April 10, 2025 • 65 mins
It turns out that an actual prison escape takes a lot of time, a lot of planning, help, and at least a little luck. Escape at Dannemora looks at a 2015 prison break and where people and systemic flaws were exploited and we talk about what’s real, what’s not, and the psychology behind it all.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome back to Killer Phone, where we explore the intersection
of crime and entertainment every other week. I'm Christy and
I'm Jack and today today we are talking about Escape
at Dani Mora. It's just made its appearance on Netflix
after being originally made for Showtime. And let me tell you,
there's a lot of people that you can get attention from,
(00:33):
and ladies, I think we should leave the murderers in
prison alone.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Also, she didn't have many places to get attention.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
So I mean, I'm not saying I don't defend her.
I'm just saying I kind of get I kind of
get it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is so bad. Don't talk to me.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm just saying I get why, like, especially because like, okay,
all right, First of all, what's his face? Oh my gosh,
I've never seen him look like that at all?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Like he was full on Jesse Pinkman, you know what
I mean. I was like, what, So I kind of
get like when the.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Younger, you know, and he's not half bad looking, and
he doesn't have a tear drop tattoo, how this might
be alluring?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Well, and the actors actually look like the people who
were involved in this. It's crazy so it's like to
a almost stunning degree.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, so yeah, that's fine, but also choose better. Yes, you,
dear listener, you deserve better than a murderer in prison.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
You deserve better, you do. Oh my gosh, yes, this cast. Wow,
I mean, let's talk about it. Okay, So because they're
so good, it's so good. So Tilly is played by
Patricia Arquent. Tilly is the prison employee who's running the
(02:15):
tailor shop. Yeah yeah, I mean she got her first
real big role was a nightmare on Elm Street three,
and then she was on the long running drama Medium,
which she won a Primetime Emmy four. And really this
(02:35):
kind of came back as something for people to watch
because if you're a fan of Severance, Patricia Arquette is
also in Severance, and that's kind of why this has
picked up a little bit. It's moved to Netflix, so
more people have access to watch it.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, and they're like, oh, now that I've gotten through
the second season of Severance, I want to watch things
that the actors have been in.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, which is great because you know Paramount Plus because
it was on Showtime. Paramount Plus actually has it. But
you have to have like the higher level subscription. Oh,
we tried to open it there, but we have I
guess essentials. Oh okay, Walmart Plus subscription and it was
not part of it.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Oh well, so it seems like Netflix sent show Time
have a little deal going on, which I'm like, I
appreciate that. And then Benicio del Toro plays Richard matt
the convicted murderer. He had a history of person escapes, so, yeah,
(03:42):
he started in the eighties as a thug on Miami
Vice and then he's been in all kinds of stuff.
The Usual Suspects was probably like his first really big movie, yeah,
and then thor and Star Wars and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And it's interesting because when there's a part of him
that looks like he's in a movie that's like in
nineteen fifty three.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And then sometimes though the way.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
He like cocks his head and looks at you, you're like, oh, look,
you're a different person, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yes, what he's so like interesting?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Uh huh, yeah. Yeah. He can like inhabit these.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Different versions of the same character, versions.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Of the same character and has sort of got a
timeless sort of look. Yeah, right, like he fits in
all over the place.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, like it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
You could dress him up and he could be like
a rich guy. Yeah, he's probably often gonna be a
criminal though, but that knows too much, that's right, And
as the you know, good one, and that's.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Why he's so trapped because he is, you know, a
horse that should run free, you know this kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Sure, okay, And then we already mentioned Paul Dano. He
plays David Sweat, another convicted murderer. His big breakthrough was
Dwayne in Little Miss Sunshine, and then he's done lots
of like big movies, twelve Years of Slave, there will
(05:20):
be blood. The Batman, I actually know him from like
other stuff, The Fableman's yes and stuff like that. So
a little more that's more my speed when I'm watching
for pleasure. Though we've covered the Batman, he did. Bonnie
Hunt is Katherine Lee Scott, the New York State Inspector
(05:45):
General who investigated the escape. And if you were a
nineties kid, you recognize her because she was in Beethoven
and Jumanji and she provide the does it And so
that was like where a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Literally my husband says, I feel like I recognized the
younger version of her.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
That's why, and that is why, that is why exactly
all right, let's recap Okay, picturesque. Northern New York is
home to a very large prison, technically the Clinton Correctional Facility.
It's usually called by the same name as the little
town that it's in, Dana.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Mora, which is very hard to pronounce, by the way.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh do you find it?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Not now?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
But initially and I couldn't quite remember the name of
the thing.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Then I couldn't picture it well enough, and so and
then then I almost telling my husband.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Then he's trying to use the voice thing on Apple
to find it, but he can't quite remember either. But
it doesn't actually just fall into place the way other words,
do it like five times.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Before before you can figure out.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And then it's like it's not that hard once you
know what it is. But yeah, that's very funny.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Okay, Dan Boro, Dana Nomore.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
We know something's pretty wrong from the start because we
joined the story with Tilly, the prison employee, meeting with Catherine,
the Inspector General of New York, and they're waiting for
us stenographer, and it's very official business when you're waiting
for a stenographer I mean, I mean, this is like
(07:43):
court stuff. The only time you really have a stenographer
is like it's important. The days in prison are monotonous,
not only for the inmates but for the people who
work there as well, and it seems almost inevitable that
the employees will either become callous to the situation of
(08:03):
the people that they guard or become overly friendly with
the inmates they often see. And boy did Tilly get friendly.
Tilly oversees a tailor shop that inmates work in at
Clinton Correctional. She gets good work from them because she
takes a humanistic approach. Her kindness is exploited by two
(08:29):
inmates in particular, Richard Matt and David Sweat. Matt and
Sweat exploit Tilly's boredom and kindness while looking at every
aspect of prison life to find advantages or weaknesses in
the system, and they do find weakness.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yes, to do thoughts, Oh yeah, yeah, oh I had
so many.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Tilly was talking to Catherine and she said, I didn't
do anything really wrong, Like that's just like telling on
yourself so much, like you know it's wrong, but you
don't really think like either, you think that it's not
that wrong or that the rules are bad or whatever,
(09:14):
but you know you messed up.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, you know it.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Sometimes you can see like they might use that as
a defense, right to say like okay, but if you
if you stipulate that you were doing this, then then
you can say, well I am this, I did this,
and actually serves to say but I'm not that right.
It kind of makes a false dichotomy in a way, right,
(09:41):
And I feel like that's what she was going for, right, like, well,
yeah I did did that, but I wasn't. I wasn't
really wrong for that. But and because of that, like
I try to be a good person, so I couldn't
have done this horrible thing over here.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Right, It was like, oh, you're smarter than you let all.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Oh she's for sure, we see that, Like even in
that first episode where she is kind of playing a
little ignorant with Catherine and then she's not as ignorant as.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
She puts on.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So Tilly was in the Taylor shop and she offers
to play music. Yeah, and she says what do we want?
Do we want hip hop or classic rock? And they
kind of can't agree, and so she puts on pop
and I'm like, okay, pop is not the middle ground
for these two things. Like you're nobody's happy. Nobody's happy,
(10:37):
nobody's happy with the pop music. If what you wanted
was hip hop or especially right, yes, you.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Might have a better chance now. No, no, what she
put on particularly?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, So Tilly and Sweat aren't fooling anyone when they
go into the machine room. No, everybody knows, like the
guards know, the other inmates know. Everybody knows. And that's
where I'm like, maybe she's not completely acting with Catherine
because she thinks they're being really sneaky.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
She does think that, and so and kind of so
does Sweat a little bit, like he tells people like
are we paying careful?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh yeah, yeah really?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Oh I had so many thoughts.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I just so. The portrait painted by Matt for the
corrupt guard Geen not bad, not bad, And he really
did paint portraits. I'm not going to talk about it later,
so I can talk about it here a little bit.
In the big report that the Inspector General put together,
they include some pictures of the art. Wow, that was
(11:47):
done for Jean, who is the real person here? And
you know it's not bad? Yeah, like it's is it great? No,
but is it not bad.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
It's not bad a job.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
It's really impressive the amount of power that Matt wields,
And it's impressive and a little frightening because he really
has a lot of power over the other inmates and
even some of the guards. And it feels inappropriate but.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Also completely predictable.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yes, exactly. So Sweat made Tilly a tiny pair of
pants because he was quote unquote inspired. I'm like, yeah,
you were inspired because you just yelled at your mom
on the phone and she's the only family member you
have left who will talk to you, and you need
(12:43):
a friend. So you were inspired by desire for something.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
So Matt says to Tilly that because he and Sweat
are friends, that he and Tilly must be Yeah, And
I'm like, wait, is there some sort of like transitive
law of friendship that I don't know about, because it
seems like the whole world would end up friends if
that were true. Yeah, just because this person's your friend
(13:16):
and that person you know, that other person you're both friends, Like,
it'd be nice if it worked that way.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It does not, but it does not, But it does
in prison.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I mean, if you're trying to manipulate somebody who works there. Sure, absolutely,
let me ingratiate myself.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yes, yes, I mean to a degree.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
It's true to real life, but we don't call it friends.
It's a network.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Sure. Well, and you might meet your friend's friend and
you might become friends. But you might meet your friend's
friend and be like, I'll never need to go out
to dinner with them again, right right.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, or you just may like have a great time
and never huh ever really see each other again.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
But for business, like we do keep those contacts a
little bit to say, oh, you know somebody who I
say that because Matt is performing a transaction.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I was just gonna say, and really that's business for him.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
That's his business. So this is a business thing.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, huh yeah, Oh that's interesting. I hadn't really made
that connection, but yes, it's busy, it's business for him. Yeah,
this is his business, is the connections in prison.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
And yeah, and to his own personal motivation. So it
like mixes together, right for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So it was partially filmed in Pittsburgh, which I was
kind of not expecting. So a lot of it was
done like kind of on location up in northern New York.
But there was a prison in Pittsburgh. It used to
be called Western Penitentiary. Seems like that's what a lot
of a lot of people still called it till it closed.
(14:59):
It's actually was sci Pittsburgh, but it had been decommissioned,
and for two weeks they went and were able to
film at the prison like everything was still in it,
like it had literally just been done. So they filmed
from August to twenty seventeen to March of twenty eighteen,
(15:20):
and a lot of the inside stuff was filmed in soundstages,
so like the cells, the cell blocks, the tailor shop,
all that stuff. But when you see them outside in
the yard, Oh, that's the that's all at this place
in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
And the whole thing is largely based on the Inspector
General's report, which was one hundred and seventy five pages long.
It was exhaustive. Yeah, I don't really have any resources.
I mean I thought maybe I would be like, hey,
how do you report on the prison card doing inappropriate things?
