The Assassin of Monte Cristo - Kleo

We are BACK and we DOVE into what some have called Killing Eve’s replacement: Kleo (Netflix). The shows share some characteristics - communist ties and kick-ass women assassins - but the anti-heroes of the shows are quite different, particularly with their motivations. From Big Eden to Happy Birthday, there is a lot to chat about.

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Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Welcome back to Killer Fum, wherewe explore the intersection of crime and entertainment
every other week. I'm Christy andI'm Jack, and we're so glad that
you're back with us today. Todaywe are back from our hiatus. Thank
you so much for being patient withus while we were gone for a few
episodes. But you still have allthat fun content. So oh my gosh,
such fun content and such fun thingswe talk about, that's right.

(00:33):
I mean, we just can't fitit all in. So that's you know,
it's we could, but we don'twell, so that we can't take
hiatuses now and then and again becausewe had to do some you know,
summer vacates, that's right, notgoing anywhere, but like staying here and
just you know, not doing andyou had plans to go places and do

(00:54):
things and they kind of changed,and yeah I did. And it's just
but it's also very very hot.It's just gonna say, it's like the
surface of the sun here, LikeI don't understand, it's just I mean,
it's just I mean, like thehottest summer I can ever remember.
Yeah, I don't even have wordsto describe it. I'm just stunned.

(01:15):
I'm stunned. I'm just stunned.Sorry, girls, quote unquote cool day.
It's one hundred and two, Imean fahrenheit. It's like paralyzing in
some ways, you know. Yeah, But then I stay out. I
sit at a desk inside and Ido work or I do something and like
the ace, and then I geta little chilled because you're in and you're

(01:38):
like, oh, go outside andget that fresh air. And you walk
outside and it's like fifteen seconds beforeyou're like, oh yeah, wow,
yeah that's enough. Yeah. Welland it's humid too, so but it
won't rain. But it won't rain, so is literally it's it's the same

(02:00):
feeling when you open an oven thathad something with a lot of moisture in
it, and you open the ovenand you get hit in the face by
the hot and moist air. Yes, that's exactly what it feels like walking
outside right now. Yeah. Soit was a good summer for a hiatus
for us to stay inside and doa vacation. But to be fair,

(02:21):
I did go outside. I havean excellent tan. You do have an
excellent tan there. I mean,what's funny is that's not even dark,
but it's an excellent tan compared tomy normal, like you know, level
of transparency that my skin operates off, Like you cannot see through my skin
right now. It's pretty solid,you know. So I did actually go
outside, and it was hot andyou had to drink a lot of water

(02:43):
and use a lot of sunscreen.So I made the use of it even
even though it was like terribly hot. But but I was always kind of
mostly inside by the time the peakof the day hit, which may surprise
a lot of people if you're notfrom Texas, because the peak of the
day is often around that new andone o'clock time, and that's not the
truth here right, it's three fouro'clock. They were like, you run

(03:06):
inside, Yes, the sun iscoming, you know, like, ah,
well, yeah, the sun hasn'ttried to kill us yet, but
it's gonna. It's gonna. Solike that's when you have to come by
and size. I actually gave ussome good morning and early afternoon time to
be outside. But that was niceto run inside and just do nothing,
right, that's fair, and likewatch TV, that's right, or cesta

(03:29):
or you know, or read abook or oh I did read books?
You did? I ended up playinga video game instead, because they're a
Pigman four came out for the switchand I've been a little bit obsessed.
It's great. I love it.It's so cute. Well, we also
watched TV, that's right, andso yeah, things to talk about.

(03:51):
Yes, Cleo Season one, Episodeone, Big Eden on Netflix. It's
good. It is good. It'sit's German. But it is overdubbed in
English, so you but you haveto know where to go. So if
you if you're watching any any ofthe platforms that are streaming, if you're

(04:13):
watching something and it comes up withsubtitles and you hear it in the original
language, that's great. That's anabsolutely perfectly fine way to watch whatever.
Always go to where the little clothescaptioning is and just see if there's another
language. Yeah, because this wasoverdubbed excellently. Well yeah, and they

(04:34):
I mean, it's kind of amazing, how well this is a whole art
is this whole overdubbed? And Netflixis good at it. They are because
I used to watch the one percentor three percent, three percent, and
their overdubbed was so good. Thevoice casting, I would absolutely believe it

(04:56):
if you told me all the actorsjust came in and redid it in English.
Yeah, because it sounds like theylook yes, perfect, yes,
And they'll make sure that the dialogueand whatever language that they're dubbing it into,
you don't hear a lot of textafter they stopped talking. Yeah,
it's amazing. Yeah, like theyfit the they fit the dialogue to the

(05:20):
link at which the actor is speaking, so they may need to change it
around a little bit. Yeah,which is actually kind of fun. Like
when I watched squid Game, okay, so I had on the closed captioning
okay, but I also had theover dub on seeing they sometimes said things

(05:43):
differently than were in the closed captioning, and you kind of got a little
more out of it. Which oneis a little more out of which one,
well out of both, because yougot they said one thing verbally and
then in the closed captioning you wouldsee something different, which is probably closer
to the Korean yeah, the HangulYeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay,

(06:06):
So like did you find that ittold the story a little differently or
did like having one kind of addcontext? I think they kind of added
context because they would say the samethings. They would say basically the same
stuff, but you would sometimes youwould get a little bit longer if the
words they were speaking were lasted longer. Sometimes you would get more oral and

(06:30):
sometimes you'd get more in the text. That's interesting, and it was really
it was really interesting to see howdifferent they were because you know, English,
especially an intention driven language, right, we can make a lot out
of very few words, and sometimeswe can just strip the meaning off of
the words, like it didn't evenhave one to begin with. It's really
bananas to me. Yeah, butit was interesting. Cool. But cleo,

(06:56):
man, you know, watch outbecause those jerks will disavow you even
if you are their granddaughter, Imean, right, And they really should
have known better than to mess witha lethal Stasi secret agent. I mean
seriously, I mean, I mean, I don't know why they think they

(07:17):
can get away with it, youknow what I mean. But then it
makes you think because they thought shewas going to be in prison forever,
well that too they probably should haveknown better there too. But it's interesting
because like there are real life spiesall right, Like yeah, but that's
interesting because when this stuff happens,there are people out there and they have
to like trust that they can youknow, disavow these individuals and they're not

