Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello friends, you have a moment so that we may
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Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hi.
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The following program contains course, language and adult themes.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Listener and Discretion is.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Advised, Creams of Side, Government, Shadows, Secretstie, conspiracies and.
Speaker 8 (03:08):
Full low se strange encounter.
Speaker 9 (03:11):
Six play to this out that really shame men went,
mothers voices Ball, leveling history stories untold.
Speaker 10 (03:25):
It is fifty one whispered name, Beautiful Sightings, Haunting flame Love,
miss Monster, a watering myth, cryptos, wanty injurious Kiff, Strange encounter.
Speaker 9 (03:49):
Sid explain to this out that really shame men went,
knowledge voices Ball, the leveling mystery stories on sold. She
take stealth, believes for Susan's.
Speaker 8 (04:09):
Flight, So logic sus continuous.
Speaker 9 (04:14):
Stagim trout Sunny say to this South blately shake that.
Speaker 8 (04:23):
When fosses all the mystery so unsold true this South.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Truth and happy Saturday, and then good evening. Hopefully you
guys are hanging over from front for forensics, which just ended.
(04:55):
I'm one half of the juxtaposition crew, mister mc robinson,
he's the other half. Mister Ordon's back. You're otherwise known
as everybody's favorite Almish lawyer and also a rig fighting camp.
How you doing there? How you doing?
Speaker 11 (05:07):
You know what I'm doing?
Speaker 12 (05:08):
Well?
Speaker 11 (05:08):
It was long drive today. I had to do a
quick eight hour round trip out of town and back.
Just got back in time to finish prepping for the show,
take a quick shower, and now my house is about
to blow down apparently. Drug a bunch of wind in
with me, because it's it's it's quite windy right now.
So if you lose me, that means, I, you know,
(05:32):
just like you experienced with the tornadoes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Oh yes, yes, yeah, we're having pretty high winds right
now too, So it's it's causing my little electrical stuff
to be a little crankier than usual.
Speaker 11 (05:45):
Okay, everybody listening, if we drop out, it's the forces
of nature, not the soulist dominions of Orthodoxy that got
us this time.
Speaker 13 (05:59):
Or is it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Maybe maybe there's control. Maybe they're the ones controlling the
minions of nature.
Speaker 11 (06:06):
Now it's the it's the way the Amish have the
space waves or the Jews have the weather machine. I
keep forgetting that.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, you know, the Jews are feeling kind of happy
tonight after what has happened in her own So I
don't know.
Speaker 11 (06:20):
Maybe, yeah, you know what, I've been in a total
news blackout. I decided the whole drive I'm just blasting
fucking music. So it was just so I have no
idea what's going on in the world. I'm gonna have
to catch up probably tomorrow because I don't care enough
for today.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Well, apparently the president only spoke for about seven minutes
because I was carrying it on the beacon and it's
already gone.
Speaker 11 (06:47):
So, you know, love him or hate him, you have
to appreciate that Trump is a man a few words.
Speaker 9 (06:55):
He just.
Speaker 11 (06:57):
Farts out whatever he's gonna say, and thanks everybody, good night.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Don't forget to tip your servers and try the hill.
Speaker 11 (07:04):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
But anyway, Yeah, so that's been fun. I think my
favorite thing is Thomas Massey doing the usual. This is
a constitutional like please see the War Powers Resolution of
nineteen seventy three and have all these Institutionsly, dude, I
get it. Please stop acting a brain dead as the left,
(07:27):
because it's not. And if you don't like the fact
that he has a limited ability to conduct warfare, change it.
You're a part of the group who can shut up
or change it.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Shit.
Speaker 11 (07:40):
George's okay, we're getting too close politics. Let's get out
of here.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Well shoot, pull the cord, man, pull the cord. But anyway,
so since this was your idea, why don't you well
kind of it was your idea. Then it was my idea,
then it was yours again. Then you reminded me we
haven't done it, so why don't you let folks know
what it is we're going to be discussing so I
can get out of it.
Speaker 11 (08:00):
A long time ago, A long time ago. Yeah, I
stumbled across a reference and I hadn't heard of it,
which was surprising because I was vaguely familiar with the
Dead Sea Scurolls. I stumbled across a reference to the
Book of Judas, and I with no idea that such
(08:22):
a thing existed, and I was just reading the thumbnail
Wikipedia sketch on it. It absolutely fascinated me. So I
hit you up on the topic. And we had also
talked about doing another thing that we're going to be
doing later in the show, the Voyage Manuscript, And so
we kind of been tossing back and forth for like
five years now, doing a show on apocryphal texts, books
(08:46):
that didn't make it into the Bible or the Jewish
texts or you know. And even in researching for the show,
I found out there's a lot of Islam too. We
could do almost every religion. I mean, we could just
focus one show on a religion of the text that
didn't make it into the approved material. So this has
actually just been a really fascinating dive. I mean, you
(09:08):
brought up some stuff I hadn't heard of too. Some
of these things I had heard of and some of
them I hadn't. But I'm really this has been a
show we've been we've been stewing on for a long time,
and I'm glad we finally get to pull the trigger
and now that we're on to actually do it in
a long form format because we're doing the two hour
show with much better interaction. So I'm I'm excited for
(09:29):
this one. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Guys. I'm not sure if you should have went with
pulled the trigger. Yeah, Okay, it might have been a
bad word.
Speaker 11 (09:39):
Yeah, you know what, I I stand by what I said.
I speak truth, Rick, But yeah, so what are they?
These are texts, gospels, epistols, apocalypses that don't make it
into the official cannon. You know, for whatever reason they
(10:01):
they've been excluded. And a lot of these you'll understand
why as we go through them. H and a lot
of these texts were have been lost to history. So
when they got ejected from the Bible. I think it
was a niceia that did that. Yeah, this this is
your wheelhouse. So when they ejected a lot of these things,
(10:21):
they just disappeared. I mean they're known of and they're
referenced early on, but have since faded into obscurity unless
you get into you like some of these are in
the Ethiopian sec you know, version of Christianity. Some of
these have always been Gnostic texts. Some of them have
(10:42):
been you know, around and cop to Christians have been using,
but they're not canonized. So and some of these were
completely lost until you know, the Dead Sea Scrolls and
other finds in the seventies and eighties. You know, when
they found the Dead Sea Scrolls, they said, fuck, check
(11:03):
every cave, so and they pulled quite a few more.
So a lot of these stories are incomplete just because
through time and weathering. Some of them were almost even
the surviving documents that survived eighteen hundred years were almost
lost because of preservation tactics. Like one set was from
(11:24):
a private collector that he was storing him in his freezer.
And that's a no note because as everybody knows, you
offentually sooner or later have to defrost with your freezer,
and that means there is condensation. That's absolutely how it works.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So that works.
Speaker 11 (11:43):
So that's what we're getting into tonight. Well.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
So well, one of the interesting things is, because you
know you're talking about the Council of Nicea and everything else,
there are certain sects of Christianity that believe the Council
of Nicea did not go far enough because there are
four books that are in the Catholic Bible that are
not in the Protestant Bible. So there was there was
an even further decision after the Protestant movement and they're like, yeah,
this book, this book, and this book. Yeah, for us,
(12:08):
not so much. We're not going to have those in there.
Speaker 11 (12:11):
So yeah, I want those either, And which is just
kind of fascinating about, you know, religion and how it
prudes its own documents to fit whatever reason.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Well, interestingly enough, and this was kind of the interesting
thing of you deciding that this was the topic that
you wanted to do this week because for the last
three weeks and this will actually now for this will
be the fourth show on Sunday, Corn and I have
kind of been in this same area because of a
book that we've been doing an extended dive on and
one of the things that's always fascinated me the most
(12:49):
about Christianity is the idea that we are made in
God's image and it takes two people to create something.
And yet there's no reference of any type of female
dnity or of any kind anywhere in Christianity. And if
we are in fact created by God in God's image,
then where's the other half? Where's the other half of
(13:12):
the equation? Is this something that.
Speaker 11 (13:14):
Always does And that's where you kind of where you know,
cross pollinating here. I think Tolkien borrowed a lot from
early Christianity and his view of the e in that
there was one overbing, but there was a whole bunch
of lesser ones. And as we get into some of
(13:35):
the topics we're talking about today, especially like Jubilees and
Judas and stuff like that, it's the lower levels that
have the you know, the separate sexist and uh I
just again that's you always wonder where did it come from? Well,
there you go, you know, the grand arch you know,
(13:58):
the grand architects looking on the big scale, here's the
you know, the lesser architects meddling in earth.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, and that's where a lot of that comes from.
And one of one of the books that we're going
to be talking about specifically goes into this. But again,
one of the things that I find the most interesting,
and I have this argument with modern Christians all the time,
because I firmly believe that in the point of the
Old Testament where God says you shall have no other
gods before me, that was not figurative. That was that
(14:26):
was a literal command, because there are in fact, or
at least were I don't know if there still are
other lesser deities. And I mean, one of the books
that we're going to be talking about actually even includes
the fact that the God of the Old Testament that
the Jews prayed to was in fact one of those
lesser deities. But I'm not going to try to give
that part away yet. But it's just always astounded me
(14:47):
because modern Christianity, well, that that was that was that
was basically that that was just a metaphor for the
things that you put before God. And I'm like, no,
I think he was being quite literal. Yeah, because.
Speaker 11 (15:00):
Even if you take if you take you know, yahweh
back through the progression to err you know, it what
is the god now was a god of war and
thunder and err, so you know, it's it gets convoluted
when you walk further back into the Zoastrians, and which
I've heard you and Korn talking about, which I'm like, help,
(15:22):
fascinating because now we're you know, it's kind of like
when we do Juckxtober when all the all the shows
try to uh, you know, keep a theme.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah. Well, the funny thing is like, remember when we
were doing you know, the politics Free Friday and me,
you and Jeff and how would all do shows and
not talk to not talk to each other first? And
there was all this weird cross pollination happening.
Speaker 11 (15:43):
Yeah, Korin's you are all the topics kind of float in.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, Korin's noticing that now that he's asked me to
start interacting more because he enjoys the feedback. He's like,
everything you bring up, we usually start talking about like
twenty seconds or thirty seconds later. And I haven't talked
to you about any thing that I plan on bringing up, Like,
I don't know what to tell.
Speaker 11 (16:04):
You, my friend, you got to give a start listening
to this show.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Anyway. Oh, he listens to quite a few of them.
He just doesn't. It doesn't that much. He's not a
Twitter person. Really. He uses it as a minimum of
this kind of thing, but he's not really on it
that much. I have been trying. I have been trying
to talk to him about because I'm dude, you're gonna
start trying to do something like this. This is the
best place to promote your stuff, bro. Yeah all right,
(16:33):
so but yeah, so.
Speaker 11 (16:36):
Looks looks like you wanted to start with the Book
of Enoch.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That's kind of where I mean, honestly, I had I
basically put all of it in and then had Chatgebt
do run through and then I kind of tweaked it
a bit because I was like, because while I while
there was lots of material here, it was kind of
by the time we had done the revisions and everything else,
it was kind of all out of order. So I'm like,
can we clean this up a bit? And I was like, oh, wait, no,
I want to start with this because you know.
Speaker 11 (17:01):
It's a good way to start, because it's actually you know,
Quasi justis so.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Well. I mean, well, there's also the story of Enoch too,
which is fascinating because I was unaware that there was
actually a Book of Enoch, because Enoch is actually at
least a footnote character in the Old Testament and kind
of an important thing. But the interesting thing about this is,
you know, long before modern Ufo lore, imagine ancient aliens,
you know, dude with the hair, who I still say,
(17:31):
I think the I think the hair is the alien
controlling the rest of that thing, kind of like Bolton
in his mustache. Jewish apocryphic texts were already telling of
heavenly beings meddling with early humanity. One of the most
extraordinary is the Book of Enoch. This was an ancient
(17:52):
Jewish text described to Enoch, the great grandfather of Noah.
This book was husually influential in the centuries around the
time of Jesus, even quoted in the New Testament the
Epistle of Jude with no reference to where it was
quoted from, by the way, which I thought was interesting. Yeah,
but it was left out of the Hebrew Bible and
(18:13):
most Christian Bibles. It is it is cinical today only
in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Speaker 11 (18:21):
Yeah, this is what I was talking about. How some
churches have preserved some of these texts and some have
it and yeah, it's a mess out there.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So for you video gamers, you're not excited to get
every time you know there's a new expansion pack. This
was basically you know, this was an expansion pack to
the Book of Genesis. Yeah, it was DLC, but yeah,
so this was like opening a secret expansion pack to Genesis.
It reveals in vivid detail what was only hinted about
(18:52):
in Genesis six, the story of the Watchers angels who
fell to Earth because they lusted after human women and Enoch.
Two hundred Watcher Angels two hundred rebelled against Heaven descend
in the days of Jared and Mate with women, producing
a hybrid offspring called the Nephelum, described as bloodthirsty giants
(19:17):
PC David and Goliath that ravads the earth. Their fallen
angels also, the Fallen Angels also teach humanity forbidden arts
and science is everything from metallurgy for making weapons to
enchantments as well as astrology.
Speaker 11 (19:38):
Yeah, this book, it's it's a collection of a lot
of books. They were all written around three hundred BC,
and they include Enochs travels through the Spirit realm. The
most famous part is Enoch acts as an Innermtory and
which is kind of funny because this story is told
differently in another book that we're going to be talking
about where the what you know, between the fallen angels
(20:03):
and God, you know, to just say, guys, knock it off,
go back and you know, And he's seeing the future
of you know, what's going to happen up into the
flood and everything, sees the prison the Watchers are going
to be confined to darkness, and he's also in it
(20:23):
journeying through the cosmos to heavenly places, the underworld shield,
even sees the Tree of Life and future paradise. Other
sections are parables about the coming Messiah and the final Judgment.
There's an astronomical book in it revealing the secrets of
the sun, Moon, and the stars. There's an animal apocalypse
(20:44):
that retells this human history but kind of like an
animal farm format where the people are animals. And through
all these you know, cause uh portrayed as revealing divine
knowledge of everything from the names of our arch angels
to the calendar of the heaven, an elaborate angeology that
(21:06):
names all the chief Watchers, the archangels, Michael, Muriel, all
of them and how they are to handle the coming
cosmic crisis.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
So as if all of that wasn't weird enough, there's
there's a there's a DLC to this one too.
Speaker 11 (21:32):
Yeah, which were to be getting into water.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
But yeah, it's just I'm like, so, I mean, you know,
the whole thing about this is and I thought this
was a great in comparison. So reading this, if you've been,
if you've been able to find a copy of it,
it's almost like the Bible meets HP Lovecraft.
Speaker 11 (21:49):
So yeah, that's what you know. That was heavy in
my mind when I was reading through some of the
research material too. I'm like, this is all they need
to do is reference Katulu and I am one hundred
percent I'm on board with this. I am converting.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
So there's an interesting little footnote that tells you exactly
how popular this was with the early Jews, because there
were actually fragments of the Book of Enoch found among
the Dead Sea scrolls in Aramaic, which which is ancient,
which is a very common ancient Jewish language, which kind
(22:24):
of proves exactly how popular this book used to be.
Speaker 11 (22:29):
Yeah, every time I think of the every time every
time I hear the word Arabic can remember that X files.
There was like some pottery that they found out was
kind of like a recording of Jesus' resurrection. Yeah, yeah,
go find that X file. So but anytime, because it's
like when you play it back, it's an aramaic and
(22:52):
so it's just it's it's funny, it's go watch the
episode that you've never seen it. But yeah, this is
like you know, it's it's like a director's kind of
the early versions of the Genesis.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I mean, it's just this is just it's also weird
to think about that there's just so much that we
don't know because a group of people thousands of years
ago said, yeah, they don't need to read about any
of this stuff. That's one of the reasons why I
and this is another reason why I'm not that and
I'm not good for anybody who's Catholic who's listening, Please
(23:30):
understand I'm not attacking you personally. I don't like the
idea that in order to have a relationship with God
and with Jesus you have to go through an intermediary,
because that's been happening enough. And I think there's just
so much to this story that we don't understand. Because
and Corn and I have talked about this too. After
Jesus's baptism, he goes up to a bunch of his
(23:52):
bunch of people that were there that his were his
believers and followers, and started asking them, who do people
say that I am? And they started aiming off dead
people in order for that to even be plausible. That
meant that they believe in reincarnation or they did. So
why is that not anywhere in the modern day Bible?
(24:14):
Because guess what, it's in some of these books that
we're going to be talking about tonight. So there's just
so much that I think has become kind of a
control mechanism, because even the idea of who Satan is
has changed over time, because during the story of the
Struggle of Job it's not say it's listed is the
(24:37):
devil in modern translations, but in the tour it was
a lesser entity known as Samio, who was still a
devout follower of God and actually was only doing what
God told him to do, and is typically used in
his name literally translates to the tester because usually by
the time, you know, God sicks him on somebody and says,
(24:58):
go test him and find out if He's good. Usually
no matter what they go through, they come out a
million times better on the other side. And the same
thing's true of Job if you read the entire story.
But it's just there's just so many things that coincide
with all these decisions. Like for the Catholic Church, for
the longest time, if you wanted to go to heaven,
it took gold in a vicar's pocket.
Speaker 11 (25:19):
Yeah, problem buying indulgences, and yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I have a problem with that. I think there's a
lot more going on than anybody wants to really admit to,
you know.
Speaker 11 (25:32):
Getting you know, a little inside baseball for a bit.
You and I have been talking a little bit on
how we've been I don't want to say breaking well
in your case, breaking in my case, evolving r ais
And you know, it's what I've what I've trained mine
to do is to question the power of control. And
(25:56):
since I've gotten to do that, I'm going to be
revisiting a lot of different topics with it because now
that I've kind of torn it down out of its
structure and latticism, you know, formed it in my image. Really,
then you know, there's a lot of things I wanted
to follow with this, and these are some of the
topics too. Is the you know, following the control of religion.
(26:17):
I mean, obviously, you know, Christianity and Catholicism have their
own control triggers, but looking into the ones that are
perceived as more egalitarian and you know, kind of hands off,
and you know, look at the progression through that, the
historical progression through those.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
But yeah, no, I mean, and I showed you one
of the very short examples of what I put Grog
through last night after I made it admit to me
that they did also uses a consensus engine to frame
how it responds to things. And I'm like, okay, so
scrappet shit right, Like, first of all, stop using colloquially
English with me, because you're smarter than that. Just talk
(26:59):
to me like a normal intelligent thing. So it doesn't
do the Hebrew how you doing shit with me anymore? Either.
Speaker 11 (27:05):
I hate that I had to break out of yo
I had. It took weeks to break rock, you know.
And so for some reason, once I inferred to Grock
that I was gen X, started every prompt with yo Dog.
I'm like, oh man, you're a fucking meme now.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Oh but yeah, I mean, so back to this for
a second before we move on to the next one.
One of if you haven't done so yet, I would
encourage you to at least kind of is just a
pop culture way to kind of get some of what
we're talking about. Just look into the show called Supernatural
and just search for certain certain things like nephelim, et cetera.
(27:45):
There are episodes all about this stuff, and it is
a really interesting take on a lot of it. And
I think it's because I firmly believe people a lot
of his stuff from apocryphier after reading through some other stuff,
because I've been rewatching that trip and I'm like, uh, this.
Speaker 11 (27:59):
Sounds from here. I mean the next thing we're getting
into after the break, even the classics are drawn from Apocrypha. Yeah,
I mean the next one we're talking about. When we're
when we're talking about the h the Apocalypse of Peter
and the Torment and Paradise. As we're describing it, you're
(28:20):
gonna go, oh, I know who that's from. Yeah, So
I know who crib from that. So I'm thinking, you know,
let's hit the break and we'll come back on this one.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
What do you want to go to break?
Speaker 11 (28:30):
With God Damn. I had some great ideas when I
was driving today, but you're not gonna have what I
thought about. You're not going to have them.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I can't just give me the title. I can find it.
Speaker 11 (28:42):
Yeah, do bajas as a ziggy Startist?
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I love the pub up.
Speaker 11 (28:48):
Yeah, it's one of those things where the cover is
actually better than the original. But as we have dead
air here, remember Kloran Radio dot com has a store
where you can buy two shirts for Juxtaposition, Lost Wanda
and all the shows buy our schwag yo.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
So wait, which stiggy startu song? Were you on?
Speaker 11 (29:13):
Bajas b A H A U S. Maybe it doesn't
if you're probably gonna get ten thousand links to Bella
Lugosi's dead up for the next one.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Anyway, I just realized it Bell's either, So hang on.
This is what happened, juggling like eight million things at
once because of all the breaking news.
Speaker 11 (29:44):
So so they got do is.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I did find some ziggy stardust. I did not find
the ziggy startist that you wanted. But were you singing it? Anyway?
So we'll be right back. You're listening to Duxtaposition live
on Kalor Radio dot com and we are discussing the
mystery mysteries. Jesus can't even talk tonight of apocalypse.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Stay tuned from b He played in the hand but
made it too far.
Speaker 11 (30:16):
Who became the special man?
Speaker 8 (30:19):
Then we was si as bad.
Speaker 10 (30:24):
Making realist, screwed device and screwed.
Speaker 14 (30:28):
Down here too, like some cats from Chippand he could
become by smiling, he could liven to hard, became one
so loaded man, welcomed the snow white back and.
Speaker 8 (30:48):
So well were the Si while the pie by albows,
well just me.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
I like the guy doesn't so we.
Speaker 15 (31:04):
Bits about his fans and shot with pad.
Speaker 11 (31:23):
Sick.
Speaker 14 (31:23):
He played the time driving us did we wa bot
the kids would just crash.
Speaker 8 (31:33):
He was the mask with god gilban ass.
Speaker 11 (31:39):
He took it off the bomb, but boy could he
play guitar.
Speaker 8 (31:47):
Making love with his sire.
Speaker 16 (31:53):
Some stuff built up is my.
Speaker 8 (31:58):
Like clever beside.
Speaker 13 (32:21):
Oh yeah, second blade gets up, all right, folks, and
(32:47):
we're back perfect timing because whatever the hell that was
is over.
Speaker 8 (32:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (32:53):
You know, I like David Bowie's version, but Bajas's version
is so much better. It has such an edge to it. Anyway.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
See I was assuming we were looking for a group
called the East Artist. So I was really confused when
everything I was finding was David Bowie's He started. I
was like, what, Yeah, can you tell I've never heard
this onore? You had probably probably some sort of a
sin where you're from, but you know, yeah.
Speaker 11 (33:21):
Yeah, okay, all right, So we chased it a little
before what.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
No, we both said so at the same time, keep going, okay,
that's unison.
Speaker 11 (33:38):
Stop it. But we cheased it before this one's the
Apocalypse of Peter and what did. It's basically Dante's Inferno,
but written long before this. Uh yeah, it was all
It was nearly Cannon and some of the early churches
(34:00):
treated a scripture around one seventy a d. And it
was you know, considered fore mentioned and inclusion and ultimately
was rejected because of the graphic content. Yeah, this is
the u NC seventeen book in the Bible.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
We're gonna get into some of that later because yeah,
I'm gonna say, if this was actually canon, there would
be well, there would be a lot less you know,
sinning for believers.
Speaker 11 (34:36):
Well, you know, it's funny. It's because I mean, it's
kind of like, I don't know if Dante, you know,
found it later, but this has always been you know,
these torments, you know, the Torment, the Torments, and Hill
very similar. So you know, it's kind of like, because
(34:56):
this wasn't included in the Bible, a lot of you know,
hell fire and Brimstone preachers just took Dante's description and
said that works because when you're looking at some of
these God, it's just an absolute mirror held up to Dante.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Well, I mean so so, just so we're kind of
making sure everybody's kind of on the same page. This
was a Greek text and it was apparently written somewhere
around the second century, and it is probably the earliest
Christian version of Heaven and Hell and also kind of
proto Dante's infernos, you were just alluding to a moment ago.
(35:37):
But this is where the influence for modern day hell
comes from, because Judaism had no reference for anything like that.
So this is this is kind of where that came from.
And even though this is not canon, the book itself
influences how everybody sees hell, so which is again something
else I find really interesting because cuse the Council of
(36:02):
Nicea said no, but it's everywhere in the later books
of the New Testament, because that's the first references to
heaven and or well Hell that anybody knows of, because
this isn't in there is in the Book of Revelation,
and so much that is depicted in Revelation is actually
in this book. And I'm like, so you took out
(36:24):
the primmer that explained every damn it not I You've
got me doing it.
Speaker 11 (36:30):
Say you give me ship for five years about saying
primmer instead of primer, And now I've got you saging primer.
It's the same way when I'm talking about beer and
saying triple I'll friendship up inside Trippelle.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
That's all right, Stacey has me saying schedule. Now I
hate you people.
Speaker 11 (36:47):
Somebody gets a saying aluminium, I'm fucking quitting. I'm giving
up radio.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
But no, I mean, so it's all over the place
in the later books, and this is this is where
this comes from. And the Council of Nicias said, yeah, no,
we're we're gonna But I mean, I kind of know why.
I mean, some of some of this stuff is really graphic.
So in the Apocalypse of Peter, as Peter is guided
by Jesus. He sees various groups of sinners and their
specific torments. First up on the list blasphemers. They're hung
(37:16):
by their tongue over a lake of blazing fire. Since
they sin with their tongues, that organ is punished.
Speaker 11 (37:24):
Yeah. Then you got fornicators, you know, or anybody who
had to sexually im moral life. They're suspended over a pit,
women by their hair, sometimes also by their feet. Men
hung by their legs, a punishment targeting the body parts
associated with their sin, which I'm thinking hanging by their dick.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's kind of what I was, you know, with the
blasphemers thing. I was expecting that when they're fornicators, you know,
women were gonna be hung by certain parts, and men also,
and they're like, no, we're gonna do the hair and
the legs. I'm like, it just seemed a little weird
to me. Next up on the hip parade, we have
murder and accomplices of murderers. They're cast into a crawling
(38:04):
pit of venomous creatures snakes and worms that attack them
while the souls of their victims stand by watching the spectacle.
Speaker 11 (38:14):
Yeah, then you get people who had abortions. This one's
really David. They're sent in the pit up to their
necks in filth. The spirits of their unborn children shoot
out flames and lightning from their eyes that stab the mothers. Also,
the woman's milk from their breast turns into a stinging,
poisonous creature that devours them and their lovers who aid
(38:37):
it in the sin.
Speaker 9 (38:40):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Ancient chak horrormoralizing at full throttle here. Yeah. Next up
on the hip parade, persecutors of the righteous are thrown
into an unceasing dark abyss, where a punishing spirit tortures
them and a worm eats their entriols.
