
They have two parents, So they have two parents.
Speaker 13 (55:20):
Or whoever the caregiver is, or whomever is doing the
being the caregiver of the child. You have two individuals
maybe one like I hear every week, every day, I
hear so many things that have to do with lying. Okay,
but they children see things. Children very smart. One thing
(55:41):
I can.
Speaker 7 (55:41):
Say about children. They are very smart.
Speaker 13 (55:43):
And by the way, children are not bad. They are smart.
They're very intelligent. And when you start doing things you're
not supposed to be doing, they're learning it.
Speaker 15 (55:55):
And I'm gonna tell you, they're shaped by everything in
their school. And it starts off in a hole with
Santa Clau coming down to Chimbley and eastern and the
bunny having eastern head.
Speaker 7 (56:03):
That's where they learned a line from.
Speaker 13 (56:04):
Oh well, yeah, they guess and guess what they do.
And now they learned it and guess what they're doing.
They're learning it, they're using it. And when you say
children know how to manipulate, yeah, they learned it. But
yet we want to punish them for something that they
learn from us.
Speaker 9 (56:19):
I'm not a big fan, and I probably should say this.
I'm not a fan of CPS.
Speaker 13 (56:24):
Can I share something with you, mister Ali? I hear
you to a certain extent, but I'm sure something with you.
As many individuals I have in my classes a week
constitute child abuse I'm not saying that we do. But
there are individuals out there that came from dysfunctional families.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
I mean dysfunctional.
Speaker 13 (56:46):
I mean there's If you give me a perfect family,
I sure would like to know.
Speaker 4 (56:51):
Please send them to me.
Speaker 13 (56:52):
I would like to go in their house and sit
there for a long time.
Speaker 12 (56:55):
Well, a lot of the times where I see it
when I say that is that sometimes it's not even
related to that. But you know, you have children. A
child could just have an accident, could fall and hurt themselves,
and then now you and and it does happen, I
mean a child could I would not I would be
hesitant to take my child to the emergency room if
they fail accidentally insistently happened to them, because I mean
(57:18):
they come in like the squat team, and before before
you ever get an opportunity to you know, and sometimes
and what you go through and and sometimes you're dealing
with human beings who sometimes I believe have agendas and
and you know, so I think that you know that
creates and sometimes I mean when you can't you know,
(57:40):
parents a child the way that you want to, then
what happens is is that basically you're just creating a
lot of times children that that's going to find themselves
in juvenile hall and other places. Sometimes it's the lack
of discipline that actually ends up getting kids into that
as opposed to you know, people who are on drugs
and beating their kids.
Speaker 9 (58:00):
You know, is a different story.
Speaker 4 (58:02):
It shouldn't be parents anyway.
Speaker 16 (58:04):
Yeah, for thirty seconds, real quick, Look this don't lose
the focus. The root cause and the reason why we
punish our children is to set some type of boundaries
in place so they will follow inherent rules and laws
and structure, either of our own or society a component.
So lit's don't get caught up in the methodology whatever
(58:24):
it takes to get that child to follow those rules,
so they won't go out there and destroy society and
destroy everybody else because of lack of discipline and respect.
Speaker 7 (58:33):
That's what we got to enforce and get so deep into.
Speaker 16 (58:36):
How as opposed to the wise, the wise are the
important thing. That's why I said, I'm not going to
criticize anybody for what they do. If I see at
the end of the day that child is down in
their business, I'm going to salute whatever the heck they're doing, so.
Speaker 12 (58:48):
Goddamn so anyway, So, yeah, so I think that, Yeah,
I think it's a great discussion and it's one that
could be because it's a really complicated. It's almost really
like it's a lot more deeper than do I support
corporal punishment or do I not support corporal punishment because
there's a lot more involved in it, especially when we're
talking about hearing.
Speaker 13 (59:08):
It's very much.
Speaker 15 (59:09):
So yeah, So and if it don't work, if something
don't work, try something different, doing something.
Speaker 12 (59:16):
But I do want to share something with you for
I think we're gonna run out of time.
Speaker 9 (59:20):
We're gonna got thirty seconds left.
Speaker 4 (59:22):
But what they gonna do?
Speaker 9 (59:27):
They gonna do so any at any rate, Thank you
guys for tuning in.
Speaker 12 (59:30):
I wish we had some more time, but again, man,
I appreciate it. It was a great subject matter and we
do need to discuss this because parenting is important. But
I think everybody, thank our guests, Thank everybody for tuning
in and on behalf of the Justice Watch crew Rosa, Yes,
Michael blau Kark and doctor Kilbasher.
Speaker 9 (59:49):
Thank you for tuning in.
Speaker 12 (59:50):
We'll see you next week, same time, same place, same channel,
and until next week, stay blessed.
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Position have turned to Zulus Watch Cree rosa yez Michael.
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Park, Doctor Kilbasher.
Speaker 12 (04:53):
Today, like each week, we'll be discussing critical legal issues
affecting our community. Our topic today is corporate punishment. Is
spanking a viable option for parental discipline? And does it
prevent or perpetuate criminal behavior? Joining us in our discussion
today is Arlene Banks and Linda Harveing. Arleen Banks is
the founder of the Community Center for Healthy Minds CCHM.
(05:17):
As of twenty fourteen, the Community Center for Healthy Minds
was approved as a domestic violence provider with the Riverside
County Probation Department. She is a graduate from the University
of Phoenix, where she acquired a bachelor's degree in human
services and a master's degree in Marriage Family Therapy. Arling
Banks is also a certified counselor for domestic violence, parenting,
(05:39):
child abuse, and anger management and currently advocates for domestic
violence victims in the District Attorney Victim's Office. Linda Harvey
is a retired single mother and she just happens to
be my mother, So at any rate, so today we'll
be talking about this issue of corporal punishment, which remains
(06:02):
a controversial issue here in the United States. The American
Academy of Pediatrics and numerous other professional organizations have come
down firmly against the use of physical punishment by parents,
and the laws regarding corporate punishment.
Speaker 9 (06:17):
Vary from state to state.
Speaker 12 (06:18):
I believe there's about nineteen states that currently allow the
striking of a child in any school setting, and of
the thirty one states and the district of Columbia that
banned the practice in public schools, only New Jersey and
I will also include private schools, and many schools give
the misbehaving child a choice between suspension and being beaten
(06:43):
with a paddle. So again, I mean, this actually remains
an extremely controversial issue with regards to corporal punishment.