(07:45):
going to come after them. Andit makes me wonder how often this is
happening. I mean, we've seenmission impossible. Right. Well, but
see Cleo was not informed that theymight disavow her status. She thought she
had some protection. That's true.That's true. I don't know how Yes,

(08:05):
that's true. I mean it's impossible. They're very very clear about that.
That's right. If you get caughtins you, we are letting you
go, right, So, Imean that's true. Maybe that's a lesson
they learn from stories like this.Maybe perhaps all right, let's talk about
this cast. Okay, it'd berelatively brief. Yeah, because they're mostly

(08:28):
all German actors, then we don'tsee many other places. But Jella hasa
is Cleo. She works almost exclusivelyin German shows and movies, and she
worked in the theater as a child, began really working in Earnest in two
thousand and nine at just seventeen yearsold. An Arrest does the English voiceover

(08:52):
for Okay, and she's done voiceoverwork for video games and other shows,
and is an actor her own right. On British television. Dmitri Shad is
spend the want to be homicide detectiveAgain. Much of his work is in
German television, but he was inan episode of Killing Eve season three.

(09:16):
Nice. Yeah. Stephen Campbell Mooredoes the voiceover for Spen. He's been
working on British television for over twentyyears and since his bio on IMDb mentioned
it. He's married to Claire Foy. Oh yeah, who was Queen Elizabeth
the Second Yeah. I wouldn't havementioned it if it didn't mention it in

(09:39):
his IMDb because you shouldn't have tobe only known in your profession because of
your spouse. Yeah, but itdefinitely happens. Yeah, you're again.
Heinrich is autostrab Cleo's grandfather and highup in the State Security Service. I'm

(10:00):
and he's probably a pretty familiar faceto German audiences because he has been working
in German television since nineteen sixties.Wow, a long long time. And
Rupert vin Start does the voiceover forOtto. And if he sounds familiar,
it's because he's been in many,many things since the mid eighties, including

(10:22):
thirteen episodes a Game of Thrones.Oh yeah, yeah he was Yon Royce.
Oh okay, very cool, Alright, Royce anyways. Okay, stay
focused, Jackie, stay focused alright? So recap Okay. So we see
the divide between East and West Germanyover the Berlin Wall of the late nineteen
eighties. East Germany is stark andquiet. West Germany is bright and live

(10:48):
with nightlife. Cleo uses an undergroundtunnel to slip to the colorful side,
not to escape what looks like ableak place, but to advance the ideals
of Germany. This is a triumphfor the spy, one which will bring
her COVID career as a spy toan end because she is pregnant and ready

(11:11):
to sell down. Before she cando that, Cleo is framed for a
crime that not only did she notcommit, but was fabricated in order to
conceal her secret spy status. Evenher beloved grandfather, who raised her,
and it's a high up at theMinistry for State Security commonly known as the
Stasi, refuses to protect her.As a political prisoner in the German Democratic

(11:37):
Republic, Cleo has nothing but timeto plan her revenge on those who imprisoned
her. When the Berlin Wall falls, all East German political prisoners are released,
and with that comes Cleo's chance foranswers and vengeance. Okay, So,
Jella Haza, the actress who playedCleo. She seems like a German

(12:01):
version of Elizabeth Moss to me,Okay, I see that all the all
the I'm like, if they didthis in English, it would have been
Elizabeth Moss. Yeah, yeah,I can see that, like totally.
Yeah, she has that quality.Yes, you know, the heavy stare.
Yeah, like the you know,it's like it's like heavy and like

(12:22):
on you, and and she canmove so slowly to observe. Oh it's
around her. Yeah, it's supercool. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly
what it is. I couldn't quiteput my finger on it, but I'm
like, they kind of look alittle alike, but not enough for that
to be it. You're right,it's the stair. It's the stair.

(12:43):
I don't know because as soon asyou said it, I never thought about
it. But when you said it, I just pictured Cleo doing the look
around thing. Yep. Yeah.Yeah. So Chella has a shared with
News her thoughts about the character.Cleo is more of an anti Heroo.

(13:03):
She's too fragile, too flawed,too longing, too loving to be a
real villain. I'm like, oh, she's a real villain, but this
is you know, her internal work. She had to give Cleo some redeeming
qualities, which I yeah, Imean, okay, I mean I had
this whole thing has an account ofMonte Cristo thing going on. I'm all

(13:26):
right, literally what I'm going totalk about next? Oh yeah, I
love so much. So like Ican see why she feels it that way
because it's the it's the assi hero, because it's the revenge villain, right,
and the revenge villain is the vigilante. Yeah, and something about that
makes them feel like the good guywhen they're the bad guy. But they're

(13:48):
all bad guys, so I don'tknow, like it's hard ye, yes,
yeah. She also had this tosay, the character is very violent,
and I had to ask myself howI can justify this excess of violence
and her murders. Cleo is initiallyrobbed of the security of her life,
then the system she has lived in, and then the people around her.
She loses faith in life. Onher journey, she tries to regain her

(14:11):
dignity bit by bit, and thatis really it. She's trying to regain
her dignity yeah, So we're goingto get to that starting title card,
okay in just a minute. Okay, But the inspiration for Cleo's character very
much comes from Alexander Dumas's counter antiChristo wrongfully imprisoned, breaks out, seeks

(14:37):
revenge. There we go, Therewe go. It's so good. Okay,
but the movie is really good.The kannamnic chrisco Huh, Okay,
I've always liked the movie. Everseen it. It's really good. I
mean as far as it. Ilove the book and I totally enjoy the
movie. Yeah, So if youhaven't seen it, it's worth it.
If you haven't read it, it'sworth it. So you have your assignments.