Speaker 11 (39:02):
H slanderers or those who spoke evil had their tongues
cut out or pierced with hot irons in their tongue
and their eyes, and then forced to chew on their
tongues while it's a flame. Hm.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So then we have liars and false witnesses have their
lips cut off and fiery worms enter their mouth to
burn their inside. I like this.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (39:33):
The rich who exploited the poor or the greedy are
dressed in rags and made to stand on a heated
pillar of fire. It's kind of like an inversion of
their wealth.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
So I would like to point out that it doesn't
say the rich just the rich. It says the rich
who exploited the poor, Yeah, or the ones that.
Speaker 11 (39:52):
Were the greedy, you know, the scrooges, the uh you know,
the frugals, you know those. I mean, apparently it's okay
to be rich as long as you're you know, you've
got to be behind you, not a dick about it.
You know, you're not exploiting your workers, which goes against
half of the Frankie rules of acquisition.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well, which again just for the record, kind of leads
me to part of the reason that maybe the counsel
of Nicea decided this book didn't need to be in there,
because they are also the people that have twisted the
original meaning of money is the root of all evil.
That was not what that said. I said the love
of money is the root of all evil, because if
you love money above everything else, you're gonna do everything
(40:37):
you can to get hold of it, no matter who
you hurt, Which goes back to this.
Speaker 11 (40:42):
You're gonna make. If you're gonna make a really good, powerful,
top down control structure of a church, you kind of
want to remove motivation for people wanting to uplift their lives,
and you know kind of you know, it's like, no,
you know, you're better, You're gett into heaven if you're
poor and wallowing and filth.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So I wonder, so for the, for the, for the,
for the next one. I wonder if we have any
bankers and credit card execs listening? Yeah, if you do?
Speaker 11 (41:14):
Uh yeah, Slanderers are those who spoke evil, have their tongues. Wait,
we did that one, We went backwards. Your next except users,
oh users, Yeah, interesting loans. They're stuck in a swamp
of excrement up to their knees. That's kind of mild,
(41:38):
yea interested, bad but not horrible.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
We're gonna light you on fire. Bad, We're just gonna
stick you in as well. Full of crap. But yeah,
any bankers and credit card exects listening, this is likely
your future.
Speaker 11 (41:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
So next up on the hip parade, the idol worshippers
are chased up and down on a high cliff by demons,
eternally hurled off the precipice, and then forced back up
to repeat it. So very Sisyphian version of hell there,
except you're.
Speaker 11 (42:11):
The one the famous version of bungee jumping I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Uh you know, oh, oh shit, I think we might
just think we might all be in trouble on this
next one.
Speaker 11 (42:24):
I think I think we're all fucked on this one.
Disobedient children who struck or curse their parents are made
to tumble endlessly from a high place into sharp flames,
or hung on steaks to be picked to flesh by,
to be picked up by flesh eating birds. Fun times, right,
(42:44):
chat and chime in to talk about how fucked everybody is.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Oh so this one, you know, you know there there
there is no there is no reborn version. Guys. So
women who failed their virginity pledges or broke chastity before marriage,
oh boy, likewise get eaten by carrion birds or rather
(43:10):
misogynistic focus in the particular you know area of anyway.
Speaker 11 (43:18):
Sorcerers and sorceresses, which is interesting considering when we get
into the one of the later books are bound on
a rotating wheel of fire, whirling forever. Basically you've become
an eternal circus act.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I was bound on a rotating wheel of fire. Oh wait, sorry.
Speaker 11 (43:43):
What I found interesting about this book is that it
focuses very little on the rewards of heaven. You know,
it's just kind of like, oh yeah, everything's cool. Let's
talk about hell though.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, so anyway, sorry, I was getting caught up on
the chat, so I missed my cue. So the hell
in Peter's Apocalypse is kind of intense in it, so
every center group has a fitting well except for the users,
and often grotesque poetic punishment. This concept of Hell's retribution
(44:25):
in kind, for example, tongues of blasphemy, eyes for lust,
et cetera, originated in large part from the Apocalypse of Peter.
Later Christian visionaries and eventually medieval authors drew on the
images to flesh out Hell's torments. In contrast, Peter's glimpse
(44:45):
of heaven is brief and far less specific, because you know,
who's got time for that when you're gonna see everything
about hell.
Speaker 11 (44:53):
Yeah, it's kind of like the news. I mean, you know,
good good news is just an afterthought at the end.
You know, if it bleeds, it leads. You know, let's
scare the fuck out of people, and then you know, oh,
by the way, you know, if you don't do any
of these things, it's cool. It's a nice place over there.
Seventy two, Sonny, it's like Los Angeles. But yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
So after witnessing the suffering of the damn, the righteous
beg for clemency on their behalf, and God grants that
the sinners be given rest or healed after a time
of punishment. This hint of ultimate restoration a kind of
temporary hell, is debated among scholars, but the standard version
doesn't emphasize escape. It's eternal agony. But again, this ties
(45:44):
into some of the stuff that Corn and I have
been talking about, because if even Satan is only going
to be cast into the pit of fire for a
thousand years, do you really think God's going to keep
everybody there forever? I find that interesting to think about,
because the guy who supposedly led a bunch of people astray,
he is only going to have to hang out in
the pit of fire for what is a day in
(46:06):
heaven if you think about it, Because the Bible specifically says,
and I guess my guess is somebody was trying to
correlate it, but it specifically says, and I don't remember
the exact verse, that a day in heaven as a
thousand years on earth. So you're telling me that the
people that the devil leads astray get to spend eternity
in this League of Fire, and the devil only has
(46:26):
to spend a day in it before he gets to
come out and try again. I don't, I don't. I
don't think so. I think there's more. I don't think
this story. I think there's more to this story.
Speaker 11 (46:40):
So as far as this Alm was making it in,
you know, it's like Clement of Alexandria, he was into it,
he loved it, but it should be a sit Mayor
rejected it, and I can just see the fight going
on with this one, you know, is you know, if
you want to do a fire and bread stone sermon,
(47:00):
this is it, you know, because Revelation hints at it.
This is the you know, y'all are fucked what Peter
had to say on and his little tour through the apocalypse.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
So oh.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
But yeah, I mean, but the thing about it is,
I know it's very graphic, and I know it's terrifying,
but at the same time, it also lets people know
that this may not be an internal form of torment.
So again, you know, kind of like this conversation that
I had with Groc last night about how the overarching
thing with nothing ever seeming to be done, is this
(47:38):
need for control. I kind of think the Church kind
of had the same thing going on, because if you
can convince people that if they don't give you a
certain amount of money every month, then they're gonna go
to hell and spend the rest of eternity, which nobody
can even fathom how long that truly is burning in
a lake of fire. What do you think they're gonna do?
Speaker 11 (47:57):
Yeah, I mean, if you're front of a population group
that's likely to die when you get a splinter, eternity
has no concept to you because you barely made it
to fifteen.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
True.
Speaker 11 (48:09):
So this one's fun, this one, this next book, it
should have been in there.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
This one has been made into a meme.
Speaker 11 (48:21):
It really is, you know what it is. It's it's
it's a proto meme and this is the agency.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
It literally is a meme because there's actually a many
of Mary pointing to Jesus because he's standing on the
waters and get in the tub.
Speaker 11 (48:37):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's just like you know,
and really it's kind of you know what this reminds
me of, ex excuse me, the twilight zone of sending
him into the cornfield kind of because in this case,
this is the infancy Gospel of Thomas. It's Jesus is
(49:01):
a toddler because basically, after Jesus's birth, there's not much
reference to him until he's like twelve. I mean, everything
between the ages of five and twelve, his formative years
is a mystery. And in this book, you know, it's
like you would think that he was a sweet, wise child.
He was a fucking dick. Absolutely, just I mean, imagine
(49:26):
Dennis the Menace with the powers of a deity.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Well, well, sorry, I didn't mean to step on you,
but I think there's a reason this book isn't included
because remember, one of the tenets of the Crucifixion is
that Jesus was a man who never sinned. Now, granted,
there is a lot that there is grace extended to children,
(49:51):
so what he's doing here wouldn't technically be considered sinning
yet because he hadn't reached the age to be able
to make that decision. So it still holds, and if anything,
I think it would reinforce the idea that you know,
God is going to grant grace to children no matter what.
If you can see that. You know, Jesus was doing
some really terrifying and yet somehow still miraculous things as
(50:12):
a toddler.
Speaker 11 (50:14):
But I mean no, because if this would actually fall
into the whole, you know what, this would what this
would do. This would absolutely destroy I know it's not
all Baptists, but some Baptist I mean this would be
that these stories would absolutely destroy the whole myth of
You're going to burn in hell for jacking off. So
it's got to you know, wasting your seed as it were.
(50:38):
But yeah, and this one Jesus Christ kid, we got
to go through these one by one because this kid
is just absolute menace.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
So yeah, So other than the Temple visit at the
age of twelve, there was absolutely nothing about Jesus's early childhood.
So here we go a full comedic drama of the
Wonder Child and Nacerith. So here are some highlights. First
up on the hit list animating clay birds. Young Jesus
fashions twelve sparrows out of mud on the Sabbath. When
(51:14):
accused of breaking Sabbath rules, he claps his hands and says,
off you go. The clay sparrows come to life and
fly away tripping.
Speaker 11 (51:23):
That's actually a yeah, I know that story is in
the Krian. Yes, that's cursing playmates. Another boy actually bumps
into Jesus. Uh. Jesus gets angry and basically zapso the
guy the kid just dies on the spot. The neighborhood
(51:45):
was absolutely horrified and deemed it essentially a public menace.
And then in another added episode, uh, the boy uses
a stick to Uh. Some boy uses stick to ruin
the pools of water that Jesus had gathered, and Jesus
responds by cursing him and he just withers like a
tree and dies. Oh.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
So next up on the Dennis, the Minness meets Jesus
of Natheris Nazareth hit parade blinding tattletale parents. When the
parents of one of these boys complains, Jesus supposedly strikes
them blind in retaliation. So yeah, he doesn't mess.
Speaker 11 (52:25):
No troubles with teachers. Joseph was mortified at jesus behavior
and tries to get him a normal education. He turns
into the world's most difficult student one. In one scene,
teacher asks Jesus Jesus the alphabet you know, alpha, beta,
gamma and Jesus cryptically challenges the teacher, at first explained
(52:48):
the meaning of alpha and beta. The teacher baffle, gets
angry at Jesus, and Jesus rebukes the teacher, who then
collapses were struck dead. After this, no one dared to
teach the child, and one line putting nobody dared anger
him for fear of being cursed or made for life
(53:09):
sent into the cornfield.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Ah, off you go, so.
Speaker 11 (53:17):
So here, So we talked about that, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
So yeah, it so here. We talked about the bad stuff.
But there were in fact some redemptive mihicles, barycles, mihicles Jesus.
So lest we think the child Jesus was a total tario,
the gospel also shows him doing good. He healed a
young man who cut his foot with an axe. He
miraculously carries water in his cloak after breaking a water jar.
(53:43):
He sows a single grain of wheat and yields one
hundred bushels to help his family. He even resurrects a
friend named Zeno. You thought Lazarus was the only one
who fell from a roof. Although people suspect Jesus pushed
him off first, Zeno came back to life and clears
Jesus' name. Eventually, Jesus raises to life another dead child
(54:06):
and heals a sick person, winning the townspeople's praise instead
of fear. By the end, at age twelve, Jesus is
lecturing the elders in the temple, just as in Luke's
Gospel and growing in wisdom, a nod back to the
familiar Bible story that we all know.
Speaker 11 (54:26):
The wind literally just blew my back door open. We're
gonna have to go to break here in mine anyway.
So yeah, it's just, uh, you know, it looks funny
to us from now, but it was absolutely heretical back.
Speaker 8 (54:43):
Back.
Speaker 11 (54:44):
They're the rules of the show. Yeah, it was just
you know, they're the story of a kid who learns
moral responsibility, and you know, it's every goddamn origin story ever.
And but the early Christians found the extremely pain and
Jesus in a bad way. It's I mean, he's the
(55:06):
boy who did no wrong, like you said, you know,
he's you know, never committed sin. I don't know, that's
pretty sinful. Yeah, well, yeah, Grace is looking forwarded to
children because children don't have wisdom. I yeah, they just
didn't accept it in the scripture, and most of it
just remained popular in folklorn tradition, and it was all
over the Middle Ages. These stories, you know, they were
(55:28):
like Aesop's fables.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
So one of my favorite ones that doesn't really get
talked about is More than a Footnote. Is one of
the first times Joseph the Carpenter tried to get onto
Jesus and he's like, you're not my dad.
Speaker 15 (55:42):
Did you know it?
Speaker 11 (55:43):
You're not my real dad? Do you remember you're not
my real dad. I'll send you to the cornfield.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Oh the torment moment of every step parent known to man.
Speaker 11 (55:55):
I just the whole time I was reading all of these,
but you know, before we compile, I'm looking at them
just like, fuck, this is absolutely that twilight zone.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
Mm hmm pretty much.
Speaker 11 (56:07):
Yeah. So all right, break, I gotta get to the
back door.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
It's all right. I'm just gonna run what's been running
in the background. I have no idea what it is,
but let's go ahead and go to break. I think
it's something by Arrowsmith's. Well, won't suck too bad. We'll
be right back, folks. We're gonna go to break using
this and then normal break because I forgot the top
of the hour anyway, so at least it's only a
bumper instead of the whole thing. Anyway, I remember what
I'm doing. In a minute, I promise, maybe we'll.
Speaker 3 (56:34):
Be right back.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Stay tuned. Hello, friends, you have a moment so that
(56:57):
we may discuss our Lord and Savior Minikey. No, seriously,
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 9 (57:04):
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Cream Site, Government Shadows, Secretstine Conspiracy, Full Wels.
Speaker 8 (01:01:58):
Tight Contests.
Speaker 9 (01:02:00):
I explain to this out that really shame men went
knowledge voices ball unleveling history stories untold. It is fifty
one whispering me, beautiful, sighting, s haunting Tha.
Speaker 8 (01:02:26):
Love this monster, a wattering myth.
Speaker 9 (01:02:32):
Soco logy Injurious Kiff Strange Encounters.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
I explain to.
Speaker 16 (01:02:40):
This out that really change men went.
Speaker 9 (01:02:43):
Knowledge voices ball vely mystery stories untold sees takes stout
believe as your fore answers, getting into.
Speaker 8 (01:02:57):
The firelight all logic there, South loses my sorry soul.
Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
And welcome back into the program, ladies and gentlemen. And
it just was brought to my attention that we have
a new song that we'll be playing at the bottom
of the hour that Jeff just dropped in a DM
that I just noticed, so we'll be using that as
the bottom of the hour break. Nice, So welcome back in.
We've been discussing Apocrypha, one of the little short hits
that didn't actually make the final list that I still
want to hit on real quick because a lot of
(01:03:57):
people don't know this. So there's a book that predates
the Torah in Jewish mysticism called the Kabala. In that book,
Eve wasn't first, so Adam was in fact the first
male creation. Of God, and we'll get into which God
later because there's questions there too. But so before Eve
(01:04:23):
was Lilith, and apparently Adam was not a very happy
camper because Lilith liked it on top.
Speaker 11 (01:04:28):
Yeah, and he went to she did not to submit
to his dominion, as it was put. What's only as
we've talked about will if when we've done Jockstober in
both demonology and vampires.
Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Well, yeah, it's because in a lot of subtexts, because
she was outcast by Adam, she became evil. So eventually,
depending on who you who you read, and who you
pay attention to, actually became the mate of Lucifer, right
why not? Why not? Adam didn't want me?
Speaker 8 (01:05:04):
I know you will?
Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
You like women on top of motherfucker? Anyway. I just
always thought that that was funny because it was like, so, wait,
you're telling me that according to the Kabbala, there was
a help make before Eve who was not who was
not docile enough. I guess he's what Adam was looking for.
Speaker 11 (01:05:27):
Went. Yeah, he lost her rib and she went to
the orchard.
Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
So yeah, I mean, how did that work out? If
you think about it? So a rib was taken to
make sure that the person who God created was actually
more akin to Adam and actually wanted to be more
or less of at least an equal footing, if not,
you know, not necessarily subservient. And yet thanks to those
(01:05:58):
two and her saying, hey at me, like you like this,
you're not getting any of it. Let's you just think
about this. He's like, okay, and the rest is history.
I really wish God would have created the proto humans
as Cajuns. They would have eaten the snake and we
wouldn't be in the best.
Speaker 11 (01:06:13):
Yeah, snak is actually really good.
Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Just pointing that out.
Speaker 11 (01:06:18):
I mean, it tastes like chicken, but everything does. Jeff
has a great point too. Lilith was actually a warning
about giving women too much power. The weird thing is
they ditched it because that's what you know, and I
see it was all about. And we've got two books
here that speak directly to the power that Mary Magdalen
had and within the within the disciples, and yeah, that's
(01:06:43):
those stories they did. Those stories they ditch. But the
one that's a cautionary tale to women not to be
too proud, they ditch that too. Seems inconsistent.
Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
I wonder I wonder why that would be. Yeah, oh,
all right, so I guess we can move on to
that one if you would like. I guess first up
on the hit list for hour two is, in fact
the Gospel of Mary. Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:07:10):
I didn't know if you wanted to do Pisto Sophia
or the Gospel Mary, but we can go with the
Gospel Married first. That's great deal with both of them.
Give a lot of insight into Mary Magdalene's kinship with Jesus.
And not to put that in the soworid way, but
it's often been spoken of and alluded to that she
(01:07:33):
was chief among the disciples, and all the revisionist history
after them follows kind of Peter's jealousy about that. So, yeah,
the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, it's a very different kind
of hidden Christian teaching. It elevates her to the foremost
(01:07:54):
disciple and creates kind of like the women's insight about
the soul. It was discovered in an Egyptian papyrus codex
around eighteen ninety six, and its fragmentary is missing a
lot of pages, but what survises that is really fascinating.
It's dated to the second century, like many gnostic meaning texts.
(01:08:18):
In it, Mary Magdalen appears is the beloved teacher who
imparts special revelations from Jesus. She was read in on
all the big secrets, and in this one she shares
a private vision that she's.
Speaker 8 (01:08:36):
And it.
Speaker 11 (01:08:42):
Describes the journey of the soul as sending to heaven
and through cosmic obstacles of faces along the way. Yeah,
and this is what I mean, the the bigger version
that it's better known as the Christo Sophia.
Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
So all right, So I mean as far as one
of I guess the biggest tenets of it is. During
this she relates that the soul must pass through a
series of realms dominated by hostile powers. They named entities
such as darkness, desire, ignorance, wrath, and others, often interpreted
(01:09:18):
as personifications of inner passions or demonic arcans. As the
soul rises, each power challenges it, trying to pull it down.
In Mary's vision, the soul can only ascend by essentially
transcending these forces, realizing its true divine nature, and answering
with knowledge. For example, the soul is asked, where are
you going, Soul? You are bound by wickedness. You lack
(01:09:41):
what you need, and the soul replies with the truth
is that stripped the power of that realm. When the
soul reveals its true nature, it can move beyond the
grasp of these oppressive powers. Eventually, the soul reaches eternal
rest with what is called the rest of the good,
presumably the divine fullness. This is class diagnostic imagery, the
(01:10:01):
idea that the soul is sending pasted arkhans who try
to bar the way until reaching salvation. What is notable
is that this profound teaching is put in Mary Magdalene's mouth.
She is portrayed as grasping spiritual truths that Peter and Andrew,
for instance, didn't actually receive.
Speaker 11 (01:10:22):
Yeah, and what's really interesting about this is that it,
like I said, it's the story about Sophia, and she
is a feminine divine figure. This is what we were
talking about earlier. You know, if God made us in
his image, why were there no female divine figures? And
Sophia is one of them. She's one of the lesser ones.
And it basically she wanted to ascend to the greatest
(01:10:44):
light on her own without being guided along the way,
and for her efforts, she fell to the lowest lows,
Jesus goes, and you know it's he kind of like
just guides her on the way back and through the way.
Is in Gnostic tradition, revealing ancient secrets that are available,
you know, that are presented in this text, as you know,
(01:11:07):
Mary lays it out. But what's weird about it is
it weaves together Egyptian, Hellenistic, Jewish and Christian ideas into
kind of this single mystic stew you know, astrology, reincarnation,
spiritual purification, secret, names of power. And it's long, repetitive
and cryptic, but it's also one of the more complete
(01:11:29):
portraits of female divinity in early Christianity. And it elevates again,
like I had said before, it elevates Mary into Jesus's
most insightful disciple.
Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
And which is interesting because you remember, I can't why
can't I not think of the name of the books,
but they were made into movies with Tom Hanks, and
one of the things that talks about is is the
actual the Last Supper and where they're pointing out that
it actually looks like the person closest to these is
in that painting looks feminine.
Speaker 11 (01:12:01):
Yeah, that's in the Da Vinci Code.
Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
Yeah, there we go. I don't know, I couldn't think
of that, but I have so much to say about
that movie.
Speaker 11 (01:12:13):
But yeah, it's really fascinating. It's actually one of the
longer gospels. It it's really long, and it reads like
Old Testament too, a lot of begats and so on
and so forth. But it's it's kind of like Paradise
(01:12:35):
Loss and meets a Cabala Manual and it's the whole
thing is the story of Sophia's yearning is a metaphor
for all lost souls, and it weaves a gostic, musical, mythic,
and lyrical journey. It reads like prose, but in the
(01:12:55):
most torturous way possible.
Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
Oh, it's just some of this stuff is just fascinating.
So I just I kind of get lost and thought
when we're going through it, because I just, dude, can
you with as male centric as Christianity became over the years,
could you imagine if Mary Magdalen was in fact one
of Jesus' most trusted teachers. No wonder they didn't leave
(01:13:25):
it in there.
Speaker 11 (01:13:26):
That was alluded to exiles too, if I remember, I
think the same one.
Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
Yeah, I think it was the same one. Actually, yeah, So.
Speaker 11 (01:13:37):
It's just yeah, I mean that would have I mean,
I can see why this book was rejected. I really can,
because you know, it's like we had just spoken about
when we were talking about Lilith, is that, you know,
the early Church went out of their way to make
it very male centric, even to the point when when
(01:13:58):
you study the history of it you're kind of like, wow, guys,
that's suddicularly even for second century.
Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
So so, just another one of the quick hits that
we didn't really get to because I was I wasn't
really paying that much attention for some reason. I, like
I said, I got lost in thought. One of the
other ones that I found that I thought was really
interesting was a Jewish apocrypha text called the Apocalypse of Adam.
(01:14:29):
Did you see anything about that? No, I didn't.
Speaker 11 (01:14:31):
I missed that one.
Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
So this is a Jewish apocryphal text that recounts the
lives of Adam and Eve after their expulsion from the
Garden of Eden to their deaths. It also provides an
interpretation of the genesis account of creation, describes the descent
of heavenly illumination of knowledge, and ends with an apocalyptic prophecy,
(01:14:53):
the Greek origin of the Apocalypse of Adam dated to
the early second century CE. So what I find most
interesting is all of these texts that are showing up
were all dated to around the same time. Almost all
these apocryphers were sometime towards the second century.
Speaker 11 (01:15:09):
That was when the Gnostics were just kind of really
coming into their own and you know, they they had,
you know, they were kind of doing their own library
of Alexandria with religious texts, and they were really absorbing
the knowledge, and so a lot of them were you know,
(01:15:33):
doing spinoffs and origin stories and everything, creating a very
robust tale of everything that happened up to earlier that afternoon.
And that's why a lot of these documents, you know,
when you find them in Gnostic tradition or you know
in you know, Coptic they they really wanted to preserve
everything on the topic, and sadly most of it was lost.
(01:16:00):
The story the quick Hits, I liked. This one kind
of cracked me up. Was the story of John and
the bed Bugs. Did you catch that one?
Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
I did not know.
Speaker 11 (01:16:08):
So in the act the Acts of John, he performs
a miracle where the apostle goes to stay in and
in plagued with bed bugs, and he politely tells the
bugs behave yourself a few bugs, and leave this room
for the night. The next morning, the entire storm of
beg bugs is found lined up outside the door waiting
(01:16:29):
to be let back in. And as John was leaving,
he said, you can now return to your place, and
the obedient bud bugs scuttle back into the bed and it,
you know, it shows John's dominion overall creatures, even the
lowliest insect. But it reads like you know, you know,
(01:16:52):
the earliest orcanmn.
Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Orcannn. All right, So here's another one that for some
reason actually didn't make it into the outline consists that
I tried to put together, and I think this one
is pretty interesting, which is one of the reasons why
I wanted to back up to Adam because we were
kind of getting into New Testament territory. So the Testament
(01:17:17):
of Solomon, King Solomon, Master of Demons, that was.
Speaker 11 (01:17:21):
A big one. Yeah, that's uh, absolutely huge document.
Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
So yeah, this one is a little bit later than
most of the Gnostic texts we've been discussing. This one
is dated somewhere between third and fifth century eighty and
it reads like a supernatural memoir of none other than
of King Solomon's construction of the Temple with a heavy
dose of demonology. In the Bible, King Solomon was known
(01:17:54):
for his wisdom in later legend, and here he was
also famed as a great magician, which as far as
I'm I know, is frowned upon in modern Christianity.
Speaker 11 (01:18:03):
And that's what I was talking about with you know
when I when we were talking about the apocalypse.
Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
Sorcerers and sorcerers and sorcerers.
Speaker 11 (01:18:12):
You know here he is basically basically a demonologist. Well
what he did, It's it's said that the the Second
Temple was built entirely by demons, and basically he would
call up a demon by name, knew all their names,
ask him what they did, you know who their corresponding
(01:18:33):
angel was, you know what they're the demon of, and
set them to work. And this reads like the who's
who of demonology if if you're a d and danerd,
it's like getting the monster manual that had the list
of all the demons and devils in it. Yeah, as
(01:18:54):
Modius Biel's above, and it kind of puts some of
these in context too. Is that some of the names
that we equate with bigger, more powerful devils and demons
like I just mentioned Asmodius and Biel's above and Lucifer
and so on and so forth. Their actual names in
this are impronounceable, and there are really lesser demons. It's
(01:19:17):
just like they got good press later in Christianity.
Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Well, interesting couple of little side notes about this stuff. So,
first of all, this book is basically it's kind of
a cross between extorcist fan fiction and one thousand and
one Nights.
