Just Breathe - Murder Mindfully

Mindfulness should bring about a sense of balance to one’s life. If you’re Bjorn in Murder Mindfully, that might also involve… homicide. German preschool, uncomfortable silences, the benefits - and adverse impacts - of mindfulness - we explore it all!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome back to Kilkano, re explore the intersection of crime
and entertainment every other week. I'm Christy and I'm Jackie,
and today today we are talking about the international show
on Netflix Murder Mindfully. I mean, I guess that's better
than murdering thoughtlessly.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
I mean truthfully.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, I mean I guess maybe I don't know. I mean,
would you rather somebody just like go bananas and I
don't know and do it? Or do you want somebody
to like think about it.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
I feel like if I'm going to be murdered, I
almosto have deserved it.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Which means somebody would have had to think through it.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
I definitely abhoor mindlessness.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Sure above all, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
So actually I kind of annoyed because the first murder
not mindful ish. It was mindful adjacent. So I was a.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Little like, but no, yeah, I get it, and the
whole mindfulness thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Okay, I have so many thoughts anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
I guess I'm glad because I have a whole lot
of stuff to talk about. I don't think, so I
like tried to pare it down as I'm like, and
I'm like, remember, we're only talking about the first episode.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Man, maybe this is one of those shows where we
just have to do another episode on it so we
can talk.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
About all the rest of it. Maybe I don't know.
Maybe well, well, well maybe we'll come back to that. Okay,
we'll consider that. Okay, yeah, all right, you know, let
us know on the socials. Would you like to hear,
you know, our thoughts on the rest of it. I mean,
because it's so digestible, this is signs Netflix, Netflix, Yeah, yeah, easy, yeah, yeah,

(01:59):
And it just it just keeps going. It's so easy
to be like, oh, yes, one more please.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Oh I just sat there forever.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
And then my husband came in and he says, oh, well,
how much of this are you having to watch for
the podcast?

Speaker 2 (02:12):
And I was like, oh, I blewe past that hours ago.
I'm just watching now. It's great. He was like, this
sounds good then exactly all right.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Briefly, the cast okay, because it's in German, it is okay,
and it's dubbed really well. Netflix is really really good
at this where they know now that they're making shows
for international audiences, and they have this translated into a
bunch of languages, and they're very good at filming in

(02:45):
a way and over dubbing in a way where either
the mouth isn't center as far as like when someone's speaking,
or they dub in such a way that it's not
as noticeable that it's overdubbed.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
It's really remarkable.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yes, and I can't wait to know if you could
find the voice actors.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Oh, I did not look for the voice actor because
they sound familiar. Oh okay, well I will look for
that and put that on the step socioles if I
find out. Yes, I had a hard time.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Okay, I went looking immediately because I was like, hmm,
this has some three percent actors in it. Absolutely like this,
Like there was a couple of voices where I'm like, oh, oh, oh,
I know you.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Netflix has their favorites they do for these voice actors.
They're doing a very good job of supporting voice actors
and they use them routinely.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
And then and just to say, the voice actors, if
you're listening to this right now, you did an amazing job.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah. This cast. Tom Shilling is Bjorn the defense attorney.
He's been like in almost all German stuff, so he
is over seventy credits. He's going to be very familiar
to German audiences. I don't really recognize him for much.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Something about him just says movie star. I feel like
he's familiar to me.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
I don't think he is.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
No, just think he has then he's just got that look,
like he's like kind of effortlessly kind of gorgeous, yes,
but kind of unassuming too. He's not like a big
beefy dude. But no, he's like.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
He can be. He can look a lot of different ways.
He can be very yeah, almost unappealing. Yeah, should he
want to? Like, I had to go through pictures because
I thought I knew him from something, Okay, and it
turns out he don't. He just has that look. He's
got the it factor, Yes he does. Emily Cox is Catherina,

(04:51):
his Bjorn's wife, and listeners might know her from a
Netflix show about Vikings called The Last Kingdom. She was
in many episodes of that, so she's done some things
that are in English that we might recognize. Peter Jordan
is Joshka Brightner, the mindfulness coach lots of German television,

(05:15):
but also he was in the two thousand and nine
movie The International, about a corrupt bank. That's probably the
biggest English thing he's been in and then Sasha Alexander
Gersak is dragon.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Which he's unrecognizable.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Right exactly, and again almost all German language stuff and
lots of it, lots and lots of it. But he
is very much a chameleon. Yeah when it comes to
his work. So he was really funny. Yeah, we're gonna
get there. It was really fun Okay, So recap, Bjorn's

(05:56):
a workaholic. That said, he hates his job because it's bad.
It's a bad job. He defends bad people, he does
questionable things, he's on call all the time, making him
absent from his family life, and all of this to
just be merely tolerated by his office with absolutely no

(06:18):
hope of promotion whatsoever. Bjorn's wife insists when he misses
his daughter's birthday that Bijorn take a mindfulness course or
she's going to end the relationship. And I think he
sees the writing on the wall. If he ends the
relationship with his wife, there's not going to be a

(06:39):
lot of time with his daughter. So I can't really
tell who he really wants to salvage the relationship with more.
I think it's the daughter, but he also is not
opposed to fixing the relationship with his wife. Does the
mindfulness course change things for the better? I don't know.

(07:02):
It definitely changes things.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
I'm silent, it's so heavy. Huh, Yes and no, yes
and no, yes and no, yes and no.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Then his most important and ruthlessly unhinged client makes unreasonable
demands after a heinous act. The twelve weeks of mindfulness
training that Bjorn has just completed are about to be
put to the test. I was trying to explain the
show to my husband, and I'm like explaining it. I

(07:37):
looked at him and I said, I swear it's funny
because it is. It's a dark comedy, though it's so dark.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
It's a cross between Dexter and you.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
And I don't mean that plot wise, because not in
any respect is this some sort of copycat.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
The plot is its own plot, its own driver.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
The structure of the show where you have the character
who does break the third wall on a decent car,
you know what I mean, and also has the narration
like explaining to you what's going on in their head
right in the silent moments. That's a thing pioneered by
Dexter and you Yes, and they take it to that
next level.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
I yuess and it's great, so good, it's so good
sights and pots. So Bjorn is forty two when at
the at the beginning of the show and when he
makes his first kill, I'm like, isn't there something about
like forty two being the answer to the universe in

(08:43):
the Hitchhiker's schedule. Indeed there is, Yeah, exactly. I was like,
forty two. That's it. He's he's found the meaning of
his life. Yes, here at forty two, and he.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Doesn't know what the question is, Yes.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Exactly, exactly. One of the first things we see is
Beyorn letting body parts into a wood chipper, and I
was like, wow, on the one hand, what an effective
way to get rid of a body, Like there's no
body left, it's two tiny and pieces, it's going into water,

