Into The Fire - Doug Chachere Jr.

This Friday, August 8, 2025, episode #61, I am honored to introduce, my friend Doug Chachere Jr. He was born in Creole, Louisiana. in 1966, then raised in Opelousas, Louisiana Can you get more Cajun that that, lol...
His earliest memories are tied to the family business, Tony Chachere's Creole Seasoning, which began production in 1972. At the tender age of six, he recalls weekend gatherings where family members pitched in to make and pack seasoning cases. A pivotal memory involves their uncle Alex Chachere gifting them and their younger brother each $5 for their efforts – a gesture that instilled a sense of ownership and pride in the brand that continues to drive their passion today.
Doug is the third generation to contribute to the family's success, while the fourth generation is already actively involved in the business. After years as a regional sales manager, Doug transitioned into direct work with brand influencers, leveraging their knack for connecting with people – a skill they value as a "collector of people". Since 1993, Doug and his family have been based in the Houston area, driven by a desire to carve his own mark on the company's enduring legacy.
Doug's narrative paints a vivid picture of a life interwoven with family, flavor, and a deep-seated pride in a brand that has brought the taste of Louisiana to kitchens worldwide, and much more...


 

Episode Transcript

(00:34):
Hey, welcome, Welcome the endof the fire. It's finally here.
We finally are on the air,and this is the beginning of hopefully a
very very long journey. So Iwelcome everybody from wherever you're from. And
the goal today is to have fun. And we're gonna have a really good

(00:55):
time, I hope, and andit's just gonna get better from here.
And the further we go with theshow, the more comfortable that I am
going to become, no doubt.So first off, I wanted to to
just kind of do a special thanksreally to to a few people that are
responsible really for a lot of this. This is kind of like a podcast,
but in reality, I'm gonna it'sreally a radio show. And the
really the reason why there's a radioshow going on here is because there's a

(01:19):
lot of people going on in thisdeal. And I want to I want
to really mention Chris DePerno first ofall. Without Chris, Chris basically is
the one that I did in aninterview, and he's the host on I
Detective, one of a few hostson that show, and he's kind of
the main guy on I Detective that'son another day of the week. And
without without Chris, I did aninterview with him, and Chris uh apparently,

(01:42):
you know, he liked what heheard and so forth, and he
gave me this incredible opportunity that I'mgoing to take full advantage of. Not
only do am I going to thankChris, but I want to thank the
Bill Forte, who is the programdirector with kg R A and and you
know, I've had many discussions withboth Bill and Chris along the way.
And that video, which is reallysuper cool as far as I'm concerned,

(02:05):
was a basically between the two ofus and myself and the third person that
I'm going to mention, which isAmanda Karan and she's the producer. And
so what does that mean is sheis the lady that's actually she's behind the
curtain and she's actually back there makingsure that everything that happens goes to plan,

(02:28):
like if I have pictures that Ineed to have thrown up there or
videos and stuff like that, andthat's what she does. So she's actually
all the way up in Nova Scotia, Canada, which is really cool.
So we've got people in the aboutof New York, We've got her in
Nova Scotia, We've got a lotof people that are responsible for all of
this happening, and I think it'spretty cool. So that's kind of what's
up. I wouldn't get too attachedto the song, even though it's super

(02:51):
cool. I've got a guy bythe name of Scotty Austin, formerly from
Saving Abel, that is actually writinga piece for the for this for this
show, and I've heard parts ofit and it sounds just epic. And
so that's that's going to be inthe future, I'm sure down the line,
but I'm not rushing him. Iwant it to be just perfect.
So he's doing his thing and he'ssuper cool, and so that's basically that

(03:14):
this is what this show is goingto be about. The show is going
to be you know, we're goingto focus on true crime, and we're
going to talk about you know,current events and things like that, but
we're also going to talk to interestingpeople. And one of the things that
I really like about this show is, especially after talking to Bill and Chris
as they said, hey man,this is your show, so you can

(03:34):
do whatever you want and you cantalk about whatever you want. And so
that's one of the things that Ithink. I think is super cool is
that I've kind of got creative controlas to what direction we want to go.
But I will tell you that oneof the directions that I want to
go, so to speak, isa direction where I want to talk to
people that are movers and shakers andpeople that are going in very very positive

(04:00):
directions in the world of criminal justiceand or other areas in the world,
and they're really contributing to the restof us. And that's really what I
want to focus on. So withthat being said, I want to tell
you just briefly about myself in theevent that you don't know who I am.
Once again, my name is JasonWhite. I'm going to be the
main host of the show. ButI'll tell you this, and for a

(04:20):
lot of people that have kind ofhad teasers along the way on some of
my social media platforms, is thatmy co host, also known as my
wingman, is going to be RonnieLeatherman. And he's somebody that a lot
of you are familiar with because heand I have both been on the show
called The First forty eight for nearlya decade, and we've been on there

(04:41):
not only on that show, butwe've actually been on after the first forty
eight, which is a spin offfrom the first forty eight. If you
haven't catched that show, if you'venever heard of that show, then you
had to have been living under arock, because that thing has been on
on cable TV as one of thenumber one cable TV reality polase shows since
two thousand and four. It's beenon forever. Tulsa's been on there forever.