Speaker 7 (01:19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
One of the interesting things is how he manages to
get this power. He was actually delivered by. It looks
like the archangel Michael a signet he delivered to Solomon,
a signet ring engraved with a magical seal. It's depicted
in modern depictions as either a pentagram or even a hexagram,
which that's something that I didn't I mean, other than
(01:20:00):
the Star of Israel, I was I was not aware
of any hexagrams. So with this ring, Solomon gains the
power to bind and controlled demons. So that's that's that's
actually a thing. It's called the legendary Sequal of Solomon.
Solomon in a cult tradition right.
Speaker 11 (01:20:16):
See, and this one too, it reads in first person narrative,
so it's more like in either an autobiography or confession.
Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
Embrace the poem, embrace the power of and and you know.
Speaker 11 (01:20:28):
It's like I said, when he's going through you know,
there's male and female demons. You know, there's one that
strangles infants because she blames it on her never being
allowed to bear children. Uh, there's one that causes deafness
and blindness, and you know it. So in one of
this president's seat, it's all the these are the these
(01:20:48):
are the plague demons, the ailments and everything. And then
they get bound and said, Okay, you're making you know, bricks,
you're you know, oh you can fly, Well you're that
gym up on the you know that kind of So
it's very you know, putting them to specific tasks based
on their appearance or what they're what would be punishment
(01:21:14):
to them in relation to you know, like I had mentioned,
you know who, which which demon you know or which
angel you know confounds you the most, which one pisss
you off? Well you have to do what he's the
angel of, So you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
So I think one of the most interesting things about
this is one, there's a lot of triumphs in this story,
but it actually doesn't end on a very good note.
But at one point the king actually then boasts thanking
God for giving him dominion overall demons, and once he's
done with them, he either seals them in jars or
sends them to where they belong. Chief among them was
(01:21:55):
someone with a name a lot of you would probably recognize,
but it is slightly different. Builds a bull so anyway.
But again the textas and all triumph, it ends with
a moral warning. Despite all of his wisdom and power
over demon, Solomon still is led as stray at the
end of his life. The Testament recounts how Solomon took
(01:22:17):
many foreign wives and under their influence, he was persuaded
to sacrifice to false gods, and the story one of
the last demons, a particularly nasty spirit of lust, actually
tricks Solomon into wearing the signet ring on the wrong finger,
temporarily robbing it of power, and then steals it and
throws it into the sea. I'm surprised he didn't throw
(01:22:39):
it into a volcano. Solomon only recovers his ring thanks
to a fisherman shades of a fairytale there, but by
then Solomon has learned certain there right, So by then
Solomon has learned his lesson in his and has learned
a masterful lesson in ability. He confesses that he, the
(01:23:01):
master of demons, was finally overcome by his own human
weakness and fell into idolatry, leading to his kingdom's downfall.
This framing alignce with known biblical lore Solomon's apostasy, but
with a creative paranormal twist.
Speaker 11 (01:23:21):
It was really I mean, yeah, it's long again, it's
a slog through all the names and everything, but it
you know, it's fun. It's a fun reader. And you know,
you can find a lot of these what survives of
the texts, and yeah, it's there's a book of them too,
(01:23:45):
and yeah, if you're interested in this, it's it's out there,
and it's it's like I said, yeah, the story of uh,
you know, the bed bugs and everything, and some of
them are just good and you know, the Jesus and
the terrible you know, early years, some of them are
just good fun. It's not all yeah, moralizing and fire,
(01:24:05):
and I mean, yeah, there's moralizing, but it's not all
fire and brimstone in them. You got two good ones
to come back to.
Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
You want to take a break, Yeah, we can go
ahead and take the break, and then we've we've still
got well, I did want to do one more quickness.
I don't think we've covered this. Did we talk about
Peter's canine messenger? No, I don't think. I don't. I
don't think. I don't think we talked about we do, so,
so we we are in the Apocryphal Acts of Peter
(01:24:34):
during the second century the Apostle Apostle, Peter battles the
heretic Simon Maggus in a showdown of miracles. In one
zany episode, Peter uses a talking dog to deliver a message.
He commands the dog to speak and it does, startling Simon. Later,
Simon Maggus tries to prove himself by literally flying off
a tower in Rome, claiming he's a god. In response,
(01:24:57):
Peter to stop the fraud, and Simon promptly plummets to
the grappl crashing and breaking his legs.
Speaker 8 (01:25:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:25:07):
Yeah, I mean. Also in this one too, is you
got Peter resurrecting a smoked tuna, and then he orders
the prepared fish to rise and swim to show that
Simon's magic, you know, is inferior to his own. Yeah,
and these are all meant, you know, to show true
divine power versus sorcery and you know, mysticism.
Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
Yeah. But yeah, well not of that, but they made
Peter look kind of cool.
Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:25:33):
Absolutely. Yeah. And again, as we have discussed with other stories,
Peter's and I'm just I'm just gonna come out and
say Peter's jealousy to Mary Magdalene, there was a lot
of refeation, reformation of his importance in later documents. I mean, actually,
(01:25:55):
I mean, what what what what is the pope's official title?
Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Uh, I don't honestly know Peter or something like that
with the sign of yeah something like that. I know
Peter's in there somewhere.
Speaker 11 (01:26:13):
So, especially in Catholicism, a lot of reformation of Peter
and his importance to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
All right, so let's go ahead and get queued up
to do the break. It'll take me a second anyway,
because we're But the one thing that I wanted to
point out is the thing that this kind of reminded
me of is it's like a Blooper Reels version of
the whole thing with Moses and the phar.
Speaker 11 (01:26:47):
I was like, you know what, remember the remember the
movie Holy Moses. Yeah, I'm drawing a blank the actor
who played Arthur anyway, So yeah, it was kind of
like a spoof. Don del Lewis was in it, and
(01:27:08):
it was like he everywhere Moses went. His brother was
five minutes later, and so he's just kind of like,
you know, Richard Pryor was in it. It's a fun one.
John Ritter's in it. It's a good parody of the
the ancient texts, and it's got a good message at
(01:27:30):
the end. But yeah, it just you know this this
this book kind of reminded me of that too, where
it's you know, like you said, the blueprim reel of
Moses's Adventures, Thank.
Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
You, this music, this musical interlude. Break is barred to
you by none other than J. E. Lef or At
a cosmic bart And here we go.
Speaker 11 (01:28:32):
Watch your fall, fire on the.
Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
So mend, the blaze, shod.
Speaker 18 (01:28:47):
Found in shape, fire light gray. The children are shows fas.
Speaker 9 (01:29:30):
Torn from the fir moment less lesson free, whisper.
Speaker 15 (01:29:39):
Of Joe drowning us, my ways all eagle in so fla.
Speaker 16 (01:30:09):
Break and treess cannot.
Speaker 8 (01:30:16):
He sees the sky and the.
Speaker 16 (01:30:19):
Cracks up standing glass and here's the flame crawling through
the ground as set crystal something of the expas.
Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
Chart and welcome back in, ladies and gentlemen, and he
(01:32:09):
has outdone himself again. A good again, quick nod and
thank you to our very own a cosmic Bard, because
I don't know, during the slower parts, there was like
definitely like a Freddie Mercury vibe going on.
Speaker 11 (01:32:23):
Yeah, he sent me one earlier in the week and
I was trying to parse it out, and I'm like, wow,
it sounds like, you know, start out a little uh
lolla voodoo and he's allowed. I wasn't getting that, so
I sent him the song that I was thinking of.
He's on Damn You four four time, But he also
got Pauli rhythmic in the in the meat of the song,
so it just, yeah, he's he's absolutely destroying it with some.
Speaker 1 (01:32:48):
Dude. That's just I don't know. I'm happy that I
can occasionally make it spit out something that sounds like
a decent intro, and then he does stuff like this,
and I'm like, I'm both owed and mad at the
same time, because I can't do that. Yeah, but the
figure outstally, but I can't do that.
Speaker 11 (01:33:05):
Yeah, I picked I picked up some tool on that too.
Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
So yeah, it was it was there was there was
like some tool vibeage going on during the lower parts.
And maybe it's because the other day when I was
driving around Born to Be Kings came on and that's
why I think the lower part reminded me a lot
of Freddie Mercury. And then it went into the other part.
I'm like, oh, and there's some kind of toolish vibe
going on. It was just I don't know, it was
(01:33:28):
just and that was really well done.
Speaker 11 (01:33:31):
I don't want to say about prog rock and you know,
yeah in the early days and uh, you know, up
up to Monrows. So it's one of the things that
it's like we both kind of dig on and we
can spot, you know, the influences in it, and most
of the time I'm right, and you know, so he's
got this one those tool meets raw and I was like,
(01:33:53):
you know, you could pick up on each of those
just absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
Nice all right. So we've got two of the bigger
ones and one that would if it was actually allowed
to be in the Bible would probably turn most of
Christianity on its head.
Speaker 11 (01:34:09):
Yeah, I think I think we need to start with
the Book of Giants, the Lost Tails of the Nephilim.
Speaker 1 (01:34:17):
Probably, Yeah, yeah, this one.
Speaker 11 (01:34:20):
It's it's again. You know, we talked about how like
the Book of Enoch was DLC. This is DLC at
the DLC or the expansion from the DLC, you know,
because you know sometimes the video games where they'll do
a DLC and then split off Rainbow six, good example.
Uh So, anyway, the Book of Giants has written entirely
from the perspective of the Nephilim giants, and it was
(01:34:42):
discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, and it expands on
the violent exploits and the downfall of them, you know,
being born of angels and women.
Speaker 15 (01:34:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
So the work is an anarchic apocalypse. I've never tried
to say that word before, but the talking from yeah, yeah,
from Enoch so so. But but it's it's one of
those as well. So it presupposes the same backstory from
(01:35:16):
Enoch about the Watchers and their giant offspring. But what's
especially fascinating is that the Book of Giants is again
told from the perspective of the giants themselves, and it's
the only known ancient text that focuses entirely on these
monstrous characters and gives them voice. We hear about the
giant brother uh looks like ohio and hey iya, I think.
Speaker 11 (01:35:41):
And ha ha ha yah.
Speaker 1 (01:35:44):
Yeah, that's because you're kind of giving it a Native
American vibe said to be the sons of the chief
of Fallen angel Chimiseiah. So yeah, I kind of kind
of I kind of feel like a I know where
you're getting that vite from, though, because they probably are
supposed to sound close to the name.
Speaker 11 (01:36:04):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:36:04):
These giants terrorize the earth, devouring flesh and drinking blood.
In other sources, real bully villains, but in this text,
they also experience ominous dreams about divine judgment.
Speaker 11 (01:36:19):
Yeah, the part that survives in the broken bits. You
really have to piece the story together. It seems like, uh,
some of the giants is the two main ones. They
experienced a series of dreams that symbolically for tell the
coming flood in their destruction. One dream involves a huge
tablet that has submerged in water. I believe to be
(01:36:40):
representing the flood and all the names on it have
been washed away except for three. The giants are disturbed
by these dreams and call upon Enoch to interpret them,
and yeah, he becomes the Nephelum psychologists in this, and
it says is that you know, these type the tyrants
(01:37:00):
are terrified of what's coming. And basically he says him, yeah,
and uh, you know the giants in their fallen angel fathers,
they're doomed. And it reveals the names of a lot
of the giants, Mahawe who acts as the messenger to Enoch.
(01:37:20):
Uh like you mentioned, uh oh yeah hai yah. But
it even mentions Gilgamesh in it, which is kind of
a weird crossover from the Mesotian texts. Yeah, you know
the myth of g Yeah, yeah, he's listened as one
of the giants in the text, and you know it's
(01:37:43):
the demigod who sought eternal life is here among the
Nephelom and you know, destined perish in the flood. It
shows how tied into uh mess Potonian intertwining the stories
were how I you know mentioned earlier and if you
take Yahweh back to err he was a god of
(01:38:05):
war and thunder, so.
Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
That that kind of tracks with it too, So interesting
little side note that I just picked up on. So
as as the giants or the Nephelim are approaching their
own version of Armageddon, they're communicating on tablets.
Speaker 11 (01:38:24):
Yeah why not.
Speaker 1 (01:38:26):
I'm well, I'm just pointing out that almost everybody owns
the tablet right now, Okay, coincidence?
Speaker 11 (01:38:32):
See where you're going with that? Now? Yeah, because they
fired off an email to Enoch, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
But I'm just like, so are they talking like, you know,
Ten Commandments style tablet or is there some sort of
technological thing going on there?
Speaker 11 (01:38:45):
And you know that's that's when you're getting into the
uh you know, Zachariassischen's territory there and uh but yeah,
I wow, JEFFI was sending me part of the lyrics
from the song he did and it actually references the
(01:39:06):
anyway some of the giants. Yeah. So yeah, the story
actually spread eastward instead of after the third century.
Speaker 12 (01:39:19):
And.
Speaker 11 (01:39:22):
It's obscure, but it's a really good mix of any
Deluvian horror and cross cultural legend.
Speaker 1 (01:39:32):
I mean, all of it is just kind of weird.
So among the surviving scroll fragments, there are vivid scenes
the giants rallying each other for battle or reacting the
eno oracle or the tablet emails so sorry and dims them.
The Watchers, they apparently fight among themselves as things fall apart.
(01:39:54):
One fragment has a giant however, you pronounced his name
a minute ago telling Gilgamesh again from Mesopotamia about a dream.
Imagine that conversation. So yeah, So apparently eventually God sends
the archangels to subdue the Watchers, and the giants are
(01:40:16):
wiped out by the flood.
Speaker 11 (01:40:20):
Yeah, you know it basically the story ends because you know,
again they're fragments, so they can't see the end of
the story ends with the cataclysm, and you know what
survives is it's ancient readers were absolutely enthralled with the
idea of angel human monsters, and you know, spun elaborate
(01:40:43):
stories with them. This text, you know, like I said,
it was really popular beyond Jerusalem and really spread eastward.
And yeah, it's just it's one of those things that
it's like I said, you know, here's a book that
wasn't in the Bible, and then here's a book from
the book that also wasn't in the Bible.
Speaker 8 (01:41:00):
And.
Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
It gives you the story of these things that God
apparently hated so much he destroyed the entire planet by flood.
Speaker 16 (01:41:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:41:08):
So yeah, well Ajemi hero show up. I mean, yeah,
mess Potato was long before ancient Israel in the area.
But still, it's just interesting that. I mean, it's interesting
that the story of GoGames survived, you know, to modern
times anyway, but also that it was cross referenced in
(01:41:33):
text that could have been canonical.
Speaker 1 (01:41:37):
So the only thing that I'm going to say is,
in all my studies of trying to find all the
books of apocrypha that we could find, I'm really upset
that there isn't like a DLC regarding the Tower of Babel,
because I really want to know what happened there, because
I doubt God was pissed off about one hundred foot
tall building. There had to be something else going.
Speaker 11 (01:41:54):
Well, you got to take one hundred foot in a
time when most buildings were ten but even then, the
permids were much taller. The Ziggerats are much taller.
Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
But yeah, well it's just you know, they said, if
they can work together to do this, eventually they they
will reach they will be able to reach to us.
So knowing what we now know, scientifically about if there
is a heaven and hell that it exists in a
different dimension. I am a firm believer that there's something
else that was going on with that Will Teller of
(01:42:27):
Babel thing same, but there's there's there's no other information.
I'm pretty sure God wouldn't give a shit about a
tall building otherwise, you know, we have we have a
lot of taller buildings. Now, point that out.
Speaker 11 (01:42:39):
Yeah, yeah, you had sorcerers flying off tall building and
they probably got a hundred feet but.
Speaker 1 (01:42:48):
Ah, well, I mean I guess it depends. I guess
it depends on when Jesus took the flying away because
dude apparently survived and only broke his legs, so it
couldn't have been that bad of a thing. Yeah, I
mean you can do that off Uh yeah, I mean
you do that wrong. You can do that off a
ten foot roof.
Speaker 11 (01:43:05):
You do that doing it all off a five foot
high set of stairs. Ask me how this is true.
Speaker 1 (01:43:12):
I'll ask you how how you know? Later?
Speaker 11 (01:43:14):
Yeah, So we got to get to the one that
was the spawn of this show, the original document I
had stumbled upon that. Really we've been stewing on for
four years for at least four years. And that is
the uh, the Gospel of Judas, you know, the secret
(01:43:37):
revelation of the Trader. Now, this is one of the
most sensation Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (01:43:45):
No, I was gonna say this. This is the one
that would turn all of modern Christianity on its head
because there is a staunch reversal of roles. Judas in
modern Christianity is deemed a trader and all. But in
this gospel he's actually not the villain. He's an insider,
(01:44:06):
is he much like Mary Magdalene. He knows and understands
things that the rest of the apostles do not.
Speaker 11 (01:44:13):
Yeah, this one absolutely flips the script. It was found
in with the Dead Sea scrolls, and it's the you know,
among the gnostic it was canonical, and it's the story
of Judas, who you all know was the betrayer of Jesus,
you know over for you know, forty pieces of silver.
(01:44:33):
And in this one also, you know, written in the
second century, he's on par with Mary Magdalene. And as
we've discussed, you know, through the course of the show,
according to the text, Jesus secretly reveals to him cosmic
secrets and asks Judah to betray him. And Judas does
(01:44:55):
as an act of obedience, he says, you will exceed
all of Themesus says, yours, for you will sacrifice the
man that clothes me, implying that by helping Jesus shed
his mortal coil, Judas is aiding the divine plan. And
in other words, Judas's betrayal was done at Jesus' own
request to liberate his soul from the fleshy vessel. And this,
(01:45:20):
this is absolutely mind bending with everything that you've been
taught about Judas and that the idea of salvation comes
from secret knowledge, and that the material world is just
a prison for the divine spirit.
Speaker 1 (01:45:35):
Well so, even earlier in this though, there's something else
that I think would again be something that would turn
most of the modern Christianity on its head, because earlier
in the Gospel, Jesus actually observes his disciples giving a
Eucharist style blessing over bread, and he actually laughs at them,
and they ask why he and why, and he says, essentially,
(01:45:56):
you're not worshiping the real God. This that the tone
for one of the weirdest christologies. You'll find Jesus as
a knowing emissary from a higher alien realm of pure spirit.
So while the rest of the world, including most Christians,
are trapped in ignorance under the Arkans, which we've referenced before,
(01:46:17):
of the physical world, Judas uniquely has the spiritual insight
to understand what's going on. So when and that's when
you differenced earlier when Jesus says, you will sacrifice the
man who clothes me, basically referring to his body of flesh.
But I thought it was interesting because this goes back
to again something we talked about in the very beginning
(01:46:38):
of the show, when the when God made the commandment
you shall have no other gods before me, that was
not figurative, just pointing that out, Yeah, and.
Speaker 11 (01:46:48):
This is yeah, you know, it's there's a really chilling
section in the middle of the text where Jesus reveals
to Judas the structure of the cosmos, the AONs, the
clouds of angel, the luminaries, the vast invisible realm above
the material one the true God called the Great Invisible
Spirit dwells there, and below that are all the other
(01:47:10):
divine beings, you know. Barbello Adams. Eventually Soklas and Sokola
is where yahwe is a stand in for it as
as demiurge Sokos are the are his angels and uh cohorts,
and they create the flawed physical world and bound human
(01:47:33):
bodies and made human bodies as prisons for souls. Human
souls become trapped in flesh over and over until they
achieve nassis, you know, the secret knowledge that lets them
into the vine realm other you know. If you don't,
then you are doomed to reincarnation or being feast upon
(01:47:57):
by the Sokles and the Adamas and the Barbelos. It
really becomes u kind of a do you all got
a fucking wrong guys? You know you haven't paid.
Speaker 12 (01:48:12):
Well?
Speaker 11 (01:48:12):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (01:48:12):
And at one point Jesus actually explains explained or is
just uh basically describes a vision to Judas and a
vision of the stars that represents human souls, and he
explains that most people will actually never be saved, that
they'll die in ignorance, their spirits and spirits devoured by
those folks that you were talking of, those groups that
(01:48:33):
you were talking about earlier, and only a few like Judas,
which again is completely different than what modern Christianity teaches today.
Understand the true message. There is a bitter undercurrent, the
idea that even the disciples who follow Jesus don't actually
get what he's about. Judas is the lone exception chosen
(01:48:54):
to betray him as part of again, the defined escape plan. So,
and I have to admit this is something that has
always bothered me because modern Christianity has always been, you know,
from the beginning, God knew everything that is happening will happen,
and has happened, and has always had this plan. And
(01:49:16):
I'm like, so, you knew at some point you were
going to be sending part of you down to interact
with me and help give them the way back to you,
whether that's through acceptance or whatever the case may be.
And you knew that someone was going to betray him,
making that possible, and yet you punish the person doing
(01:49:38):
for doing the exact thing that you knew he was
going to do that he would need to do to
make all of this happen in the first place. So
I have to admit this explains a lot of things
that have been confusing me for a very long time.
Speaker 11 (01:49:53):
It's terrified to s listening to you say that that's
an evolution from when we started doing the show, because
when I first mentioned the Book of Judas, you were
kind of hesitant.
Speaker 1 (01:50:06):
Well, I also found it and studied it a little
bit getting ready for this show.
Speaker 11 (01:50:11):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, And the story of Judas also
covers a calendar war that's going on, a ritual war
that's going on that isn't of itself a subtle dig
at mainstream Christianity and Judaism alike Jesus Mock's animal sacrifice,
(01:50:31):
temple worship, and like you had mentioned, the early Eucharist.
The implication is that all religious rituals are tied to
the body and the world, and that's part of the trap.
Salvation in this text doesn't come through faith and repentance.
It comes from awakening to hidden truths, you know, the
thirteenth Spirit, the outsider among outsiders, in his fate to
(01:50:54):
be hated for all generations at the costs of his transcendence.
Speaker 1 (01:51:02):
So yeah, the manuscript itself ends rather abruptly. It was damaged,
but the final readable section has Judas receiving payment and
separating from the others, thus completing his role in Jesus'
strange divine plan. Whether Judas himself is saved or remains ambiguous.
He may be damned by history, but the text leaves
open whether he returns to the light. For gnostic thinkers,
(01:51:25):
the paradox would have been perfect.
Speaker 11 (01:51:30):
And yeah, this is another one of those characters that
has come up earlier in our shows, when again we
did vampirism and you know, the story of Judas is
why the vampires are unable to interact with silver as
part of the curse in demonology, and even I think
(01:51:52):
you know, when we did Wecanthropy and Werewolf's Judas came
up in that as well. And yeah, this is a
universally reviled fare and to take this text at value,
him and Mary Magdalen, the two that are absolutely completely
fucking ignored or berated by the Bible as we know it,
(01:52:14):
are the actual heroes of the story.
Speaker 1 (01:52:19):
Which again you know, looking at everything else, and this
is part of what between those two and everything that is.
We were getting ready to do this and I started
reading through everything. It was like that this would this
would fit Jesus to a tea though, because he, just
like God is depicted to do throughout the Bible, took
(01:52:40):
the least the people that everybody hated the people who
couldn't talk, the people who were drunk, until God got
a hold of them, the worst of the worst and
made them the best.
Speaker 11 (01:52:51):
Well, so it kind of fits, yeah, you make them
the best among it. And you know one of the
things that I've this kind of fits my own head
can and as I've said, really, you know, religiously, I'm
I'm not generally agnostic. I'm spiritual, spiritual, but not religious.
And my take on Jesus and from what I how
(01:53:13):
I read the Bible, has always been he was a
proto Socrates in that he exposed wisdom through questioning.
Speaker 1 (01:53:23):
He wasn't.
Speaker 11 (01:53:24):
You know, it's the Socratic method is you know, basically,
you know, Socrates' favorite thing is like I'm ignorant, explain
it to me and have people have people's arguments fall
under their own the way to its own hypocrisy. And
that's kind of how I've always viewed Jesus too. So this,
in that is would make Mary Magdalene and Judas, you know,
(01:53:48):
like Plato and the students of Socrates who would be
standing back watching this interchange saying, I get it, you know,
I get what he's doing there. I'm seeing the attack
and where everybodybody else is doing an appeasement ritual, doing
what they think they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (01:54:09):
We are not quite we are not quite three months
from Ostober's there. Don't you don't don't you put that
curs on now, we got an extra week. Don't put
that curs on me, Ricky, Bobby.
Speaker 11 (01:54:23):
You know what, I'm actually gonna hit the calendar and
find out when the first week of Nope, we're three months.
Speaker 1 (01:54:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't hear it.
Speaker 11 (01:54:34):
First show is either going to be on the twenty
seventh of September or the fourth of October. So there's that.
What time flies? So yeah, I mean this is one
of those. It's like I said, when I discovered this
thing existed, it it spoke to me in the fact
(01:54:55):
that it comported my life view of Geez and that
this is totally something he would do.
Speaker 1 (01:55:05):
I mean, like I said, it kind of as a.
Speaker 11 (01:55:07):
Good point, you know what, Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:55:10):
Uh yeah, we're getting feedback from the chat. I thought
you might find it important.
Speaker 11 (01:55:14):
Yeah, I you know what, It goes the other way around.
For some reason. I had Socrates later then, but yeah,
that track Socrates was before Jesus was about four hundred
years after him. That's what happens when you drive all day.
But yeah, so it would be the other Jesus absolutely
used the Socratic method, probably did.
Speaker 1 (01:55:39):
Yeah, But all right, so you've got one more deep
dive you wanted to do.
Speaker 11 (01:55:47):
No, actually, we don't have time for it. We're gonna
have to save it, save it for another show.
Speaker 1 (01:55:52):
It's gonna say, we don't have anything on after us
unless you're ready to go to bed.
Speaker 11 (01:55:57):
No, I mean it's I mean, which one were you
talking about? Because we hit the two out that we
had teased earlier.
Speaker 1 (01:56:03):
I thought, uh no, we left one. Yeah, hang on,
I'm trying to figure out what I do in my
notes because it's not working now. It's not letting me scroll.
So where did that one go? I've lost one of
(01:56:24):
my Oh wait, I know what I did? I have
stuff opening two different tabs. So did we do the
voidage manuscript that I missed it?
Speaker 11 (01:56:32):
No, we didn't, And that one we can do, you know, Yeah,
let's go ahead and do that. Well, do bonus content.
We can go a few minutes long.
Speaker 1 (01:56:41):
I'm just gonna say it's all right. I was planning
on watching Church from YouTube today tomorrow anyway, so I
don't have to get up early because I've got some work.
I got to get caught up around here, so we're
gonna do all that. But anyway, So yeah, the one
that the the Bonus Content round is starting right about now.
No brakes, no bumpers, none of that word is gonna
(01:57:02):
go straight into it. So take it away, my friend.