(09:20):
it's a whole thing. And also that wood chipper is
just lousy with evidence. Yeah, it's gonna be difficult to clean.
It is difficult.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
He did it though, I mean later we know, but
like he attempts to later, but like, yeah, I thought
also my first timer, that was not a bad choice.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
I was like, maybe this is why you should wait
until your forties.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, because you like to do some things because you
have snorter ideas.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
We don't condone murder, we do not. No, like, don't
don't murder. Do that, even if you're in your forties.
Don't murder anybody do that. But if you're a woman,
you're gonna want to because we're done.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
But also, wood chippers are very heavy and cumbersome, right,
you know, And you have to have a lake house
with some relative privacy in order to do this, because otherwise.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
It's not it's not good. No, but it's not good.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, in that case you need if you're like in
the middle of the city.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Oh yeah, wood chipper is the worst choice.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
You gotta be like, no, that's that's a freaking bad
situation where you have to have a barrel and a
certain amount of acid.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Right yeah, which I think was kind of mythbusted a
little bit, a little like it's like it's not quite
as fast as well, but you need to have pigs.
Oh yeah, they'll get rid of it. They'll get rid
of it. Oh that's the point. That's that's my limit
right there.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Don there.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
I'm going to guess that homicide wasn't the change that
Catherina was hoping would result from her husband after the mindfulness.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
I wondered that myself, like, but also she knew about Dragon,
she did.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
She keeps saying dragon, like like he's in Game of.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Thrones, and I saw Game of Thrones, but.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
I keep saying dragon Dragon.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
It's not like at one point the overdub at some
point and I've watched episode five six, on episode six.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
You were finished. I finished it.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
I noticed a couple of times it was translated as
just dragon, yeah, And I was like, oh, maybe that's
not kind of a nickname, right, like because when he's
signing contracts, it didn't look like dragon. Maybe dragon is
like kind of the But I kept hearing it in
West Seros like yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Maybe he's illiterate. Maybe that's why. Well it was a signature.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
It was hard.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
But they also always referred to to him as as
mister or whatever when you're talking about his client name,
but like dragon dragon, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
I don't know what I was not to say with that.
That was my fight with that. I don't know, but
that's okay, that's where we're at.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah, no, oh oh oh, the wife knows.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Oh yeah, she totally knows because she tells him no
mob right, no mob at the baby.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Also like she's doing that like reverse psychology thing, a
little bit like whatever you have to do to man
up and take care of this situation and get yourself
out of it, you need to do.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, And you.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Know what, if I was forty something and wanted to
kill a man, this is where I'd go to make
that happen. I'd get myself mindful because if you hadn't
think she.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Thought about it, mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
And then she slips it to him like, uh, I'm like,
you know what, that woman might be in more control
than we think.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Uh huh, that's right. Well, she got him to go
to the mindfulness coach, which I'm like, Okay, I couldn't
get my husband to go to a mindfulness coach. Gosh, no,
not in not chance. There is no alternate universe, no

(13:05):
where I have said to my husband, will you please
go for mindfulness training? And he has said yes, not
a chance. No. Well, and I love my husband, he
is a dark like one, sweet human being.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
But no, I think my only beverage would be like
you already do.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
Yoga, because like my husband already does the yoga.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
This is just one more stack.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
But like later on in.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
The series, she she tells them something about a kindergarten.
Uh and because their child can't get into a kindergarten,
which is a whole nother discussion.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Half we're gonna get there, good.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Go good, where she finally says, this is what you do.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
You could you convince people? Oh, you convince them?

Speaker 2 (13:48):
And she does everything except winker eye.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, yes, I mean she really does. She's like, this
is what you're good at. Use it for your daughter.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, do it?

Speaker 1 (14:00):
So, like, okay, she knows more than yeah, then we
give oh, yeah, for sure, give her a screen time
for I laughed so hard when Biorn asked if there
was a way too fast track the mindfulness Trading.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
I loved that conversation so much, like in the most
the most nerdy way possible.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
It's like, this is the one thing you can't fast dragged, dude.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
He's like, can we fast dragged that?

Speaker 3 (14:32):
And then but the coach responds to say, well, you
can run the road, but it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Make it any shorter. Uh huh.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
And he says you'll get there faster. And the coach
loves that, loves that response. Oh okay, and that's where
he relaxes and introduces himself.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
And I kind of like, all right, dude, the commitment,
the need, the urgency. I think the coach saw that
ability to like grasp it quicker. And you're right, it
does not make the road shorter. You do get there faster.
And I think the coach was actually a little excited.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, it's still took twelve weeks. He's still well because
money is money, Yeah exactly, but maybe they ran a
little further down the road than your average I think
they did. I think you're right, Joshka. The mindfulness coach
tells Bjoran that focusing on his stress is a noteful
and I'm like, yeah, you think our brains are jerks,

(15:33):
though our.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Brains are evolutionarily.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Guard yes exact, I mean I get it. This is
a retraining of the brain. But just to be like,
it's unhelpful to focus on your stress, yeah, well, we're
gonna have to have some uh tips on how to
do better at that because evolutionarily, our brains are jerk

(16:00):
and we're going to focus on that.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
So we're at least going to acknowledge it. Right, how
long we stay at that rest up?

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Right, that's a different situation.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Right, Oh, this is where I nerd it out.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, oh I knew you would. I'm watching it, and
I'm like, we picked the right thing to watch.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
This is right right, because every step of the way,
I'm like, is that okay?

Speaker 1 (16:19):
That sligns backed Okay, yeah that's science.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Oh okay, Ellen Langer cue her up, and like go ahead,
like there's actually some good there's some good stuff behind this.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
It wasn't just hogwash nothing.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Uh huh.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
It's so easy to do, uh huh. It's so easy
to do in a show like this, but they actually
stuck to it.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
I thought they did a job.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah. I was shocked to see four year old Emily
in a booster seat in the front seat. They do
explain it later, they do. Yes. I was like, okay,
good because but I was like at first, I was like,
what that baby should not be in the front seat. Yeah,
it's okay. Germany does have the same rules around that
as we do, by the way, and yeah, Bjorn knows

(17:07):
the laws, so he's all good.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
But he also made a safety decision and he explained
that as part of the y when he was being
all awful, and I was like, okay.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, Okay, Yeah, so Bjorn has to go to the
office unexpectedly because the mobster dragon had made a mess.
And it's amazing how depending on who the focus of
a show is, how skilled or inept police look, depending