(05:03):
We've got more episodes on that showthan any other city since since two
thousand and four, so we've beenon there since twenty fourteen, etc.
But Ronnie will be joining us.His daughter had something big going on tonight
and I didn't want to interrupt that, and I told him, don't worry
about it. Well that's more importantthan this, and I'll handle it for
the first night, but be lookingfor him. He will be on here

(05:26):
and it'll be a lot of fun, etc. So, once again,
to tell a little bit about myself, I've been a police officer with the
City of Tulsa for twenty five years. This is not affiliated with that in
any way, shape or form.I just wanted to make a mention.
They didn't tell me I had tosay this, But I'm just mentioning that
anything in everything that I say hereis not necessarily endorsed by the Tulsa Police
Department. But I am a copwith Tulsa Police and I've been here for

(05:47):
over twenty five years. I've workedin a variety of assignments and that has
included undercover narcotics, street crimes.I was a school resource officer. I've
worked as a crime scene detective,but most of my career, actually over
half of that has been in homicide, where I have been a part of

(06:09):
somewhere in the neighborhood of probably sevenhundred homicides total. I've assisted on around
six hundred and I've been the leadon about one hundred and seven, so
I've been around the block. I'vebeen doing that. And I also while
I was a crisis negotiator for alittle over ten years, about ten and
a half years, and I've donea lot of things in that capacity.
And once again, we have hadthe honor and privilege to be a part

(06:31):
of the first forty eight, whichhas allowed us to be in many places,
many of people's homes, on theirtelevision sets, and so a lot
of people have got to get toknow us throughout the world. Actually,
so that's been really cool. Thisguy that I'm going to bring on here,
he's a super cool guest. I'vegot already. I've got probably twenty

(06:53):
to twenty five guests lined up,and some of these people you have heard
of, and some of the otherones you may not have heard of,
but you're gonna you're gonna be reallyreally impressed after you get to meet them,
uh through this broadcast broadcast, becauseI've picked people that I'm still shocked
that some of these individuals have actuallyagreed to be a part of this show.

(07:14):
I would encourage you that in listeningto this, if you thought of
somebody or you know of somebody thatthat actually is somebody that you feel would
be a really good contrabt, youknow, uh, guest that would contribute
in a good way to the show. I mean, throw their names down
and and tell me a little bitabout them, and I may reach out
to them and see if they wouldbe somebody for down the line that we
might be able to incorporate into theshow. And that's what I'm looking for.

(07:36):
I'm looking for for superstars. Peoplethat are people that are just really
making a difference and impressive people thatthat really bring a lot to the table,
and that's really what's what it's about. And that leads me to this
to this guy that we're going totalk about right now, and that is
that is Brian Seerber. And I'mgoing to read his I'm gonna read his
bio for you, and I thinkafter you hear this, you're gonna you're

(07:56):
gonna see how impressive this guy reallyis. Brian Seerber is the Deputy Director
of the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics.Immediately prior to that, Serber served as
the Bureau's General Council as well asthe first Assistant District Attorney for the twelfth
Judicial District for Rogers, Mays,and Craig Counties here in Oklahoma. Serber

(08:20):
was formerly a special Agent with theOklahoma Bureau of Narcotics assigned to the Tulsa
office. Serber graduated from Oklahoma StateUniversity in nineteen ninety three and from the
University of Oklahoma College of Law innineteen ninety six. After graduating from law
school, Serber served as an assistantDistrict Attorney and director of the eighth District

(08:41):
Drug Task Force for eight years.In two thousand and four, He went
on to work for the Oklahoma Bureauof Narcotics as a Deputy General Council,
primarily supervising and prosecuting wire tap casesand overseeing practitioners registered with the Bureau.
And I'm here to tell that ifyou've ever dealt with a wiretap case there,

(09:03):
they're super complicated. So's that's impressivein and of itself. He also
has He also was appointed a specialagent or a special Assistant District Attorney in
two thousand and four, as wellas a Special Assistant Attorney General in two
thousand and five, twenty and fifteenin twenty and seventeen. In addition to
his legal duties, Serber was commissionedas an agent in April of two thousand

(09:26):
and six, shortly after being appointedGeneral Counsel. In late two thousand and
six, he was reassigned from theLegal division to become a full time special
agent. He is currently a specialAssistant US Attorney for the Northern District of
Oklahoma, and he has prosecuted thousandsof narcotics cases and was the two thousand

(09:48):
and one and two thousand and onetwo two Association of Oklahoma Narcotic Enforcers State
Prosecutor of the Year, the twothousand and five Distinguished Adjut Faculty Award winner
for Northern Oklahoma College, the twentyeleven to twelve Association of Oklahoma Narcotics Enforcer
State Officer of the Year, thetwelve to thirteen recipient of Association of Oklahoma

(10:13):
Narcotic Enforcer's Outstanding Achievement Award, andthe twenty fifteen Rogers County Co Prosecutor of
the Year. And I'm almost done, and right now, that right there,
in and of itself, is acareer. But as we continue on
here, he has also taught overtwo hundred seminars, actually he's got in
here in parentheses three hundred and fiftyseminars in eighteen states, primarily in the

(10:35):
areas of Fourth Amendment and narcotics laws. Server also authored the Investigator's Guide to
Search and Seizure as well as theProsecutor's Guide to Fourth and Fifth Amendment Motions
to Suppress, both published by theRegional Organized Crime Information Center, and he
is also the co author of theOklahoma Drug Prosecutor's Desk Reference. I'm sure

(10:58):
that's riveting reading, but very important. And Serber also was the former editor
of the police papers published by theOklahoma Bureau of Narcotics. Cerber has also
written numerous articles for law enforcement publications, and he is the author of the
number one best selling book called Injusticefor All the Familiar Fallacies of Criminal Justice

(11:22):
Reform. And with all of that, I need a little bit of oxygen
probably, And I also I alsorealize how much I need to pick up
and step up my game to evenbe I'm just impressed all to all,
more than you would even know.So I want to welcome Brian Serber.