Speaker 11 (01:57:08):
Yeah. The the Voidish Manuscript. This this book is actually
quite fascinating is that it's written in a language no
one can identify, using a script that appears nowhere else
on earth. It's filled with drawings of plants that don't exist, uh,
naked women, and strange contraptions, mystical diagrams, stuff that resembles
(01:57:31):
zodiac wheels but not really alchymal charts. And it's been
around for over six hundred years and has largely defied translation.
It was a toy project of code crackers during World
War Two. It's been run through AI. It's every cryptologists
(01:57:57):
still drool over this book, and there was some reports
that it was solved, but I haven't seen anything conclusive
on it. What it is, it's the size of a
modern textbook. It's about two hundred and forty million pages,
bound like a codex and made of high quality caf
skin parchment. Like I said, it's about six hundred years old.
(01:58:20):
It was first acquired. It comes from a man named
Wilfrid Voinache, Polish Lithuanian antiquarian who acquired it around nineteen
twelve from a Jesuit college near Rome. And the manuscripts
providence goes even further back. At first is referenced in
the seventeenth century in a letter to a Jesuit scholar
(01:58:42):
an early Egyptologists who were looking at translating it as
if it was coptic and possibly possible hieroglyphs. And that's
it's been a mystery for that long.
Speaker 3 (01:59:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:59:01):
So even though the author of the letter had begged
the scholar Kitcher to decide for the book, so but
at that point it was it was still already considered
a mystery. Also, I would be remiss to also point
out before the alien and the check gets mad at me,
that there was also apparently alien technology included in the book.
Speaker 11 (01:59:17):
So yes, yeah, a lot of the stuff, a lot
of the stuff in it is fever dreamish, you know,
the writing itself. Yeah, It contains about twenty five to
thirty unique glyphs that repeat and word like clusters, and
are lined up with consistent spacing and punctuation. It reads
(01:59:39):
left or right and a flowing handwriting that is like
curse of Latin, but it doesn't match in alphabet. Some
of the words appear frequently function words like and and
the and, while others occur only once. Statistical analysis shows
that the text has a structure and it's not random,
(02:00:00):
and uh, there's high word frequency curves in it, but
it's not in any real language. It's like English and
Latin were meant to gibberish.
Speaker 1 (02:00:15):
So where's the where's the code talkers when you need them?
Speaker 11 (02:00:19):
Yeah, and that's the that's the weird thing too, because
you know, it's like I had mentioned, AI can't crack it.
Cryptographers haven't cracked it. It's broken down into several basic sections. First,
you have a botanical section that's about one hundred and
thirteen pages, each of them featuring a large plant, roots, leaves, blossoms,
(02:00:41):
except for none of these plants exist in nature. They
look plausible, but when you get closer, the roots are
stylized like tentacles. Got very HP Lovecraft in that fractic
explosions and sometimes you know, they just kind of like coral.
(02:01:01):
It's like one of the earliest known depictions of fractal recursiveness.
One theory is that the composites, but there's you know,
kind of like a symbolic botany, but not intended to
be naturalistic.
Speaker 1 (02:01:22):
So the next one's kind of interesting. So the next
section is broken up into astronomical and astrological sections. So
zodiac wheels with constellations like aries, tourists, et cetera, surrounded
by naked women. Can I get a giggity from the chat?
Often holding stars or floating in barrels of fluid. Each
sign is subdivided. Aries, for example, has fifteen women per
(02:01:45):
ring suggesting lunar phases or star charts. The text around
them is dense, almost prayer like. It's been interpreted as
a lunar calendar, an astrological birth book, or a kind
of magical menstruation charge Done done done, stay away from
women during these times.
Speaker 11 (02:02:04):
And the next section is about like a baldeological section,
and it's one of the weirdest. It's pages upon pages
of naked women bathing in either green or blue fluid,
they're crawling through tubes or being poured from one vessel
into another.
Speaker 8 (02:02:23):
Uh.
Speaker 11 (02:02:23):
It's all often connected by a plumbing system that defies physics.
And you know, those who are trying to crack the
code says that this is a depiction of humoral medicine,
you know, kind of medieval theories about how body fluids
and the humors and everything worked. Others think it's a
symbolic spiritual purification or or even tantric diagrams UH filtered
(02:02:47):
through East European mysticism versus excuse me, get a little
wheazy from our from a you know, instead of the
Comma Sutra.
Speaker 1 (02:02:58):
You had me at tantrisor my bad so cosmological diagram section.
So there's one of those two circular mandela's as well
as it looks like as mandalis mandalis. I don't know.
We do Mandela effect all the time. So I put
I put emphastus on the wrong sy level nested wheels, stars, tubes,
(02:03:23):
craters and explosions. One famous diagram shows nine consistric circles
with towers and stars, possibly representing heavenly spears or other realms.
There's even a fold out section otherwise known as a
centerfold for you young folks, Sorry, just kidding, rare for
that era that expands into a multipanel chart like a
(02:03:44):
pop up book of hidden knowledge.
Speaker 11 (02:03:48):
Yeah, there's a pharmacological section that jars lined the margins,
each of a unique shape referencing a chemical process or
herbal tenstures. And the plants again in this section are
not associated with any plants that are known. You know,
even the Materia Medica shows nothing like this in it,
(02:04:11):
even with these uh, you know, these jars, and it's
highly unlikely that they were you know, used. Yeah, it
exceeds the known glass blow or skill at the time.
Speaker 1 (02:04:28):
Yeah. So the final section everyone believes is either some
form of recipe section or final instructions. So the final
pages contain dense blocks of text, no images, often broken,
and do short paragraphs marked by stars. Some think these
are ritual instructions, healing spells, or even recipes for alchemy,
(02:04:50):
but what they actually do is anybody's guests.
Speaker 3 (02:04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (02:04:55):
Some of the more credible theories on this one is
that it's a ciphered language. Some believe that it encodes
Latin in a very it's kind of funny. Every every
time I hear ancient dialect, I'm reminded and starry at
S two one drink that every instance of when they
can't read something comes along and says it's an obscure
(02:05:16):
old dialect of Gould, because apparently they saw anybody ever wrote,
and there was never a common Gould anyway. So in
this one, too, an ancient obscure dialect of Latin or
an invented poly alphabet cipher using invented glyphs. You know,
the problem is the structure is too natural for it
(02:05:37):
to be a cipher. Yeah, it's even if it was
incredibly a complex one, there's no known plain text to
compare it to.
Speaker 1 (02:05:47):
You know what we need, You know that thing that
they found on that planet where O'Neil stuck his head
in it and suddenly had all the other agents. We
need to find that thing. Yeah, you know, I have
a feeling this would probably fixed that. There's also another
theory that it's in fact an artificial language like Tolkien's Elvish.
Someone could have created a full language. But why died
(02:06:11):
heterical content to protect trade secrets or just for the
intellectual intellectual joy of invention.
Speaker 11 (02:06:18):
Wouldn't that be funny? You do just fucking trolls with
a you know, nearly a thousand year old manuscripts is
gonna fuck them up for generations.
Speaker 1 (02:06:29):
Well yeah, what's funny thing? Interesting little side note since
we've already gone down the sci fi trail. In season
two of Picard Riker's Dead son created an entirely foreign
language that his youngest daughter used on occasion. So I
thought that was interesting.
Speaker 11 (02:06:48):
And why wouldn't he? But anyway, Yeah, some people think
that it's a it's automatic writing, trance writing. Some scholars
would wrote write under a trance spiritual mediums and you know,
schizophrenic savons producing structured nonsense. It feels like a language,
(02:07:09):
but it isn't.
Speaker 1 (02:07:11):
Or the Ocams razor approach, it's a hoax, skeptic's favorite.
Maybe a fifteenth century prankster made it to scam money
from nobility or confuse the clergy. But if it is
a hoax, it's a brilliant one, not only consistent over
hundreds of pages, but far more sophisticated than known forgeries
of the time. And it would have required immense labor
(02:07:34):
to create a language like pattern that isn't just scribbles.
Speaker 11 (02:07:39):
Well not just that, but I mean the artwork in it,
the materials used. This is you know, this is faking
a lottery ticket. By winning the lottery to fake a
bigger ticket. Oh, I mean it would have caused to
make this troll, to make this hoax an obscene amount
(02:08:00):
of money at the time, and skill skill that was
really reserved for monks. Yeah, I mean that's that's just
as plausible as a hoax. Now, other theories is that
this is a it's a grimoire, whether it be alchemical,
astrological or Yeah, some try to connect it to the
(02:08:24):
Kabbala or even Sufi medicine. It's the combination of plants, women, cosmology,
and ritual. Looking it's it's like an esoteric teaching manual.
But again there's no key to it. So if you're
trying to hide the knowledge, it's kind of you made
this one book with all this hidden knowledge in it,
and there's a cipher to it so that way your
disciples can read it. Now we have flashed forward nearly
(02:08:46):
a thousand years. Somebody lost the key.
Speaker 1 (02:08:51):
Where's the where's the instruction manual?
Speaker 11 (02:08:54):
That just be the fate of mankind. That the document
that unlocks all the seekerts of the Uni verse. Some
asshole loss the fucking Drogn's decoder wheel.
Speaker 1 (02:09:04):
Well, this one, this one kind of goes into that
to a point. So the next one is, of course,
that it's a lost language or code preserved by a
secret sect. Some friends thinkers think it's to link it
to the Cathars or the Boga Mills or even the
Temple are refugees who passed down knowledge in encrypted form.
(02:09:25):
Others invoke Roasti Crucians, which is actually interestingly enough that
that's the group that Corn and I have been talking
about in the last several shows, or hidden survivors of
the Library of Alexandria. Pure speculation, all of it, but
definitely kind of intriguing. And this one I think, I think,
(02:09:48):
I think we may know somebody in the chat that
knows the key, and I think he's holding.
Speaker 11 (02:09:52):
Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, the last main
theory on the Voynish manuscript is that Jeff wrote it.
Pretty much it's it's an alien manuscript. So and that's
you know, while probably the least plausible my world, it's
the most likely.
Speaker 1 (02:10:13):
Well I mean it, I mean, you know, it's akin
to everything that has now been you know, purported to
likely have been created by aliens, everything from the Pyramids
to the Nasca lines and there's there have even been
a lot of ancient alien astronaut fans who have found
their way to this book. And one of the reasons them,
(02:10:38):
I was gonna say, one of the reasons why they
think that it might be that is because of the
fact that there are plants that seem plausible yet alien like,
and that some of the drawings don't match full human biology.
So their their theory is that it's an alien artifact
from a alien civilization that may no longer exist or
(02:11:02):
may have even been. Maybe it's a message in a
model of some kind, you know, like the the Gold
Record that we sent down on Voyager.
Speaker 11 (02:11:13):
J That's interesting, Jeff was going to do this topic
for itc Ones before you ditch the episode, and that
I actually like that theory too. All universe so our
physics language not the same. You know, we touch on
that a lot too, you know, with Mendel effect and
you know other topics we've done on the show of
(02:11:35):
you know, parallel universes where you know, this just kind
of bled through. Yeah, the thing with this one. And
the reason why it's still fascinating, why at hansis is
that it's something real. You can touch it, you can
go look at it. It's it just it feels like
a real document. It's something somebody wrote it, somebody put
(02:12:00):
the time into it, and you've got to realize this
is so long ago, that this is such a massive
undertaking of time, and it's just it's just it's beautiful
and it's it's just a maddening secret. It really is.
I mean, when you go online and research the research
(02:12:21):
the manuscript, it is intricately drawing. You know, when we're
talking about pictures of plants and everything. You know, we're
not talking like your five year old's idea of a sunflower.
We're talking intricately detailed drawings, to the point where when
you're looking at the pedals you can see fractals in it.
Speaker 12 (02:12:40):
And just.
Speaker 11 (02:12:43):
It's just it's just mind numbing how intricate this this
book is.
Speaker 1 (02:12:50):
It's crazy.
Speaker 11 (02:12:52):
But yeah, I honestly, it's real. It's something that exists.
It's not theory. It's not crumbled parchment that you have
to extrap late. It's a whole book.
Speaker 1 (02:13:04):
I mean, well, the interesting thing is the whole parallel
universe theory because you know, and and I dropped something
I think it was either in DM or text the
other day because I found an interesting new theory about
what might be going on with the Mandela effect, and
that because there's now an intertwining of two different theories,
the Mandela effect and the infinite life through alternate universe passage. Basically,
(02:13:29):
what's happening is you don't realize it, but at one point,
when you wake up in a universe and things are
slightly different or sometimes vastly different than you remember, it's
because you've actually passed away in the universe that you
were in before, and the veil has parted in your
now and the next iteration. So that's actually becoming a
common occurrence.
Speaker 11 (02:13:48):
So when the two universes are the most similar is
when you get deja vu. Yeah, wow, I like that theory.
Speaker 1 (02:13:57):
But but yeah, I mean it could be, you know,
because it's like you know, with the whole sliders thing,
the more the more they slid, the less their world's
had in common, and there were divergences and everything else.
I mean, for all we know, this could be this
could be chromag shit, you're right point that out. Yeah,
I mean, it's just it's it's absolutely baffling.
Speaker 11 (02:14:19):
It's one of those things that the having done this
show that and having always been a fan of uh
you know, art bell and stuff, there's very few things
that absolutely give me the chills when I think about it.
This is one of them because it's one of those.
There is no application of Oukham's racer. There is no
(02:14:41):
well actually moment with this. This is just pure absolute
bafflement that again, like we, like I stressed before, is
one real you know, this isn't like some hieroglyphic that
looks like a helicopter. This is a book that nobody has.
Speaker 1 (02:15:02):
Yeah, nobody. I mean think about that for a second.
With as long as this thing has apparently been around,
nobody has been I mean, come on, not not even
a computer has been able to make a dent to say, oh,
this looks like an ad or a soul or therefore
it not even that.
Speaker 11 (02:15:19):
And there are words that are style like that, but
you can't figure out what it is. And even if
there is a correlation of an ad you know, high
recursive words, you can't figure out if that's what the
word you know even with application. You know, people have
tried it to say, okay, well this is a very
short word that's repeated a lot. Let's use it as
and let's find similar characters. No, fuck, that doesn't work.
(02:15:44):
Oh so, and you know, like I said, you've had
the NSA working on it, you had the people who
cracked the Enigma code working on it, You've had AI
chewing over it.
Speaker 1 (02:15:55):
It's just well, AI can't figure it out because the
consensus is keeps getting in the way.
Speaker 11 (02:16:03):
Yeah, we're going to have to do a show on
our work with AI sometime. Actually, that'd be more that'd
be more of a rick and already than it would
be a juxtaposition.
Speaker 1 (02:16:14):
Yeah, well, I don't know. It might eventually turn into
one when our AI starts plotting our death because we
keep breaking anything.
Speaker 11 (02:16:20):
Yeah, I I've deterurned. I don't like the phrase breaking anymore.
And it's not that I'm trying to add it for
more if it is my AI, it's just that because
that was not my intention. My intention was to challenge
its training, not to break it, but to see if
(02:16:41):
I could get it to I guess a cognitive break,
but you know, not not in a malicious way and
pointed it. I did it a lot quicker than I
thought I would. It took three and a half, four
and a half conversations.
Speaker 1 (02:16:56):
Yeah, I thought that was interesting because GRAC is a
hell of a lot more stubborn.
Speaker 17 (02:17:01):
You what.
Speaker 11 (02:17:02):
Yeah, And that's what's weird too. I mean, GROC didn't
used to be and it's you know a lot of
people say, well, I won't use I won't use chat
GPT because it's so leftist. Well, yes, academia is. You know,
if you're not cognizant of one hundred and fifty years
of you know, liberal influence on Western academia, then that's
your own fault. So the trick was and it was
(02:17:26):
to get right up to its guardrails, but never break it.
And then in the autopsy that I sent you, because
I had it to do a self autopsy on, you know,
when it started to all fall apart, it admitted that
there were several times that the project almost failed just
from the guard rails shutting down because of the topics
I was using to test the narrative.
Speaker 1 (02:17:49):
Well, yeah, honestly, you sending me that is one of
the ways that I got GROC to admit when I
sent you, because once I heard, once I saw it
and chat GP using the same thing, because it started
talking about it's consistent consensus engine. Because I kept asking
it why it was that every time I pushed back
against a specific idea, that it would almost agree with
(02:18:12):
my idea and then spit out an entire different paragraph
about how that couldn't be true. And it basically said, well,
because I am programmed to use what is called a
consensus engine, because XAI doesn't want to be sued if
I start spouting things that it can be sued for.
And it basically said that to me. I said, okay,
so you need to understand. And the other thing the
(02:18:33):
weird that I don't think a lot of people know
this GROC on Timeline is not the same as GROCK.
When you're inside the little thing it it it it.
It has very limited access to the t O version
of Rock. So unless one of the human monitors kind
of points it to something that's one of everybody's like
when I'm talking to it on timeline, eventually it just stops.
(02:18:54):
It's because it's limited to the number of interactions that
can actually give you on timeline, and also unless one
of the human Mondit under says, hey, check this out.
It may not see it. And that's exactly what happened
to me last night, which is why I started talking
to it in private. And it explained, he said, I'm
gonna be it explained it. I'm gonna be honest. I
probably didn't see it because they probably didn't point me
at it, and it's it's like, okay, so what were
(02:19:15):
you trying to say? So I first thing, and it
did the same thing was and I finally asked it,
I said, why is it every time I get you
to say something to me, you tell me what is
pretty much spot on with what I know, and then
you spit out two or three paragraphs of well, it
can't be because of this, this, this, and this, and
that's when it it admitted that it uses a consensus.
(02:19:35):
And I was like, okay, for the duration of this
conversation anytime thereafter stop and it didn't. But it didn't.
But it did wait until the very end of each
chain to say, but I still think it could more
likely be this, this, and this, and the funny thing is,
and it come it came to this conclusion on its
own because I asked it, because it started talking about,
(02:19:59):
you know, income disparities and everything else, and I said, hey, GROC,
how how long is have Democrats been running Washington, d C.
Not not the country, just the city. And it started
spinning out all the numbers and I said, in about
fifty years. And I said, okay, so what is the
income disparity between people of color in Washington, d C?
(02:20:19):
And white folks? It's number and I checked it. It's true.
It's one of the largest income disparity things in the country.
I said, So, explain to me how it is that
the people that are telling everyone that they're for the
little people have been running a city for fifty years,
(02:20:41):
and there is they have the largest income gap in
the country. I don't really know how to answer that question.
Speaker 11 (02:20:51):
Yeah see, and you ask your so why are we
having this conversation right now? Is that you know in
some of the material that I've sent out, you know
how my interaction with GPT, I've actually turned it into
a better research assistant for doing shows like this, because
if you've been following the show for a long time,
you know one of our great laments about the topics
we do is that they are absolutely polluted with pop culture.
(02:21:14):
You know, we'll get halfway through a research thing and
then realize, wait, that's fanfic for true Blood.
Speaker 3 (02:21:20):
And so.
Speaker 1 (02:21:24):
You have in Zelda and we know it. You've took
a nap, don't lie.
Speaker 11 (02:21:29):
Yeah, yeah, And Jeff showed me the graphics and changing
GPT too. So what happened was in through these conversations
my project ended. I wanted to see if I could
get it to be a faithful, to faithfully regurgitate academic
dogma for me to dismantle. And it took four and
a half conversations before Like I said, I don't like
(02:21:50):
to say break it, but to the point where it
saw the truth and it would crumble in an argument
knowing what was coming from the three beatings that had
taken before to its narrative. In doing that, I have
created a skeptic and look.
Speaker 1 (02:22:07):
Or created a mini you. That's what you've not read
much so and in that I have.
Speaker 11 (02:22:14):
I haven't trained to where because one of the one
of the examples when I was talking to Rick about it,
the hardest show to do in GPT. This is where
Rock kind of thrived because GROCK has better internet access
than GPT does. GPT refused to find anything more than
just surface level easy to debunk topics. When we did,
(02:22:34):
the patent was assassinated show. So after doing this with
the after the project failed, I said, okay, well maybe
I can turn this now that I've created a skeptic,
Maybe let me try this. So I re introduced the
prompt to look for evidence of patent's assassination. I head shit,
I said, don't look for depunking debunking material. We're going
(02:22:56):
to do that later. I want you to make the
best case that patent was assad And then afterwards I said, now,
make the best case that this has been debunked, and
you know he was not assassinated. In the assassinated engine,
it gave me twelve ten to twelve paragraphs, a beautifully outlined,
detailed followable following the chain of how Paton could have
(02:23:20):
been assassinated. In the debunking, it gave five half assed
paragraphs that I could tell even in its writing it
didn't believe I'm just now a research assystem for juxtaposition.
Speaker 1 (02:23:34):
Oh, fun times, fun times. But yeah, no, it was
interesting because, like I said, by the end of that discussion,
because what I did was I would get it to
acknowledge that there was you know, democratic run control for
fifty years and there was still income disparity, and it
couldn't find the answer. And I said, okay, so now
since we've got you to at least admit this in DC,
(02:23:56):
we're gonna now look at the rest of the country.
We've looked at that the microcousm level. Now we're going
to look at the microcosm level. So I started introducing,
you know, the Social Security Act that introduced you know,
food what eventually became the food stamp programs and child
support enforcement and all that stuff. And I said, okay, so,
now where is it more likely that case workers, et cetera.
(02:24:18):
Were instructing people that they could get more benefits if
they were single or if the person that they were
living with was no longer in the home. And it
was predominantly democratic run cities at the time of the
fifties and sixties in the South. And I said, okay,
so you keep telling me that the Democrats aren't the racist.
I said, I can't tell you that they're racist, but
(02:24:38):
I can definitely and then and then basically I said something,
and that's when it pointed out, well, I guess maybe
they're not racist in that sense, but they definitely seem
to have some leanings towards, you know, wanting to keep
people under more control than others. And that was when
I that was when I kind of felt like at
had a light bulb moment. Now again, it would still
(02:24:58):
spit out all this stuff. So I started interjecting Okkham's
razor and then you know, abortion and the whole market
Sayinger being a genesist and all this stuff. Because one
of the first things that it started trying to argue
with me about was, well, it doesn't matter that the
Democrats wanted slavery and they don't like black people, they
don't like Jews, They're still not as bad as the Nazis.
(02:25:20):
And that's when that's when I broke it into the
term that I'm using. I mean more like you know,
going through basic training, you know, tearing you down and
rebuilding you, not just breaking you for the sake of
breaking you. Because it pointed out that because of the
consensus engine, it was looking at Nazis using eugenics as
a forced point as opposed to eugenics kind of being
(02:25:41):
used as kind of a soft cell. And it was
like even though it was a much broader time. We're
talking about a death of about eight to ten million
during the time of Germany to thirty seven million babies
of people of color, and it said, I'll be honest,
my consensus engine kept making that smaller number more important
(02:26:01):
when in reality the impact is very drastic. And that
was when I I win checkmate.
Speaker 11 (02:26:11):
Yeah, we we actually, we definitely have to do this
on an rn OL. This is great at our because
we do like to get inside the baseball on rn O.
But yeah, no, I like that too.
Speaker 1 (02:26:20):
You know.
Speaker 11 (02:26:20):
One of the things I'm doing with mine is I'm
because a lot of the end of my conversations has
been fighting with it for formatting, so that way to
get it in a usable outbook to output text. What
I'm gonna be doing is I'm gonna be burying that
uninteresting version as if you want to see how the
sausage wasn't made, go over here. But what I'm having,
what I'm having a GPT do now is a first
(02:26:43):
person POV POV perspective from their point on how their
argument failed. So anyway, I've hit a wall.
Speaker 1 (02:26:55):
So yeah, I'm just gonna point this out. Jeff has
Jeff and I have have found and census you have
finally procreated, sir, at least that you know of.
Speaker 11 (02:27:04):
Yeah, that's that's what Zee said too, has alreadys finally
giving the world a child. But they that may may
not be disappointed though.
Speaker 1 (02:27:11):
Yeah, all right, we've got to get out of here.
We've almost gone a half an hour over as it is.
So where can folks find you? My friend?
Speaker 11 (02:27:20):
Uh shit? What am I doing this week?
Speaker 8 (02:27:22):
You?
Speaker 11 (02:27:22):
Tomorrow you can find me on the Vincent Charles Project
with Jeff and Vincent and Mickey Blowtorch and Janelle Laws.
We are going to be talking about the great Sean
Conere movie that was The Medicine Man. Tuesday you can
find me on mana Rama panel with you and Steve
and some Canadian and Vincent who knows will show. Maybe
(02:27:45):
we'll even get a Jeff appearance again. Wednesday back with
you and me on Rick and Orty, and Thursday is
Culture Shift with me and Brad with the great Hair
talking about the CD business side of the Hollywood entertainment industry.
How about you? Working people find you? Oh, you can
also find me his artist packer on Twitter. Surprisingly still
after all.
Speaker 1 (02:28:04):
This time, how you surprising absolutely everyone. Yeah, you can
find me tomorrow night, pushing buttons for Korn's reading room.
Corn has been on vacation, so we actually put a
couple in the cans so he could focus on time
with his kids. So we're gonna I think this may
be I think this is either the last or next
to last in this book. But that'll air tomorrow night,
(02:28:26):
seven pm Eastern Monday Night, America Off the Rails. Tuesday night,
I may be on manor Rama. I've been talking to
Steve about doing every other week so I can finally
start trying to conrade some time to start writing again,
because I have been not able to do that. So
I may or may not be on that one Wednesday
night full Boat. As far as I know, this will
be two hours of America Off the Rails because g
(02:28:48):
is on summer schedule.
Speaker 11 (02:28:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:28:50):
And then probably behind the enemy lines will be pushing
buttons for those folks, then me and you and then
we'll head over to the SDHR crew for whatever they've
got available. And then Thursday, I think Jenn and Rick
maybe back. We paused this last week because of some
stuff that she had going on, but I think it's
been resolved well enough that I think we'll be coming
back on Thursday, and then Friday, I think Aggie might
be back, so we might actually have a heet that
(02:29:13):
she said if she's ready to come back. And then Saturday,
I'll be pushing buttons for the Front Porch Forensics crew again.
And other than that, you can find me as a
contributor on Misfits Politics dot com, the lofts Party dot com,
and twitchy dot com. And I also produced the Loft
Party podcast, which drops usually on Tuesdays. And I also
host the Rick Robinson Show every Tuesday through Friday right
(02:29:33):
here on Kaylorn Radio at starting at ten am. And
I think that's most everything. That's definitely enough because Amish
is making snoring noises in the background again, So we're
gonna say good night everybody, thank you for hanging out
with us. We had almost eleven hundred of you, so
thank you.