(17:39):
on who your protagonist is, Because when the police are
the focus, they are very skilled and very careful and controlled,
and the police are not the focus, and this one
said they look utterly inept, really obvious, completely inept, and

(18:01):
I just was like struck. I'm like, oh, yeah, this
is the police procedural, right, Like our protagonists are the
bad guys.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
And frankly, all the stuff that they did, if it
was a police procedural would probably look pretty smart.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, if we didn't know the rest of the story, right,
that's very interesting.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, And it was like, oh, Dagon be smarter. I'm like,
he's got his name because he's a dragon. His knuckles
on the ground, I mean, I mean, okay, so light

(18:41):
a fire under somebody's butt is metaphorical dragon. Yeah, And
I'm like every sentence out of his mouth really just
the bulb crew dimmer, I mean, every single sentence. That's
why you got a one.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
You gotta wonder are our criminals like this. I want
to talk to one.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
I want to talk to the head of something sometimes
get a feel for the situation. Uh huh. I feel
like that would give me a better understanding of our world,
you know, whether I'm ahead or behind? Yeah, okay, Dragon
his number one, right, his second?

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, so his number one.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
But the second yeah, the lieutenant, Yeah, he seems he
seems not okay. But the third one, uh huh seems
very uh huh. Yes, he concerns me.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Oh he also pacifies me.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Uh huh.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
And I'm like, oh, so what I need to be
doing is not looking.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
At one and two.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
But who is number three? Uh huh, there you go,
mm hmm. Yeah, that's the one.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Who is confident to take their children into the park
and play.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (19:58):
That's a later episode, yes, but nevertheless, the point being, yes,
that is what he does.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yes. So this space on a book.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
I saw and I was immediately like, that is so good.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
I mean, it's written by Carston Duce. I think it's
Duce Dusse. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. It's
an international bestseller. It's sold two and a half million
copies worldwide, which is amazing in Germany alone. It's sold
over a million and a half copies. Yes, which is

(20:35):
I looked at that. The population of Germany is about
eighty three million. It's almost two percent of Germany that
has purchased this book. Wow, that is bananas, right, that's great.
That's a lot. And it's been translated into twenty six languages.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Also, I wish far more people read.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
I mean, because you know, seven billion right now, we're
taking aback like, Ohike.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Fad Man, that's fine. Not everybody likes a murder story.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Well, I mean not true. But it's a life story.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
This is true. Okay, I don't have any resources. Don't
work for the mob. Don't work for the mob.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
I mean, but if you're a lawyer and you're stuck
because your partners are awful, take some mindful discourses.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Maybe maybe that.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
So here's how it works. Christie erects her search history. Hey,
an essay.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
We promise it's nothing more nefarious than a podcast to
find out what's true some of the psychological motivations behind
the character's actions and real life applications that relate to
our topic. I have no idea what Christy decided to
look up could be the same thing that captured my
curiosity or something I never thought of.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Is it true? Obviously we know the story is a
Holiss fiction. No, yeah, yeah, it's it's not true. But
Bijorn makes his first killer forty two. Is this late
on time early for a serial killer?

Speaker 2 (22:13):
For a serial killer?

Speaker 1 (22:15):
I don't know the rest of the story. So he
does say that that first week is pretty busy when
it comes to bodies, so that maybe it's not a
serial killer. Maybe it's a like a spree killer.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
I don't know, but I'm one episode. I have yet
to watch episode six, seven, eight I have.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
I would say that where I'm at, we're not really
looking at us free but no, so I'm.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Waiting on that.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah, but I would say that, like, yeah, I don't
know that A I don't know that I would call
him a spree killer. He's in the middle of like
trying to save his own life. Sure, and so no
matter what he does. Sure, any good lawyer, a lawyer's
goes him could make a self defense case one hundred percent. Sure,
every study's taken so far as to protect himself and
his family. Sure, And I'm kind of like, yeah, Okay,

(23:07):
I don't know, So I mean not that I agree
with killing. Don't do a me like that, Okay, But
I'm just saying, like, if I was to think about it,
I think it's pretty old for a serial killer, Okay,
I think it's I think spree killer based on whatever
the motivation is could be really all over the map. Sure,
So I was like, even if we were given an average.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
I'd have to divide that up based on motivation.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Uh huh, that's fair?

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Is that a complicated answer to it?

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Is a really come So if we're just looking at
him as a serial killer, it's a little old.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
It's old.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
It's a little old. Sou Criminologist Eric Kikey did some
research looked at four hundred serial killers. Eighty four percent
of them were male. The average age was twenty seven
and a half at the time of their first killing. Now,
most serial killers are not well educated, so Bjorn would

(24:08):
definitely be in the minority as having not just an
advanced education, but a like a graduate gree write a
graduate degree, right, because he most serial killers maybe have
graduated high school, right.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Which would delay his start because he would have more
resources in place to prevent him from doing certain things.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
He was too busy in his twenties, he was doing.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
To law school, but he was still he had enough
education at the time to understand that it was so
far outside them.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
That he was able to delay. Uh huh, right, which
would be scary. Right, that amount of intelligence and that
amount of self.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
Control, right, which is super unusable.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Which is so hard.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, because if you have that amount of self control,
likely it never happens to begin with, Right, you're able.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
To control the rest of your life. Yeah, if you
have those kind of thoughts. Yeah, So Catherina Bjorn's wife
is having a hard time getting their daughter Emily into preschool.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Is early childhood education competitive in Germany? I didn't know, Okay, yeah,
I had to look it up. Yes, it's very competitive.
So kindergarten, which we understand as part of public school
starting at about five years old, is a little different
in Germany. It's for children who are between three and

(25:41):
six years old, and they enter into public school at
six years old, so basically it's basically preschool, right, and
they start traditional public school at about first grade. Okay, Okay,
There is no set curriculum they but they're working on
socialization and if the teachers keep track of what the

(26:03):
kids are doing. But there's no like set curriculum, there's nothing,
there's nothing they're expected to know right exactly. There's no
like they should know all of these things by the
time they start school at six. No, they kind of
assume that all the kids are coming as a blank
slate and if they know more, great. Almost all kids

(26:25):
end up going to kindergarten of some type. It's very
very common because it is not required. It is very
competitive and not free, and so it's usually based on income.
So Bijorn's going to be paying the most, right because

(26:46):
his income is high, despite the fact that he's not
a partner at his firm. But yes, they're long waiting lists,
so you'll want to put your kid on if you
are going to take your kid, do you have a
small child wild that needs to be in kindergarten? In
Germany there are not a lot of dual language programs

(27:08):
and they are going to be the most expensive. But
if you have a three year old, they'll probably pick
up German. It'll be all right, Yeah, just send them,
but yeah, it's not going to be free and you
are going to have to put them on a waiting
list and wait for quite some time. That's interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
I mean, like our city, San Antonio has pre K
for us a right because kindergarten is not required by
the states, right, but it is offered, right where's pre
K is not?