(11:43):
Hey, Jason, I'm great notto mention you're a good friend of mine.
So good friend. Well, acouple of things. You know.
The co author of the Deak referencewas probably helps with insomnia. The other
the co author is actually your brother. He's the other one that wrote that
with me. And I got aquestion. So I saw this intro video.
Is that intro video yours for theshow? Yes? It is,

(12:07):
okay, And there was actually I'mpartly I put a lot of those ideas
in their heads. And then andthen Bill, Bill, the main guy
that's behind the scenes, he actuallyuh he put that together in like ten
minutes. It was amazing to watchhim at work, but he put that
together. My question is in thevideo there's this ripped detective and a short
sleeved shirt interview on somebody from isthat you Jason? Yeah, okay,

(12:31):
I figured that was you, Andyeah, that's made for sure, that's
me for sure. Now the reasonwhy I brought you on here, and
really we talked about this earlier todayand I wanted to make mention of this.
I just read your resume, yourbio basically, and in reading that,
you are one of those type ofpeople, Brian, that that I
really look up to. I mean, you are that's somebody that is making

(12:52):
a difference in the world of criminaljustice, especially not only in the state
of Oklahoma really but throughout this country. And man, can you imagine what
life would be like if everybody thatwe encounter out there in the world of
criminal justice was, you know,motivated to do to do more. And
you have just done a mother loadand I think that you uh, And

(13:13):
I'm hoping to inspire some people.That's kind of the big thing. And
I like to inspire and motivate peoplewhen I'm doing my teaching, and that's
something that I would like to heara little bit about how did you get
to this point to do all ofthis stuff? And you just tell us
about that. Well, there's probablytwo parts to that. The first thing

(13:35):
is I really enjoy just speaking aboutit. I mean, I just I
like on issues that relate to publicsafety and police officer police officers and prosecutors.
I really just enjoyed talking about thosethings and kind of always have and

(13:56):
I know you do too. It'sjust a I just enjoy it as something
that I've always liked doing. Ofcourse, you and I have cross paths
I don't know how many times atdifferent conferences beyond just when we're both working
in Tulsa and crossing paths and casesand just kind of collaborating and partnering up

(14:18):
on things. You know, willsee each other in other states sometimes,
and so I've really enjoyed it.But currently, I mean that's you know,
I'm coming up on. I've doneover twenty I guess twenty eight and
a half years now, but I'vedone either as a prosecutor or a police
officer or you know. Of course, now I'm in an administration, which

(14:41):
means I do a lot of meetingsand budgeting, but all of it at
least tied to public safety, andif at least for me personally, I
think you probably would agree with this. But I'm really down with the public
safety mission. I think that whatpolice office, some prosecutors do. I

(15:01):
think it's an essential function of asafe society UH and has been for centuries.
I think it's the most noble ofprofessions. And and because I've had
this unique chance and really blessing tohave worked in a UH in a DA's

(15:22):
office as a prosecutor, which isa job that I loved, UH,
to work as a an agent withO b N for all those years,
and to do that, and andout I had assignments with a Martial Service
and HSI and UH de e A, and just was very blessed to UH
to do that. Because I've kindof danced in UH and in both arenas,

(15:48):
I kind of understand UH the demandseach each one has, UH I'm
sorry, the the challenges each onefaces as they kind of tie together.
And so I just for me personally, I think it's there's I mean,
anything I think any peace officer doesat any time. I think it furthers
that public safety mission's got to getolder, Like you and I and you

(16:11):
kind of think about, Okay,what am I going to do with my
time? And for me, Ithink that as much as I can speak
about topics that help officers do theirjob, support them, and I think
that's one of those things that it'snot necessarily a you know, a widget
you can count, but to me, it's kind of one of the more

(16:33):
rewarding things. I think that.And and so it's not just talking about
the big topics like complace conspiracies andwire taps and things like that, but
just basic aspects of the Fourth Amendment, Miranda to an academy a brand new
cadets. That to me is importanttoo because those are things they'll take with
them kind of their entire career.So it's kind of supporting them in what

(16:56):
they're doing. So it's kind ofhow come to it, And I just
really really enjoy that. Well,let me ask you this. So,
So you said you've been on fortwenty eight years. I've been on for
twenty five and a half years roughly, and and you mentioned it yourself.
You've got a really unique perspective becauseyou were a special agent, You've worked

(17:18):
as the you've been on both ends. Man, you've worked as a special
agent, and you've worked with districtattorneys, and then you've also been the
district attorney first assistant up in RogersCounty where I worked with you up there
and lost. And now as you'remaybe Amanda will kind of work with you
on that. You are you good? Can you hear me? Amanda?

(17:48):
Can you hear me? So,as we're trying to get that fixed,
this is part of the thing thatwe'll get these things ironed out, of
course, and this happened when you'retalking about online kind of deals. But
uh, while while we're while we'rewhile we're getting that ironed out, one
of the things that I was gonnawe'll get to talking to him in a

(18:11):
minute. That's the unique thing aboutBrian that I really love is the fact
that he was a special agent.He also was a district attorney and and
he has worked on both ends ofthe of the spectrum as far as,
uh, having to go out thereand be on search horns and kicking indoors
and then going from there and actuallyprosecuting cases, which is a super super

(18:36):
rare thing to to come across inthis type of in the in this world.
So, uh, that's just kindof part of it. Uh,
I'm going to talk to Brian herewhen he comes back on here, and
I want to ask him. I'mgoing to ask him kind of where he
here he comes he's coming back onnow. Can you hear us? Now,
Brian, are you back? Ican hear you. Can you hear

(19:00):
me? Okay, great, yep, I can hear you. So.
So one of the things that Iwas kind of talking about while we were
off there is that you bring sucha unique perspective of you know that you
were an agent, you were kickingindoors and and and then you were actually
you you were working with prosecutors,and then you were a prosecutor to boot.
So kind of the question I havesince you've been You've been involved in

(19:22):
the industry for twenty eight and someodd years, and we talked a little
bit about this earlier today, isyou know what, first of all,
what are the agents like that aredifferent? What about today? I mean
the agents that are coming out today, they I know that they're different than
they are from twenty years ago,just because the world has evolved in different
ways. And that's one part ofthe question. And then that also I'm

(19:44):
kind of interested to know where doyou really see us going in the next
twenty years? I mean, whatdo you see us twenty years from now
down the line? So you know, the gosh, the whole game has
changed. It's changed. You knowthat there was kind of a time where
for me where I went back toa DA's officer for a few years and
went back to the bureau and backwhen I left, weed was illegal and

(20:10):
came back, came back and uh, you know, we's been legalized,
and there's this fast black market whichis about three fourths of my inbox on
it on a day to day basissince I've been back at obi En,
So you know, there are justit's it's different now than it was before.