Speaker 9 (06:53):
I think that.
Speaker 12 (06:55):
For many of us, I think generationally, I know that
in my generation, corporal punishment was something that was that
was very very common, and you know, it was not
seen to seem to have been something that is not
that is negative or would have a negative impact on
a child if it's uh, you know, done in a
(07:17):
in a particular way that's not uh, you know, overly obsessive,
I guess you would say, And so I guess the
question is what is corporal punishment?
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Right?
Speaker 12 (07:30):
And then there's a difference between what is corporal punishment
and and when is it physical abuse? I know that
there are individuals who believe that corporal punishment UH is
basically just the use of physical pain UH in response
to a behavior that has been deemed inappropriate, and then
physical abuse is something that would go beyond UH what
(07:52):
would be the norm of physical pain UH in response
to this this behavior. There are those that believe either
basically corporal punishment in and of itself is actually.
Speaker 9 (08:05):
Physical abuse.
Speaker 12 (08:06):
So I guess I'm going to begin by speaking with
UH with miss Banks and get her to get her
initial response to her position. As far as corporal punishment
is concerned.
Speaker 13 (08:21):
There's back in. Well, let's talk about the definitions first.
The definition of corporal punishment is so to call psychological
and physical pain. Discipline is to teach by teaching children's
responsibility for their own actions.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
M H.
Speaker 13 (08:44):
So we take the word punishment back in the day
as punishing your children, which is totally different from discipline.
Speaker 12 (08:53):
Okay, and so when you say punishment like corporal punishment
and discipline. When you say punishment, you're thinking that any
kind of of action against the child or any kind
of are opposing.
Speaker 9 (09:07):
Any kind of of.
Speaker 12 (09:10):
I guess, for lack of a better term, any kind
of discipline on the child that would cause any type
of pain would actually be punishment. However, something other than
causing physical or mental harm on the child would be
called discipline, right, Okay, I'm sorry, okay.
Speaker 13 (09:26):
Discipline is to teach by suing, teaching the children responsibility,
and the other one is psychological and psychological and causing
pain is punishment is punishment.
Speaker 12 (09:42):
So in essence, basically corporal punishment basically is not discipline.
Speaker 9 (09:47):
It is actually more or less of some sort of
mission or physical punishment.
Speaker 12 (09:52):
But discipline is actually considered to be something completely different.
In other words, trying to to uh impose was some
sort of action on a child other than causing mental
or physical harm in order to correct action or to
impose some sort of lesson. I guess you could say, yes, okay, yes,
(10:15):
all right, And what about you.
Speaker 9 (10:18):
Miss Harvey as far as as far as.
Speaker 12 (10:22):
The issue of the difference between corporal punishment and physical abuse.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Well, corporal punishment and physical abuse is the way you
put it like that, it's almost the same. Corporate punishment
is a major thing, which I wouldn't consider corporal punishment.
I might be mistaken, but I wouldn't consider corporal punishment
as of spanking as a corporal punishment. So from your now,
(10:55):
physical abuse is like if you take your child and
you spanking so hard that there's webs all over me.
Excuse the language, but it's a little behind is red
and and all that needs bleeding. Now, that's that's physical abuse,
(11:17):
and that's not a discipline. Spanking is to me is different.
I mean, I spanked y'all, wouldn't spank you so hard
that you would need to go to the doctor that
you couldn't sit down? And and that's the difference as
(11:37):
far as I'm concerned. So I don't see anything wrong
with spanking.
Speaker 12 (11:42):
So for you that what you're thinking is that basically
spanking is within the realm of discipline, and the other
part anything beyond spanking. And when you say spanking, spanking
in a manner in which you said that doesn't cause
physical I mean visual physical.
Speaker 7 (12:00):
Uh uh abuse.
Speaker 12 (12:04):
Or preventing someone from setting down. From your perspective, that's
that's within the realm of discipline. But if beyond that
would be not necessary.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
And like I said, you know, like you might hurt
just a little bit, but you know, you wouldn't want
to spank your child so hard and so much that
that child cannot set down, you know, So I guess
we'll go here. Do you want them to hurt? That's
(12:38):
been fearing children, So what's that? Do you want them
to hurt? Well, they can hurt just a little bit,
but not so much that you know. I know, my
mother spiked me, and you know, I felt it for
a little while and then it went away, and I
have and I don't think it affected me mentally. I
(13:03):
don't think it especially mentally. I mean, it didn't make
me want to every time I see somebody reading this
arcle to go out and fight. My mother spanked me.
And my mother now once I was grown, we were
the best of friends. My mother been dead over twenty
something years and I still miss my mother some sometime
(13:23):
at night. I even still cry cause I can't talk
to her. I mean, she didn't hurt me so bad
that that I going. The next few days I sat
down and bet and jump up cause m who that's
where Mama spank me. Like I said, it hurt a
few a little while, and that was it. And it
also taught me. That taught me that if you do
(13:47):
something wrong, there's a consequence. Consequences too when you do
something wrong. I mean, ever since I can remember going
in the store, I wouldn't dare pick up something or
try to rob somebody because I know that if I
do this and it's wrong, that I won't be punished
(14:10):
for it, one way or the other. The basic punishment
is generally is jail. Sometimes it's death, especially when you
see these kids that do things and they try to
run away and and my idea is that you know,
it teaches kids that if you do something wrong, there
(14:31):
is you have to pay for it. There's consequences, but
you don't have to dodge that child, dog that child
out and and do certain things, you know, because great
physical you know, punishment like that, but it's also but
(14:51):
it does teach the child that if they do something wrong,
there's consequences.
Speaker 12 (14:58):
Well, I think that, I guess going on the other
side those I guess the some of the organizations, especially
some of the psychologists and other individuals and other child
specialists are suggesting that it has the opposite effect. According
to people like Stacy Patent and some of these other
(15:21):
individuals have actually written and stated that the majority of
the individuals who are incarcerated actually had been.
Speaker 9 (15:34):
Subjected to some sort of you know, corporal punishment.
Speaker 12 (15:37):
Now, I don't really know when when they say corporal
punishment to what degree they're speaking of if they're talking
about a spanking, or how far it goes. But at
least that's the announcis of the of the of the
of the of those professionals that correct.