(15:01):
And then the German name Cleo,so kl Eo is a name of
German origin, Okay, it meansglory and I kind of thought that that
made sense for an East German spy. It seems like glory would be something
that they would be searching for.Yes, yes, said that, total

(15:24):
sense? Yes, yeah. Interesting. All right, So we're going to
take a quick break and we'll beright back with is it true Psychology?
Break and real life after these messages. So here's how it works. Christie
erects her search history. Hey,an essay. We promise it's nothing more
nefarious than a podcast to find outwhat's true. Some of the psychological motivations

(15:48):
behind the character's actions and real lifeapplications that relate to our topic. I
have no idea what Christy decided tolook up. It could be the same
thing that captured my curiosity or something I never thought of. Is it
true? So let's talk about thatlittle disclaimer, the little title part.
Okay, this is a true story. None of it really happened. I

(16:15):
wily adore that. I mean,I think it's great. It's hilarious,
it's so funny, and but alsolike it's it's more informative than you realize.
Yes, because it's it's a reallya deep statement, right right,
this it's true, because what's trueis the truth, and the truth is

(16:37):
more than just the sequence of events, right right, Like getting your dignity
back being betrayed, wanting to,you know, establish your credibility and play
with the big boys in a societythat doesn't want you playing with the big
boys, and that there's conflict andfamily conflicts and all of this stuff.
Like all these things, though they'resuch truth revealed. But this sequence of

(17:02):
events never happen, right, Andthat's exactly it. Hi TC had an
article all about this that you know, it's not factual, but the background
information is very much factual. Sonot only are these the life events and

(17:22):
life experiences factual in that you canunderstand their meaning, you can also understand
that the things surrounding it were real. The Stasi was real, The Minister's
Special Issues Task Force really existed.The whole creative team had manuals from East

(17:45):
Germany and different documents to reference inorder to be able to make this as
accurate as they could while still maintaininga fictional story in which it happens.
So it's pretty amazing. The worldis real even if the events aren't real,
and they did a fabulous job.They really did. I really it

(18:07):
felt real, and I realized howa few things I've ever seen in this
time period in Germany right, LikeI only sort of vaguely remember the Berlin
Wall falling, like I mean,I was like almost a teenager when it
came down, and you know,the Iron curtain fell, and I understood

(18:30):
it was a big deal. ButI and I remember looking at maps you
know, like learning geography and seeingEast and West Germany and knowing that they
were separate and now they no longerwould be. Yeah, and I remember
watching TV and seeing clips of peoplecoming and and doing it themselves, like
tearing down the wall in their backyard. Yeah, like there was some interesting

(18:53):
news clips of like neighbors tearing downthe wall that separated them. Yeah,
you know this kind of thing.But yeah, it's it's still vague.
Well, sure, it's kind oflike a Chernobyl. Like I didn't realize
I was alive when the events ofChernobyl happened. I watched the show.

(19:14):
Yeah, I thought that was likelike like it was like I thought it
was like in the fifties or sixties. Yeah, and I'm like, I
was alive for this. How didI not know about this? No,
it's just because well because they didn'twant you to know about it. They
are very good at that, rightright. But it is when you see
like clips of Chernobyl, it lookslike something out of Indiana Jones in the

(19:37):
Yeah, you know, getting afridge, hide yourself in a fridge.
Sorry if you don't know a sceneI'm talking about, it's okay, Just
you know, what send us aDM We'll send you a clip. Yeah,
for sure. Also, go seethe new Indiana Jones movie is very
fun. It was super fun.I really I really enjoyed it me too,
I love it. If you likeIndiana Jones, if you've liked the

(20:00):
other movies, you will like thismovie. It is the same formula,
for lack of a better way oftalking about it, but with a different
story. And you know what,if you didn't like the very last one
that came out Aliens, and yes, if you didn't like that one,
you will still like this one.Yes, yes, because they basically ignored
that that one ever happened. Basically, I mean kind of. There's still

(20:22):
like little little threads, but barely. Yeah. So the Stasi, okay,
the firm, the Ministry for StateSecurity, the State Security Surface.
These are all names for the realsurveillance organization that was in East Germany.
Yeah, it was. If thistells you anything, it was modeled after

(20:45):
the KGB. Well yeah, Imean, yep, exactly. Yeah,
And it started out as a prettysmall organization and then Irish Milka had a
long tenure as director of the organizationthirty two years. He was like the

(21:11):
j Edgar Hoover was for the FBI, Like he transformed the Stas into what
it became, and his goal wasto infiltrate every institution of society and every
aspect of daily life for East Germanpeople. Wow. According to Britannica,

(21:36):
Wow yeah, I mean, Imean they had files on over six million
East German citizens. Over a thirdof the population had a file. I
mean in like starting by nineteen eightynine. This was in the everything was

(22:00):
paper. Everything was paper, well, well not everything, because I really
started lately in the sixties doing digitalrecord keeping. But East Germany. It
was in East Germany. They wouldnot have spent the money for IBM to
come in and do that, soI can I mean, like, yeah,

(22:22):
I wouldn't have spread there yet,right, I mean, they wouldn't
have. No. It makes mewonder they're secret police. What do we
not know? Oh, well,we know a lot because the Stasi records
are now open to the public,right like in twenty fifteen. I think

(22:44):
it's what I read. I don'thave my information exactly, but I'm pretty
sure in twenty fifteen they opened upall of those records for everybody, and
you can search on the internet.Of the records to see if they have
one. I looked at them.Okay, I'm having a moment. Do
you remember Men in High Castle?Yeah? All right, And it was
all about the films. The films, Yeah, shut up about the stupid

(23:07):
films. Yes, but it wasall about the films, these films that
were like well anyways, these filmsthere were actual film right, like on
a reel. Right, that's whatthat's what data was on right back in
the day. Yeah. So likeif you had a supercomputer, the data
would look like a film reel,right, and all of a sudden,

(23:30):
oh, connecting some dots. Oh. Interesting that the films, as they
saw it, actually had more informationwas the thing that was It was hiding
in plain sight that that's why theywere after the films, not because it
was really about jumping worlds sorry spoilersor you know, multiverses or different endings,

(23:52):
but because on those was the storyof everyone. Boy, they kind
have liked done a little more exposible, made that show a lot better,
or they could have done anything tome. Let's started off so gold gosh,
the first like the first season isreally good, yes, and then

(24:12):
it all fell apart in the factthat they shot at about the film constantly.
Oh, the films. I didn'tcare anymore. Yeah, I did
not care about the films anymore.And it was like the central piece of
it. Anyway. It's just sofunny because we're talking about that and I'm
talking about these computers and I'm like, oh my gosh, like what if
that's what they were trying to do. And then the writers got like over

(24:33):
ruled and that's why the Ross Showstucks. I don't know, maybe writers,
come back, we love you,Yes, yes, Strake can end
anything now. Yeah, okay,moving on. Sorry, No, it's
fine. So they had a foreignespionage element, which is what Cleo was
a part of it, but itwas almost entirely focused on West Germany.