(16:02):
But first of all, how many people are going to
need to know that?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I mean probably not.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
A lot statistically.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Right, every state's gonna have different reporting requirements, right, And
then I also kind of have like a sense of
justice of like, don't do these things wrong and also
don't snitch that are kind of at odds within me.
And then also like how long are the reporting processes
(16:33):
really gonna stay active here in the US? I don't
know in the current political climate, so maybe forever, maybe
not for long, who knows. So I guess just don't
help murders escape from prison. I guess that's what I got.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
But also get involved with prison reform, sure, because yes,
it is predictable.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Psychology can show you why it's predictable. And you can't.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Rehabilitate humans by treating them inhumanely, and and so.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
This is why recidivism is such a problem in the US.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
It's so high.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Yeah, And it's not to say that rehabilitation needs to
be like, well, it's just caudle, right, but prison guard
the whole approach really needs to be, you know, changed,
and there needs to be something because the way the
guards were talking to and the way the guards treat them, and.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
The way it's just so predictable.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
You know, thank you Stanford, you know Prison Experiment for
showing us this.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It is predictable. But you're you are going to make
even good prisoners want to escape, right, and that's not good.
I mean that's not good.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I understand their life first, but they can be contributing
to society on a much higher level, especially when they
have done the internal work.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
And then you just continue you to put them as
a rat in a cage.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Guess what? Yeah, so yeah, just say, but when you
treat them like rats in a cage, they're going to
act like rats and who want to escape?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yes, exactly, so uh huh y so prisoner formula get involved. Yeah,
so here's how it works. Christie erects her search history.
Hey an essay. We promise it's nothing more nefarious than
a podcast to find out what's true some of the
psychological motivations behind the character's actions and real life applications
(18:31):
that relate to our topic. I have no idea what
Christy decided to look up could be the same thing
that captured my curiosity or something I never thought of.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Is it true?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Well?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, a lot of it is actually really largely true. Yeah,
so there really was there. Obviously there really is Clinton
Correctional Facility. These people really did live and work there.
There really was an escape. In twenty fifteen, Richard matt
really was a murderer. He had kidnapped and murdered a
(19:07):
man by the name of William Rickerson who had been
his boss, and then he fled to Mexico. And it
wasn't until he stabs said someone in Mexico that Mexico
deported him, like they sent him back to the US too.
They extradited him, and it was only because he had
(19:30):
gotten in trouble, like they were. I don't think they
were opposed to sending him back extraditing him because at
that time we had good relationship with Mexico, so I
don't think that they were like opposed to it, but
they weren't like going out of the way to look
for him. And then he's causing trouble and they're like,
send him back to the US. And then Sweat David
(19:52):
Sweat stole a truck in two thousand and two and
was driving around in it with firearms that he'd stolen,
and they got pulled over by deputy by the name
of Kevin Tarcia, and they shot him fifteen times and
(20:12):
then ran him over with the truck and he died.
And so he pled guilty agreed to life in prison
to avoid the death penalty. So yeah, and then Joyce
Tillie Mitchell really was a supervisor in the tailor shop
at the correctional facility and did admit that she flirted
(20:36):
with the men. And the two men did live in
the same block of cells on our block, which makes sense,
and it was actually kind of like a nicer part
of the prison, Like they had televisions mounted on the wall,
and there were cooking stations, and they had access to
(20:59):
like tables and showers and telephones on the wall, and
so it was like kind of a nicer area of
the prison. So and then Jean Palmer, the prison guard,
really did do favors for Matt and smuggled stuff in
for him. And then I assume we'll see this later
(21:21):
in the show. I haven't seen the rest of the show,
but there was an exhaustive manhunt for them. The FBI,
US Customs and Border Protection because it's super close to Canada,
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms and Explosives, We're looking for him.
The state and local police, the New York Forest Rangers,
(21:44):
everybody was looking for these people. Once they actually did.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Escape, it's wild.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
It is wild. So the prison dominates the landscape of
the town. Are they also a primary employer in the town.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I mean, I guess, yeah, yes, they they are.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
The New York Times shortly after they escaped, had a
whole article and they basically everybody has a family member
who works there, like everybody in the town. Even if
you don't work there, or somebody in your household doesn't
work there, you know somebody or you're related to somebody
(22:29):
who works there. And it's the prison is providing jobs,
the community is providing labor. And most maximum security facilities
are pretty remote, and this one's like on the main
street in Danamora.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Like it sounds like did it sounds like the town
grew up around it.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Almost we'll get there, oh okay, okay. There's not a
lot else in Tanamora, but it's not as secluded as
as most prisons are. Most of the prisons are off
far and then people drive into them and like literally
I saw pictures of like school buses like right outside
(23:12):
the walls of the prison, Like it is right there
in town. But Dana Mora doesn't have bars, it doesn't
have hotels, it doesn't have a high school. Like everything's
farther away. It's really like local people right there. There's
(23:32):
not a lot else there, but it's all right there.
There are two churches in the town and they share
a priest. I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I did.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I don't know why. Maybe they I don't know, but
they share a priest. I mean, just ok yeah, I know,
just do the one. It is a terrible place to
do time.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
It looked like it. Yeah, I mean all of them
look like it. But it looked like right, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, and they call it like little Siberia because it's
so cold. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
So yeah, it's giving a Russian penestry in tree vibes.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Uh huh. Yeah. So can you go to the Price
Whacker to pick up dinner?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I mean, that was funny.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
It was funny. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I'm hoping, I'm hoping it's true.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Well, unfortunately you can't go to the Price Whacker. But
it is a reference, okay, because Price Chopper is an
actual grocery store in the northeast US. Okay, but they
did not want their name used in the show, okay,
and it's been used before. Actually. The Good Place also
(24:52):
talked about the Price Whacker and is also a reference
to Price Chopper, who did not want their name used
in that either.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
That's funny, okay, Price Wacker, it's really hilarious.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
An immain complained to Matt that his wife's phone number
was blocked, and so Matt took it to corrupt Gene
the prison guard to try and get it cleared. Can
the prison block phone numbers? Yeah, oh yeah, yes for sure.
So there's a lot of ways that this can happen
(25:25):
in the Center for Constitutional Rights in general doesn't approve
of punitive blocks on phone numbers. So a casual block
is when a customer calls and says, I don't want
collect calls from penitentiary. Right, that's fine, you can refuse
the calls. They have an issue with the calls that
(25:49):
are be they think they'll block them because of what
they call a high toll fraud, and really basically that
just means that they think that they're conspiring with somebody
on the outside, so they'll block the number. But they don't.
They can just say that's what's happening, and it's really
(26:10):
just punitive, so they don't have any they don't have
to have any evidence of that before they do the block,
so it's kind of sticky, and they can the company.
The phone company will block numbers if people have collect
calls that they haven't paid for, or if they get
too many, if you reach one hundred dollars in collect calls,
(26:33):
and then they will call you and you have to
set up a particular different sort of fee structure, like
a different way to pay and more frequent payment, or
they'll just cut you off, right, Yeah, And sometimes phone
providers will just block it so you can't get collect
(26:54):
calls from prisons.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
But that's not them blocking it. That's the phone.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Right, it's the phone company making it spam. Yeah, right,
is it spam or is it you know? Or they
just they don't want to deal with the fact that
you might not pay for these calls or whatever. And
then there's the allowed list where you have to have
the phone number approved before you can make calls in
(27:22):
or out. Right, So you have to know the person's
phone number, which I mean, I guess you already have
to know the person's phone number, but you have to
submit it and get it approved. And that's a little iffy. Yeah, okay, great,
you want to make sure they're not calling nefarious people.
But also, shouldn't you be able to call people? And
(27:42):
then there's the disciplinary one, which is the one they
have the biggest problem with. Is that for a period
of time they're just going to block somebody's number. Oh,
you're causing trouble. I'm going to make it so you
can't talk to your loved ones, right, that's so like, yeah, yeah,
I mean they should be able to choose whether or
not they talk to you. It's all sticky, but it happens.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, if it's if you need that kind of I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I feel like if you're using that kind of punishment,
you probably aren't doing a good job anyway.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Right, Well, that falls into the whole. You know, if
we treat them like they're inhuman, then they're going to
act in human ways.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
If we're going to deny them a human connection, then
we can't expect them to act anything other than the
way they do.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, And it's a little it's a little folk call
at work, right instead of just saying you, by your behavior,
have lost phone privileges, right like time out, so you're
not allowed to use have the phone for the next week,
So that it's a it's a tried and true method
of punishment to reduce behavior. Instead, they're actually psychologically torturing
(28:54):
them by they don't know what the punishment is, where
it's coming, or how long it's going to be there.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And a lot of times they may not even be
able to.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Connect it to whatever happened right until because they something
might happen, they kind of got out of line, they
got corrected, whatever, and then all of a sudden, there's
a phone number blocked.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, you haven't done anything to.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Help reduce the behavior because you didn't connect the punishment
with the behavior.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
So there's no association made.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
All you made all these people feel like is that
they're being watched all the time and none of the time.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Huh Yeah, And so they don't know and that is
a psychological breakdown.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yes, it's not helpful, it's not instructive in any way.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
No, it's not instructive.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It's not a clear cut right, And you could take
it a step further to be like, the more you
do that, the more you kind of psychologically torture them
like that, you're actually.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Increasing the behavior.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Yes, because they are feeling oppressed, and now you have
a different kind of psychological approach to the situation.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, it's not good. It's a good control tactic either,
it will backfire.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah. Like all of the sources that we use to
inform our discussion here on Killer Fun Podcast can be
found on our social media. Join us on Facebook at
Killer Fun Podcast, exploring the intersection of crime and entertainment.
You can find us on Twitter at Killer Funpod, or
(30:22):
you can send us an email at Killerfunpodcast at gmail
dot com and I'd be happy to share a link
to whatever information you're looking for. We love to hear
from you. You might learn a little something too. Well.
Since we're right here, let's do psychology break. So Catherine
the New York Inspector General tells Tilley at this kind
(30:46):
of near the start of her interview that you can't
go around, you have to go through. Hey, yeah, so
the only way out is through. Is kind of a
way to approach things because we as people will avoid
conflict or discomfort if we're able to. And Hannah Rose,
(31:14):
who's a counselor, wrote an article for Psychology Today, and
she's talking about how when you do something new, in particular,
it rarely feels comfortable at the start, and walking through
your discomfort when you do things like asking for help,
moving in relationships into seeing commitment, interviews, setting boundaries. All
(31:41):
of those things are uncomfortable to start with, but when
you do them, your life is more full and more whole,
and it's a way to grow. And so it's a
balance of listening to your gut in what is dangerous
and what is merely uncomfortable. The idea that time heals
(32:06):
wounds is not untrue, but it's you have to be
careful not to just ignore the uncomfortable parts of particularly
things like grieving. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, if you just
ignore it, you're actually not healing. You're just kicking that
(32:28):
can down the road. So if you can push through
the discomfort, uncertainty, be vulnerable, you get to live more
authentically and more whole. Yeah, so she's not wrong, she's no.