(20:30):
There's a huge and I think it'sit's I've seen it both with in
DA's offices and with prosecutors and withpolice officers. There's just a huge recruiting
problem. We are not having thenumber of applicants to do that, and
which is it's kind of hard forme to understand, probably you two,

(20:51):
because I feel so. I mean, I didn't want to necessarily be a
police officer kind of fell into it. I didn't want to be a prosecutor
necessarily it's going to go into businessand got a job in the DA's office,
and it's I've been so fortunate touh uh to be in the profession,
to be around the people and uhand to do that and so you

(21:12):
know, it's just, uh,it's it's a little bit harder. I
mean, you know, uh,I go to give presentations and Jason,
there are people in my classes thatwere not born when I started in the
DA's office in nineteen ninety six,and it's just it's hard to kind of

(21:32):
just put you know, because youknow, we got uh you know,
started we got a calling card anda pager because you know, I was
in a DA's officer. It wasa long distance and if you the only
phones around the office with a bigbag phone with the Drug Task Force supervisor
had that had to worry about peakand non peak and roaming. And now
we've got just this kind of community, this communication where there's just this constant

(21:56):
digital communication. I remember when Iwas at the bureau, whenever I got
email on BlackBerry, like this isDick Tracy stuff here. Can't believe this.
And so it's really changed. Uh. I think he got locked up
again. Unfortunately, having a littlebit of difficulty. I'll tell you what,

(22:18):
as far as one of the thingsthat I remember back in the day
is the next tells and the chirpingand and things like that, And he
said it, he said it justa moment ago that one of the problems
that we're having right now is therecruitment, the recruitment to get individuals that
are willing to sign up for policedepartments, et cetera. He just messaged

(22:40):
me and said that he'd got kickedoff, so he's trying to he's trying
to get restarted up and so forth. And I'm sure he'll be able to
do that. But if you,if you're out there in the world and
you're interested, or you you haveever been interested in a career, an
exciting career in the criminal justice field, I would strongly encourage you to look
into all of the various agencies thathe just out there. Uh, there's

(23:00):
plenty of them, and actually therehas. There is no time like the
present, both state, local,and federal, to to look into becoming
a law enforcement officer. If you'velived a relatively decent life and and haven't
ridden around with Jesse James, Imean, it's it's it's a lot easier
now. Welcome back. Welcome back, looks like can you hear me?

(23:25):
I could hear you? Just fine, yeah, absolutely, okay, So
my can at work update uh withoutany it just decided to do that,
and so hey it happens. Noworries, no worries. You've put me
on the spot and you've made adlib and and that's okay because I can
talk a lot. So uh No, I was just talking to him and

(23:45):
mentioned it's something. So so you'resaying that it's hard to get people to
sign up for these for these jobsand stuff, and we're not getting we're
not getting applic consideredors running through thedoors. Yeah, and and and then
you get like me and you,Jason, and and I can't manage the
technology to actually do a digital broadcast. And it's showing me if a,
I'll show you my computer, it'supdtting the firmware right now ten percent.

(24:07):
Well that's that's actually that's actually whyuh, that's actually why I have Amanda
here. That's that's behind the curtainto make sure that everything kind of goes
without a hitch anyway, So nono worries. So you say it so
so the people of yesterday were basicallyI mean, I know that agents were
different. I mean, for sure, we we we've evolved now, we

(24:27):
have body cams, We've got alot of different things that are out there
and so forth. But but inas far as where do you see this
going in fifteen to twenty years,I mean, well, actually, before
we mentioned that, real quick,I want to I want to throw one
thing in there is the fentanyl youknow what is finnayl and and and and
you know the hype that goes onbecause we hear about it on the news

(24:48):
all the time. And I knowthe answer to this, but just for
the listener, that's that's a seriousdeal, right yeah. And so finnyl
is is about, you know,fifty times as powerful as heroine heroin is
uh, you know, heroin andmorphine they come from the poppy plant.
So it requires the farming of youknow, of the poppy happens almost exclusively

(25:11):
overseas in Asia. And finnyl iscompletely synthetic, which means it's it's manufactured
at a you know, without anyneed for farming. Everything can be done
kind of in a lab and Uand so it kind of went in phases
I mean, if you want toknow kind of how we got there,
Uh, there was a time probablyI don't know, ten maybe ten twelve

(25:34):
years ago that prescription drug abuse nationwidewas the number one kind of drug problem
that we had, just the divertingof opioid pharmaceutical medications uh to illegal illicit
use. And that's what we saw. It was. It was that's kind
of when that started. We kindof when we really started the overdose epidemic

(25:56):
that we had, or just theyjust skyrocketed. And so that happens and
then we catch up to it andwe kind of just get with some of
these prescription monitoring programs and a lotof education with doctors because they're getting from
pharmaceason doctors, and uh, wedid kind of got to handle on that
well. Right when that happens,then the cartels essentially go and all right,

(26:27):
we're hitting hitting a weird spot.I don't know what's going on.
Maybe there's maybe it's oh here wego. Yeah I could I can,
yeah, I could hear you Jasonback, can you can you hear me
off? Yeah? Yeah, you'regood? Can you okay? Yep?
I don't know where I had cutout, but and so then we get
the fennel and it's so and itstarted off with kind of the they call

(26:49):
them, you know, the bluesand just those oxy code on thirties that
were kind of that's kind of whereit started. But it's been an aulterated
the methamphetamine. You'll see it inmarijuana THHC cartridges and the vapes and so
it is just something that's being donekind of at the super lab level.