(25:00):
Okay, yeah, so it wasn'tlike global. It seemed like their ultimate
goal was global domination, and yetthey were very focused just on West Germany.
It was interesting. Each was formerlydisbanded in nineteen ninety, shortly after
the fall of the Berlin Wall Februaryof nineteen ninety, but in January of

(25:23):
nineteen ninety, the East German peopleflooded the headquarters of the Stasse to prevent
them from destroying the records. Goodjob, well done, yep, well
done. Yeah, yes, yeah, So the mission that gets Cleo noticed

(25:44):
in West Germany takes place at anightclub Eden. Big Eden was real.
Okay, it was a real nightclub. It was founded by playboy Rolf Eden
in nineteen sixty seven. Ok.It was a international hot spot throughout the
seventies, maybe a little less soin the eighties, but still like a
part of the nightlife. And itwas open until two thousand and six.

(26:07):
Oh cool, yeah, yeah itlooked fun. Yeah. Nightclubs always look
fun. Yeah, the discos,well, nightclubs and television shows always look
fun. They always look more funthan they are. I was just gonna
say, like, you get thereand you forget that when you're actually there,
especially if you're single. It's allthere's a lot of anxiety around it
all, especially as a woman,you know, like is anybody going to

(26:33):
take an interest to me? Issomebody gonna roofy my drink? You know?
I mean there's all these like orwhat if they play music I hate?
Or what if the floor is stickyand it will be it will be,
it will be the floor is stickinghuh. And it was actually pretty
well lit for a nightclub. Yeah, I had a good lighting of course,
you know, needing to have camerasin there. Yeah help, Yeah,

(26:56):
but yeah, no, I therewas very few true nightclubs I joyed
when I was younger, and thenthere were others I kept I went to,
and then it was always like ohyeah, such a pain. You
know, it's not fun. Butthere was one in Georgia that was really
fun and they did have full nightand it was a lot of fun.
But and they had because they hada sunken dance floor in the middle oh
night, sood night. I wasfreaking like bath night. I mean it

(27:19):
was like they were like, we'regonna make this floor not sticky, Oh
my gosh, and everybody's gonna havea whole lot of fun. They hoosed
you off when you walked outside.Yeah, it was really fun. I
mean they just had they did itwell. And there was a few others,
but like in general, like yeah, you go and then you're like,
Okay, I don't know, theother people party all night long,
it seems, but I don't know, maybe it's just not my scene.

(27:42):
Maybe not. I mean I enjoyit dancing obviously, like so I so
maybe that's why. I enjoyed severalof them for longer, but I definitely
wasn't a close it down. Ialways ended up at waffle house in due
time. Okay, yeah, youknow enough of this. Well, in
back then, they let people smokein there, so they have been part

(28:04):
of a problem. Yeah actually yeah, yeah, was that it got so
smoky? Yeah yeah. And barslike bars like dive bars that were really
fun, but you couldn't breathe inthem. Right, That has been the
most fun because I'd so far enjoygoing to like dive bars and small clubs
now right because it is clean inthere, and it's like all right,

(28:25):
I mean the floor is still sticky, but you could breathe, you know,
yes, yea, all right.So I wondered what the substance was
that could substitute for a cocaine butcause such terrible reaction as Cleo's victim suffered.
Yeah, it was horrific, butalso like kind of fun to watch.

(28:49):
So my guess is that it's strycknine. Okay, I think that's
a really good guest. I meanthey never specified what it was, but
I was like, what could dothis? So it's better known as rat
poison, Yes, I don't knowwhat strychnine is. You can buy it
pretty much anywhere, which makes itubiquitous but also like super dangerous. But

(29:12):
it's white, odorless, bitter crystallinematerial, and you can cut that right
in or just replace it entirely.You might not even notice it first,
and it can be very dangerous ifit's inhaled. You only need a small
amount to be able to have apretty severe reaction in humans. Mostly what

(29:34):
it'll do is it'll cause severe spasmsand as the muscles tire, then you
stop breathing. Okay, so itcan cause bleeding, but that's not the
main symptom. I think they ampthat up a little bit. Strychnine itself,
the poisoning itself isn't likely to causelong term health effects, but it's

(29:57):
your body's reaction to it, soyou're deprived of oxygen. Yeah, so
it can cause kidney failure and thingslike that, but that's not from Strict
nine. It's from the effects ofthe Strict nine. Okay, y,
yeah, my my guess had beenricon. Oh okay, because you see,

(30:18):
you need so little of it andyou don't even have to replace the
material, right because it's just asmall drop, yeah, but like hardly.
Yeah, I don't know. Butwell, according to Breaking Bad,
right, so yeah, ricin wouldn'thave quite that quick of an effect because

(30:40):
Walter White killed somebody with right ricat the very end and it was she
had flu like symptoms. Yeah,it came slowly. Yeah, it was
over like twelve to twenty four hours. That's right. So I don't I
don't know that it would be rice, and that's why I didn't go looking
for rice. And that's interesting.But I know that it's used in a
lot a little assassinations realize it andthey're like trying to get to the hospital.

(31:04):
Are there different types? Oh,I don't know. Maybe I don't
know. I don't know, WalterWalter tell us more so, the according
to rat Trap Incorporated, it wouldtake probably fifteen or twenty minutes okay for
the strict nine for the strict nineto how much of an effect? So

(31:27):
maybe amplified maybe amplified. Yeah,okay, so I had to I had
to do a little research. Okay, Yeah, you're right, there's not
I don't think there's different kinds.And I remember that episode of Breaking Bad
and this from Emergency CDC dot GOVsays rice in is early symptoms as early

(31:48):
as four to eight hours, aslate as twenty four okay, typically ten
okay, oh yeah, okay tenhours, so okay, all right,
okay, interesting, Well there yougo for your situational there okay, so
strychnine probably probably there was thelo thesweet junkie who took over Cleo's apartment after

(32:13):
the fall of the Berlin Wall,but before she was released from prison.
And Cleo holds a gun to hishead in the middle of his forehead,
and he's so just like innocently andhilariously says that that's where his friend drilled
a hole like for the third eye. He's so high, it's so high

(32:36):
that he's absolutely unbothered by the factthat she's holding a gun to his head
and he realizes that's where the thirdeye is. That's when she realizes that
he's She's like, he's not athreat. Yeah, he's armless. So
third eye. Okay, I can'teven amounts where you were going. It's
a real thing. It's called autotrepidation, the act of drilling a hole

(33:01):
into your own skull. What there'sa drilling part is real. Yes,
I'm floored. No, hold on, I gotta process this. I'm sorry,
I mean, not on the botomy. No, it's different than that.
We drill into the They drillly didthat. Okay, you're ready.