Speaker 1 (27:35):
Right? Yeah, And so there's a push to kind of
get kids ready. Whether that's good or not, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Asian countries start at pre k. Uh huh, that's like
early required. When we lived in Korea, like the little's
were going, yeah, it's a school early. It was part
of their education, like they started school right early, but
it was shorter days.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
I would say there are days.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Overall were shorter, sure, as far as it seemed to us, right, well,
and that's how the kindergarten is. It's like you drop
them off nine ish, you pick them up noonish or
mid afternoonish, and yeah, they're not there all day.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
So I don't know. Germany seems to be doing ri Yeah,
so as far as their children's education goes, so uh,
you know, maybe we don't have to really like push
so hard. But also I don't know how rigorous there are.
That's I mean, that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
Like what we learned in America during COVID was how
much time is wasted in our school day.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
That's fair. What even is mindfulness?

Speaker 2 (28:44):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Okay? So according to shash Kiprightner mindfulness coach, it is
the brain and body acting in unison. What does Berkeley
in their online publication Greater Good.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
I don't think it's gonna be that much different. I
think the comparational definition will sound somewhat similar. Okay, I
think I think, you know, colloquializing it the brain and
body doing the same thing. Where she gives the example
of if you're in a hall, you're in a hall, right, you're.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Standing with the hall?

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yes? Wrong? Right?

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Mindfulness is the intentional being in a space, rather than
the mind being sort of somewhere else while the body
is trying to do something else.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Sure, yeah, yeah, I think that's that's right. What this
article has to say is mindfulness means maintaining a moment
by moment awareness of our thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations, and
surrounding environment through a gentle, nurturing lens. So which I
think is good. You know, and it's like feel your

(29:50):
feelings and don't judge them and try to understand if
there's something you want to do differently because you're feeling
the feelings that you are in that moment. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
I think one of the biggest issues I deal with
even in college teaching psychology is the idea that the
emotions should not be judged.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Sure, that the emotions are data points.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
It's so hard because our culture, especially I would say
for people in our age group, have that really come
to find fault and moral information based on our feelings?
Oh yeah, when it's like, it's not a moral thing

(30:35):
based on our emotions.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Oh sure, sure, because emotions are not the same thing
as feelings. Sure, feelings are not the same thing as
the moods. Right, So like feelings connect moods and emotions.
Emotions are data points. They're fast, they happen a milliseconds. Yeah,
they're quick.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
They can last for longer, sure, for sure.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Depending on how the stimuli enters the body. Like it's
a continuous you know, fear continuous you.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Know, but happens quickly.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
Feelings is how we align those emotions with our value
as our priorities, Okay, which is where we come to
the idea of mindfulness.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
If your priority in your what you value.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Is what whoa whoa?

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Whoa what?

Speaker 3 (31:16):
Right, then your emotions are data points that inform how
you were going to respond in light of those, and
that's your feeling. The issue is that when an emotion
comes in that makes us feel guilty, what we realize
is it's not the emotion that's wrong. It's our value
and our priority that's wrong. Sure, and our value and

(31:37):
our priority says that emotion is signaling that we should
feel guilty about something, And so what are we going
to change?

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Is there something to change?

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Right? Maybe maybe you don't need to feel guilty, Maybe you.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Don't need to maybe you should by all means right,
But maybe you should by all means feel guilty about things.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
You should feel guilty, right.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
But like, oftentimes, what we realize is that the emotions
aren't lying to us. The emotions are responding to our
neural pathways as they process the information that's coming in
at us. But our feelings are aligning them with our
priorities and our values. And then what we don't realize
is that oftentimes we are blaming the emotions when we

(32:17):
ought to be reevaluating our values.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Wow. Okay, that's a lot to unpack there for my
little gen X mind.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
No, for every mind that comes into my gen psy class.
I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, y'all.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Can breathing help your emotional snake? Yes it can, Yes,
it can. Yes. Now, things like eating and sleeping and
exercise obviously affect your mood. Yeah, you to sleep better,
eat better, move more. You're gonna feel better.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Sleep with exercise are so underrated. I may even scream about.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
It, I mean, for real, but you're breathing can really
you can trick your brain. This is how silly our
human brains are that when you're in a stressful situation,
you breathe faster, and if you just breathe slower, you

(33:20):
can trick your vagus nerve, which connects your brain and
your body into thinking that there's nothing to be upset about,
because probably there's nothing to be upset about. Really likely
often often, I mean you know, notwithstanding when you're dealing
with the mob, maybe there actually are things, but you
might be able to more clearly handle those things if

(33:41):
you calm yourself down by doing deep breathing.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
It's true.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
I mean, firefighters, first responders, they all have to deal
with this. They have to retrain their bodily and conscious response. Yeah,
to be separate from the emotions that they're feeling. But
the emotions, so however, they don't ignore them, No, they
they categorize them differently.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Sure, right, like they set up they set up reminders.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Hey, if I'm still feeling this way by the time
I climb that second flight upstairs and.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
It's a roaring fire, I may want to vacate.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah, but right now it's okay, Like I'm going to
allow my higher level processing to order my behavior rather
than allow my fear of the situation to then result
in a feeling that causes a responses not congru it
with my values. For somebody who's a first response, so

(34:41):
their values are to go in and help the people,
they're willing to endure the risk.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
So they have to remind their brain of that.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, but their brain isn't wrong. No, it is a yeah,
it's dangerous, it is a.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
Risk, and so teaching ourselves to deal with that is
really hard. But then when we're overactive, when we have
an emotional response that is sending us data that this
is a fear response, and then your higher order processing
has to have an open line of communication to say, oh, no,
it's not, it's fine, it's.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Not you're okay, and you can get in touch with
that in a few different ways. You can do diaphragmic breathing,
where you breathe into your belly, where you actually pull
your diaphragm down so that your lungs can fill up completely.
You can do paste breathing, which is a little bit
like boxed breathing, but it's a little bit different. So

(35:35):
it's you breathe in for a count of four, you
hold it for a count of four, and then you
exhale for account of six and that really helps your
brain and body to connect really well. And then meditative
breathing where you breathe in and then you tell yourself