(27:10):
And then there's just kind of likelike always just kind of this competition to
do it. We've recently seen we'lltranquille and it's been it's kind of been
this kind of called trank and anduh and on the street and it's it's
been used kind of as a cuttingagent in fentanyl, but it's actually being

(27:33):
done at the super lambs because atthe seizures at the port of entry actually
are containing xylazine. So we're havingkind of a skyrock and the increase for
xyolazine all of ours in Oklahoma sofar, U the overdoses and the fatal
overdoses where xylazine contributed were also fentanyls. It was mixed in there as well.
But that that's just kind of thisthis newest thing that we're getting.

(27:56):
It's just just highly you know,OVID addiction is so addictive. Uh.
And so that's what we've kind ofseen. And it's it's it's it's it's
done differently by the cartels than whenwe see kind of methanphetamine uh and and
how it's kind of marketed and andcocaine that they're methan kochary similar but but

(28:22):
Finnel heroines are just kind of donein a different way, uh And how
they kind of set that up anddo that. So it's been a it's
been a challenge for sure, youknow. And and a lot of this
is coming over the border, ofcourse. And it's and and if I'm
not mistaken, it originates from China, if if that's what I've heard,
so and I and the drug worldis not really my thing, but but

(28:44):
so so but I but it ismy thing in a sense because a lot
of these deaths and technically on thein the state of Oklahoma, it's on
the books that you could theoretically becharged with murder if if you are an
individual that sells drugs to somebody andthey end up dying from from an overdose
from that drug. Is that correct? I mean, that is correct if
I'm not mistaken. Okay, it'sbasically failing murder law, duy And I

(29:08):
know that me being a homicide detective, and I mean maybe somebody's going,
what this guy doesn't know that,well, you know, I don't really
deal That's not the type of murdersthat I'm dealing with. That's more of
a narcotics investigator kind of a thingwhere they dive into that. There's no
way in the world we could possiblystay up on those type of murder investigations.
But what I'm getting at is myquestion is is that as potent as

(29:30):
finanyl is and it's coming over there, I think a lot of times a
lot of these overdoses. Isn't ittrue that that finanyl is laced on a
lot of these drugs and the individualsthat are taking it don't even know that
there's fentanyl on there. Yes,yeah, it can be okay, and
they use pill presses and it's sowhat would be the point what's the point

(29:51):
I mean of these guys that arebasically relating these things with it when they
know that they may die from it. If that makes sense, you know,
if that's That's the thing that's kindof hard for me to wrap my
head around is why why would theybe sending these drugs over here with finanyl
laced on stuff when they don't reallyknow and it just kills off the customer

(30:11):
base, you would think, Imean, that's just my that's my thought.
A couple of things. Initially,fentanyl was it's you can oh,
okay, okay. Initially it wasit was it was sold as counterfit heroin.

(30:34):
I remember we had a case onetime where we thought the people in
Boston ordered thirty pounds of heroin andpull it off and it's actually thirty pounds
of a fentanyl and so uh soyou'll have that at times. And then
it was they were kind of likewhen people try to sell pills on the
street, the oxycodone thirty milli grandoxy codons that were called the thirties.

(30:55):
It was just done as counterfeit pillsto kind of just do that. And
again, you don't know how muchof fentinels in there. It's obviously not
done at a quality control level.But then get to this like why we've
seen it with lace and myth amphetamineand why would you put a central nervous
system depressant into a stimulant. Andthe really only reason is it is it

(31:15):
is if someone's doing meth amphetamine anice that comes from over the border in
Mexico, well if they use ifthey have fitnel in there, that they
can easily get addicted to it,and they've actually expanded their customer base.
And so it's it's there's a numberof So what what I'm just curious is

(31:38):
to I mean, I don't evenknow if you can even answer this.
And hopefully you're going to be backfloating back in when when I when I
get done with this and you're ableto hear me, but what you know,
so, I mean, I don'teven know that you can even answer
this. What uh, what effortsare being done really that that if you
can even speak on it, toto actually kind of go after these super

(31:59):
lab And are these super lambs kindof like the Breaking Bad super lab that
we we you know, we sawon Netflix where you have, you know,
Breaking Bad? Is that the typeof super labs that we're talking about?
And do those exist? I'm surethey do. I'm sure they exist
right here. Right for the mostpart, your super labs is going to
be all south of the border.Yeah, we don't have really. The
only thing we see now on thelab side or what we call we call

(32:21):
them conversion labs. And they mightproduce the metha fetamine hydrochlora, which is
kind of metha fetamine in the powderform. They'll dissolve it in a in
a liquid and water ship it overeasier to conceal. This looks like just
kind of some kind of cloudy water. Then there's just kind of a drying
process, you know, get buckets. So we call them conversion labs.
It's not technically if you want toget geek out, it's not a manufacturing

(32:44):
because it's not a chemical synthesis.Uh. But you know, all the
labs are south. We don't reallyhave. You know, there were times
we have the big labs the phenolto prop and one kind of back in
the nineties, but and some withUncle feshion meth labs before two thoutan and
four. But currently we really don'thave any of those. It's all done
south of the border. Okay,now I want to mention real quick.