And then Robert Frost kind of coined that American poet
(32:50):
the only way out is through level up. Yourskills dot
com is talking about Robert Frost kind of coining this
phrase and idea and that sometimes when you avoid things
like speaking in public and stuff like that, you're actually
(33:11):
reinforcing your fear rather than overcoming it. So if you can,
especially if you can take small steps to get to
the next level, the next phase you're going to do better.
And that acknowledging things like addiction is how you get
through it, how you get past it. You have to
(33:35):
acknowledge it first. And it's never too late to start.
You can always keep the end goal in mind and
be able to get through and start it. Start today
or start tomorrow. And if you don't be don't think
it's too late because I didn't start yesterday.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
And then Matt WARN's sweat that Tilly's husband who's also
employed at the prison. The spouse always finds out one
way or another. Yeah. So I'm going to briefly talk
about some statistics because a lot of relationships are affected
(34:15):
by infidelity. So up to about twenty percent of marriages
and thirty to forty percent of unmarried but committed relationships
are affected by infidelity, and that a lot of people
who suspect infidelity are right. Like if you find yourself
suspecting it and you're a woman and married to a man,
(34:38):
about eighty percent of the time you're right. Yeah, if
you're a man, a little over sixty percent you're right.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
So maybe look into that open some lines of communication.
Women are more likely to have an emotional affair. Men
are more likely to have a one night stand than women.
The what you think in a heterosexual marriage of men
cheat more than women. That tends to hold up. About
(35:09):
twenty percent of men and thirteen percent of women admit
to affairs. There's surely there are people who don't admit
to affairs that are having them. And I always think
of Rachel when she's almost getting back together with Ross.
So my mother said, once a cheater, always a cheater.
(35:33):
About forty five percent of people who cheat in an
early relationship are gonna cheat again, so she's not wrong.
And it's sad. A lot of people tend to cheat
with coworkers or in laws, which is gross. And why
(35:54):
do people do it. They're bored, they might be having
relationship problems, they found out their spouse cheated, and they're
getting revenge. However, fifty six percent of men who cheat
claim to be happily married, so it's not necessarily dissatisfaction
(36:17):
in the relationship that causes this. Yet it's yeah, it's difficult.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
I mean esther Perel has probably one of the most
you know, oh, she's amazing, groundbreaking, you know viewpoint on this.
And you know she's known more for her like therapy
sessions now, but when she's you know, put out her
book and her research on infidelity right and how to
rethink infidelity, you know, she really harps on. Okay, you
(36:47):
could be happily married, but the expectations in Western marriages
are crushing. And sometimes it's not that you're unhappily married,
but you're crushed by expectation that you will never actually
reach and so you reach for something that you can
achieve well in that moment, right, just to make somebody
happy and somebody makes you happy, and it's like check
(37:10):
check yeah, And so I'm simplifying it greatly, oh absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
But the idea being that you know, we put a.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Lot of stake into marriages, even in fidelity right and
the whole point of it, and so we put so
much into it that it's hard, it's hard for it
to not break right. So well, for.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Sure, when you're expected to be, you know, a partner
in always like you're supposed to be the best friend,
you're supposed to be the lover, you're supposed to be,
the caretaker, you're supposed to be a parent, you're supposed
to be a child, you're supposed to be all of
these things within this relationship. It's really unrealistic.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
It's unrealistic. And not only that, I mean we just
put so much.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
They're supposed to be the ones who help us self actualize, right,
become our best self, right, and all of this kind
of and you know, there's just the social isolation, the
lack of the lack of community to provide so much
and not sure what to do about it, but just
to know that, you know, the lack of community that
(38:16):
we have is actually putting more pressure on what we
would think of as the nuclear family. And so it
presses the nuclear family so hard, yes, you know, and
when people have those expectations, they're more likely to turn
inwards to the nuclear family rather than turning outside. To
be available the power of availability, right, and so when
(38:37):
we don't, when we're not available to you know, people
in our community or in our social networks and things
in that ways, it also means that we can't even
practice it well enough to actually be available to our
spouses in the ways that they are supposed.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
To be available.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
And so we just have a we have right now,
the Western culture particularly, we have no idea how to
be available.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
No, it's hard. I mean we just there's a lot
of uncertainty and a lot of expectations around how we
should be that are even outside of just like what
kind of employee are you supposed to be? What kind
of child are you supposed to be? What kind of
friend are you supposed to be? All of these things
(39:22):
like that you feel like you're supposed to be don't
leave you any room to especially especially in late stage capitalism,
like what kind of employee are you supposed to be?
Takes up a lot of your life and it doesn't
leave a lot of space for you to be the
other things.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
No, it really it does it.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
I mean economic of the socioeconomic situation absolutely puts, you know,
even more of a pressure point on it, because you know,
if you're working two jobs, if you're working you know,
if both spouses are worth working two jobs, and you've
got kids, the way there time for and the way
the daycares are, it's just it we put so much
(40:04):
stock in the nuclear family that friendships used to happen
among the other things that happen in our family life. Right,
it wasn't supposed to be an outside expectation. It was
supposed to be you know, sort of part of you know,
I don't know, ubiquitous, sure, sort of the water we
swim in rice fish right like that's you know, imagine
(40:27):
if fish had to make time for water like you can't.
That doesn't make any sense. Well, social network, we shouldn't
have to make time for it. It should just be
alongside what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Right, And it's not.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, so I don't know how to fix it. I'm
just complaining about it.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Well, I don't know that we can fix late stage capitalism.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
No, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
I hate to think about what it will take to
fix that because I have a feeling it's going to
require breaking a lot of things and I'm not ready
for I'm not ready for things to shatter. I know,
but it's hard yep. But back to cheaters. They get
caught mostly because they feel guilty. Oh that is uh,
(41:20):
Body and soul talk to a sex and relationship therapist
Laura Maury, about half of infidelity incidents end because the
person confesses to their spouse they feel guilty. Well good,
(41:41):
so either it's because they know they need to come
clean in order to save the relationship, or because they're
ready for their marital relationship to end and they know
that this will break it hereficably. Yeah, So that's the
long and short of it. A lot of people find
out because someone else told them, but that's much less.
(42:06):
It's about half that confess. Eighteen percent are told by
somebody else. Seventeen percent or caught because their partner checks
their phone or other device and catches them location tracking,
suspicious behavior, the person they're cheating with tells you, yeah,
(42:28):
it's not great. Or four caught red handed. That seems
like the worst one. Really. You don't want to catch
your spouse right handed. You don't want to walk in
on it.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
I don't think so either. But also, I mean there's
no wiggling out of it if you catch them that way. Yeah,
but you can't unsee some things.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
No, no, but the leverage is yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
And then you know, half confess, but also about half
never get caught. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, so I'm pretty sure.
I'm pretty sure. Well, actually I know she got caught
because I've get to.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
My research right right, Well, and like you know, the
guards the guards. Everard is talking, you know, and he knows,
he knows something's wrong. He's also a complete curmudgeon. And
I can't help it because I'm trying not to. I
don't want to defend her. No, I don't want to
defend her doing what she.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Did at all.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
But you can see, like you can understand like why
because she's got expectations put on her by the society
that we live in. She's like he's not living up
to his end.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Of the deal, right, Like she's so like lonely, you know,
and he's such a curmudgeon.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
And you know, what is this music? I like, isn't
it saying?
Speaker 3 (44:00):
You know she has to beg him to get out
of bed to deal with the snow, like you know,
there was just these little hints, you.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Know, beg order. Yeah, I mean she does kind of
like I don't know, I'd be pretty ticked off if
somebody walked in my bedroom with the snowshovel.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, he's supposed to be up already.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Well, that's true. He is supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
He's supposed to be. I am not your mama. I'm
not your mom. See that is the difference.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
We have to expect hired of our of each other,
right like as.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Women particularly talk about all the different labels.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
We put that mom cap on towards our spouses a lot,
and we just have to decide. No, right, no, no, no,
I'm not going to mother you into this. You're gonna
just wrap up your end of the bargain. And I'm
not throwing you a parade for doing the simplest task
of picking up after yourself, right right, If you're supposed
to be up and helping me with this task right now,
(44:55):
and I've tried nicely for a while, No, at that point,
this is.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
A no super fair boundary. Yeah, I'm walking in the
bedroom with a snow shovele.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, like it's time. Yeah, right, Or give me money
for a snowflower.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Uh huh, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I can give choices. I don't know, because I can
be bought.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, we all have our price. People will say I
can't be bought like you are a liar.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I can be bought.
Speaker 4 (45:22):
I know.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
It may not be money, it might be something else. Yeah, okay,
but everybody's motivated by something different, that's right. But we
all have our price.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
It's all a negotiation, real life.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
So a little backstory on the prison. Clinton Correctional Facility
also known as Danimore in Prison is over one hundred
and seventy five years old.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
It looks old.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
It's very very old. Initially they put it where they
did because there were mining operations nearby. Oh okay, and
they wanted to use the inmates's labor.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Okay, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
It makes sense. It's sticky and ugly because it's basically slavery.
But yeah, the mining operations were a failure, but the
prison stayed there, so it's been there a long time.
It's a little sticky, but it is a huge employer
(46:25):
in that area. Yeah. So Tilly, her real name is
Joyce and she's named after her mother. She tells Catherine
that when you call me Joyce, I feel like you're
talking to my mom. Oh right. And I was like,
she's a junior. Where are they're women juniors?
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Hello, Gilmore girls?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I mean there are there are women juniors, but just
not that many.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, they don't get to be called junior though.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
A few havel but not often. You can't. You could
give your daughter a junior name if you want it to,
you can mark. They'll put it on there give them
a little suffolk smark the box. Whatever. But we can
blame the patriarchy because Washington's City paper asked this question
(47:21):
and back in twenty fourteen. The progeny who need to
be conspicuously number or ordered chronologically are the ones who rule,
and in generally though not always, they've been male.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Right, because the inheritance and all of that passes five.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Orth order exactly. So like Queen Elizabeth the second she was,
she gets the second because she is ruling, but only
after she got to Queen right. She wasn't Elizabeth the second, really, No,
until she got to right Queen right, because then it
(48:01):
was There'd been a lot of Elizabeth in between. Oh yeah,
But only when she received a status did she get
the high that the number the moniker that way, it
was not that way. In classical Rome, sequential naming remained
(48:24):
literally descriptive, since all girls in a family bore the
same name. So if there was a family name, they
all got the same family name. So Uhcripio Africanus, who
was a general in ancient Rome, there was the family
(48:46):
name of his I guess of his wife was Cornelius,
so the daughters were given a feminine of that name Cornelia,
and so they were Cornelia Africana. So mother's family name,
father's family name. And then they were named major and minor,
(49:09):
big and little Big Cornelia, Little Cornelia.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
Because the girls didn't deserve their own name.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
But the men, the boys got their own name.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Sometimes I think so is weird. In the eighteen hundreds,
naming a child after the mother was the mark of
a bastard because either they didn't know who the father
was or he didn't acknowledge that the child was his.