Speaker 13 (15:53):
Yes, So you have to also remember, see the definitions
are totally wrong. Discipline is to teach by assuming responsibility.
Punishment is to call psychological and physical pain. As far
as corporal punishment, it's the same thing as punishment. See
(16:14):
when we grew up, Yes, back in the day, there
was a weapon's spankings, probably severe, some severe than others. Uh,
But it does it does harm a child psychologically as
they grow up. And the reason why I say that
is because of all the experiences that I've had of
(16:35):
two hundred and sixty three p individuals a week has
called them traumatic experiences growing up because they not only
learned it, but they also became violent themselves. And so
what they do is the generation from generation you spank
your children, this generation.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
They're used to it. Now we've j Now these.
Speaker 13 (16:53):
Shouldn't have just learned what you have just gotten. And
that pattern keeps going. And now today it's totally different.
See a little bit back in the day, it was
okay to whip your to spend your children. Today is
totally different. Totally different things are happening with individuals psychologically, mentally,
mental abuse, physical abuse, uh, mental illness, and uh, it's
(17:17):
happening out here s so much and it's so dominant
in our society as far as domestic violence, child abuse.
And I mean, all you have to do right about
now is to take your your your two fingers and
pull a child by his ear.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
You have a child abuse case.
Speaker 7 (17:34):
Mm.
Speaker 13 (17:35):
Because see, there's another way of being able to communicate
with your children other than than to make them fearful
of you, Because that's exactly what's gonna happen. They gonna
become fearful, They're not even gonna wanna come talk to you.
We have to we have to be able to communicate
and allow our children to be able to communicate with us.
You have to remember children have feelings that they're and
(17:58):
they have thoughts, and their opinion is a valot and
they are to be respected. So if they don't get that,
you're going to have some kind of resentment. Not only
if you're going to have a resentment, you're going to
have a rebellious child.
Speaker 9 (18:13):
Well, Rosa, you're the youngest person yes, so would you
be in the youngest person at the table.
Speaker 12 (18:23):
I want you to give me your opinion with regards
to the issue of a corporal punishment.
Speaker 14 (18:30):
Well, I feel like growing up I was. I grew
up in a spinking culture and that really enabled me
to respect my mom and my dad and have that respect.
And it wasn't much of fear. It was just a
respective disappointment that I gained through the spanking when I
was younger. But then again that's just my case. But
I do see that now in our culture new parents
(18:51):
and growing up, a lot of them do not spank
their children, and a lot of them do not have
that discipline because of what they've learned or what they've
been psychologically kind of grown up with to not spank
their kids because they have that trauma in a way.
But for me, as for me, I feel like me
it helped me, Like my parents disciplined me in a
(19:13):
way where it was like spanking and it was into
the max it would hurt, but it did teach me
kind of to learn to not misbehave because I knew
I was going to get that spanking or sometimes that
pull in the ear which was weird, or those eyes
the look, yeah, the look. But I feel like in
a way it did kind of create a certain specific
(19:34):
disconnect within my parents when it came to talking about feelings. Yes,
because I was so fearful of communicating with my parents
about my feelings because I didn't want a disappointment. So
I feel like that's where that meany kind of discinet
came forward. But as far as me and the future
having children and spanking them and all of that, I
feel like I would want to incorporate a little bit
(19:55):
of it, but at the same time, I would try
to stay a little bit away from it. Fifty to
fifty on this issue, but seeing my culture and how
kids are growing up nowadays, two kind of growing up
without that guidance from their parents, and really you have
kids calling the police on their parents you know, you
have kids who are brave enough to go out there
(20:16):
and talk back to their parents, which is something that
I couldn't do. I couldn't even picture that because I
knew I was going to get that look or that speinking.
So that's where I see the disconnect of maybe it's
kind of wrong in a way sometimes to stir away
from it fully because I feel like it is in
a way necessary to create that.
Speaker 12 (20:33):
I think that basically being a grandparent, and basically you know,
obviously you know, I was, you know, there was corporal
punishment growing up for me, but it was not something
that I got very often.
Speaker 9 (20:48):
I mean, I think that probably I could count.
Speaker 12 (20:50):
On one hand how many times it happened. And I
think that once you know, once you get it, then
obviously all you have to.
Speaker 9 (21:00):
Do is showed me the belt. And I'm you know
what I'm saying, I didn't, you know, I was kind
of like I didn't do it anymore.
Speaker 12 (21:07):
And you know, one of the interesting things is that,
you know, I got a whooping from my spanking from
my my mother and my grandmother, but the person that
I feared the most was probably my grandfather. But the
irony is is he never whoops me, but I knew
that he could, right, and it kind of like I
figured that if he gave me one, it would really hurt, right,
(21:28):
So you know, it's kind of one of those things.
But then now when you see younger people doing it,
it's not really at least in my opinion, I think
that it's more than just whooping, you know what I'm saying,
Because I mean nowadays, when you know, you see someone
getting a spanking and then they hugged the child, that
(21:51):
never happened to me.
Speaker 9 (21:52):
And so in other words, what I'm saying is is
that then what.
Speaker 12 (21:55):
Happens is I believe that people believe that if I
act up, I'll get I'll get love, you.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Know what I'm saying.
Speaker 12 (22:04):
And so sometimes people don't know how to spank people,
you know what I mean, because I can't, you know,
like for example, like when I spank my children, they
couldn't run to their their mother or grandmother because you
just got in trouble. So you know, it's a rap, right.
But now younger people, you know, I think that they
do the opposite thing. It's like if one person believes
(22:26):
in that in that type of punishment and the other
person don't believe in that type of punishment. It kind
of sends mixed messages to a young child. That says,
it almost gives a complete opposite message if it's not
imposed properly.
Speaker 9 (22:39):
Right.
Speaker 12 (22:39):
So, if it's like if I'm going to get a
hug when I get a spanking, you know, I think
it might give it I'll give off the wrong things.
I think it's more to it than just the spanking itself, right,
And so I think that which complicates the whole subject
matter because now you know, like you're saying, miss thanks
that obviously there are situations where pop people who do
(23:00):
get corporate subject to the corporate punishment where it could
have a psychological a negative psychological effect if it's if
it's given, you know, obviously it's clear that I think
everybody would have would agree that if you you whip
a child too hard, that that's abuse.
Speaker 9 (23:16):
I don't think anybody disagrees with that. Number one, But.