(33:06):
You know you I'd mentioned in yourbio that number one best selling book of
yours and it's number one best sellingfor a reason. It's the book that's
called Injustice for all the familiar fallaciesof criminal justice reform. Tell us a
little bit about that and why thisbook should be in our library at home.
Well so, but probably about fivesix years ago, and in kind

(33:32):
of my journey in public safety,I got into the leadership our of our
State and Arcotics Association. I taughtthere. It's a conference we have.
You've taught there several times, andI had given presentations at a conference and
be five or six on the peoplethere, and I got on leadership and
then and one of our missions isis kind of look at how do we

(33:53):
support public safety? And that's kindof when this criminal justice reform stuff started,
And so I kind of focused moreinstead of kind of the the nuts
and bolts things that you see withI'm trying to log on here, some
of my computer just finished updating.Beyond just kind of the Fourth Amendment stuff

(34:15):
and things like that that I've donein the past, is more kind of
on the policy basis and just kindof arguing the importance of, you know,
the policy and just where that happens. So I kind of started to
seeing the arguments for that, andthe short story how I got into the
book is I was on a vacationwith my wife and I've kind of always

(34:37):
been, as a nerd, beeninto kind of economic theorists. I'll kind
of read their books, and I'vealways I've heard about a guy named Friedrich
Kayak who wrote a book called TheRoad to Serve Them and essentially was kind
of making the case for a freedomand free market. And his whole point
was post World War Two, therewas a lot of propaganda and lies that

(34:58):
went out to promote kind of acollectivist socialist ideal take away individual freedom.
And he identifies kind of where thatis and the emotion picture, industry,
radio academia, what they did,and exactly how they just kind of redefined
things and couch terms and just tokind of promote these what he believed to
be nonsense ideas. Of course,I'd kind of do too, and I

(35:21):
was reading that on vacation with mywife, and I said, this is
exactly what we're seeing at these legislativebodies and these arguments made in my criminal
justice form. She said, onceyou write a book, so I kind
of that kind of start. Isaid, well, I think I will,
I outlined it and just went,yeah, sure, that's easy.
I'll just whip out a book foryou. Yeah. So thirteen months later
I had the manuscript to the copyeditor and had done that. So of

(35:45):
course, the interesting thing is themanuscript was due see December of twenty twenty,
and here I'm writing this book.I kind of I started it the
November before. And the thesis ofmy book is essentially, if you lay
off of enforcement, and the enforcementcould be you know, legalizing something,

(36:07):
decriminalizing something, it could be aprosecutor not filing charges of policy, but
you lay off of enforcing the law, whether you change the law or doing
enforcements on the books. If youlay off of that and curtail it,
bad things will happen. Then wehave the summer of twenty twenty with all
the George Floyd and all these effortsto defund the police and do that.

(36:30):
And I'm using historical models of kindof things in Chicago and Baltimore after Freddie
Gray incident and the efforts and whathappened when they charged the officers and they
kind of laid back on enforcement.The success stories of New York City when
they used to brooke a windows policy, and they drop their murder rate sixty
six percent by kind of just forcingthe law at even the most basic level,

(36:52):
not allowing the most minor nuisance crimes, and they made you know,
actually fewer people in prison in NewYork, yet the crime weight went down
because they just didn't let people kindof get to that level, which just
kind of goes off the rails.And then and I can't keep up.
I mean, I've got the minuscriptdo and you know, you revise it.
I can't keep up. And so, uh, there's more evidence now

(37:16):
in terms of all these community Imean, everyone who ran their pie hole
about defunding the police and reimagining andall in all, all the new ways
to call criminal conduct, to rationalizeit, and attachment theories, none of
those they've all kind of run awayfrom that just because it's been disastrous.
I mean, there's really nobody wantsto be attached to not supporting the police

(37:39):
right now, because it is justeven in these these jurisdictions and governments that
supported it openly and defund uh andtake away enforcement groups from the police,
now they're kind of asking for morepolice and to do that because they seemed
just what a disaster it has beenfor everybody. So that's kind of what

(38:00):
the premise of the book is.And and it really kind of obviously it
there's really not a lot. Imean, they've used this kind of academic
and all these these kind of nonsensestudies or you know, redefining things in
a way, and so I tryto make it a non fiction book.

(38:20):
When I try to do it wasa non fiction book. Was citing the
sources. We got like three hundredand I think three hundred. I forget
how many over three hundred citations ofeverything. I don't want to be my
opinion, but just essentially just kindof have the historical record. There's a
very there's a very robust historical recordthat direct enforcement and consequences of acts leads
to a reduction in crime and layingoff. It kind of explodes, and

(38:43):
it just it just really undoes becauseobviously what you and I and those in
law enforcement we do, we reallyare just there for victims and to make
to make every every everything safer.That that's the whole point of why we
exist. To me, it's whygovernment exists at this levels is there's two
rules. Everything else is debateable.There's two things reasons we should have government

(39:06):
or a state, and goes backand it goes back to if you're a
tribe and cavesman the stone ages,protect yourself from external threat to the military.
And then internal order, which iskind of the police and this kind
of rules people abide by. Andyou know, there's there's just this kind
of idea that I mean, thenotion that you decriminalize activities and crime goes

(39:27):
down. I mean, it isso stupid. It's like that, you
know, it's like some of thosethings that some ideas are so dumb only
intellectual could believe them. That youknow, we're going to reduce the penalty
for breaking into cars, and thatwill lead to let people break in cars.
Like some of them say, youknow what, I really don't want
to break in a car, butmy gosh, they they they have it

(39:50):
a felony. I can't. Ican't make myself not commit this felon.
If you make it a misdemeanor andlet me out of jail, I'm gonna
quit doing it. That's why,goshall it is, it is such nonsense.
Into set those things with kind ofa straight face. But uh,
now, being right. The onlything surprised me is I am surprised how
fast the the decline has happened inthese areas. And yeah, I would

(40:13):
agree with that from living from livingin this world as well that in our
world. I mean, I thinkthe general citizen may not realize how how
how much bad stuff is happening.Uh, but but it does, and
it's happening at an an arming rate. Actually, the other thing I wanted
to mention real quick Brian is beforebecause I don't want to. I don't
want to miss this opportunity. Butbut your website, which is brianserper dot

(40:35):
com, is am I right onthat. There you go, it's up
on the screen. So so I'mtelling you right now that when you look
at this website, if you're apolice officer, you're a prosecutor. I
mean, he doesn't have it restricted. So if you're a normal citizen,
you you are welcome to look uphis site. And I will tell you
something about this site when you lookit up, is it is God.