(35:56):
to relax, sigh it out. Yeah, so you sigh it out,
do that ten times, set yourself with reminders to you know,
for two minutes, just two minutes, that's all you need.
Your watch will tell you. Yeah, yeah, it'll tell you, hey, breathe.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
Breathe, breathe, and you can do it. You're like, okay,
breathe and it'll take you through that whole process.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, it's great. It's fantastic.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
If you ever wondered why artists and like singers like
to speak their mind about things, this is whye by
the way, because singing takes that breathing. Oh cool, you
breathe in for two two counts and then you sing
a phrase the sixteen counts.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
It's an insane amount of control between what the brain
wants and what the body wants uh huh all together,
and it does actually create sort of an insight.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
It allows when you wonder why, like why are.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Singers there's just a pop singer, why are they speaking
out of this political stuff or this or scientific stuff.
It's because they have connected in a way that most
people have not.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Well, that's why many of them who write their own
songs can be such good lyricists, because they've done this
brain body connection and actually are able to make some
connections and insights that other people might not be able
to get. And that's why they can give words to

(37:20):
your feelings and though they don't know you. That's right exactly.
Joshka says that silence makes Bjorn uncomfortable. It makes so
many people, I mean, particularly if they have social anxiety.
Psychology today has a whole explanation of it. Now everybody

(37:40):
has a little bit of social anxiety at some points.
Almost everybody not everybody. Most people have a little bit
at some point. You know you're in a situation where
you don't feel comfortable, and then you have some social
anxiety about talking to somebody about it. Those people tend
to be the ones who have the hardest time, but
you know, because why at moments they do make us

(38:02):
face our thoughts and be with them. And that can
be the last place that a lot of people want
to be is with their thoughts. And when a pause
occurs in conversation, absence of a sound can let people's
insecurities take over social anxiety or not. Everybody's got a

(38:23):
little insecurities, and quiet can make you feel that way
about it. We don't see it as neutral. A silence
is neutral. We see it as failure or rejection or judgment.
It's okay, so acknowledge that you're uncomfortable and recognize that

(38:43):
sometimes silence is just a normal part of the way
things are. It doesn't have to be awkward. It's a reframing, really,
except that sometimes quietness is going to happen. I know
that's funny because you know, when I edit this podcasting,
go when I take out long silences, because I value

(39:03):
your time listener not because I'm afraid of the silence.
Right up, you can lean into the pause, don't rush
to fill the gap in the conversation, just let it exist.
If you find yourself in noisy environments all the time,
maybe it's a chance to reevaluate and give yourself quiet

(39:27):
moments so that you can practice this. Yes, yeah, you
can use the uncomfortable silence. Yeah, BBC. The subtle power
of uncomfortable silences. And English speakers in particular are uncomfortable

(39:48):
with long gaps. Japanese are happier with silences of over
eight seconds, They're okay with it. And for native Englis
speakers for seconds and we're starting to get uncomfortable. Yeah,
it really makes us have a hard time negotiating. So

(40:11):
if cultural differences are reflected in the saying in the
US that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, while in
Japan it's said that a silent man is the best
one to listen to. So when we have a very

(40:32):
heterogeneous culture like we do in the US, there's a
mix of many many cultures we need to speak in
order to be able to understand one another. Now, the
Japanese tend to be okay with longer pauses because they're
more homogeneous culture and they understand that they're where they're

(40:54):
coming from is a shared place, and we feel like
we need to talk to try and be understood, and
really we need to let that go. That's why it
gets so awkward. And particularly when you're in a business
sphere where you're negotiating things, people from other cultures know

(41:15):
that we're the people from the US are uncomfortable with silence,
and they will just sit there and shut up and
let us dig our own grave. Yep, dig our own
lesser negotiation. Yep, lean into it. Just sit there, breathe,
use your breathing techniques, do your diaphragmic breathing, yes, practice

(41:35):
with colleagues, practice with your family members and friends, and
you know, get used to just sitting there and being comfortable,
being comfortable in a silence because it's really like valuable
to you. And if you know that other people are
really uncomfortable with silence and you're negotiating something with them,
or you're having a conversation where you're trying to come

(41:57):
to agreement about something that's important to you, boy, just
sit there. Yeah, who cares if they feel judged that's
that's on them, that's their feeling to deal with, not yours,
not yours well.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
And like in sales, so like literally training just came
down from like, you know, I I sell memberships in
my dance studio, which is believe in, Yeah, if you
belong there, you should be there, Like okay, But it
was kind of talking about the fact that salespeople who
extend a silence to eight seconds have a better chance

(42:32):
of actually closing the deal. But the University of Texas
reports two point seven is the seconds that the average
salesperson talks after asking for the sale, like giving the
choices to seven.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
And so here's the issue.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
A brain needs six eight seconds to process it, to
think through it, to make a decision.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
And you're talking through that, uh.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
Huh, you're literally talking through somebody else who was actually
talking to themselves.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
The silence isn't because they're not They're nobody's talking. They're
not talking to you, So sh be quiet, let them
talk to themselves. Give them a minute, right, give them a.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
Second, eight to be precise, if you will allow them
eight seconds to process and then and then maybe they're
at a point where.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
They can actually report back to you.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Whether this sale is is healthy for them, and that
you know, in our in our business, I get a
dance studio, we really care about like we don't want
to be a financial burden, so we really do want
you to think about it. So be quiet, people, let
people think, Let people think through it. It will be
better because if they're able to do that, then we
can get them started and get them healthy. If they're questions,

(43:48):
they'll think of them in not eight seconds, they'll think
of them and ask you know other than that, like
but like eight seconds, But that's good for all of us,
like every time, and sometimes then I feel like I
can extrapolate to not just making a sale, right, but
eight seconds to figure out what the craft is going
on right now?

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, in any any situation. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's fine.
And you know what, if you need that eight seconds,
take it, you should take it. Take it. I feel
free to be like I'm still thinking about it. Yeah,
let somebody sit there.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, but we're trying to train people to be like,
okay with the eight seconds.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Eight that's it. It's not very long.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
It's not long.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
So now porn situation is unique. But can the average
person ignore a work phone call on their off time.
I will can, I don't know? Can? Should? Waizer? Things? Will?
These are all questions you have to answer for yourself. Now. Unfortunately,

(44:54):
in the US, we have this thing called at will employment,
uh huh, which basically means that your job can fire
you at any time for any reason, at least in Texas.
In forty nine of the fifty states, forty nine Wyoming, Like,
I'm what, Wyoming is the only holdout what for at will? Yeah,

(45:21):
it really sucks. So there are reasons why you can't
be discriminated against based on the Civil Rights Act of
nineteen sixty four. So your race, creed, color, nation of origin,
or sexual identity, those are things that they should not
be able to hold against you. If you're going to

(45:42):
prove that, you do have to show a pattern of
discrimination in order to be able to prove that in
a court of law, which is difficult to do. In
the US, we are not federally afforded vacation or sick leave,
So that means that they can call you on your

(46:02):
day off or your time off. They might have to
pay you for that time for you to answer the
question that they have. It depends on where you live.
But they can fire you for not answering unless you
have a contract that stipulates otherwise. And your employer does

(46:23):
have to have at least fifteen employees for many of
your things, like a religious event that they are not
allowed to call you during. But if your employer doesn't
have fifteen employees, then oh they're not bound by that.
The Family and Medical EVE Act can help protect you

(46:43):
in some of these situations, but you have had to
have been at the same employer for twelve months, worked
at least twelve hundred and fifty hours. They need to
have at least fifty employees within seventy five miles, so
the can help with this. So if you're on leave

(47:04):
due to a major life event that is caught that
either you're injured or you're caring for somebody who's injured,
they may not be able to call you. But again,
like you, you have to qualify for all of those things,
so technically they can just fire you if you don't answer.