(49:40):
So if you had a daughter that was named exactly
like the mother, it is because she didn't know who
her daddy was. There have been some juniors or seconds
for mostly notable people. It's usually unusual stature that where
a woman have a junior or whatever. So Anna eleanor
(50:03):
Roosevelt is named after her mother and she has a
junior title.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, it's you can do it.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
But it seems weird to us because people don't do it.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
People don't not so much.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
No, not so much. But it's fine. I don't know.
I don't really like junior for anybody. I asked my husband,
I'm like, do you want to do you want if
we have a boy, do you want him named after you.
He's like, no, no, I don't want that. I'm like, okay,
well that's fine. He was like, give him their own name.
(50:42):
I have no problem with juniors. But also like, I'm
not my in law's naming ability. Wasn't so amazing that
we had we had to name him juniors. Yeah. So
there's a term for how Tilly was manipulated by the inmates,
and it's called drowning. The duck is what they call
(51:06):
grooming prison staff, which I was like, oh, that's that's
a thing, isn't it. And she really had been. They
had cultivated a relationships with Tilly over many months, made
her feel like she was loved and special in a
lot of ways. And she was supposed to pick them
(51:31):
up after their escape, and she ended up changing her
mind at the last minute. And she did cooperate with
the police, like she like went to them and said,
here's some of the things that happened. I'm going to
be honest with you. When she realized that they were
like gone and not caught right away, she confessed a
(51:52):
little bit that she didn't go pick them up. Probably
saved her life. Because they were planning on killing her
husband and oh uh huh, And they believe that they
would have killed her as well and stolen the vehicle
and the supplies that she was supposed to get for them, right,
(52:15):
and that they probably would have killed them both and
then run and yeah, so probably a good thing. But
she did't go to prison. She got out in twenty
twenty though. Okay, yeah, speaking of going to prison, Lyle
Mitchell didn't know anything about her activities what in prison.
He didn't know what she was doing, and the police
(52:37):
believed that he really didn't know.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
And they're still together. Oh yeah, like he he believed
her version of it, her version where she said that
she only that she didn't engage in an actual relationship
with them. She was flirtatious and kind of went along
with what plans they said because she was afraid for herself,
(53:04):
for her husband, for their child, their son. It was
from a different relationship. But I think he Lya adopted
her son anyway, that's not really part of the part
of the whole thing. But he really believes her and
has chosen to believe her, and they are still together.
(53:27):
And Joyce did not like this show.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Oh, I can imagine not.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
Ben Stiller is the son of a bitch liar, just
like the rest of the world. He doesn't care about
the truth. All he cares about is making millions off
of me. He's an idiot, Like, Oh, I can see
how she would feel that way. Yeah, he didn't help
anybody escape from prison. Yeah, and it is fictionalized in
(53:53):
a lot of ways. A lot of it is fairly accurate.
There are some things that have been changed. So yeah,
so Sweat really wanted a prison transfer, Yeah, because he
didn't like Little Siberia. Yeah, he said it was too cold.
He's moved a lot since his escape attempt. So between
(54:15):
twenty fifteen when he was sent back to prison, he
was injured in his when he was recovered, and when
they sent him back to a different prison. Oh yeah, dude,
jo't imagine that they're going to send him back to
Danama when that was where he just escaped from. By
twenty nineteen, he'd been moved to four different prisons. Yeah,
(54:36):
they moved him around a lot, and then in twenty
twenty two he was in yet another prison, and then
he went on a hunger strike because he didn't like
where he was, and that was he was trying to
initiate another prison transfer. He's done a hunger strike a
number of times, so this is not new for him.
(54:57):
This is in his playbook of things to do. He
did not like the prison that he was at because
he had been moved closer to Dana Mora. He had
been in South New York, which I'm sure he liked
the weather a little better, and he was closer to family,
and for whatever reason, they moved him like two hours
(55:18):
north of there, which was much closer to Dana Mora.
He did not want to be there if he wanted
to be as far away from Tana Moor as he
could get, and he wanted to be close to his family,
and so he did this hunger strike and then a
judge was like, that's too bad that you don't like
being there, because you're going to stay and I'm going
to authorize feeding tube, so you should maybe just eat. Wow. So,
(55:42):
as far as we know, he's still there.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
But he's moved around a lot. I think that's six
prisons that he was in since twenty fifteen. That's a
lot of moving around. Yeah, that is so the tailor
shops in various prisons, but particularly in Clinton Correctional they
do have a mission. So in eighteen ninety three they
(56:06):
officially organized core Craft, which is the Division of Correctional
Industries as to build these sort of vocational opportunities for people.
And core Craft is only allowed to sell to public
entities or charitable organizations, so it's not really supposed to
(56:30):
be like a money making venture sort of situation, like
it makes some money, but that's not supposed to be
its main intent. It's more to give vocational training. About
one fifth or a little less of the inmates can
work in the tailor shop at Clinton Prison. The total
(56:53):
population there is about two thousand people, and about four
hundred can have a job at the tailor shops. There's
a bunch of them. It wasn't just the one room.
There's a bunch of them. The good news is that
no matter what you are doing, time for or how
long you're there, all jobs are available to all inmates.
(57:15):
So depending on your ability right now, it doesn't mean
you wouldn't do something and be told you can't work
there anymore. But just because you're there for you know,
a more minor thing or a more major thing doesn't
mean that you can't have what's considered a good job.
(57:35):
Core Craft has other sorts of manufacturing jobs. The typical
what you think of license plank making, yep, that's part
of it, but also metal fabrication like making cabinet slockers, signposts,
engraving services, stuff like that are all there. And really
(57:57):
it's to keep people busy. Yes, you want to give
them vocational options. A lot of these people are there
for a very very long time, so they may not
really need vocational training for when they get out, because
they may never get out. But you'd think it'd be like, oh,
this is a way to give them purpose in life,
(58:17):
and it is. But really it's more like keep them
busy so that they don't bug the guards, right, which.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Is a little sad, a little sad.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
And that is sort of reflected in the actuality of
working in the tailor shop in Clinton Correctional So a
man named Wesley Williams, who was an inmate, wrote a
little article for The New Republic about his experience working
(58:49):
in the tailor shop. So from seven to twenty in
the morning until two thirty in the afternoon, he puts
collars on t shirts. Okay for twenty six months an hour. Yeah,
it's not a lot, and core Craft says it's to
teach good, worth, ethic and valuable life skills. However, Wesley
(59:14):
has found that the tailor shop supervisors often don't know
how to work the actual industrial sewing machines that are there,
so they're not really learning a ton. And he's also
seen a lot of racism that white inmates get far
preferential treatment, and that's a problem, he said, though I'm
(59:39):
working against my will, I'm told almost every day that
twenty six cents an hour is considered good. Since the
tailor shop is the highest paying job in the facility,
am I supposed to be grateful? So I get it.
Do we want to give them a sense of purpose?
And I understand that they're making anything is you know,
(01:00:02):
they're not just paying for their They're actually getting something
so they have money to spend in the commissary or whatever.
They're not just paying back for their right incarceration for
their own upkeep. They are actually getting a little something
for it. But it is very little, and so it
is demoralizing. It's it's such a tough to kind of.
(01:00:27):
I can see both sides of it. I mean, yeah,
would do would I rather be sitting around? Or would
I rather be sewing something? Or I'd rather sew Maybe
maybe you've got to look on your face like you're like, no,
I can find something else to do.
Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
I don't know, I mean I get it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
Also, you know, twenty six is little, twenty six cents,
you know, even in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
That was that was twenty twenty right one, that's I mean.
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
It's too little because you're not even making enough to
actually get anything from the commissary. No, an unreasonable of
hours doing this one very monotonous thing, right, And if
we know anything about work, that doesn't give somebody purpose. No,
And you know, putting hollars on work shirts that you
(01:01:13):
know prison guards are going to wear also not exactly
injecting purpose.
Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
So you know it might inject purpose if it was
like I am making pajamas for orphans.
Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
There you go, anything else, anything else? Yeah, right, I
mean that's the problem with it. That's when you realize
this is busy.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Work, yeah, or work that enriches somebody else while you
make twenty six ounds an.
Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
Hour, right right, Or it's a waste of money, yeah,
because we're spending more money to make sure a shop
like that runs and hire the guards just so that
they can keep them busy instead of do harder work,
right like actually teach and tutor and teach real jobs
(01:02:04):
and oh you know, you know what I'm saying, and
have to make human connections with difficult people.
Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
And also I understand that that asks.
Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
A lot of an individual to like teach a so
you know, well a social emotional learning environment also with
strict discipline because you know where they've come from, and
that is a very very hard line to work. I mean,
we asked teachers to do that every single day. So
I think the guards can level up.
Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Sure. Dana Mora has had famous and infamous inmates. Lucky Luciano,
who was a mafia boss and kind of an architect
of modern organized crime, was in Dana Mora until he
(01:02:54):
was deported back to Italy to Pac Shakur. Really yet
he was in Dana Mora when his album Me Against
the World hit number one.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Really he was there?
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Wow, Yeah, old dirty bastard from the Wu Tang clan.
Oh lord, I know well, And he was there shortly
before his death. He was kind of had already his
career had waned, which is probably why he ended up
in the position did I hadn't heard of this guy,
but Gregory Corso, who was one of the original beat
(01:03:32):
poets and was friends with Alan Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac
and part of their whole crew. He spent time there
and used it as a inspiration for some of his work.
And then Joel Rifkin, the serial killer. He's there right now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Oh interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Yeah, he's serving a sentence for two hundred and three years,
so I think he'll be there for a while.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
He's probably on the fancy floor than hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Yeah. But next time we're going to talk about something
a little lighter.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah, I mean a little lighter but also funny.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Oh but funny. Yes, so campy who done it at
the White House? The Residence. Yes, it's so fun. I
have seen this. It is very, very enjoyable. I'm like,
I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, it is a little
like a play. I like the way it's acted and
(01:04:30):
all that stuff. But it's very fun. And yes it's murdery,
but it's it's you know, got a nice cheen over it.
We don't have to deal with things like the industrial
prison conc There you go, Thank you so much for listening.
We know you make a choice when you listen to us.