Speaker 12 (23:19):
Number two, I think it also, uh makes it more
complicated because there's a lot if you know, we we
if you're just whooping the child and that's all you're
doing and there's nothing else that goes along with it,
then I think that basically that's also a negative thing,
is so I think it creates some more you know,
(23:39):
you kids can't whoop a child for everything that they do,
you know what I mean, there has to be a.
Speaker 9 (23:43):
Lesson behind it.
Speaker 12 (23:44):
And sometimes you know, spanking the child has you know,
some people replace spanking a child with they think that
that parenting begins with spanking, it ends with spanking, and
that's all.
Speaker 9 (23:56):
Then that's also a negative thing. So it's a.
Speaker 12 (24:00):
It's a little bit you know, complicated, and I think
how it happen generally, the way you were disciplined and
the effect that it had on you will have an
impact on how you feel about corporal punishment. Right if
you got slapped on the hand every now and then,
and you got a little spanking on the bottom every
now and then, I'm sure you will have a different
(24:20):
attitude than those who were like man, you know, like
you know, getting beat with you know objects.
Speaker 9 (24:28):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 12 (24:29):
Yeah, And when I'm talking about objects, is anything that
they can get their hands on.
Speaker 13 (24:33):
Yeah, that used to be back in the day, anything
you get your hands on. But today you're going to
have a child of these skates and you know, today
it's easier to be able to allow your children to
communicate with you firstus having to get us spanking, because.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
We all make mistakes. Children make mistakes too, but yet we.
Speaker 13 (24:49):
Want to punish them for making a mistake when they
learned it from us. That's the part that I have
an issue with. And then you know, and then they
become rebellious. Well who are you in the back that
might be subconsciously.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Unaware of who are you? Yeah, well, I agree with
you on that point. You know, if the if the
adult's doing bad in the house and different things, yep,
I would say they you know, they they shouldn't be
trying to punish their kids. But I would like to say,
is that Okay, I did speak you. Did you ever
(25:23):
feel like you couldn't communicate with me?
Speaker 7 (25:26):
No?
Speaker 4 (25:26):
No, I think, But I always felt that I could
talk to my mother. And another thing is now I've
tried some of the know, the standing in the corner stuff,
because before we left Tennessee, I used to keep children,
and but I did at the time. I did tell
(25:48):
the parents, I said, now I would keep your child.
I said, if I expect your child to mind me
and do what I say. If your child cannot mind me,
I said, I will them. I would not beat them,
but I will spank them. And so if you have
a problem with that, I cannot keep your child. And
(26:08):
there's only one person I know that didn't let me
keep their child. Everybody else kept their child. And the children,
you know, they seemed to love me. Every time I
go home, they won't everybody wanna see me? Take me
out to eat. Here's Miss Linda's back. Are you back
to stay? Miss Linda? That before they got grown and you.
(26:28):
I tried the c you know, standing in the corner,
and I was sitting there one day. One of the
first one that got in trouble was one of my granddaughters.
When he's done, I said, go stand in the corner.
Then here come this other little girl. You standing in
that corner, Then here come this little boy. And what
I found out they were doing. They were standing in
(26:49):
the corner and they were making little signs with each
other and laughing it and going up and and they
loved standing in the corner. That wasn't a punishment for them.
That was like a game. So I said, oh, you
can't stand at the card hu. But you know, like
if I spank somebody. I I let them know why
(27:12):
they're getting or speaking. I just don't spank 'em and
say go set down. I go there. I said, now
you got this little spanking you did X, Y and Z.
Do you understand? And they will let me know yes,
ma'am A no, And I would you know, go over
(27:34):
with her, you know and stuff. But like I say, uh, like,
now okay, they've taken chastisement out of school. The teachers
can't say nothing to the kids. Basically almost the parents
can barely say something to the kids, you know, depending
on or do anything to kids. And since that's happening,
(27:58):
you see all these shootings. I mean before I guess
nineteen eighty something, you didn't see kids going to school
shooting up kids because somebody called them a a dope
or or funny you look funny. You didn't see that stuff.
And I in need, like no, like going in the stores.
(28:19):
It was this little boy. He was showing that, falling
out in the floor, throwing stuff off the shields and
going up and his mother said, well, I guess she
finally got tired. She said, if you don't stop, I
won't spank you. And he looked at it. He said,
and put his hands on his little hips.
Speaker 7 (28:36):
He was a s.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
A small child. I don't think you know who you
talking to. Mm. You know, if I said that to
my mama, like I said, she just paying that home.
And I think if I said that to her, she
right woulda knocked me out. But you know, like you
talking about spanking somebody with anything you can get your
hands on. You hear candians say that out time. Man,
(29:02):
I don't understand it because I don't remember my mama
taking which color were in plugs, those cars, if sentier
cards and whipping me with it, or taking anything I
taking her big shoe up and whipping me with it,
or taking her hand. And I don't I don't remember
my mother. My mother didn't do that. I think maybe
(29:25):
they did it this way. I don't know.
Speaker 9 (29:27):
They probably did it all over the place.
Speaker 12 (29:28):
It's just basically different individuals have probably different you know, experiences.
Speaker 15 (29:34):
With the Yeah, And I think it's just a culture shift,
you know, because I can remember when I was coming up.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
You know, the neighbors were allowed to do it.
Speaker 15 (29:42):
My mother gave a neighbor if you see my child
doing something wrong, you know, give that spankash even when
I went to school, if I did something wrong, they
sent me to the principle. I can remember getting that paddle,
and believe me, I thought twice about it. I wouldn't
say that it now that I look back on it,
you know, I thought twice about doing anything, even when
my grandmother whooped me. My mother whopped me, you know,
(30:04):
I thought about that. You know, I thought about doing
something wrong, you know. And I wouldn't say it allowed
this disconnect between me and me and me and my parents.
Speaker 7 (30:14):
You know.
Speaker 15 (30:15):
I think what it did was it put me in
a place. Now that didn't mean that I didn't go
go off and start doing things on my own, but
it wasn't. I can't equate it to the whoopings. I
can't say I did this or I acted out this
way because the whoopings. But I firmly believe that there
has to be some form of consequences. And now that
I have my own children, you know, and trying to
(30:37):
discipline them, you know, when I've tried almost everything in
the book, and sometimes I let them choose what they
want to do, I say, hey, you know, because at
some point in time, I say, look, this is what
you did. Now you know you did this wrong. What
do you think your punishment should be? And I allowed
them to give me some feedback. They might say, well
(30:58):
that I'm gonna go out here, I'm gonna clean up,
I'm gonna do this, or Dad, I want to go
in the corner.