(33:21):
I'm ready to hear the rest.Okay, Okay. So Fiss has an
article I drilled a hole into myown skull to stay high forever. It
makes you stay high forever. Okay, we'll get to that. I'm like,
say more quickly. Okay. SoJoe Melon in nineteen seventy Melan Joe

(33:47):
Melan Miller, he put a holein his own melan. Yep, he
wrote a book called Bore Hole.It's not even as witty as his name.
No, it's not. Okay,I'm back, are you now?
I don't think you are. You'renot. You're like giant. Yeah.

(34:12):
So he wrote this whole book abouthis journey towards auto trepination. Okay,
it took him three tricks. SoGod, maybe he should have enlisted help.
Well, it's illegal in most places. Yeah, so he probably couldn't
really get help, and so hedid it himself. Well, that brings

(34:37):
up a whole nother host issues rightnow. I mean, it's just like
it's a whole thing. This articleis fascinating. The puns are out of
this world. Yeah, okay.According to Joe Okay, Joe Melan,
Joe Melan, it's the oldest operationin the world and has been done on

(34:59):
every continent. Trepan skulls and inkand tombs were probably a part of the
initiation to a priest cast so likealmost all the priests in Incan times had
this third eye hole in their head. Okay, Yeah, And he said

(35:19):
it isn't a great high, itjust restores you to that youthful level of
vitality. He's something about blood flowand which I'm like, wow, that's
a lot we're gonna have to Butit's illegal most most places. Because I
kind of feel like, I mean, I hate to say this, but
not why hands off, hands offpeople are gonna do what they're gonna do.

(35:45):
It seems like it would be saferand healthier to be able to go
yeah, to be able to goto a doctor and have it done in
a sterile vittles I mean, butI mean, and I could see them
regulating like if you do this,you don't maybe qualify for certain things.
Yeah, I don't know, likemaybe to say like we we just can't

(36:06):
protect you, you know, likeswim at your own risk, drill at
your own risks. Yeah, right, Like I don't know, I'm just
rainstorming. But it just sounds interestingwhy that they had something happened that made
them make it illegal, right,you know, because that's where rules come
from. Somebody did it, butpeople did it, but something happened.

(36:28):
That's interesting. Probably people did itto themselves and either lost their mind or
went too deeper and died. Yeah, and then died, and so people
made it. But it was abig enough problem. That's very interesting.
Yeah. And he does say don'tdo it to yourself. Oh, he
doesn't advise that any longer. Well, at least in twenty sixteen, he

(36:49):
was still alive and still felt likeit was helpful, helpful. He still
felt more youthful. Does the wholego all the way through this? Oh?
Yes, Oh all the way throughthat's the only way it works,
Okay, spec if it goes allthe way through way it works. I
don't know if it works. It'snot get ill, he said. He

(37:10):
did like he took a great painsto make sure that he was being very
clean about everything. That as muchas possible. Everything was sterilized. But
that means he still has an openhole. Well, it grew over,
I guess, but the skull doesn't. That's the point, right, Yeah,
but I mean the skin grows over. The skin grows over. We

(37:36):
could stay here all day. It'sa whole thing. Yeah, okay,
yeah, I don't understand it.Maybe I would understand it if I had
a don I don't know. Maybethere's a YouTube video that's that's a level
of YouTube. I'm not ready becauseyou know what comes next, bunch of
four chan crap. That's that's howthe algorithm. Right now, my algorithm

(38:00):
feeds me true crime and prints videoson YouTube. This is I mean,
the things that I watch on YouTubeare for my podcast. These are the
things that we watch. I'm notgoing to the We need we needed to
trepidation. We need another account sowe can go find these things, all

(38:21):
right. So Otto claims that hehad no choice but to turn in his
granddaughter Cleo superiors ordiners. I'm like, is that a legitimate defense? Well
not according to the Nuremberg trials,But historians dot org as a whole article

(38:44):
about our superior's orders a legitimate defense, and that's basically saying that people who
committed heinous ax or illegal acts didn'tdo it of their own free will,
they were ordered to do so.Right. So, for what it's worth,
the US didn't recognize this at alluntil nineteen fourteen, and that you

(39:07):
could be court martialed if you followedan order that was unlawful. Right,
It wasn't until early nineteen hundreds thatthey made any kind of change and recognize
that. But that puts soldiers ofany type in a really tough spot because
you don't really understand maybe what thecivilized warfare rules are. There are certain

(39:31):
rules that we're all supposed to followin civilized warfare so that you don't commit
crimes against humanity, but your averagesoldier may not really know that. And
part of the training for your averagesoldier is follow orders immediately obey them right

(39:52):
away because otherwise people die. Peopledie. Yeah, but sometimes that might
mean you don't have the time orthe ability to determine whether that's a lawful
order to start with. Yeah,it's sticky. So I thought they have
a bunch of different views, theAmerican view, the English view, the

(40:12):
German view. Interesting. Let's see, there was the case in particular that
they cited here was submarine officers,okay, who were ordered to sink the
lifeboats. And so they were saying, we were just following orders. We
didn't know it was wrong, right. So the German Supreme Court said this

(40:37):
military subordinates are under no obligation toquestion the order of their superior officers,
and they can count upon its legality, but no such confidence can be held
to exist. If such an orderis universally known to everybody to be without
any doubt whatever against the law,they should have their four refused to obey.

(41:01):
So they're kind of talking about bothsides. They are like, you
should you should expect every order youget is legal. Yeah, but if
it's absolutely not legal, you shouldn'tdo it. Yeah. That's that's called
disavowal. You get caught, you'reon your own. Yeah. But also
you better do it so don't getcaught, right, you know. So

(41:22):
I saw a word, Hold on, hold on, I saw a word.
You had your article open and Isaw a word. What what case
was this? Oh? Land avery castle, the castle, the high
Castle. Oh my gosh, I'mhaving fun. It's say today. I
just thought that was funny, Okay, Yeah, that's that's interesting. I

(41:46):
they really it is that disavowal thing, like you absolutely must do it.
Uh huh and yet and you sufferterrible m h. I am not cut
out for military service and for manyreasons I am not and never was.