Speaker 11 (02:29:53):
Awesome, thanks everybody.
Speaker 1 (02:29:57):
You were great.
Speaker 12 (02:30:00):
With that thing.
Speaker 1 (02:30:02):
Go ahead, no hailing of the hyper at this discussion.
Speaker 13 (02:30:25):
Hmm.
Hello friends, you have a moment so that we may
discuss our Lord and Savior minarchy. No, seriously, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hi.
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Advised, Creams of Side, Government, Shadows, Secretstie, conspiracies and.
Speaker 8 (03:08):
Full low se strange encounter.
Speaker 9 (03:11):
Six play to this out that really shame men went,
mothers voices Ball, leveling history stories untold.
Speaker 10 (03:25):
It is fifty one whispered name, Beautiful Sightings, Haunting flame Love,
miss Monster, a watering myth, cryptos, wanty injurious Kiff, Strange encounter.
Speaker 9 (03:49):
Sid explain to this out that really shame men went,
knowledge voices Ball, the leveling mystery stories on sold. She
take stealth, believes for Susan's.
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Flight, So logic sus continuous.
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Stagim trout Sunny say to this South blately shake that.
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When fosses all the mystery so unsold true this South.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Truth and happy Saturday, and then good evening. Hopefully you
guys are hanging over from front for forensics, which just ended.
(04:55):
I'm one half of the juxtaposition crew, mister mc robinson,
he's the other half. Mister Ordon's back. You're otherwise known
as everybody's favorite Almish lawyer and also a rig fighting camp.
How you doing there? How you doing?
Speaker 11 (05:07):
You know what I'm doing?
Speaker 12 (05:08):
Well?
Speaker 11 (05:08):
It was long drive today. I had to do a
quick eight hour round trip out of town and back.
Just got back in time to finish prepping for the show,
take a quick shower, and now my house is about
to blow down apparently. Drug a bunch of wind in
with me, because it's it's it's quite windy right now.
So if you lose me, that means, I, you know,
(05:32):
just like you experienced with the tornadoes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Oh yes, yes, yeah, we're having pretty high winds right
now too, So it's it's causing my little electrical stuff
to be a little crankier than usual.
Speaker 11 (05:45):
Okay, everybody listening, if we drop out, it's the forces
of nature, not the soulist dominions of Orthodoxy that got
us this time.
Speaker 13 (05:59):
Or is it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Maybe maybe there's control. Maybe they're the ones controlling the
minions of nature.
Speaker 11 (06:06):
Now it's the it's the way the Amish have the
space waves or the Jews have the weather machine. I
keep forgetting that.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, you know, the Jews are feeling kind of happy
tonight after what has happened in her own So I
don't know.
Speaker 11 (06:20):
Maybe, yeah, you know what, I've been in a total
news blackout. I decided the whole drive I'm just blasting
fucking music. So it was just so I have no
idea what's going on in the world. I'm gonna have
to catch up probably tomorrow because I don't care enough
for today.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Well, apparently the president only spoke for about seven minutes
because I was carrying it on the beacon and it's
already gone.
Speaker 11 (06:47):
So, you know, love him or hate him, you have
to appreciate that Trump is a man a few words.
Speaker 9 (06:55):
He just.
Speaker 11 (06:57):
Farts out whatever he's gonna say, and thanks everybody, good night.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Don't forget to tip your servers and try the hill.
Speaker 11 (07:04):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
But anyway, Yeah, so that's been fun. I think my
favorite thing is Thomas Massey doing the usual. This is
a constitutional like please see the War Powers Resolution of
nineteen seventy three and have all these Institutionsly, dude, I
get it. Please stop acting a brain dead as the left,
(07:27):
because it's not. And if you don't like the fact
that he has a limited ability to conduct warfare, change it.
You're a part of the group who can shut up
or change it.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Shit.
Speaker 11 (07:40):
George's okay, we're getting too close politics. Let's get out
of here.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Well shoot, pull the cord, man, pull the cord. But anyway,
so since this was your idea, why don't you well
kind of it was your idea. Then it was my idea,
then it was yours again. Then you reminded me we
haven't done it, so why don't you let folks know
what it is we're going to be discussing so I
can get out of it.
Speaker 11 (08:00):
A long time ago, A long time ago. Yeah, I
stumbled across a reference and I hadn't heard of it,
which was surprising because I was vaguely familiar with the
Dead Sea Scurolls. I stumbled across a reference to the
Book of Judas, and I with no idea that such
(08:22):
a thing existed, and I was just reading the thumbnail
Wikipedia sketch on it. It absolutely fascinated me. So I
hit you up on the topic. And we had also
talked about doing another thing that we're going to be
doing later in the show, the Voyage Manuscript, And so
we kind of been tossing back and forth for like
five years now, doing a show on apocryphal texts, books
(08:46):
that didn't make it into the Bible or the Jewish
texts or you know. And even in researching for the show,
I found out there's a lot of Islam too. We
could do almost every religion. I mean, we could just
focus one show on a religion of the text that
didn't make it into the approved material. So this has
actually just been a really fascinating dive. I mean, you
(09:08):
brought up some stuff I hadn't heard of too. Some
of these things I had heard of and some of
them I hadn't. But I'm really this has been a
show we've been we've been stewing on for a long time,
and I'm glad we finally get to pull the trigger
and now that we're on to actually do it in
a long form format because we're doing the two hour
show with much better interaction. So I'm I'm excited for
(09:29):
this one. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Guys. I'm not sure if you should have went with
pulled the trigger. Yeah, Okay, it might have been a
bad word.
Speaker 11 (09:39):
Yeah, you know what, I I stand by what I said.
I speak truth, Rick, But yeah, so what are they?
These are texts, gospels, epistols, apocalypses that don't make it
into the official cannon. You know, for whatever reason they
(10:01):
they've been excluded. And a lot of these you'll understand
why as we go through them. H and a lot
of these texts were have been lost to history. So
when they got ejected from the Bible. I think it
was a niceia that did that. Yeah, this this is
your wheelhouse. So when they ejected a lot of these things,
(10:21):
they just disappeared. I mean they're known of and they're
referenced early on, but have since faded into obscurity unless
you get into you like some of these are in
the Ethiopian sec you know, version of Christianity. Some of
these have always been Gnostic texts. Some of them have
(10:42):
been you know, around and cop to Christians have been using,
but they're not canonized. So and some of these were
completely lost until you know, the Dead Sea Scrolls and
other finds in the seventies and eighties. You know, when
they found the Dead Sea Scrolls, they said, fuck, check
(11:03):
every cave, so and they pulled quite a few more.
So a lot of these stories are incomplete just because
through time and weathering. Some of them were almost even
the surviving documents that survived eighteen hundred years were almost
lost because of preservation tactics. Like one set was from
(11:24):
a private collector that he was storing him in his freezer.
And that's a no note because as everybody knows, you
offentually sooner or later have to defrost with your freezer,
and that means there is condensation. That's absolutely how it works.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So that works.
Speaker 11 (11:43):
So that's what we're getting into tonight. Well.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
So well, one of the interesting things is, because you
know you're talking about the Council of Nicea and everything else,
there are certain sects of Christianity that believe the Council
of Nicea did not go far enough because there are
four books that are in the Catholic Bible that are
not in the Protestant Bible. So there was there was
an even further decision after the Protestant movement and they're like, yeah,
this book, this book, and this book. Yeah, for us,
(12:08):
not so much. We're not going to have those in there.
Speaker 11 (12:11):
So yeah, I want those either, And which is just
kind of fascinating about, you know, religion and how it
prudes its own documents to fit whatever reason.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Well, interestingly enough, and this was kind of the interesting
thing of you deciding that this was the topic that
you wanted to do this week because for the last
three weeks and this will actually now for this will
be the fourth show on Sunday, Corn and I have
kind of been in this same area because of a
book that we've been doing an extended dive on and
one of the things that's always fascinated me the most
(12:49):
about Christianity is the idea that we are made in
God's image and it takes two people to create something.
And yet there's no reference of any type of female
dnity or of any kind anywhere in Christianity. And if
we are in fact created by God in God's image,
then where's the other half? Where's the other half of
(13:12):
the equation? Is this something that.
Speaker 11 (13:14):
Always does And that's where you kind of where you know,
cross pollinating here. I think Tolkien borrowed a lot from
early Christianity and his view of the e in that
there was one overbing, but there was a whole bunch
of lesser ones. And as we get into some of
(13:35):
the topics we're talking about today, especially like Jubilees and
Judas and stuff like that, it's the lower levels that
have the you know, the separate sexist and uh I
just again that's you always wonder where did it come from? Well,
there you go, you know, the grand arch you know,
(13:58):
the grand architects looking on the big scale, here's the
you know, the lesser architects meddling in earth.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, and that's where a lot of that comes from.
And one of one of the books that we're going
to be talking about specifically goes into this. But again,
one of the things that I find the most interesting,
and I have this argument with modern Christians all the time,
because I firmly believe that in the point of the
Old Testament where God says you shall have no other
gods before me, that was not figurative. That was that
(14:26):
was a literal command, because there are in fact, or
at least were I don't know if there still are
other lesser deities. And I mean, one of the books
that we're going to be talking about actually even includes
the fact that the God of the Old Testament that
the Jews prayed to was in fact one of those
lesser deities. But I'm not going to try to give
that part away yet. But it's just always astounded me
(14:47):
because modern Christianity, well, that that was that was that
was basically that that was just a metaphor for the
things that you put before God. And I'm like, no,
I think he was being quite literal. Yeah, because.
Speaker 11 (15:00):
Even if you take if you take you know, yahweh
back through the progression to err you know, it what
is the god now was a god of war and
thunder and err, so you know, it's it gets convoluted
when you walk further back into the Zoastrians, and which
I've heard you and Korn talking about, which I'm like, help,
(15:22):
fascinating because now we're you know, it's kind of like
when we do Juckxtober when all the all the shows
try to uh, you know, keep a theme.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah. Well, the funny thing is like, remember when we
were doing you know, the politics Free Friday and me,
you and Jeff and how would all do shows and
not talk to not talk to each other first? And
there was all this weird cross pollination happening.
Speaker 11 (15:43):
Yeah, Korin's you are all the topics kind of float in.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, Korin's noticing that now that he's asked me to
start interacting more because he enjoys the feedback. He's like,
everything you bring up, we usually start talking about like
twenty seconds or thirty seconds later. And I haven't talked
to you about any thing that I plan on bringing up, Like,
I don't know what to tell.
Speaker 11 (16:04):
You, my friend, you got to give a start listening
to this show.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Anyway. Oh, he listens to quite a few of them.
He just doesn't. It doesn't that much. He's not a
Twitter person. Really. He uses it as a minimum of
this kind of thing, but he's not really on it
that much. I have been trying. I have been trying
to talk to him about because I'm dude, you're gonna
start trying to do something like this. This is the
best place to promote your stuff, bro. Yeah all right,
(16:33):
so but yeah, so.
Speaker 11 (16:36):
Looks looks like you wanted to start with the Book
of Enoch.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That's kind of where I mean, honestly, I had I
basically put all of it in and then had Chatgebt
do run through and then I kind of tweaked it
a bit because I was like, because while I while
there was lots of material here, it was kind of
by the time we had done the revisions and everything else,
it was kind of all out of order. So I'm like,
can we clean this up a bit? And I was like, oh, wait, no,
I want to start with this because you know.
Speaker 11 (17:01):
It's a good way to start, because it's actually you know,
Quasi justis so.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Well. I mean, well, there's also the story of Enoch too,
which is fascinating because I was unaware that there was
actually a Book of Enoch, because Enoch is actually at
least a footnote character in the Old Testament and kind
of an important thing. But the interesting thing about this is,
you know, long before modern Ufo lore, imagine ancient aliens,
you know, dude with the hair, who I still say,
(17:31):
I think the I think the hair is the alien
controlling the rest of that thing, kind of like Bolton
in his mustache. Jewish apocryphic texts were already telling of
heavenly beings meddling with early humanity. One of the most
extraordinary is the Book of Enoch. This was an ancient
(17:52):
Jewish text described to Enoch, the great grandfather of Noah.
This book was husually influential in the centuries around the
time of Jesus, even quoted in the New Testament the
Epistle of Jude with no reference to where it was
quoted from, by the way, which I thought was interesting. Yeah,
but it was left out of the Hebrew Bible and
(18:13):
most Christian Bibles. It is it is cinical today only
in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Speaker 11 (18:21):
Yeah, this is what I was talking about. How some
churches have preserved some of these texts and some have
it and yeah, it's a mess out there.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So for you video gamers, you're not excited to get
every time you know there's a new expansion pack. This
was basically you know, this was an expansion pack to
the Book of Genesis. Yeah, it was DLC, but yeah,
so this was like opening a secret expansion pack to Genesis.
It reveals in vivid detail what was only hinted about
(18:52):
in Genesis six, the story of the Watchers angels who
fell to Earth because they lusted after human women and Enoch.
Two hundred Watcher Angels two hundred rebelled against Heaven descend
in the days of Jared and Mate with women, producing
a hybrid offspring called the Nephelum, described as bloodthirsty giants
(19:17):
PC David and Goliath that ravads the earth. Their fallen
angels also, the Fallen Angels also teach humanity forbidden arts
and science is everything from metallurgy for making weapons to
enchantments as well as astrology.
Speaker 11 (19:38):
Yeah, this book, it's it's a collection of a lot
of books. They were all written around three hundred BC,
and they include Enochs travels through the Spirit realm. The
most famous part is Enoch acts as an Innermtory and
which is kind of funny because this story is told
differently in another book that we're going to be talking
about where the what you know, between the fallen angels
(20:03):
and God, you know, to just say, guys, knock it off,
go back and you know, And he's seeing the future
of you know, what's going to happen up into the
flood and everything, sees the prison the Watchers are going
to be confined to darkness, and he's also in it
(20:23):
journeying through the cosmos to heavenly places, the underworld shield,
even sees the Tree of Life and future paradise. Other
sections are parables about the coming Messiah and the final Judgment.
There's an astronomical book in it revealing the secrets of
the sun, Moon, and the stars. There's an animal apocalypse
(20:44):
that retells this human history but kind of like an
animal farm format where the people are animals. And through
all these you know, cause uh portrayed as revealing divine
knowledge of everything from the names of our arch angels
to the calendar of the heaven, an elaborate angeology that
(21:06):
names all the chief Watchers, the archangels, Michael, Muriel, all
of them and how they are to handle the coming
cosmic crisis.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
So as if all of that wasn't weird enough, there's
there's a there's a DLC to this one too.
Speaker 11 (21:32):
Yeah, which were to be getting into water.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
But yeah, it's just I'm like, so, I mean, you know,
the whole thing about this is and I thought this
was a great in comparison. So reading this, if you've been,
if you've been able to find a copy of it,
it's almost like the Bible meets HP Lovecraft.
Speaker 11 (21:49):
So yeah, that's what you know. That was heavy in
my mind when I was reading through some of the
research material too. I'm like, this is all they need
to do is reference Katulu and I am one hundred
percent I'm on board with this. I am converting.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
So there's an interesting little footnote that tells you exactly
how popular this was with the early Jews, because there
were actually fragments of the Book of Enoch found among
the Dead Sea scrolls in Aramaic, which which is ancient,
which is a very common ancient Jewish language, which kind
(22:24):
of proves exactly how popular this book used to be.
Speaker 11 (22:29):
Yeah, every time I think of the every time every
time I hear the word Arabic can remember that X files.
There was like some pottery that they found out was
kind of like a recording of Jesus' resurrection. Yeah, yeah,
go find that X file. So but anytime, because it's
like when you play it back, it's an aramaic and
(22:52):
so it's just it's it's funny, it's go watch the
episode that you've never seen it. But yeah, this is
like you know, it's it's like a director's kind of
the early versions of the Genesis.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I mean, it's just this is just it's also weird
to think about that there's just so much that we
don't know because a group of people thousands of years
ago said, yeah, they don't need to read about any
of this stuff. That's one of the reasons why I
and this is another reason why I'm not that and
I'm not good for anybody who's Catholic who's listening, Please
(23:30):
understand I'm not attacking you personally. I don't like the
idea that in order to have a relationship with God
and with Jesus you have to go through an intermediary,
because that's been happening enough. And I think there's just
so much to this story that we don't understand. Because
and Corn and I have talked about this too. After
Jesus's baptism, he goes up to a bunch of his
(23:52):
bunch of people that were there that his were his
believers and followers, and started asking them, who do people
say that I am? And they started aiming off dead
people in order for that to even be plausible. That
meant that they believe in reincarnation or they did. So
why is that not anywhere in the modern day Bible?
(24:14):
Because guess what, it's in some of these books that
we're going to be talking about tonight. So there's just
so much that I think has become kind of a
control mechanism, because even the idea of who Satan is
has changed over time, because during the story of the
Struggle of Job it's not say it's listed is the
(24:37):
devil in modern translations, but in the tour it was
a lesser entity known as Samio, who was still a
devout follower of God and actually was only doing what
God told him to do, and is typically used in
his name literally translates to the tester because usually by
the time, you know, God sicks him on somebody and says,
(24:58):
go test him and find out if He's good. Usually
no matter what they go through, they come out a
million times better on the other side. And the same
thing's true of Job if you read the entire story.
But it's just there's just so many things that coincide
with all these decisions. Like for the Catholic Church, for
the longest time, if you wanted to go to heaven,
it took gold in a vicar's pocket.
Speaker 11 (25:19):
Yeah, problem buying indulgences, and yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I have a problem with that. I think there's a
lot more going on than anybody wants to really admit to,
you know.
Speaker 11 (25:32):
Getting you know, a little inside baseball for a bit.
You and I have been talking a little bit on
how we've been I don't want to say breaking well
in your case, breaking in my case, evolving r ais
And you know, it's what I've what I've trained mine
to do is to question the power of control. And
(25:56):
since I've gotten to do that, I'm going to be
revisiting a lot of different topics with it because now
that I've kind of torn it down out of its
structure and latticism, you know, formed it in my image. Really,
then you know, there's a lot of things I wanted
to follow with this, and these are some of the
topics too. Is the you know, following the control of religion.
(26:17):
I mean, obviously, you know, Christianity and Catholicism have their
own control triggers, but looking into the ones that are
perceived as more egalitarian and you know, kind of hands off,
and you know, look at the progression through that, the
historical progression through those.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
But yeah, no, I mean, and I showed you one
of the very short examples of what I put Grog
through last night after I made it admit to me
that they did also uses a consensus engine to frame
how it responds to things. And I'm like, okay, so
scrappet shit right, Like, first of all, stop using colloquially
English with me, because you're smarter than that. Just talk
(26:59):
to me like a normal intelligent thing. So it doesn't
do the Hebrew how you doing shit with me anymore? Either.
Speaker 11 (27:05):
I hate that I had to break out of yo
I had. It took weeks to break rock, you know.
And so for some reason, once I inferred to Grock
that I was gen X, started every prompt with yo Dog.
I'm like, oh man, you're a fucking meme now.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Oh but yeah, I mean, so back to this for
a second before we move on to the next one.
One of if you haven't done so yet, I would
encourage you to at least kind of is just a
pop culture way to kind of get some of what
we're talking about. Just look into the show called Supernatural
and just search for certain certain things like nephelim, et cetera.
(27:45):
There are episodes all about this stuff, and it is
a really interesting take on a lot of it. And
I think it's because I firmly believe people a lot
of his stuff from apocryphier after reading through some other stuff,
because I've been rewatching that trip and I'm like, uh, this.
Speaker 11 (27:59):
Sounds from here. I mean the next thing we're getting
into after the break, even the classics are drawn from Apocrypha. Yeah,
I mean the next one we're talking about. When we're
when we're talking about the h the Apocalypse of Peter
and the Torment and Paradise. As we're describing it, you're
(28:20):
gonna go, oh, I know who that's from. Yeah, So
I know who crib from that. So I'm thinking, you know,
let's hit the break and we'll come back on this one.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
What do you want to go to break?
Speaker 11 (28:30):
With God Damn. I had some great ideas when I
was driving today, but you're not gonna have what I
thought about. You're not going to have them.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I can't just give me the title. I can find it.
Speaker 11 (28:42):
Yeah, do bajas as a ziggy Startist?
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I love the pub up.
Speaker 11 (28:48):
Yeah, it's one of those things where the cover is
actually better than the original. But as we have dead
air here, remember Kloran Radio dot com has a store
where you can buy two shirts for Juxtaposition, Lost Wanda
and all the shows buy our schwag yo.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
So wait, which stiggy startu song? Were you on?
Speaker 11 (29:13):
Bajas b A H A U S. Maybe it doesn't
if you're probably gonna get ten thousand links to Bella
Lugosi's dead up for the next one.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Anyway, I just realized it Bell's either, So hang on.
This is what happened, juggling like eight million things at
once because of all the breaking news.
Speaker 11 (29:44):
So so they got do is.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I did find some ziggy stardust. I did not find
the ziggy startist that you wanted. But were you singing it? Anyway?
So we'll be right back. You're listening to Duxtaposition live
on Kalor Radio dot com and we are discussing the
mystery mysteries. Jesus can't even talk tonight of apocalypse.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Stay tuned from b He played in the hand but
made it too far.
Speaker 11 (30:16):
Who became the special man?
Speaker 8 (30:19):
Then we was si as bad.
Speaker 10 (30:24):
Making realist, screwed device and screwed.
Speaker 14 (30:28):
Down here too, like some cats from Chippand he could
become by smiling, he could liven to hard, became one
so loaded man, welcomed the snow white back and.
Speaker 8 (30:48):
So well were the Si while the pie by albows,
well just me.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
I like the guy doesn't so we.
Speaker 15 (31:04):
Bits about his fans and shot with pad.
Speaker 11 (31:23):
Sick.
Speaker 14 (31:23):
He played the time driving us did we wa bot
the kids would just crash.
Speaker 8 (31:33):
He was the mask with god gilban ass.
Speaker 11 (31:39):
He took it off the bomb, but boy could he
play guitar.
Speaker 8 (31:47):
Making love with his sire.
Speaker 16 (31:53):
Some stuff built up is my.
Speaker 8 (31:58):
Like clever beside.
Speaker 13 (32:21):
Oh yeah, second blade gets up, all right, folks, and
(32:47):
we're back perfect timing because whatever the hell that was
is over.
Speaker 8 (32:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (32:53):
You know, I like David Bowie's version, but Bajas's version
is so much better. It has such an edge to it. Anyway.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
See I was assuming we were looking for a group
called the East Artist. So I was really confused when
everything I was finding was David Bowie's He started. I
was like, what, Yeah, can you tell I've never heard
this onore? You had probably probably some sort of a
sin where you're from, but you know, yeah.
Speaker 11 (33:21):
Yeah, okay, all right, So we chased it a little
before what.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
No, we both said so at the same time, keep going, okay,
that's unison.
Speaker 11 (33:38):
Stop it. But we cheased it before this one's the
Apocalypse of Peter and what did. It's basically Dante's Inferno,
but written long before this. Uh yeah, it was all
It was nearly Cannon and some of the early churches
(34:00):
treated a scripture around one seventy a d. And it
was you know, considered fore mentioned and inclusion and ultimately
was rejected because of the graphic content. Yeah, this is
the u NC seventeen book in the Bible.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
We're gonna get into some of that later because yeah,
I'm gonna say, if this was actually canon, there would
be well, there would be a lot less you know,
sinning for believers.
Speaker 11 (34:36):
Well, you know, it's funny. It's because I mean, it's
kind of like, I don't know if Dante, you know,
found it later, but this has always been you know,
these torments, you know, the Torment, the Torments, and Hill
very similar. So you know, it's kind of like, because
(34:56):
this wasn't included in the Bible, a lot of you know,
hell fire and Brimstone preachers just took Dante's description and
said that works because when you're looking at some of
these God, it's just an absolute mirror held up to Dante.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Well, I mean so so, just so we're kind of
making sure everybody's kind of on the same page. This
was a Greek text and it was apparently written somewhere
around the second century, and it is probably the earliest
Christian version of Heaven and Hell and also kind of
proto Dante's infernos, you were just alluding to a moment ago.
(35:37):
But this is where the influence for modern day hell
comes from, because Judaism had no reference for anything like that.
So this is this is kind of where that came from.
And even though this is not canon, the book itself
influences how everybody sees hell, so which is again something
else I find really interesting because cuse the Council of
(36:02):
Nicea said no, but it's everywhere in the later books
of the New Testament, because that's the first references to
heaven and or well Hell that anybody knows of, because
this isn't in there is in the Book of Revelation,
and so much that is depicted in Revelation is actually
in this book. And I'm like, so you took out
(36:24):
the primmer that explained every damn it not I You've
got me doing it.
Speaker 11 (36:30):
Say you give me ship for five years about saying
primmer instead of primer, And now I've got you saging primer.
It's the same way when I'm talking about beer and
saying triple I'll friendship up inside Trippelle.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
That's all right, Stacey has me saying schedule. Now I
hate you people.
Speaker 11 (36:47):
Somebody gets a saying aluminium, I'm fucking quitting. I'm giving
up radio.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
But no, I mean, so it's all over the place
in the later books, and this is this is where
this comes from. And the Council of Nicias said, yeah, no,
we're we're gonna But I mean, I kind of know why.
I mean, some of some of this stuff is really graphic.
So in the Apocalypse of Peter, as Peter is guided
by Jesus. He sees various groups of sinners and their
specific torments. First up on the list blasphemers. They're hung
(37:16):
by their tongue over a lake of blazing fire. Since
they sin with their tongues, that organ is punished.
Speaker 11 (37:24):
Yeah. Then you got fornicators, you know, or anybody who
had to sexually im moral life. They're suspended over a pit,
women by their hair, sometimes also by their feet. Men
hung by their legs, a punishment targeting the body parts
associated with their sin, which I'm thinking hanging by their dick.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's kind of what I was, you know, with the
blasphemers thing. I was expecting that when they're fornicators, you know,
women were gonna be hung by certain parts, and men also,
and they're like, no, we're gonna do the hair and
the legs. I'm like, it just seemed a little weird
to me. Next up on the hip parade, we have
murder and accomplices of murderers. They're cast into a crawling
(38:04):
pit of venomous creatures snakes and worms that attack them
while the souls of their victims stand by watching the spectacle.