Speaker 7 (31:02):
I'll do this at the corner.
Speaker 15 (31:04):
But sometimes when you take the toys and you give
them that, and you take the toys and put them
in the corner, they know that in ten minutes they'll
be out the corner, so they can repeat this behavior again.
But sometimes I know that, look, if I give them
that little pack, they don't think about it, you know.
So I think that that communication between that parent and
(31:25):
that child should always be open where you discuss with
them like this is what you did, you knew what
was wrong, and then even afterwards you embrace them and
you talk to them, I love you and this and that.
It's just that I think that over a period of
time there's culture shift. You have people that has been
abused in their lives and they write these books and
they totally against this because they suffer disabuse. You got
(31:47):
people that ain't never got a whooping a day in
their life, and they feel that they can write this
long biography or long book on this subject matter and
they never had a spanking in their life. But they
only going on statistics that come from a totally different
arena where you grew up in, you know. So I
think that it has this, you know, it has this,
you know, fifty to fifty you know, had like Rosa says,
(32:08):
you know, sometimes it have those effects on children and
sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 12 (32:12):
So yeah, So anyway, so I think that we've got
a call her. But at any rate, now with regards
to the issue of the of now, with regards to
the issue of the corporal punishment, I think that goes
(32:34):
beyond the what we consider to be because it's it's
really as you're looking at it and you're seeing that,
you're seeing all these states that are outlawing the whole
issue of corporal punishment.
Speaker 9 (32:48):
And I think we got.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
A call her.
Speaker 10 (32:56):
That I'm just because I understand child abuse. I was
a foster plants, but you know they took out the discipline.
You cannot discipline your kid at all. I mean, I'm
all false the kids on anything. The kids, the kids
parents kid was try to discipline the kids from stealing,
(33:18):
and they took them away from him because they grabbed
him back warm and curse them didn't put their hands
on him. But when you go out and uh, when
that kid goes out in the street, uh, the tops
don't look at him like either a kid or they
don't worry about the corporal punks. That kid does something,
you don't even have them a gun or knight the
(33:41):
blow his brains out. The kid does something, the parents
are libel. I'm not saying you suposed to just beat
the crab. I remember when my father they would be
charging my father with a saw where the tent to
kill the way I used to get it when I
was young. But I would I would like say I
would bring home these or f that was unacceptable. When
(34:04):
he finished with me, the ntric book card was aid
and beings I'm serious. You would you you would think
I heard belife that he would think about stuff. If
you didn't have no bad attitude for his father or
his mother or his grandmother because they disciplined, we would
turn out. It would be a lot more in the
(34:25):
world if they would not say him, but you know,
you shouldn't whip your kids, put whips all over them
and all that but pop your kid on the foot
for doing something wrong and let them know this repercussion,
the consequences for your actions. They didn't took that away
(34:45):
from so we have to like, we have to like
accept it. They call the cops on you, I mean
the teachers and that the systemat tell of kids and
if your parents do anything to you, call let us know.
And they call and take a good kid away from
(35:06):
a good home. A lot of these foss agency just
got these kids this big money. Uh just like hergy.
They make it over I think two three million dollars
a month just placing kids. And it's almost like just
like a temp agency. They get the kids, take them
(35:28):
out of a good home, put them in a bad home.
The people ain't worrying about nothing but a paycheck. They
don't care, you know. I mean, you got some that
care about the kids, but the majority of them looking
at a paycheck. So you really, you honestly gave that
kid some serious or mental issues just by taking them
(35:49):
away from a good room waiting them. And you know,
I just I've seen both ends of it, you know,
I just uh, I would think that it's a better way.
You know, they should let parents discipline the kids. I mean,
in school, I would get it from my teacher. Back
(36:11):
to that, Like, but I said, your neighbors saw you
doing something, clamming in somebody's window, they would tag you behind.
Now your neighbors. Everybody's scared of the kids. They're scared.
The neighbor is the teachers, they're scared of the kids,
and the kids running around ain't scared of nobody. So
(36:34):
you know, I know it's a double ed sword, but
you know it's something to think about anyway. Yeah, yeah,
but anyway I can teach you guys, accept from my call.
Speaker 9 (36:50):
Okay, well, thank you for calling. I appreciate that.
Speaker 10 (36:52):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 9 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (36:54):
So, I know that.
Speaker 12 (36:54):
Basically one of the things that that when we talk
about and there's there's a significant studies and writings and
literature out there when it comes to the African American
communities that would suggest that the the the act of
discipline children by whipping them actually came from slavery before
(37:19):
and that basically you've heard that, haven't you done. Yeah,
I mean, now I know that basically, and the only
continent it would be true if you didn't think on
the continent that never happened I think that obviously on
the continent that it does. But there are those who
believe that basically we incorporated that in punishing our kids
because it was learned behavior from the slave master.
Speaker 9 (37:43):
That's that was the that's.
Speaker 12 (37:44):
The that's not an anomaly. That is a very common
among black psychologists who are against corporal punishment. That tends
to be where they believe that that is kind of
like the catalyst of it. So what do you think
about that?
Speaker 7 (38:01):
Dog, Well, just.
Speaker 16 (38:05):
Let me make a few other quick points. I'll addressed
that good conversation. I think three points. Fundamentally, we have
to have balance, and you know, we go to these
extremes nonspanking, spanking, etc.
Speaker 7 (38:19):
We need balance. When you stop and.
Speaker 16 (38:21):
Think about the nature of the child, the young adult
wants boundary set. So by nature, the young child is
going to challenge authority and what we do in the
moment is going to define what that child does from
that point on. So we have to look at is
it youthful defiance or is it just arbitrary neglance on
the child's part that's going to determine our action at
(38:42):
the end of the day. Secondly, when we look at
the concept of violence. Individuals are driven by pain and pleasure.
It's been psychologically proven for decades across the board those
two things drive, and so we have to look at
certain communities and its perception. In Black communities, I think
(39:04):
the physical discipline is more inherent because.
Speaker 7 (39:08):
Of the circumstances.
Speaker 16 (39:09):
You lose your life a lot easier in a black
community or a community of color if you don't immediately
respond and have certain boundaries in place, whether that be
on the street, whether that be with the police engagements, etc.