(47:25):
I think Biorn was more worried about being murdered for
not answering. Yeah, so Bjorn's a lawyer, not a fixer. Yeah, yeah,
So what is a fixer? I mean? Yeah, yeah, Okay,
so they're both legal and less so. So a fixer

(47:45):
is just basically somebody who can help you with aspects
of your life that you are not able to handle
on your own. So for some people, their assistant might
be their fixer, right, Like the assistant does things that
they don't have time to do, that makes appointments for them,
and you know, takes care of a situation that is, uh,

(48:08):
they just don't have time to do, so that could
like make them a fixer and that that's ethical and
above board and totally fine. And then you have like
you know, Nixon's plumbers at Watergate, right though, they were
fixers and that was uh, extra legal, very nicely. But

(48:31):
there are people who are fixers and they don't break
the law, and but they do something sort of extraordinary
like in some way like maybe they know who really
runs what, who really has the power in an organization
or a city or something like that. Somebody who just

(48:53):
has a lot of knowledge, and that is typically what
your legal fixers are going to be. And it's they
might be like trading favors, like in this article from
Vice that we're talking about fixers, like they're like, oh,
it's more about like trading favors. So this guy wanted

(49:13):
to meet the pope, and the fixer made that happen,
and in exchange, the fixer got something that he wanted, right, Like,
he he made this cool thing happen and then he
also got a favor back. Yeah, so it's not necessarily

(49:34):
we always think of it as like Mike ermantrout from
breaking Back. Yeah, he's a fixer and all of his
stuff was very illegal for the most part that he
was doing, you know, but it could be just campaigns
will use them, yeah, you know, you know, to figure
things out. Yeah. All of the sources that we used

(49:58):
to inform our discussion here on Killer Fun Podcast can
be found on our social media. Join us on Facebook
at Killer Fun Podcast, exploring the intersection of crime and entertainment.
You can find us on Twitter at Killer Funpod, or
you can send us an email at Killerfunpodcast at gmail
dot com and I'll be happy to share a link

(50:18):
to whatever information you're looking for. We love to hear
from you. You might learn a little something too. Psychology ries,
so mindfulness can have benefits for many people. It's being
president in the moment. We've mentioned that there are different
ways to do it, you can do. They basically had

(50:40):
three types and psychhub about the benefits of mindfulness. Three
ways to do it or body scan meditation which is
you lay down and pay attention to your body. Then
they have sitting meditation which is you sit and pay
attention to your body, I know, and then walking meditation

(51:00):
move and pay attention to your body. Okay, that's great.
It can reduce your stress, enhance your relaxation. It can
help you approach conversations and relationships with more openness. It
can improve your cognitive function like your attention and your memory,
and help you with your emotional regulation. Positive Psychologies says

(51:24):
the five most common benefits of mindfulness or decreased stress,
which I think is what Jorn was looking for. The
enhanced ability to deal with illness. So if you have cancer,
that will suggest mindfulness. It won't make your symptoms less,
but it can help you handle them better. It can

(51:45):
facilitate your recovery, so after you've recovered, you're in the
recovery mode from something significant, whether it's an injury or
illness of some kind, it can help you do better.
A study of young breast cancer survivors showed that those

(52:06):
who practiced mindfulness were kinder to themselves. They had decreased
rumination and decreased stress. They can help lower depressive symptoms,
and you can have overall better general health because you're

(52:26):
paying attention to your body. So if you're having something
going wrong, you're going to be more likely to take
the opportunity to correct that. But as with anything, results
will vary. In Very Well Health had an article about
too much mindfulness can actually worsen your mental health. So

(52:47):
they did a study where they looked at people who
did eight week programs of mindfulness based cognitive therapy, and
then they went to these people three months later and
interviewed them to find out how well it remained, how
well after they completed their therapy things were. Fifty eight

(53:09):
percent of the ninety six participants had at least one
meditation related adverse effect. They might have perceptual hypersensitivity so
they hear things too much or feel things too much,
or they might have nightmares or re experienced trauma. Thirty

(53:32):
seven percent of those found that it had effect on
their daily functioning, and six percent of them said it
lasted for a month or more. So the most common
adverse side effects were disrupted sleep, wake cycles, anxiety, disassociation,

(53:53):
and then emotionlessness, flashbacks, issues with executive functioning, social withdrawal,
and again the hyper sensitivity. So all of these things
we call them adverse effects because they were disruptive. Now,
hyper sensitivity may be great when you're doing something, you're

(54:14):
in the hot tub and you've got this hypersensitivity and
you feel the you know, jets everywhere on your body
and it's wonderful. And then you're trying to fall asleep
and you can't stop hearing the clock ticking. Yeah, you know,
that's when it becomes a problem. So all of these
things they could be okay. Maybe you don't need to

(54:35):
be feeling strong emotions all the time, so a little
emotionlessness is okay for a short period of time, but
when it ricks, I.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
Mean, the problem is that conflating the idea.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
There's a confliction of the idea of mindfulness, huh, and
feeling emotions. Sure, mindfulness doesn't necessarily mean feeling the emotions
all the time, right, And a trauma informed mindfulness might
avoid some of the adverse impacts. Because a lot of
the adverse impacts, as as you just described, are very

(55:10):
similar to PTSD. Yes, So there's a hyper awareness that's
not mindfulness, right, that's mindfulness, yes, exactly. You know the
flashbacks that's particular to post modict stress sure and post traumatic.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Stress syndrome and and some others.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
But like the idea that you would be so hyper
aware of your emotions all the time, it is not
necessarily mindfulness.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
Right, sure, but it's but they're they're not being taught
in these eight week programs what's mindfulness and what's not? Yes,
And the six percent who had the worst negative side
effects were spending more time meditating, so they were they
were ruminating on their situation rather than learning to accept it,

(56:04):
recognize it, deal with it, let it go. And that's
the problem.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
We say these things and we operationalize them, right, But
were they meditating or were they not?