(40:58):
It is got a other load ofinformation on there with different resources, and
I'm sure that you can roll throughsome of them, but one of them
I am going to mention is Mirandastuff that is super super helpful to investigators
and also really for prosecutors. Imean, they really should have an idea

(41:20):
as to what's going on there,because I mean, how much how much
how much time does prosecutors really getin law school when it comes to criminal
law, you know, so theyreally should be aware of all the ins
and outs and what can happen hereand there, et cetera. But mention
a couple of the other things thatare on your website that I just think
are spectacular. So what I've youknow, whenever you kind of presenting and

(41:43):
teaching, especially on kind of acurriculum base, which is nuts and bolts,
Miranda search, warrants, consensus search, whatever it might be, there's
there's always some information. And we'veall been to those seminars and trainings and
you kind of get the binder.Okay, you're gonna even get this binder,
and you're, oh, it's gonnabe good stuff. You're gonna keep
it, and we also we're gonnarefer to it. Then you change offices

(42:04):
and like, you know, whythe hell did I keep that? I
mean, we've all done it,and uh, or I'll mention something,
it might be real familiar, butI you know, if I'm there's an
officer that's that's on a midnight shiftsix months from now, something I said
about uh staleness or uh a consentor or an exigency or incident to rest
whatever it might uh, whatever itmight be, that's gonna sound kind of

(42:25):
familiar. But you know, wherewould you have that? You're gonna have
that with you. And so essentiallywhat what I do now when I present
and I've got a handout, andit could be like the article on Miranda,
it could be a search one.I got a search one checklist factors
relevant to voluntary consent, a lotof things like that. That the idea

(42:45):
being, look, if you cango no matter where you are, that
that you can go to brian serverdot com. You know I own that
and uh you know, click onthe tabs as resources and there's buttons with
all those kind of PDFs. Sothat way, you know, there's Last
week, I taught a search warrantclass. And to me, most search

(43:06):
warrants they're just clerical oversights, cops, no probable cause and and so and
to me, it's the and it'sjust a lot I think I think lives
kind of life's kind of like Roulette, that it's a lot of large numbers.
We touch too many things. Ifyou if you do it often enough,
there's going to be a time whenyou're just going to kind of miss
something. And when you proofread yourown stuff, you look over it because

(43:27):
you know those facts and so kindof the idea is that checklist is kind
of like an airline checklist that whenthey have pilot and I have experienced a
pilot is and how many times he'sflown, they go through the checklist because
when you do it over and overagain, you can think past certain things
and did I did I check this? Did I put in there that that's
the defendance residence that I actually doublecheck that everything I'm looking for I support
it with probable cause in the affidaveit just clerical things and you can check

(43:50):
that off. So if you're writinga search warrant sometime you can go up
and just kind of use that checklist. And the idea being that I just
feel that it's it's really challenging tobe in law enforcement. And uh,
I mean, Jason, I canuse you as an example. You go
you go do your job, doa great job. And here you've got

(44:10):
a guy that's really uh victim killedsomebody can maybe kill several people, uh
has victimized people. That that's thatthat has killed one person, the surviving
family, the most traumatic thing thathave been experienced. And then we've got
a process and uh, which isfine. It's it's a uh, it's
a it's a check on government,and it's it's guaranteed by the Bill of

(44:32):
Rights. But we've got the processof a trial. So you go do
your job, Detective Jason White,and there's a guy with a doctoral degree
waiting to attack you and everything youdid in the forum of under oath with
a jury. And he's a skilledwith a doctoral degree to attack you and
to actually accuse you of things andmake people believe things about you that if

(44:54):
true, you lose your job andgo to prison. And there's no other
professional line that. But I knowthat faces that the teachers, if they
give the kid a grade they deserve. I don't think they actually get that.
The parents hire a lawyer and theygo into court and get kind of
attack them. It's just we're usedto it. But I think it's extremely
challenging and Ay and a very importantmission. So the more I can kind

(45:15):
of support, uh and give officerskind of that the confidence to kind of
be able to look back at thosethings and do that, to me,
that that's what really kind of helpsme the ball forward for us in public
safety. So I think it's it'sreally hard. It was it was hard
to be in public safety, especiallyan investigator that what you do necessarily goes

(45:39):
into court. I mean a lotof people don't go to court very often,
but when you are doing investigations thatthat are that are related to major
felonies where someone's entire life could bethe definitive life is at stake. That's
in those kinds of big stakes,those cases go to court and get contested.
And so I think the more thatwe can uh uh support officers in

(46:04):
doing that. Uh. And andagain it's changed now just because this there
are still a lot of groups thatexist that they're there their entire mission is
to destroy and attack law enforcement.And I'm not talking about a fen slorder
that gets hired, but actual advocacygroups that that is kind of their mission
to attack law enforcement and what wetry to do, and it makes it

(46:27):
stressful, makes it hard and soI think the more that we can support,
uh the minimum women that do thatand uh that extremely important mission.
We I mean, we have tohave quality law enforcement if we want a
society that we want our kids togrow up in. And so, uh,
it's harder now, but like Ikind of think the last line of
the book is it's never hard,never been harder to be in law enforcement.