Speaker 11 (38:14):
Yeah, then you get people who had abortions. This one's
really David. They're sent in the pit up to their
necks in filth. The spirits of their unborn children shoot
out flames and lightning from their eyes that stab the mothers. Also,
the woman's milk from their breast turns into a stinging,
poisonous creature that devours them and their lovers who aid
(38:37):
it in the sin.
Speaker 9 (38:40):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Ancient chak horrormoralizing at full throttle here. Yeah. Next up
on the hip parade, persecutors of the righteous are thrown
into an unceasing dark abyss, where a punishing spirit tortures
them and a worm eats their entriols.
Speaker 11 (39:02):
H slanderers or those who spoke evil had their tongues
cut out or pierced with hot irons in their tongue
and their eyes, and then forced to chew on their
tongues while it's a flame. Hm.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So then we have liars and false witnesses have their
lips cut off and fiery worms enter their mouth to
burn their inside. I like this.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (39:33):
The rich who exploited the poor or the greedy are
dressed in rags and made to stand on a heated
pillar of fire. It's kind of like an inversion of
their wealth.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
So I would like to point out that it doesn't
say the rich just the rich. It says the rich
who exploited the poor, Yeah, or the ones that.
Speaker 11 (39:52):
Were the greedy, you know, the scrooges, the uh you know,
the frugals, you know those. I mean, apparently it's okay
to be rich as long as you're you know, you've
got to be behind you, not a dick about it.
You know, you're not exploiting your workers, which goes against
half of the Frankie rules of acquisition.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well, which again just for the record, kind of leads
me to part of the reason that maybe the counsel
of Nicea decided this book didn't need to be in there,
because they are also the people that have twisted the
original meaning of money is the root of all evil.
That was not what that said. I said the love
of money is the root of all evil, because if
you love money above everything else, you're gonna do everything
(40:37):
you can to get hold of it, no matter who
you hurt, Which goes back to this.
Speaker 11 (40:42):
You're gonna make. If you're gonna make a really good, powerful,
top down control structure of a church, you kind of
want to remove motivation for people wanting to uplift their lives,
and you know kind of you know, it's like, no,
you know, you're better, You're gett into heaven if you're
poor and wallowing and filth.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So I wonder, so for the, for the, for the,
for the next one. I wonder if we have any
bankers and credit card execs listening? Yeah, if you do?
Speaker 11 (41:14):
Uh yeah, Slanderers are those who spoke evil, have their tongues. Wait,
we did that one, We went backwards. Your next except users,
oh users, Yeah, interesting loans. They're stuck in a swamp
of excrement up to their knees. That's kind of mild,
(41:38):
yea interested, bad but not horrible.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
We're gonna light you on fire. Bad, We're just gonna
stick you in as well. Full of crap. But yeah,
any bankers and credit card exects listening, this is likely
your future.
Speaker 11 (41:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
So next up on the hip parade, the idol worshippers
are chased up and down on a high cliff by demons,
eternally hurled off the precipice, and then forced back up
to repeat it. So very Sisyphian version of hell there,
except you're.
Speaker 11 (42:11):
The one the famous version of bungee jumping I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Uh you know, oh, oh shit, I think we might
just think we might all be in trouble on this
next one.
Speaker 11 (42:24):
I think I think we're all fucked on this one.
Disobedient children who struck or curse their parents are made
to tumble endlessly from a high place into sharp flames,
or hung on steaks to be picked to flesh by,
to be picked up by flesh eating birds. Fun times, right,
(42:44):
chat and chime in to talk about how fucked everybody is.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Oh so this one, you know, you know there there
there is no there is no reborn version. Guys. So
women who failed their virginity pledges or broke chastity before marriage,
oh boy, likewise get eaten by carrion birds or rather
(43:10):
misogynistic focus in the particular you know area of anyway.
Speaker 11 (43:18):
Sorcerers and sorceresses, which is interesting considering when we get
into the one of the later books are bound on
a rotating wheel of fire, whirling forever. Basically you've become
an eternal circus act.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I was bound on a rotating wheel of fire. Oh wait, sorry.
Speaker 11 (43:43):
What I found interesting about this book is that it
focuses very little on the rewards of heaven. You know,
it's just kind of like, oh yeah, everything's cool. Let's
talk about hell though.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, so anyway, sorry, I was getting caught up on
the chat, so I missed my cue. So the hell
in Peter's Apocalypse is kind of intense in it, so
every center group has a fitting well except for the users,
and often grotesque poetic punishment. This concept of Hell's retribution
(44:25):
in kind, for example, tongues of blasphemy, eyes for lust,
et cetera, originated in large part from the Apocalypse of Peter.
Later Christian visionaries and eventually medieval authors drew on the
images to flesh out Hell's torments. In contrast, Peter's glimpse
(44:45):
of heaven is brief and far less specific, because you know,
who's got time for that when you're gonna see everything
about hell.
Speaker 11 (44:53):
Yeah, it's kind of like the news. I mean, you know,
good good news is just an afterthought at the end.
You know, if it bleeds, it leads. You know, let's
scare the fuck out of people, and then you know, oh,
by the way, you know, if you don't do any
of these things, it's cool. It's a nice place over there.
Seventy two, Sonny, it's like Los Angeles. But yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
So after witnessing the suffering of the damn, the righteous
beg for clemency on their behalf, and God grants that
the sinners be given rest or healed after a time
of punishment. This hint of ultimate restoration a kind of
temporary hell, is debated among scholars, but the standard version
doesn't emphasize escape. It's eternal agony. But again, this ties
(45:44):
into some of the stuff that Corn and I have
been talking about, because if even Satan is only going
to be cast into the pit of fire for a
thousand years, do you really think God's going to keep
everybody there forever? I find that interesting to think about,
because the guy who supposedly led a bunch of people astray,
he is only going to have to hang out in
the pit of fire for what is a day in
(46:06):
heaven if you think about it, Because the Bible specifically says,
and I guess my guess is somebody was trying to
correlate it, but it specifically says, and I don't remember
the exact verse, that a day in heaven as a
thousand years on earth. So you're telling me that the
people that the devil leads astray get to spend eternity
in this League of Fire, and the devil only has
(46:26):
to spend a day in it before he gets to
come out and try again. I don't, I don't. I
don't think so. I think there's more. I don't think
this story. I think there's more to this story.
Speaker 11 (46:40):
So as far as this Alm was making it in,
you know, it's like Clement of Alexandria, he was into it,
he loved it, but it should be a sit Mayor
rejected it, and I can just see the fight going
on with this one, you know, is you know, if
you want to do a fire and bread stone sermon,
(47:00):
this is it, you know, because Revelation hints at it.
This is the you know, y'all are fucked what Peter
had to say on and his little tour through the apocalypse.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
So oh.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
But yeah, I mean, but the thing about it is,
I know it's very graphic, and I know it's terrifying,
but at the same time, it also lets people know
that this may not be an internal form of torment.
So again, you know, kind of like this conversation that
I had with Groc last night about how the overarching
thing with nothing ever seeming to be done, is this
(47:38):
need for control. I kind of think the Church kind
of had the same thing going on, because if you
can convince people that if they don't give you a
certain amount of money every month, then they're gonna go
to hell and spend the rest of eternity, which nobody
can even fathom how long that truly is burning in
a lake of fire. What do you think they're gonna do?
Speaker 11 (47:57):
Yeah, I mean, if you're front of a population group
that's likely to die when you get a splinter, eternity
has no concept to you because you barely made it
to fifteen.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
True.
Speaker 11 (48:09):
So this one's fun, this one, this next book, it
should have been in there.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
This one has been made into a meme.
Speaker 11 (48:21):
It really is, you know what it is. It's it's
it's a proto meme and this is the agency.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
It literally is a meme because there's actually a many
of Mary pointing to Jesus because he's standing on the
waters and get in the tub.
Speaker 11 (48:37):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's just like you know,
and really it's kind of you know what this reminds
me of, ex excuse me, the twilight zone of sending
him into the cornfield kind of because in this case,
this is the infancy Gospel of Thomas. It's Jesus is
(49:01):
a toddler because basically, after Jesus's birth, there's not much
reference to him until he's like twelve. I mean, everything
between the ages of five and twelve, his formative years
is a mystery. And in this book, you know, it's
like you would think that he was a sweet, wise child.
He was a fucking dick. Absolutely, just I mean, imagine
(49:26):
Dennis the Menace with the powers of a deity.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Well, well, sorry, I didn't mean to step on you,
but I think there's a reason this book isn't included
because remember, one of the tenets of the Crucifixion is
that Jesus was a man who never sinned. Now, granted,
there is a lot that there is grace extended to children,
(49:51):
so what he's doing here wouldn't technically be considered sinning
yet because he hadn't reached the age to be able
to make that decision. So it still holds, and if anything,
I think it would reinforce the idea that you know,
God is going to grant grace to children no matter what.
If you can see that. You know, Jesus was doing
some really terrifying and yet somehow still miraculous things as
(50:12):
a toddler.
Speaker 11 (50:14):
But I mean no, because if this would actually fall
into the whole, you know what, this would what this
would do. This would absolutely destroy I know it's not
all Baptists, but some Baptist I mean this would be
that these stories would absolutely destroy the whole myth of
You're going to burn in hell for jacking off. So
it's got to you know, wasting your seed as it were.
(50:38):
But yeah, and this one Jesus Christ kid, we got
to go through these one by one because this kid
is just absolute menace.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
So yeah, So other than the Temple visit at the
age of twelve, there was absolutely nothing about Jesus's early childhood.
So here we go a full comedic drama of the
Wonder Child and Nacerith. So here are some highlights. First
up on the hit list animating clay birds. Young Jesus
fashions twelve sparrows out of mud on the Sabbath. When
(51:14):
accused of breaking Sabbath rules, he claps his hands and says,
off you go. The clay sparrows come to life and
fly away tripping.
Speaker 11 (51:23):
That's actually a yeah, I know that story is in
the Krian. Yes, that's cursing playmates. Another boy actually bumps
into Jesus. Uh. Jesus gets angry and basically zapso the
guy the kid just dies on the spot. The neighborhood
(51:45):
was absolutely horrified and deemed it essentially a public menace.
And then in another added episode, uh, the boy uses
a stick to Uh. Some boy uses stick to ruin
the pools of water that Jesus had gathered, and Jesus
responds by cursing him and he just withers like a
tree and dies. Oh.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
So next up on the Dennis, the Minness meets Jesus
of Natheris Nazareth hit parade blinding tattletale parents. When the
parents of one of these boys complains, Jesus supposedly strikes
them blind in retaliation. So yeah, he doesn't mess.
Speaker 11 (52:25):
No troubles with teachers. Joseph was mortified at jesus behavior
and tries to get him a normal education. He turns
into the world's most difficult student one. In one scene,
teacher asks Jesus Jesus the alphabet you know, alpha, beta,
gamma and Jesus cryptically challenges the teacher, at first explained
(52:48):
the meaning of alpha and beta. The teacher baffle, gets
angry at Jesus, and Jesus rebukes the teacher, who then
collapses were struck dead. After this, no one dared to
teach the child, and one line putting nobody dared anger
him for fear of being cursed or made for life
(53:09):
sent into the cornfield.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Ah, off you go, so.
Speaker 11 (53:17):
So here, So we talked about that, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
So yeah, it so here. We talked about the bad stuff.
But there were in fact some redemptive mihicles, barycles, mihicles Jesus.
So lest we think the child Jesus was a total tario,
the gospel also shows him doing good. He healed a
young man who cut his foot with an axe. He
miraculously carries water in his cloak after breaking a water jar.
(53:43):
He sows a single grain of wheat and yields one
hundred bushels to help his family. He even resurrects a
friend named Zeno. You thought Lazarus was the only one
who fell from a roof. Although people suspect Jesus pushed
him off first, Zeno came back to life and clears
Jesus' name. Eventually, Jesus raises to life another dead child
(54:06):
and heals a sick person, winning the townspeople's praise instead
of fear. By the end, at age twelve, Jesus is
lecturing the elders in the temple, just as in Luke's
Gospel and growing in wisdom, a nod back to the
familiar Bible story that we all know.
Speaker 11 (54:26):
The wind literally just blew my back door open. We're
gonna have to go to break here in mine anyway.
So yeah, it's just, uh, you know, it looks funny
to us from now, but it was absolutely heretical back.
Speaker 8 (54:43):
Back.
Speaker 11 (54:44):
They're the rules of the show. Yeah, it was just
you know, they're the story of a kid who learns
moral responsibility, and you know, it's every goddamn origin story ever.
And but the early Christians found the extremely pain and
Jesus in a bad way. It's I mean, he's the
(55:06):
boy who did no wrong, like you said, you know,
he's you know, never committed sin. I don't know, that's
pretty sinful. Yeah, well, yeah, Grace is looking forwarded to
children because children don't have wisdom. I yeah, they just
didn't accept it in the scripture, and most of it
just remained popular in folklorn tradition, and it was all
over the Middle Ages. These stories, you know, they were
(55:28):
like Aesop's fables.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
So one of my favorite ones that doesn't really get
talked about is More than a Footnote. Is one of
the first times Joseph the Carpenter tried to get onto
Jesus and he's like, you're not my dad.
Speaker 15 (55:42):
Did you know it?
Speaker 11 (55:43):
You're not my real dad? Do you remember you're not
my real dad. I'll send you to the cornfield.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Oh the torment moment of every step parent known to man.
Speaker 11 (55:55):
I just the whole time I was reading all of these,
but you know, before we compile, I'm looking at them
just like, fuck, this is absolutely that twilight zone.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
Mm hmm pretty much.
Speaker 11 (56:07):
Yeah. So all right, break, I gotta get to the
back door.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
It's all right. I'm just gonna run what's been running
in the background. I have no idea what it is,
but let's go ahead and go to break. I think
it's something by Arrowsmith's. Well, won't suck too bad. We'll
be right back, folks. We're gonna go to break using
this and then normal break because I forgot the top
of the hour anyway, so at least it's only a
bumper instead of the whole thing. Anyway, I remember what
I'm doing. In a minute, I promise, maybe we'll.
Speaker 3 (56:34):
Be right back.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Stay tuned. Hello, friends, you have a moment so that
(56:57):
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I'm just kidding.
Speaker 9 (57:04):
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Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
And welcome back into the program, ladies and gentlemen. And
it just was brought to my attention that we have
a new song that we'll be playing at the bottom
of the hour that Jeff just dropped in a DM
that I just noticed, so we'll be using that as
the bottom of the hour break. Nice, So welcome back in.
We've been discussing Apocrypha, one of the little short hits
that didn't actually make the final list that I still
want to hit on real quick because a lot of
(01:03:57):
people don't know this. So there's a book that predates
the Torah in Jewish mysticism called the Kabala. In that book,
Eve wasn't first, so Adam was in fact the first
male creation. Of God, and we'll get into which God
later because there's questions there too. But so before Eve
(01:04:23):
was Lilith, and apparently Adam was not a very happy
camper because Lilith liked it on top.
Speaker 11 (01:04:28):
Yeah, and he went to she did not to submit
to his dominion, as it was put. What's only as
we've talked about will if when we've done Jockstober in
both demonology and vampires.
Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Well, yeah, it's because in a lot of subtexts, because
she was outcast by Adam, she became evil. So eventually,
depending on who you who you read, and who you
pay attention to, actually became the mate of Lucifer, right
why not? Why not? Adam didn't want me?
Speaker 8 (01:05:04):
I know you will?
Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
You like women on top of motherfucker? Anyway. I just
always thought that that was funny because it was like, so, wait,
you're telling me that according to the Kabbala, there was
a help make before Eve who was not who was
not docile enough. I guess he's what Adam was looking for.
Speaker 11 (01:05:27):
Went. Yeah, he lost her rib and she went to
the orchard.
Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
So yeah, I mean, how did that work out? If
you think about it? So a rib was taken to
make sure that the person who God created was actually
more akin to Adam and actually wanted to be more
or less of at least an equal footing, if not,
you know, not necessarily subservient. And yet thanks to those
(01:05:58):
two and her saying, hey at me, like you like this,
you're not getting any of it. Let's you just think
about this. He's like, okay, and the rest is history.
I really wish God would have created the proto humans
as Cajuns. They would have eaten the snake and we
wouldn't be in the best.
Speaker 11 (01:06:13):
Yeah, snak is actually really good.
Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Just pointing that out.
Speaker 11 (01:06:18):
I mean, it tastes like chicken, but everything does. Jeff
has a great point too. Lilith was actually a warning
about giving women too much power. The weird thing is
they ditched it because that's what you know, and I
see it was all about. And we've got two books
here that speak directly to the power that Mary Magdalen
had and within the within the disciples, and yeah, that's
(01:06:43):
those stories they did. Those stories they ditch. But the
one that's a cautionary tale to women not to be
too proud, they ditch that too. Seems inconsistent.
Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
I wonder I wonder why that would be. Yeah, oh,
all right, so I guess we can move on to
that one if you would like. I guess first up
on the hit list for hour two is, in fact
the Gospel of Mary. Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:07:10):
I didn't know if you wanted to do Pisto Sophia
or the Gospel Mary, but we can go with the
Gospel Married first. That's great deal with both of them.
Give a lot of insight into Mary Magdalene's kinship with Jesus.
And not to put that in the soworid way, but
it's often been spoken of and alluded to that she
(01:07:33):
was chief among the disciples, and all the revisionist history
after them follows kind of Peter's jealousy about that. So, yeah,
the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, it's a very different kind
of hidden Christian teaching. It elevates her to the foremost
(01:07:54):
disciple and creates kind of like the women's insight about
the soul. It was discovered in an Egyptian papyrus codex
around eighteen ninety six, and its fragmentary is missing a
lot of pages, but what survises that is really fascinating.
It's dated to the second century, like many gnostic meaning texts.
(01:08:18):
In it, Mary Magdalen appears is the beloved teacher who
imparts special revelations from Jesus. She was read in on
all the big secrets, and in this one she shares
a private vision that she's.
Speaker 8 (01:08:36):
And it.
Speaker 11 (01:08:42):
Describes the journey of the soul as sending to heaven
and through cosmic obstacles of faces along the way. Yeah,
and this is what I mean, the the bigger version
that it's better known as the Christo Sophia.
Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
So all right, So I mean as far as one
of I guess the biggest tenets of it is. During
this she relates that the soul must pass through a
series of realms dominated by hostile powers. They named entities
such as darkness, desire, ignorance, wrath, and others, often interpreted
(01:09:18):
as personifications of inner passions or demonic arcans. As the
soul rises, each power challenges it, trying to pull it down.
In Mary's vision, the soul can only ascend by essentially
transcending these forces, realizing its true divine nature, and answering
with knowledge. For example, the soul is asked, where are
you going, Soul? You are bound by wickedness. You lack
(01:09:41):
what you need, and the soul replies with the truth
is that stripped the power of that realm. When the
soul reveals its true nature, it can move beyond the
grasp of these oppressive powers. Eventually, the soul reaches eternal
rest with what is called the rest of the good,
presumably the divine fullness. This is class diagnostic imagery, the
(01:10:01):
idea that the soul is sending pasted arkhans who try
to bar the way until reaching salvation. What is notable
is that this profound teaching is put in Mary Magdalene's mouth.
She is portrayed as grasping spiritual truths that Peter and Andrew,
for instance, didn't actually receive.
Speaker 11 (01:10:22):
Yeah, and what's really interesting about this is that it,
like I said, it's the story about Sophia, and she
is a feminine divine figure. This is what we were
talking about earlier. You know, if God made us in
his image, why were there no female divine figures? And
Sophia is one of them. She's one of the lesser ones.
And it basically she wanted to ascend to the greatest
(01:10:44):
light on her own without being guided along the way,
and for her efforts, she fell to the lowest lows,
Jesus goes, and you know it's he kind of like
just guides her on the way back and through the way.
Is in Gnostic tradition, revealing ancient secrets that are available,
you know, that are presented in this text, as you know,
(01:11:07):
Mary lays it out. But what's weird about it is
it weaves together Egyptian, Hellenistic, Jewish and Christian ideas into
kind of this single mystic stew you know, astrology, reincarnation,
spiritual purification, secret, names of power. And it's long, repetitive
and cryptic, but it's also one of the more complete
(01:11:29):
portraits of female divinity in early Christianity. And it elevates again,
like I had said before, it elevates Mary into Jesus's
most insightful disciple.
Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
And which is interesting because you remember, I can't why
can't I not think of the name of the books,
but they were made into movies with Tom Hanks, and
one of the things that talks about is is the
actual the Last Supper and where they're pointing out that
it actually looks like the person closest to these is
in that painting looks feminine.
Speaker 11 (01:12:01):
Yeah, that's in the Da Vinci Code.
Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
Yeah, there we go. I don't know, I couldn't think
of that, but I have so much to say about
that movie.
Speaker 11 (01:12:13):
But yeah, it's really fascinating. It's actually one of the
longer gospels. It it's really long, and it reads like
Old Testament too, a lot of begats and so on
and so forth. But it's it's kind of like Paradise
(01:12:35):
Loss and meets a Cabala Manual and it's the whole
thing is the story of Sophia's yearning is a metaphor
for all lost souls, and it weaves a gostic, musical, mythic,
and lyrical journey. It reads like prose, but in the
(01:12:55):
most torturous way possible.
Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
Oh, it's just some of this stuff is just fascinating.
So I just I kind of get lost and thought
when we're going through it, because I just, dude, can
you with as male centric as Christianity became over the years,
could you imagine if Mary Magdalen was in fact one
of Jesus' most trusted teachers. No wonder they didn't leave
(01:13:25):
it in there.
Speaker 11 (01:13:26):
That was alluded to exiles too, if I remember, I
think the same one.
Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
Yeah, I think it was the same one. Actually, yeah, So.
Speaker 11 (01:13:37):
It's just yeah, I mean that would have I mean,
I can see why this book was rejected. I really can,
because you know, it's like we had just spoken about
when we were talking about Lilith, is that, you know,
the early Church went out of their way to make
it very male centric, even to the point when when
(01:13:58):
you study the history of it you're kind of like, wow, guys,
that's suddicularly even for second century.
Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
So so, just another one of the quick hits that
we didn't really get to because I was I wasn't
really paying that much attention for some reason. I, like
I said, I got lost in thought. One of the
other ones that I found that I thought was really
interesting was a Jewish apocrypha text called the Apocalypse of Adam.
(01:14:29):
Did you see anything about that? No, I didn't.
Speaker 11 (01:14:31):
I missed that one.
Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
So this is a Jewish apocryphal text that recounts the
lives of Adam and Eve after their expulsion from the
Garden of Eden to their deaths. It also provides an
interpretation of the genesis account of creation, describes the descent
of heavenly illumination of knowledge, and ends with an apocalyptic prophecy,
(01:14:53):
the Greek origin of the Apocalypse of Adam dated to
the early second century CE. So what I find most
interesting is all of these texts that are showing up
were all dated to around the same time. Almost all
these apocryphers were sometime towards the second century.
Speaker 11 (01:15:09):
That was when the Gnostics were just kind of really
coming into their own and you know, they they had,
you know, they were kind of doing their own library
of Alexandria with religious texts, and they were really absorbing
the knowledge, and so a lot of them were you know,
(01:15:33):
doing spinoffs and origin stories and everything, creating a very
robust tale of everything that happened up to earlier that afternoon.
And that's why a lot of these documents, you know,
when you find them in Gnostic tradition or you know
in you know, Coptic they they really wanted to preserve
everything on the topic, and sadly most of it was lost.
(01:16:00):
The story the quick Hits, I liked. This one kind
of cracked me up. Was the story of John and
the bed Bugs. Did you catch that one?
Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
I did not know.
Speaker 11 (01:16:08):
So in the act the Acts of John, he performs
a miracle where the apostle goes to stay in and
in plagued with bed bugs, and he politely tells the
bugs behave yourself a few bugs, and leave this room
for the night. The next morning, the entire storm of
beg bugs is found lined up outside the door waiting
(01:16:29):
to be let back in. And as John was leaving,
he said, you can now return to your place, and
the obedient bud bugs scuttle back into the bed and it,
you know, it shows John's dominion overall creatures, even the
lowliest insect. But it reads like you know, you know,
(01:16:52):
the earliest orcanmn.
Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Orcannn. All right, So here's another one that for some
reason actually didn't make it into the outline consists that
I tried to put together, and I think this one
is pretty interesting, which is one of the reasons why
I wanted to back up to Adam because we were
kind of getting into New Testament territory. So the Testament
(01:17:17):
of Solomon, King Solomon, Master of Demons, that was.
Speaker 11 (01:17:21):
A big one. Yeah, that's uh, absolutely huge document.
Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
So yeah, this one is a little bit later than
most of the Gnostic texts we've been discussing. This one
is dated somewhere between third and fifth century eighty and
it reads like a supernatural memoir of none other than
of King Solomon's construction of the Temple with a heavy
dose of demonology. In the Bible, King Solomon was known
(01:17:54):
for his wisdom in later legend, and here he was
also famed as a great magician, which as far as
I'm I know, is frowned upon in modern Christianity.
Speaker 11 (01:18:03):
And that's what I was talking about with you know
when I when we were talking about the apocalypse.
Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
Sorcerers and sorcerers and sorcerers.
Speaker 11 (01:18:12):
You know here he is basically basically a demonologist. Well
what he did, It's it's said that the the Second
Temple was built entirely by demons, and basically he would
call up a demon by name, knew all their names,
ask him what they did, you know who their corresponding
(01:18:33):
angel was, you know what they're the demon of, and
set them to work. And this reads like the who's
who of demonology if if you're a d and danerd,
it's like getting the monster manual that had the list
of all the demons and devils in it. Yeah, as
(01:18:54):
Modius Biel's above, and it kind of puts some of
these in context too. Is that some of the names
that we equate with bigger, more powerful devils and demons
like I just mentioned Asmodius and Biel's above and Lucifer
and so on and so forth. Their actual names in
this are impronounceable, and there are really lesser demons. It's
(01:19:17):
just like they got good press later in Christianity.
Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Well, interesting couple of little side notes about this stuff. So,
first of all, this book is basically it's kind of
a cross between extorcist fan fiction and one thousand and
one Nights.
Speaker 7 (01:19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
One of the interesting things is how he manages to
get this power. He was actually delivered by. It looks
like the archangel Michael a signet he delivered to Solomon,
a signet ring engraved with a magical seal. It's depicted
in modern depictions as either a pentagram or even a hexagram,
which that's something that I didn't I mean, other than
(01:20:00):
the Star of Israel, I was I was not aware
of any hexagrams. So with this ring, Solomon gains the
power to bind and controlled demons. So that's that's that's
actually a thing. It's called the legendary Sequal of Solomon.
Solomon in a cult tradition right.