(42:07):
Well, maybe not frontline like that, maybe not. Maybe that's not your
place. Yeah, none of it. But desk work organizing. Please,
there's plenty of places you could doa fantastic job. Air Force personnel needs
you. Not anymore. I'm tooold now, we are. I don't
want anymore. All of the sourcesthat we use to inform our discussion here

(42:30):
on Killer Fund Podcast can be foundon our social media. Join us on
Facebook at killer Fund Podcast, exploringthe intersection of crime and entertainment. You
can find us on Twitter at killerfund pod, or you can send us
an email at killer fund Podcast atgmail dot com, and I'd be happy
to share a link to whatever informationyou're looking for. We love to hear

(42:52):
from you. We might learn alittle something too. Psychology break kiss.
All right, So Cleo clearly lovedher grandfather who raised her, but she
kind of had to seek disapproval toearn his love. Yeah, so I
wanted to talk a little bit aboutthat. The New York Times had an

(43:15):
article This is a fairly old onefrom two thousand and nine, but it
still applies. All of these thingsor that they're talking about were things that
happened. People learned from people likePhil McGraw, Doctor Phil, and Joe
Frost of Supernanny that the way toget obedience from your children was to withhold

(43:42):
things they needed until they quote unquoteacted right. So you didn't give them
love or approval or encouragement unless theywere behaving in the way that you wanted
them too. Yeah. This wasvery, very common. This is I
would say most of us probably grewup like this. Yeah, I mean

(44:07):
at least in some respects. Well, yeah, in some respects. Yeah,
in some respects, especially when itcame into praise or like that.
Right, maybe not love, approvaland praise, but maybe not love.
Yeah. Well, and like doctorPhil and Supernanny and both suggested, I
mean, affection of any kind wasnot to be given unless they were behaving

(44:30):
appropriately. Yeah, and that's reallynot so great. So what it does
is it teaches children that they're onlylovable if they're acting right, right,
Yeah, if they're people pleasers ifthey're right, and by acting right we
mean pleasing the parents right. Andthe way to get your parents love is

(44:52):
to behave. So in two thousandand four, some researchers did a study
and they asked a little over ahundred college students, fairly small sample,
whether the love that they received fromtheir parents was conditional on sort of thing,
some sort of things that they couldmeasure, like their success in school,

(45:17):
or how hard they practiced for sports, how they suppressed emotions, you
know, did they never show angeror fear? Those those were things that
were rewarded, and so they turned. It turned out that when they talked
to those students, the ones thatreceived conditional approval did act the way their

(45:39):
parents wanted, but the compliance wasat a steep price. Okay, so
they tended to resent and dislike theirparents. They felt like they didn't have
a lot of agency over their choice. They didn't really have a choice.
It put in them at internal pressureto behave in a certain way that they

(46:05):
would often feel guilty or ashamed,and when they did accomplish something that the
satisfaction from that was fairly short lived. And then they interviewed mother's a companion
study who had been raised in thisway that they were only loved when they
lived up to their parents' expectations.They felt less worthy as adults, and

(46:29):
yet because that was the only modelthat they had for raising children, they
tended to do that to their childrenas well. So basically, conditional parenting
counter productive for what you really want. And then Albert Bandura is the father
of the branch of psychology known asthe social learning theory, which you're nodding

(46:52):
your head. I'm like Jackie willknow what this is. He declared that
unconditional love would make children directionless andquite unlovable. That what say that?
Again, he's basically the wrong way, that unconditional love would make children directionalists
and quite unlovable. So, butwhat he's saying is unconditional love is no

(47:19):
discipline, and that's not helpful either. He kind of comes to this.
I think maybe he was looking atit from a I'm gonna I'm gonna love
you no matter what, no matterwhat you do, and everything you do
is great, and you know,no direction, no sort of uh,
you know, it's hard to knowwhat to use thinking. I don't know,
but he's right. Social learning theoryis not a necessarily a parental strategy,

(47:45):
so you know, but so he'syou know, it's interesting to hear
him say that, Yeah, notso great. That's the thing you're we're
conflating all of the concepts right between. Like you said, look, love,
unconditional love meaning no boundaries, noright, no, you know,

(48:07):
discipline or mentoring or teaching or anythinglike that. And it's hard because you
do have as kids though, thatfear, the fear of the discipline makes
them feel like they're unloved, eventhough they might be loved and right.
You have to unravel that for yourkid as they grow up. While and
that's just it, because they needto feel loved and secure, but also

(48:29):
understand that there's certain ways to behaveand now. So in practice, the
way you can do that is bygiving them autonomy support. So if you
ask them to do something, tellthem why you're asking them to do it.
You give them as many opportunities asyou are able to help them make

(48:49):
decisions. Now this starts. Youcan start this small. When they're really
lott people really can Would you liketo wear this or this? These are
two different outfits that are both appropriatefor whatever activity. Or whether is happening
that day. You give the kida choice and they feel like they have
agency over it, so yes,because they It is hard. It's sad

(49:12):
because kids don't have agency. They'rechildren, But we have to teach them
what agency is, yes, right, and so we have to give those
choices so that we model it rightso that they can learn how to use
agency as they grow up, becausethey naturally do feel agency, but as
children they're helpless right away. Soyou know, it is it is hard.

(49:34):
You have to model these choices beforethey actually have to make a choice
right early. Yeah. Well,and you want to create an environment where
they can tell you if there's somethingin their life that they haven't made a
choice about it, it just isthat they can come out and tell it.
They can tell you. So yeah, yeah, it is hard.

(49:54):
But you know it's hard because alot of parents who are on the go
and maybe working really hard and theydon't have that time in the morning.
Uh huh, right, they don'thave And it's not because they love their
kids any less, no, butit's because they don't. They don't as
adults have agency, they have agency, but they don't because it's a choice
that it's not a choice because youhave to work, you have to go,

(50:17):
you have to get them to school, you have to get to work,
you have to do the thing.And then you work all day and
you come home and you do thething. And it's so hard to keep
that space in your mind about howdo I wait for this small child to
make a choice on an outfit.I don't have time for that, right,
you know, And so incorporating thatin and unfortunately the mom very much

(50:39):
loves the child. The child feelsnow that the love is connected to obedience,
right, and that's a sad right, that's what has to be unraveled,
lady later to remind the child,no, it wasn't ever acted to
obedience right ever, but it feelsthat way, right, and you've learned
it that way, right, Andthen maybe habits performed so that the parent

(51:02):
learned the child only loves me whenthey're compliant, and now it's reversed,
yeah, because when the child's notcompliant, it makes you the mom feel
like I loved right because she grewup only getting love, or or just
because she has so much to dowell, she can't she can't in the

(51:22):
moment take it herself out of thesituation to deal with the non compliance,
to remind herself that this is justabout parenting. So anytime somebody's screaming at
you, you don't feel loved rightwell right, But so as a parent
you have to take yourself out ofthat mentally and be like, this is
not a mummy, right right,we have to do that. But the