(46:51):
It never has been, but it'snever been more important. I mean
that that right now, that thatthe victims of crime and the vulnerable need
the public safety people to do that. And so that's kind of what the
goal of the website is. Theresources is to kind of empower that as
much as possible, because I knowthey're not if I can, I can

(47:13):
give them handouts, they can't carryall those things in the car and know
where they're at when they need them, and so just kind of a place
to kind of always go to toget those things if they can be used
to help the guys. Well,and I'm going to echo that right quick
that I'm I'm gonna echo that reallyquick that I don't want to say right
quick, I'm gonna sound like afreaking ok so. But anyway, so
I'm going to echo the fact thatthat look up his website, if your

(47:37):
law enforcement, you're a prosecutor,if you're just interested, take a look,
and I think that you're going tobe fascinated with what he's got in
there. It's actually super I mean, you could spend a day looking through
the materials that you have in thereeasily and also take a look at that
book. And I'm going to justtell you that that the reviews that are
for his book are from people thatare super all stars. I mean,

(47:57):
these guys have been around. WhenI read through the people that have commented
on that stuff, they're just they'reremarkable people. They're people that I trust
in this industry. And I thinkthat I think i'm fair to say brand
that it's not just people that arehere, that it's not just Oklahoma,
it's it's national, it's it's it'sapplicable throughout this country. If I'm not

(48:19):
mistaken, right, Yes, yeah, it's there's very there's not a lot.
There's a few Oaklhum experiences in there. And I'll tell you, I'll
give you one one kind of quickexample of of of some some where this
is kind of the Oklahoma tie I'vegot a chapter called where the meth Labs
Go. And you know what,there's a time when we eat in Tulsa,

(48:42):
Northeast, Oklahoma, there was thatkind of second phase of meth labs,
the one plot lab, which essentiallywhat that is, it's a single
reaction vessel. It's a smaller manufacturingevent, like one box of cold medicine
instead of a case. But inI believe two thousand and eight, you
know, is that what it was? Yeah, Tulsa had four hundred and
thirty one meth labs okay, fourand three one meth labs, and in

(49:07):
twenty nineteen they had two. Okay, so it's a ninety nine point five
percent reduction in meth labs. Wedidn't legalize it. We didn't give them
counseling, we didn't reimagine enforcement oranything like that. What we did was
we actually it was you have tosource to make methun fetamine, and the

(49:28):
way that everyone has done it,you have to have pseudofedrin and it's not
really an ingredient. You take itand just actually convert it into methamphetamine,
so it's not an ingredient. Youjust do use other chemicals to kind of
kick off a little oxygen hydrogen andthen you have base meth amphetamine, so
you have to have pseudoffeterrin. Webasically targeted that and doing that and that

(49:51):
was law enforcement that we did.Enforcement. We targeted everyone, did that.
We did We did operations where wetargeted those at pharmacies and did that,
and we don't have anymore policy makers. People on the left, they
don't have to worry about kids andmeth labs because we don't have them because
of enforcement. You can say thesame thing with the synthetic cannabinoids and the
spice and the incense sold as aknockoff cannabinoid at convenience stores. We made

(50:16):
it really kind of not be coolto do that by charging them hitting people
doing that. We don't have anymore. So we've solved problems not by legalized,
not these new ideas they come upto student union into grad school,
but by basic enforcement with that.So that's kind of what we've you know,
at least my pitch for what isimportant. So there's some Oaklumb examples,

(50:37):
but it's a that it's just anational policy book. Good stuff.
I know that they can get iton Amazon. They can also go to
your website and check out to findout where to get it. Brian,
Man, I can't thank you enough. I know that we could talk for
hours. Good me and you havetalked for hours if somebody was interested in
finding you to be able to teachsomewhere in the country. Because there's people

(50:58):
that are literally going to be listeningto this throughout the world. Uh.
And that's the truth. I'm notjust saying that there really is. I
hope there. I know there arebecause they reach out to me all the
time. They can go to yourwebsite and reach out to you if they
were interested in in you teaching them, possibly for search and seizure drugs whatever,
maybe just reach out to you.And I'm telling you I've seen him

(51:19):
teach. He's amazing. Uh.Read his book and and man, I
can't thank you enough for being onBrian. I mean, you're a super
important person. You're the deputy directorof Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics. Thank you
for being here. And I youknow what, who knows, we may
have you on again to talk aboutmore important issues later on down the line.
But I want to thank you verymuch. Hey, and well next

(51:40):
time, either have my daughter ora millennial to what we'll be able to
work with their computer and I haveit restart. Okay, yes, I'm
talking about the talking about the youthin the in there here, the old
man has this computer restart and it'sall good. Listen, it happens,
it's great. I'm sorry here,I didn't know Ronnie was your Ed McMahon
until I heard Yourench. He ismy Ed mc man. He's gonna be

(52:01):
here, He's gonna be great.Thanks a lot, Brain, I appreciate
you. I'm gonna I'm gonna closeout the show and just basically let everybody
know that, you know, ifyou're still here at this point in time,
I really sincerely appreciate you all beinghere. This is a big deal.
This is this is a fun hobbyfor me. I'm not on here
making any money. This is justbasically for me to do something that's actually

(52:24):
worthwhile and and and something that that'sgonna keep me from just sitting there watching
the TV, or just something toengage my brain and and and so forth.
So I hope that you enjoyed thisfirst installment. Yes we had a
couple of glitches, but but nextweek I got to tell you real quick
because I've got about a minute togo here. Next week, we're gonna

(52:45):
have a really I think it's aspectacular show. Honestly, I think it's
gonna be amazing, Uh, believeit or not. She's a convicted felon.
She's somebody that I actually met inin while she was at the federal
prison in southern Illinois by Champ andshe's going to tell her story. And
she was a registered nurse and kindof fell fell victim to be into a

(53:07):
drug addiction. And her story isabsolutely amazing, and I think that it's
going to be pretty good. Hey, if you wanted to get get in
touch with me, by the way, there's several ways to do it.
You can get in touch with mevia Facebook, there's my there's this stuff,
Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, allof that stuff is on there.
I'm very accessible, and uh,you know, I really do appreciate it.

(53:30):
So I am going to have toget off here. Uh. And
and you're going to hear the closingmusic and good night, all be safe,
happy holidays, and we'll catch youthe next time.