Speaker 7 (39:21):
So a lot of the parents.
Speaker 16 (39:22):
Will use that initial physical pain to get that instant
response and let that child know you cannot cross these lines. Now,
a balance parent would come back and say, I'm going
to use other forms of discipline to get my child
in place. When we stop and think about discipline, let's
be clear, discipline and self control. You're teaching that child
(39:43):
to control himself for herself. The other thing is I
remember in my day with my father. You know, if
I hadn't got the physical discipline, what was more impactful.
Speaker 7 (39:57):
For me was a psychological discipline.
Speaker 16 (39:59):
So when my father discipline, which was very rare, if
that physical discipline did not proceed, the psychological discipline, I
would have been a confused individual because I wouldn't have
understood why psychologically I was being put in this nexus.
Whereas the physical discipline allowed me to understand the psychological discipline,
(40:20):
and so I was able to embrace it and get
through it much better. True to answer your question when
you talk about what we picked up in.
Speaker 7 (40:27):
Slavery, but let's be real clear.
Speaker 16 (40:29):
In the African culture, we had five components of manhood
and womanhood development, and there was paying throughout that whole
process through the rights of passage. When a young boy
would have to step into that manhood, he was put
into venues where physical pain was dominant, even though it
didn't come from the actual elders. It came from the experience.
(40:50):
He had to go out and fight the lion, he
had to go out and fight the warrior tribe. So
we had that end, but it was the understanding of
the necessity.
Speaker 7 (41:01):
Of why that was important.
Speaker 16 (41:03):
And I think what we see today is we lack
that and somebody said it so well, we lack that
understanding of what that.
Speaker 7 (41:10):
Tool is used for.
Speaker 16 (41:12):
I think it's going to take a holistic approach when
we discipline the child to have a thorough understanding of
what is happening in the process. But I'll say this,
I wouldn't blame anybody who did not or who did
use discipline because their personal circumstances has to dictate what's
going on. And at the end of the day, let
me tell you something, nobody's going to tell me what
(41:32):
to do with my children. To get my children to
the point of where they need to be, You're going
to look up and at the end of the day,
they're going to be looking at a life sentence or
something else because you did not put the boundaries on board.
So I had to do my all my children or grown,
but I had to do whatever I had to do
to make sure that those boundaries were clear because I
knew what my children were going to have to face
(41:52):
had they come up and at the end of the
day if they didn't, or if they got caught up
in a situation where either they lost their lives or
got in prison or got physically harmed. And I didn't
set those boundaries, that was on me. And I clearly
understood that, my wife clearly understood that. So I want
to just be clear. Going back, I think Rosa said
it well. I think, but Law said it so well
and I think it was echoed. I think you have
(42:13):
to have some semblance of balance, and I think that's
in everything we do in our society.
Speaker 7 (42:18):
We need that balance.
Speaker 13 (42:21):
And that balance is communication as well, because if you
don't allow your children to be able to communicate with you,
you're gonna have a power struggle because they're going to
go right out there to society and they're gonna start
listening to somebody out there on the streets because we're
not paying attention.
Speaker 16 (42:39):
See, I would agree with you, But in adding to that,
I would say this, your children are gonna never communicate
with you if they don't respect you. Yes, and if
we don't put those defining mechanisms in place to dictate
what the child can't expect from us or what the
child should not expect from us, the child should be
crystal clear, as elders, as parents, as those that are
(43:02):
leading the child in the process, what we expect from
that child. How can you condemn a child when that
child does not know the boundaries of where they can
and cannot go. So whatever it takes to establish that
my children don't have a problem whatsoever in respecting and
communicating committed when me, they come to me first, but
(43:22):
they know I'll give them a certain look and they
know at the end of the day, I've got to
back up.
Speaker 7 (43:27):
Okay, So those kinds of things have to be built.
I agree with you.
Speaker 16 (43:29):
Communication is important, but most importantly, inclusion and respect that
the child needs to be given should lead the process.
Speaker 13 (43:38):
Okay, so respect, let's talk about that word respect.
Speaker 7 (43:43):
We have a lot of.
Speaker 13 (43:43):
People at our general and the way things are today, respect,
the way children are being brought up today, the way
we're being brought up, alcohol, drugs, technology, all of this,
and then we have parents because none of us come
to up parentee manual not none of us come in
a parenting MANUALM. So if we didn't come with a
(44:05):
parenting manual, our parents didn't come with one. Their parents
didn't come with one. So to say this is that
when children are in substance abuse, alcohol workaholics are left behind.
They have that no one to be able to communicate with.
You can't talk to an addict. So you got both
parents off your own drugs and alcohol. Now they're being
(44:29):
raised by themselves and they're thrown out there because if
they even get with someone to say, oh I care
about you, it's over.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
It's over.
Speaker 13 (44:38):
And now you might be in the hands of somebody
that has what the best of violence issue, physical physical abuse,
someone that has been traumatized themselves. Because now the prayers
pray on the vulnerable, and when the prayers pray on
the vulnerable.
Speaker 7 (44:55):
Well, that's why you have to go tool so quickly.
I don't want to, but again, that's why you have
to go to the root cause. And addic.
Speaker 16 (45:04):
Somebody out there slaying drugs, somebody's out there doing violence extremely,
somebody's representing in the set and the gang set. Those
are symptoms of root causes that have not been dealt with,
and far too often in our communities, we don't deal
with the root cause because it's a lot easier to
deal with the symptom. It takes some discipline, as we
talked about, to deal with that root cause. So when
(45:25):
we look at that, if you come in and telling
me to stop this.
Speaker 7 (45:28):
Don't do that, etc.
Speaker 16 (45:29):
But don't get to the real psychological trauma that caused
me to do it in the first place.
Speaker 7 (45:34):
I'm gonna look at you like you're crazy and tell
you to get up out of my face.
Speaker 16 (45:37):
That's where and respect comes when I can see that
you can meet my needs? Are you even under hav
an understanding of them? I mean, far too often we
step into these situations and we don't understand the person's normality,
and they look at how the heck you gonna help
me when you don't even know what I've been through?
Real quickly, when it came through the spanking component, I'll
(45:58):
tell you, the spanking component from me was probably one
of the best things that I got because it gave
me the ability to have a an equilibrium as it
related to my own children. I probably would have been
far more abusive to my children had I not gotten
this thanking because I understood the degree of pain, I
understood how I felt, and I understood what I.