(51:43):
kid can't do that, so youknow, and but if you, as
a mom don't do that, yougrow up like they're always screaming at me,
They're always throwing that hat's hat trump. They don't feel that lovey feeling
with their kid all the time becauseit's always a fight. Habits are born,
yeah, you know, all right. And the other thing in psychology
break is that spends coworker mentions thathe did a good job of not calling

(52:07):
a girl who broke his heart allday long, but then he called her
five times in the night because hewas drunk. I was like, why
do we drunk dial? What dowe do? Why do we do this?
So doctor Sean Heranne wrote an articlewhy do people drunk dial for psychology
today? Basically it lowers your inhibitionlevels, right, I mean, that's

(52:29):
the yeah, that part is likea little common jump, right, But
why we choose to dial these people? Okay? They identified five motives to
drunk dialing. Social lubricant is thatyou have more confidence, more courage.
You feel a little better about yourself, you can express yourself a little better.

(52:49):
And then you also feel a littleless accountable for your actions. So
there's one entertainment you thought it'd befun to talk to that person. Coordination.
You're drunk and you want to seesomebody you haven't seen in a long
time, so you call him upto find out where that what club you
at? Okay, I'm coming there? All right, all right, I
got you a good choice? Ornot if it's after one am. Nope,

(53:15):
no confession of emotion. You wantto call a friend or romantic interest
and tell them how much you loveand or miss them. Yeah, and
sexuality yell ante Luka, Okay,that makes sense. That's right. So
that's it. And they said,as much as you would like to attribute
it to one gender over another,uh, it is pretty universal all genders.

(53:40):
I would have guessed that everybody drunpedout yeah or text or yeah now
now, but it is funny.I think I've seen in friends where Rachel
is out with a date that she'sbeen set up with and uh, and
she's all mad about Ross now beingwith Julie, and so she barrow was
that guy's cell phone and the restaurantand I mean it's like this big honker

(54:04):
of a thing. And that's whatwe call clue dumpson in the wine thing.
Yeah, in the champagne killers.Like it felt so bad for that
guy. I'm like, she justput his expensive cell phone right in the
water. It's ruined and it's notbutterproof. Bring out the rice. I
don't even think we knew rice.Then. I think he was just going
to the whatever company. Real life. Okay, So we talked about how

(54:36):
the strychnine was probably the thing ithas been mistaken in the relatively recent past
for cocaine. Oh my god,Oh this is awful. La Times.
There was a boy in Fairy,northern California, in a city called Anderson,
and he went into his dad's garageand found a bottle on a high

(54:58):
shelf and thought it was cocaine andit was not. It was Strict nine.
And he gave it to three ofhis friends and they snorted it and
one of the sixteen year olds dine. Oh and it was awful. They
were like, he was not beingmalicious, he was just made a poor
choice. So wait, hold onnow, hey, he told his friends

(55:22):
he could get a hold of somecocaine. But this boy thought that a
bottle up on the shelf was wascocaine because something about it showed a white
powder. Am I right? Becausehe's fourteen? Yeah, but it wasn't
labeled. This father or mother orfamily had a bottle of Strict nine.

(55:43):
It wasn't labeled as poison. Look, I'm mad my actions. Let me
see. Yeah, it was unmarked. He should have at least had to
scull and crossbones at the very least. So it's happened, Oh my god.
Yeah, but he didn't die likein fifteen seconds like in the show

(56:05):
Kid, Poor Kid. Oh soCleo was a political prisoner, which was
super common in East Germany. Ican believe that. Yeah. Dw dot
com, which I believe is aDeutsche Welle, which is a global media.
There was a man in nineteen eightyone who was sentenced to eight and

(56:27):
a half years for inciting hatred againstthe state. Okay, as a political
prisoner. What he did was hetold political jokes to friends and at a
bar eight and a half years that'sawful. This was very much done.
There was a number of reasons whyit was done. I'm going to talk

(56:49):
about one and I'm going to talkabout another with the next article. But
it was pretty lucrative for East Germanyto do this because East Germany would jail
people and tell West Germany that theycould have those people out of jail,
even though they were East German citizens. They would basically ransom them to West

(57:09):
Germany. Whoa if West Germany paidthe money, they would send them over
there. Wow. And West Germanysent a lot of money to East Germany
to get people out. Yeah,So if you wanted to get out of
East Germany. Well that's how alot of why a lot of people political
prisoners were in jails because they weretrying to escape. They were trying to

(57:31):
get there so that the state wouldransom them right out too. No,
they weren't trying to get they werejust trying to get to West Germany.
That's what I mean. Yeah,Yeah, that's what I mean. Like
I mean, if you were tryingto get out, okay, but that
was never the they were never tryingto go to prison to get ransomed out

(57:52):
because you weren't sure how quickly orif it would happen. Right, So
it was if your ultimate goal isto get there, that you may end
up there. Really what you're tryingto do is sneak across the wall.
Well yeah, of course, butlike I mean, if you were for
lack of a better option, right, like if you were thinking, I
mean, I could see people makingthe mistake of thinking, I'm gonna get

(58:15):
myself arrested and then yeah, they'lljust shoot me over right, Like I
could see that becoming like a likea misinformation of what was happening. I
guess you know what I'm saying.Well, probably not, because Cleo was
actually pretty lucky because political prisoners weretreated very poorly and were put into forced

(58:39):
labor situations. So okay, anotherarticle from Deutsche Welle. It was part
of their economy was to have peoplein prison, okay, yeah, because
they would force them to do work. And political prisoners were called forced labor
because they were imprisoned illegal basically,for they were imprisoned in ways that were

(59:02):
not for too long and too severepunishment for their yeah labor camp, Yes,
So between nineteen forty nine and nineteeneighty nine, somewhere in the neighborhood
of two hundred and fifty to threehundred thousand East German citizens were political prisoners.
That's so sad. Yeah, gosh. It was literally to make up

(59:27):
for labor shortages. They couldn't theycouldn't get enough people from North Vietnam to
come over and East German citizens tocome and do the things, so they
would force all prisoners were forced towork almost entirely, and the political prisoners
would have to do the worst jobs. They would work the overnight shifts,

(59:52):
they would do the most dangerous jobs, the jobs that other people didn't want
to do. There it was verystrict about what they did. It was
absolutely a punishment. Yeah, Andit wasn't just the Stasi who reported on
citizens. So Spiegel, which isa German magazine I believe, had an

(01:00:19):
article from twenty fifteen. East Germandomestic surveillance went far beyond the Stas.
So Edward Richter, a professor atthe University of Goode's fault, everyone who
was in a position with some measureof responsibility filed reports for the state,
like everybody eavesdropping on your neighbors wasnormal even without pressure from the stas.