We don't just come on the radio. Tell a friend
(01:04:51):
because it's more fun when you can listen with a friend,
Rate and review wherever you get podcasts. And until next time,
be safe, be kind, and wash your hands.
Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Bump bump, b
Welcome back to Killer Phone, where we explore the intersection
of crime and entertainment every other week. I'm Christy and
I'm Jack and today today we are talking about Escape
at Dani Mora. It's just made its appearance on Netflix
after being originally made for Showtime. And let me tell you,
there's a lot of people that you can get attention from,
(00:33):
and ladies, I think we should leave the murderers in
prison alone.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Also, she didn't have many places to get attention.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
So I mean, I'm not saying I don't defend her.
I'm just saying I kind of get I kind of
get it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is so bad. Don't talk to me.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm just saying I get why, like, especially because like, okay,
all right, First of all, what's his face? Oh my gosh,
I've never seen him look like that at all?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Like he was full on Jesse Pinkman, you know what
I mean. I was like, what, So I kind of
get like when the.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Younger, you know, and he's not half bad looking, and
he doesn't have a tear drop tattoo, how this might
be alluring?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Well, and the actors actually look like the people who
were involved in this. It's crazy so it's like to
a almost stunning degree.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, so yeah, that's fine, but also choose better. Yes, you,
dear listener, you deserve better than a murderer in prison.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
You deserve better, you do. Oh my gosh, yes, this cast. Wow,
I mean, let's talk about it. Okay, So because they're
so good, it's so good. So Tilly is played by
Patricia Arquent. Tilly is the prison employee who's running the
(02:15):
tailor shop. Yeah yeah, I mean she got her first
real big role was a nightmare on Elm Street three,
and then she was on the long running drama Medium,
which she won a Primetime Emmy four. And really this
(02:35):
kind of came back as something for people to watch
because if you're a fan of Severance, Patricia Arquette is
also in Severance, and that's kind of why this has
picked up a little bit. It's moved to Netflix, so
more people have access to watch it.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, and they're like, oh, now that I've gotten through
the second season of Severance, I want to watch things
that the actors have been in.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, which is great because you know Paramount Plus because
it was on Showtime. Paramount Plus actually has it. But
you have to have like the higher level subscription. Oh,
we tried to open it there, but we have I
guess essentials. Oh okay, Walmart Plus subscription and it was
not part of it.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Oh well, so it seems like Netflix sent show Time
have a little deal going on, which I'm like, I
appreciate that. And then Benicio del Toro plays Richard matt
the convicted murderer. He had a history of person escapes, so, yeah,
(03:42):
he started in the eighties as a thug on Miami
Vice and then he's been in all kinds of stuff.
The Usual Suspects was probably like his first really big movie, yeah,
and then thor and Star Wars and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And it's interesting because when there's a part of him
that looks like he's in a movie that's like in
nineteen fifty three.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And then sometimes though the way.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
He like cocks his head and looks at you, you're like, oh, look,
you're a different person, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yes, what he's so like interesting?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Uh huh, yeah. Yeah. He can like inhabit these.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Different versions of the same character, versions.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Of the same character and has sort of got a
timeless sort of look. Yeah, right, like he fits in
all over the place.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, like it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
You could dress him up and he could be like
a rich guy. Yeah, he's probably often gonna be a
criminal though, but that knows too much, that's right, And
as the you know, good one, and that's.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Why he's so trapped because he is, you know, a
horse that should run free, you know this kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Sure, okay, And then we already mentioned Paul Dano. He
plays David Sweat, another convicted murderer. His big breakthrough was
Dwayne in Little Miss Sunshine, and then he's done lots
of like big movies, twelve Years of Slave, there will
(05:20):
be blood. The Batman, I actually know him from like
other stuff, The Fableman's yes and stuff like that. So
a little more that's more my speed when I'm watching
for pleasure. Though we've covered the Batman, he did. Bonnie
Hunt is Katherine Lee Scott, the New York State Inspector
(05:45):
General who investigated the escape. And if you were a
nineties kid, you recognize her because she was in Beethoven
and Jumanji and she provide the does it And so
that was like where a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Literally my husband says, I feel like I recognized the
younger version of her.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
That's why, and that is why, that is why exactly
all right, let's recap Okay, picturesque. Northern New York is
home to a very large prison, technically the Clinton Correctional Facility.
It's usually called by the same name as the little
town that it's in, Dana.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Mora, which is very hard to pronounce, by the way.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh do you find it?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Not now?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
But initially and I couldn't quite remember the name of
the thing.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Then I couldn't picture it well enough, and so and
then then I almost telling my husband.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Then he's trying to use the voice thing on Apple
to find it, but he can't quite remember either. But
it doesn't actually just fall into place the way other words,
do it like five times.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Before before you can figure out.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And then it's like it's not that hard once you
know what it is. But yeah, that's very funny.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Okay, Dan Boro, Dana Nomore.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
We know something's pretty wrong from the start because we
joined the story with Tilly, the prison employee, meeting with Catherine,
the Inspector General of New York, and they're waiting for
us stenographer, and it's very official business when you're waiting
for a stenographer I mean, I mean, this is like
(07:43):
court stuff. The only time you really have a stenographer
is like it's important. The days in prison are monotonous,
not only for the inmates but for the people who
work there as well, and it seems almost inevitable that
the employees will either become callous to the situation of
(08:03):
the people that they guard or become overly friendly with
the inmates they often see. And boy did Tilly get friendly.
Tilly oversees a tailor shop that inmates work in at
Clinton Correctional. She gets good work from them because she
takes a humanistic approach. Her kindness is exploited by two
(08:29):
inmates in particular, Richard Matt and David Sweat. Matt and
Sweat exploit Tilly's boredom and kindness while looking at every
aspect of prison life to find advantages or weaknesses in
the system, and they do find weakness.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yes, to do thoughts, Oh yeah, yeah, oh I had
so many.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Tilly was talking to Catherine and she said, I didn't
do anything really wrong, Like that's just like telling on
yourself so much, like you know it's wrong, but you
don't really think like either, you think that it's not
that wrong or that the rules are bad or whatever,
(09:14):
but you know you messed up.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, you know it.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Sometimes you can see like they might use that as
a defense, right to say like okay, but if you
if you stipulate that you were doing this, then then
you can say, well I am this, I did this,
and actually serves to say but I'm not that right.
It kind of makes a false dichotomy in a way, right,
(09:41):
And I feel like that's what she was going for, right, like, well,
yeah I did did that, but I wasn't. I wasn't
really wrong for that. But and because of that, like
I try to be a good person, so I couldn't
have done this horrible thing over here.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Right, It was like, oh, you're smarter than you let all.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Oh she's for sure, we see that, Like even in
that first episode where she is kind of playing a
little ignorant with Catherine and then she's not as ignorant as.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
She puts on.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So Tilly was in the Taylor shop and she offers
to play music. Yeah, and she says what do we want?
Do we want hip hop or classic rock? And they
kind of can't agree, and so she puts on pop
and I'm like, okay, pop is not the middle ground
for these two things. Like you're nobody's happy. Nobody's happy,
(10:37):
nobody's happy with the pop music. If what you wanted
was hip hop or especially right, yes, you.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Might have a better chance now. No, no, what she
put on particularly?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, So Tilly and Sweat aren't fooling anyone when they
go into the machine room. No, everybody knows, like the
guards know, the other inmates know. Everybody knows. And that's
where I'm like, maybe she's not completely acting with Catherine
because she thinks they're being really sneaky.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
She does think that, and so and kind of so
does Sweat a little bit, like he tells people like
are we paying careful?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh yeah, yeah really?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Oh I had so many thoughts.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I just so. The portrait painted by Matt for the
corrupt guard Geen not bad, not bad, And he really
did paint portraits. I'm not going to talk about it later,
so I can talk about it here a little bit.
In the big report that the Inspector General put together,
they include some pictures of the art. Wow, that was
(11:47):
done for Jean, who is the real person here? And
you know it's not bad? Yeah, like it's is it great? No,
but is it not bad.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
It's not bad a job.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
It's really impressive the amount of power that Matt wields,
And it's impressive and a little frightening because he really
has a lot of power over the other inmates and
even some of the guards. And it feels inappropriate but.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Also completely predictable.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yes, exactly. So Sweat made Tilly a tiny pair of
pants because he was quote unquote inspired. I'm like, yeah,
you were inspired because you just yelled at your mom
on the phone and she's the only family member you
have left who will talk to you, and you need
(12:43):
a friend. So you were inspired by desire for something.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
So Matt says to Tilly that because he and Sweat
are friends, that he and Tilly must be Yeah, And
I'm like, wait, is there some sort of like transitive
law of friendship that I don't know about, because it
seems like the whole world would end up friends if
that were true. Yeah, just because this person's your friend
(13:16):
and that person you know, that other person you're both friends, Like,
it'd be nice if it worked that way.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It does not, but it does not, But it does
in prison.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I mean, if you're trying to manipulate somebody who works there. Sure, absolutely,
let me ingratiate myself.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yes, yes, I mean to a degree.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
It's true to real life, but we don't call it friends.
It's a network.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Sure. Well, and you might meet your friend's friend and
you might become friends. But you might meet your friend's
friend and be like, I'll never need to go out
to dinner with them again, right right.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, or you just may like have a great time
and never huh ever really see each other again.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
But for business, like we do keep those contacts a
little bit to say, oh, you know somebody who I
say that because Matt is performing a transaction.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I was just gonna say, and really that's business for him.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
That's his business. So this is a business thing.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, huh yeah, Oh that's interesting. I hadn't really made
that connection, but yes, it's busy, it's business for him. Yeah,
this is his business, is the connections in prison.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
And yeah, and to his own personal motivation. So it
like mixes together, right for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So it was partially filmed in Pittsburgh, which I was
kind of not expecting. So a lot of it was
done like kind of on location up in northern New York.
But there was a prison in Pittsburgh. It used to
be called Western Penitentiary. Seems like that's what a lot
of a lot of people still called it till it closed.
(14:59):
It's actually was sci Pittsburgh, but it had been decommissioned,
and for two weeks they went and were able to
film at the prison like everything was still in it,
like it had literally just been done. So they filmed
from August to twenty seventeen to March of twenty eighteen,
(15:20):
and a lot of the inside stuff was filmed in soundstages,
so like the cells, the cell blocks, the tailor shop,
all that stuff. But when you see them outside in
the yard, Oh, that's the that's all at this place
in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
And the whole thing is largely based on the Inspector
General's report, which was one hundred and seventy five pages long.
It was exhaustive. Yeah, I don't really have any resources.
I mean I thought maybe I would be like, hey,
how do you report on the prison card doing inappropriate things?
(16:02):
But first of all, how many people are going to
need to know that?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I mean probably not.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
A lot statistically.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Right, every state's gonna have different reporting requirements, right, And
then I also kind of have like a sense of
justice of like, don't do these things wrong and also
don't snitch that are kind of at odds within me.