Speaker 11 (01:20:16):
See, and this one too, it reads in first person narrative,
so it's more like in either an autobiography or confession.
Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
Embrace the poem, embrace the power of and and you know.
Speaker 11 (01:20:28):
It's like I said, when he's going through you know,
there's male and female demons. You know, there's one that
strangles infants because she blames it on her never being
allowed to bear children. Uh, there's one that causes deafness
and blindness, and you know it. So in one of
this president's seat, it's all the these are the these
(01:20:48):
are the plague demons, the ailments and everything. And then
they get bound and said, Okay, you're making you know, bricks,
you're you know, oh you can fly, Well you're that
gym up on the you know that kind of So
it's very you know, putting them to specific tasks based
on their appearance or what they're what would be punishment
(01:21:14):
to them in relation to you know, like I had mentioned,
you know who, which which demon you know or which
angel you know confounds you the most, which one pisss
you off? Well you have to do what he's the
angel of, So you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
So I think one of the most interesting things about
this is one, there's a lot of triumphs in this story,
but it actually doesn't end on a very good note.
But at one point the king actually then boasts thanking
God for giving him dominion overall demons, and once he's
done with them, he either seals them in jars or
sends them to where they belong. Chief among them was
(01:21:55):
someone with a name a lot of you would probably recognize,
but it is slightly different. Builds a bull so anyway.
But again the textas and all triumph, it ends with
a moral warning. Despite all of his wisdom and power
over demon, Solomon still is led as stray at the
end of his life. The Testament recounts how Solomon took
(01:22:17):
many foreign wives and under their influence, he was persuaded
to sacrifice to false gods, and the story one of
the last demons, a particularly nasty spirit of lust, actually
tricks Solomon into wearing the signet ring on the wrong finger,
temporarily robbing it of power, and then steals it and
throws it into the sea. I'm surprised he didn't throw
(01:22:39):
it into a volcano. Solomon only recovers his ring thanks
to a fisherman shades of a fairytale there, but by
then Solomon has learned certain there right, So by then
Solomon has learned his lesson in his and has learned
a masterful lesson in ability. He confesses that he, the
(01:23:01):
master of demons, was finally overcome by his own human
weakness and fell into idolatry, leading to his kingdom's downfall.
This framing alignce with known biblical lore Solomon's apostasy, but
with a creative paranormal twist.
Speaker 11 (01:23:21):
It was really I mean, yeah, it's long again, it's
a slog through all the names and everything, but it
you know, it's fun. It's a fun reader. And you know,
you can find a lot of these what survives of
the texts, and yeah, it's there's a book of them too,
(01:23:45):
and yeah, if you're interested in this, it's it's out there,
and it's it's like I said, yeah, the story of uh,
you know, the bed bugs and everything, and some of
them are just good and you know, the Jesus and
the terrible you know, early years, some of them are
just good fun. It's not all yeah, moralizing and fire,
(01:24:05):
and I mean, yeah, there's moralizing, but it's not all
fire and brimstone in them. You got two good ones
to come back to.
Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
You want to take a break, Yeah, we can go
ahead and take the break, and then we've we've still
got well, I did want to do one more quickness.
I don't think we've covered this. Did we talk about
Peter's canine messenger? No, I don't think. I don't. I
don't think. I don't think we talked about we do, so,
so we we are in the Apocryphal Acts of Peter
(01:24:34):
during the second century the Apostle Apostle, Peter battles the
heretic Simon Maggus in a showdown of miracles. In one
zany episode, Peter uses a talking dog to deliver a message.
He commands the dog to speak and it does, startling Simon. Later,
Simon Maggus tries to prove himself by literally flying off
a tower in Rome, claiming he's a god. In response,
(01:24:57):
Peter to stop the fraud, and Simon promptly plummets to
the grappl crashing and breaking his legs.
Speaker 8 (01:25:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:25:07):
Yeah, I mean. Also in this one too, is you
got Peter resurrecting a smoked tuna, and then he orders
the prepared fish to rise and swim to show that
Simon's magic, you know, is inferior to his own. Yeah,
and these are all meant, you know, to show true
divine power versus sorcery and you know, mysticism.
Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
Yeah. But yeah, well not of that, but they made
Peter look kind of cool.
Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:25:33):
Absolutely. Yeah. And again, as we have discussed with other stories,
Peter's and I'm just I'm just gonna come out and
say Peter's jealousy to Mary Magdalene, there was a lot
of refeation, reformation of his importance in later documents. I mean, actually,
(01:25:55):
I mean, what what what what is the pope's official title?
Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Uh, I don't honestly know Peter or something like that
with the sign of yeah something like that. I know
Peter's in there somewhere.
Speaker 11 (01:26:13):
So, especially in Catholicism, a lot of reformation of Peter
and his importance to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
All right, so let's go ahead and get queued up
to do the break. It'll take me a second anyway,
because we're But the one thing that I wanted to
point out is the thing that this kind of reminded
me of is it's like a Blooper Reels version of
the whole thing with Moses and the phar.
Speaker 11 (01:26:47):
I was like, you know what, remember the remember the
movie Holy Moses. Yeah, I'm drawing a blank the actor
who played Arthur anyway, So yeah, it was kind of
like a spoof. Don del Lewis was in it, and
(01:27:08):
it was like he everywhere Moses went. His brother was
five minutes later, and so he's just kind of like,
you know, Richard Pryor was in it. It's a fun one.
John Ritter's in it. It's a good parody of the
the ancient texts, and it's got a good message at
(01:27:30):
the end. But yeah, it just you know this this
this book kind of reminded me of that too, where
it's you know, like you said, the blueprim reel of
Moses's Adventures, Thank.
Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
You, this music, this musical interlude. Break is barred to
you by none other than J. E. Lef or At
a cosmic bart And here we go.
Speaker 11 (01:28:32):
Watch your fall, fire on the.
Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
So mend, the blaze, shod.
Speaker 18 (01:28:47):
Found in shape, fire light gray. The children are shows fas.
Speaker 9 (01:29:30):
Torn from the fir moment less lesson free, whisper.
Speaker 15 (01:29:39):
Of Joe drowning us, my ways all eagle in so fla.
Speaker 16 (01:30:09):
Break and treess cannot.
Speaker 8 (01:30:16):
He sees the sky and the.
Speaker 16 (01:30:19):
Cracks up standing glass and here's the flame crawling through
the ground as set crystal something of the expas.
Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
Chart and welcome back in, ladies and gentlemen, and he
(01:32:09):
has outdone himself again. A good again, quick nod and
thank you to our very own a cosmic Bard, because
I don't know, during the slower parts, there was like
definitely like a Freddie Mercury vibe going on.
Speaker 11 (01:32:23):
Yeah, he sent me one earlier in the week and
I was trying to parse it out, and I'm like, wow,
it sounds like, you know, start out a little uh
lolla voodoo and he's allowed. I wasn't getting that, so
I sent him the song that I was thinking of.
He's on Damn You four four time, But he also
got Pauli rhythmic in the in the meat of the song,
so it just, yeah, he's he's absolutely destroying it with some.
Speaker 1 (01:32:48):
Dude. That's just I don't know. I'm happy that I
can occasionally make it spit out something that sounds like
a decent intro, and then he does stuff like this,
and I'm like, I'm both owed and mad at the
same time, because I can't do that. Yeah, but the
figure outstally, but I can't do that.
Speaker 11 (01:33:05):
Yeah, I picked I picked up some tool on that too.
Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
So yeah, it was it was there was there was
like some tool vibeage going on during the lower parts.
And maybe it's because the other day when I was
driving around Born to Be Kings came on and that's
why I think the lower part reminded me a lot
of Freddie Mercury. And then it went into the other part.
I'm like, oh, and there's some kind of toolish vibe
going on. It was just I don't know, it was
(01:33:28):
just and that was really well done.
Speaker 11 (01:33:31):
I don't want to say about prog rock and you know,
yeah in the early days and uh, you know, up
up to Monrows. So it's one of the things that
it's like we both kind of dig on and we
can spot, you know, the influences in it, and most
of the time I'm right, and you know, so he's
got this one those tool meets raw and I was like,
(01:33:53):
you know, you could pick up on each of those
just absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
Nice all right. So we've got two of the bigger
ones and one that would if it was actually allowed
to be in the Bible would probably turn most of
Christianity on its head.
Speaker 11 (01:34:09):
Yeah, I think I think we need to start with
the Book of Giants, the Lost Tails of the Nephilim.
Speaker 1 (01:34:17):
Probably, Yeah, yeah, this one.
Speaker 11 (01:34:20):
It's it's again. You know, we talked about how like
the Book of Enoch was DLC. This is DLC at
the DLC or the expansion from the DLC, you know,
because you know sometimes the video games where they'll do
a DLC and then split off Rainbow six, good example.
Uh So, anyway, the Book of Giants has written entirely
from the perspective of the Nephilim giants, and it was
(01:34:42):
discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, and it expands on
the violent exploits and the downfall of them, you know,
being born of angels and women.
Speaker 15 (01:34:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
So the work is an anarchic apocalypse. I've never tried
to say that word before, but the talking from yeah, yeah,
from Enoch so so. But but it's it's one of
those as well. So it presupposes the same backstory from
(01:35:16):
Enoch about the Watchers and their giant offspring. But what's
especially fascinating is that the Book of Giants is again
told from the perspective of the giants themselves, and it's
the only known ancient text that focuses entirely on these
monstrous characters and gives them voice. We hear about the
giant brother uh looks like ohio and hey iya, I think.
Speaker 11 (01:35:41):
And ha ha ha yah.
Speaker 1 (01:35:44):
Yeah, that's because you're kind of giving it a Native
American vibe said to be the sons of the chief
of Fallen angel Chimiseiah. So yeah, I kind of kind
of I kind of feel like a I know where
you're getting that vite from, though, because they probably are
supposed to sound close to the name.
Speaker 11 (01:36:04):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:36:04):
These giants terrorize the earth, devouring flesh and drinking blood.
In other sources, real bully villains, but in this text,
they also experience ominous dreams about divine judgment.
Speaker 11 (01:36:19):
Yeah, the part that survives in the broken bits. You
really have to piece the story together. It seems like, uh,
some of the giants is the two main ones. They
experienced a series of dreams that symbolically for tell the
coming flood in their destruction. One dream involves a huge
tablet that has submerged in water. I believe to be
(01:36:40):
representing the flood and all the names on it have
been washed away except for three. The giants are disturbed
by these dreams and call upon Enoch to interpret them,
and yeah, he becomes the Nephelum psychologists in this, and
it says is that you know, these type the tyrants
(01:37:00):
are terrified of what's coming. And basically he says him, yeah,
and uh, you know the giants in their fallen angel fathers,
they're doomed. And it reveals the names of a lot
of the giants, Mahawe who acts as the messenger to Enoch.
(01:37:20):
Uh like you mentioned, uh oh yeah hai yah. But
it even mentions Gilgamesh in it, which is kind of
a weird crossover from the Mesotian texts. Yeah, you know
the myth of g Yeah, yeah, he's listened as one
of the giants in the text, and you know it's
(01:37:43):
the demigod who sought eternal life is here among the
Nephelom and you know, destined perish in the flood. It
shows how tied into uh mess Potonian intertwining the stories
were how I you know mentioned earlier and if you
take Yahweh back to err he was a god of
(01:38:05):
war and thunder, so.
Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
That that kind of tracks with it too, So interesting
little side note that I just picked up on. So
as as the giants or the Nephelim are approaching their
own version of Armageddon, they're communicating on tablets.
Speaker 11 (01:38:24):
Yeah why not.
Speaker 1 (01:38:26):
I'm well, I'm just pointing out that almost everybody owns
the tablet right now, Okay, coincidence?
Speaker 11 (01:38:32):
See where you're going with that? Now? Yeah, because they
fired off an email to Enoch, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
But I'm just like, so are they talking like, you know,
Ten Commandments style tablet or is there some sort of
technological thing going on there?
Speaker 11 (01:38:45):
And you know that's that's when you're getting into the
uh you know, Zachariassischen's territory there and uh but yeah,
I wow, JEFFI was sending me part of the lyrics
from the song he did and it actually references the
(01:39:06):
anyway some of the giants. Yeah. So yeah, the story
actually spread eastward instead of after the third century.
Speaker 12 (01:39:19):
And.
Speaker 11 (01:39:22):
It's obscure, but it's a really good mix of any
Deluvian horror and cross cultural legend.
Speaker 1 (01:39:32):
I mean, all of it is just kind of weird.
So among the surviving scroll fragments, there are vivid scenes
the giants rallying each other for battle or reacting the
eno oracle or the tablet emails so sorry and dims them.
The Watchers, they apparently fight among themselves as things fall apart.
(01:39:54):
One fragment has a giant however, you pronounced his name
a minute ago telling Gilgamesh again from Mesopotamia about a dream.
Imagine that conversation. So yeah, So apparently eventually God sends
the archangels to subdue the Watchers, and the giants are
(01:40:16):
wiped out by the flood.
Speaker 11 (01:40:20):
Yeah, you know it basically the story ends because you know,
again they're fragments, so they can't see the end of
the story ends with the cataclysm, and you know what
survives is it's ancient readers were absolutely enthralled with the
idea of angel human monsters, and you know, spun elaborate
(01:40:43):
stories with them. This text, you know, like I said,
it was really popular beyond Jerusalem and really spread eastward.
And yeah, it's just it's one of those things that
it's like I said, you know, here's a book that
wasn't in the Bible, and then here's a book from
the book that also wasn't in the Bible.
Speaker 8 (01:41:00):
And.
Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
It gives you the story of these things that God
apparently hated so much he destroyed the entire planet by flood.
Speaker 16 (01:41:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (01:41:08):
So yeah, well Ajemi hero show up. I mean, yeah,
mess Potato was long before ancient Israel in the area.
But still, it's just interesting that. I mean, it's interesting
that the story of GoGames survived, you know, to modern
times anyway, but also that it was cross referenced in
(01:41:33):
text that could have been canonical.
Speaker 1 (01:41:37):
So the only thing that I'm going to say is,
in all my studies of trying to find all the
books of apocrypha that we could find, I'm really upset
that there isn't like a DLC regarding the Tower of Babel,
because I really want to know what happened there, because
I doubt God was pissed off about one hundred foot
tall building. There had to be something else going.
Speaker 11 (01:41:54):
Well, you got to take one hundred foot in a
time when most buildings were ten but even then, the
permids were much taller. The Ziggerats are much taller.
Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
But yeah, well it's just you know, they said, if
they can work together to do this, eventually they they
will reach they will be able to reach to us.
So knowing what we now know, scientifically about if there
is a heaven and hell that it exists in a
different dimension. I am a firm believer that there's something
else that was going on with that Will Teller of
(01:42:27):
Babel thing same, but there's there's there's no other information.
I'm pretty sure God wouldn't give a shit about a
tall building otherwise, you know, we have we have a
lot of taller buildings. Now, point that out.
Speaker 11 (01:42:39):
Yeah, yeah, you had sorcerers flying off tall building and
they probably got a hundred feet but.
Speaker 1 (01:42:48):
Ah, well, I mean I guess it depends. I guess
it depends on when Jesus took the flying away because
dude apparently survived and only broke his legs, so it
couldn't have been that bad of a thing. Yeah, I
mean you can do that off Uh yeah, I mean
you do that wrong. You can do that off a
ten foot roof.
Speaker 11 (01:43:05):
You do that doing it all off a five foot
high set of stairs. Ask me how this is true.
Speaker 1 (01:43:12):
I'll ask you how how you know? Later?
Speaker 11 (01:43:14):
Yeah, So we got to get to the one that
was the spawn of this show, the original document I
had stumbled upon that. Really we've been stewing on for
four years for at least four years. And that is
the uh, the Gospel of Judas, you know, the secret
(01:43:37):
revelation of the Trader. Now, this is one of the
most sensation Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (01:43:45):
No, I was gonna say this. This is the one
that would turn all of modern Christianity on its head
because there is a staunch reversal of roles. Judas in
modern Christianity is deemed a trader and all. But in
this gospel he's actually not the villain. He's an insider,
(01:44:06):
is he much like Mary Magdalene. He knows and understands
things that the rest of the apostles do not.
Speaker 11 (01:44:13):
Yeah, this one absolutely flips the script. It was found
in with the Dead Sea scrolls, and it's the you know,
among the gnostic it was canonical, and it's the story
of Judas, who you all know was the betrayer of Jesus,
you know over for you know, forty pieces of silver.
(01:44:33):
And in this one also, you know, written in the
second century, he's on par with Mary Magdalene. And as
we've discussed, you know, through the course of the show,
according to the text, Jesus secretly reveals to him cosmic
secrets and asks Judah to betray him. And Judas does
(01:44:55):
as an act of obedience, he says, you will exceed
all of Themesus says, yours, for you will sacrifice the
man that clothes me, implying that by helping Jesus shed
his mortal coil, Judas is aiding the divine plan. And
in other words, Judas's betrayal was done at Jesus' own
request to liberate his soul from the fleshy vessel. And this,
(01:45:20):
this is absolutely mind bending with everything that you've been
taught about Judas and that the idea of salvation comes
from secret knowledge, and that the material world is just
a prison for the divine spirit.
Speaker 1 (01:45:35):
Well so, even earlier in this though, there's something else
that I think would again be something that would turn
most of the modern Christianity on its head, because earlier
in the Gospel, Jesus actually observes his disciples giving a
Eucharist style blessing over bread, and he actually laughs at them,
and they ask why he and why, and he says, essentially,
(01:45:56):
you're not worshiping the real God. This that the tone
for one of the weirdest christologies. You'll find Jesus as
a knowing emissary from a higher alien realm of pure spirit.
So while the rest of the world, including most Christians,
are trapped in ignorance under the Arkans, which we've referenced before,
(01:46:17):
of the physical world, Judas uniquely has the spiritual insight
to understand what's going on. So when and that's when
you differenced earlier when Jesus says, you will sacrifice the
man who clothes me, basically referring to his body of flesh.
But I thought it was interesting because this goes back
to again something we talked about in the very beginning
(01:46:38):
of the show, when the when God made the commandment
you shall have no other gods before me, that was
not figurative, just pointing that out, Yeah, and.
Speaker 11 (01:46:48):
This is yeah, you know, it's there's a really chilling
section in the middle of the text where Jesus reveals
to Judas the structure of the cosmos, the AONs, the
clouds of angel, the luminaries, the vast invisible realm above
the material one the true God called the Great Invisible
Spirit dwells there, and below that are all the other
(01:47:10):
divine beings, you know. Barbello Adams. Eventually Soklas and Sokola
is where yahwe is a stand in for it as
as demiurge Sokos are the are his angels and uh cohorts,
and they create the flawed physical world and bound human
(01:47:33):
bodies and made human bodies as prisons for souls. Human
souls become trapped in flesh over and over until they
achieve nassis, you know, the secret knowledge that lets them
into the vine realm other you know. If you don't,
then you are doomed to reincarnation or being feast upon
(01:47:57):
by the Sokles and the Adamas and the Barbelos. It
really becomes u kind of a do you all got
a fucking wrong guys? You know you haven't paid.
Speaker 12 (01:48:12):
Well?
Speaker 11 (01:48:12):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (01:48:12):
And at one point Jesus actually explains explained or is
just uh basically describes a vision to Judas and a
vision of the stars that represents human souls, and he
explains that most people will actually never be saved, that
they'll die in ignorance, their spirits and spirits devoured by
those folks that you were talking of, those groups that
(01:48:33):
you were talking about earlier, and only a few like Judas,
which again is completely different than what modern Christianity teaches today.
Understand the true message. There is a bitter undercurrent, the
idea that even the disciples who follow Jesus don't actually
get what he's about. Judas is the lone exception chosen
(01:48:54):
to betray him as part of again, the defined escape plan. So,
and I have to admit this is something that has
always bothered me because modern Christianity has always been, you know,
from the beginning, God knew everything that is happening will happen,
and has happened, and has always had this plan. And
(01:49:16):
I'm like, so, you knew at some point you were
going to be sending part of you down to interact
with me and help give them the way back to you,
whether that's through acceptance or whatever the case may be.
And you knew that someone was going to betray him,
making that possible, and yet you punish the person doing
(01:49:38):
for doing the exact thing that you knew he was
going to do that he would need to do to
make all of this happen in the first place. So
I have to admit this explains a lot of things
that have been confusing me for a very long time.
Speaker 11 (01:49:53):
It's terrified to s listening to you say that that's
an evolution from when we started doing the show, because
when I first mentioned the Book of Judas, you were
kind of hesitant.
Speaker 1 (01:50:06):
Well, I also found it and studied it a little
bit getting ready for this show.
Speaker 11 (01:50:11):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, And the story of Judas also
covers a calendar war that's going on, a ritual war
that's going on that isn't of itself a subtle dig
at mainstream Christianity and Judaism alike Jesus Mock's animal sacrifice,
(01:50:31):
temple worship, and like you had mentioned, the early Eucharist.
The implication is that all religious rituals are tied to
the body and the world, and that's part of the trap.
Salvation in this text doesn't come through faith and repentance.
It comes from awakening to hidden truths, you know, the
thirteenth Spirit, the outsider among outsiders, in his fate to
(01:50:54):
be hated for all generations at the costs of his transcendence.
Speaker 1 (01:51:02):
So yeah, the manuscript itself ends rather abruptly. It was damaged,
but the final readable section has Judas receiving payment and
separating from the others, thus completing his role in Jesus'
strange divine plan. Whether Judas himself is saved or remains ambiguous.
He may be damned by history, but the text leaves
open whether he returns to the light. For gnostic thinkers,
(01:51:25):
the paradox would have been perfect.
Speaker 11 (01:51:30):
And yeah, this is another one of those characters that
has come up earlier in our shows, when again we
did vampirism and you know, the story of Judas is
why the vampires are unable to interact with silver as
part of the curse in demonology, and even I think
(01:51:52):
you know, when we did Wecanthropy and Werewolf's Judas came
up in that as well. And yeah, this is a
universally reviled fare and to take this text at value,
him and Mary Magdalen, the two that are absolutely completely
fucking ignored or berated by the Bible as we know it,
(01:52:14):
are the actual heroes of the story.
Speaker 1 (01:52:19):
Which again you know, looking at everything else, and this
is part of what between those two and everything that is.
We were getting ready to do this and I started
reading through everything. It was like that this would this
would fit Jesus to a tea though, because he, just
like God is depicted to do throughout the Bible, took
(01:52:40):
the least the people that everybody hated the people who
couldn't talk, the people who were drunk, until God got
a hold of them, the worst of the worst and
made them the best.
Speaker 11 (01:52:51):
Well, so it kind of fits, yeah, you make them
the best among it. And you know one of the
things that I've this kind of fits my own head
can and as I've said, really, you know, religiously, I'm
I'm not generally agnostic. I'm spiritual, spiritual, but not religious.
And my take on Jesus and from what I how
(01:53:13):
I read the Bible, has always been he was a
proto Socrates in that he exposed wisdom through questioning.
Speaker 1 (01:53:23):
He wasn't.
Speaker 11 (01:53:24):
You know, it's the Socratic method is you know, basically,
you know, Socrates' favorite thing is like I'm ignorant, explain
it to me and have people have people's arguments fall
under their own the way to its own hypocrisy. And
that's kind of how I've always viewed Jesus too. So this,
in that is would make Mary Magdalene and Judas, you know,
(01:53:48):
like Plato and the students of Socrates who would be
standing back watching this interchange saying, I get it, you know,
I get what he's doing there. I'm seeing the attack
and where everybodybody else is doing an appeasement ritual, doing
what they think they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (01:54:09):
We are not quite we are not quite three months
from Ostober's there. Don't you don't don't you put that
curs on now, we got an extra week. Don't put
that curs on me, Ricky, Bobby.
Speaker 11 (01:54:23):
You know what, I'm actually gonna hit the calendar and
find out when the first week of Nope, we're three months.
Speaker 1 (01:54:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't hear it.
Speaker 11 (01:54:34):
First show is either going to be on the twenty
seventh of September or the fourth of October. So there's that.
What time flies? So yeah, I mean this is one
of those. It's like I said, when I discovered this
thing existed, it it spoke to me in the fact
(01:54:55):
that it comported my life view of Geez and that
this is totally something he would do.
Speaker 1 (01:55:05):
I mean, like I said, it kind of as a.
Speaker 11 (01:55:07):
Good point, you know what, Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:55:10):
Uh yeah, we're getting feedback from the chat. I thought
you might find it important.
Speaker 11 (01:55:14):
Yeah, I you know what, It goes the other way around.
For some reason. I had Socrates later then, but yeah,
that track Socrates was before Jesus was about four hundred
years after him. That's what happens when you drive all day.
But yeah, so it would be the other Jesus absolutely
used the Socratic method, probably did.
Speaker 1 (01:55:39):
Yeah, But all right, so you've got one more deep
dive you wanted to do.
Speaker 11 (01:55:47):
No, actually, we don't have time for it. We're gonna
have to save it, save it for another show.
Speaker 1 (01:55:52):
It's gonna say, we don't have anything on after us
unless you're ready to go to bed.
Speaker 11 (01:55:57):
No, I mean it's I mean, which one were you
talking about? Because we hit the two out that we
had teased earlier.
Speaker 1 (01:56:03):
I thought, uh no, we left one. Yeah, hang on,
I'm trying to figure out what I do in my
notes because it's not working now. It's not letting me scroll.
So where did that one go? I've lost one of
(01:56:24):
my Oh wait, I know what I did? I have
stuff opening two different tabs. So did we do the
voidage manuscript that I missed it?
Speaker 11 (01:56:32):
No, we didn't, And that one we can do, you know, Yeah,
let's go ahead and do that. Well, do bonus content.
We can go a few minutes long.
Speaker 1 (01:56:41):
I'm just gonna say it's all right. I was planning
on watching Church from YouTube today tomorrow anyway, so I
don't have to get up early because I've got some work.
I got to get caught up around here, so we're
gonna do all that. But anyway, So yeah, the one
that the the Bonus Content round is starting right about now.
No brakes, no bumpers, none of that word is gonna
(01:57:02):
go straight into it. So take it away, my friend.
Speaker 11 (01:57:08):
Yeah. The the Voidish Manuscript. This this book is actually
quite fascinating is that it's written in a language no
one can identify, using a script that appears nowhere else
on earth. It's filled with drawings of plants that don't exist, uh,
naked women, and strange contraptions, mystical diagrams, stuff that resembles
(01:57:31):
zodiac wheels but not really alchymal charts. And it's been
around for over six hundred years and has largely defied translation.