Speaker 1 (56:13):
We don't know, right.

Speaker 3 (56:15):
All we can do is look at the effects, right,
And so it is hard because we want, we do
want to understand the limitations of mindfulness, you.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Know, because at a little distraction goes a long way.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Sure, But also were they meditating or were they simply
ruminating on what their mind was doing rather than being
mindful in the moment.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
It's hard to know right for sure exactly, and yeah,
it is hard to know. However, the idea that meditation
and mindfulness might have some side effects is not.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
New, no by no means.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
So there's the Dharma Ratra meditation scripture that is a
Buddhist text is fifteen hundred years old, and they even
had symptoms of depression and anxiety that could occur after meditation,
and occasionally even psychosis or disassociation or depersonalization where they

(57:23):
feel that the world is unreal. These adverse side effects
aren't particularly rare, so you should definitely be careful and
moderate the amount of time you do this. That's why
two minutes of breathing exercises is a good idea. You
don't need to spend hours and hours a day. No,

(57:45):
you don't need You're not Buddha. You're not trying to
like float above the ground underneath the tree. You don't
need to. You don't need to go months without eating
because you're you know, in this state of nirvana or whatever.
And there is a professor of management and Ordain Buddhist
teacher named Ronald Pruser who wrote a book in twenty

(58:07):
twenty three called Mindfulness, and he's really frustrated because he
said mindfulness has become a kind of capitalist spirituality.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Yeah, that it's like real heal therapy speak for sure.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
He is arguing that it's unethical to have mindfulness apps
and meditation classes and even clinical practices that don't give
people warning of what the adverse side effects could be
so that they can make an informed decision about how

(58:44):
much mindfulness and how much of this practice they really
need to engage in, and whether they need to pull
back because it's worsening their depression or anxiety rather than
easing it.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Yeah, it's hard because you know, mindfulness, there are different types, sure, right,
If you offerationalize it only as being learning to be
mindful in the mo that everything you do is intentional,
that lessons the adverse impact. Mindfulness often is conflated with
self reflection, sure, and a pseudo sort of.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Meditation, yeah, which is religious.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
Yeah, so that's not a therapy right right, And that
and that is where.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
We have to be very very careful.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Depression with self awareness and self reflection is common.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Yeah, it's common.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
They're already doing this. We don't need to. We need
to figure out ways to relieve those upsetting situations and Unfortunately,
a lot of these practitioners who don't understand mindfulness but
are yet our leading mindfulness you know, activities will tell

(59:59):
you you just need to meditate more for it to
go away, and that's actually the opposite of what you
need to do.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
You have done for those individuals.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
I would ask the question, do you believe in depression
as a disorder?

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
Because if you believe it as a disorder, you have
to understand that these things might worsen it because the
way that they might understand things are already put through
a lens of depression.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Sure, and so no matter how much.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Insight might come from it, they're only going to see
one side of the moon, right, you know what I mean?
Anxiety also the same, you know, And so that's the problem,
is the idea that these disorders are not truly real.
The sad part is that there are a lot of
people who are feeling symptoms of anxiety and depression that

(01:00:49):
could release a lot of that should they go through
true mindfulness and meditation in the way that it's intended,
Because it would actually refrain an open their mind to
certain things and help them to understand see the things
that they are looking at. With a certain lens that
I was like a little like off, you know, a
little disorted. Okay, that's good, but not not understanding the

(01:01:15):
real diagnosis.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Sure is a problem.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
And that's a problem psychology well, because depression could be
both a diagnosis as a major depressive disorder or depression.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Is a sympt right, it can Those are two different things.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
It can be yes, it can be both, and it
can be they can concur and they can also be
separate from one another, and any Joe Schmo can put
up a shingle and say I'm a mindfulness coach and
really screw you up. So this is why it's important

(01:01:52):
to engage professionals who've had training, yes not just like
mindfulness training, but like a psychology training, to a point
where you can like talk to somebody who understands that
there might be negative ramifications from these things and help
you reframe it in a way that it's actually going

(01:02:13):
to be beneficial rather than like just do it more
and you'll get past it, because.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
I mean like really learning to read the research on
your own or learning to read the reviews.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
States are different. States have different regulations.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
And sometimes regulations mean that those in practice have the
rigorous training you need.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
Yeah, and sometimes it doesn't right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
Sometimes it guarantees that the people understand it at a
broader level cannot practice.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Oh jeez, Texes, excuse me, excuse me. Real life, few
people have sole killing jobs like Bjorn does. Most sole
killing jobs are more mundane, more mundane.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
So this one's a faith based article, but it's got
some good things in it, and it's be high, which
I don't know if you know very much about it.
It's like a combination of Eastern Buddhist and Christianity.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
What they this particular person noticed was that they were
watching a documentary and society as we have it today
creates meaningless work for people, and that the gallup pole.
I went and looked up a more recent one than
this article in twenty twenty four. The report shows that

(01:03:42):
only twenty three percent of employees are actually engaged at
their job. It's it's really not good. And so we
have like a lot of people, particularly in Europe and
North America, who spend their lives performing tax that they
don't really believe need to be done. And that finding

(01:04:05):
purpose and that you're making a difference in your job
can be really important. So if you can find a
way to either find value in your work or create
value in your work, you're going to be a lot
happier and that can help you not feel like your

(01:04:26):
job is soul crushing. But sometimes you can't leave that
soul crushing job. So an advice column in Forbes has
some tips about how you might survive for a time
in a soul crushing job. You're not really stuck, you can.

(01:04:47):
You may need to stay there because it's inconvenient financially
for you to quit. Theoretically you could still quit, and
just that shift in your mindset that they actually need
you there because they're paying you to do the job
can help you alleviate some of that there, Like I

(01:05:07):
don't have to be here, I could go find another job.
Maybe I do need to go find another job, but
I could quit right now. It would be bad, but
I could do it. Journal about what your future plans
are and make a list of how that job can
help you achieve those goals. What can you do at

(01:05:28):
this job to help you build the skills or the
tools or make the connections to help you get to
your ultimate goal. If you feel like there's something about
your job that could be changed. Open a line of
communication with your superiors and say, hey, look, you know
this thing. If we did this thing a little differently,

(01:05:49):
it might actually might be more helpful, and that can
give you a little bit more ownership and maybe make
it a little less soul crushing. So remember that your
job is not everything about you, it's the only part
of you. Maybe try and bring a little positive energy.
What can you do to make your day better? What
can you do to make your coworker's day a little better?