And then also like how long are the reporting processes
(16:33):
really gonna stay active here in the US? I don't
know in the current political climate, so maybe forever, maybe
not for long, who knows. So I guess just don't
help murders escape from prison. I guess that's what I got.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
But also get involved with prison reform, sure, because yes,
it is predictable.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Psychology can show you why it's predictable. And you can't.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Rehabilitate humans by treating them inhumanely, and and so.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
This is why recidivism is such a problem in the US.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
It's so high.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Yeah, And it's not to say that rehabilitation needs to
be like, well, it's just caudle, right, but prison guard
the whole approach really needs to be, you know, changed,
and there needs to be something because the way the
guards were talking to and the way the guards treat them, and.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
The way it's just so predictable.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
You know, thank you Stanford, you know Prison Experiment for
showing us this.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It is predictable. But you're you are going to make
even good prisoners want to escape, right, and that's not good.
I mean that's not good.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I understand their life first, but they can be contributing
to society on a much higher level, especially when they
have done the internal work.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
And then you just continue you to put them as
a rat in a cage.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Guess what? Yeah, so yeah, just say, but when you
treat them like rats in a cage, they're going to
act like rats and who want to escape?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yes, exactly, so uh huh y so prisoner formula get involved. Yeah,
so here's how it works. Christie erects her search history.
Hey an essay. We promise it's nothing more nefarious than
a podcast to find out what's true some of the
psychological motivations behind the character's actions and real life applications
(18:31):
that relate to our topic. I have no idea what
Christy decided to look up could be the same thing
that captured my curiosity or something I never thought of.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Is it true?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Well?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, a lot of it is actually really largely true. Yeah,
so there really was there. Obviously there really is Clinton
Correctional Facility. These people really did live and work there.
There really was an escape. In twenty fifteen, Richard matt
really was a murderer. He had kidnapped and murdered a
(19:07):
man by the name of William Rickerson who had been
his boss, and then he fled to Mexico. And it
wasn't until he stabs said someone in Mexico that Mexico
deported him, like they sent him back to the US too.
They extradited him, and it was only because he had
(19:30):
gotten in trouble, like they were. I don't think they
were opposed to sending him back extraditing him because at
that time we had good relationship with Mexico, so I
don't think that they were like opposed to it, but
they weren't like going out of the way to look
for him. And then he's causing trouble and they're like,
send him back to the US. And then Sweat David
(19:52):
Sweat stole a truck in two thousand and two and
was driving around in it with firearms that he'd stolen,
and they got pulled over by deputy by the name
of Kevin Tarcia, and they shot him fifteen times and
(20:12):
then ran him over with the truck and he died.
And so he pled guilty agreed to life in prison
to avoid the death penalty. So yeah, and then Joyce
Tillie Mitchell really was a supervisor in the tailor shop
at the correctional facility and did admit that she flirted
(20:36):
with the men. And the two men did live in
the same block of cells on our block, which makes sense,
and it was actually kind of like a nicer part
of the prison, Like they had televisions mounted on the wall,
and there were cooking stations, and they had access to
(20:59):
like tables and showers and telephones on the wall, and
so it was like kind of a nicer area of
the prison. So and then Jean Palmer, the prison guard,
really did do favors for Matt and smuggled stuff in
for him. And then I assume we'll see this later
(21:21):
in the show. I haven't seen the rest of the show,
but there was an exhaustive manhunt for them. The FBI,
US Customs and Border Protection because it's super close to Canada,
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms and Explosives, We're looking for him.
The state and local police, the New York Forest Rangers,
(21:44):
everybody was looking for these people. Once they actually did.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Escape, it's wild.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
It is wild. So the prison dominates the landscape of
the town. Are they also a primary employer in the town.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I mean, I guess, yeah, yes, they they are.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
The New York Times shortly after they escaped, had a
whole article and they basically everybody has a family member
who works there, like everybody in the town. Even if
you don't work there, or somebody in your household doesn't
work there, you know somebody or you're related to somebody
(22:29):
who works there. And it's the prison is providing jobs,
the community is providing labor. And most maximum security facilities
are pretty remote, and this one's like on the main
street in Danamora.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Like it sounds like did it sounds like the town
grew up around it.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Almost we'll get there, oh okay, okay. There's not a
lot else in Tanamora, but it's not as secluded as
as most prisons are. Most of the prisons are off
far and then people drive into them and like literally
I saw pictures of like school buses like right outside
(23:12):
the walls of the prison, Like it is right there
in town. But Dana Mora doesn't have bars, it doesn't
have hotels, it doesn't have a high school. Like everything's
farther away. It's really like local people right there. There's
(23:32):
not a lot else there, but it's all right there.
There are two churches in the town and they share
a priest. I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I did.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I don't know why. Maybe they I don't know, but
they share a priest. I mean, just ok yeah, I know,
just do the one. It is a terrible place to
do time.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
It looked like it. Yeah, I mean all of them
look like it. But it looked like right, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, and they call it like little Siberia because it's
so cold. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
So yeah, it's giving a Russian penestry in tree vibes.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Uh huh. Yeah. So can you go to the Price
Whacker to pick up dinner?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I mean, that was funny.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
It was funny. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I'm hoping, I'm hoping it's true.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Well, unfortunately you can't go to the Price Whacker. But
it is a reference, okay, because Price Chopper is an
actual grocery store in the northeast US. Okay, but they
did not want their name used in the show, okay,
and it's been used before. Actually. The Good Place also
(24:52):
talked about the Price Whacker and is also a reference
to Price Chopper, who did not want their name used
in that either.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
That's funny, okay, Price Wacker, it's really hilarious.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
An immain complained to Matt that his wife's phone number
was blocked, and so Matt took it to corrupt Gene
the prison guard to try and get it cleared. Can
the prison block phone numbers? Yeah, oh yeah, yes for sure.
So there's a lot of ways that this can happen
(25:25):
in the Center for Constitutional Rights in general doesn't approve
of punitive blocks on phone numbers. So a casual block
is when a customer calls and says, I don't want
collect calls from penitentiary. Right, that's fine, you can refuse
the calls. They have an issue with the calls that
(25:49):
are be they think they'll block them because of what
they call a high toll fraud, and really basically that
just means that they think that they're conspiring with somebody
on the outside, so they'll block the number. But they don't.
They can just say that's what's happening, and it's really
(26:10):
just punitive, so they don't have any they don't have
to have any evidence of that before they do the block,
so it's kind of sticky, and they can the company.
The phone company will block numbers if people have collect
calls that they haven't paid for, or if they get
too many, if you reach one hundred dollars in collect calls,
(26:33):
and then they will call you and you have to
set up a particular different sort of fee structure, like
a different way to pay and more frequent payment, or
they'll just cut you off, right, Yeah, And sometimes phone
providers will just block it so you can't get collect
(26:54):
calls from prisons.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
But that's not them blocking it. That's the phone.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Right, it's the phone company making it spam. Yeah, right,
is it spam or is it you know? Or they
just they don't want to deal with the fact that
you might not pay for these calls or whatever. And
then there's the allowed list where you have to have
the phone number approved before you can make calls in
(27:22):
or out. Right, So you have to know the person's
phone number, which I mean, I guess you already have
to know the person's phone number, but you have to
submit it and get it approved. And that's a little iffy. Yeah, okay, great,
you want to make sure they're not calling nefarious people.
But also, shouldn't you be able to call people? And
(27:42):
then there's the disciplinary one, which is the one they
have the biggest problem with. Is that for a period
of time they're just going to block somebody's number. Oh,
you're causing trouble. I'm going to make it so you
can't talk to your loved ones, right, that's so like, yeah, yeah,
I mean they should be able to choose whether or
not they talk to you. It's all sticky, but it happens.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, if it's if you need that kind of I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I feel like if you're using that kind of punishment,
you probably aren't doing a good job anyway.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Right, Well, that falls into the whole. You know, if
we treat them like they're inhuman, then they're going to
act in human ways.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
If we're going to deny them a human connection, then
we can't expect them to act anything other than the
way they do.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, And it's a little it's a little folk call
at work, right instead of just saying you, by your behavior,
have lost phone privileges, right like time out, so you're
not allowed to use have the phone for the next week,
So that it's a it's a tried and true method
of punishment to reduce behavior. Instead, they're actually psychologically torturing
(28:54):
them by they don't know what the punishment is, where
it's coming, or how long it's going to be there.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And a lot of times they may not even be
able to.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Connect it to whatever happened right until because they something
might happen, they kind of got out of line, they
got corrected, whatever, and then all of a sudden, there's
a phone number blocked.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, you haven't done anything to.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Help reduce the behavior because you didn't connect the punishment
with the behavior.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
So there's no association made.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
All you made all these people feel like is that
they're being watched all the time and none of the time.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Huh Yeah, And so they don't know and that is
a psychological breakdown.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yes, it's not helpful, it's not instructive in any way.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
No, it's not instructive.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It's not a clear cut right, And you could take
it a step further to be like, the more you
do that, the more you kind of psychologically torture them
like that, you're actually.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Increasing the behavior.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Yes, because they are feeling oppressed, and now you have
a different kind of psychological approach to the situation.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, it's not good. It's a good control tactic either,
it will backfire.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah. Like all of the sources that we use to
inform our discussion here on Killer Fun Podcast can be
found on our social media. Join us on Facebook at
Killer Fun Podcast, exploring the intersection of crime and entertainment.
You can find us on Twitter at Killer Funpod, or
(30:22):
you can send us an email at Killerfunpodcast at gmail
dot com and I'd be happy to share a link
to whatever information you're looking for. We love to hear
from you. You might learn a little something too. Well.
Since we're right here, let's do psychology break. So Catherine
the New York Inspector General tells Tilley at this kind
(30:46):
of near the start of her interview that you can't
go around, you have to go through. Hey, yeah, so
the only way out is through. Is kind of a
way to approach things because we as people will avoid
conflict or discomfort if we're able to. And Hannah Rose,
(31:14):
who's a counselor, wrote an article for Psychology Today, and
she's talking about how when you do something new, in particular,
it rarely feels comfortable at the start, and walking through
your discomfort when you do things like asking for help,
moving in relationships into seeing commitment, interviews, setting boundaries. All
(31:41):
of those things are uncomfortable to start with, but when
you do them, your life is more full and more whole,
and it's a way to grow. And so it's a
balance of listening to your gut in what is dangerous
and what is merely uncomfortable. The idea that time heals
(32:06):
wounds is not untrue, but it's you have to be
careful not to just ignore the uncomfortable parts of particularly
things like grieving. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, if you just
ignore it, you're actually not healing. You're just kicking that
(32:28):
can down the road. So if you can push through
the discomfort, uncertainty, be vulnerable, you get to live more
authentically and more whole. Yeah, so she's not wrong, she's no.