Speaker 7 (46:18):
Didn't want them to fill in the process.
Speaker 16 (46:20):
So it gave me a reference points and a gauge
to really say, Okay, how can I use this this
component to deal with my actual children? But that was
only me, and that's why I said, and I qualified
I would not go in any individ in situation and
tell somebody what they should or should not do. They
have to use their own common sense, their own upbringing,
and their own reference points to decide what's best for them,
(46:42):
and then if it's against a societal norm, they've got
to ask themselves. Am I willing to face the consequence.
So you know, that's a personal situation, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 12 (46:52):
I was just gonna say real quick, I mean, as
far as the issue of respect, I think that's really
one of the things that I see most and I'm
that bothers me obviously with children is that I'm not really.
Speaker 9 (47:11):
I'm bothered by bad kids, by bad kids.
Speaker 12 (47:15):
And when I say that, when I say bothered by
bad kids, this is what I'm talking about. If I
go to a movie theater, or if I go to
a store, or if I go to a certain place
and I see a child that's unruly and talking back
to their parents, it bothers me because I'm not used
(47:39):
to that.
Speaker 9 (47:40):
I did not allow my children to do it, and
I could not do that.
Speaker 12 (47:47):
And you know, the thing about it is is that
I cannot really see anything productive coming out of a
child that basically is an unruly child, right, and they
learned it early on, right, And so the problem, of course,
(48:07):
when it comes to dealing with and people say, well,
there's not really bad children.
Speaker 9 (48:12):
But the reality of.
Speaker 12 (48:13):
It is is that if you cannot take your child
out to a place and allow that, and that child
disrespects you and will not do what you're telling them
to do, that's a problem, man, that is a big problem.
Speaker 9 (48:28):
I don't understand. And like I said, I'm not a specialist.
I'm just a parent.
Speaker 12 (48:34):
And the reason why the problem is because I don't
understand that.
Speaker 9 (48:37):
I don't understand how.
Speaker 12 (48:40):
You know, I never got in my mother's face, I
never cussed my mother. I could not do any of
those things right because I always knew that it was wrong.
I didn't run around stores. I didn't act up in restaurants.
I didn't act up in public places. My children didn't
(49:04):
run around stores. They didn't act up in public places.
If I said you need to set down, you need
to set down, and that was kind of it. And
and basically what happens is that, you know, the reality
of it is is that I went out in the world. See,
I wasn't under you know, the the the thing about
(49:24):
it is being raised as a by a single mother,
is that when I went out into the world, I
knew I had a lot of discipline right my career
path was was paramilitary things, going into the Marine Corps,
you know, being a police officer. I was disciplined playing sports,
(49:44):
playing football. I was an extremely disciplined person. I don't
know why, but I'm assuming it's because I was raised
in a in a culture and in a situation where you.
Speaker 9 (49:59):
You had discipline.
Speaker 12 (50:00):
There's a certain way you carried yourself as a man, right,
And nowadays we're very lacking on people carrying themselves not
necessarily disrespecting the parents or other people, but also having
respect for yourself.
Speaker 7 (50:21):
Right.
Speaker 9 (50:21):
You don't do that that.
Speaker 12 (50:23):
You don't walk around looking this way, you don't dress
this way, you don't do these things. And until the
one important thing we talked about this last week, Miss
Banks and Miss Harvey, the main thing that we have
in our community that we're lacking is discipline.
Speaker 9 (50:42):
If we do.
Speaker 12 (50:43):
Not, and I'm not outside of Spain, I'm not suggesting
that spanking is I don't know the answer, but I'm
saying that if you don't have discipline, you will never
be able to accomplish anything in this world, especially as
a black person or a minority, because you don't get
those same chances.
Speaker 9 (51:03):
You see what I'm saying so when you go out there.
Speaker 12 (51:06):
And mom and Daddy's not around and you act up, Oh,
they got something for you, exactly. And what they got
for you is a whole lot worse than what I'm
going to get at home or what you're gonna get.
Speaker 9 (51:19):
And that's what I told my kids.
Speaker 12 (51:21):
Whether it's I'm taking something away from you, you can't
play with this, you can't watch TV, you're grounded. Whatever
the discipline is, that's very minor to the way that
the world is going to treat you. Because my job
is not to be your friend. I'm not your friend,
you know what I'm saying. That's not my job. My
(51:42):
job is to be your parents, right, And you know what,
there's some things I don't really want you to tell me.
I don't want to hear that. And don't think you
can come to me and you can tell me everything.
You know what I'm saying, because that's the way it is.
But I'm saying that when you're talking about discipline, Miss Banks,
and I know you, and I know your kids, and
I know that respectful and I know that they are disciplined.
(52:02):
What that discipline is is, as you say, Doc, people
have their own way of discipline, and you know what,
a whooping is not always the answer to everything, because
I don't think that's really what any of us have suggested,
because there's other ways of discipline. But you know what,
I think some people don't discipline their kids at all.
Speaker 13 (52:20):
You know, it's called permissive parenting. Permissive parenting and authoritarian
parenting are totally different. We have permissive parenting. It's where
pearance is that the children just do without doing the discipline.
We have authoritarian parenting. It's also you better do as
I say it, not as I do. But yet and
(52:42):
still they're doing something totally totally different and not being
that mentor for the children.
Speaker 4 (52:47):
So now there's no respect.
Speaker 7 (52:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 15 (52:52):
Yeah, And I think that there's a different I think
that there's a different way of going about each each
thing your child, you know, encounters or as far as
your disciplinary measures, whatever you decide to do, whether it
be spanking, putting them in the corner, give him the
time out, so forth, and so on. I think, you know,
it just depends. You know, you know, I can remember,
(53:13):
you know, my personal experience with my son. You know,
he had this thing with his video games with his phone,
and he kept playing I told him, don't download no
games on his phone, just to give you a mite.
He kept doing it and kept doing it, and at
one point in time he turned back around when I
told him, I mean, he literally turned back around and
walked away. And as he walking away, he pushed the
download button and started downloading thesle. I walked up behind him,
(53:36):
and I actually saw this. I took the phone from me. Now,
I pursed the phone with my money and I destroyed
the phone on the spot. Well, I heard that that
was abuse. Yeah, I was told that there was abuse.