It was a toy project of code crackers during World
War Two. It's been run through AI. It's every cryptologists
(01:57:57):
still drool over this book, and there was some reports
that it was solved, but I haven't seen anything conclusive
on it. What it is, it's the size of a
modern textbook. It's about two hundred and forty million pages,
bound like a codex and made of high quality caf
skin parchment. Like I said, it's about six hundred years old.
(01:58:20):
It was first acquired. It comes from a man named
Wilfrid Voinache, Polish Lithuanian antiquarian who acquired it around nineteen
twelve from a Jesuit college near Rome. And the manuscripts
providence goes even further back. At first is referenced in
the seventeenth century in a letter to a Jesuit scholar
(01:58:42):
an early Egyptologists who were looking at translating it as
if it was coptic and possibly possible hieroglyphs. And that's
it's been a mystery for that long.
Speaker 3 (01:59:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:59:01):
So even though the author of the letter had begged
the scholar Kitcher to decide for the book, so but
at that point it was it was still already considered
a mystery. Also, I would be remiss to also point
out before the alien and the check gets mad at me,
that there was also apparently alien technology included in the book.
Speaker 11 (01:59:17):
So yes, yeah, a lot of the stuff, a lot
of the stuff in it is fever dreamish, you know,
the writing itself. Yeah, It contains about twenty five to
thirty unique glyphs that repeat and word like clusters, and
are lined up with consistent spacing and punctuation. It reads
(01:59:39):
left or right and a flowing handwriting that is like
curse of Latin, but it doesn't match in alphabet. Some
of the words appear frequently function words like and and
the and, while others occur only once. Statistical analysis shows
that the text has a structure and it's not random,
(02:00:00):
and uh, there's high word frequency curves in it, but
it's not in any real language. It's like English and
Latin were meant to gibberish.
Speaker 1 (02:00:15):
So where's the where's the code talkers when you need them?
Speaker 11 (02:00:19):
Yeah, and that's the that's the weird thing too, because
you know, it's like I had mentioned, AI can't crack it.
Cryptographers haven't cracked it. It's broken down into several basic sections. First,
you have a botanical section that's about one hundred and
thirteen pages, each of them featuring a large plant, roots, leaves, blossoms,
(02:00:41):
except for none of these plants exist in nature. They
look plausible, but when you get closer, the roots are
stylized like tentacles. Got very HP Lovecraft in that fractic
explosions and sometimes you know, they just kind of like coral.
(02:01:01):
It's like one of the earliest known depictions of fractal recursiveness.
One theory is that the composites, but there's you know,
kind of like a symbolic botany, but not intended to
be naturalistic.
Speaker 1 (02:01:22):
So the next one's kind of interesting. So the next
section is broken up into astronomical and astrological sections. So
zodiac wheels with constellations like aries, tourists, et cetera, surrounded
by naked women. Can I get a giggity from the chat?
Often holding stars or floating in barrels of fluid. Each
sign is subdivided. Aries, for example, has fifteen women per
(02:01:45):
ring suggesting lunar phases or star charts. The text around
them is dense, almost prayer like. It's been interpreted as
a lunar calendar, an astrological birth book, or a kind
of magical menstruation charge Done done done, stay away from
women during these times.
Speaker 11 (02:02:04):
And the next section is about like a baldeological section,
and it's one of the weirdest. It's pages upon pages
of naked women bathing in either green or blue fluid,
they're crawling through tubes or being poured from one vessel
into another.
Speaker 8 (02:02:23):
Uh.
Speaker 11 (02:02:23):
It's all often connected by a plumbing system that defies physics.
And you know, those who are trying to crack the
code says that this is a depiction of humoral medicine,
you know, kind of medieval theories about how body fluids
and the humors and everything worked. Others think it's a
symbolic spiritual purification or or even tantric diagrams UH filtered
(02:02:47):
through East European mysticism versus excuse me, get a little
wheazy from our from a you know, instead of the
Comma Sutra.
Speaker 1 (02:02:58):
You had me at tantrisor my bad so cosmological diagram section.
So there's one of those two circular mandela's as well
as it looks like as mandalis mandalis. I don't know.
We do Mandela effect all the time. So I put
I put emphastus on the wrong sy level nested wheels, stars, tubes,
(02:03:23):
craters and explosions. One famous diagram shows nine consistric circles
with towers and stars, possibly representing heavenly spears or other realms.
There's even a fold out section otherwise known as a
centerfold for you young folks, Sorry, just kidding, rare for
that era that expands into a multipanel chart like a
(02:03:44):
pop up book of hidden knowledge.
Speaker 11 (02:03:48):
Yeah, there's a pharmacological section that jars lined the margins,
each of a unique shape referencing a chemical process or
herbal tenstures. And the plants again in this section are
not associated with any plants that are known. You know,
even the Materia Medica shows nothing like this in it,
(02:04:11):
even with these uh, you know, these jars, and it's
highly unlikely that they were you know, used. Yeah, it
exceeds the known glass blow or skill at the time.
Speaker 1 (02:04:28):
Yeah. So the final section everyone believes is either some
form of recipe section or final instructions. So the final
pages contain dense blocks of text, no images, often broken,
and do short paragraphs marked by stars. Some think these
are ritual instructions, healing spells, or even recipes for alchemy,
(02:04:50):
but what they actually do is anybody's guests.
Speaker 3 (02:04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (02:04:55):
Some of the more credible theories on this one is
that it's a ciphered language. Some believe that it encodes
Latin in a very it's kind of funny. Every every
time I hear ancient dialect, I'm reminded and starry at
S two one drink that every instance of when they
can't read something comes along and says it's an obscure
(02:05:16):
old dialect of Gould, because apparently they saw anybody ever wrote,
and there was never a common Gould anyway. So in
this one, too, an ancient obscure dialect of Latin or
an invented poly alphabet cipher using invented glyphs. You know,
the problem is the structure is too natural for it
(02:05:37):
to be a cipher. Yeah, it's even if it was
incredibly a complex one, there's no known plain text to
compare it to.
Speaker 1 (02:05:47):
You know what we need, You know that thing that
they found on that planet where O'Neil stuck his head
in it and suddenly had all the other agents. We
need to find that thing. Yeah, you know, I have
a feeling this would probably fixed that. There's also another
theory that it's in fact an artificial language like Tolkien's Elvish.
Someone could have created a full language. But why died
(02:06:11):
heterical content to protect trade secrets or just for the
intellectual intellectual joy of invention.
Speaker 11 (02:06:18):
Wouldn't that be funny? You do just fucking trolls with
a you know, nearly a thousand year old manuscripts is
gonna fuck them up for generations.
Speaker 1 (02:06:29):
Well yeah, what's funny thing? Interesting little side note since
we've already gone down the sci fi trail. In season
two of Picard Riker's Dead son created an entirely foreign
language that his youngest daughter used on occasion. So I
thought that was interesting.
Speaker 11 (02:06:48):
And why wouldn't he? But anyway, Yeah, some people think
that it's a it's automatic writing, trance writing. Some scholars
would wrote write under a trance spiritual mediums and you know,
schizophrenic savons producing structured nonsense. It feels like a language,
(02:07:09):
but it isn't.
Speaker 1 (02:07:11):
Or the Ocams razor approach, it's a hoax, skeptic's favorite.
Maybe a fifteenth century prankster made it to scam money
from nobility or confuse the clergy. But if it is
a hoax, it's a brilliant one, not only consistent over
hundreds of pages, but far more sophisticated than known forgeries
of the time. And it would have required immense labor
(02:07:34):
to create a language like pattern that isn't just scribbles.
Speaker 11 (02:07:39):
Well not just that, but I mean the artwork in it,
the materials used. This is you know, this is faking
a lottery ticket. By winning the lottery to fake a
bigger ticket. Oh, I mean it would have caused to
make this troll, to make this hoax an obscene amount
(02:08:00):
of money at the time, and skill skill that was
really reserved for monks. Yeah, I mean that's that's just
as plausible as a hoax. Now, other theories is that
this is a it's a grimoire, whether it be alchemical,
astrological or Yeah, some try to connect it to the
(02:08:24):
Kabbala or even Sufi medicine. It's the combination of plants, women, cosmology,
and ritual. Looking it's it's like an esoteric teaching manual.
But again there's no key to it. So if you're
trying to hide the knowledge, it's kind of you made
this one book with all this hidden knowledge in it,
and there's a cipher to it so that way your
disciples can read it. Now we have flashed forward nearly
(02:08:46):
a thousand years. Somebody lost the key.
Speaker 1 (02:08:51):
Where's the where's the instruction manual?
Speaker 11 (02:08:54):
That just be the fate of mankind. That the document
that unlocks all the seekerts of the Uni verse. Some
asshole loss the fucking Drogn's decoder wheel.
Speaker 1 (02:09:04):
Well, this one, this one kind of goes into that
to a point. So the next one is, of course,
that it's a lost language or code preserved by a
secret sect. Some friends thinkers think it's to link it
to the Cathars or the Boga Mills or even the
Temple are refugees who passed down knowledge in encrypted form.
(02:09:25):
Others invoke Roasti Crucians, which is actually interestingly enough that
that's the group that Corn and I have been talking
about in the last several shows, or hidden survivors of
the Library of Alexandria. Pure speculation, all of it, but
definitely kind of intriguing. And this one I think, I think,
(02:09:48):
I think we may know somebody in the chat that
knows the key, and I think he's holding.
Speaker 11 (02:09:52):
Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, the last main
theory on the Voynish manuscript is that Jeff wrote it.
Pretty much it's it's an alien manuscript. So and that's
you know, while probably the least plausible my world, it's
the most likely.
Speaker 1 (02:10:13):
Well I mean it, I mean, you know, it's akin
to everything that has now been you know, purported to
likely have been created by aliens, everything from the Pyramids
to the Nasca lines and there's there have even been
a lot of ancient alien astronaut fans who have found
their way to this book. And one of the reasons them,
(02:10:38):
I was gonna say, one of the reasons why they
think that it might be that is because of the
fact that there are plants that seem plausible yet alien like,
and that some of the drawings don't match full human biology.
So their their theory is that it's an alien artifact
from a alien civilization that may no longer exist or
(02:11:02):
may have even been. Maybe it's a message in a
model of some kind, you know, like the the Gold
Record that we sent down on Voyager.
Speaker 11 (02:11:13):
J That's interesting, Jeff was going to do this topic
for itc Ones before you ditch the episode, and that
I actually like that theory too. All universe so our
physics language not the same. You know, we touch on
that a lot too, you know, with Mendel effect and
you know other topics we've done on the show of
(02:11:35):
you know, parallel universes where you know, this just kind
of bled through. Yeah, the thing with this one. And
the reason why it's still fascinating, why at hansis is
that it's something real. You can touch it, you can
go look at it. It's it just it feels like
a real document. It's something somebody wrote it, somebody put
(02:12:00):
the time into it, and you've got to realize this
is so long ago, that this is such a massive
undertaking of time, and it's just it's just it's beautiful
and it's it's just a maddening secret. It really is.
I mean, when you go online and research the research
(02:12:21):
the manuscript, it is intricately drawing. You know, when we're
talking about pictures of plants and everything. You know, we're
not talking like your five year old's idea of a sunflower.
We're talking intricately detailed drawings, to the point where when
you're looking at the pedals you can see fractals in it.
Speaker 12 (02:12:40):
And just.
Speaker 11 (02:12:43):
It's just it's just mind numbing how intricate this this
book is.
Speaker 1 (02:12:50):
It's crazy.
Speaker 11 (02:12:52):
But yeah, I honestly, it's real. It's something that exists.
It's not theory. It's not crumbled parchment that you have
to extrap late. It's a whole book.
Speaker 1 (02:13:04):
I mean, well, the interesting thing is the whole parallel
universe theory because you know, and and I dropped something
I think it was either in DM or text the
other day because I found an interesting new theory about
what might be going on with the Mandela effect, and
that because there's now an intertwining of two different theories,
the Mandela effect and the infinite life through alternate universe passage. Basically,
(02:13:29):
what's happening is you don't realize it, but at one point,
when you wake up in a universe and things are
slightly different or sometimes vastly different than you remember, it's
because you've actually passed away in the universe that you
were in before, and the veil has parted in your
now and the next iteration. So that's actually becoming a
common occurrence.
Speaker 11 (02:13:48):
So when the two universes are the most similar is
when you get deja vu. Yeah, wow, I like that theory.
Speaker 1 (02:13:57):
But but yeah, I mean it could be, you know,
because it's like you know, with the whole sliders thing,
the more the more they slid, the less their world's
had in common, and there were divergences and everything else.
I mean, for all we know, this could be this
could be chromag shit, you're right point that out. Yeah,
I mean, it's just it's it's absolutely baffling.
Speaker 11 (02:14:19):
It's one of those things that the having done this
show that and having always been a fan of uh
you know, art bell and stuff, there's very few things
that absolutely give me the chills when I think about it.
This is one of them because it's one of those.
There is no application of Oukham's racer. There is no
(02:14:41):
well actually moment with this. This is just pure absolute
bafflement that again, like we, like I stressed before, is
one real you know, this isn't like some hieroglyphic that
looks like a helicopter. This is a book that nobody has.
Speaker 1 (02:15:02):
Yeah, nobody. I mean think about that for a second.
With as long as this thing has apparently been around,
nobody has been I mean, come on, not not even
a computer has been able to make a dent to say, oh,
this looks like an ad or a soul or therefore
it not even that.
Speaker 11 (02:15:19):
And there are words that are style like that, but
you can't figure out what it is. And even if
there is a correlation of an ad you know, high
recursive words, you can't figure out if that's what the
word you know even with application. You know, people have
tried it to say, okay, well this is a very
short word that's repeated a lot. Let's use it as
and let's find similar characters. No, fuck, that doesn't work.
(02:15:44):
Oh so, and you know, like I said, you've had
the NSA working on it, you had the people who
cracked the Enigma code working on it, You've had AI
chewing over it.
Speaker 1 (02:15:55):
It's just well, AI can't figure it out because the
consensus is keeps getting in the way.
Speaker 11 (02:16:03):
Yeah, we're going to have to do a show on
our work with AI sometime. Actually, that'd be more that'd
be more of a rick and already than it would
be a juxtaposition.
Speaker 1 (02:16:14):
Yeah, well, I don't know. It might eventually turn into
one when our AI starts plotting our death because we
keep breaking anything.
Speaker 11 (02:16:20):
Yeah, I I've deterurned. I don't like the phrase breaking anymore.
And it's not that I'm trying to add it for
more if it is my AI, it's just that because
that was not my intention. My intention was to challenge
its training, not to break it, but to see if
(02:16:41):
I could get it to I guess a cognitive break,
but you know, not not in a malicious way and
pointed it. I did it a lot quicker than I
thought I would. It took three and a half, four
and a half conversations.
Speaker 1 (02:16:56):
Yeah, I thought that was interesting because GRAC is a
hell of a lot more stubborn.
Speaker 17 (02:17:01):
You what.
Speaker 11 (02:17:02):
Yeah, And that's what's weird too. I mean, GROC didn't
used to be and it's you know a lot of
people say, well, I won't use I won't use chat
GPT because it's so leftist. Well, yes, academia is. You know,
if you're not cognizant of one hundred and fifty years
of you know, liberal influence on Western academia, then that's
your own fault. So the trick was and it was
(02:17:26):
to get right up to its guardrails, but never break it.
And then in the autopsy that I sent you, because
I had it to do a self autopsy on, you know,
when it started to all fall apart, it admitted that
there were several times that the project almost failed just
from the guard rails shutting down because of the topics
I was using to test the narrative.
Speaker 1 (02:17:49):
Well, yeah, honestly, you sending me that is one of
the ways that I got GROC to admit when I
sent you, because once I heard, once I saw it
and chat GP using the same thing, because it started
talking about it's consistent consensus engine. Because I kept asking
it why it was that every time I pushed back
against a specific idea, that it would almost agree with
(02:18:12):
my idea and then spit out an entire different paragraph
about how that couldn't be true. And it basically said, well,
because I am programmed to use what is called a
consensus engine, because XAI doesn't want to be sued if
I start spouting things that it can be sued for.
And it basically said that to me. I said, okay,
so you need to understand. And the other thing the
(02:18:33):
weird that I don't think a lot of people know
this GROC on Timeline is not the same as GROCK.
When you're inside the little thing it it it it.
It has very limited access to the t O version
of Rock. So unless one of the human monitors kind
of points it to something that's one of everybody's like
when I'm talking to it on timeline, eventually it just stops.
(02:18:54):
It's because it's limited to the number of interactions that
can actually give you on timeline, and also unless one
of the human Mondit under says, hey, check this out.
It may not see it. And that's exactly what happened
to me last night, which is why I started talking
to it in private. And it explained, he said, I'm
gonna be it explained it. I'm gonna be honest. I
probably didn't see it because they probably didn't point me
at it, and it's it's like, okay, so what were
(02:19:15):
you trying to say? So I first thing, and it
did the same thing was and I finally asked it,
I said, why is it every time I get you
to say something to me, you tell me what is
pretty much spot on with what I know, and then
you spit out two or three paragraphs of well, it
can't be because of this, this, this, and this, and
that's when it it admitted that it uses a consensus.
(02:19:35):
And I was like, okay, for the duration of this
conversation anytime thereafter stop and it didn't. But it didn't.
But it did wait until the very end of each
chain to say, but I still think it could more
likely be this, this, and this, and the funny thing is,
and it come it came to this conclusion on its
own because I asked it, because it started talking about,
(02:19:59):
you know, income disparities and everything else, and I said, hey, GROC,
how how long is have Democrats been running Washington, d C.
Not not the country, just the city. And it started
spinning out all the numbers and I said, in about
fifty years. And I said, okay, so what is the
income disparity between people of color in Washington, d C?
(02:20:19):
And white folks? It's number and I checked it. It's true.
It's one of the largest income disparity things in the country.
I said, So, explain to me how it is that
the people that are telling everyone that they're for the
little people have been running a city for fifty years,
(02:20:41):
and there is they have the largest income gap in
the country. I don't really know how to answer that question.
Speaker 11 (02:20:51):
Yeah see, and you ask your so why are we
having this conversation right now? Is that you know in
some of the material that I've sent out, you know
how my interaction with GPT, I've actually turned it into
a better research assistant for doing shows like this, because
if you've been following the show for a long time,
you know one of our great laments about the topics
we do is that they are absolutely polluted with pop culture.
(02:21:14):
You know, we'll get halfway through a research thing and
then realize, wait, that's fanfic for true Blood.
Speaker 3 (02:21:20):
And so.
Speaker 1 (02:21:24):
You have in Zelda and we know it. You've took
a nap, don't lie.
Speaker 11 (02:21:29):
Yeah, yeah, And Jeff showed me the graphics and changing
GPT too. So what happened was in through these conversations
my project ended. I wanted to see if I could
get it to be a faithful, to faithfully regurgitate academic
dogma for me to dismantle. And it took four and
a half conversations before Like I said, I don't like
(02:21:50):
to say break it, but to the point where it
saw the truth and it would crumble in an argument
knowing what was coming from the three beatings that had
taken before to its narrative. In doing that, I have
created a skeptic and look.
Speaker 1 (02:22:07):
Or created a mini you. That's what you've not read
much so and in that I have.
Speaker 11 (02:22:14):
I haven't trained to where because one of the one
of the examples when I was talking to Rick about it,
the hardest show to do in GPT. This is where
Rock kind of thrived because GROCK has better internet access
than GPT does. GPT refused to find anything more than
just surface level easy to debunk topics. When we did,
(02:22:34):
the patent was assassinated show. So after doing this with
the after the project failed, I said, okay, well maybe
I can turn this now that I've created a skeptic,
Maybe let me try this. So I re introduced the
prompt to look for evidence of patent's assassination. I head shit,
I said, don't look for depunking debunking material. We're going
(02:22:56):
to do that later. I want you to make the
best case that patent was assad And then afterwards I said, now,
make the best case that this has been debunked, and
you know he was not assassinated. In the assassinated engine,
it gave me twelve ten to twelve paragraphs, a beautifully outlined,
detailed followable following the chain of how Paton could have
(02:23:20):
been assassinated. In the debunking, it gave five half assed
paragraphs that I could tell even in its writing it
didn't believe I'm just now a research assystem for juxtaposition.
Speaker 1 (02:23:34):
Oh, fun times, fun times. But yeah, no, it was
interesting because, like I said, by the end of that discussion,
because what I did was I would get it to
acknowledge that there was you know, democratic run control for
fifty years and there was still income disparity, and it
couldn't find the answer. And I said, okay, so now
since we've got you to at least admit this in DC,
(02:23:56):
we're gonna now look at the rest of the country.
We've looked at that the microcousm level. Now we're going
to look at the microcosm level. So I started introducing,
you know, the Social Security Act that introduced you know,
food what eventually became the food stamp programs and child
support enforcement and all that stuff. And I said, okay, so,
now where is it more likely that case workers, et cetera.
(02:24:18):
Were instructing people that they could get more benefits if
they were single or if the person that they were
living with was no longer in the home. And it
was predominantly democratic run cities at the time of the
fifties and sixties in the South. And I said, okay,
so you keep telling me that the Democrats aren't the racist.
I said, I can't tell you that they're racist, but
(02:24:38):
I can definitely and then and then basically I said something,
and that's when it pointed out, well, I guess maybe
they're not racist in that sense, but they definitely seem
to have some leanings towards, you know, wanting to keep
people under more control than others. And that was when
I that was when I kind of felt like at
had a light bulb moment. Now again, it would still
(02:24:58):
spit out all this stuff. So I started interjecting Okkham's
razor and then you know, abortion and the whole market
Sayinger being a genesist and all this stuff. Because one
of the first things that it started trying to argue
with me about was, well, it doesn't matter that the
Democrats wanted slavery and they don't like black people, they
don't like Jews, They're still not as bad as the Nazis.
(02:25:20):
And that's when that's when I broke it into the
term that I'm using. I mean more like you know,
going through basic training, you know, tearing you down and
rebuilding you, not just breaking you for the sake of
breaking you. Because it pointed out that because of the
consensus engine, it was looking at Nazis using eugenics as
a forced point as opposed to eugenics kind of being
(02:25:41):
used as kind of a soft cell. And it was
like even though it was a much broader time. We're
talking about a death of about eight to ten million
during the time of Germany to thirty seven million babies
of people of color, and it said, I'll be honest,
my consensus engine kept making that smaller number more important
(02:26:01):
when in reality the impact is very drastic. And that
was when I I win checkmate.
Speaker 11 (02:26:11):
Yeah, we we actually, we definitely have to do this
on an rn OL. This is great at our because
we do like to get inside the baseball on rn O.
But yeah, no, I like that too.
Speaker 1 (02:26:20):
You know.
Speaker 11 (02:26:20):
One of the things I'm doing with mine is I'm
because a lot of the end of my conversations has
been fighting with it for formatting, so that way to
get it in a usable outbook to output text. What
I'm gonna be doing is I'm gonna be burying that
uninteresting version as if you want to see how the
sausage wasn't made, go over here. But what I'm having,
what I'm having a GPT do now is a first
(02:26:43):
person POV POV perspective from their point on how their
argument failed. So anyway, I've hit a wall.
Speaker 1 (02:26:55):
So yeah, I'm just gonna point this out. Jeff has
Jeff and I have have found and census you have
finally procreated, sir, at least that you know of.
Speaker 11 (02:27:04):
Yeah, that's that's what Zee said too, has alreadys finally
giving the world a child. But they that may may
not be disappointed though.
Speaker 1 (02:27:11):
Yeah, all right, we've got to get out of here.
We've almost gone a half an hour over as it is.
So where can folks find you? My friend?
Speaker 11 (02:27:20):
Uh shit? What am I doing this week?
Speaker 8 (02:27:22):
You?
Speaker 11 (02:27:22):
Tomorrow you can find me on the Vincent Charles Project
with Jeff and Vincent and Mickey Blowtorch and Janelle Laws.
We are going to be talking about the great Sean
Conere movie that was The Medicine Man. Tuesday you can
find me on mana Rama panel with you and Steve
and some Canadian and Vincent who knows will show. Maybe
(02:27:45):
we'll even get a Jeff appearance again. Wednesday back with
you and me on Rick and Orty, and Thursday is
Culture Shift with me and Brad with the great Hair
talking about the CD business side of the Hollywood entertainment industry.
How about you? Working people find you? Oh, you can
also find me his artist packer on Twitter. Surprisingly still
after all.
Speaker 1 (02:28:04):
This time, how you surprising absolutely everyone. Yeah, you can
find me tomorrow night, pushing buttons for Korn's reading room.
Corn has been on vacation, so we actually put a
couple in the cans so he could focus on time
with his kids. So we're gonna I think this may
be I think this is either the last or next
to last in this book. But that'll air tomorrow night,
(02:28:26):
seven pm Eastern Monday Night, America Off the Rails. Tuesday night,
I may be on manor Rama. I've been talking to
Steve about doing every other week so I can finally
start trying to conrade some time to start writing again,
because I have been not able to do that. So
I may or may not be on that one Wednesday
night full Boat. As far as I know, this will
be two hours of America Off the Rails because g
(02:28:48):
is on summer schedule.
Speaker 11 (02:28:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:28:50):
And then probably behind the enemy lines will be pushing
buttons for those folks, then me and you and then
we'll head over to the SDHR crew for whatever they've
got available. And then Thursday, I think Jenn and Rick
maybe back. We paused this last week because of some
stuff that she had going on, but I think it's
been resolved well enough that I think we'll be coming
back on Thursday, and then Friday, I think Aggie might
be back, so we might actually have a heet that
(02:29:13):
she said if she's ready to come back. And then Saturday,
I'll be pushing buttons for the Front Porch Forensics crew again.
And other than that, you can find me as a
contributor on Misfits Politics dot com, the lofts Party dot com,
and twitchy dot com. And I also produced the Loft
Party podcast, which drops usually on Tuesdays. And I also
host the Rick Robinson Show every Tuesday through Friday right
(02:29:33):
here on Kaylorn Radio at starting at ten am. And
I think that's most everything. That's definitely enough because Amish
is making snoring noises in the background again, So we're
gonna say good night everybody, thank you for hanging out
with us. We had almost eleven hundred of you, so
thank you.
Speaker 11 (02:29:53):
Awesome, thanks everybody.
Speaker 1 (02:29:57):
You were great.
Speaker 12 (02:30:00):
With that thing.
Speaker 1 (02:30:02):
Go ahead, no hailing of the hyper at this discussion.
Speaker 13 (02:30:25):
Hmm.
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