And then Robert Frost kind of coined that American poet
(32:50):
the only way out is through level up. Yourskills dot
com is talking about Robert Frost kind of coining this
phrase and idea and that sometimes when you avoid things
like speaking in public and stuff like that, you're actually
(33:11):
reinforcing your fear rather than overcoming it. So if you can,
especially if you can take small steps to get to
the next level, the next phase you're going to do better.
And that acknowledging things like addiction is how you get
through it, how you get past it. You have to
(33:35):
acknowledge it first. And it's never too late to start.
You can always keep the end goal in mind and
be able to get through and start it. Start today
or start tomorrow. And if you don't be don't think
it's too late because I didn't start yesterday.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
And then Matt WARN's sweat that Tilly's husband who's also
employed at the prison. The spouse always finds out one
way or another. Yeah. So I'm going to briefly talk
about some statistics because a lot of relationships are affected
(34:15):
by infidelity. So up to about twenty percent of marriages
and thirty to forty percent of unmarried but committed relationships
are affected by infidelity, and that a lot of people
who suspect infidelity are right. Like if you find yourself
suspecting it and you're a woman and married to a man,
(34:38):
about eighty percent of the time you're right. Yeah, if
you're a man, a little over sixty percent you're right.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
So maybe look into that open some lines of communication.
Women are more likely to have an emotional affair. Men
are more likely to have a one night stand than women.
The what you think in a heterosexual marriage of men
cheat more than women. That tends to hold up. About
(35:09):
twenty percent of men and thirteen percent of women admit
to affairs. There's surely there are people who don't admit
to affairs that are having them. And I always think
of Rachel when she's almost getting back together with Ross.
So my mother said, once a cheater, always a cheater.
(35:33):
About forty five percent of people who cheat in an
early relationship are gonna cheat again, so she's not wrong.
And it's sad. A lot of people tend to cheat
with coworkers or in laws, which is gross. And why
(35:54):
do people do it. They're bored, they might be having
relationship problems, they found out their spouse cheated, and they're
getting revenge. However, fifty six percent of men who cheat
claim to be happily married, so it's not necessarily dissatisfaction
(36:17):
in the relationship that causes this. Yet it's yeah, it's difficult.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
I mean esther Perel has probably one of the most
you know, oh, she's amazing, groundbreaking, you know viewpoint on this.
And you know she's known more for her like therapy
sessions now, but when she's you know, put out her
book and her research on infidelity right and how to
rethink infidelity, you know, she really harps on. Okay, you
(36:47):
could be happily married, but the expectations in Western marriages
are crushing. And sometimes it's not that you're unhappily married,
but you're crushed by expectation that you will never actually
reach and so you reach for something that you can
achieve well in that moment, right, just to make somebody
happy and somebody makes you happy, and it's like check
(37:10):
check yeah, And so I'm simplifying it greatly, oh absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
But the idea being that you know, we put a.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Lot of stake into marriages, even in fidelity right and
the whole point of it, and so we put so
much into it that it's hard, it's hard for it
to not break right. So well, for.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Sure, when you're expected to be, you know, a partner
in always like you're supposed to be the best friend,
you're supposed to be the lover, you're supposed to be,
the caretaker, you're supposed to be a parent, you're supposed
to be a child, you're supposed to be all of
these things within this relationship. It's really unrealistic.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
It's unrealistic. And not only that, I mean we just
put so much.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
They're supposed to be the ones who help us self actualize, right,
become our best self, right, and all of this kind
of and you know, there's just the social isolation, the
lack of the lack of community to provide so much
and not sure what to do about it, but just
to know that, you know, the lack of community that
(38:16):
we have is actually putting more pressure on what we
would think of as the nuclear family. And so it
presses the nuclear family so hard, yes, you know, and
when people have those expectations, they're more likely to turn
inwards to the nuclear family rather than turning outside. To
be available the power of availability, right, and so when
(38:37):
we don't, when we're not available to you know, people
in our community or in our social networks and things
in that ways, it also means that we can't even
practice it well enough to actually be available to our
spouses in the ways that they are supposed.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
To be available.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
And so we just have a we have right now,
the Western culture particularly, we have no idea how to
be available.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
No, it's hard. I mean we just there's a lot
of uncertainty and a lot of expectations around how we
should be that are even outside of just like what
kind of employee are you supposed to be? What kind
of child are you supposed to be? What kind of
friend are you supposed to be? All of these things
(39:22):
like that you feel like you're supposed to be don't
leave you any room to especially especially in late stage capitalism,
like what kind of employee are you supposed to be?
Takes up a lot of your life and it doesn't
leave a lot of space for you to be the
other things.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
No, it really it does it.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
I mean economic of the socioeconomic situation absolutely puts, you know,
even more of a pressure point on it, because you know,
if you're working two jobs, if you're working you know,
if both spouses are worth working two jobs, and you've
got kids, the way there time for and the way
the daycares are, it's just it we put so much
(40:04):
stock in the nuclear family that friendships used to happen
among the other things that happen in our family life. Right,
it wasn't supposed to be an outside expectation. It was
supposed to be you know, sort of part of you know,
I don't know, ubiquitous, sure, sort of the water we
swim in rice fish right like that's you know, imagine
(40:27):
if fish had to make time for water like you can't.
That doesn't make any sense. Well, social network, we shouldn't
have to make time for it. It should just be
alongside what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Right, And it's not.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, so I don't know how to fix it. I'm
just complaining about it.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Well, I don't know that we can fix late stage capitalism.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
No, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
I hate to think about what it will take to
fix that because I have a feeling it's going to
require breaking a lot of things and I'm not ready
for I'm not ready for things to shatter. I know,
but it's hard yep. But back to cheaters. They get
caught mostly because they feel guilty. Oh that is uh,
(41:20):
Body and soul talk to a sex and relationship therapist
Laura Maury, about half of infidelity incidents end because the
person confesses to their spouse they feel guilty. Well good,
(41:41):
so either it's because they know they need to come
clean in order to save the relationship, or because they're
ready for their marital relationship to end and they know
that this will break it hereficably. Yeah, So that's the
long and short of it. A lot of people find
out because someone else told them, but that's much less.
(42:06):
It's about half that confess. Eighteen percent are told by
somebody else. Seventeen percent or caught because their partner checks
their phone or other device and catches them location tracking,
suspicious behavior, the person they're cheating with tells you, yeah,
(42:28):
it's not great. Or four caught red handed. That seems
like the worst one. Really. You don't want to catch
your spouse right handed. You don't want to walk in
on it.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
I don't think so either. But also, I mean there's
no wiggling out of it if you catch them that way. Yeah,
but you can't unsee some things.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
No, no, but the leverage is yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
And then you know, half confess, but also about half
never get caught. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, so I'm pretty sure.
I'm pretty sure. Well, actually I know she got caught
because I've get to.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
My research right right, Well, and like you know, the
guards the guards. Everard is talking, you know, and he knows,
he knows something's wrong. He's also a complete curmudgeon. And
I can't help it because I'm trying not to. I
don't want to defend her. No, I don't want to
defend her doing what she.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Did at all.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
But you can see, like you can understand like why
because she's got expectations put on her by the society
that we live in. She's like he's not living up
to his end.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Of the deal, right, Like she's so like lonely, you know,
and he's such a curmudgeon.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
And you know, what is this music? I like, isn't
it saying?
Speaker 3 (44:00):
You know she has to beg him to get out
of bed to deal with the snow, like you know,
there was just these little hints, you.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Know, beg order. Yeah, I mean she does kind of
like I don't know, I'd be pretty ticked off if
somebody walked in my bedroom with the snowshovel.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, he's supposed to be up already.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Well, that's true. He is supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
He's supposed to be. I am not your mama. I'm
not your mom. See that is the difference.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
We have to expect hired of our of each other,
right like as.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Women particularly talk about all the different labels.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
We put that mom cap on towards our spouses a lot,
and we just have to decide. No, right, no, no, no,
I'm not going to mother you into this. You're gonna
just wrap up your end of the bargain. And I'm
not throwing you a parade for doing the simplest task
of picking up after yourself, right right, If you're supposed
to be up and helping me with this task right now,
(44:55):
and I've tried nicely for a while, No, at that point,
this is.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
A no super fair boundary. Yeah, I'm walking in the
bedroom with a snow shovele.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, like it's time. Yeah, right, Or give me money
for a snowflower.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Uh huh, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I can give choices. I don't know, because I can
be bought.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, we all have our price. People will say I
can't be bought like you are a liar.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I can be bought.
Speaker 4 (45:22):
I know.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
It may not be money, it might be something else. Yeah, okay,
but everybody's motivated by something different, that's right. But we
all have our price.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
It's all a negotiation, real life.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
So a little backstory on the prison. Clinton Correctional Facility
also known as Danimore in Prison is over one hundred
and seventy five years old.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
It looks old.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
It's very very old. Initially they put it where they
did because there were mining operations nearby. Oh okay, and
they wanted to use the inmates's labor.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Okay, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
It makes sense. It's sticky and ugly because it's basically slavery.
But yeah, the mining operations were a failure, but the
prison stayed there, so it's been there a long time.
It's a little sticky, but it is a huge employer
(46:25):
in that area. Yeah. So Tilly, her real name is
Joyce and she's named after her mother. She tells Catherine
that when you call me Joyce, I feel like you're
talking to my mom. Oh right. And I was like,
she's a junior. Where are they're women juniors?
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Hello, Gilmore girls?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I mean there are there are women juniors, but just
not that many.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, they don't get to be called junior though.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
A few havel but not often. You can't. You could
give your daughter a junior name if you want it to,
you can mark. They'll put it on there give them
a little suffolk smark the box. Whatever. But we can
blame the patriarchy because Washington's City paper asked this question
(47:21):
and back in twenty fourteen. The progeny who need to
be conspicuously number or ordered chronologically are the ones who rule,
and in generally though not always, they've been male.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Right, because the inheritance and all of that passes five.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Orth order exactly. So like Queen Elizabeth the second she was,
she gets the second because she is ruling, but only
after she got to Queen right. She wasn't Elizabeth the second, really, No,
until she got to right Queen right, because then it
(48:01):
was There'd been a lot of Elizabeth in between. Oh yeah,
But only when she received a status did she get
the high that the number the moniker that way, it
was not that way. In classical Rome, sequential naming remained
(48:24):
literally descriptive, since all girls in a family bore the
same name. So if there was a family name, they
all got the same family name. So Uhcripio Africanus, who
was a general in ancient Rome, there was the family
(48:46):
name of his I guess of his wife was Cornelius,
so the daughters were given a feminine of that name Cornelia,
and so they were Cornelia Africana. So mother's family name,
father's family name. And then they were named major and minor,
(49:09):
big and little Big Cornelia, Little Cornelia.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
Because the girls didn't deserve their own name.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
But the men, the boys got their own name.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Sometimes I think so is weird. In the eighteen hundreds,
naming a child after the mother was the mark of
a bastard because either they didn't know who the father
was or he didn't acknowledge that the child was his.