(01:06:12):
And then maybe everybody you'll feel better. You might actually
change the culture of your terrible job by coming in
with a mindset that I'm going to try and make
this day a little better in a small way, and
that slowly will change things. May change things, and not
will it. May some places are just terrible to work

(01:06:35):
and that's just the long and short of it. And then,
you know, really just keep your future in mind. What
can I be doing now? I don't have to be
here forever. That's some ways to survive. So Bjorn and
Catherina's marriage improved after he moved out. Yeah, he says,

(01:06:58):
as much, live it and living a part together is
a thing. Yeah, yeah, So I literally I was watching
this and I had literally heard an article on NPR
about it like a couple days before, where I was like,
what living apart together? Is this like trend? And it
was people who were married declined between twoenty and twenty nineteen,

(01:07:24):
so fewer people are getting married, but the percentage of
people who remained married and lived apart started to grow. Now,
the pandemic changed that a little bit, but in twenty
twenty one, there were almost four million people in the
US who were living apart from their spouses. Almost three

(01:07:49):
percent of all people who were married were living and
that does not include people who are separated considering divorce.
Oh my god, this is happily. This is well, yeah,
like people who have decided for whatever reason, they shouldn't
live together, but they should remain married. And this is

(01:08:10):
actually tends to be really good for women and tends
to be what women want. So it's about it's about
living in a different space so that you can be
responsible only for yourself or only for yourself and a child.
So like they the lot of examples of this, like

(01:08:31):
a mom needs to move and be in a different
space so that a child can have education, And that
was what worked for them for a time. It includes
military spouses and stuff like that. Now that's not always
what you want, but maybe it works out okay. And
women when they live with a spouse tend to have

(01:08:53):
a disproportionate amount of work at home. So even if
they work outside the home, they have a disproportionate amount
of work in the home. And when you separate your
living spaces, your spouse is responsible for their space and
what they eat and when they eat it, and do
they clean it, and do they do their own laundry,

(01:09:15):
and all of these things that women tend to do
they no longer have to do. And it's just this
like growing trend that seems really interesting to me, and
it can be really good, particularly for women, particularly for
women of backgrounds where they had a very strict upbringing

(01:09:37):
where they never lived on their own. And many couples
don't do it forever, no, but they'll do it for
a time and that makes sense and they feel like
they're dating again, and it's just like this kind of
nice thing. Ray of Perlman and Danny DeVito have been
doing this since like twenty twelve. Wow, they split and

(01:10:01):
there they're not divorced. They have no plans of getting divorced.
You know, it's interesting because we don't know what's in
their relationship, but they decided in twenty twelve that they
were like, we should live separately. I don't know if
they have you know, dating sorts of things, but they
have children and they were together for a really long

(01:10:21):
time and they decided they needed this space. They still
do all their holidays together, all their vacations together, they
spend time with their grandchildren together, but they're not married
or they're not living together. They're not living together, and
they don't have any plans to divorce. They find that
this really works for them. So here's this like kind

(01:10:43):
of high profile couple doing this together apart situation, which
doesn't I don't think I would particularly like it, but
I'm a little needy, but I can see like the
appeal of it for a lot of people. Yeah, if
you can afford to do it, that's well. Yeah, the

(01:11:04):
other choices.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
If you can't afford to do it, you just make
them do their own laundry. They can take care of
their own meals if they're not going to be there
when you're going to cook and do the thing, and
you'll be happy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
To cheer them on about that. And that was another
thing that they talked about in that article, was that
they would do the separateness and then realized when they
moved back in together that they maybe they wanted separate
bedrooms or maybe they wanted a larger space in which
to live. It tends to be slightly older people who

(01:11:37):
were doing a lot of this right Like, they're just
done with the treagery of the day to day. They're
probably in a financial position where they can do this betterly, Yeah,
finally better, they can do this and it works out
well for them, and when they do come back to
live together, they have a there are new rules right there.

(01:12:01):
There are There are new rules, There are new expectations.
And you know, your spouse appreciates what the other person
does for them more. You know, both of you appreciate
those sorts of things, and yeah, you know what we do.
We need our own bedrooms, or we need a bigger space,
we need whatever to change things in some way. You

(01:12:22):
need to be responsible for your own laundry, or we
need to split up the cooking or whatever it is.
It works for a lot of people. So I thought
it was kind of interesting and.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
I think we just don't have enough of that conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
Sure, and that it's growing. I mean it's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
Having more conversation about well it works and what doesn't Sure,
without expectation or guilt. Sure that especially for the women
to not provided Yeah, for whatever reason.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
You know that if we.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
Provide it, because it makes us happy to provide it, right,
rather than being a burden. Right, And that's different, you know,
Like I remember early fights with my husband about like, oh,
I did the dishes, What do you want a ticker
tape parade?

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
Yeah, you cleaned up after yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:13:07):
Good for you, you know, Like these are the fights
we had. And now every time one of us does
the other and honestly, he does dishos far more than me.
And it became like a if I want them done
now is because I want them done now, but could
not because it's a moral judgment. Right, Really, nobody we're
not having There's no maggots in our sink, Like, it's

(01:13:30):
not that kind of a situation. So I used to
feel as guilt, like I have to get it done,
I have to do the thing. And I was so
jealous of he's playing with the little kids until he
finally was like, well, why do you have to do
them that night?

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
You can play with the kids. You're right, huh, yeah,
you're so right. Why do I have to get them done?

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
I don't care about that. I'm it's like b personality.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
I literally have no, no inherent need at all.

Speaker 3 (01:13:55):
So now it's like if he gets them done because
it makes him feel happy, he feels happy right because
he did the.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
Thing, and you can express gratefulness it's done.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Yeah, you don't need to throw a participate grade, but
you can appreciate it and tell him tell him so,
and he feeling good about that, will also say, hey,
thanks for doing that. I appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
He loves it because he got done something that was
felt like pressing to him for whatever reason, and he
got thanks for it. And I feel happy because I
was able to thank my husband for something and I
didn't have to do it. Yeah, it's great, Yay, Yay
next time.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
So Ben Stiller's best work is when he's behind the
camera for like the Liturgit show that we talked about
last time, Severance. But we're not going to talk about
Severance because it's it does not abide by enough of
the same principles that we understand for us to be

(01:14:57):
able to make judgments about it. However, he's just done
another show that also has Patricia Arquette in it, and
it's called Escape at Dana Mora about a prison break. Yeah,
I can't wait. We're gonna talk about that next time. Yes,
thanks so much for listening. We know you make a
choice when you listen to us. We don't just come
on the radio. You choose to put us in your ear. Hey,

(01:15:18):
tell a friend, because it's more fun when you can
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And until next time, be safe, be kind, and wash
your hands.