(01:00:44):
There was no like, hey,we need you to inform on them,
or we're going to do something toyou. It was just people listening to
one another and like, oh,that sounds like they can get in trouble
for that. I think I'll getthem in trouble. Yeah, because they
probably garnered themselves some credit of sortby being loyal and turning people in and

(01:01:05):
kind of creating their own network ofI mean not even network, but like
just to say like I'm a goodcitizen. Yeah. Ish, Because the
reports didn't even have to go directlyto the stasis, so there was enough
people who would wanted to inform butdidn't want to be on the STASS radar,
so they would tell like a localpolitical reader leader or a factory manager

(01:01:30):
or something like that they can havea fairly informal conversation and report on their
neighbors without being in the stass.Yeah. Yeah, it was been good.
So apartment buildings almost always had asuperintendent who kept track of who visited
whom and when, Okay, likeeverybody's coming and going. School directors,

(01:01:51):
heads of youth organization, election helpers, factory heads. They all reported,
they all had some men of authorities, so they were reporting on people they
would like for the school children,they wears Western clothes, likes punk music,
has pacifist attitudes. These were thekinds of things they would report on

(01:02:15):
children. And like even the churches, they would have people who would report
whether the pastors were preaching anything thatmight be construed as positive or negative about
the GDRs leadership, and if therewas any kind of strife within their organization

(01:02:38):
whatsoever. All of it this wasinteresting. Historians point to this finely woven
web of surveillance as an explanation forEast Germany's surprising stability. It fueled the
most important disciplinary mechanism, self censorship. So people didn't know who they could

(01:02:59):
trust, so they just didn't sayanything. Yeah, that's why it lasted
so long. Yeah, I know, it's awful. Gosh, they're a
boy. Yeah, I'm gonna wow, Yeah, I have things to say
that I'm not gonna say. Nope, we're not gonna say that. We're
gonna we're self censory. But it'snot helpful and it's a long time ago,

(01:03:21):
and is at least in East Germanynot happening that we know if,
but let's end on a lighter note, okay, okay, So they have
a birthday party at the beginning nearthe beginning of the episode for Auto Cleo's
grandfather, they sing for He's ajolly good fellow over a bunch of deer

(01:03:42):
carcasses. But we're gonna skip overthat. So it's a popular song for
lots of different things, including birthdays, could be also promotions, weddings,
retirements, blah blah blah. Thetune dates back to the seventeen hundreds and
it was a French folk tune andMarie Antoinette heard one of her maids singing

(01:04:08):
it and she popularized it, andit made its way to the UK,
and by the mid eighteen hundreds wasin America as well, And by the
time it was popular in both theUK and the US had lyrics. Yeah,
okay, that's kind of where itcame from. But it was like

(01:04:29):
a little tune, yeah, AndI was like, well, is that
the only song that they sing forGerman birthdays? Is that a common song
to sing German birthdays? So thoughtCoA shares with us, no that the
happy Birthday song is the most popularGerman birthdays. This was interesting. It
should be noted that the English versionof the song is heard most often,

(01:04:54):
even at parties where everyone speaks German. Okay, it's more more popular to
hear it in English like English version, yes, okay. But there is
another song that sometimes sung a Germanbirthdays okay, and it's called how Nice
that You Were Born? Written innineteen eighty one by Ralf Zakowski. Oh

(01:05:15):
really interesting, Yeah, a fewlyrics. Today is your birthday. That's
why we're celebrating. All your friendsare happy for you. How nice that
you were born? We would havereally missed you otherwise. Oh that's sweet
and a little ridiculous. It feelsmore cheesy than our birthday song. It's

(01:05:40):
cute, harder to remember, butyeah, and I'm sure it is always
something you know a little bit right. It's probably yes. The sentiment of
it is probably yeah, all right, next time, next time. So
we started this podcast playing a game, and we're going to play a game

(01:06:02):
again. This has been a longtime. I'm so excited about this because
it's like a full turnabout. We'reabout to do something that we did exactly
the same game. Yeah, justa new iteration, well, a new
edition. Yes, so Hunt ofKiller is what we did, and they
have a subscription box that you cando. But now they have broadened since

(01:06:27):
we started this podcast, they havebroadened their horizons and they have games that
you can play in a single setting. And that is what we're gonna do.
We're gonna play a mystery at MagnoliaGardens next time. I'm so excited.
And what's really exciting is I'm gonnatell you we barely cover our costs
with the advertisements on this out wedid for fun. This is this is

(01:06:50):
a hobby that pays for itself.And Hunt of Killer contacted us and offered
us these games that we're going toplay. We're gonna pa I won,
and then in a few weeks we'llplay another one. I mean, shout
out Hunts Killer. We appreciate itbecause we launched with you. That's right
to be recognized back is really awesometoo. It really is thankful for the

(01:07:11):
opportunity. Yes, it feels reallygood, and we're gonna have a coupon
code for you, and the wholebusiness is very exciting. I feel like
we have arrived and away a littlebit. But next time, that's what
we're going to do. And ofcourse I'll have a little research for you.
Yeah, it's very, very funand it'll be a whole different kind
of format in a way. Yeah, so Hank tight, it's gonna be

(01:07:33):
fun well, and I may likeI may, we'll see. I'm going
to try and structure it in away because it tends to be maybe the
first part I'll be really structured,and then we play the game and record
it tight. It's hard. It'shard to know with the game because we
don't know where the game is goingto go, but I do. I
did open the game to make sureeverything was there, and like, I

(01:07:56):
didn't look at much, but Ilooked at a couple of things. So
so yeah, it's gonna be great. It is. So make sure you
tell a friend because it's way morefun when you can listen with a friend
to talk about it afterwards. It'smuch more enjoyable for everybody, and it
helps us get found if you rateand review, so to that as well,
especially if you can do a greatreview, that'd be really appreciated,

(01:08:18):
especially since the one star review thatsomebody who didn't like Banter, which I
don't even know why they bothered tolisten, but they bothered to take the
time to give us a negative review. Bury that, by it, Bury
It. I'm tired of it.Yeah. No, I don't want to
see anymore. No me either,So until next time, be safe,
be kind, and wash your handso