(49:40):
So if you had a daughter that was named exactly
like the mother, it is because she didn't know who
her daddy was. There have been some juniors or seconds
for mostly notable people. It's usually unusual stature that where
a woman have a junior or whatever. So Anna eleanor
(50:03):
Roosevelt is named after her mother and she has a
junior title.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, it's you can do it.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
But it seems weird to us because people don't do it.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
People don't not so much.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
No, not so much. But it's fine. I don't know.
I don't really like junior for anybody. I asked my husband,
I'm like, do you want to do you want if
we have a boy, do you want him named after you.
He's like, no, no, I don't want that. I'm like, okay,
well that's fine. He was like, give him their own name.
(50:42):
I have no problem with juniors. But also like, I'm
not my in law's naming ability. Wasn't so amazing that
we had we had to name him juniors. Yeah. So
there's a term for how Tilly was manipulated by the inmates,
and it's called drowning. The duck is what they call
(51:06):
grooming prison staff, which I was like, oh, that's that's
a thing, isn't it. And she really had been. They
had cultivated a relationships with Tilly over many months, made
her feel like she was loved and special in a
lot of ways. And she was supposed to pick them
(51:31):
up after their escape, and she ended up changing her
mind at the last minute. And she did cooperate with
the police, like she like went to them and said,
here's some of the things that happened. I'm going to
be honest with you. When she realized that they were
like gone and not caught right away, she confessed a
(51:52):
little bit that she didn't go pick them up. Probably
saved her life. Because they were planning on killing her
husband and oh uh huh, And they believe that they
would have killed her as well and stolen the vehicle
and the supplies that she was supposed to get for them, right,
(52:15):
and that they probably would have killed them both and
then run and yeah, so probably a good thing. But
she did't go to prison. She got out in twenty
twenty though. Okay, yeah, speaking of going to prison, Lyle
Mitchell didn't know anything about her activities what in prison.
He didn't know what she was doing, and the police
(52:37):
believed that he really didn't know.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
And they're still together. Oh yeah, like he he believed
her version of it, her version where she said that
she only that she didn't engage in an actual relationship
with them. She was flirtatious and kind of went along
with what plans they said because she was afraid for herself,
(53:04):
for her husband, for their child, their son. It was
from a different relationship. But I think he Lya adopted
her son anyway, that's not really part of the part
of the whole thing. But he really believes her and
has chosen to believe her, and they are still together.
(53:27):
And Joyce did not like this show.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Oh, I can imagine not.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
Ben Stiller is the son of a bitch liar, just
like the rest of the world. He doesn't care about
the truth. All he cares about is making millions off
of me. He's an idiot, Like, Oh, I can see
how she would feel that way. Yeah, he didn't help
anybody escape from prison. Yeah, and it is fictionalized in
(53:53):
a lot of ways. A lot of it is fairly accurate.
There are some things that have been changed. So yeah,
so Sweat really wanted a prison transfer, Yeah, because he
didn't like Little Siberia. Yeah, he said it was too cold.
He's moved a lot since his escape attempt. So between
(54:15):
twenty fifteen when he was sent back to prison, he
was injured in his when he was recovered, and when
they sent him back to a different prison. Oh yeah, dude,
jo't imagine that they're going to send him back to
Danama when that was where he just escaped from. By
twenty nineteen, he'd been moved to four different prisons. Yeah,
(54:36):
they moved him around a lot, and then in twenty
twenty two he was in yet another prison, and then
he went on a hunger strike because he didn't like
where he was, and that was he was trying to
initiate another prison transfer. He's done a hunger strike a
number of times, so this is not new for him.
(54:57):
This is in his playbook of things to do. He
did not like the prison that he was at because
he had been moved closer to Dana Mora. He had
been in South New York, which I'm sure he liked
the weather a little better, and he was closer to family,
and for whatever reason, they moved him like two hours
(55:18):
north of there, which was much closer to Dana Mora.
He did not want to be there if he wanted
to be as far away from Tana Moor as he
could get, and he wanted to be close to his family,
and so he did this hunger strike and then a
judge was like, that's too bad that you don't like
being there, because you're going to stay and I'm going
to authorize feeding tube, so you should maybe just eat. Wow. So,
(55:42):
as far as we know, he's still there.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
But he's moved around a lot. I think that's six
prisons that he was in since twenty fifteen. That's a
lot of moving around. Yeah, that is so the tailor
shops in various prisons, but particularly in Clinton Correctional they
do have a mission. So in eighteen ninety three they
(56:06):
officially organized core Craft, which is the Division of Correctional
Industries as to build these sort of vocational opportunities for people.
And core Craft is only allowed to sell to public
entities or charitable organizations, so it's not really supposed to
(56:30):
be like a money making venture sort of situation, like
it makes some money, but that's not supposed to be
its main intent. It's more to give vocational training. About
one fifth or a little less of the inmates can
work in the tailor shop at Clinton Prison. The total
(56:53):
population there is about two thousand people, and about four
hundred can have a job at the tailor shops. There's
a bunch of them. It wasn't just the one room.
There's a bunch of them. The good news is that
no matter what you are doing, time for or how
long you're there, all jobs are available to all inmates.
(57:15):
So depending on your ability right now, it doesn't mean
you wouldn't do something and be told you can't work
there anymore. But just because you're there for you know,
a more minor thing or a more major thing doesn't
mean that you can't have what's considered a good job.
(57:35):
Core Craft has other sorts of manufacturing jobs. The typical
what you think of license plank making, yep, that's part
of it, but also metal fabrication like making cabinet slockers, signposts,
engraving services, stuff like that are all there. And really
(57:57):
it's to keep people busy. Yes, you want to give
them vocational options. A lot of these people are there
for a very very long time, so they may not
really need vocational training for when they get out, because
they may never get out. But you'd think it'd be like, oh,
this is a way to give them purpose in life,
(58:17):
and it is. But really it's more like keep them
busy so that they don't bug the guards, right, which.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Is a little sad, a little sad.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
And that is sort of reflected in the actuality of
working in the tailor shop in Clinton Correctional So a
man named Wesley Williams, who was an inmate, wrote a
little article for The New Republic about his experience working
(58:49):
in the tailor shop. So from seven to twenty in
the morning until two thirty in the afternoon, he puts
collars on t shirts. Okay for twenty six months an hour. Yeah,
it's not a lot, and core Craft says it's to
teach good, worth, ethic and valuable life skills. However, Wesley
(59:14):
has found that the tailor shop supervisors often don't know
how to work the actual industrial sewing machines that are there,
so they're not really learning a ton. And he's also
seen a lot of racism that white inmates get far
preferential treatment, and that's a problem, he said, though I'm
(59:39):
working against my will, I'm told almost every day that
twenty six cents an hour is considered good. Since the
tailor shop is the highest paying job in the facility,
am I supposed to be grateful? So I get it.
Do we want to give them a sense of purpose?
And I understand that they're making anything is you know,
(01:00:02):
they're not just paying for their They're actually getting something
so they have money to spend in the commissary or whatever.
They're not just paying back for their right incarceration for
their own upkeep. They are actually getting a little something
for it. But it is very little, and so it
is demoralizing. It's it's such a tough to kind of.
(01:00:27):
I can see both sides of it. I mean, yeah,
would do would I rather be sitting around? Or would
I rather be sewing something? Or I'd rather sew Maybe
maybe you've got to look on your face like you're like, no,
I can find something else to do.
Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
I don't know, I mean I get it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
Also, you know, twenty six is little, twenty six cents,
you know, even in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
That was that was twenty twenty right one, that's I mean.
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
It's too little because you're not even making enough to
actually get anything from the commissary. No, an unreasonable of
hours doing this one very monotonous thing, right, And if
we know anything about work, that doesn't give somebody purpose. No,
And you know, putting hollars on work shirts that you
(01:01:13):
know prison guards are going to wear also not exactly
injecting purpose.
Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
So you know it might inject purpose if it was
like I am making pajamas for orphans.
Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
There you go, anything else, anything else? Yeah, right, I
mean that's the problem with it. That's when you realize
this is busy.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Work, yeah, or work that enriches somebody else while you
make twenty six ounds an.
Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
Hour, right right, Or it's a waste of money, yeah,
because we're spending more money to make sure a shop
like that runs and hire the guards just so that
they can keep them busy instead of do harder work,
right like actually teach and tutor and teach real jobs
(01:02:04):
and oh you know, you know what I'm saying, and
have to make human connections with difficult people.
Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
And also I understand that that asks.
Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
A lot of an individual to like teach a so
you know, well a social emotional learning environment also with
strict discipline because you know where they've come from, and
that is a very very hard line to work. I mean,
we asked teachers to do that every single day. So
I think the guards can level up.
Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Sure. Dana Mora has had famous and infamous inmates. Lucky Luciano,
who was a mafia boss and kind of an architect
of modern organized crime, was in Dana Mora until he
(01:02:54):
was deported back to Italy to Pac Shakur. Really yet
he was in Dana Mora when his album Me Against
the World hit number one.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Really he was there?
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Wow, Yeah, old dirty bastard from the Wu Tang clan.
Oh lord, I know well, And he was there shortly
before his death. He was kind of had already his
career had waned, which is probably why he ended up
in the position did I hadn't heard of this guy,
but Gregory Corso, who was one of the original beat
(01:03:32):
poets and was friends with Alan Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac
and part of their whole crew. He spent time there
and used it as a inspiration for some of his work.
And then Joel Rifkin, the serial killer. He's there right now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Oh interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Yeah, he's serving a sentence for two hundred and three years,
so I think he'll be there for a while.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
He's probably on the fancy floor than hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Yeah. But next time we're going to talk about something
a little lighter.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah, I mean a little lighter but also funny.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Oh but funny. Yes, so campy who done it at
the White House? The Residence. Yes, it's so fun. I
have seen this. It is very, very enjoyable. I'm like,
I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, it is a little
like a play. I like the way it's acted and
(01:04:30):
all that stuff. But it's very fun. And yes it's murdery,
but it's it's you know, got a nice cheen over it.
We don't have to deal with things like the industrial
prison conc There you go, Thank you so much for listening.
We know you make a choice when you listen to us.
We don't just come on the radio. Tell a friend
(01:04:51):
because it's more fun when you can listen with a friend,
Rate and review wherever you get podcasts. And until next time,
be safe, be kind, and wash your hands.
Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Bump bump, b
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