But here's the thing. When I set him down and
I talked to him, I explained to him, it's not
about the money factor. It's about you respecting me. That's
(53:57):
what it's about. And I think that sometime when we're
taking when stuff is taken away from Essa's parents, then
these kids are left to go out inside of society
and let allow somebody else to do the disciplinary factor
for them. And sometimes it's more graver than what you
gonna give them at home. You know, I just dealt
with the eleven year old girl ran up in my building
just last week and told me. She told me that
(54:20):
her father or her her mother boyfriend had whipped her.
Now I'm sitting there as a youth counselor, I'm sitting
there like, okay, what is my response? Okay, now she's
under age, so my response is okay to call authority.
But because I have been through a similar situation, I
can understand that these kids nowadays, they do anything. And
I'm gonna tell you. The first thing that came out
(54:41):
of her mouth is this, I don't want to go
to a foster home. This is what she said. These
kids are intelligent, they know what they're doing. But then
once the police came, I realized that they had done
with this young lady.
Speaker 7 (54:54):
They looked at them, they knew her.
Speaker 15 (54:57):
So they had dealt with this case several different times
and walk the right back down to the house. And
then a young lady come back and the next day
and say, I just want to thank you for allowing
me and talking to me.
Speaker 7 (55:08):
But they just want to be heard.
Speaker 15 (55:09):
But they will lie.
Speaker 4 (55:12):
Where do they get there?
Speaker 13 (55:13):
Where do they learn to lie?
Speaker 4 (55:17):
They have two parents, So they have two parents.
Speaker 13 (55:20):
Or whoever the caregiver is, or whomever is doing the
being the caregiver of the child. You have two individuals
maybe one like I hear every week, every day, I
hear so many things that have to do with lying. Okay,
but they children see things. Children very smart. One thing
(55:41):
I can.
Speaker 7 (55:41):
Say about children. They are very smart.
Speaker 13 (55:43):
And by the way, children are not bad. They are smart.
They're very intelligent. And when you start doing things you're
not supposed to be doing, they're learning it.
Speaker 15 (55:55):
And I'm gonna tell you, they're shaped by everything in
their school. And it starts off in a hole with
Santa Clau coming down to Chimbley and eastern and the
bunny having eastern head.
Speaker 7 (56:03):
That's where they learned a line from.
Speaker 13 (56:04):
Oh well, yeah, they guess and guess what they do.
And now they learned it and guess what they're doing.
They're learning it, they're using it. And when you say
children know how to manipulate, yeah, they learned it. But
yet we want to punish them for something that they
learn from us.
Speaker 9 (56:19):
I'm not a big fan, and I probably should say this.
I'm not a fan of CPS.
Speaker 13 (56:24):
Can I share something with you, mister Ali? I hear
you to a certain extent, but I'm sure something with you.
As many individuals I have in my classes a week
constitute child abuse I'm not saying that we do. But
there are individuals out there that came from dysfunctional families.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
I mean dysfunctional.
Speaker 13 (56:46):
I mean there's If you give me a perfect family,
I sure would like to know.
Speaker 4 (56:51):
Please send them to me.
Speaker 13 (56:52):
I would like to go in their house and sit
there for a long time.
Speaker 12 (56:55):
Well, a lot of the times where I see it
when I say that is that sometimes it's not even
related to that. But you know, you have children. A
child could just have an accident, could fall and hurt themselves,
and then now you and and it does happen, I
mean a child could I would not I would be
hesitant to take my child to the emergency room if
they fail accidentally insistently happened to them, because I mean
(57:18):
they come in like the squat team, and before before
you ever get an opportunity to you know, and sometimes
and what you go through and and sometimes you're dealing
with human beings who sometimes I believe have agendas and
and you know, so I think that you know that
creates and sometimes I mean when you can't you know,
(57:40):
parents a child the way that you want to, then
what happens is is that basically you're just creating a
lot of times children that that's going to find themselves
in juvenile hall and other places. Sometimes it's the lack
of discipline that actually ends up getting kids into that
as opposed to you know, people who are on drugs
and beating their kids.
Speaker 9 (58:00):
You know, is a different story.
Speaker 4 (58:02):
It shouldn't be parents anyway.
Speaker 16 (58:04):
Yeah, for thirty seconds, real quick, Look this don't lose
the focus. The root cause and the reason why we
punish our children is to set some type of boundaries
in place so they will follow inherent rules and laws
and structure, either of our own or society a component.
So lit's don't get caught up in the methodology whatever
(58:24):
it takes to get that child to follow those rules,
so they won't go out there and destroy society and
destroy everybody else because of lack of discipline and respect.
Speaker 7 (58:33):
That's what we got to enforce and get so deep into.
Speaker 16 (58:36):
How as opposed to the wise, the wise are the
important thing. That's why I said, I'm not going to
criticize anybody for what they do. If I see at
the end of the day that child is down in
their business, I'm going to salute whatever the heck they're doing, so.
Speaker 12 (58:48):
Goddamn so anyway, So, yeah, so I think that, Yeah,
I think it's a great discussion and it's one that
could be because it's a really complicated. It's almost really
like it's a lot more deeper than do I support
corporal punishment or do I not support corporal punishment because
there's a lot more involved in it, especially when we're
talking about hearing.
Speaker 13 (59:08):
It's very much.
Speaker 15 (59:09):
So yeah, So and if it don't work, if something
don't work, try something different, doing something.
Speaker 12 (59:16):
But I do want to share something with you for
I think we're gonna run out of time.
Speaker 9 (59:20):
We're gonna got thirty seconds left.
Speaker 4 (59:22):
But what they gonna do?
Speaker 9 (59:27):
They gonna do so any at any rate, Thank you
guys for tuning in.
Speaker 12 (59:30):
I wish we had some more time, but again, man,
I appreciate it. It was a great subject matter and we
do need to discuss this because parenting is important. But
I think everybody, thank our guests, Thank everybody for tuning
in and on behalf of the Justice Watch crew Rosa, Yes,
Michael blau Kark and doctor Kilbasher.
Speaker 9 (59:49):
Thank you for tuning in.
Speaker 12 (59:50):
We'll see you next week, same time, same place, same channel,
and until next week, stay blessed.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Use on kcaa lowel sponsored by Teamsters Local nineteen thirty two.
Protecting the Future of Working Families Teamsters nineteen thirty two.
Dot org
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